Today I'm going to talk to you a little bit more about this chapter 5 on the questions of Vishalamati. Let's see. So the bodhisattva asked the Buddha, how are bodhisattvas wise with respect to the secrets of mind, thought, and consciousness? So these three terms, mind, thought, and consciousness.

[01:18]

I guess I can do that. mind, thought, and consciousness. These English words can be put in correspondence with Sanskrit, probably original. Mind is boksitta, thought, manas, and consciousness, vijnana. Chinese, like this, pronounced like this. Chitta is written like this, pronounced like this. Shin, in Japanese, shin.

[02:26]

Chinese, or manas, is written like this. pronounced ee. Japanese is pronounced ee. And the Chinese way of writing consciousness is like this. Sure. And Japanese is pronounced In this chapter, citta, or mind, means are referring to the basis consciousness, or alaya vidyana, also called the appropriating consciousness, dana vidyana.

[04:01]

Storehouse consciousness, basis consciousness. Sometimes it's called basis of all. Pardon? Yeah, when they say mind consciousness and intellect in this chapter, in this sutra, mind means, citta means, alaya-vijnana. Now, before this sutra, we don't really see alaya-vijnana too much in the Buddhist tradition. This is sort of the origin of this teaching of the storehouse consciousness. So, in this... I don't know if it says specifically in the chapter, mind... is this basis consciousness. Does it say that? Does it? Anyway, you can understand that.

[05:12]

Yes? Doesn't Shin also need heart? This character also is translated as heart. In Chinese it means heart or mind. Kind of looks like a heart. It's got the different chambers there and stuff. So that's the basic structure of the language for the chapter. So I'm not recommending that you read this, but this sutra is a basis for lots of other teachings, and in particular the teachings of Vasubandhu and Asanga are very much... And back in 94, at Tatsahara, we spent practice periods studying the 30 verses of Vasubandhu. And also other times we studied 30 verses of Vasubandhu.

[06:13]

And then there's a commentary on the 30 verses of Vasubandhu. So... Hi, Doris. Congratulations. Yay! It's hard for her to get back in the country because Germany didn't support the attack of Iraq. So the immigration is punishing German people. There's no French people here, right? They'll never be able to get in the country. There was one last practice pair, Jacques. At the beginning of this 30 verses, the first verse, it says basically whatever occurs in terms of whatever ideas of self and element that prevail, they occur in the transformations of the consciousness.

[07:19]

The consciousness is threefold, namely the resultant, what is called mentation, and the concept of object. Whatever occurs in terms of ideas of self and others arise in the transformations of consciousness, which are threefold. The threefold transformations are the resultant, mentation, and the concept of object. The resultant is mind, is alive, is known. Mentation, which is hard to find in English in the American dictionary, but mentation means thinking or cognitive activity. Sorry, what are the three things, mentation? The three are the result of it, mentation, what is called mentation,

[08:21]

and the concept of object. Those are the three transformations of consciousness as expressed in the second verse of the 30 verses. So the resultant is mind. The resultant is mind. In other words, mind is a resultant. It's cumulative, it's a resultant, that's mind, that's citta. So mind is a resultant, sort of like in a given moment of life, of consciousness, you have one transformation of consciousness is just as given. It's a result of this huge accumulation of past life. This is called also, that's called mind, but it starts out by saying that this first transformation of consciousness or first aspect of consciousness is that it's resultant.

[09:38]

And this resultant is the basis of all other, of all mental activity. But it's a resultant. It's the storehouse. It's the storehouse of all the seeds. That's citta or alaya-vijnana. Okay? Next is mentation or thinking. That's manas. That's thought in this chapter. Mentation? Mentation means thinking or reflecting or cognitive activity. Thought The word thought means cognitive activity or something that's thought of, an object. The mind, which is a resultant and is the storehouse of the seeds of all thoughts. And then there is the actual activation of all the potential thoughts. in the actual active, evolving moment. And then the consciousness of the object, which is consciousness, where you're actually the awareness of the seeds that have been brought into activity.

[10:51]

That's three. That's Vijnana. That's Vijnana, you're right. Okay, so... So, 30 verses is... The 30 verses starts off by, in a sense, expressing something about this chapter 5. And then it moves on. later and expresses chapter 6, and then moves on and expresses chapter 7. So particularly chapters 5, 6, and 7 of this sutra, you'll see versified in these very concentrated of the 30 verses. So if you want to read about this is a background text, which is not in the reading list, but we have copies of this around, right? There are copies in there, copies that can be made and purchased.

[11:56]

Yeah, so there's copies of this, if you want to study this background. So that's the structure. And studying that material is part of what the bodhisattvas do. They study the mechanics of how these transformations work together. Can you just repeat the last one again? From the 30 verses? The 30 verses is called resultant, mentation, and concept of the object. Concept of the object, the actual concept of the object, is another way to say consciousness. Consciousness. So another way to say this is, there's this basic, the basic impression of all experience, and then there's the discursive reflection on it, and then there's the

[13:19]

the discursive activity. So jnana is the actual awareness of the discursive activity of manas, which is the activation of the seeds of consciousness. Yes. Kind of a mechanical question, is anything being freshly made or is everything just being noticed from alaya? Like, you said accumulation, like storehouse, but where's the import, imported from where? Alaya is the result of past activities, so alaya is the result of past cognitive activity, past activities of manas. and the samanas is fresh, but it arises in dependence, available from alaya, and also the sense consciousnesses, the six sense consciousnesses, they are also fresh, and then in the karmic activity which arises

[14:39]

And then as a result of this fresh thinking and acting, the effect of that is then registered in terms of the next moment, which now we have the resultant, which is the accumulation including the previous moment. Something personal to me, it's the availability of all impressions. that everyone has access to convert to? Yeah, sometimes it can be that a lie is unconscious, that Jung talks about. And it is collective in the sense that Is she in the room?

[15:43]

She shouldn't really come into the room anymore because she bites people. So don't bring her. Brazi bites people when they laugh or clap or anything. She gets scared. So anyway, to... whether it lies or is the collective unconscious. Yeah. The problem of thinking about it as collective unconscious, I think, is that it isn't really the same for everybody. But the part that is the same is that it is infused, it has all the seeds for conventional designations, and those things we do share. We do make language together, which is an extremely important ingredient. So that part is collective. And we'll go, I hope, into some detail about how this infusion of... Actually, it does in this chapter.

[16:48]

It talks about how the laya is the appropriating or storehouse. It appropriates and stores the... towards conventional designation. So we have the seeds within us, within our resultant consciousness. Each moment we have a consciousness that arises which has all these seeds which predispose us to conventionally designate things and also predispose us to what we'll see in the next chapter, which predisposes us to imagination of essences in things. So the seeds for conventional designation are tied together with the seeds for the imagination of various things, one of them being the imagination that things exist independently.

[17:49]

And so in that sense we have that collective unconscious that we always share. We all have this tendency essences and things, and we also have this tendency for conventional designation. So humans are born, as you know, with this language gene, right? So the language gene, in a sense, is part of our alaya. In a sense, it's collective, but Each of us has that, rather than it's like we're all tapping into some kind of, like, cosmic mind, because alaya really isn't a cosmic mind. Alaya is, well, I shouldn't say it's not a cosmic mind, because it's not separate from the cosmic mind, but it's not actually the cosmic mind. It can be transformed into the cosmic mind because it's not separate from the cosmic mind, but alaya really is the storehouse of trouble. And it needs to be converted

[18:53]

into the Buddha mind. It needs to be transformed. And it can be transformed because it's not dual with the Buddha mind. I didn't hear that last part. It can be transformed in a sense into the Buddha mind because it's not separate from the Buddha mind, not dual with the Buddha mind. But it's not laya, strictly speaking, it's not the Buddha mind. A laya is something that has to be converted, has to be reversed. And that's part of what is in the latter part of the chapter, which is the second part of what makes bodhisattvas wise. It's a mind, thought and consciousness that they don't perceive. mind, thought, and consciousness. They don't perceive these things, and in not perceiving these things, this conversion of alaya and the conversion of manas and the conversion of the sense contributions occurs, it becomes a different form of wisdom.

[20:02]

Okay? So this is the mechanics, and And when we get to mechanics, lots of questions arise, right? Yes? You say that the mind is like a storehouse of our stories. Is it a storehouse of our stories? Yes. Right. And you may think, well, then we can't have any new story. Well, you can have a new story because each moment you can have a new story because it's the last moment. So the stories you had available in the last moment were given to you. You can only have the stories that you have seeds for. And each moment you have a large number of seeds, but basically that's all you're going to make stories. You're not going to make stories out of any other material. But there's some new ingredients in each moment because at the last moment you did something, you had some activity which never happened before, based on old material, and now you have some new material.

[21:10]

So there is a possibility of new stories all the time. Even though you're given a script each moment, the script is evolving. And also, the understanding of mind, consciousness and intellect is evolving too. It's evolving in you. Like this morning, all of you now, as a result of the last few minutes, have a different understanding of mind, consciousness and intellect. So do I. And as a group, as a practice group, our understanding of the Buddhist intellect is evolving. If you look at the history of Buddhism, there's a story about what people of different phases in history, in different countries, thought about mind, thought, and consciousness. And it evolves. Buddhist understanding of mind is constantly evolving, and generally speaking, The Buddhist understanding of mind is that the mind is evolving and the understanding of mind is evolving, because understanding is a mental thing.

[22:10]

Okay? So, yes? Berndt said one time that he thought that our habit patterns, he was talking about grasping in particular, were on a cellular level, and that really struck me at the time, that this way of looking at it is that if alaya is where the habit patterns actually live, that the transformation is on a cellular level, but more on a... it somehow seems more accessible. to think about transformation of the habit patterns in Alaya than that somehow each cell in our body is grasping and therefore this is such a strong motion. It's really hard to imagine transforming. I just saw some light, that's all. I think that light you saw was a false light.

[23:30]

I think that the source of misconception is cellular, and it's not cellular that transformation can occur. Transformation can occur even though... these basic misconceptions and correct misconceptions and misconceptions based on our body. And alaya is talking, is actually how the body gets connected to mind. So alaya, it just says here, alaya is the way the body gets hooked into a womb. It's, you know, Part of the reason for this teaching is to explain how there's rebirth and so on and so forth.

[24:32]

Who's next? Victor, are you next? No? Michael. Where does awareness kick into that? Awareness? Where's the awareness? Well, in a sense, all three are, in a sense, awareness. Aliyah is consciousness. However, as it says here in the 30 verses, aliyah is here in consciousness, you could say awareness, called aliyah, with all its seeds, is the resultant. It is unidentified in terms of concepts of object and location, and it is always possessed of activities such as contact, feeling, attention, perception, and volition.

[25:35]

So alaya is actually a consciousness unidentified in terms of objects, concept of object and location. So there's awareness, but not awareness like of location and concept of object. That's alaya. Okay? However, vijnana, the third transformation of consciousness, or the third aspect of consciousness, or whatever you want to call it, that's aware of, that is the concept of object, that is aware of, that is the awareness of the concept of object, that is aware of location. Okay? And then cognitive activity, manas, is thinking up concepts of objects, and locations, and things like that. So it provides the material, the discursive material, which the third one becomes fully aware of. But a lie is an awareness, just that it's kind of latent awareness, which we generally don't consider that awareness, but it is, the basic awareness is not identifying things or locating things.

[26:50]

So all three, these are three dimensions of consciousness. They're inseparable, floating by itself. Did you mean chasing after things or waiting for things to arise, the basic awareness? Basic awareness. He says they don't, I forget what he said, but it was kind of like, it seemed to imply that the mind's awareness, it doesn't chase after things, but it allows for awareness. It doesn't chase after things and allow things to arise. It's the basis of all. And the manas is more like the chasing after things. It's the cognitive activity. It's generating the fruition. I see you, Elena. It's the fruition. It's the ripening of these seeds, which the resultant provides. And then the full awareness of them is the vijnana.

[28:01]

Jane? Are there seeds of virtue also in the life of vijnana? Seeds of virtue also. Rob? Where do the sense organs and their fields and objects, where do they fall? Sense organs are... You know, they're the body. The eye is basically the sense organs. The eye organ, the ear organ, and so on. So, the vijnana arises in dependence on the sense organs, and also the mental sense. By the way, the mental sense organ is monks. So, the physical sense consciousnesses, like eye consciousness, dependence on eye organ, and the material stimulation of electromagnetic radiation, when those three arise, you can have the consciousness.

[29:11]

And that consciousness, however, arises with the other two transformations. Okay? Okay? And the manas, the mind organ, will coordinate all these sense consciousnesses, which are discussed in this chapter, and also in the 30 verses. And also, the alaya provides seeds for what will be imagined as what's going on to interpret the sense material. So alaya will be the basis for what the sense consciousness will finally know. And Manas will be coordinating the available ideas of what's going on. And sense organs and sense objects, or sense organs and sense fields are part of the conditions which allow us to have experience, because we do actually live

[30:18]

That's not just our, that's not just our individual idea of what things are going on, okay? Jane, I think, Jane might, you already, that's right? Judith? Is your name Judith? Liz. Liz. Or Jones, Jones, Liz Jones. I knew there was a J in there. See, that's, there was a seed in there. From past experience. Yes? When we're born, Do we have, we don't have all the seeds of our whole life fleets? We have the seeds for the moment. Yeah, you get new seeds, but, yeah, each moment you get a whole new portion of seeds. So is it infinitely expanding for your whole life, or do some of them slip off? I haven't heard of any. all the seeds are impermanent and everything is impermanent but it's not so much things slipping off it's more a matter of transformation it's not like you sort of it's more like I would call it in the 30 verses a lie of being quelled or what's the word anyway put to rest

[31:50]

rather than, like, dehydrated. Yes? Can you say more about alias being, not being Buddha-mind, meaning to be transformed into Buddha-mind, and yet is not separate from Buddha-mind? I mean, is it this, that it's like letting go of your stories, it's how you transform alias, that's it? Is letting go of your stories how a lie is transformed into Buddha mind? Yes. So, letting go of your stories means that the stories that are manifesting to you are the activated seeds of stories. And in the process of the stories maturing, the activity of the maturing and activated seeds sees, and then the cognition of them, which in that process we can breathe through these stories.

[32:58]

This is the entree into the practice which transforms alaya. And, but just to be, I think that that there's going to be no end to the investigation of how this works. I'll come back to all your questions, but I just wanted to say something about the practice, the practice which is implied in this chapter, but not spoken of, by which the Bodhisattva does not only know about how these three dimensions of mind work, but they also come to not perceive them, right? And the way they come to not perceive them is by, what I said yesterday, breathing through the stories, which are basically the activity of these three, okay?

[34:07]

The stories are based on the resultant, based on mind, and the activity based on that mind, and the cognition based on that mind. That's what the stories are. So, breathing through these stories, one comes to see how these three dimensions are interrelating with each other. And when you see how they're interrelating with each other, you don't see them anymore. You see they're empty. You see that these three dimensions, which comprise your experience, individually and interrelationally are ungraspable. Ungraspable. Any part of this process by itself, you realize emptiness of the whole process and every element in the process.

[35:10]

And in that vision, you don't see anymore. You have no perceptions of these things. Okay? Now, so I wanted to also introduce to you, which I said yesterday, and I said last night, too. Yesterday I said, you know, that Bajang as Masu. what is the import of the school, but I think actually, as I mentioned to you, that the word school, which is the way Andy Ferguson translated it, that character school also can be translated as source, and it also means source. So I actually like it that what is the essential import of the source? The source of what? The source of experience, the source of consciousness. What's the essential import of it? It's the place. It's just the place where you let go.

[36:18]

That's the import of the source. What's the source? It's the source of mind. So the meditation is... to learn the backward step, which turns the light around and shines it back of mind. And when you turn the light around and look at the source of mind, the import of that source, which you can look at, is the letting go of your body and life. And the alaya is the way consciousness hooks into a body. So at the letting go of the attachment to body, alaya starts being transformed. It doesn't get cut off from the body. It's just that its function starts to become reversed.

[37:24]

And and I'll talk about this more later probably but in the what's called moho jirguan which is the or the mahayana asamata vipassana the mahayana tranquility and insight work by Jiri in that text in the lesser chapter 2 under the heading of the samadhi of neither walking nor sitting, which is also called the samadhi of continuous wakeful awareness. It's continual wakeful awareness of the source of mind, but in particular it's wakeful awareness of manas, or of the cognitive activity. So you are turning the light, you're reversing the light and looking back at your cognitive activity.

[38:33]

And the cognitive activity, this manas, that I mentioned to you, this manas is mentioned in this chapter and then later Asanga specifies manas as the locus of defilement and delusion. This cognitive activity is as the locus of delusion. I see you. I see you. And so we turn the light around and we look back and we see this cognitive activity which is the root source of delusion also non-dual with the dharma consciousness. nature. And the place where this root is non-dual with the Dharma nature is the place we focus information of manas to wisdom occurs.

[39:44]

So this is called learning. The looking Letting the light be turned around and looking back at your cognitive activity, you're not trying to change your cognitive activity, you're just trying to see your cognitive activity. And in that place, in the place where you let go of your body and life, that way of being there with this cognitive activity, that way of being there with the stories which are arising based on eons of misconception and cognitions of all that, Looking back at that, and particularly at the cognitive activity, you're looking at the source, and the import there is to let go of body and life, and that mode of being with that source, that's the place where you... that this root of delusion is non-dual with, or is itself, the Dharma nature.

[40:50]

And that is the point of transformation of these consciousnesses into wisdom. That's the turning of light. And that's the backward step which we're being encouraged to learn from the time of Jiri and his teacher, Wei Si. His teaching predates the Zen school. But you can see it in our school. We picked it up in Dogen. So you can actually do this meditation when you're sitting. Just look at the place where you let go of your body and life. That's the place of this... Look at that place where you let go of your body and life. That's the backward step. And looking at that, you tune into how these three, okay, they're not the same completely, and they're not different completely.

[42:04]

So we can also meditate on that dynamic of how you really can't have one without the other, so they're not completely the same, but actually they have the same nature, so they're not really different. Meditating on this, you see that they're empty. Seeing that they're empty, you come to understand them and you don't perceive them anymore. And not perceiving them anymore, is like being willing to let go of your body and life. And it's also letting away... ...transformed into the source of hooking into bodies and attaching to a lie of being the opportunity for reversal and release. So this text is, in a sense, you're looking at the... In this chapter, in that little section where they talk about that, you're looking at this kind of the source of Mahayana of transformation of consciousness. in this section. The next two chapters will go into detail about how this process is difficult and how our misconception, more details about the misconceptions here.

[43:21]

And then also in case 32 of the Book of Serenity, There's another little snippet you can look at there, where a monk comes to Yangshan and says, Hi, Yangshan says, where do you live? He says, the Yu province. He says, do you think of it? Think of your home, and he says, I always think of it. And then Yangshan says, the ability to think, cognitive activity, is the mind. So, and then that which is... Think back to the mind that thinks. In other words, turn the light around and shine it back on cognitive activity. And so the monk hears that and does that and then... Now do you see many things?

[44:23]

And the monk says, when I reach this place, I don't see anything. So there's another little Zen dialogue, which you can look at, which talks about the same part, the same thing in this chapter, where bodhisattvas study the mind, say that they reverse the light and shine it back on the mind, but they do, and then they're able to actually be not, they don't see anything anymore at that point. But that's, again, not taken nihilistically. What does it? What do you mean? To not perceive. Well, you don't see anything standing separate from anything. You don't see any energies anymore. You don't see I consciousness, you don't see I, and you don't see I organ. What you see is the absence. conceptual grasping of what's going on.

[45:23]

That's what you see. You see a vast emptiness. And there's no way to dissolve it. However, also remember that in Zen, in our school, we say, first there was the mountains, and there was the mountains, and there was... So this chapter says... First, there is the mind in these three aspects. So, I just wanted to mention that little detail about the practice, that there's a practice there insinuated between the teaching about the mind consciousness, or mind, thought, mind, thought and consciousness, or mind, intellect and consciousness, or mind, cognitive and consciousness, is a teaching about a practice that you do which takes you to the next phase, which is a direct perception of the ultimate nature of this mind, thought and consciousness.

[46:36]

The ultimate nature of it is that it's empty. And that's what the Bodhisattva understands in this chapter. But there's a... When you first understand emptiness, in that emptiness there are no things. There are no mind, thought and consciousness in that emptiness. There's just the absence of grasping is what you're seeing. And that's what's necessary for release. But then there's a further step where you now can see things correctly. Now you can see these dependently quarters and things which we were talking about before, but now you can see them correctly. Okay, now into things. Elena? Yes, that is the word place. Some time ago, on another practice period, you said something to the effect of people getting evaporation.

[47:36]

You're forgiven. What is reborn is the place where there's attachment. What's reborn is the place where there's attachment? Yeah. It has no existence. It's stone. How can there be any rebirth? What is this place which is empty? What? How can anything be reborn of that place where there is the possibility of transformation, the future of life, or rebirth after that? Yes, so, the response I have to your question is that part of what we're talking about here is how it is that there... How do you put it? That there is not nothing. There's not nothing.

[48:40]

But we're not saying that there's something. We're just saying that there is not nothing, because you could get into thinking that there is not nothing by this teaching. Because we just said they don't perceive anything in that state. But we're not saying that there's nothing. We don't take this just literally. About this bodhisattva's vision of the ultimate lack of inherent existence. So there can be the appearance, and there is the appearance, of a birth, of life arising. This does appear. We're explaining how it appears and how to adhere to the way it appears. We set in motion a process of misery. This appearance is precisely because of attachment to whatever this person is like. The appearance... Misery. It's just misery. It leads to misery. The attachment itself is not misery.

[49:44]

The attachment is just a natural function of mind, that the mind projects points of attachment onto something, and then we take that something as those points of attachment, and that sets in motion a process by which we become in misery. That's how it happens. That's what the sutra's talking about. Yes? I can't remember where I read this, but I saw the phrase, drop off body and mind, or body and light, and it's related as drop off the barrier between self and other. And do you think that's a correct trick? No, it's not a correct trick. Drop off the barrier between self and other. I find it easier to understand. Fine. Drop off the barrier between... But again, drop off the barrier between self and other is not so good in a way because... It's almost as though there is a barrier. Drop off the belief that there's a barrier. And the belief that there's a barrier is based on your body, which has a mind, which imagines a barrier and believes that it's really there.

[50:52]

Drop off that whole thing. Yes, please. I don't know who's next. People who haven't been called on. Liz. The reference to, and you won't see anything, tells us like an epilogue in the self-perceived model where it says realization is the perception. It describes the way things are... It describes actually, in the Self-fulfilling Samadhi, it describes how we and the Buddhas and all beings are assisting each other, constantly assisting each other, living together in this spectacularly harmonious scene. All this, however, does not appear within perception. So the opening to the vision of the Buddha is beyond our perception.

[51:57]

Our perception does not exist in the realm of the inconceivable Dharma, wherein Buddhas and sentient beings are non-dual. A place where Buddhas and sentient beings are non-dual, where living beings who are not enlightened are not the least bit separate from Buddhas, and Buddhas are not the least bit sentient beings who are suffering and confused. That realm that the Buddhists live in, where we're living too, which we don't realize, is beyond consciousness. There's no trace of consciousness in it. However, that realm can illuminate Consciousness can be illuminated, but consciousness doesn't reach it. So you can be illuminated about how we're all working together in complete harmony and unobstructed compassion. You can be illuminated about that, but you and me, us conscious beings, are conscious of that realm.

[53:01]

In that realm, for example, you don't perceive anything, there's no things standing out there. Because when there's things, That type of vision interferes with the realization, which it also says in that self-fulfilling samadhi, that... recognized is again back in dualistic consciousness. Yes? Some of the readings, there's a term, non-thinking. Yes. How does that map into this schema? Non-thinking, the way I would map it into this schema is non-thinking is In the chapter 7, well, chapter 6 too, in a sense, but non-thinking is meditating on the other dependent character phenomena. Non-thinking is meditating on the teaching that all phenomena arise in dependence on things other than themselves and are not self-produced. So, in chapter 7, the Buddha says, initially I teach a lack of self-production or a lack of own being in terms of production.

[54:09]

But it means... that everything, you, me, everything, what you actually are is your lack of self. You have no nature of producing yourself. You exist in dependence on things other than yourself. Meditating on that is non-thinking. As you meditate on that, you get ready to see how you project through your imagination, these three types of consciousness, these three aspects of consciousness, and thereby have imagination of separate things, and then cognize your imagination of separate things, and then actually see separate things. Then you study that. When you study that, then you're ready, because you're based in studying non-thinking. Then you study thinking, and then you're ready to study not-thinking. And not-thinking means you actually see... That there's no eye consciousness, ear consciousness.

[55:12]

There's no colors, sounds, smells, tastes, touches. And it says, and that's the essential art of Zazen. But that's the part of the practice where there's no more mountains or rivers. So in that, that's the essential art. That's the way of entering into realization. But then the unfoldment of realization is then you come back into the mountains and rivers. which is pointed out in Chapter 32. So Chapter 32, this teaching, not Chapter 32, Case 32 of the Book of Serenity, this teaching of this sutra, and Dobi's thinking of not thinking, how do you think of not thinking, not thinking, that teaching, part of Zazen, but not the complete story of Zazen, those three teachings work together. And, oh, one more thing I want to mention. Yesterday, when I was talking about giving up stories, I think Susan said she didn't quite see the difference between the tranquility in the giving up the stories was and where the insight was.

[56:25]

So part of giving up stories, when you give up your stories, or when you turn the light around and shine it back on the nature of your mind, as you turn it back, on what's going on and you see the place in what's going on you see the place in what's going on where you let go of your body where you let go of your life so like when you're sitting in the zendo a body may be arising see the body where's the place shine the light on the place where you let go of this body got a mind there, got a life Where is the place where you let go of your life? Okay? Look at that. Shine a light on that. Alright? Shine a light on that. Just as you let go there, this, you'll see, is a very quiet place.

[57:34]

That's the calming part. Okay? That's calming in this particular context. Really, it's deeply calm there. At the place where your life is and your body is, when there's letting go, you see how quiet it is. So that part of it, that giving up your story, that part of giving up your story of your body and giving up your story of your life, that part of it is calming. Where's the insight? The insight is that you actually contemplate the situation. And you have a little... Now you can... Now that you're in this place, you're sitting in the place. You're sitting in the source of the... And now you're sitting in the source, but you're sitting in the source letting go of body and life, which mind offers you. And you're calm.

[58:36]

Then you start You bring the teachings to bear on this calm source where you're letting go of body and life. And you start to meditate on the situation. You actually start thinking about it. You're there, calmly sitting at the source where you let go of your body and life. You start talking. You start meditating in a discursive way. And you start to bring these teachings in there. And you start to be able to talk. what would you say well you could say these three aspects of mind are not two are not four and they are three and two and one they're not they're not entirely the same and they're not different you can talk like that at that place and that deep then you can then you can that deepens your uh your wisdom that's

[59:39]

You bring the teachings to bear on this place of quietness, and you bring the teachings to bear on your stories. So first you let go of your stories and then you become calm with them, then you start to analyze, to become more deeply liberated from your stories. You get somewhat liberated by this calming, but if you've moved away from the calm, which you may have noticed, If you turn the light back around and shine it out on things and start running out there and playing, you forget the letting go because you still have not been transformed in your relationship to objects. Then the fact that they seem to be separate seems to kick back in and then you're like fighting with things again and thinking you're better than George Bush. Gotcha. But at the source, you know, you let go of that judgment.

[60:50]

Any people who have not been called on? Because I see a number of second-timers. I'll call on second-timers if there's no new people. Oops. You think you're a new person? Say it. Oh, you say that. Okay, second timers. Machanidu. What? Machanidu. Machanidu, what's that? What did you just say? It's Japanese. Machanidu. Ocha? What's that? Ocha? Ocha. Machanidu. Idu? Yeah. Machanidu. [...] I need to hear one. Sounds Indian, actually. Mokeko desu. Mokeko desu. No, no, no, no. You talk about the practice in Hawaii in this chapter is looking at the place where you let go of body and life.

[61:58]

That just seems that I can't. I don't know what that means. Can you see your body? Yeah. Now, where is the place where you let go of it? I don't know. I know you don't know. Can you see the place you're holding on? Do you need any help? Do you want me to choke you now? Do you feel any holding on to your body? No? Most people, anyway, hold on to their body. And that place, can you become unconcerned with your body?

[63:08]

Got pain in your body? Can you, like, let go of your concern? If you're sitting in the zendo, you might think, well, I got pain, but what will happen to me if I... Well, just... You know, maybe I'll get sciatica. Well, it's true, you might. You might get... A lot of terrible things might happen to you if you, like, let go of your body. and stop people worrying about what's going to happen to you in the next few million seconds. Does that sound familiar? Just for a little while, you actually let go of your concern about that body that's sitting there. Okay? You're making an effort to sit up straight, okay? Now let go of your concern about that body. Let go of your body. I shouldn't say let go, but where is the place where you let go? There is a letting go place. That's the place. And then see what that's like at the place of letting go of your body.

[64:14]

And how about your life? Let go of life. Doesn't mean kill yourself. It just means let go of it for a second. In other words, let go of your story. In other words, breathe through. In other words, let go of your life. That's the source of mind right there. It's where you're holding on, always concerned about your body and your life, always concerned about your body and life. That's a place where you're dualistic, grasping of your idea of your body and your life. But right there, also there's a place to let go. Turn the light around, shine back at that place. Shine back to that place. And if you call it abstract, fine.

[65:17]

Shine back to that place. Are grasping your body or you're not? If you're not, then join the not grasping. If you are, Look at that and then see, well, right next to the grasping, there could be not grasping. There could be release of this grasping. Concern for your body. There's like no concern for your body. And what's there concern for? There's concern for realizing the Dharma, which I heard has something to do. We don't say, hey, you want to realize Dharma? Grasp your body tighter than usual. Be more concerned about your life. That's how to consider. No, it doesn't. Don't have basically no concern about your life and your body. Just be concerned about dharma. Okay, I switched. Now I'm concerned for dharma. Okay, now you actually like let go of your body and life, did you? No, I didn't do that yet. Well, if you're concerned with dharma, like put more concern and that will gradually maybe you'll be able to just indirectly let go of your body and life.

[66:25]

Can you see that place? It's there all day long. But is there the turning the light back and looking at it all day long? Well, maybe not. But that's the thing. That's another way of saying let go of your story. Your story of I got problems, I got concerns, I want this, I want that. Okay, fine, fine. That's your body and your life. Now let go of that. Place Okay? That's where you can see that this grasping in this whole deluded thing is non-dual with this other thing. And also, as you open to that, you'll actually open to seeing lots of other things, too. And if you're studying your body or your three aspects of mind, you'll be able to have more knowledge about them. Let's see. Grace... I guess I fall a little bit in the group of not quite getting the grasping of the body.

[67:39]

You can't see the grasping? What works better for me, and I want to know if it's an alternative, that it's okay, is to actually... think of this as the DCA of mind itself. So if I meditate instead, because I'm more attached to my mind in some way than my body, I think. I mean, that's my character logic type is that I'm a thinking type. So I tend to have access through seeing. This, to me, is the point that I've always had access, is to kind of ...into the fact that mind and consciousness are dependently co-arising with each other, so there isn't any me, because for me, me is mind. Do you know what I'm saying? Are you asking me if it's okay if you let go of that? Yeah, can I do a different meditation? Can I meditate on the fact that I don't have a mind?

[68:43]

uh... that you don't have well you can do that but i think it'd be better if you like to let go of that too you say right i'm willing to try yeah and to do yes uh... somewhere just a new person back then yes It's not a place of words, what you're saying, but there's no word there. It's not a place of words? Is that correct? I don't know if I said that. I don't know if I think that it's not a place of words. That sounds like naming it. Is that right? Mm-hmm. Yeah, the words are quiet.

[69:50]

Huh? Yeah. All the words... All the words have the same status for you because you're letting go of whatever they are. Yeah. Yes. So you bring the teaching, but now you're not bringing the teaching and saying, well, now these are really good words. When you start contemplating, you know, as you start to analyze what's going on and test to see if you have any understanding, you don't then start to reactivate your preferences and stuff. Hopefully you don't do that, because otherwise you're going to just get agitated and flip around the other direction again. You don't understand that?

[70:54]

When you're calm, you'll understand it. When you're calm, you understand how you can contemplate with no involvement. in the story so giving up your story okay so uh what is it bodhidharma said to the second ancestor you know breathe through all dances so he learned how to do that and he came back and says i have no you know i'm totally like not involved in stuff anymore but he's talking He didn't think, okay, now I'm going to say this good thing to the teacher. Like, I have no involvement. I'm totally free of my stories. Otherwise he would have been caught, wouldn't he? Right? He thought, okay, now I've got the answer to the teacher. No, he wasn't involved in that.

[71:58]

So he could say, truthfully, I have no involvement. I'm not caught by any stories of realization. I am telling you a story of realization that I'm not caught by. The disciple has realized the teaching. I am a Dharma inactor. But I'm not caught by that story. And Bodhidharma says, well, you haven't slipped into nihilism, have you? And then he says, no. The answer no comes from this realization. And he says, prove it. So he says, I'm clearly aware and no words reach it. He's talking, telling you that no words reach the realization which he's talking. So, in this place, you open to the Dharma which you've learned. It comes. It does its thing. You have a little talk. You and the Buddha have a little talk.

[73:00]

Things get more and more fully realized. And there's no attachment to the stories. Timo? You stressed the point on shining the light on something. Shine the light back. Shining the light back, in contrast, will somehow only be calm. And I wonder... No, no, not necessarily in contrast with only being calm. It's just that shining the light back has a calming side and an insight side. For me, it sounds like there's a bit sort of activity. And... Activity where? There is some sort of activity in shining the light back. It's sort of an activity, yeah. It's an activity, yeah. Right. Like you hear a teaching, and then... Like, take a look at this, and you go... So you look.

[74:04]

You look back. But on the other hand, you say, let go of it. So I just wonder what the difference in the end is having... Okay, there. You stop there for a second, please, okay? The turn is to look at letting go. That's what you're looking at. Usually you're looking out. Looking out means looking out and grabbing things as separate. Looking out means your usual way of shining the light is shining it out in the realm where things look separate from you. And you grab things and you're shining out. Turning it back means shining back where things aren't separate, and therefore shining them back where you let go. So shining back on letting go of objects. But you let go also of the shining back of letting go. Yeah, once you're looking, you don't have to keep turning back. You've got to turn in the right direction. So you don't have to keep turning back unless you flip back out again. So I guess you do have to keep turning it back moment by moment.

[75:07]

Sorry. It's orientation. So that is an activity of mind of turning the light around and shining it back and letting go, shining it back on the source, where usually there's clinging, but you're shining it back to see where might there be something different from the clinging. But the seeing itself is not a sort of clinging or a mechanism which you should let go. And my question is, isn't it in the end the same like being calm from the beginning? you let go of this shining activity too, immediately. Your question is, is it a matter of being calm from the beginning? Yeah, is there a difference of the calming practice from the beginning to letting go of this shining practice? I don't know, I don't argue with that there's calm from the beginning.

[76:09]

There's calm, luminous, you know, Dharma nature all the time. And it's quiet, it's calm. It's there all the time. It's non-dual with our active, confused, mis-conceiving consciousness. It's non-dual with it. So, at the place of having this consciousness, which we've got different dimensions of awareness, at that place, the place of letting go of that process, you get open to the calm which has always been there. And also, the calm is maybe the first thing you notice, because The insight, the calm is basically, in some sense, the calm seems to be kind of pretty much standard, you know, it's impermanent, but the calm is like, it's pretty much the same calm, it's just calm.

[77:13]

But the insight is constantly evolving and getting new opportunities realized. So the insight is a way to incorporate all the different teachings about things So there is quite a bit of activity, mental activity. But it's in the context of the calm. Yes? So do I understand correctly that the teachings of the Dharma and the lay of consciousness are both non-dual within the nature? Yeah. Everything's non-dual. Buddha nature is the non-duality of delusion and enlightenment. Buddha nature, you know, or the Dharma, the Dharma is the non-duality of Buddha nature and deluded nature. Elena, did you have a question over there?

[78:19]

I'm wondering if there's a difference between, it sounds like once you, it doesn't sound like turning the light and shining it inward is the same as letting go. It seems like first you let go and then you turn the light and shine it inward. I think letting go is shining the light inwards. It seems that there, so then the next thing to do is to import the teachings once you've let go. So, like, I memorize a phrase from chapter six that I think would be helpful. After I let go, I bring that to mind. What phrase? I don't remember. But I would. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I was thinking of two examples, one from yesterday and one from today. Actually, there's a man from today. But just the ownership that I tend to have on things that I don't see until they kind of happen.

[79:26]

Like, for instance, when I speak Japanese, I don't see the ownership until I say, and you say, blah, blah, blah. Kind of inwardly, kind of outwardly, but inwardly I can feel this embarrassment immediately and then I can see the ownership that I had and it's at that point I can choose to actually stay with that embarrassment or turning the light inward or backwards. um to actually um can look at that right and see who's taking ownership of this well i don't know i don't know i don't know if i think that part yeah the first part is like let go where's the place where the ownership is relinquished look at that yeah so even even like is a kind of letting go of getting involved in you know the story of embarrassment.

[80:27]

So first of all, let go of the story. Then maybe you can analyze the story by bringing dharma to the story. First of all, let go of it. So I can see, actually, when I look to see where this turning point is, it seems that when I get to the very root of of it, there's no need to let go because it's already let go. It's not like there's a letting go before or after. It's like the very sense of seeing, the very grasping of it, is in a sense the letting go of it. I don't see there's a space before or after. Part of letting go would be let go of before and after. Seeing, grasping. I mean seeing that I have a hold of it. Seeing a holding.

[81:28]

You don't have to have anything. Nothing more has to happen now to see at that point of holding, to see the giving up. Because then there's seeing what I'm holding, seeing who's holding it. To say there's not the end of it is okay. It's just that you're letting go of beginning and end too. So when there's just holding, in some sense, and that's it, that could be... Because you said before... Because usually they're not just holding. Usually there's holding, and now what? Or, you know, whose fault is that? But just holding, when something happens like that, it's not so sticky. It's like the thing of the state of Europe. There's holding. There's no holding. When there's just holding, there's no holding. And when there's just holding, in fact, you're letting go of your body.

[82:29]

But usually there's not just holding. But when there's just holding, and you've got the light turning on, you realize, oh, I'm not holding. I see the place where this body, this holding... This body's being released. I see it. There it is. You're not even talking about it. Look, where's the place where the body's, like, let go of? It's right at the body. Or is there some special, like, little decoration on the body that makes it, like, let go? The body, there's nothing holding to it. There's nothing... There's no criterion for letting go. So it's just like the body sitting there being the body. So the other dependent nature characteristic and the imputational quality, this allows activity to happen without the imputation being placed on it or being mistaken for it. There's no option. I do, yeah. Do you? Yes. Is that place of just holding where caring for would happen in conventional reality?

[83:37]

If you could just hold and care for it without grasping? We talked in one practice very privately about caring. Mm-hmm. And you could care for things without grasping, but devoted to things and beings without grasping you see the place you've got the light turned around all day long moment by moment I should say throughout the day you get the light turned around to looking at the place where you're letting go of your body and your life when you let go of your body and life then as you take care of things with no grasping so this is like called skillful caring for things And this is called, not only are you caring for things skillfully, but you have wisdom. You have wisdom, you know, together with your caring for things. So we do care for things, but in order to be skillful, we need to, like, let go of our body and our life, and our life includes our mind.

[84:47]

Because life is connecting mind to a body. Yes. Not to keep going over the same point, but I need a little more clarification. I was just hearing about shining the light inside, or turning the light around. And what is going on for me is I'm sitting, and as the stories come up, When I let them go, I'm going back to my breath. And then another story comes up, and I let go and go back to my breath. But this business of shining a light around and finding the place where I'm holding the story sounds like something going back to the breath. Yeah, it sounds like something more. More activity going on. It would be like when you're with your breath, Dogen didn't say in that text, you know, he didn't say, go back to your breath.

[85:56]

No idea. So, but anyway, experience, like breathing, he's saying, you're breathing, okay? Now turn the light around. So while you're breathing, turn the light around and shine it back to illuminate the source of the mind which knows It is sort of a mental activity. So, for example, you're looking at the place that you let go of your breath, and you let go, for example, of your mind, and you let go of your body, and you let go of your life, while you're breathing. But you have some examples of some things to let go of, like your breathing, or your torso, your thorax, or your back, or your butt, or your ideas.

[87:08]

You have phenomena to let go of, which usually there's some sense of clinging to, because we imagine as suffering. So we imagine our breath is separate from other people's breath, or separate from our awareness, or separate from our body. We imagine these things. And there's clinging around that. So if you're following your breath, or if you're balancing on one foot, or if you're sitting on a cushion, these are experiences which one could learn to turn the light around and shine it back on letting go of body and life. Shine it back in the place where delusion arises, and right next to it, non-dual with it, shouldn't even say next to it, but non-dual with it, is dharma-nanda.

[88:20]

That's the source which you can see when you let go. But if you look at your body, or look at your feelings, or look at your mind, or look at your life, and you're grasping it, which is usually the case, and you don't see the place right there where you let go, then that means you don't see the way the source of your delusion is non-dual with the nature of reality. And then, of course, the delusion just keeps emanating and influencing, emanating and influencing. Well, it just keeps doing its thing, because it's happening and you're attaching. It's happening and you're attaching. It's happening and attaching, and attaching, it throws us around. This is like the lights turned out. This is the normal way it is. Delusion is generating images, This thought consciousness is scooping up stuff from a laya, offering it up, it's being cognized, and then there's grasping of it, and we're getting tossed around.

[89:30]

Again, this story will be elaborated in the next two chapters. Rather than go through all this stuff I'm telling you to practice now, You can start practicing even ahead of getting into this more detail and you can practice noticing that you are grasping when you notice when you are grasping that's the light shining out. Turning around to place grasping and the same mind which imagines these things you will be able to see that it's non-dual. Just like we said before you will be able to see the grasping and see that the non-grasping is right there in the grasping. It's not separate. But if you don't see the grasping, then you don't just have grasping. You have more than grasping when you have grasping. You have like, well, this is true. This isn't just grasping, this is true.

[90:34]

Yes? Can you say that letting go is what's happening often? The light around is looking at that place where that's what's happening. Yeah. It's not something saying, there was some questions about, do you let go before or after turning the light or whatever, but letting go is not some activity that happens at the same time. Yeah, it says, what is the meaning of the source? The meaning of the source is, it's just the place. where you, you could say, are always letting go of your body and life. It's just a place where you're always Buddha. Now, that may be difficult for you to think that you're always Buddha, so it's just the place where you're always letting go. Well, it may be difficult for you to see that you're always letting go. So, it's the place where you appreciate the letting go of your body and life, which is your actual life.

[91:37]

If you actually could hold on to your light, your body, you'd be dead, like that. And that's what death is, actually. You get a hold of yourself, finally, you stop wiggling. You get yourself under control. And then you're dead. So you go... That's it. No new breath comes in. But actually, you let go. Every time you exhale, you let go of that exhalation. And every time you inhale, you let go and exhale. You are like letting go.

[92:24]

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