So, I wonder, can you hear me now? A little better. A little better? Could you move forward, Elenia, please? Could you move, sit right here? Move your chair right there. You can move your place over a little bit, Elenia. Would you start this over again, please? Okay. What are we? In a sense, we're Dharma students, we're Zen students, and we find ourselves in the later part of a great Mahayana teaching, which is sometimes called revealing the deep intimacy That's one way to translate this Samdhi Nirmacana Sutra.

[01:05]

Revealing or releasing the deep intimacy of what? Of the Buddhist teaching. Or also the deep mystery. So here we are in this sutra. And I want to give some context at this point, which is In this tradition or in this lineage, in a way, our practice is, some of us find our practice to be aesthetically appealing and a simple practice of unity. a teaching and a practice, for example, which is simply to be ourselves, or just sit, or just be silent and still.

[02:15]

Now, the teachings of this chapter are teachings not of unity, in a way, but teachings of division and analysis, teachings which divide and conquer Buddha's mind, teachings which divide and analyze and sub-analyze the mind of the Buddha. So in our practice we start with stillness. Within this stillness there is tremendous activity. This isn't a dead stillness.

[03:21]

The stillness we're practicing is the stillness of being ourselves is alive, is fully alive. And in there are all the enlightening activities of the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas. When we come to a practice of simplicity, of simply being ourselves in stillness, or simply being still and being ourselves, when we hear teachings of analysis, we may feel that these teachings will disturb the unity and non-duality of simply being ourselves. We may worry that the beauty of the Buddha and the Dharma will be disturbed by lists and details.

[04:26]

So I suggest at the beginning that this type of teaching is to help us understand and probe the dynamism and vitality that's going on in the stillness of the Buddhas, in the stillness and the silence of the Buddhas. In this chapter, this chapter begins with Avalokiteshvara asking a question. And of course, Avalokiteshvara asks questions for the welfare, happiness and benefit of all beings. And he asks a question in the form of a statement. And the statement is,

[05:36]

that there are ten stages. He tells the Buddha that there's ten stages. In other words, he tells the Buddha that the Buddha has already taught ten stages of bodhisattva evolution. And then he asks questions about these ten stages. And at first he asks, how many purities and how many limbs are there, are the stages comprised of? Of how many purities and how many limbs are the stages comprised? The ten stages. You have taught ten stages, now I ask you, of how many purities and how many limbs are these stages comprised?

[06:43]

And he also asks, after that he asks, and why are the stages given the names that you gave them? He asks that. And I would say today, as to the Buddha's response to these questions about the ten stages, like how many purities, how many limbs, and why did you name him that, I would refer you to the sutra. Also, I offer for your perusal some lovely diagrams, giving you some sense of the analysis that's presented in the sutra. It's over there. You can look at that. But there are some things which I would like to mention about this chapter. Some things which I think will very likely give you some illumination

[07:52]

into the process of enlightenment that goes on when you're still and silent. I really must say a few things. So, the first thing I want to mention is that after the questions which I just brought up, then Amalokiteshvara asked the Buddha, about how many types of ignorance or delusion are there in these ten stages? How many types of ignorance disease are encountered and dealt with in these ten stages? And how many types of errant tendencies are dealt with in these ten stages? Actually, I should say eleven stages. There's ten bodhisattva stages and one Buddha stage.

[08:57]

So there's eleven stages. So the Buddha says for these eleven stages there's twenty-two types of ignorance or delusion that are dealt with and eleven types of errant tendencies. And again, I'm not at this time going to go into what the twenty-two types of ignorance are. I just briefly mentioned to you that at each stage two of the ignorances are cured. In the first stage two are cured and so on. So all 22 are cured or alleviated in the process of the bodhisattva career. And all 11 of the errant tendencies are healed and cured in the process too. But what I'm bringing this up for is to say that the reason that the Buddha mind is in fact divided into different dimensions or departments of concern is because there's a variety of types of ignorance that it deals with.

[10:11]

Because there's these different types of ignorance, there's different stages and different practices to deal with them. And these ignorances are dealt with in a certain order. You can't deal with the ignorances of the tenth stage on the first stage. You have grosser ignorances to deal with first. And the grosser ignorances, when you hear about them, or read about them, you'll realize that will take many lifetimes. The first two will be plenty for me for quite a while. In the realm of simply being ourselves, there are some ignorances which are very challenging. Even the first gross ones are quite challenging. However, this is the realm of Buddha. Dealing with ignorance is our course of study. And we've got basically 22 types to deal with. And it's good to start with type 1 and 2 first.

[11:16]

So this question of Avalokiteshvara which leads to a lovely discourse on the different types of ignorance. The main thing that I feel about it is this shows why this is the reason that there exist stages of evolution is that certain problems are dealt with first and there's a variety of problems. So there's an order and structure to the evolution of the practice and all of this is going on in the context of simply being yourself. In the realm of just sitting, of being still, and learning to be yourself, the process of learning to be yourself has innumerable practices, involves innumerable practices, or innumerable ways of training ourselves to be ourself.

[12:53]

The strange thing about this bodhisattva career is that we need to be trained to be ourselves. Of course, we are ourselves already and yet we need to train to be ourselves. In reality, we are ourselves and yet we don't understand that without doing many kinds of practice. However, all the practices are about the same thing. studying the self, becoming thoroughly yourself and being relieved of all attachment to yourself. Abalokiteshvara asked the Buddha, what are the basic types of training? What are the basic types of practice? What are the basic precepts? How many basic precepts are there for the bodhisattvas?

[13:59]

And the Buddha says, there are six basic precepts for bodhisattvas. Six basic kinds of training. There's innumerable kinds of training, but they're all included under six basic types, which are called giving, ethical discipline, patience, enthusiasm, concentration, and wisdom. All the practices of bodhisattvas fall under those categories. Avalokiteshvara has heard the Buddha talk about these six modes of training before. So he's asking the Buddha again about them. And then he also mentions, how come you also taught three more of these basic kinds of training? These basic types of training, by the way, are called, in Sanskrit, paramitas, which means going beyond, that which goes beyond.

[15:07]

Transcendence. So they're... six kinds of practices which go beyond themselves, which don't even attach to themselves. In their fullness, they constantly transcend themselves. So they're called transcendent practices, they're called perfections. So the Buddha teaches six, and Avalokiteshvara says, but you also taught three more, making ten. How come? What about the additional three or four? And the Buddha basically says the additional four are actually already included in the first six. The additional four actually assist the previous six. So the additional four are skill and means, powers, vows and knowledges.

[16:11]

They assist the previous six. I believe the first one, skill and means, assists the first three paramitas. The first three paramitas of giving, ethical discipline and patience are actually, they all are kind of ethical, transcendent ethics. and skill and means assist those. Verse 3. And the next one, the powers assist the meditation and the vows assist enthusiasm and knowledges assist wisdom. So these are the six perfections. And then, of course, in this wonderful chapter, Avalokiteshvara says, how many kinds of each of the six?

[17:19]

And Buddha says, well, there's three kinds of each of the six. And again, if you want to know about the three kinds of each of these six, it says in the sutra and also on that chart. And then each of these types of each of the three has three aspects. So there's three times three times six, which is fifty-six? Fifty-four. Fifty-four. Twenty-seven times two? And then Avalokiteshvara asks other questions about these training methods. How many kinds of purity are there involved there? And it turns out that there's seven purities of each one of these six, and so on. which you can find out about. Which means you can find out about... You can check out the enlightened mind at home. Look inside and see how the parametres are going and the three aspects there and the three aspects of the three aspects.

[18:26]

You can just check it out. And you'll find out, I think, that... What would I say? It's a way to get to know yourself. It's a way to get to know your bodhisattva self. And then, you know, it's wonderful. I think it's really wonderful, these questions Avalokiteshvara asks about the training methods for bodhisattvas. But there's a couple questions I wanted to look at in some detail. One of them is, when Avalokiteshvara asked Buddha, he says, Bhagavan, why is it, or why do bodhisattvas deeply believe in these basic training methods, these paramitas, and have enthusiasm for them rather than for the pleasant fruits of them?

[19:31]

Why do the bodhisattvas in faith pursue these perfecting methods of training but do not pursue the agreeable rewards resulting from them? Why do bodhisattvas not abide in faith in the desirable fruits which result from the perfections in the same way that they abide in the perfections themselves. So in Zen Center we have the practice that our practice is just to be yourself. How do you be yourself? By practicing the six perfections. However, We practice this with no gaining idea.

[20:36]

We're not trying to gain anything from becoming ourselves. That's basically what this is about. They do these practices with enthusiasm. They practice giving, ethical study, patience, heroic effort, concentration of wisdom. They do these practices. They're devoted to these practices. but they're not devoted to the good results of these practices, and they don't abide in the good results that come from the practices. The good results do come from the practices, but that's not what they're pursuing. Why? Because they're bodhisattvas. They're not into gaining from the practice, from the supreme practice of bodhisattvas. How's the hearing going? Are you thinking? Okay. I'm getting it better.

[21:39]

Okay. Now, so the Buddha answers Avalokiteshvara. And in this sutra, Avalokiteshvara is in the form of a male. So he says, good son. Buddha also has good daughters, but this is a good son. And he says, good son, the cause of these basic practices of bodhisattvas is great compassion. The result is wondrous. There are five reasons or five causes for these bodhisattvas to not abide in the wondrous results of these practices, but only abide in the practice with no gaining idea. So now, this time I'm going to go into detail, if you're ready.

[22:46]

Number one, it is the perfections, not the rewards that are the cause of surpassingly great happiness and supreme joy and bliss. It's these practices that are the cause, not the rewards. Obviously, right, the rewards aren't the cause of great supreme happiness. It's the practice. So that's why they don't abide in the rewards. They abide in the practice. without attachment to the practice, because these practices go beyond themselves. So they abide in these practices by not abiding in them, which is why we call this place no abode, to remind you to practice the bodhisattva way without abiding in it. Forget about the results. Number two, they are causes of benefit. These practices are causes of benefit for oneself and other, and they are the cause of the ultimate benefit for everyone.

[23:56]

Number three, they bring about desirable, fruitional results in the future. Number four, they are the basis of non-affliction. Number five, they are, these practices are the unchangeable reality. These practices are not things that ultimately change or perish. So those are the reasons why bodhisattvas do not abide in the results of these practices, but only in the practices. And one more part that I want to mention to you about this chapter is I thought I brought it, but I don't see it.

[25:09]

I wonder where it is. Well, basically the question is this. Among these basic practices, which practice is the one which apprehends the lack of own being of all phenomena? Which is the one that grasps the lack of inherent existence of all things? Which is the one that grasps emptiness? And the Buddha answers, the perfection of wisdom grasps the lack of own being of all phenomena.

[26:11]

And then, Avalokiteshvara asks the question, well, is, you know, is there an own being? Is there something that inherently exists that grasps the lack of inherent existence? Which of these perfections grasps the fact that all things have no essence? The transcendental wisdom grasps that things have no essence. Is there an essence that grasps the lack of essence? is there an own being which grasps the lack of own being? And the Buddha said, I never taught that an own being grasps a lack of own being.

[27:21]

I never taught that. I don't say that that there's something that grasps the lack of inherent existence. I say perfection of wisdom grasps it, but I don't say that perfection of wisdom is something that is in essence that grasps things. And then he says, yet, since the lack of own being is individually known, inwardly known, without words, without being taught by words, I speak of in words, quotes, the apprehension of a lack of own being. So what is it that grasps a lack of own being?

[28:37]

What is it that grasps the ultimate truth? I'm going to tell you the name of it. It's called the perfection of wisdom. But this lack of own being cannot be taught by the words I just said or any other words. It can be known inwardly. It can be grasped by wisdom. But it is known without words, and it cannot be taught with words. Therefore, I use words to tell you about this. I use words to tell you about this and I use words to tell you that words will not get it. I'm wordily telling you that words will not reach it. So when you look for it, when you look inwardly to find the ultimate truth, when you look inwardly to invite the perfection of wisdom to grasp the ultimate truth, don't use words to know it.

[29:49]

Only use words to send you into your training to be yourself. When I look into my own mind, by the way, just for your information, when I look into my own mind and I think of the six perfections of the bodhisattva, the six basic kinds of practice. And then I remembered that Avalokiteshvara asked, how many kinds of each are there? And I look inside and I say, oh, how many kinds of giving are there? Well, there's three kinds. Giving of material things, giving of fearlessness, and giving of the teachings, the dharma. When I look inwardly, which I just did, and then I could tell you this, I learned something about me.

[31:02]

Now, when you look in, you might not be able to find the three kinds because you haven't read the sutra enough times. But if you do, then when you look inside, you'll find that you know that there's three, and that's you. Now, each of the three has three, so what are the three material gifts? What are the three dharma gifts? And what are the three kinds of fearlessness? There's three of those. If you learn them, then you will be able to be the person who has learned them, and you will be able to check to see if you're that person. So I'm checking now, and I'm not the person I used to be. who, when he looked to see what are the three types of material gifts, there was an answer of three types of material gifts. But today there isn't that answer.

[32:06]

Or you could say, I don't remember what they are. The person I am who does not remember what those three kinds are. But this afternoon I probably will remember. I'll be that person and I'll check and find out that that's the person I am because I'm going to go look at the sutra and find out what the three are. I'm going to train myself to be a person who knows in detail, who knows something about these practices. At least I know 54 things about these practices. And not just 54, though. I want to know more. I want to know what the seven kinds of purity of these practices are. I want to know in myself the names of the activities of enlightenment that are going on in me.

[33:17]

These teachings that help me get to know the enlightenment that's living in me right now. they're a tour guide or they're a map into your enlightened mind. And if you go in there and look, you might find, well, I know the names of these things, but I can't find them all. Matter of fact, sometimes I find the opposite of them. But finding the opposite of them in detail is getting closer to finding them. than not even looking to see are these practices of bodhisattvas living in you. And once again I propose to you that all these practices are going on within unconstructed stillness. These are practices of immediate realization. You don't have to move to find them. They are going on in us right now.

[34:19]

We can inwardly know them without words. So that's my attempt to pay homage and make a little comment on the wonderful chapter of Avalokiteshvara's questions in the great scripture of elucidating the deep intimacy of the Buddhist teaching. And you might not have to hear from me about this for a while again. But there is one more chapter.

[35:22]

But I'm not ready to talk to you about it yet. It's the chapter of the questions of Manjushri Bodhisattva. And they're about the duties of the Buddhas. This Buddha's job description. Yes, does someone have their hand raised? Yes, Breck? I think you said that the perfection of wisdom prevents the lack of all meaning. Or apprehends it. Or realizes it. Realizes it, yes. And what does unconstructed stillness mean as opposed to constructed stillness? Well, actually, maybe it's better to say there's stillness, but it's not a constructed stillness. And there's a stillness which includes an unconstructedness. So, for example, you being you is not constructed.

[36:28]

You're constructed. I'm constructed. But you being you is not constructed. Can I have a little more? I think I can understand why you might want a little bit more, but this particular topic will not allow you to have any more. You're not going to get any more about being unconstructed. You have to like just not have any way to get at, you cannot get at you being you. There's no way for you to make you being you. The fact of you being you is not constructed. You are constructed, you are compounded, you are fabricated. I am fabricated. Is that equivalent to delusion? Is what equivalent? Is constructiveness equivalent to illusion?

[37:30]

Yeah. So it's the delusion of thinking I am an entity separately, etc. That's a particular delusion, is to think you're an entity existing separately. That's a particular delusion. Is that a type of construction as well? It's a construction, it's a mental construction. But there's other ways we're constructed too which aren't necessarily delusions, but just the way we're put together. Even if the way you're put together is not seen as independently existing, still just the actual composition of you, depending on other things, is a kind of construction. But that being the way it is, things being the way they are, is not a construction. So that unconstructedness and stillness is immediate realization. As opposed to contrived stillness, yeah.

[38:34]

It's the stillness that you have without, well, without moving, without doing anything. It's being yourself without moving someplace else to be yourself. Daryl? Darren? Darren? Pardon? You're welcome. And it's kind of a signpost for me to help me understand more about the becoming of self and becoming the mind that we've perhaps met a lot of times. So, thank you. You're welcome. I think one interesting thought or question came up for me... By the way, I don't know if the tape recorder picked this up, but somebody thought this was an interesting talk. And his name is Darren. And now he has a question, which he's going to ask for the welfare and happiness of many people.

[39:40]

Right? Yes. Okay. What is the question, Darren? I'm saying this nice and loud so Roberta can hear, right? Okay. Okay. So the question pertains to perhaps the existence of my understanding or knowledge or apprehension of God. Okay, the question is about the apprehension of God or the knowledge of God. And in particular I understand it from your talk, which I understand from other sources too, the Buddha does not talk about a And I'm trying to determine whether you used a one being or a being that is able to apprehend the emptiness. Okay, so let me say this again, that Darren is saying that the Buddha did not talk about a being that apprehends emptiness or apprehends ultimate truth.

[40:50]

I think that's what I'm trying to say, and for me that raised the prospect of... But let me just say something about that, okay? Just a second, okay? So, a being, what is a being? A being is something that exists, I would say. Does that work for you? A being is an existent, something that exists. The Buddha actually did talk about a being that apprehends. ultimate truth, apprehends the lack of own being of things. The Buddha did talk about that. And he called that being wisdom, perfect wisdom. But he didn't, but then somebody says, is that which grasps the lack of own being, is that an own being? And he said, I don't teach that this being which grasps this wisdom, this wisdom being, this wisdom being which could be a bodhisattva, or a Buddha.

[41:51]

I do not teach that this wisdom being is an own being that grasps the lack of own being. So Buddha wouldn't teach that there's a God or a Bodhisattva or a Buddha that is an own being that grasps the lack of own being. It is a being, otherwise wisdom wouldn't exist. It is a being. Wisdom is a being, but it's not a being that has its own being. Sophia, the Western word for wisdom, Sophia is a very elusive creature. Wisdom is, you can't find wisdom. You can't get a hold of her. She is ungraspable. But she who is ungraspable can grasp the fact that all things are ungraspable. So she is a being, but she has no more own being than the thing she understands, than the lack of own being which she understands.

[42:57]

In some ways it seems that our natural tendency to construct duality in apprehending that there's emptiness. There's a natural tendency to duality. The mind naturally breaks itself into apprehender and apprehended. It's a natural part of our the kind of beings we are. We're predisposed to make the world a dualistic place. And Buddhism doesn't argue with that. It studies the process of duality to become free of it. So Buddha did not have a god who is outside of causation. who knows causation. The Buddhas are totally included in causation and realize causation. There's no prime mover outside the universe.

[44:05]

There's no cause of causation in Buddhism. But in Christianity there's a cause of causation. There's a cause of creation. There was a guy who gave a speech at Obama's inauguration a Christian, I guess, fundamentalist guy from L.A. area, who starts out by basically saying, God is the creator of creation. So, yes. As I understand that teaching, would it, in a sense, be saying that any discussion or exploration of such a thing may or may not be useful for understanding the path to enlightenment. I think the may be useful, he didn't emphasise much. He mostly said it wasn't useful. He was open to the possibility that at the point of enlightenment,

[45:07]

Is that understanding or apprehension that there may be more to that story? Yeah, I think leaving open the possibility that there's more to the story is something that is given to you at the point of enlightenment. But prior to that, it's kind of a distraction. So, you know, at the point of enlightenment you might actually understand what God was. But to try to understand it before you get there, may distract you from dealing with delusion. Like, I don't have time for this delusion, I'm like into God. So we don't want to use God as an excuse to not face our, you know, be ourselves. And a lot of people do, they use religion, what do you call it, as a spiritual bypass, we have that term now? Use spiritual bypass means you don't have to deal with your delusion because you're concentrating on God. But I think, yeah, Buddha may know what God is, but not mention it to people because he or she doesn't want to distract people from studying themselves, looking into themselves and seeing, is practice going on here?

[46:21]

It may be one of the outcomes of the Bodhisattva path that the focus on practice rather than an outcome is more significant. Now, focus on the practice rather than the outcome and be open to the possibility that one of the outcomes might be that you get to be, you know, on intimate details with God. That you actually know what God is at the end of the course. As, you know, one of the things you get, one of the nice things to know. You'll also know how causation works and stuff like that. But to try to figure out causation at this point is not recommended. The Buddha said the way karmic causation works is basically inconceivable. He doesn't recommend you try to figure it out. He just says, listen to the teaching that action has consequence. So be careful of everything you do. and keep checking to see, are you doing things in conjunction with these training methods? And if you do, you will someday understand causation, but you won't understand it by trying to figure it out.

[47:26]

You'll understand it by being enlightened. Prior to that, trying to figure it out is trying to figure out something that's inconceivable. It's a waste of time. But it is good to try to figure out whether you're paying attention to what you're saying and what you're thinking and your body postures. That is a conceivable thing and that is encouraged. Yes, yes, and yes. Yes, yes, and yes. I don't know who's first. One. In the description of this process, and I think it's for the sake of making the description clear, it sounds like it's linear, but I'm imagining that it's not linear. the situation in which this occurs is not linear, but there is linearity within... Stillness isn't really linear.

[48:30]

You being you isn't really linear. It's not really non-linear, but you being you allows linear and non-linear things. In fact, we are beings And we live in a world that allows linear and non-linear. That's our life. We allow literal and non-literal, and not literal. This is part of what happens when you become yourself, is you allow all this to be, [...] to be. So there are linear aspects within non-linear body-mind. When you sand a table, a wooden table, if you start with really fine sandpaper, it's okay to start with fine sandpaper, but it's slower that way.

[49:34]

So if you start with rough sandpaper, you can smooth it out more quickly. However, when you smooth it out, you notice that there are scratches which you couldn't even see before until you got it somewhat smooth. Then you use a finer sandpaper and with the finer sandpaper you see even finer scratches that you couldn't see before. Then you use a finer sandpaper and the finer the sandpaper the more you discover even more and more subtle scratches. But you could start with fine sandpaper and just keep sanding with fine sandpaper. But the same thing would occur if you started with fine sandpaper. It would just take longer. But still, as you use fine sandpaper, the rough scratches would be removed eventually. So actually, I'm not... I've just discovered something by talking to you that you can start with fine sandpaper on rough material. It'll just be much slower, probably.

[50:40]

And you'll wear out more pieces of fine sandpaper. But you can eventually take out the rough scratches with fine sandpaper. It is really slow. But after you take out the rough, you'll notice subtle scratches that you couldn't see before and so on. So there's a linearity. You can't find the most subtle attachments, the most subtle ignorances before you deal with the grosser ones. So there's a linearity there. You can't notice the most subtle attachments until you deal with the grosser attachments. But when you do deal with the grocery attachment, your reward is, oh my God, I see new problems I didn't even know I had. And then you take care of these problems you didn't know you had. Your reward is to find a whole other set of problems that you didn't know you had. So you keep getting rewarded with more problems by solving your problems. By taking care of your problems, you get more awareness of problems. But there's an end. It's not endless.

[51:42]

It's possible to finally get down to the most subtle attachments and ignorances. But there's a kind of linearity to it. But the linearity is not... The idea that the linearity is a reality is one of the delusions. It's not really linear because there's no... There's no own being to linear and there's no own being to non-linear. There's no own being to the path to the evolution of bodhisattva. There's no own being to any of this. There's no essence to any of it. But there's a linear progression in getting into the different layers of our belief that there is an essence. There's 18 kinds of emptiness Because there's 18 kinds of belief in essence or on being.

[52:43]

It seems to me like sometimes I have a good day and I get a little ahead of myself. Sometimes you have a good day and what? I get maybe a little ahead of myself and then I have a bad day and I have to go back to... Yeah, that's the problem with good days. One of the problems of good days is we get a little ahead of ourselves. One of the good things about bad days is we sometimes don't get ahead of ourselves. We say, uh-oh, I'm in trouble. I should deal with this. This getting ahead of myself is not good. I've got a problem. I've got to take care of this. And it's a bad day. I have to have this bad day. This is not time to skip ahead of this bad day. I've been skipping ahead because I had some good days. And now as a result, I think I'm having a bad day because I don't know exactly which good days I skipped ahead, but I think I kind of did skip ahead of my karma.

[53:50]

And I think I understand that when we skip ahead of our karma, we get in trouble. Now I'm in trouble, but now I remember the teaching. Oh yeah, I'm not supposed to be skipping ahead, so now I won't. And I understand that practicing this way eventually will lead to supreme benefit. But I'm not into the supreme benefit, I'm into the practice of not getting ahead of myself. And a bad day is a nice reminder. So today is really kind of a bad day. So it's a good day to practice, right, Ceci? Yes, what's your question? My question... Or what's the question? My question was about the trajectory of the bodhisattva stages of development you talked about. And when you mentioned that there were 10 stages, but actually there was 11.

[54:52]

I had the image of a elevator that They moved up to a penthouse, more like 10 floors. And I was thinking a similar image when you talked about there being 10 perfections. but the last four were incorporated in the first six. Right. And if there's a different interpretation of that, if we see the Bodhisattva going through these stages of the first six perfections to wisdom, if there's a sense like Ananda here that goes to the sixth floor, that the last four, the powers, the vows, the... knowledge is, and the skill and means? It's actually the elevator going down, in a sense. Because we have this image of the philosophical outcome back. And coming back with wisdom now into those other five perfections, recast as knowledge, as powers, as skills and means.

[55:55]

You can see it that way, that's fine. It's kind of nonlinear, too. Yes, Oma. I have a question regarding for knowledge and wisdom. And my question is, when I... To me, wisdom is this pulse, it's a pulsation. And that knowledge is information. Yeah, you could say knowledge is like information. You could kind of see it that way. That's one way to see it is that you've got wisdom and as a result of wisdom you get information. And you use that information to develop more wisdom.

[56:57]

Because in fact to some extent, the knowledge of the Buddhas has been conveyed to us as information to train us in wisdom. And then because of wisdom, more information comes, which then, that knowledge, which is not really, you know, knowledge is not necessarily something that is individually known. It's just something like in the world here. So the knowledge then can assist the continual process of wisdom going beyond itself. So the knowledge that you're also speaking, or it speaks in the sutras, is the wisdom itself? You could say it's the wisdom itself, or you could say it's... what's another way to put it? It's like knowledge is not... What's the word for it?

[58:02]

I always want to say knowledge is like non-conceptual. Yeah, it's like non-conceptual. But it's the result of wisdom which breaks through conception. So it assists in the ongoing development of wisdom. This tenth perfection assists the sixth perfection. The sixth perfection is really the center of the whole thing, the center of the whole bodhisattva practice. The other five are really unfoldments of perfection of wisdom. And the last four assist the sixth. But the knowledge assists wisdom. So the information that you get, in a way, from the things you know as a result of wisdom, contribute to the evolution of wisdom.

[59:06]

Like, wisdom isn't to know that you shouldn't get stuck in wisdom. That's something you find out when you're wise. And you can find out before you're wise, too. But that information from the Buddhas that you shouldn't hold on to wisdom, that that's antithetical to wisdom, helps wisdom not get stuck in itself, and so on. There are teachings, in other words, of the Buddhas, which are given to us in the form of knowledge which help us develop wisdom. And they're included in wisdom. And these teachings, this knowledge, this information is non-conceptual. You may know it conceptually, but it's non-conceptual. And wisdom is non-conceptual too, this wisdom is, but it's more like the process by which you are no longer, what do you call it, by which you know that things are innocent of conception.

[60:09]

It's the breaking through to how things are not reached by words. just like this knowledge which apprehends the lack of own being, words do not know this and words do not teach you how to get there. But words can, once you get there, words then are part of the process so that the Buddha uses words then to teach the wisdom. But then also there are times that I hear the words and the words itself It will take me there. It will take me to that place of stillness. Well, good. I'm glad they do. Yes. I've heard that Sister Kikuchi once said something about the problems you have now you'll have for the rest of your life.

[61:11]

I don't know if he said that or if he said you should think that the problems you have now, you'll have for the rest of your life. Yeah, or the problems you have now, you know, you should be ready to have them forever. Because in some sense, I think I was there when he said it. I think it's more like, not that you will have these problems, but you should expect or you should be open to always having these problems. No, and we know what the end will be. The end will be when all beings are Buddhas. When all beings are free, that will be the end. And this is the path to that end. The other way, there's no end.

[62:14]

There is no end to suffering. The path of suffering, the path of delusion, has no end. The path of avoiding studying yourself, that's an endless path of suffering. This path is a path which is quite long, but there is an end to it. but it's quite long, but you can be happy that you're on the path of benefiting beings. What's the relationship of long and sudden? What's the relationship of long? What's the relationship of long? Long and sudden. It's suddenly long. Yes, Maria?

[63:20]

I'm wondering about this non-gaming practice, because I don't know of anybody who can do it, actually, for a very short time. And I wonder if that teaching really applies to the human of the species. To the what of the species? The humans that we are. Oh, to the human species? Maybe the animals and the spirits are doing it. Maybe the cats do their leg with that. But they have some kind of a... To me, they look like they've got... I mean, my dog definitely is gaining idea. I mean, I project that on her. That might be my projection. But it seems like they are all in the flow of this universal black that seems like it has a directionality.

[64:28]

And so the species that we see physically are just going in direction with that naturally. But because we have an intellect, we think things. And I really don't know if this teaching of non-practicing without this non-abiding really, really applies to me. I have actually never seen it and felt it. I've never felt it and I've never really seen it demonstrated. So you're talking about non-abiding or are you talking about not being into gain? Which one or both? Both. So you haven't seen any non-gaining stuff going on? Okay. So, can you aspire to something that you haven't seen? Well, I... It's hard, isn't it? ...based on, like, states of relaxation where, you know, everybody here has had that experience of expansiveness, and that you have that sense of, like, yeah, I think I can just kind of float along here.

[65:39]

But actually, we want it. We want to be, even if that statement, we want something, even just being there, we want something there too. Maybe. That may be the case. It's just, it's very relaxed. That may be the case. And if that's the case, then allowing that to be the case would be part of no gaining idea. And then the next moment, and then the next moment. Yeah, but before the next moment, now, now I would allow that there's a gaining idea. And allowing that right now goes with not having a gaining idea. There may be this sneaky little gaining idea there, but I'm kind of like, okay, you're welcome here, sneaky little gaining idea. What's the other thing? Abiding, attaching. So again, I saw some examples of people relating in a way that I wanted to learn to be.

[66:42]

Okay? I saw an example, an image. I saw an image of a way of being a human. And I thought, I would like to be a human like that. Now that human that I wanted to be like, looked like, he was acting like, No gaining idea. I didn't think of it in that way. But now when I look at him, he wasn't into gaining idea. That was, I didn't see it operating. But all I knew was that was, that's the way I want to be. I want to be cool like that. So when he was falsely accused of a crime, he said, is that so? And then he had to deal with the consequences of this false accusation, and he dealt with them in a compassionate way. He didn't defend himself, he didn't argue, he just said, is this happening? This seems to be happening. I'm being insulted and despised and attacked.

[67:47]

That's happening. This is my life. Then that was the first part of the story. Then he takes care of the situation. Then the second part of the story is people find out that he wasn't guilty of this crime and they come back to him and they say, you're such a wonderful person because not only did you not do the crime, but you didn't defend yourself and you took care of the situation. And then he said the same thing. So this is happening. This is my life. So when I saw that story, I thought, I want to be like that. That's the way. Did it really happen? I'm not saying it really happened. I'm not saying it really happened. I'm not saying it really happened. I'm saying that's the way I want to be. And you say, well, see, there's a gaining idea there. But I want to be a way that will allow me to have a gaining idea. But not be caught by it. This guy was not caught by it. I want to be like that. If there's no gaining idea, I'm cool with that.

[68:51]

If there's a gaining idea, I'm cool with that. That's the way I want to be. Is there anybody like that? I don't care. I still want to be that way. I saw this movie one time. It was about King Arthur. You know that King Arthur, that English king? So King Arthur had... After being King Arthur and having this nice court with the brown table and everything... and the shining armor, and Xavier, and pulling stones out of rocks. After that, he had some psychological work to do called seeking the grail. He had to do the feminine thing. After doing the masculine thing very nicely, he had to do the feminine thing. And so here he is, he's going through the filthy, you know, muddy, sewage, sewage-polluted streets of a medieval town in the dark, you know, all in rags with a few, with his agitia, with his attendants, the few raggedy-taggedy

[70:01]

monks, knights that are still with him. And he's limping, you know, he's wounded. He's limping through the mud and the shit. And he runs into a little boy and he says, hello, young guy. Hello, mister. Then the king actor says, what do you want to be when you grow up? And the boy says, I want to be a knight like King Arthur. And King Arthur says, why do you want to be a knight? And the boy said, because of the stories. So we live in story land, you live in story land, and you're in a certain story land, and there's some other stories, and you could aspire to these stories, or some other stories.

[71:08]

So we're talking about the bodhisattva story is quite a story. And key to the story is no gaining idea, just loving the practice, and not abiding even in the practice. That's key to this story. Do you like that story? Do you need proof that there's... Do you need to see that there's somebody who's practicing this way? If you need the proof, I hope you get it. Some people have not seen it, absolutely for sure, but they still want to try it. However, it is recommended that you open your mind to the possibility that there are such people. The Buddha taught, right view is, there are beings who have followed the path and realized the way. So open to that suggestion that it is possible, even if you haven't seen them. Have you seen them?

[72:11]

Have I seen them? Nope. But I still want to be like them. Be like this ideal. I want to be like the ideal. And I also understand that the teaching includes that along with this ideal, right next to this ideal is not the ideal. Right next to this Great virtue is non-virtue. Right next to this wish to be like those stories, to be like that person, right next to that aspiration is interest in non-virtue, is lack of interest in it. They coexist. in the human realm. You have the aspiration to be this wonderful bodhisattva along with an imperfect human. We do not have a teaching here that we have aspiration of perfect people to be perfect.

[73:18]

We have that imperfect people are aspiring to complete, perfect, unsurpassed awakening for the welfare of others. We already know that some imperfect people wish to have supreme enlightenment for themselves. But how about imperfect people wishing for enlightenment for the welfare of others? It's proposed that this can happen to an imperfect person, that they can wish to live this way. And if there's a gaining idea, fine. That's part of their imperfection. And they can aspire to no gaining idea simultaneous with having a gaining idea. So if you haven't seen anybody who's perfect, maybe that's okay. All you can see maybe is people who are imperfect who are aspiring to perfection. And part of aspiring to perfection is to be willing to be imperfect, to be

[74:22]

if you excuse me for saying so, really good at being imperfect. I mean, like really being generous towards your imperfection, really being ethical with your imperfection, really being patient with your imperfection, really being enthusiastic about being ethical and so on with your imperfection, being calm with your imperfection and being wise about your imperfection because this whole thing leads to understanding that imperfection does not have an own being and neither does perfection. And when that's the case, you're not necessarily interested in being the perfect one. And you're not particularly interested in being the imperfect one. But you'll be the imperfect one if it helps people. And if it helps people to be the perfect one, I'll be that way for a little while too. And you can check it out to see if this path is commensurate with

[75:27]

a tremendous joy at the opportunity of practicing it. Because that's part of it, is you've got to have a lot of joy in order to do this amazing path. I have seen people who have a lot of joy. I have seen wonderful things happen, but perfect people... Well, again, I've told this story. One of the first talks I heard Siddhartha Maharishi give, he said, blah, blah, blah, blah, I'm not enlightened. And I thought, uh-oh. I came, I left my life in Minnesota and came to Zen Center to study with this person and he's not enlightened. Uh-oh. But then I thought, but still he's the best I've ever seen. The best I've ever seen, that was good enough for me. The next week he said, I'm Booyah.

[76:29]

And I thought, more like it. So, I'm not enlightened. I'm imperfect. I'm Buddha. Just kidding. I'm joyful. Just kidding? Well, yes, I'm just kidding because I'm also suffering. But I'm joyful that I can live joyfully in the midst of suffering. that I can be not afraid of suffering or at least not as afraid as I was before. And after practicing for a while I'm encouraged and I intend to continue. And you are welcome to walk along with me. And if I walk too slowly, go ahead. I have your back, as they say. It's okay. I'm shuffling. Okay. Well, thank you so much for... Yes, Breck?

[77:33]

There's a story I'd like to share before we end. Oh, go ahead, Breck. The story is that... Sing it loud so that... The story is... Yeah, there you go. About 67 years and 7 days ago... Oh, how nice. Someone was born... And so today, during the day, we'll have treats at the end of lunch in celebration of this birth, the anniversary of this birth. Okay. I thought you were going to say, in celebration, we'll have treats at 7-Eleven. I think it's nicer to have them here. Thank you. And I also mentioned that in 1967 I first went to Tassajara. And my teacher died when he was 67. And now I'm 67. So this is a very poignant year for me to think of when I first went to Tassajara.

[78:39]

And this is the age, I'm the age that my teacher died. My teacher was 39 years older than me. And it's been 39 years since my teacher died. I should say, since our teacher died. Our teacher died when he was my age. So this will be a nice year for me to think about dying and be full of joy of following this amazing ideal for 43 years or so. Thank you very much. May the heart of Jesus

[79:22]

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