Is there anything you'd like to converse about? Yes and yes and yes. So much of the conversations that we have are generated by our baggage and our habits And I wonder if you have any practical advice for helping with our speech. Habits of speech that might not lead to positive conversations. Or you want to hear about the things that don't lead to positive conversations? Is that right? Yeah. I'm exhaling now.

[01:18]

And before that I noticed I was inhaling. I think when I forget to listen, I think that that is, what do you call it, missing part of my responsibility in a conversation. So part of unskillful conversation, I guess, is for me to forget listening. Sometimes listening is listening to silence so that the other person can have some silent time. They don't have to be talking all the time. I could let them be quiet for a while. I just thought of, I was on the radio one time with Michael Krasny. Was it called Forum?

[02:22]

And then we were talking and then during the breaks he said, you know, it was discussing so-called spiritual practices or something. And he was saying, he says, of course on the radio silence is deadly. Because if you're silent on the radio, people think they lost the station, and they changed the station. So it's hard to have a certain kind of conversation on the radio, because it's got to be right away, right? So I think giving the other, after you're done talking, giving them some space, or after they're done talking, give them some space in case they're not done. and also listen to yourself. So not listening to yourself, to the tone of your voice, not giving your own contribution space and silence and not giving the other person.

[03:28]

That would be sort of, generally speaking, not skillful conversation. Another thing about not skillful, again not listening to myself, would be maybe not to hear that the tone of my voice is not, I don't know what, not sweet, not kind. So to listen to my voice or to not listen to my voice is like I think missing an opportunity that would be helpful to the conversation. Another thing about listening is listening for the timing. When is the right moment to say the next word? And sometimes there can be a high speed interchange and it can be really lovely.

[04:38]

But sometimes if you're not listening, you're getting ahead of the other person. Or you're getting behind them because you're not listening. Buddha gave some recommendations about speaking. He said, before you speak, look to see if what you're saying is true. And that's a pretty big order, but in other words, don't say things that are just hearsay. If you hear something before you tell somebody what you heard, maybe make some effort to find out if that was true or if it was just you know, an unverified opinion or something. So check to see if it's true on the conventional level. And that might mean a lot of stuff you hear you can't start talking about for a while.

[05:47]

You'd have to do some fact checking. I don't know what. So then a number of interesting comments you have maybe shouldn't be made. But even your own perspectives, you know, it might be true that you have this perspective on a person. I sometimes have perspectives on people. I see them do something, and it looks a certain way to me. But then the next, and I think that is how I see them. And I could tell someone, I see this person this way. And that would be kind of true as my view. But then the next criterion after, is it true, like, is it true for you that you think such and such? The next question is, is it beneficial? And for example, if you see a person a certain way, it's possible that you would tell someone else or even that person, but it might not be beneficial.

[06:53]

It might not be beneficial to tell the person your view of them or tell someone else your view of them, even though you say, this is my view. This person is confused. This person acts confused. You might feel that way. But it might not be beneficial to tell someone else. But it might be. It might be, you know, someone may say, how's that person doing? Well, I feel that they're kind of confused. I'm not sure that they're clear about whether they should do such and such a job, which we're talking to them about. We offered them this job, and they don't seem to be clear about whether they are ready to do that work. And in that case, stating that they're confused, and you could even say to them, you say, I don't feel like you're clear about whether you want to do this work. And that might be quite helpful for them to hear that you feel like they're not clear. But you could also say someone's confused in a way that doesn't seem to be beneficial.

[08:03]

Like people might think less of them if you told them. Or they might feel disrespected. But I think someone could say to me, you seem to be confused about such and such. I have this view and I might find that quite helpful. And then the third point is, is it the right time? Because sometimes you have something that seems to be true, would be helpful, but it's not the right time because the person's pouring hot liquids or something or they're juggling three balls or they have a headache So it's not a good time. Or a bunch of other people are around, and to say something which might be helpful to them if they were alone might not be helpful if people are watching. So when's the right time? And now might not be the right time. Those are some positive guidelines to conversation.

[09:13]

Yes? So as often happens when I'm listening to your thoughts, I'm going along and I feel like I understand. Cool. But then something happens and it changes. In this case today, you posed the question, is there still And it made me think about stillness, which we tend, I think, in use of language, through associating with sound, maybe visual. And certainly there was quiet in the room, and at least within my sight range, I didn't see a lot of movement or anything. But then I thought about the clamp in my leg, And I thought about the tension from the cramp in my stomach and the labored breathing because of the cramp that was affecting my stomach.

[10:25]

And I thought, okay, maybe everybody else is in absolute stillness. Or in their conversation with stillness, the stillness is more predominant, let's say. But in my case at that moment, there wasn't a lot of stillness, or the stillness wasn't the predominant part of my conversation. And that led me to think how deaf I am sometimes to all the other aspects of stillness because of this crude idea that's just sound and visual. And I wonder if you could talk a little more to stillness. when you were first talking about the cramp in the leg and the abdominal response, and, you know, it sounded like kind of like a churning situation, like kind of rough water.

[11:30]

And I thought of the example of surfing. Now, some people go, what do they call the paddle boards? They go out on smooth surfaces and paddle on these boards that look like surfboards. And they actually, if you watch them, they look quite still. You know, the water's kind of still and they're moving their arms. But then maybe they're actually just standing and gliding for a while. So they look still. But if you go out on the beach here, when the waves are big and you watch the surfers, the waters is changing at a very high intensity level of impermanence on the shape of those waves. But sometimes the people are standing on their surfboard and the surfboard is also moving at a very intense, in a very intense way, moving in many different directions at once.

[12:35]

And yet the surfer sometimes is able to stand upright and balanced in that situation. So there is a kind of stillness there in their presence with this very dynamic situation. They're able to be still with this change and [...] this change. So it might be possible that you could be still with cramp in the foot, you know, you're right there. Abdominal response, you're right there, and you're not trying to get away from it, you're not trying to control it, you're just trying to be with it and stay upright as your body goes through all these changes. And in a way, when there's a cramp, you actually are right there experiencing the cramp. And you're not someplace else. But you could miss that you are actually right there with the cramp.

[13:40]

And then another part of your body, or simultaneously even, another part of your body tenses up. And you're right there. You are that person. And you being that person, just as you are, you don't have to move to be that person. Matter of fact, if you move, you might miss that you are actually that person. You are actually still. So that's why you don't really make yourself still. Like if you have a cramp, you don't make the cramp still. The cramp may go away, but at the moment the cramp's cramping. You're right there. You are right there with the cramp. And you are remembering that. You're remembering, oh, I'm still. It's a painful thing I'm still with. And then you actually receive the stillness. It's being given to you. You didn't make yourself be completely the person you are.

[14:44]

Everything supports you to be this person. That's why, actually, you can't get away from stillness. You are actually completely the person you are. But you can forget it and you can forget to receive it. But if you can remember, be mindful, and receive, then you can practice it. And you can practice being still with the cramp. And also with the comment. It's really hard to be really here and not try to get away from this cramp. It's really hard to be present and compassionate to this cramp. I keep getting distracted into trying to make it go away. But again, that's just another thing to be kind to, the wish to get away from it. Nothing really takes you away from yourself. Everything supports you to be yourself. That's your stillness. But it's a challenge to train yourself to be mindful

[15:51]

and remember the stillness of your nature, that you are actually this person right now, this way. And then that opens up to this person you are is actually also others. And then you open up to the conversation. So you are this person, And you being you is stillness. And that's part of your job is to remember you being you. That's your job. It's not my job to remember you being you. My job is to remember me being me. And then that opens unto that I'm me and I'm you. And we are a conversation. stillness of the entire assembly in your conversation in supporting our understanding.

[16:59]

Yes. We call that, also we call that stillness Dharma position, the true position we're in. We are always in our Dharma position. And we have, and we can respond to that by accepting that responsibility to be where we are. And it's not just to be where we are for ourself, but to be where we are to accept everybody's support and to be where we are from where we support everybody else. We don't support people from being somebody else. We all support everybody else from being ourselves. And we also are not supported by everybody else to be somebody else. We are supported by everybody to be ourselves. We're supported to be still. And our stillness is the place, the way from which we support everybody else. That's going on all the time. It's a matter of remembering it.

[18:01]

And it's hard to remember it as you get flipped through the air off your surfboard. But some surfers, I think, even when they get flipped, as they're flying through the air, they're still, too, because they're so trained at staying present with their body and mind in this world. And we're all going to get tossed through various flips and turns. It's coming to us, but we can train to be present with it. which is actually trained to remember that we are present. So again, I tend to slip into be present or be still, but really it's remembering it. I don't make myself be still, but I am made to be still. And I can remember that. Yes and yes?

[19:05]

I won't be able to. The bridge is a conversation. And that conversation between delusion and awakening, that conversation is occurring in stillness. So I have to be still with my delusion. in order to open up to how that delusion is in conversation with awakening. So my question is awareness. How do I achieve that awareness? Because I find myself sometimes regretting, and I want to get rid of that regret feeling, because I find myself an hour later or four hours later, I should have said something. That's what I said. But at that moment, the awareness wasn't there.

[20:12]

The happiness was still there. The usual recommendation is not about getting rid of regret. The usual recommendation is confess the thing you regret and feel the regret. That's the traditional encouragement of the Buddhas. So I have a story about my granddaughter, which I'll put over here for the second and emphasize a more traditional teaching rather than her example. But anyway, the proposal is that if I can remember the things that I do, that I wish I had done differently or that I don't want to do anymore.

[21:13]

And if I confess them and if I feel regret, I express my regret. That twofold process of confessing that I missed a chance and expressing I regret that, that process melts away the root of transgressing into doing what I don't want to do. and that may be hard to believe, but that is a very frequently reiterated teaching of the tradition is to confess what we did in the presence of compassionate beings and also express, I feel regret or I feel sorry. And that process is the process of enlightenment. in not getting rid of the regret, but becoming liberated from behaviors that we regret.

[22:19]

If we do something unkind, regret is our friend. Now, I think some people feel like, in this example of my granddaughter, she's recently been getting into intense regret about things like peeing in swimming pools. She's thinking about doing that and she's just feeling tremendous regret. And so much so that she almost like has what we call a meltdown. So I think part of your question might be, how can I not have such excessive regret that I can't even function? But again, I would say, like if she was having a meltdown around her regret, I would just try to be still with her. I wouldn't try to stop her from that regret.

[23:23]

I would just try to be totally present with her and show her that no matter how bad a thing she does, if she feels bad about it, I'm there feeling not bad about her feeling bad, but I'm feeling good about the way she is. And then she can, like, be still with the way she is and not be trapped by her regret. Regret is, I would say, a very helpful feeling to free us from slipping off of the path we want to walk. Looks like you have more question there. Are you OK? Or do you have another aspect that you want to bring up?

[24:25]

Yeah. So I'm not trying to get rid of regret. I'm trying to be still with regret, if it comes, and appreciate it. And if someone does something unskillful and doesn't feel regret, I want to be still with them not feeling regret, even though I think regret would probably be helpful to them. But they don't feel it yet. but then maybe they feel it an hour later. If we didn't feel uncomfortable when we do unskillful things, it might not. Well, like psychopaths, they don't feel uncomfortable when they are cruel. Yes. In this end of this conversation, we have this very important occasion because we are alive to be part of this conversation, and to witness it, and to do our due diligence.

[25:55]

And there are nanoseconds when I am aware of so-and-so. And I say nanoseconds, because it's genuinely a great freedom. I've been trying for one day, I don't know, a whole time, anything but three days. I'm trying to... that stones reveal itself, things that are hidden in a way that seems to undo it. And my question to you is, has anyone before announced a limit to the breadth of stones? And without animating or creating emotion around it, is there a joy inherent in that space, whether you're in the solution or not?

[27:04]

Is there a peaceful sense of that? And whether or not you're in the solution, Has anyone reported an end to stillness? I think that ordinary limited consciousness reports the end of stillness quite frequently. And those who are thoroughly responsible and compassionate to the place where the limits of stillness are being reported, that compassion opens the door to an unlimited stillness. unlimited stillness.

[28:05]

In other words, the unlimited stillness is pervading the place where the person feels the stillness is limited. This isn't stillness. There's no stillness here. And the actual stillness is right there. And if I'm really kind to the no stillness, to the tumultuous chaos of consciousness, if I can be compassionate to that and be upright with that and have conversations with that, that conversation will realize that there is stillness right there and peace and joy right there. at the same time, and also that the peace and joy are not at all different from the limited, tumultuous, stressful world. That's already the case, that this great joy and peace is the same as all of our difficulties, the same, at the same time.

[29:13]

But if we're not kind to our difficulties, we close the door on this peace, even though it's right there, and this joy, peace and joy of infinite stillness. Infinite life is simultaneous with finite life and finite stillness and finite peace and finite joy. So we have finite peace, finite joy. And some people say, the peace is so finite I've never even seen it. That can happen. Within living memory, a person can never remember any stillness. But some of us can remember, yeah, when I was eight years old and I was standing in the parking lot, there was a moment of stillness and joy. I remember. That's an encouragement to me. Great. But now, right now, I don't see peace, I don't see joy, but there is a chance to remember stillness.

[30:20]

Even though I don't see it, I remember it and I receive what I don't even see. I don't see the stillness, but I say, welcome stillness. Please come and support me to practice you with this turmoil, to be compassionate with this turmoil. And through this compassion we realize that this turmoil is otherwise. It is actually the peace and joy. And then we would continue the practice of compassion towards the turmoil to continue the realization of the peace. But not by going away from the turmoil to the peace, or pushing the turmoil away to get peace, because that's more turmoil. What just popped in my mind was that cartoon, that Walt Disney cartoon of the sorcerer's apprentice. Did you ever see that? So he keeps trying to make the brooms go away, and then that makes more brooms.

[31:28]

The more we fight the turmoil, the more tumultuous. But simultaneously, while we're creating more and more tumult, peace and joy are not the least bit separate from that. We never destroy the opportunity for peace and joy. The opportunity is always there. If we would start remembering stillness and being with the Talmud and being still with it, we can start to have a conversation with it. The Talmud's actually inviting us to be kind to it. And if we then invite the Talmud to come into our life, it says, oh, thank you, you've heard me. It starts to calm down. And sometimes it says, well, actually, I'm not going to calm down. I'm going to get more tumultuous just to see if you'll welcome that too. And you say, I thought that might happen.

[32:35]

Yes, I'm ready for this. Please, you're welcome. You're welcome here. And also to be careful not to try to manipulate the Talmud, not to try to kill it. Don't dull yourself to it. Don't say bad things about it. Don't try to control it. Don't hate it. These are ways, again, to realize stillness with it, which is already there. and so on. Anything else you want to bring up? Yes, Brad. Are you using the terms meeting and conversation interchangeably? Yeah. Face-to-face meeting, face-to-face transmission, face-to-face conversation. Yes.

[33:41]

Because I'm not sure if the stillness have to be when you're still sitting or when you're still mentally, emotionally. but still moving your body, your physical body. More like teaching about being present, even if you're cutting vegetables. it had the feeling of stillness because you were there with the flexible. But because we are here in the Zen Center, every time I think about stillness, I think about all these people sitting and very quiet and not moving, like Bob said, struggling with the pain in the middle. And so I'm pretty sure, well, I'm not pretty sure, but I think what you mean is

[34:49]

Being present is almost the same as being still. I don't know if they're really any different. Being present is not so much an opinion Being still is not necessarily an opinion. So if I'm present with a carrot, stillness is there. Now what about if the carrot blows up? if I'm present with the explosion, stillness is there.

[35:52]

And in fact I am present with the explosion. So, the world of stillness includes the activity of the entire universe. which has exploding stars in it. So stillness includes the explosive, even violent activity of my mind. Stillness includes that. And that would also be able to be present. Being present is like remembering stillness with my active mind.

[36:59]

And again, active mind is one English expression. Another word is karmic mind. So a normal mind is where I'm doing things and I'm not doing things. And that can be relatively calm and relatively agitated. But still, as long as there's any activity, that's delusion. I'm there. It's there. I do it. There's agitation in that. Even if I feel kind of calm. In other words, I have the thought, I'm kind of calm. I am calm. It's somewhat agitating. When you're calm, when you realize calm, you can actually more easily see that when I, or I can more easily see that when I think I'm calm, that causes this illusion of agitation. agitation is a delusion, but it's a delusion that appears a lot.

[38:10]

What I'm talking about is remembering stillness when there's agitation. And also, if there's ever any stillness, remember stillness. Stillness doesn't have... one stillness, the stillness I'm trying to remember is a stillness that doesn't have a beginning or an end. It's the stillness which I'm remembering which is there when I think I'm still and when I think I'm agitated. It's a stillness which is present, not a stillness I make. I remember that stillness is present even when I have a stillness which just started and now just ended. oh, there wasn't stillness, now there is stillness, now there's not stillness, that appears in my mind. While that's appearing, the coming and going of stillness, I remember a stillness which doesn't come and go.

[39:16]

Now that I look at my mind and my body and I say, it's been a long time since I've seen any stillness around here. even so I'm remembering stillness. It's been so long since I've been calm and I can remember stillness. If that's the case, now I can see there's a conversation here between it's been so long since I was calm and somebody else is saying to me, you know, can I talk to you about that? And stillness supports me to say, yeah, what do you want to say? They might say, I'm that way too. Can I help you be that way more thoroughly? What are you saying? Are you talking about helping me be more thoroughly not calm? And they say, mm-hmm. When you're not calm and you're completely thoroughly not calm,

[40:25]

the door of realization opens. The door of realization is not calm, is not not calm. So you're free of not calm, but only by being completely not calm. And also, if you happen to be calm, you might not be interested in being free of that. But in stillness, if you're calm and you receive stillness and practice it, you realize that calm is not calm. That's the conversation which is the Buddha's teaching. So you don't get stuck in not calm or calm. and you're not stuck.

[41:29]

You're actually a conversation between calm and not calm. That's what you really are. It was almost like we concluded the conversation. But we didn't get fooled by that, did we? There's a certain, again, a certain habit in our mind is we sometimes want to complete conversations. And I sometimes say to people, do you feel complete? Maybe I'll stop that. What time is it now? Is that enough for this afternoon? I have a question. Yes. As I understood you, you said we are the finite and the infinite.

[42:34]

The calmness is infinite. We also, of course, can be the finite being. Yeah. But then there's a third element that walks us, you know, the finiteness and the infinity. Yeah, that's kind of like the conversation. That's the conversation. Yeah. We're not just infinite beings. and that we're not just finite beings. We are the conversation between them, which is, you know, watching the conversation. I watch how if I'm willing to really be a finite being, that means I really am compassionate towards the finite being, I start to realize this finite being's talking to somebody. It's talking to an infinite being who is teaching it. The infinite being is teaching the finite being to be completely finite. But finite beings are sometimes afraid of being finite. So it's teaching the fear of being finite to be kind, let the fear be fear.

[43:38]

I'm afraid to be finite. Oh, King, you can be afraid to be finite. You can regret being finite, and so on. Anyway, and we need to have a finite conversation to help us be wholeheartedly finite. And then we open to, actually this conversation's always been talking to another infinite presence at the same time, never not. But if we skip over our finite problems, we close the door on our infinite relationships. Thank you very much.

[44:18]

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