Yes? I started remembering and thinking about the fact that one of the symbols of Buddhism was the wheel, the turn that in first lecture was turned the darn wheel. And the idea that when you actually practice your Yeah, yeah. And the Sufi poet Rumi, he spun around while he was doing his talks. But whirling dervishes come from that, right? They spin around and they enter into wisdom by spinning. They also get dizzy. And in the Buddha Dharma we turn the wheel of Dharma. We don't shove it down people's throats. We say, here's the wheel of the Dharma. And the person takes hold. Now let's turn it. No, no, no, come on, let's turn. One other thing I just want to mention was that when I was in that dark room and I didn't

[01:14]

see anything really, didn't know what was going on. I also practiced, I thought, oh yeah, meditation. I've heard about meditation. I'm a meditation teacher, right? Let's just meditate. Or rather, also, be quiet and don't be in a rush about when you're going to see it. I can practice patience. I'm a professional patience guy. I'm a patience person, so I'll just be patient here. That's my job. That should be appropriate. Meditate, meditate until you can see the turning point. The turning point is not visible. The room's visible, the people are visible, but how we're turning is not visible. Although it's not visible, it produces compassion. Although it's not visible, it can be proved. And the way you prove it is with compassion, and not just compassion for one person, compassion for everybody.

[02:15]

That's the proof of what you can't see, which is the turning. But somehow you can see the turning. I was patient, I was looking for something I couldn't see, and I saw it. I saw that I couldn't, that there was no difference between what I was seeing with my eyes open and my eyes shut. And I saw that there was no difference really between it and me. I saw that, but it was invisible. You can't see, like this person, you can't see, the way I see this person, I can't see how I'm the same as you. I can't see that, but it's true. And when I see that, which I can't see, then I have no problem being devoted to you Who is me? But also not, of course. Because you who is me, if I hold on to that, that's no good. You're me, and then also you're not. And you are, and you're not, and you are. Yes? You mentioned not letting go of your enemies, but letting go of... Yeah, the idea that they're your enemies.

[03:25]

So, the whole notion of... Or why do we do etymology? What, the etymology? Well, who do you think is your etymologist? People will say, hey. Anyway, you're going to put it on your head. On your head. But I want you to know it. You say, well, you're not a very good enemy. Okay, you're right. I'm not going to prove it to you. Anyway, enemies, some people will say they're your enemy. Some people say, I hate you. I have beliefs. I have faith. And you don't share my faith. Therefore, from my perspective, you are an infidel. You do not believe in what you should believe in. You're insulting my God. And I hate you. And I want to destroy you. And that will be a good thing. I believe I've heard that. That's somebody who you might think, you might think that person's your enemy, and you might say, are you my enemy?

[04:27]

And say, yes. That's an enemy. Enemy is who you think is an enemy. And a friend is who you think is a friend. Right? But not. Yes, but turn. Like the mafia say, keep your family close, of course. Don't let go of your family. Right? Keep your enemies closer. Keep your family close but keep your enemies closer. That's the way to protect your family and that's the way to protect your enemies even though you don't want to protect your enemies. But also don't let go of your family. Keep your family close. But also get over your idea that your family is who you think your family is. Okay, these are my family. All Italian people are my family. All white people are my family.

[05:29]

All black people, this is my family. Okay, fine, fine. Now get over that. This is my religion. Fine. Now get over that. This is a good teaching. I see your point. hand it over and forget it. Never think of it again. Or at least be ready to never think of it again. And once you're ready to never think of it again and really forget it, say, hey, guess what I got for you? Remember that thing you forgot? Here it is again. Point is, leap and... One way you can talk about a belief is a belief. When you have a belief about something, you're actually thinking that your thoughts can capture reality. But thoughts cannot capture reality. So, if you think something's good, if you believe something's good, fine.

[06:36]

That's fine, but then please understand that what you're saying is that you think that your thought about what's good can actually get good. But it can't. Right? So, it doesn't mean don't have thoughts about what's good, it just means, remember, there's something to let go of. If you hold on to evil, evil grows. If you let go of evil, evil dies. If you hold on to good, good dies. If you let go of good, good grows. If you let go of your enemies, not push them away, but turn with them, the enemy, the evil one, is disarmed. If you hold on to your families, the evil one comes alive. Caring for your families.

[07:44]

Rock-a-bye baby in the treetop. Summertime and the living is easy. Fish are jumping and the cotton is high. Your daddy's rich and your mama's good-looking. So rest, little baby, even while you cry. Don't tell the baby not to cry. Rest, little baby, even while you cry. One of these mornings You're gonna rise up turning. You're gonna spread your wings and you'll take to the sky.

[08:47]

Until that morning, there ain't nothing can harm you. With daddy and mammy standing by. Take care of your family like that. Don't hold on to them. Take care of your enemies like that. It means get over your ideas of who's your family and your enemy. Look at, just look, go in the dark and look at who, look at the, you know, where's the enemy? Where's the friend? And just patiently watch until the turning happens. It will happen. But you've got to be patient and relaxed. You got that. Yes? Did you have your hand raised?

[09:52]

You're not sure how to start letting go? Well, one way is, is there anything you're holding on to? Huh? So just face, like going to, just face the holding on. Just face the holding on. Face [...] the holding on. That's basically what's happening, so face it. There may be trouble ahead, but while there's music and moonlight and love and romance, let's face the holding and dance. If you're holding, hey, be honest and patient. And until you can relax with it, be patient, relax, and start dancing with it. As you start dancing with it, after a while, where did the holding go again?

[10:52]

Where is the holding? You'll lose it. It never was there. You're not really holding. You're alive. I think. But, you know, let go of that, too. Get over that. But I don't think the turning point is where you are. And if you are holding on and not feeling like you're turning, and you're holding on to who you feel compassion for, and you're holding on to who you don't feel compassion for, I would say face that. That's the music. Face that music and face that music until you can dance. This lady says, first there's love, then there's what? Then there's turning. I would say they're simultaneous. There's not a first or second. Turning and love are the same thing. But you can't see the turning and you can't see the love. So if you see the love, say, hey love, teach me how to turn.

[11:58]

And love says, face the not turning. Face what's blocking you from loving somebody. Because that seems to be happening. You think, well, I don't really love that person that much. Well, okay, fine. You don't have to love the person more than you love the person. Just love them the amount you love them. Which is like so low that you call it hate. Well, face it. Okay. Anybody here hate? Raise your hands. I hate. It's me. I hate. Okay. Well, let's just face that hate. But also, anybody here love? Yes, I love. Well, face the love, too. Let go of the love, too. Let go of love and the hate. If you let go of love, more love comes. Well, actually, if you let go of the love, wisdom comes, and from that wisdom comes a bigger love. Let go of the bigger love, more wisdom comes, comes a bigger love. Turn away from the love by holding on to it. Was that Linda Ronstadt's song about love's a rose?

[13:02]

You're not supposed to grab that rose, right? Isn't that what the story, the thing's about? You're not supposed to grab that rose, is that it? How's it go? Love is a rose. Better not pick it, better not... It only grows when it's on the vine. It only grows when it's on the vine. Don't enjoy it. And then it'll die. It'll die too. And even without you messing with love, it's going to change, you know, it's going to turn too. But then more roses are going to come. And you can enjoy that if you're like interfacing roses. If you're not, if you can't, like if you spray them with plastic and stuff, you're up, you lost the rose. The impermanence of rose is part of what is wonderful about roses. The impermanence of love. Love is also constantly turning. So that's why the turning in the love, the wisdom, which sees that there's nothing to hold on to, including love. Love is enriched by seeing that you can't even hold on to love.

[14:06]

Not to mention hate. Love is real, but what's real doesn't mean it's solid. Love is free and peaceful, not solid. Now, how can we enter that? Okay, let's face the situation and get ready for the turning. Are you done, or are you just adjusting your glasses? You're good? So you're going to go on now and face this, what are you going to face? You're going to face the turning point. And where is the turning point going to be? You don't know? Okay. Do you remember what you said last time about it? What?

[15:10]

What? You want to let go, and then you also said you want to know how. You don't know how to start, did you say? You know how to start now? How? Facing what? Yeah, right. Do you want to learn how to let go? Start by facing where you're at. And if you happen to be letting go, face the letting go. It didn't say hold on to the letting go. Face the letting go, and letting go will happen again. If there's holding on, face the holding on, and letting go will be realized. It says in that artwork over there at the mattress factory, it says it takes about 15 minutes to see the piece. Is that what it says? It may take more than 15 minutes. Don't have a timely, no matter how long you're going to look until you see it.

[16:19]

Anything else you want to bring up? Yes. Yes. Will I describe the way I meditate? Well, one way is I sit upright and still. and become, you know, pay attention, you know, face my bodily and mental experience. I know I just sort of am aware of my experience. And that's it. That's the way I meant it, basically. So it's kind of just... It's kind of like, you might say, just simple presence. Simple presence. Very, very, very, very simple presence. Another way to put it is somebody said, what did they say? Oh, they said that they said something to somebody a while ago and they inter... they said something to someone and they interpreted what the person was doing rather than just witness what the person was doing.

[17:27]

And later the person said to this other person, later the person who was interpreted, the interpretee, later said to the interpreter, oh, I see you're on the war path. She said, I slipped from just witnessing to interpreting. So I just witnessed my experience. I have experience and I just witness, or rather they're just witnessing, not interpreting. And if there's interpreting, if I have the experience of interpreting... I just witness the interpreting. On some level, I just am aware, and I'm just aware, I'm just witnessing. On some level, no interpretation. In other words, that's the way to dance with somebody. You need them, and you don't interpret them, you just witness them. You witness them with your whole body. My body is your witness. Here's your witness, here it is. And I witness you moving backwards, so I'm going to go with you.

[18:32]

That's basically my meditation, is just simple presence and witnessing. Do you ever heard that I was sitting in one of these positions, and I was like, should you stay with that? If you have a hard time sitting in the lotus position because you have back problems, should you stay in it? I would suggest you have... Oh, I forgot one main big point. Is that when you have a teaching, and you meet somebody else who has a teaching... If you yourself have entered the turning place with your teachings, that means you have given up your teachings. You've gotten over the teachings that you appreciate, like the teachings on sitting meditation or lotus posture or whatever. All your yogic teachings, you've received them, and if you want to be compassionate and wise, you've forgotten them all.

[19:48]

So, you meet somebody else who's got a teaching, they might have actually the same teaching as you, actually, they might be in the same club, and have the same teaching as you, but they're holding it. And you love their teaching, and you have basically, yeah, and it happens to be a teaching you love and you take care of, but you are constantly getting over your teaching, but they're not. So what we need to do, as I said earlier, find some creative way, I didn't say it before, to have a conversation. Because people are holding on to their teachings, are often feeling like, I really shouldn't converse with anybody who doesn't agree with me. I shouldn't converse with somebody who says, oh, you sit in full lotus, do you? And, well, that's really like something you should give up. Or actually, even the person might also, might be practicing full lotus, might say, full lotus is really stupid. It's stupid to do that practice. And you feel like, anybody who doesn't agree with me, I shouldn't even talk with them, because they might erode my dogmatism, my dogma.

[20:57]

I'm not dogmatic, but I don't want to talk to anybody who doesn't agree with my dogma. So, when it comes to yourself, who thinks it's good to sit in some yogic posture, Okay? And you're kind of like, well, should I like, even if I'm in pain, should I like just say, shut up and just keep sitting? I would say there's an opportunity for a conversation for the painful person and the yogic hero. I'm going to sit in this posture because it's good. Well, yeah, it is good. Buddha sat in this posture. Yes, that's true. All the great masters sit in this posture. Well, maybe. Actually, I know one great master that couldn't because bandits broke his legs so he couldn't sit in full lotus. And when he died, he had his legs broken again so he could sit at the lotus. But anyway, don't get into that. But in the Buddhist tradition, there's emphasis on yoga. The Buddha practiced yoga. A lot of Buddhist meditators practice yoga. Sit in full lotus. It's really great. No question. It's wonderful.

[21:58]

Well, get over that. Get over it. Get over it! And then... That's one side of the conversation. And the other side says, well, I don't want to get over it. Well, please. No. Yes, come on. Okay, I will. Okay, when are you going to start again? So with yourself, you know, you've got two people. One's in a lot of pain because of various reasons. The other thinks it's good to sit in this posture, have a conversation. And that's something we should have with ourselves between, you know, the different positions we have about whatever. And both sides of the argument or the conversation will be able to give up their position through the conversation. So part of meditation is to... How do you put it? Part of meditation is to basically quiet down and face the music and settle into the turning point, which is right here.

[23:03]

The turning point is right here. If you just stop moving... When you discover the turning point, wisdom will manifest in your life and compassion will get ripped free of any limits. And then you will want to talk to people. Particularly you want to talk to people who don't want to talk to anybody. And you will patiently keep doing various kinds of things until they enter the conversation. Because you entered into the conversation, that's how you found the turning point. Now you enter a conversation with them. So I would say, have a conversation. First I was going to say, have a conversation with them. A meditation teacher would go and say, well, I'm trying to sit in full lotus, I've got these problems. A meditation teacher says, well, why don't you keep sitting?

[24:05]

Or a meditation teacher says, why don't you take a break? Or a meditation teacher says, why don't you sit in a chair? And you say, I don't want to sit in a chair. They say, well, blah, blah. So you have a conversation with somebody about it, but you can also have a conversation with yourself about it. The point of full lotus is not so that you look like a gorgeous yogi. The point of it is to help you enter the turnigal. It's a warm-up exercise for spinning and leaping. OK? And you just did actually enter in a conversation, sort of, with me. Yeah. Is there any other things you want to bring up? How are you feeling? You feeling good? You're good? You're relaxed? Cool. Are you ready to dance? And this is a, what do you call it, this is a Quaker house where they sit in silence and witness, right?

[25:10]

They witness. That's their practice. Very appropriate. But that's not the whole story. It's a way to get over being a Quaker. Quakers have to get over being Quakers in order to accomplish the work of peace. Because the work of peace has no particular form. It can be any form. The thing is we have to get over our ideas of what peace is and what will help it. Yes, yeah he lived right around Alan Watts actually I heard Alan Watts first at the University of Minnesota he came to visit and gave a talk which I thought was nice then when I moved to San Francisco when I moved to this place I live at a place called Green Gulch Farm Zen Center and Alan Watts lived right around the corner

[26:26]

right around the corner from where we lived. So he used to come over quite a bit. And when he died, we received his ashes and put his ashes up on the hill. So just recently, some young students came to Green Gulch and they said, asked me if I knew where Alan Watts' ashes site was. And I said, yeah, I did. And I went looking for it with him and I couldn't find it. Because it had become overgrown over the years because he died in 1979. So then I talked to somebody else and I tried again and we found it. And the marking stone for his ashes site is a stone that looks like hands joined like this. So we found that place. So Alan Watts is... Yeah, he's close. He's close to us folks at the San Francisco Zen Center. His ashes are with us. And he was, he served a great function in the transmission of the Buddha's teaching, which we should get over.

[27:38]

Which we should let go of. Out of reverence for the Buddha's teaching. And the more we let go of the Buddhist teaching, the more Buddhist teaching is alive in us, and the more it's alive in us, the more we should give it up. And the more we give it up, the more alive, and so on. Just because the more and more alive, the more we turn, and the more we find ways to help other people turn, who are, help Quakers turn, and help Buddhists turn, and help everybody get over themselves, basically. And if they're religious people, help them get over religion. If they're atheists, help them get over being atheists. If they don't know anything about religion, help them get over not knowing anything about religion by getting to take lots of classes on religion. Anything else you want to tell me before I go back to California? I spend a lot of time in my practice coming back to the breath.

[28:46]

She comes back to her breath in her practice? Whatever it is, you drop it. Drop whatever it is, come back to the breath. And I see a similarity between what I'm perceiving, what I sort of see as a similarity between that and the spinning, because when you're spinning... There's only the vortex or the axis or whatever. She says when you're spinning, there's only the vortex or the axis or whatever. And so you can't spin and go around anything because it's not even there. You're just right here. Well, she said you can't spin and go around anything because... Because you're not going anywhere? No, it's hard to hold on to something when you're spinning. It's hard to hold on to anything when you're spinning, right. It's hard to hold on to anything when you're spinning. It's easy to let go of things when you're spinning, but also when you're spinning, although it's hard to hold on to anything, what you realize when you're spinning and can't hold on to anything is you realize that you are connected to everything.

[29:57]

When you can hold on to something, you think you're only connected to some things. When you can't hold on to anything because you're spinning, you realize you're connected to everything. You realize that everyone's supporting you, and you're supporting everyone. And because of that insight, which comes in spinning, then you're perfectly easy for you, at that moment anyway, to be devoted to everybody that you're connected to, but not holding on to. Then if you start holding on to the people you realize you're connected to, you stop spinning, and then you You lose it. And you go back to zero again, hopefully. Back to the spinning. Yeah, I was just checking out. You checked out? Right. Shall I let Margo? Would it be fair to say we're in practice all the time? It would be very fair to say so. In fact, the actual practice is what we're actually doing all the time.

[30:59]

We're actually spinning together all the time. That's actually what's going on. We're actually all the time connected to everyone. We're actually all the time supporting everyone. Everyone's all the time supporting us. And because we're supporting everyone and everyone's supporting us, we can't stay still. We're changing with everyone. We're spinning all the time. That practice is actually going on all the time. So it's kind of like, get with the program. How to get with the program? Well, usually you have to... most people have to slow down a little bit and go, okay, now what is the program again? Oh yeah, okay. I'm supporting everybody and everybody's supporting me. Okay, now let go of that. I can't remember what the program is. Oh yeah, I remember. I'm supporting everyone and everyone's supporting me. And now I let go of that. I'm not just going to forget it, I'm going to like really go with letting go of that. And as soon as I let go of it, it comes back. Every time you let go of supporting people and people supporting you, it happens again. But that's what happens really anyway.

[32:01]

So practice is going on all the time. So the question is, how can we join it? Now if we put on a robe and say, what do you got that robe on? I have this robe on to remind people that they're connected to everybody. And I take it off to remind them that they're connected to everybody. And to remind me that I'm connected to people who don't wear this robe. Put it back on. No, maybe not. Yes. Mind. Everything is mind. Mind. Everything is mind. Mind. I would take that as an epistemological statement rather than an ontological statement.

[33:03]

That's, huh? When you say everything is mind, then you might take that as saying that what things are is mind. Another way to take it is that the only way that things exist for you is through mind. It's a statement about how you know the world and the fact that the world is only what you know. There's not another world. We're not talking about another kind of world. And we're not saying there's not another world. We're just saying... So if you understand to say everything is mine would mean there's not a world other than your mind, or there's not a world outside your mind, then you're getting into making statements about the world rather than talking about how the world comes to be with you. you start separating yourself from the world by saying it's only mine, by saying, for example, that I'm not separate from your mind, that I have no existence other than your mind.

[34:12]

Then you start talking about the way I am rather than the fact that the way I am is through connection with you and your mind. Yeah, it looks like that didn't do much for you. Yes, Mr. Neighbor? I'm trying to get a handle on the concept of being in relationship to versus letting go. Is there a tension there? Is there a relationship between being related to and letting go? Is there a relationship between being connected and letting go? Yeah, letting go is the way you realize relationship. Letting go is what? Letting go is the way that you realize relationship. Because of my relationship with you, I can't hold on to anything.

[35:15]

And when I participate with and realize letting go or turning, then I realize our relationship. Again, like in dancing, you know. When you're dancing with someone, you have a relationship. If you hold on to them in the sense of you embrace without holding on. You embrace in such a way that they can move and you can move. Then you realize your relationship. If you are dancing with somebody and you hold on to them so that neither one of you can move, you're still related, but because you're holding on, you don't realize the kind of relationship you can have when you let go while being embraced. So maybe that's enough, is that right? Quite a few people are saying yes, it's enough. So I think if they're saying yes, it's enough, then it's enough. Thank you very much.

[36:12]

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