Enter at any time, wherever you are. And in this place, there is this opportunity to receive a self. You get a self at the crisis point? Yeah, you get a self. Pardon? Pardon? Pardon? Actually, they don't capitalize Chinese characters. So you receive a self, or you receive a life, and you also simultaneously give a life. And you receive this self from all beings, enlightened and unenlightened beings give you the self, You don't receive it from yourself, you receive it from others.

[01:04]

And you give yourself, your life, to all others. There is a receiving of a self here and a giving of a self. So this is called the self-receiving. and giving samadhi. Excuse me, being aware of this, being in this place and being aware is called the self-receiving and employing or self-receiving and giving awareness. The self-receiving and giving is going on all the time. The awareness of it, some people are aware of it and some people aren't. And it's called self-receiving and self-giving, or self-receiving and giving. And then there's awareness of self-receiving and self-giving.

[02:10]

It's also called the self-fulfilling awareness. The Chinese characters for receiving The Chinese character for giving, when you put them together, they mean enjoyment or fulfillment. This is to receive and this is to employ or work. or function, self-receiving and self-giving or self-functioning or self-employing. Together the two mean enjoyment or fulfillment.

[03:22]

So there's different ways of translating the awareness of this. This is like a kind of spiritual fact. that our life is a process of giving and employing, giving and employing. And then there's the awareness of this. Anyway, I'm not sure, but anyway, this practice, the character for samadhi, the concentrated awareness of this spiritual function. It's called self-fulfilling awareness or self-fulfilling samadhi. This could also be called, this is called the standard or the criterion or the touchstone or the litmus test for what is called Zazen.

[04:27]

So zazen, the criterion of zazen is this kind of awareness. Zazen just means sitting meditation. And there's many people sitting meditation all over the world. As you see on the steps when you come in here, there's a guy sitting in meditation. You know, it says, this guy going like this. You see that guy? He's sitting in meditation. I don't know what kind of meditation he's doing. But he seems to be sitting in meditation. Did you see him? Yeah, he sees a picture of him as you come upstairs. This is the sitting meditation of the Buddhas, of the enlightened ones, has this criterion. The enlightened beings are aware of this spiritual function. They live in it. Okay, so what I'm talking about here is the zazen of the Buddhas and the ancestors.

[05:33]

And this is the proposed test to see if it's the zazen of the Buddhas and the ancestors, is if there is this awareness of the world giving you life, and you giving the world life. Okay? If you're not aware of that, in some sense, you're not doing the zazen of Buddha's ancestors. Sorry. It's a high criterion, I know, but that's it. But don't worry, this is the top-of-the-line meditation in the universe. And it is actually the meditation of the universe. It's the way the universe meditates. It's the way the universe is aware of making all things. And it's the way the universe is aware of being made by all things. So of course the universe makes all things, right? And of course the universe is made by all things.

[06:38]

Does that make sense? There's not one thing in the universe that doesn't make the universe the way it is. And there's not one thing in the universe that the universe doesn't support, otherwise it wouldn't be able to be here. That's in some sense a physical fact and a logical fact. The way our minds, the way logic works upholds that. And being aware of that is the kind of awareness that is in the meditation practice of the awakened ones. And then the initiation into this kind of awareness, which is extremely dynamic because the universe makes each thing in the universe in a given moment, and then everything changes. The universe makes a whole new universe and is made by a whole new universe. So this is a very dynamic situation. And the way of entering is through being very rested, being very calm.

[07:49]

When you're very calm and relaxed, you dare to open to this very creative, dynamic process. And then you can enter this, and then when you enter, you can sit upright and perhaps continue to be relaxed and enjoy the creativity of the universe. which of course we're totally participating in all the time, with more or less awareness. So this is a logistic quote. This awareness is the criterion of Zazen. That's what Doolin says. This awareness is the touchstone. of the Buddhas and ancestors. Yes. When you talk about the universe, are you talking about more than just the physical universe? I can basically understand how everything matters, not created or destroyed.

[08:55]

It's continually changing. I just feel somewhere that you're talking about more than just... More than just atoms? Yeah. We're talking about more than just atoms because, for example, the laws of physics are not physical things. Gravitation is a physical phenomena, but the law of gravitation is not a physical phenomena. A consciousness doesn't exist out of relationship with the physical universe, but consciousness isn't a physical thing. You asked about physical things, right? Even a dance is not a physical thing. Two people, two human beings for example, those are physical things, moving

[10:00]

You know, together, you could say that's a physical thing. But the dance is not a physical thing. Art is not a physical thing. So this way that all things are supporting each other is not a physical thing. But the way all physical things support each other is a spiritual thing. It's not even a psychological thing. Although you can have a psychological take on it, you can think about it, you can have a cognition of it, but the actuality of how things are working is not encapsulated by the cognition, although cognition can know it, and when the cognition knows it, this is the kind of cognition that we have in meditation. But the cognition is not a physical thing. I think even people who say that mind is just a function of the brain, I don't think they say mind is the brain.

[11:09]

I don't think anybody goes that far. But some people would say mind is what the brain does. Some people go that far. What the brain does is not a physical thing. But the thing we're talking about here, the awareness, is about how physical things relate to each other. It's about how human bodies relate to each other, and how human bodies relate to the universe, and how the universe relates to human bodies. That interaction of all things, physical, psychological, is a spiritual relationship. You can't see it, but somehow some people know it. And the people who know it best, who seem to be most familiar with it, most familiar with it, most fluent with it, they seem to be empowered with tremendous ability of compassion and tremendous ability to help people.

[12:23]

Because they're tuned in to how basically everybody's helping everybody. So they're not only inspired by the process, but they know how it works. So we are part of it and it's possible for us to have access to knowledge of it. And that access frees us from fear and selfishness and makes us care for all those who care for us. And also it makes us aware that we're already caring for them. We get with the program of them helping us, and we get with the program of us helping them. We see we're already helping everybody. So no problem in continuing. All this, however, is not exactly an observable thing in the sense of time and space. Time and space are physical in a way. Do you mind if I read something Jesus said?

[13:26]

Any anti-Jesus freaks? Can I read something Jesus supposedly said? Ready for this? This is Luke 17. I was looking for the... The quote at the YMCA, I haven't been able to find it yet, but I'll go back there on Wednesday and find out about what's going on with that quote. So I'm looking through chapter 17 of Luke, and there's a section called The Coming of the Kingdom of God. So the Pharisees asked Jesus when the kingdom of God was to come. He gave to them this answer. The coming of the kingdom of God does not admit to observation. And there will be no one to say, look here, look there. For you must know the kingdom of God is among you. The kingdom of God is among you is like self-fulfilling samadhi.

[14:33]

It's among us. It's not us. I can see Mark. I can see Gene. I can see the microphone. But the kingdom of God is among us. It's not us, but it's among us. It's not someplace else from us. And among us, of course, totally includes us, too. So it includes us, and we include it, and it's the way we really are together. That's the kingdom of God. So in that regard, I think Jesus is teaching very similar teaching to the people teaching the self-receiving and employing. And he's saying you must know this. In other words, you must have an awareness of this. You must have a knowledge of this. You need to know this. You need to know the kingdom of God, and you don't have to go anyplace else to know it. Because it's among you. It's among us right now. But, although you don't have to go anyplace, you may have to relax quite a bit.

[15:35]

You may have to take a major sedative. Like if they do open heart surgery, or if they give you a new heart. Most people need a sedative to let them do it. Some people say, I'm just waiting. I need a new heart. But I hope they don't give it to me with no sedative. I really want it, but it would hurt so much to have me ripped open and take out the old one and put a new one in without a little bit of, you know, aspirin at least. So we need to be able to relax with pain in order to let this awareness into our body and mind, because it's such a shock. So that's why we practice meditation to get ready for this huge opening to this spiritual reality, which we want.

[16:45]

But we have to be relaxed. And not only that, but most people are running around so fast they can't even slow down enough to put a new heart in. They're just zipping around so much. Wait a minute, we've got a new heart for you. So you have to slow down so that the new heart can find you, or so that your Buddha heart can find you and enter you. And also that as it starts to enter, you don't resist. So part of meditation is the calming meditation, the concentrating part. And the other part is entering into reality part, or opening and letting reality enter you part. And then from that place, you join the program of getting everybody else ready to enter by giving them instructions in concentration and so on. and demonstrating compassion which attracts them and encourages them and helps them.

[17:52]

But it isn't just that you're being nice to them just to make them temporarily more at ease, you're actually getting them ready to enter into what they must know. They must know the way we're working together so that they can join the program of initiating all beings into this knowledge. Does that make sense? Yes? I'm knowing that we are seeing The first heart opening activity, well, one of the first, basically the first heart opening activity, after you decide you want to open your heart, after you want to have an open heart activity practice,

[19:13]

The first practice is basically called giving, and giving is part of Soto Zen. Giving, it's a practice. It's the first bodhisattva practice. And it's the first practice of Soto Zen also. It's basically the first practice of all the Buddhist schools, not just the Mahayana. But specifically in Mahayana, for the bodhisattvas, the first practice is often said to be giving. But if you go to Theravadan countries, the first thing they teach little children is giving. Buddhist monks come begging, and they give the children the food, and the children bring the food out to give to the monks. So the children, before they even know anything about other aspects of Buddhism, the first thing they know is about, oh, here comes the monks, let's go give them something. This is the Buddha thing. The Buddha thing is the monks are coming, we give them something.

[20:17]

So giving is basically the first heart-opening practice in the tradition. It's, you know, the Buddha first gives people something, the Buddha gives herself. And then people say, thanks, and then they give back. So when the Buddha gives to the people, the people's hearts start to open. And when the people give back to the Buddha, their hearts open more. And then Buddha says, thanks, and then their hearts open more. And then they give more, and their hearts open more. Giving just opens the heart more and more and more. So giving is the basic heart opening practice in the tradition, both Mahayana. And you can give gifts like food, clothing, housing, water, meditation seats, Buddha statues, incense, money. You can give all that stuff, okay?

[21:19]

You can also give fearlessness and you can also give Dharma. But of course children don't usually think about giving Dharma, except it may be a joke. And they do sometimes think of that. Like at Zen Center, the kids who grow up in the community often do Dharma skits. to show that they've noticed their parents practicing Buddhism, and then they sort of give it back as skits, because they don't feel like giving a lecture on Dharma. So they do a little play about Dharma. But as we get older, we start giving meditation instruction and things like that. Someone said to me a while ago, how can you give all those talks? And I said, well... Or how did you get in the position of giving all those talks? I said, well, you know, when I had been in Zen Center for two years, I wound up at Tassajara, and I was the head doan, and I gave Zazen instruction every day to guests, seven days a week.

[22:32]

I was the one who gave Zazen instruction. So I gave lots of Zazen instruction. And then I went to the city and I was the Eno and I gave, not as much, I didn't do it every day, but I did it like Wednesday and Saturday I gave Zazen instruction. So from before I was ordained and then after I was ordained, for about two years I gave a lot of Zazen instruction in two groups of people. So then... And then I became head monk at Tassajara, and then I gave some talks too. They weren't just Zazen instruction, but by the time I gave those talks, I already had lots of experience. So there's ways that you can start teaching that are, you know, you can get into teaching. You don't think, well, I'm a big teacher. You're just explaining to them how to sit, how to enter the zendo, things like that. But you actually are helping people.

[23:35]

You're giving people instruction about how to meditate. And so, little by little, and you don't think, oh, I'm giving them this big gift, but in fact you are. And your heart's opening through that process. So that's the basic one. Now, then you move on to practicing precepts. But precepts are partly heart-opening and also partly kind of a struggle because you're having trouble with figuring out what they mean and stuff. But they're not heart-closing, but they're not directly heart-opening the way giving is. But heart-opening through giving is kind of the beginning. And then you practice patience after that, and patience isn't exactly heart-opening, but it's sort of as heart-opening because you're kind of opening yourself to your pain. You're not fighting your pain. You're trying to make yourself big enough to experience your discomfort.

[24:41]

The root of the word for patience, the Sanskrit word for patience is kshanti, and its root means capacity. So patience is to develop the capacity to experience discomfort without freaking out and getting angry or violent. So it's a kind of, in a way, it's a heart-mind opening practice too. And then you practice diligence and heroic effort. And that also kind of opens your heart. And then you practice concentration, which helps you relax. And when you relax, your heart opens in another way. and then you enter wisdom. And when you understand, of course, your mind opens and your heart opens, but through understanding rather than through an action. So it's all kind of open your heart and open your mind. But the first one is giving, and it's totally part of Zen. Yes.

[25:49]

The kingdom of God is within you is another possible translation of that from the Greek. Yeah. I heard it as an epistemological question. everything is mine, and you said that is a epistemological response, not an ontological response. Later on, we talked about how the mind surfaces when everything surfaces. And I've heard that more as an ontological response. I guess what I'm wondering is, as I listen to you talk more about crisis and treatment, does epistemology, not oncology,

[27:06]

Well, the conclusion of Buddhist ontology is in a sense, if you're going to say it's ontological, then what we're saying is that nothing can be grasped. But ontology usually is understood as the way things actually exist. And there's some sense in ontology that you're actually going to find out the way they exist. But that attitude already tends to give more substance to things than we're going to be able to give to them when we look at how they come to be. So how they come to be is the way that they can't be found. And then if you say that's how they...

[28:27]

If you say that's the way they are, can you say that without then making them more than something that comes to be? So in that sense, I would say that Buddhism kind of doesn't have ontology. But it does have epistemology in the sense that it says we tend, we humans, whether we're religious or not, we tend to want an ontology so we can get a hold of things. In other words, people do have an ontology, and their ontology is things are substantial. But they want that not because things are that way, but because the kind of epistemology, the way we usually want to know things, is we want to know things as something we can grasp. So if we start getting into ontology, we start to... We may lose track of the fact that most people are interested in ontology because epistemologically they have the kind of consciousness which wants to grasp things.

[29:40]

They're looking for something to cling to. And that's their motivation in finding out how things exist. If we say, well, we're not saying things don't exist or that they do exist. We just say they appear to exist because they come to be. They come to be, but they don't come to be in a way that you can grasp them. So we don't want people to have a negative ontology, to say that actually the way things are is they don't exist. Although sometimes Buddhists go that far. We don't want to be nihilistic. So we have to do a little ontology, I guess, enough to point out why we don't want to be ontological. Well, the thing is the heart sutra could be understood as ontological. Huh? But denies itself, yeah.

[30:42]

But if you think it's ontological, then you might think that it's actually saying that in emptiness there are no things. But it's more like When you know emptiness, you don't know things. It's not really saying that things don't exist or do exist at that point. It's saying in the epistemological situation when the source of your knowledge is emptiness, when you're realizing that things don't have any grasp of equality, then in that context there's no things. But we don't want to take that ontologically. I recommend seeing it epistemologically. In other words, when you're free of grasping things, then there aren't any things. And when you want to grasp things, then there are things. But it's not really like there really are things or aren't things. And yet there is the appearance of things. And that's not really ontological, though, because that doesn't really say how they are.

[31:49]

It says how they come to be. It says more like here, too. It doesn't say what the self is. It just says the self's given and the self's received. It doesn't say what the self is. In a way, the self is the whole universe, and yet it's the whole universe appearing as a self. So what's the ontological status of that? Well, the ontological status of it, I'd rather not say, because then Rick might say that self is some substantial thing. It's more like we want to get a hold of it. But if we get a hold of it, then we lose track of the process. Would it be precise to say, because I'm sensing two difficult things in my room. One is, when we go looking for weapons of mass destruction, so that we don't really have any kind of psychological standing. We seem to buy into things quickly. On the other extreme, I work with students for whom there are constantly questions about any kind of systemology, so that we run into kind of chaos and there's no standing at all.

[33:01]

So would it be precise to say that meditation or Buddhism offers a phenomenal opportunity? Yes. Yeah. Yes. At what point do you stick in Fresno or Turek knowing the immediate sense of seeing through to the bottom? We don't exactly see through to the bottom. We just see that there's no bottom. I mean, not in general, I mean in a particular situation. Yeah, in a particular situation to see that there's no bottom. So that's prajna, so what's your question? But you've seen a lot. You've seen a lot? Yeah. Are you seeing something very... You're seeing in a different sense from the way we think we usually see.

[34:07]

Yes, that's right. You're seeing the ungraspability of some particularity. And then you get a relief from your usual way of seeing. Which means you get a relief from your usual way of suffering. Did both feet land? Hmm? Is that cycle complete there? Or did you have something more there? Looks like there's something more you want to bring up. Yeah, yeah. Well, I think there's a lot of talk about dirty. Yeah? Mm-hmm. often the instances in the poems, et cetera, of two or more people meeting and seeing directly what's going on in a way that we don't think we usually do.

[35:26]

Yes. This is related, isn't it, to this question? We're just coming at it from a different angle, the question of reality and so on. Like, to the extent of that meaning, it's verifiable during seeing. And how do we verify it? Well, obviously, one way is people meet who have never met before, and one of them at least sees, in a sense, to the bottom of what's going on with the other one. And later on, the other one says, yeah, that was me.

[36:29]

That definitely was me. That could be a verification. Or seeing a person's actions subsequently. Yes. I did understand where that person was coming from because they're acting in this way. Uh-huh. Okay. I'm looking for something that JP's students I'm trying to have a sense of, which is, no, not something to move on to. It's something that can say, yeah, I really am here. I really am experiencing something correctly. It's not all total chaos. What attracted me was not to experience things correctly and not

[37:36]

not chaos. What attracted me was compassion, was the ability to be compassionate no matter what happens. That's the proof. That's the verification. And it could take the form of, you know me well. That could be it. That could be it. He could take many forms. You know me at this moment. Just as I am at this moment. You take my hand. How does it go? You take my hand and say, How does it go?

[38:40]

You take my hand and say... How does it go? I know, but what's the beginning? Give your hand to me and then you say hello. And anyone can see you think you know me well. I missed something. You give your hand to me and then you say hello. Oh, I know. You give your hand to me and then you say hello. And I can hardly speak. My heart is beating so. And anyone can tell.

[39:44]

You think you know me well. But you don't know me. That's entertaining. You didn't pass the test. I can't verify you. Yes, Catherine? Yes. Are the forms heart-opening? Well, again, the first heart-opening is giving. If you give the forms and then you walk away... Yeah.

[40:50]

So if you give the forms, then the forms, it isn't the forms are exactly heart-opening, but if you give them, then in the giving of the forms, that's an opportunity to open people's hearts. And if you're receiving the forms, that could be heart-opening. And sometimes I talk to people who are in charge of giving forms, you know, like in Zendo, but also there's other forms at Zen Center, like forms in the kitchen. And like at Tassajara, we have a guest program. There's forms of taking care of people really well that are guests at Tassajara. So sometimes I've had the occasion where the person who's in charge of taking care of the guests comes to me, and he really wants to take good care of the guests. And his staff doesn't want to take care of the guests the way he wants to take care of the guests. From his point of view, they don't seem to care as much as he does. but they don't want to be as thorough in cleaning the rooms or serving the meals or whatever.

[42:01]

And so I say to him, well, you care for the guests and you can give your staff the gift of telling them how you would like to care for the guests. And if you give some forms of how to arrange the rooms or serve the meals, You can make that a gift. And in a zendo, too, the ino, or the person in charge of the zendo, they can give gifts to the people. They say, here's the way to... I give you the gift of this is the way to ring a bell. But if you give them these gifts in order to get them to do the things you're showing them, it's not a gift. You're trying to control them. And then they don't, then they don't feel, then it doesn't seem to be a heart opening. Then they actually can feel coerced. But like, you know, I wanted Suzuki Roshi to teach me some stuff, so when he, even when he corrected me, usually I felt like, oh my God, this is, what a gift.

[43:10]

Not always, but, but oftentimes he, like, I remember one time he, I was carrying this stick, we used to have carry stick mords, and I was carrying this stick in the zendo, and afterwards he He showed me a way of walking while carrying the stick. And it was kind of like, usually we walk like this when we carry the stick kind of thing. And I really didn't think that the way he was showing me was better than the way I did it. I just thought here was a chance for him to give to me. And that was what really touched me, is that he was giving to me. I didn't feel like he was trying to control me. I felt like he was spending his life giving me something. He could have done something else, but he was choosing to spend his time giving this young person some instruction. So I think that the forms could be gifts, and then they're heart-opening.

[44:11]

Potentially. Now, the person might not be able to see it's a gift, but again, if the person who's giving is giving this instruction to get the person to do it, that's not a gift. And that's hard for people to learn the difference between, like, if I give Mark this thing to give it to him to get him to take it, And some say, why would you give it to him if you didn't want him to take it? I just wanted to give it to him, I didn't want him to take it. But I'd want him to give it to me. And as an example, and I didn't really give that example so that I would control you into understanding what I was talking about. Yes, Amy? If you hope that the rooms will be cleaned better?

[45:21]

If you confess that. If you confess that, yeah. Because it's still kind of giving. Because I want you to like me. Because I want you to come back. Yeah, right. So if you tell your staff, I'm now going to give you some instructions I'm going to give you some instruction on cleaning the rooms, but I'm also going to give you a gift of my confession that I'm really trying to manipulate you. And that's my problem. I really would like to just tell you how to clean the rooms as a gift without any attachment to whether you're actually going to clean the rooms like that or not. But I had this problem. What do you call it? I'm a control-a-holic, you know. And so every time I try to give a gift, it turns into a manipulation. Please forgive me. And it says in there, too, I thought this is really a nice thing. It's called... Yeah, it's called Brotherly Correction.

[46:33]

And it says... If your brother does something wrong, reprove him. And if he is sorry, forgive him. And if he wrongs you seven times a day and seven times comes to you and says, I'm sorry, you must forgive him seven times. So if the boss tells the staff, you know, I'm trying to control you guys and I'm sorry. They should forgive him. And they probably will. Some of them might. You say, Jesus says you should forgive me. And they might. I don't know. I don't know. But I think confessing that you don't know how to give is getting close to giving.

[47:34]

And you say, I hope someday to give you some instruction without trying to manipulate you. But right now this is the best I can do. Please make the bed like this and forgive me that I'm telling you this to try to get you to do it rather than just giving you a gift of showing you a really good way to do things. And sometimes you can show people a really good way to do things and they say, you know, that really was a good way, but since you're trying to manipulate me, I can't do it. And you're doing me a disservice because you showed me a good way and I'd like to do it that way, but I can't because I'd be submitting to your dictatorship. So if you show something good to somebody to try to get them to do it, you're really disserving them. It's better to show them the good thing and say, you know, I don't know, here it is. Laughter Watch that edge there, that controlling edge.

[48:36]

Yeah. Yeah. They're very smart. And they don't like that. Now, some of them, although they don't like it, they still go along with it out of trying to protect the teacher from failure. Because they think, oh, this guy's going to be so upset. If we don't like, let them control us, so let's do it. But it's a key point. Yes. Yes. Yes. It occurs to me that if someone is, you know, like trying to manipulate like that, giving an instruction, that they aren't open to receiving them also from the student, you know, which would be, they close themselves off from receiving it. The same way that they can't give, they close themselves off from receiving. Maybe the student has a better idea of how to make friends. So by not being able to... Unlikely.

[49:44]

So, you know, the inability to give... Inability to give does sort of go with inability to receive. And also inability to see that you're a gift yourself. You're a walking, talking gift. So yeah, you miss one part of the picture, you tend to miss the other parts. You don't enjoy one part of the process and tend to not enjoy the other parts. So yeah, a lot of leaders, if they would go to their followers and say, what do you guys think is a good way to clean your rooms? That would be really good. But they figure, I don't have time to do that. I don't have time to find out what they think is the best way to clean the rooms and also tell them the way I think is doing the best way to clean the rooms. I just, the world is just too upsetting and, you know, too much of a wreck to be doing, to have that luxury. So yeah, so part of giving is like to feel that you have the luxury to give rather than maybe next lifetime I can give.

[50:53]

This lifetime, I got to control. And if I can get through this one, maybe in my next light time I'll practice a little giving and ask some other people what they think about things. Which reminds me, what do you think about things? Do you have any feedback for me? Yes? Just from where I'm sitting, your head is right in the middle of the circle. And the arrow is going straight out of your head. And the other arrow, after sneezing, is going directly into your ear. It's really... We'll take turns sitting in that seat. Would anybody like to sit in their seats? Would you give them your seats? Sorry, anyone who'd like to see that. Maybe. Any other feedback?

[51:57]

Yes? I really appreciate your precise inspiration. Thank you. Thank you. Do you have any other positive feedback? Any negative feedback?

[52:59]

Yes? Not you. What are you doing way back there, by the way? Do you have leprosy? Come closer, I'll heal you. I've been learning a lot in this book about it. Do your best. Yeah. Not everybody. But a lot of people get interested in you. Sometimes it takes a few years. But as far as language goes, there's something that was sticking with me that I wanted to make a suggestion. Okay. Yeah, when you said lesbians don't like men, that might be the men that are looking for men in sexual partners.

[54:03]

Say it again. Instead of saying lesbians don't like men, Yeah, but I wasn't saying that lesbians don't like men. I was saying that men think lesbians don't like men. And they're attracted to them because they think they don't like men. A lot of lesbians really like men. It's just they happen to be in love with a woman. So then they're a lesbian. Yeah, yeah. I'm not saying lesbians don't like men. I have a number of students who are lesbians, and they love me. They're not my sexual partner, but they love me. And they love a lot of other men. They just happen to also love women, and in particular, their primary sexual relationship is with a woman, so they're called a lesbian. But I know that lesbians... Many of them do love men.

[55:05]

And many heterosexual women do love women. It's just that they don't have sex with them, so that they don't get called lesbians, right? Do you have to have sex with women to be a lesbian? I used to be a lesbian. That was the issue in the 70s. Because my wife has lots of lesbian friends and she loves them. And I don't know how, you know, and they love her, but they don't have sex. Yeah. No, I appreciate that. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just saying that, just like, what is it? when someone is celibate, then people think the person isn't interested in sex. So they think that. So they think, well, I wonder if I could interest them. But when they're celibate, it doesn't mean they're not interested in sex. It just means they're trying to get people to, you know, come on to them.

[56:10]

Spiritually. It's a spiritual come on, right? Yeah. So anyway, I do not think that lesbians don't love men. Some of them really do. And some of them hate men. But also a lot of heterosexual women hate men. And a lot of men hate men. No, I don't think that. But I'm saying, yeah, thank you. Thank you. Any other criticisms of my speech? Wait your turn, Ms. No, no, it's your turn. I mean, Ms. I just was curious about something that you said, of which they have no idea because they're running the event. You're telling that story about your wife seeing some van on a bus giving instructions to the bus driver.

[57:22]

And what struck me in that story, I love the story, and then it just made me wonder, is the detail of them having been African-American necessary to the story? Well, it maybe wasn't the way I told it, but the way she told it, it was necessary because of the language that they were using. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Well, he kind of, yeah, I didn't really make it clear that the way he was talking to her was the way black people often talk to black people. That was part of the beauty of it, when he was saying, lovely, lovely, you got it, girl. He was an older man, younger woman. He was very sweet, but part of what was above was that they were speaking to each other the way they wouldn't speak to a white person. And so to mention that they're African American was not necessary the way I told the story. And actually...

[58:23]

I think she didn't mention that they're African American until she started to explain the language that they were using with each other. And also, another thing she said was that She was sitting right next to me in the front seat. And he did something. He reached over and grabbed my wife's arm to demonstrate something to the driver. But she said it was completely all right that he grabbed her arm to show her something. He just reached over and took ahold of my wife's arm and did something with it to show the driver, to make some point in the teaching. Just these little miracles where you can do that kind of thing, where a stranger can just grab your arm on the bus and you feel completely comfortable. It can happen. And that was part of the bodhisattvas all over the place.

[59:32]

They're all over the place. And so sometimes you can see them and sometimes you can't. Sometimes I've told, I often tell stories about George Washington Carver, and I almost never mention that he's African-American. And some African-Americans come up to me afterwards and they say, I really appreciate that you don't say that he is African-American when you tell those stories. And I think that he's in being upright, I think. And I didn't say he's African-American in being upright. Right. I didn't say the African-American scientist George Washington Carver. So I think it is better generally not to mention it and then let people find out. Oh. Yes.

[60:35]

Whenever I go on a machine, I'm always struck that the rest periods are after meals. And I always long for, like, maybe even 20 minutes to do some physical research. So, and I don't last, though, because one day, for me, Thank you for that comment. Would people like to have a break between before dinner tonight and maybe have a shorter break after dinner tonight? We could have dinner a little later, maybe. Have dinner a little later and then have a shorter break after dinner?

[61:45]

How many people would like that? Have a break before dinner and take that off after dinner? Some would and some don't care. Some would like it, some don't care. Anybody not like it? One. Oh, I see. Or another possibility is we could have evening service earlier and just have a break and have dinner at the same time. Would you like to do that? We could have, instead of having two periods of zazen or whatever, We could have one period of zazen in service now, and then have a break before dinner, and have dinner at the regular time.

[62:49]

Or? Pardon? Yeah, that's another possibility. Or, have even a service, and then have a break. Huh? What? No, I didn't. Maybe I did. Implicitly. I implied that. I just have a suggestion. I mean, I don't think anyone's got a gun to their head that people said to go to Zazen. People would rather do some musical exercise instead. That's right. People want to go to Zazen. If you go to Zazen, if you want to exercise, if you want to finish something, you could all be up for a service. Yeah. Okay, well, stay tuned.

[63:53]

Oh, wait, can I throw in another one? Yeah, how many can we get here? So, Gene showed me some stretching today. Yes. And I've gone through some other traditions where stretching is sort of... Yes. Okay. All right. Okay. And another possibility is we can go to daycare. Okay. Could we please join daycare? Yeah, we got our badges. We're safe. Get those Buddhists away from those children.

[64:57]

Okay, is there anything else you'd like to bring up at this time? Any other feedback for me besides the ones you've already offered so kindly? Yes? I also noticed, I saw something in the process that I wanted to share with you, Everybody says everything about anything, as long as it's related. I don't know. I guess I've learned by . So I was confused how to partake in that skillfully.

[66:05]

And as a result of not being skillful, Did you feel that you weren't skillful in response to what happened? Is that what you're saying? Yes. And how would you have approached sharing it? Oh. Oh, okay. So can you think of a very respectful way to do it now? I was grateful that Kathleen got my consent today. Right. I also felt the tension of the exchange. Yes. And felt that it was unresolved in my mind. And I would like to stay in my mind longer.

[67:10]

I understand that. So how would you have respectfully approached that possibility? Yes. Yeah, I think you could have said that. You could have said how you felt. I think that would be fine. And I think that's respectful. of us to tell us it's respectful of us to tell us how you feel that's a gift that you can give us and it would be also respectful i feel if you gave us that gift without expecting to control or or you know uh catherine and james's real interaction but you just make your contribution i think that would have been respectful and that could have been respectful and generous But for you to comment on what they were doing, I think in that case you probably should check to see if everybody wants you to get into that. I myself did not choose to comment on it. I thought things were pretty clear.

[68:19]

Huh? I thought it was fairly clear what was going on. If they wanted to do more, they could have done more. But I think you could have very easily just said how you felt. And a lot of other people could have said so too. I think as long as you're telling us, giving us the gift of how Linda feels, I think it's always welcome. When did you notice when she reacted? Okay. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, I think I would welcome you anytime you feel pain that you want to give us the gift of letting us know you're feeling pain about something. Like at that moment that you heard me say African-American, you felt like a little pang there, a little catch, like was that necessary?

[69:21]

Would have been okay to say that. I think I felt it too, like was that necessary to mention that at that moment? I think if you felt pain, you could have done it right then. And if I had said it the way you heard it, I would have said, oh, sorry, I didn't mean it that way. Or I might have said, I didn't say it that way. I said, they think lesbians don't like men, and that makes them interested. That's what I thought I said, and that's what I mean. But if I said it the other way, then you could have caught me at that and said, no, I didn't mean it that way. So oftentimes, if you're fast enough, we can heal the wound right on the spot. So I welcome you to be very quick. But it's not always so easy. Yes, Neil? Yeah.

[70:26]

It's dangerous. Now, what's the gift that you're talking about again? Yeah, it's dangerous. And it's also dangerous to express your views or your comments on other people. But I'm not asking you to express your comments on other people. I'm not inviting that. If you want to express your comments to somebody, then I would suggest that you offer the gift of a question. And you offer the question as a gift. Like, would you like some feedback from me? And then they say yes. And then go further and say, would you like me to give you some comments on your behavior? And most people will say, I'm not sure about that. And a lot of people will say, huh? Yeah. Can you give me a hint? Can you give me a sample? But I think to give a gift is dangerous.

[71:38]

Everything we do is dangerous. And when you realize it's dangerous and you enter the place where the danger is, you enter the place of opportunity. But I'm not saying it's not dangerous. But I am saying I do not invite you to comment on each other. I do not invite you to do that. If you want to comment on each other, then I think you should ask permission to do so and see if it's given. And it might not be, but anytime you want to ask, if you can make comments on what people are saying, I welcome you to ask. But ask as a gift, not ask as a way to get me to give it to you. But expressing your own feelings is also dangerous, but I welcome that. And I welcome it rapidly. I mean, rapidly, close to when you feel it, is really good. Generally speaking, I almost never have found it unhelpful for somebody to say, ouch, or ooh, or...

[72:43]

You know, almost always helpful. Lift my foot off their foot or, you know, take my elbow out of their eye. It's really helpful. Yes? If I say African-American, you say, ouch. Yes? First of all, you said, ouch. That's enough. And then I probably would say, tell me more. Or I know what you mean. No, no, no. I think ouch is enough. If you feel pain, you don't have to know who's stepping on your foot to say ouch. You can say ouch. But the problem is that sometimes because you do know who's stepping on your foot, you don't say ouch. Or you think, you know, this situation... Is that staying? I think he doesn't breathe.

[73:49]

Yes. It sounds so good to be able to do that quickly, you know, when there's like a pain and then immediately, but mine kind of frequently is, clutching up to protect myself from the pain, and then it's like maybe a day later and I think, oh yeah, you know, that really hurt. I mean, there's such a lag time between my being able to process and communicate and talk to somebody about, and it creates complications all over the place. I wish I could do it as quickly as you were describing. Well, you're invited to anyway. You don't have to wait. Well, a lot of times people also don't even know. until later. But sometimes if you do know, I'm inviting you to just say, ouch, right away. You don't have to raise your hand even and say ouch, you can just say ouch. It's a special, at least for experimental purposes, it's a special invitation for this retreat to see if you can say ouch really fast after you feel it.

[75:04]

You need to practice. Come on, guys. If someone needs to say something, I'll answer it quickly. Every time. I see Jean and Don. I don't know who's first. I'm sorry. I apparently didn't hear you. Oh, no, that's okay. I was going to say, I heard that comment too, and I had two reactions, and chose to go with the gratitude, and told them that I'd never heard the word lesbian mentioned in a comic book ever. And that's sort of the tradition, and so what gratitude can say, you know, it's a choice. So I think I just wanted to put that out there that I think it's something that's important because I believe it's not common.

[76:10]

I just wanted to point it out. In the end, it is a common opportunity. Well, I don't think that it's a common opportunity. I mean, so, you know, there's that other thought that I just wanted to point out. Yes, Don. Yeah, I was going to talk about gifts. Giving, I think you mentioned this also. I know that it presumes a receiving. Giving is a form of receiving. And when we talk about reaction, I think when you were saying about how you're skillful about it, I think the reticence here is that you are not sure of your receding environment.

[77:33]

You know, you can bug people with your gifts. Yes. I had this with my father. My father, when he had insinuations of mortality, decided that his offspring should go around the house and put our name on the paper underneath, you know, he'd stick it underneath all the things you bought him. And he would go over there and he would decide how he would set up as a step to us, if they were to have all this planned out. And I asked them, I said, so listen there, I said, if you want to give me something, you can give me something, then you can thank me for receiving it. Otherwise, I don't want this. They said, you get nothing. And I wanted nothing from him. So I understand that. And I think when you look at exchanging bits, like a slap of effects, you know, I need to give you a gift.

[78:43]

You should have sent that. Boy, that's... Being careful can be integrated into the process, I hope. Yes? I just have a question about the process and format in this group, and also with the three talks. Is it okay to... I mean, I understand what you're saying about the comments and other people's comments, but... Is it a free form of discussion as we're discussing things? Is it a courtesy agreement? Is it a formal discussion process? And is it different than a process event?

[79:45]

My experience is that most of the people who come to retreats and classes and so on seem to want me to sort of set the table before the food fights. Otherwise, people can't tell what's going on. So if I just walk in the room and say, OK, what do you want to do, and people start playing, some people can't follow what's happening. They just don't see that it's a little too chaotic for a lot of people. But if I put something out there, like people suggest, for 20 minutes, if I put something out there, and then people start to be somewhat free-form, it seems to work better for people. So if I'm giving, partly I feel like what I'm talking about here is basically to enter into this intense and dynamic interaction that's going on all the time.

[80:53]

So I'd like to work towards that. But then there's a side of how much you can, how ready everybody is to do that. And so usually there needs to be some warm-up of some focusing on something in the class or in the Dharma talk. Here, I feel like it's a little bit more open and I can put out less to get started with. But But since it's kind of unusual, it becomes surprising if you suddenly turn to David and ask him to dance, or both Davids and ask both of them to dance with you. You know, it might be so, I don't know what, unusual that it might, you know, then you have to make sure that they could feel comfortable telling you how they felt. So I would When you're being very creative, sometimes maybe you should make sure the person wants to dance with you and ask them.

[82:03]

Be careful, that's all. I think if you're really careful, you can pretty much... I welcome you to experiment. But if you start experimenting at the beginning, right away, it may be that a lot of people feel... difficult to tell you they don't want you to experiment right at the beginning. And I think, generally speaking, people want to discuss whether we're going to do that right at the beginning rather than start with that assumption. And we can work up to that. Is that kind of clear? Is there anything you'd like to do right now? Anything you'd like to do besides clarify that? Is that to give me any feedback? I think if one of you said right now, would anybody like me to give feedback,

[83:19]

You know, some people might feel like, well, you know, do you really want feedback? And you say yes and say, well, I don't feel comfortable what you're asking. Did you follow that? I'm saying it's possible that if one of you right now asked the group, would any of you like to give me feedback, it's possible that someone might say, did you really want me to give you feedback? And the person might say yes and say, well, I don't like you asking for it. I don't like you putting yourself in that position of even asking. Someone might say that. So there would be a danger in doing it. There's a danger when I do it too, but I think in some sense I'm ready for it. Whereas if you ask for feedback, you might get the feedback that people don't want you to ask. Whereas I almost never, almost never do people say, I don't want you to ask for feedback. But if a member of a class who is a so-called student asked for feedback, people could think that they're trying to get attention or something, which they might get.

[84:26]

And the form they might get it is, I don't like you asking for the attention. I don't like you shifting the focus of the group onto you. So then there's this thing, well, how come the focus is on me, the teacher, so-called? Well, people have agreed to that. And I'm willing to shift it, but I have to be careful. And I have actually one time a student said at a session, they said, how come you're sitting in that seat? Are you attached to that seat? Could any of us sit up there? And I said, you want to sit up there? And they said, yeah. So the person went up in the seat, and then she had some other people sit in the seat, and I just was there. And some people found that extremely, extremely difficult to deal with, of having the students sitting in the teacher's seat doing various things. And then it was very upsetting. And one student

[85:28]

actually was going to leave the session because of it. And actually that student who had just received the precepts stopped wearing his raksa afterwards because he felt that what some of the people, first of all, what some of the people did when they were in the seat, he felt was not good. And then also he felt that I shouldn't, that I wasn't taking care of the group by letting other people sit in that seat. So that was in a case where I took a big risk, and I think I let it go too far. That shifting who's on the seat is potentially a... Sometimes we really don't know what we're dealing with here. power of some of the patterns that we're working with here.

[86:31]

So I'm happy to experiment and try different things. But at the same time, we have to be careful. So I think, yeah, let's, in some sense, open it, have a free form. But let's decide together how free we're ready for. OK? Yes. and I'm hearing many of the ideas that we heard earlier, but they're coming across in different ways, and you're using different approaches, structuring your talks differently, you're referring to different scriptures and texts. So I would want it to become too far, because I think I don't want to get too deluded. In the different ways that you present it, it provides a much broader

[87:38]

So, for me, it came to a great form. So, I'm able now to think about rights as a turning point. Two or three years ago, I wouldn't talk about any of this. So now I've got two very neat, sort of different approaches to many of the same ideas. So for me, it's important that it come from you, from the union, by a lot of free-form discussion. So I'd prefer that he set the cake quite specifically in some detail. I didn't have any commotion about jumping in and sort of figure it out at the beginning.

[88:57]

And I'm feeling like, well, you know, I should sit back and hear it. Don't speak. Yeah, literally. It's a wild card. So I want to hear all that. Yeah. Yeah. So that's what I meant, is that most people prefer setting the table, and then if people move stuff around, they know the way the table was set. And when you move things around, it's in relationship to the way it was set up. So it's still bearing sort of on the same setup. And then also I can say something about when somebody moves something, I can say, well, you moved it, but then that changed something. You changed something there. I can comment on the rearrangement, too, and people understand what I'm doing. They can see what I'm saying because they saw the pattern that was first set up there.

[90:00]

So I think we need something like that. And most people want that. And that's sort of what I'm doing, is rhapsodizing on a basic theme. A very basic theme in Sojo Zen is this central... criterion for what the central meditation practice is and how to enter it. And then we're doing that right now. So now it's about five o'clock. It's 514. And we could have a a period of sitting, or we could have, we could say, you can return to the zendo and sit up until evening service, or you could have an exercise period and go to the zendo by ten to six. How's that seem? Okay?

[91:01]

So, see you in the zendo, Everybody please come by 10 to 6, and other people go whenever they want to prior to that. All right? And dinner will be, that's when it's scheduled? That's when it will be. All right? Yes, Jan? Jan? Oh, I see. That's one problem, isn't it? So, but if you wanted to go before, it would be a problem, wouldn't it? Because otherwise he has to stand at the door for 45 minutes. Right? Well, I don't know. The school is out now, right? Can we use the brick when the school's not in session? George? No, we'll take turns, baby. It looks like the door is locked.

[92:09]

It's a sneaky mind. Let's see what happens. Thank you very much.

[92:17]

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