The title of this course in Zen meditation is The Practice of Renunciation. During this course we will examine the nature of renunciation in Zen meditation. It says in Zen meditation, but Grazias say renunciation as Zen meditation or Zen meditation as renunciation. And we will practice of renunciation or how the practice of Zen meditation is the key to wisdom and compassion. The key or also you could call the mode of entry into of wisdom and compassion, the practice where wisdom and compassion are working together.

[01:09]

And it says, in particular, we will explore how precepts of the bodhisattva can be practiced in the context of renunciation. How many people are not familiar with the term bodhisattva? Raise your hands if you aren't familiar with that term. One person? Bodhi means awakening. Sanskrit word means awakening. And sattva means being. So it's an awakening being, a being in the process of awakening. And the term was originally used to describe the founding teacher of the tradition called Buddhism refers to the Buddha as the Buddha was waking up. And according to the tradition, the Buddha was waking up for a long, long, long time.

[02:17]

The Buddha woke up through many lifetimes. It wasn't just in that that lifetime that occurred 2,500 years ago that the Buddha woke up. It wasn't just the first 35 years of his life that was the awakening process. All of that was part of it. The awakening process occurred over many lifetimes according to the Buddhist tradition. And during those lifetimes, the Buddha was sometimes a man, sometimes a woman, and sometimes other animals. So it's a very long process of awakening. So beings that are in the process of awakening or becoming awakened are sometimes called bodhisattvas. And this means not just awakening a little bit, this means in the process of the fullest and most complete form of awakening.

[03:18]

And that kind of awakening also is conjoined with and based on and is born from compassion. And so these Bodhisattva precepts practice of compassion and for these beings who are in the process of awakening. Part of what you can start considering is I guess what your own personal aspirations in life are and how they relate to what I'll be presenting and how they'll relate to what I'm the bodhisattva path of renunciation

[04:23]

compassion and wisdom. So this the path of the life of... of... of being... awakening, which I'll say, of a being who is awakening, that path is sometimes presented as having three elements, one being renunciation, and the other is to being compassion and wisdom.

[05:26]

Our renunciation is very simple and in one sense also lots of different ways to try to understand what it is. It's always hard to know which way of talking about it to start with, which is the best way to start. So which way should I start with? I'm having trouble deciding.

[06:51]

I can't choose between two ways I want to present, so I'm going to present two ways tonight. One is that renunciation is to give up everything. Just give up everything. Let go of everything. Now, especially it is to let go of anything, or I should say to let go of everything that takes you away from what's happening. Everything that takes you away from just being where you are, which is, as you may know, here.

[07:56]

here anything that takes you away from being here which is impossible but still somehow some things seem to be able to take us away from here because we have this fantastic imagination anything that takes you away from here let go of it give it up anything that takes you away from now Just let go of it. So that's the first way of talking about it. And I'm suggesting that this way of being, where we actually let go of everything that takes us away from now, mode in which we will enter into the the life of wisdom and compassion working together there can be some compassion even if you're like not here

[09:19]

not now. You can be somewhat compassionate and be quite distracted. For example, you can be thinking about somebody right now who's not here, or thinking about something you're going to do, not now, that might be helpful to someone. You might be thinking of that, but you might be thinking about it in such a way as being here. So a compassionate thought could be conjoined with tightly holding on to something that takes you away from being here. You could wish, you could wish the very best for one or more sincerely wish well someone and yet be holding on to something that takes you completely away from being really present here. But that kind of compassion that goes with not being present is not conjoined with wisdom.

[10:22]

You could also be somewhat wise and not be present. But that kind of wisdom doesn't go with compassion. Because compassion doesn't skip over what's happening and move on to something. Compassion doesn't go away from here and away from now. It deals with this moment of life now. It really deals with what's happening and works from that rather than working on something more interesting or important. For example, maybe you're all in pretty good health because you managed to get here tonight, but you may know someone else was really sick and you care about that person so you start thinking about that person which is fine as long as thinking about that person does not take you away from feeling the thinker who is you was thinking about that person but if you're not careful and you grab

[11:39]

and your concern and love for that person, if you hold on to it in such a way that it takes you away from yourself, your compassion for that person is not conjoined with wisdom, is less effective and alive. Present here, while you think of that person and not be distracted from what's happening while you think of that person, then that compassion can be joined with wisdom. And then that wisdom, whatever wisdom you have, can be joined to compassion. So the key thing about renunciation is let go of anything away from being present. So in a sense, renunciation is complete presence, completely being here. And again, ...tonight is that completely being here means the price of completely being here is you have to give up holding onto or grasping anything that takes you away.

[12:51]

It doesn't mean you push these thoughts away, like the thought of tomorrow or later tonight. It doesn't mean you push those thoughts away. It's buzzing around in somebody's head here probably. Like 9.45 is in somebody's head now. Later tonight, a midnight snack. Greeting your spouse. Who knows what? A late night TV show. Maybe a meditation session. Some wonderful thing. If that thought rises in your mind and you grab it and hold it, and it takes you away from being in this ordinary room with these ordinary people in this ordinary class, which just happens to be happening, anything that takes you away has to be released in order for you to be present. So being present involves not grasping anything, including the present.

[13:53]

That's the first lesson in renunciation. And I'm glad this class has eight sessions because there's lots of different ways to get at this practice of renunciation, which now you know can also be called the practice of being present. But also you know that, according to me anyway, the practice of being completely present involves giving something up. As a matter of fact, it involves giving everything up. Because if you hold on to just a couple of the things, that's enough to throw you a little off of being present. You can be somewhat present and hold on to a few things. Like, you know, your telephone number, your address, your name. You can hold on to them and be fairly present. Like, here I am, and I know my telephone number, and I got it right here. But my telephone number detracts from me being completely here.

[15:04]

because I'm afraid to be here, not holding onto my telephone number. So give up your telephone number. If you're really scared, write down a piece of paper, and I'll give it to you after class. Your name, too. We all know your name now, so you can let go of your name. You don't have to reject your name, change your name, like Dorit. I didn't know what her name would be tonight, but it's still Dorit. So you can let go of your name. You can let go of everything, including even being here, and that will allow you to be here. So that's the first thing I wanted to say about renunciation. So maybe I'll just stop there. If there's something you would like to say, and before you say something, I wanted to say that sometimes during meditation I go around between the rows and I sometimes check people's posture.

[16:13]

I sometimes touch their back or head to see how you're Mind in your posture. And if you do not want me to do that, just let me know and I won't touch you. Otherwise, I'll check your posture and make some suggestion. And my suggestion is having to do with a way of sitting that I think would help you be present. I'm not correcting your posture. Your posture is fine, but I might suggest a way of sitting that I feel would help you be more aware. You could receive that suggestion and see if it helps you be here more fully. If not, just consider it my suggestion and let it go. Actually, even if it is helpful, just consider it my suggestion and let it go.

[17:19]

Is there any questions about this so far, this practice of renunciation? Okay, I guess that was not too difficult. Well, here's a question. Yes, Linda? If you're sitting and then you notice that you're holding on to something and not releasing it, what's the practice in that case? You just admit you're holding on, okay, because that's what's happening. And then you let go of that holding on in any way that that holding on will take you away from being just with noticing that holding on.

[18:37]

So I'm suggesting, I'm saying let go of anything that takes you away. And if you find yourself being with some, if you find yourself just being with something, It isn't necessarily taking you away. But if you're holding on to something, and you find that your way of holding it, just being with what you're happening, then I would say, well, now you're there. So just be present with that. And don't try to, like, be someone other than the person who's holding on to this thing. Just be the clinger. And then you're, like, just... letting go of anything that takes you away from being the clinger. Now you're like the unskillful renunciate. Okay, that's what's happening. You just recognize that. You're not practicing renunciation. So the way you practice renunciation is you just don't get distracted from that.

[19:44]

And then there's renunciation right in the midst of non-renunciation. Now, you may prefer some other situation, like, how about renunciation in the middle of renunciation, but that isn't what you're doing. You've just admitted that you're clinging to something. So, if you admit it, you're back on track. Michael? Michael? with the pronunciation and also, in fact, the way you talk. It seems if even when you're present in a room, when someone's talking, you might not necessarily be able to focus on what they're saying. Sometimes you might be focusing on what you're actually going to say in response to that. It should develop into some type of thought. So is that distracting from being present in a way? Well, you have to look and see. And if it is distracting you, if you are developing your thought in such a way that you're not right there with your thought, then I'm suggesting this practice is to let go of developing your thought in such a way that you're... and trying to make the thought go in such a way that you feel like, for example, you're trying to get it to develop.

[21:09]

Are you actually like... attached to the thought developing. If the thought's developing and you're just there with it and watching it develop, like watching a child grow up or a plant grow or blossom, if you're just there with it, and you're just there with it, right there and here and now, even though it's developing, there doesn't need to be any grasping of it, and you're right there and nothing's taking you away. start expecting where the planet's going to be in the next moment, or where the child's going to go in the next moment, or where your thought's going to go in the next moment, plus you wish it would go in some kind of like developed, improving mode, then you're starting to grasp after that and not take care of what's here. So it is possible to watch something develop with this presence which does not expect it to develop in any particular way.

[22:21]

Right now you may wish that this would develop in a very healthy way. You do not seek anything other than what you've got now. And if you notice you're seeking something other than what you've got now, then you should give that up because it's taking you away from the thought you have now. this stage of development. Now, if it's at this stage of development and you do not seek another stage of development, but just you, and you don't seek this one either, you don't have to seek the one that's happening, you work with what's happening, and then if it does develop, you work with that development, and if it develops further, you work with that one. So you can deal with the developing process. Each step of the way, you're just with that step, and you're not expecting the next one. And if you are expecting the next one, you can start to notice how that drains you and disorients you and makes you a miserable person. Now, it may be rather subtle, so you may not notice right away, but this dislocation of our life away from what's happening causes, is basically our problem.

[23:34]

So, it's hard to notice in little case, but... And it doesn't mean the thought doesn't develop. It just means you are not seeking anything in the process of development. So if you have any questions about that, let's look at a particular case and see if we can kind of like seeking. So another way to put it, about how you give up whatever takes you away is that you give up seeking anything else from what's happening. Another way of talking about it. Yes, Michael? The word renunciation seems like a fairly loaded word. It's loaded, yeah. As opposed to letting go. Uh-huh. So, you know, thinking about the word renunciation, There's a certain part of the words that led them pretty much together, and that word itself, not necessarily driving it so much, but just kind of thinking about it.

[24:50]

But isn't there an interaction there? Is the thought somewhat developing at the same time you're playing with it a little bit? There can be playing with it. But in the playing with it, is there giving up the play? And you have to see whether you're playing with it with a seeking, grasping mode, or whether you're playing with it with each moment of the play. And what some people do is they... Well, I guess I shouldn't say... But when you really let the play go, don't try to maneuver it. A lot of the type of play, I should say you, but when one does this, one often experiences that a lot of the type of the play of the mind that we're used to doesn't happen anymore.

[25:53]

But it doesn't mean that that play couldn't happen. It's just that a lot of the patterns of... plays of our thoughts and developments of our thoughts are habitually connected with not being present. And when you are present, those lines sometimes drop away for a while. They might come back later and be able to live their life without this seeking and distraction from the present. You have to again just basically check, are you moving away from this current P of the lay? Or are you into the play? What's next happening? Are you find yourself being lifted away from your guts? Are you like completely here and playing from here? And what kind of play can come from here without moving away from here as you play?

[26:56]

staying present here while this stuff unfolds. So theoretically any kind of thought pattern could come from this kind of central pure presence, but you have to check and see. And if you notice that you're being drawn away, then let the play go. and then see what comes again from being present. And you may find that certain elaborate, certain types of elaborations maybe go limp or flat or drop away for a while. Eventually, any thought pattern could evolve into a different kind of presence. But temporarily at least, you may find certain patterns stop. And that's why you hear people talking in meditation about certain kinds of stuff stops. Certain kind of stuff doesn't happen anymore. That's a phase in this process of distraction is that certain patterns of distraction lose their causal basis.

[28:08]

And so those stories don't happen anymore sometimes. But theoretically they could happen later from a new place. From here, from over there at some other time, even though of course they are happening here and now. But we don't realize that. So it's a question of realizing what's happening and not getting distracted by grasping what's happening. I was thinking about for a moment, isn't it, something you talked about a couple of weeks ago in relation to mothers and children and conversation and trying to stop the colon infection of the conversation.

[29:10]

And I wondered if that seemed like a similar description to what you described now. That stuff you I wouldn't say stop wanting to control because you still might want to control, but give up wanting to control and give up trying to control. So that's another topic, is that you're here in the present, like here we are, you and I talking. I'm talking to you, you're talking to me, I'm listening to you, you're listening to me. Okay, here we are. And I may wish to control a situation, or you may wish to control it, or maybe we don't. But usually there's, often there's an impulse to control what's happening. And an impulse to control is similar to wanting to control.

[30:11]

So there is often that impulse, and now let go of that impulse. And have a conversation without trying to control, giving up trying to control. I said without trying to control. that's even maybe a little heavy. It's more like give up trying to control because it may still be flowing around somewhere in the neighborhood. So I'm kind of like, you know, let go of that. Again, can you notice how when you're talking to somebody and there's an impulse to control the conversation, can you notice how if you go with that impulse, ...control the conversation, how that takes you away from being with the person. Can you notice how that, or put it the other way, if you can notice how if you would let go of that impulse, how suddenly you're back with the person, and suddenly... Or if they're off, if they're trying to control, and you ask them if they would be willing to, like, let go, would you be willing to, like,

[31:29]

Let go of trying to control this conversation. Sometimes you may feel like the other person is trying to control the conversation. You ever had that feeling? They're trying to win the conversation. They're trying to define what the conversation is about. It isn't that I want to win. First of all, I get to define what it's about. And then if you ask the other person if they would be willing to, and then they do. Like they come to be here too. It's like your faces are on your faces more. Of course they always were there, but somehow giving up. Suddenly here we are back with our hands on our hands and our face on our face. But a lot of fathers think that fatherhood is not about intimacy, it's about controlling the kids. And so they sometimes miss their kids because they're trying to control their kids, which is a real sad thing.

[32:41]

One of the great things about being a grandparent is that you don't so much feel like you have to control the kids, so you can like be there with them. So it's a great joy to like actually be there with this amazing thing, which is also kind of like doesn't know how not to beat it. So they're kind of like, they're kind of going, Huh? Huh? You know? And you're like, yeah, I'm here. And we don't have to have any discipline of you to be any other way than this. It's just great, you know? The parent, however, feels like, you know, got to get this kid on schedule. They don't all feel that way, but it's hard not to be a little controlling when you're a parent. Yeah, so that is an example. Gwen? By asking someone to let go of the conversation, is that just another way of you trying to control the conversation?

[33:47]

It definitely could be, but it might not be. So it could be possibly you're trying to get control of the conversation by getting them to let go of the conversation. If they would let go of defining it, then you could define it. The other one would be, is that you're not trying to control the conversation over to you being in control, but you'd like to control it over into the thing of neither one of you being in control. So you don't want to be in control, but you want to control it enough to that neither one of you are in charge. That's a kind of control too. It's a kind of version of control. But it still could be that way. But you could also just be, it could just be offering. It could be kind of like, hey, I got a present for you. What is it? I'm going to ask you to let go of trying to control the conversation. And the person is, well, I don't want to. And you say, wow. That surprised me.

[34:50]

Thank you. But you're really not trying to, you're not saying it. So this is another key factor of being present is you don't, when you're present, In presence, you don't say things to get something to happen other than what's happening. You say something about how you feel in the present. That's your gift. But you don't say it in order to... You don't have an expectation of what you say. You say, like, I would like you to do something. But you don't say that to get them to do something. You say it because that's an expression of who you are at that moment. You don't seek anything. And you're right there. You kind of like, you feel your arm go, you feel the shoulder operating, you know, and you feel your armpit in a different way. And then they say, what do you want? You say, well, actually, I can't remember. I'm sort of so unaware of my arm here, you know.

[35:54]

And then they say, you know, well, you're a strange thing. And I can see how you feel that way. Oh, I remember what I wanted to say. You know, I would like you to, you know, actually, I'd like you to be just the way you are now. It's great. The way it was before, you know, I felt like you were trying to control the conversation and I wanted you to stop. So thanks. But I said that, you know, not to get you to do it, but just to tell you that that's what you've got in your hands here as a person who would like you to do it. If you want to get people to do stuff, telling them and being present isn't the way to go. If you want to control people... Keep, you know, don't tell them what's going on. You can manipulate much more, much better if you're dishonest and not in the present. But of course, this is like, not the bodhisattva way.

[36:59]

This is the way of passion. This is the way of cruelty. This is the way of missing your life with people. But just to, like, tell people where you're at completely without even any thought of, like, how that's going to make the situation... Well, seeking, other than this, that's what I'm talking about. And then you have to look to see, was there any seeking in it? And sometimes there isn't. And then you're really there, and then you're starting to enter into a real compassionate, wise relationship, which isn't your compassion or your... It's more like you enter into that kind of life. that way of being, you get to go in that place where wisdom is purifying compassion and compassion is developing wisdom. You get to be in that world because you pay the price. Don't distract yourself.

[38:01]

Don't be distracted from here and now. Yeah? You said before, I think, that Sometimes it was hard to notice when we were holding on. Subtle. Sometimes it is very subtle, yeah. My experience is mostly like that's all I can notice in a way, like the deep things, like whatever. I have to do the tomorrow and I don't think I can do it, so holding on to that. But also with like all these small things that come in and go fast, like... Is my friend Gloria okay? Or, you know, just fast things. But what I mostly notice in myself is the agitation of that. Mm-hmm. The agitation of what? Even that moment moving up where I am.

[39:05]

Okay, so there you are. The thought, how's my friend Gloria doing, occurs in your mind. Right. Okay? And then if you Grab that thought, how's my friend Gloria doing, then you'll be agitated. If you don't grasp that thought, just let the thought, how's my friend Gloria doing, you just let it come up and be present with it, you won't be agitated. It almost feels like I don't have to grasp something to be agitated. You know, what you were saying about coming fast, that's like, you know, whatever, the wind, it doesn't take much of a wind to... So you're proposing, it seems like I hear you're proposing that you can be agitated without grasping anything. Oh, you're changing it, that's very important. A tiny bit of grasping,

[40:07]

A tiniest little bit of grasping, and there will be agitation. Pardon? Oh, great. A tiny bit of grasping, big agitation. Well, I would say congratulations for noticing that, because that's exactly what... very advanced meditators know this, is that a tiny bit of grasping can lead to agitation. Originally, our grasping is a tiny little thing. It's a tiny little subtle thing, which is, for example, that we think something exists by itself in isolation of the entire universe. We think something can be out there. We think we can look at something and something could be out there, actually completely independent of us looking at it.

[41:09]

Now, the meditators, the awakened people say, there isn't anything out there. There aren't things out there looking at them. If you don't look at things, if you don't look at the world, the world does not come in things. The way the world is, is it doesn't actually, the world doesn't actually happen thingy. There is a world, but it doesn't come in things. It comes in things when people look at it. It's not that there's nothing, like there's absolutely nonexistence. It's just that when we look at things, when we look at the world, and all the tremendous complexity and causation, when we look at it with our mind, our mind precipitates things. That thing's out there on its own. And we have very nicely developed equipment to actually think that, and that's very useful for us to think that something's out there independent of us.

[42:12]

It is a useful adaptation to humans. It was useful a long time ago, and we haven't got over it. We've developed all kinds of illnesses based on that tiny grasping. But that tiny grasping agitates us a little bit and then a little bit more and a little bit more and a little bit more. So that's why we have to actually do this amazing thing, which, again, first of all, renunciation to get into the ballpark, we start to notice this agitation and then Notice how the agitation is. That's the compassion to notice and be aware of that and to notice how it's connected to this clinging. And to keep working this back and forth until we actually have no clinging. And then there's no agitation. And then there is perfect wisdom and perfect compassion.

[43:17]

But if there's a little bit of holding, that's enough vibrating and be the source of all kinds of suffering so we have to like be that's why also you need to practice renunciation to be able to like really be present so that you can see the kind of thing that Judas saw and then how you can how the little bit of grasping causes big agitation then you how can you be with that How can you not be distracted from seeing the grasping and the agitation? How can you be present with that? Which also means not try to like, okay, now I'm going to really understand it. No. Because that takes you away from your... Just be with your present vision of this problem that you've noticed and don't try to develop that beyond what's being presented to you right now right now you're all being given your current state of insight everybody's got a certain level of insight and understanding of what reality is right now that's what's being given to you and to receive that and be with that is how it will develop and deepen but if you wish for a deeper insight than you have that and that

[44:42]

impedes the process of the positive evolution of your insight and actually throws you out of the purifying process of wisdom and compassion working together. So a little bit of clinging is enough to create a whole world of suffering. So we need to actually like consider whether we wish to get actually to the bottom of this clinging and go all the way down to letting it go. And that means also then being really calm. Calm is basically that we're not distracted from being here by grasping a little bit even. So it's good that you notice that.

[45:43]

Very good. Now you need to sort of like take care of yourself with that awareness, with that presentation when it comes. And try not to find it or be any different from the person who's clinging just a little bit and who's really big, agitated. And you may hear about other people, like your neighbors, who are a little bit agitated. And you might wish to change bodies with them. Well, it's understandable, but that's not going to help get over the little bit of clinging that you're doing. And you have the advantage over them, is they don't... That if they reduced their clinging way, way down, they'd still be agitated.

[46:44]

At least you know that a little bit is too much. They're happy because they're not so agitated, but they don't understand what you understand. So everybody has an advantage from being who they are. Each of you is sitting in the place where you're going to wake up with your stuff. So don't try to trade with somebody else who seems to have a better meditation practice than you. Of course, the most advanced meditation practices are ones where people are not trying to get a better meditation practice, who are really happy to work with this. Again, that's renunciation. Anything else you want to bring up tonight about

[47:50]

I'm sort of a little bit somewhat holding back, letting this whole thing blossom all over the place with all these different meanings of renunciation. I'd like to sort of like... different aspects and different meanings. We've already seen several aspects come up tonight, right? Which I'll bring up again in other classes. Ever heard anything about this point? This point of like being present, not getting distracted from what's happening that you want to bring up? I don't want to limit Yes? Can I say something? There too, may I point out that you don't try to be present. Trying to be present is a bit of a distraction. So I don't say stay present and I don't say try to be present. The language is be present. So if you try to be present, then it's kind of like, well, I'm not present now, so I'm going to try to be present.

[48:57]

So I'm committed to some presence, but I want to be careful not to try to be present, because I'll miss the way I'm present now if I do that. I might. So you want to start over? So if you're present, you can take a motion. Yes. If you start talking about it, Okay, so Donald just came from Gringold Sashin and so did Carolyn, where I talked about there's, in some sense, two aspects. All these different ways of talking about can be presented in two ways. One is an intra-psychic way of working with it, and the other is an interpersonal way of working with it. For a lot of people, it's easiest to start getting a sense of being present physically.

[50:01]

And then if you can be present, feel present and feel like I'm just right here and I'm not someplace else, hey, this is great. Here I am, you know. The piano's playing, but I'm just right here. And I'm not thinking about when it's going to stop or how long it's been going on. Or if I do think about those things, they don't take me away from just being right here with you. And then if I start talking to you, however, as we start to interact, it is kind of a step up in the practice to move it into the interpersonal realm, which is much... It isn't exactly that the interpersonal realm is more dynamic, it's just that you start to see the dynamism which you might not have noticed intra-psychically. It isn't that it makes you less present, it's just that you sometimes do get distracted when you start talking.

[51:09]

even before the other person responds. As you start to talk, you may have trouble keeping up with your voice, experiencing yourself, listening to yourself while you speak, feeling your throat vibrate, feeling your chest, being with your posture. All that may be more difficult as you start to speak. So we do want to try to bring this meditation into speech, but it is harder. Especially when the other person starts saying stuff to you like, I disagree, etc. Or, that frightens me, or whatever. Then it's hard to really be present with that. In the Zen situation, the student maybe is sitting in the meditation hall and settling with her experience and being present with her experience.

[52:13]

And then she goes to see the teacher just to see if when she meets the teacher she can continue to be present as she goes into the and meets the teacher. And a lot of people say that they lose it as they're approaching. They lose it while they're waiting outside to see the teacher. They start thinking of When they're going to be in the room, instead of like sitting out there feeling what it's like to be outside the room, they start saying. And again, you can think about what you're going to say without getting distracted from the person who's there thinking about what you're saying, but also people tend to like get distracted and they go in the room and they completely start thinking of wanting to get out of the room and wondering why they went. into a room with a person voluntarily went in there to be in a room with a person that they now want to be out of the room and not with the person. Because why? What's the problem?

[53:15]

What's happening that it's so hard to be present? It's basically just, I don't think that it really is harder, it's just interpersonally our habits of clinging come up very strongly because I think these are basically adaptations. These distractions are basically adaptations for how to be the social animal. That's why they're very useful at one point in our development. They grow up. All these interpersonal things are what develop all this equipment to feel separate from things. So anyway, it is harder. And so if the student comes in, and loses it, then they get sent back to sit more and be more present, and then when they're more present, they come back. So back and forth until it's homogenized, until you feel as present going to see the teacher as being by yourself, and you feel as present in the conversation as you do sitting in meditation.

[54:19]

And in and outside of the meditation hall, you feel pretty much the same. But at first, it feels like a big difference. You feel, like, calm, and then you go outside and you feel upset. So we're trying to like homogenize it, but it takes a long time. So that's why in this class we have some quiet time, interactive time, hopefully. You can feel the difference between the two. And also you can tell the difference between being present when you're watching two other people talk and what it's like when you're talking. You can see the difference. Does that make sense? Anything else tonight you want to bring up about this aspect of renunciation? Well, one other thing that comes to my mind to bring up is that

[55:30]

this is being present with here or being present here and being present now It's a way of being, but it is a way of being with something that's happening. It's not just a way of being, it's a way of being with something that's happening. So renunciation is intimacy. Intimacy. So it's not just that you're like, hey, I'm letting everything go, and I'm not distracted.

[56:41]

It is that, but it's also, I am here with what's happening. I am very close with this body and this mind, and I'm very close with these people and this piano sound. I'm very intimate with this, but I'm not sticking to any of it. and therefore none of it's taking me away from being with it. So it has this non-attachment and non-seeking, but also closeness. It's not attachment and non-seeking with nothing. It is attachment and non-seeking with the world. And the world means my body, my thoughts, and how you appear to me, how my mind, my senses make you for me I'm with that and this kinda presence makes me feel closer to you the way you are right now not closer to the way you will be the way you have been just the way you are now so you can practice this

[57:58]

week within yourself and when you meet other people by the sense of being really with yourself as you're happening and also be with yourself as you're happening with others as they're happening for you. So when I say that I think boy this sounds just wonderful. challenging, but how wonderful to be able to really be there with everybody you meet. Not trying to control them, just enjoy the wonderful experiences you have with these people. And when they make those faces, those sour, nasty faces, Give up anything that takes your nasty face.

[59:01]

I don't know if that sounds wonderful. I mean, it's nice to be with happy, sweet, friendly faces. That's great. But to finally be able to be with all faces, all kinds of twisted suffering faces, this is complete suffering of the life of the bodhisattva. They do not shrink back from unhappy, suffering people. They do not get distracted from happiness. free people either. They're present with everybody, everybody they meet, everybody they experience.

[60:08]

Okay? So maybe we could conclude with a period of sitting. Does this class end at 9.15? If you'd like, you can stand up for a little while, just stretch your legs, and then we can sit down and conclude with a little bit of sitting.

[60:28]

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