Are you referring to the person who's talking outside of the meditation hall? Was he talking on a cell phone? Yeah. Yeah. In the end, what? He laughed. I would like to do something. so if you have this

[01:11]

Did you feel he was in any particular danger? Yes? Pretty soon, it's his bus. I thought it was like a Bodhisattva with the intention of the thing.

[02:41]

I mean, I just... you know, children, shamelessly unrepenting. I just thought it was wonderful. The whole thing was just... I don't know. Yeah. All right. I thought about it too. I mean, I wondered if it was inappropriate. I wondered if it was inappropriate for sisters to laugh during meditation.

[03:45]

I thought he'd got an awareness. And then when he had that awareness, he started swearing. I'm aware. I'm aware. I gave the wrong directions. I'm aware. He had asked for help. He said, Pam, can you talk to them and give them directions? I was not laughing at him. It was dialect. It was loud. I was laughing at his uh-huh. that he got the release of, how many times do I do it? All in that moment, which we're all trying so desperately to wake up to, and sitting there trying to be aware of war, and there's someone shouting outside the window. In vernacular. Then they heard the chant. And then they would get more aware of their effect and impact.

[05:06]

I thought it was really, I did not feel an ounce of remorse of, if anything, I was concerned that I might have been disrespectful to the But I don't want to take it too seriously. Then I suspect it's probably capable of something sort of amusing, like that comes along. That's helpful, because I actually couldn't hear, and I didn't hear the... So I would say, hopefully, that's going to be true. I've never laughed out loud before ever. When I first heard what was happening, I felt, oh, I hope this man gets help soon. And then I noticed that I felt that for him more than for us.

[06:08]

And then I also wished it for us that he would get help soon. But first it was for him, and I thought that was nice. But then, as it went on, the birds or whatever it was just going on it was going on it was going on and then there was this like change there were some changes you know and it kept going on and then there was this moment where the laughter I started to smile and then there was this moment where somebody laughed and I felt like the whole room laughed and I laughed at the whole room and it felt like it was our support I just felt like a real gift to laugh And I think it's fascinating that we each, in everybody's book, everybody becomes like... On the way out, I opened the other door, and they turned around, and the gentleman said, And I said, no, I'm just trying to get out the door.

[07:25]

He said, you know, in these buildings, there's always a green button near the inside to let you out the door. And I said, you're welcome. That was my encounter. But I had a thought during... the time when we were hearing those voices, that we're actually, he was at 140, which is exactly where we were. There was a moment when he said the address, you know, for like the video. The address hasn't changed. We go right at the light. I really appreciate that Mark did talk to him and expressed that we weren't mad at him because he did look stricken when we were walking out.

[08:49]

And since I was in silence, I feel like I could go up to him and say, oh, you know, you couldn't have known there were people in the building, right? But I'm so glad he said that. That's what I told him. Couldn't have known. It's okay. She knew. I went talking to her. She said she never heard of Buddha. She kept asking me, you know, is he like Jesus? She knew that there was a lot of comfort in this. She had seen the subject very well. She said, okay, she said that to me.

[09:52]

She gave you a different story? She gave me a different story. You've got to believe your teacher. You can answer any one. I'm telling you, yeah. I saw her today. She was appreciative of the overall concert. So tonight, after the ceremony is over, we'll just be quiet and sit for a little while and continue our usual evening practice.

[11:26]

And then tomorrow morning, tomorrow around the middle, noon or so, you can express your congratulations and so on if you wish. more informal phase of our retreat. I guess the morning is the same as usual. Does that work? And then we have lunch, which I understand is leftovers. And then what? Have a final session. So we... Okay. So we have lunch, have a session, and then... But if we have to... By two. We're two-ish. Which kind of advice is...

[12:29]

Oh, you mean we can... Zendo? Zendo doesn't have to be emptied by 2 o'clock? Right. Oh. That was the rooms. Yeah, just the rooms and, you know, it's just a matter of... Maybe some of you saw the parts already on the floor. There were sheets and columns. Maybe it's off to Zendo. No. What should we bring up to the Zendo? What should be brought to the Zendo? Well, would you please tell us when we need to start getting out and moving stuff? As you sense what's... You can decide.

[13:44]

Whatever you think is necessary, we'll follow your suggestion, probably. The key thing about it is that it could be all the wounds. to get things out of the way as much as possible. That's what I would like to do. That's what I would like to do. I would like to do that. [...] You mean out of his room?

[14:51]

Oh, I see you. Is there anything you'd like to bring up? Yes? I think you have to look at yourself to see whether you're being disrespectful. Laughter in itself is not disrespectful. As a matter of fact, in the story I just told you, Bai Zhang laughed when Wang Bo slapped him.

[16:22]

He laughed. He laughed in appreciation. Bai Zhang has to look at himself to find out whether he was being disrespectful. Sometimes they get into a thing where they're laughing nervously, they can't stop. So then I tell them to stop. When they first laugh, I usually feel okay about it. But sometimes they can't stop because they think they're not supposed to, like little kids. So they just keep going and going, laughing at each other, laughing. And, you know, so I usually tell them to stop at that point. And usually they do. But they usually seem to need some instruction at that point. But just when there's an outburst that dies down, it seems almost always fine. Can you ask June something?

[17:52]

Sure. Is that alright with June? June is relieved. Wang Bo asked me, if the monk in ancient times had not given the wrong answer, then what would have happened?

[19:10]

And Bajang said, come closer, and Wang Bo slapped him. He wasn't slapping him because of what... Wang Bo wasn't slapping Bajang because of what Bajang said. I wasn't slapping him. Because he was his teacher, right? Was it like a term of... The slap? Come closer. Danger. Danger. Danger. Thank you. versus I'm not sure what the word is up there.

[20:47]

I couldn't quite hear what you said. Your impression of the retreat? Oh, your impressionability. Ah. You're impressionable. Is that to me? Okay. but as I step into other environments that I would like to be in connection. How do I? How do I do this? Do we have the air conditioning on? I think Linda said something like, her opinion of her body-mind is that it's an impressionable one.

[22:33]

And then she said that sometimes it's good to be impressionable, and sometimes she said it's not good. Like, you know, if something's soft, like clay, and you press on it, you can make an impression. So that's an impressionable surface. Impressionable is a little bit like malleable, but it's often used for people that they're, like, you can say something to them and they're shaped by it. They're modified by it. They're impressed by it. Not just like, oh, I'm impressed, but it kind of changes them a little bit. It would be like somebody who goes to a movie, and when they walk out, they start talking with the accent of the star or something. Or they start walking in a similar way that one of the stars in the movie walked.

[23:36]

So the dramatic people they're interacting with change them somewhat afterwards, right? So, but you know, would you like me to respond to your comment that impressionable is sometimes good and sometimes not good? I don't feel that impressionable is not good sometimes and good other times. I think if a person is impressionable, I don't think that's good or bad. So... It's more like, I think, if that's the way you are at that moment. But it seems like what would be the way of dealing with the oppression. So what were the situations where you see some potential harm in being impressionable? What kind of situations are harmful and what kind are beneficial, when you think about it?

[24:39]

Getting impressed with business, did you say? There are some areas that I'm committed to. Maybe thinking that it's nice to be impressionable if you move into an environment where the resonance will make your being more beneficial to yourself and others. That's nice to be shaped by a positive environment. You might say the bad part, but I would say maybe the dangerous part is that you could be shaped by a negative environment, like busyness or something, and then that being affected by the negative environment might possibly disturb some of the effects of being in a positive environment.

[26:26]

Is that some of your concerns or your thoughts? Comment on that? Another word you used in there somewhere was solidify. I kind of feel like the effects of, for example, being in a pleasant environment where there's... I feel like a lot of them are good myself. Actually, if you go into a temple where people are being quiet and kind to each other, and there's nobody there, but they've been doing it for a while, you can feel it.

[27:27]

It comes off the wood in the room, even if the monks or nuns aren't even in the space. If they're in there, you can feel strongly. But even when they're not there, the environment absorbs something of the... You can probably explain it even physically. And if you... If the monks and nuns have been... Anyway, the practitioners haven't been in the space for a really long time, you can barely feel it. That's my experience. I've been in temples where... I'm just walking the door, and it's just a building, you know, I'll be walking the door, and you just feel the care that the people have expressed, and it just... and also from the room. And I went into one of these temples about... seven... about 14 years later.

[28:35]

from the first time I went in. And I didn't know it was the same room, and I didn't recognize it. But after I was staying, I was actually staying in that place, this temple that I visited, and I figured out it was the same place I stayed before, but it had no life anymore. And the nuns who lived there had moved out before. Their teacher had died, so they left that temple. But when I went in there, And this was a small women's monastery down the hill from a big men's monastery. And the men's monastery is one of the, in some sense, one of the most active and healthy training monasteries in Japan, in Rinzai. Very good feeling. But when I went into the nun's temple, I felt even better. The feeling of warmth and kindness was even stronger there than in the men's monastery. I was really touched. It just kind of like glowed.

[29:40]

So then when I went back to the men's monastery 13 years later, they put me up in the women's monastery, but there was no women there anymore. But as I gradually figured out where this place was relative to the men's monastery, I thought this might be the place. I looked around. And I went around the front, and I went in the front to look in how it was when you come in the front door, because when I was staying there, I went in the back door. I said, this is the same place. And then I asked, and they said, yeah. They closed it down. But it was almost unrecognizable. There was some physical change in terms of this kind of resonance. So I think there is something to this that even wood, not to mention a person or clay, picks up vibrations literally from, like, hitting bells, sends off sound waves, which transforms wood. It changed the shape of wood just because of this physical impact of the sound waves of a bell on a tree that's nearby.

[30:48]

And if you have a bell that grows up next to a tree, it will have a different structure from a bell that's farther from the tree, or a bell that never hears... Excuse me, a tree that's... or a tree that grows up with no bells around. But a bell that's rung kindly sends off a certain sound which will change the physical structure of the tree. And you could look at the tree and compare it to other trees, and you could see, oh, it's unusual. And they often then will cut down trees that grow up next to bells and make special implements out of it because they have that energy. People also pick this up. If you go into certain houses where unfortunate things happen, where people have been on insane asylums, where not only are people upset, but where they've been ill-treated by unskillful caregivers.

[31:51]

Even after the place is closed, you can feel what might be called ghosts. You can feel the vibration in the suffering. So our bodies are even more sensitive than walls. So yes, we are affected. And this is important. But the other side is After you move the people out of the space, it gradually goes away. There is an effect, but it goes away. So the positive effects of the retreat on your body, I don't mean to minimize them, but I think the important thing is, what is it? that had this effect on you, rather than trying to hold the effect. Try to find out what it was that made this impression upon you.

[32:57]

Because that will make an impression upon you after you leave. Now it's also true that if you're impressed by some certain kind of energy, And it's a good impression upon you. If you go out, to some extent, the impression upon you will be conveyed somewhat to other people. But also, as you say, other kinds of vibration will also start transforming you. But the thing that transformed you, if you bring that with you, or rather, if you rediscover that, that will transform you. After the retreat's over, plus that will transform your environment. But that's not an impression. That's the practice. So we came to the retreat.

[34:02]

Something about this setup transformed it. And other people have talked to me about this too. They feel somewhat transformed by this experience. And one person said they want to know how to retain the impression, retain the transformation which they appreciate when they leave. And I advise you not to try to retain it. Because when you came here, If you try to retain what you brought, that would have hindered you from being transformed. And you might say, well, I wouldn't want to have hindered the transformation which happened to me. When I go out, I would like to hinder the transformation that happened to me. But if you give transformation, then you hinder transformation when you come into a good environment.

[35:04]

And it may be that what transforms you was the not hindering transformation. That the willingness to be transformed is what transforms you. And if you leave and you're willing to be transformed by hostile, negative energy, your willingness to be transformed, I don't know if that will increase or decrease the effect these things will have on you. But you will be transformed by the willingness to be transformed. That, in some sense, is the thing which transforms you most beneficially. You come in here, and there's some kind of energy here, but I think one of the main things that happens is you You let yourself be transformed.

[36:08]

And you think because the transformation is good, that it was because the vibes were good. In some sense, the most important vibe is that at a certain point, you start letting yourself be transformed. Because when you first come in here, some part of you isn't into letting yourself be transformed. It's your normal situation. You're walking around trying to hold yourself together and not get too transformed by things unless you're sure it would be a positive transformation. But that attitude, that transforms you too. In the background of everything I'm saying is this thing about leaping and turning. So after you're here for a while, somehow what you do, I think what you do is you stop resisting transformation. It's your giving up resisting that really is important because that puts you into the realm of transformation.

[37:18]

To let yourself be transformed, you can let yourself be transformed into a wild fox, which is dangerous. But then you let yourself be transformed out of a wild fox into a dead fox and into a master. So, if you allow yourself to be transformed and then you get transformed and you're happy with the transformation, if you want to retain it, I would say, I don't agree. If you want to take care of it, this good transformation, then I would say, let it be transformed. If you want to take care of the effects of transformation, if you want to take care of transformation, then I would say, let the transformation be transformed.

[38:24]

Because that's what you did to get into this good transformation. You allowed yourself to change. You were here long enough so you said, okay, I'll let the situation transform me. And, of course, it did. But I think it was your willingness to be transformed that was key. Because all day long before you came here, you were getting transformed too. You've always been transformed, and you notice that you're transformable, maybe more than average. So then, if you notice you're more than average transformable, you might say, well, I should be more than average careful about how I let myself be transformed. In other words, I should resist more than most people because I'm so easily transformed. But that resistance is the problem. Because if you get transformed into a monster, but you are

[39:28]

Because you allowed it to happen. But also you can get transformed into a monster because you don't allow yourself to be transformed into a rabbit. So you fight the rabbit transformation and wind up to be a vampire. Now, once you're a vampire, you're still going to get transformed. And if you fight the transformation of vampire transformation, to become. Probably, you know, something relatively equally unfortunate. So I'm basically responding to the fact that I think we are affected by the environment, and when we're in good environments, we often have good vibrations make us good transformations, but if we resist the good vibrations, then the transformation gets distorted by the resistance.

[40:34]

Once again, you might think, but I should resist negative vibrations. Yeah, I see how you'd say that. But if you resist negative transformation, the negative transformation still transforms you plus resistance. It isn't the same as it would if you said I want the negative transformation, which is another form of resistance. But when the negative... Here's the dangerous part for me to say. When the negative transformation meets an open heart and no resistance, it loses its power. There have been... there could have been, there might have been, in the environment which was affecting you during this time, there could have been some negative influences. I don't know. For example, retreat members have a daughter who is ill.

[41:45]

So, in a sense, she became ill because of some, you could say, negative influences. Vibration. But I don't know if actually she became ill because of the vibration or because she resisted whatever kind of vibration it was. So then they have a daughter who's sick, so that's a painful information for them to get. That affects them. We are affected by children being sick. We are affected by our friends suffering. It affects us. It makes us into a certain kind of a person when our friends are sick, and it makes us into another kind of person when our friends are healthy. But I do not know, it is not my experience, that when you're with sick people who affect you and make you, that they make you into a worse person than when you're with healthy people. I don't know that.

[42:50]

And here's the part which I'm experimenting with in life. is if I'm with sick people and I resist, then that resistance plus their effect on me, the resistance in conjunction with what they're giving me makes me miss the process of giving. Healthy people, and I don't resist, the effect that they have on you, because healthy people affect you too. If I don't resist the effect, the vibration of healthy people, then I start to have access to the fact that they're alive. Then I enter into the giving process. Turn it around. If I don't resist the effect of sick people, and sick people can be people with cancer, people with psychosis, whatever,

[43:54]

People that are having a hard time, if I don't resist it, then I'm giving. And when I'm open to the giving, I am transformed. And I like the way I'm transformed when I'm in the giving process. I think that what happened to you and some of the other people in this retreat is that you opened to the influences that were happening to you. That somehow you thought, open to the situation here. I don't have to resist it much. And you got transformed. And you liked the transformation because it was... And you liked the environment of giving in which the... So I guess my advice to you, my encouragement to you, because I'm encouraging you means I want to give you courage. When the retreat's over, you give up all the good impressions that have been made upon you, all the good things that you've become.

[45:05]

Because all the good things, basically the good effects upon you, were because you didn't resist. And now give them up, and then you will stay in the process, plus you will be ready to be transformed as the giving process to affirmation. So that's my kind of, in some ways, outrageous and I would say perhaps astounding recommendation. For which I offer you is that if you meet evil in the form of, for example, in the apparently mild form of busyness, but, you know, busyness can get... more lethal if it turns into, like, powerful fuel so that you can go faster, for example. And then it has environmental effects, which we didn't primarily mean, but we were willing to pay the price of pollution in order to go faster.

[46:15]

So going fast, in some sense, is a thing. So you're in an environment where this kind of potential evil of going fast and using power to accomplish certain things is coming to affect you now. I propose that if you relax with that and don't fight it, or even that you oppose it, not in a relaxed and open way, if you even learn how to do that, that the evil is disarmed. Of course, if you're attached to the evil, it's not, and if you fight it, it's not. So I guess I suggest, don't try to retain, don't try to solidify, because that isn't what you did when you came here. You didn't try to solidify the way you were when you came. And that was your spiritual practice, is that you didn't try to solidify all the... ...here.

[47:21]

You brought some good here, but you weren't primarily trying to hold on to the good. Maybe a little bit, but then you less and less were you doing that. And it was your opening to the world that's making you, I think, that has given you what you have. Now, when you leave, give whatever you are away again and again. and also receive whatever is given to you that makes you again and again, and the practice will thrive, and you will be transformed, and you could be transformed into some ways that are really surprising, but again, if you see them as part of the giving process, part of you will be very happy. Again, if you're with people you care about and they're suffering, you will be transformed into a person who feels pain. However, and when you're with people that you care about and they're suffering, and you're soft and open to them, you don't care about them, but you're not defending against them, you will be transformed into a suffering person.

[48:42]

However, you will be extremely happy at the same time. This is the most, what do you call it, the most marvelous thing, is that we can be happy when suffering beings who we love turn us into a person who feels pain. Because we don't feel pain because of us not getting what we want. We feel pain because we love them. And we feel happy And that happiness can grow and grow. So that we can be... So I think this applies to all of us as we leave retreat. All of us who have had a good retreat. Those of us who have had a terrible retreat, it applies to them too. If you had a terrible retreat,

[49:44]

Give that away. Let go of that. Don't resist that. And you will find a great happiness of giving. So this gives a huge response. Yes. Yes. I have a lot of resistance. This setting being this discussion setting? You mean you're afraid to say something because people might jump in and resolve your problems? So you could tell us beforehand, may I say something, introduce myself?

[50:46]

My name's Amy, and I'd like to say something without anybody trying to resolve it. So please, I request you don't resolve my problems. But I have a question, which is? Do you have any other questions besides that we don't resolve your problems? Do you have another request? Right. But isn't there something else you'd like besides us leaving accepting you as you are without trying to resolve you? Is there something else you'd like us to do? Actually, I said it already. Sorry. Accepting as I am without trying to resolve you? Huh? Is that what you'd like? Huh? You'd like us to accept you as you are? To speak? So ask us to do that. One, two.

[51:47]

Yeah, right. But yeah, and it helps, like, I was married 15 years before I realized it. My wife told me her suffering. She just wanted me to listen to it. She just wanted me to say, oh, you're suffering in such and such a way. For quite a long time, I would try to resolve or heal her problem, and like that. But finally I realized she just wanted me to say, oh, I hear you. Like, there's a big storm today. She'd like to give me a weather report, you know? Oh, it's a big storm today. Rather than, well, let's move to some other neighborhood or whatever. She didn't want to do that. So I feel like you're asking the same thing. You'd like us to listen to you. And I think that's really good.

[52:55]

And I think that will help you realize who you are. People will listen to you. It kind of distracts you from what you're working on to find out who and what you're experiencing. Right, right, [...] right. Does that make sense to everybody? Yeah. Yeah, right. Is what part of the conversation? To find out?

[53:56]

I haven't seen too much of it, but I know that it does happen sometimes, and I think Amy's seen some of it. Yeah. Is what okay? I would say that we probably, it would be good to agree that we are doing that before we start doing it. Like I would, you know, for example, I usually would get agreement with a person before you put your finger in their nostril. You know, say, I'd like, I think it might be good if I put my finger in your nostril. What do you think? And they say, yeah, I think it really would be great. So right ahead, you know. But generally speaking, any kind of thing we do with each other, I think it's good beforehand.

[55:01]

And I think we started these discussions without a lot of agreements. And the more we discuss, the more agreements we would need. Because the more we discuss, we'd either run into more trouble, or, put another way, the more intimate we get, and the more intimate we get, the more we have to have agreements. Because, like I said, as you start to put your finger in somebody's nostril, you have to ask them. Usually. But as you get more intimate with somebody, you start noticing that they have something in their nose, you know, and you think, geez, your nose is clogged like it cleaned. Would you? And sometimes they say, well, actually, no thanks. But sometimes people do want their noses clean, and sometimes people do want their ear cleans especially. It's hard to clean your own ear sometimes, so you get a professional ear cleaner to do that for you. But... But if you go see a doctor who cleans ears, even they nowadays say, may I help you?

[56:10]

And you say, yes, I'd like you to clean my ear. Or would you like your ear clean? Yes. So I think that the more time we spend together, the more we realize that we have to ask each other questions about what we're up for. And so, you know, as now here on the second to the last day, we're realizing that. And if we were in a longer retreat, we probably at the same time would realize we need to make some agreements now about how to proceed. We actually have made some before, but we're coming to new ones. Okay? Yes? is that, I don't know if I'm on the blog, but

[57:19]

Well, I would suggest one way it might look would be that somebody says, I think it's hot in the room. And somebody else might say, do you want anything more than me telling you that I heard you say you think it's hot? Or I hear you say it's hot. Did you want me to do anything more than that? And the person might say, no. A lot of other people, somebody else might say, do you want me to turn the air conditioning off? Before you say, I understand. That would be... I think that... Are you ready for some extremely intense feedback? I don't think Amy was talking about a particular example. I think she was just saying that she has this concern.

[58:26]

And she didn't want you to figure that out, but you just tried to figure it out. No, I don't think so. I don't think that's so. Yeah, we had a conversation, but we aren't trying to figure this out. You're moving towards figuring this out. That's what I say to you. She was saying that she has this concern, but we did not decide that we're now going to make a rule about this. I feel that I don't understand. You don't understand her concern? Do you want to ask her again what her concern is? Ask her. I thought she said it, and I thought I understood it, but you can try to find out what it is.

[59:31]

She didn't say anything happened. She just learned in groups like this that if she expresses herself, some conflict, she's afraid that people will try to resolve it for her. And she doesn't want to do that. She's not saying that anything happened. I don't know. I didn't say Amy saw it. She said in groups like this, she sees this happen. She didn't say she saw it here. I said I saw it, but I didn't say, you know, decide. Yeah, I understand.

[60:47]

Now, here's an example of doing what I thought Amy was saying, is I understand that you're mystified, and I'm not going to try to help you resolve that, unless you ask me to. And if you ask me, do you people want to watch this happen, this resolution of this mystery? And I, you know... Maybe you do. And then I can say to Catherine, do you want them to watch us do this? And you might say, no, thanks. You know, whatever. You might not want to be the guinea pig. But it's also quite like it anyway. What? Yeah. Well, two things, if I could. Number one, this is a reverse order. Number two is that when that woman said, Suzuki Reshi said, everything is mine, I just want to say again that I wish I had said to her,

[61:56]

I think what he meant is also that mind is everything and not the slightest bit more. I said that to you before, but I want to say it again. That mind is not like there's everything plus mind. Because to say that is similar to say that there's a universe plus somebody. And I think that everything is mind. The way to understand that is mind is everything. If you want to find mind, then look at everything. And then don't have anything added to that to be mind. So when you have like a living being interacting with the universe, got the whole universe and a person interacting with it,

[62:59]

action, that impression, is mind. So mind is not only the person and the universe, but it's interaction between the person and the universe, or it's interaction between the person and the interactive universe. That's mind. So that's what we mean by when we say everything is mind. Other way you think it is that you have mind, and that's preeminent. And everything is of that. I didn't follow that. Well, that would be nice. Everything is practice realization. Okay?

[64:02]

Practice realization is everything. So I just wanted, that's the, but that goes back to what PK was saying, that it's really phenomenology. Phenomenology. That's the way to not make Buddhism epistemological. And actually, not even to make it epistemological, but we have to have an epistemological. Yeah? Is there a phenomenon that's not perceived?

[65:12]

No. Phenomena? If all this does not appear within perception, then what would be the assertion? I think I know the answer. Okay, what's the answer? She said, if all this phenomena do not appear within perception, then how can it be phenomena? Phenomena. But they're not phenomena. No, no, I think it says they don't appear within perception. And I say the reason why they don't appear within perception is because they are perception. That's why they don't appear within perception. In a phenomenological way, they are perception. All these things, the way they're interacting with each other, that's perception. Their interaction is perception. But that interaction doesn't appear within perception.

[66:15]

The interaction is perception. In other words, perception is an interaction. It's not something that sees something outside of itself. That's why the actual dynamism of existence doesn't appear within perception. And then people say that you can have a direct perception of that. The perception of it would be it. Pardon? Yes. It is the constitution of the experience. You can't experience. That's the way experience actually is. But you need an epistemology to point out that we tend to want to grasp this process So then we tend to create a kind of consciousness which imagines it outside of what it is, outside of itself.

[67:24]

So then it even dreams that it can perceive something outside of itself while it is itself. So this magical trick of duality does appear. So there is the production of that, namely duality. Not an ontological way, right? Not an ontological way. And you need epistemology to help us understand the way we misunderstand it. Because epistemology explains the basis upon which we have these dualistic understandings of a non-dual process. is how do you know that you know something? It's not so much how you know, but how do you know?

[68:26]

How do you know? By what means do you know? But it seems to be that it's more of a... That's included. That's included. So epistemology both explains how knowledge comes, and it also tells you the different types. And it tells you which ones are valid and which ones are invalid. But we sort of need to know which one of our types of knowledge are invalid. We need to know that. And I think we need to know the possibility of a valid type of cognition, valid type of knowledge. Not knowing.

[69:30]

Did you say a non-knowing mind or do you mean a non-knowing cognition? Did you say? I guess it's from teaching emptiness, the non-knowing mind, that the moment you think you know something, you have something to take away or justify. So, in epistemology, there can be rules that you can love with, you know, rather than trouble you. I'm not a philosopher, but it seems to me that... Are you a philosopher? Easily. The basis for that... The basis for that, in our way, the same as the basis, the opposite of the basis, really,

[70:42]

Pardon? You lost me there. When things occur outside perception, they're not phenomena. Is that what you said? But no phenomena are by definition things that are perceived. Yes. No, but no perception means no perception in the context of perceiving emptiness. So emptiness can be perceived. And when you're perceiving emptiness, then you don't see forms or feelings. But you are perceiving a phenomena called, you can perceive a phenomena called emptiness. In other words, you can perceive emptiness that something doesn't have an inherent existence. But when you see, if you look at me, for example, and you see that there's no inherent existence to me, at that time, then you don't see me.

[71:46]

What you're seeing is my emptiness at that time. You're looking at Reb, but you're seeing his emptiness. And when you see my emptiness, you don't see me, because you're looking at the special quality of me, namely my emptiness. You don't have an any essence or any identity more than the word reb. You can actually perceive that. And you can explain that, and we need to know that that's a possible perception. And we need to know other perceptions where you see that I do have a self. And you believe it. And that's another epistemological teaching, is how it can be that you would see me and think I have a self and believe that. So that's epistemology too, is to teach that that's the way people usually see. We need to know that because of our suffering. But we also need to know it's possible to look at the same person and see their emptiness and know that at that time how that would be.

[72:50]

And we need to know then how to get there. And the way we get there is by studying karma. So the process by which our epistemology evolves from a wrong source of knowledge, namely by which we see and believe in a self, to a correct source of knowledge where we see a lack of self while we're looking at phenomena. So we're actually perceiving phenomena and we're perceiving the emptiness of them And we can also perceive the phenomena, also perceive a phenomena and its emptiness. Once you perceive its emptiness and we look back at it, we do no longer fall for the appearance of it being separate from us, having a self. So we do need epistemology, but the course, but the movement and evolution of, positive evolution of epistemology is

[73:50]

through more of a phenomenological approach, wherein we study karma. And as we study karma and understand it better and better, our epistemological condition evolves more and more positively until we can see very clearly and correctly. And all these minds which Zen's talking about, We can have these cognitions of whatever you call it, non-thinking, so on. You can actually cognize that. But again, the cognition is nothing in addition to the universe interacting with itself. But false cognition, which imagines that cognition is something in addition to the universe, which sets the stage to think that people are in addition to the universe, or I'm in addition to you. It comes from the basic idea that when you know something, somebody knows, rather than knowing.

[75:01]

And knowing is basically the way living beings interact. The way we interact with the universe is called knowing. Our basic relationship with everything is knowing. But we tend to think we know our relationship with things. are we relating? But it isn't that we know the things we're relating, it's that in relating we know. And that's difficult to understand because you can't grasp it. And that's why it doesn't appear within perception. The way we relate, actually, in this perfect harmonious way, doesn't appear within perception. It is the perception which is our harmony. We tend to say it's the perception of harmony, but then you think that the harmony would appear within perception. Relationship is perception.

[76:04]

It is the self-fulfilling awareness. It's the self-healing, the self-holding awareness. And how we're all working together in a way that doesn't appear within perception. And I wrote this this way, that there was a situation of self-fulfillment and then there's an awareness of that. So that's in some sense wrong that I said it that way. Really the self-fulfilling and self-receiving and self-employing way we are is perception. So in a way, adding awareness to that and also calling it samadhi, which means that it's an awareness which is one-pointed. And one-pointed means that subject, called the harmony, excuse me, the cognition, the subject, and the harmony. So it's a one-pointed awareness of our harmony. Yes?

[77:14]

Sure, yeah. Excuse me one second. Do you want to go take a bath now? Okay. So would you start over again? Karma? If the question sounds like my understanding of it, low level that I need to study more. I could just say go study more. I mean, I'm perfectly okay with them. I have a lot of patience. I know things are coming back to me. But anyway. I'm not... Don't do any more of that. We've heard enough of that. Don't do any more of that. Just ask the question. No more excuses. Yes. I can understand how Donna has twisted karma.

[78:22]

I can understand how I have ancient twisted karma. I can understand how there is ancient twisted karma, but I can't understand how there is my twisted karma. I see. Well, in a way, the fact of thinking of my anything, is set up by past conditioning. Not only by past conditioning, it's also set up by the society and so on. But one of the key things about determining the sense of mind is past conditioning. So just the idea of that I'm doing something, that I'm

[79:28]

holding myself in some attached form, and I'm acting from that place, the fact that I have that idea is due to... That's one basic thing. It isn't to say that there is something there to grasp, but the idea that there's something there to grasp is due to past ideas that there was something there to grasp. So now that I my action, I recognize that my thinking of the world that way, in terms of mine and me, is due to the past thought, past thoughts of mine and me. It doesn't say that I'm a permanent person or even a separate person. It's thinking that I'm separate didn't happen just now for the first time. I've been doing this for a long time. Or rather, there has been this way of thinking for a long time.

[80:31]

There's been thinking of being a separate person who acts upon the world. That's been going on for a long time. I admit it. Now, wait a minute. I admitted that, but I don't really understand that very well. But I understand it a little. It makes some sense to me that my thinking of me by myself has antecedents. heard that it goes way, way back. So yesterday I could have said, yesterday I was thinking pretty much this way. There was this kind of thinking going on with me, with this person. And today there is. And I think it was for a long time. So that's sort of what I'm confessing in one sense is this ancient habit of self-clinging and acting from an attached, point of attachment in the universe.

[81:37]

And that I have been acting that way. I might not do it anymore, but since I've been doing it so long, I might. You're not saying what you're going to do in the future. You're just saying, right now you admit that you've probably been doing this for a long time. So I'll stop there. I'll define long time as beginningless. Because then the next thing you say is the way you do this is through beginningless greed. And the way you do it is you're doing it now through speech and thought right now. You've been doing this through body, speech, and mind and from beginningless greed, hate, and delusions. That's how it's been happening. It's beginningless. Setting a beginning is another conceptual... If you go out... Just go down through a microscope and look into your body and see if you can find a beginning somewhere.

[82:46]

Go out into space and see if you can find an end somewhere. Beginnings and ends are mental constructs. which we again attach to. So if you say beginningless, well, how can that be? Well, we're talking about although I've been thinking in terms of beginnings and ends, my thinking in terms of beginnings and ends doesn't have a beginning. However, there's a possibility that it could have an end. This is difficult to understand how it could ever end. There could be an end to thinking in terms of beginnings and ends, or liberation at least. from the karmic world, which has beginnings and ends. That's part of what we're struggling with here, is how do we work with the karma which creates a world of, which puts us in this trap of beginning and end, which is also birth and death. And we think in terms of birth and death is part of our problem. And also that's another beginningless cycle. But we're caught in this cyclic situation, which we don't necessarily see as cyclic, but we experience the effects of birth and death.

[83:58]

And we think in terms of a continuous, independent person, dash permanent. We think in those terms. We do, and we admit that we've been thinking in those terms. But the thinking in those terms can be a condition for continuing to think in those terms, which can be a condition those terms without there actually being this thing that's falsely imagined. So a person can keep imagining something that isn't so over and over. And one of the things they can imagine is that this person is the same person that he used to be. I do it now, and I think I did it yesterday. Because I looked in my journal, and it seems like somebody wrote this down yesterday, and it looks like my handwriting, I seem to be thinking that way. There seems to be no particular beginning to this. And I confess that day after day, and then after that, in the present, you say, I take refuge in Buddha.

[85:06]

In other words, I go back to Buddha. I go back to what? I go back to the possibility of freedom from this cognitive prison which my mind has created by thinking in terms of karma, by thinking in terms of, I do this by myself. I act by myself. I'm independent of a lot of other people, if not everybody. I'm independent of the universe. I'm in addition to the universe. I know things. rather than which includes me. So I confess these patterns, I draw my attention to these patterns, I study these patterns, I confess these patterns, I take refuge in Buddha, and then I make vows, like, I'm going to study until I understand. I'm going to study all the teachings. I'm going to save all the beings. I'm going to become free of all the afflictions.

[86:08]

I'm going to attain the Buddha way. You say, I am going to. But of course, it also includes getting over the idea that I'm going to do it by myself. But I admit, in terms of doing it by myself for quite a long time, I admit that. I admit it on a daily basis. And when I admit it, I'm more or less aware that I'm saying that. Some practitioners say that, but they don't really like, what did I just say? Maybe they don't deeply take that in, what they just said. But sometimes they do. And sometimes they spend a good share of the rest of the day thinking about what they just said. Which is, I highly recommend it. To notice that this is the way, this is the way we think.

[87:08]

And noticing that you think this way is to notice your karma. is to notice that I do think gain and loss. I do think of myself in isolation of others. I do take sides. And I'm more familiar and find that more lively than not taking sides. How can I live that way? Any more questions at this time? Sharing karma? Well, the thing about karma is that we're all connected, but karma particularly refers

[88:18]

There is... The basic definition of karma is cognitive, described as the intention of your current cognition, of your current consciousness. That's the definition of karma. And so that your intention and my intention right now are potentially quite different, but even if they're similar, they're not the same. Your karma right now is not the same as my karma. However, we're actually in relationship to each other, so our karmas are in relationship. And our karmas do influence each other, because My karma influences my experiences, your karma influences your experience, but my karma also influences your experiences, yours influences mine, but yours is not the same as mine.

[89:33]

So, for example, the physical world is the result of the karma of everyone. But your feelings, right now, are more especially due to your own past thoughts rather than mine. So you can have pain right now, and I can have pain, and vice versa. But we live in the same room. The room we all made together. And not only do we make this together, but this is a result not just of all beings from beginningless time have made this room and made this planet. So you could say the planet, the environmental crisis, group karma, or huge group karma. The individual feelings we're experiencing are, you know, we influence the feelings we have, but particularly right now, you don't have the same feeling as I do.

[90:37]

So the way your karma is maturing, everything else, including me, is different than the way mine is, because we don't have the same karma. There's a difference, and yet we're also cooperating. So by studying this, there's a possibility to not only change your attitude about how you relate to everyone by changing the way you engage with the world, but also you change the way the world engages with you. So it's both changing my attitude towards the world and therefore the way I relate to you, but it also changes the way I engage with you and the way you engage with me. That's the self-fulfilling samadhi. It's when we enter that space and we start to realize how everybody's supporting us and how we're supporting everybody.

[91:41]

But karma is part of what hinders us from re-envisioning how we relate to people and re-envisioning how they relate to us. Seeing how everybody in some sense differently but is embracing us and how we are embracing everyone. And as we understand that more and more deeply we more and more realize the harmonious and peaceful way that we're embracing everyone and the harmonious and peaceful way everyone's embracing us. This would entail that we become more concentrated and attentive and intimate with the process. And then our vision changes, but it isn't just that our vision changes, we act differently. And it isn't just that we act differently, but then everybody else acts differently back at us. Which means that they get included in the transformation.

[92:44]

Which is exactly what the self-fulfilling samadhi is saying. It isn't just one-directional. However, there can still be differences in levels of realization of this change in mutual embracement. And karma is the story about how we don't get it, how we don't see how we're working together. Karma is what explains how we blind ourselves to our mutual harmony, our mutual support. But again, by studying the process, it isn't just that I change my attitude towards you and change my attitude simultaneously. you change yours towards me. Because part of what I'm getting over is my sense of isolation.

[93:50]

So as my view of isolation gets transformed, my behavior is more resonant with not feeling isolated. So you have the understanding of not being isolated, even if your view hasn't changed that much. Your attitude might not change, but you actually are participating in that harmony, which makes it possible for you then to hear teachings which will transform your view. And when your view gets transformed, you act and then transform the way you are enacted with. So in that sense, if you... I recently was thinking about how Buddhism in a lot of ways is like Stoicism. If you read Stoic teachings, they sound a lot like Buddhism. But the main different teachings are about a different way of looking at things, which seems pretty good. A different attitude to the world that makes things more peaceful and calm and kind of happy no matter what happens.

[94:57]

But the problem is that it's just a change of attitude. It doesn't talk about a change of relationship. It doesn't talk about ecology. And it also doesn't talk about the world changing back. Whereas the Buddhist teaching sounds like stoicism, except that it isn't just mental. And also that cognition isn't just mental. Because like I said before, cognition is the way your body is interacting with the environment. That's basically what cognition is. And when your cognition changes, He interacts with the world changes. Just like some people suddenly stop eating meat. Or stop, you know, throwing waste products on the ground. Because they're cognizant.

[96:00]

And suddenly they see the grounds relating to them differently too. That would teach you to ask about group karma. Oh, sure. I might be dead soon. Go ahead, say it. You're welcome. And thank you for letting us come. We appreciate it. I've been able to come without you. It's been a very different experience than the retreats that you can go to. It's a very wonderful, wonderful experience. I'm very glad I can. I'm going to go help in the kitchen. All right.

[97:04]

Thanks for working in the kitchen. So thanks all of you for allowing me to come to this retreat. And I wouldn't be surprised if some other people felt that way too, that you feel grateful to the other people for allowing you to be here. I'm sorry about jumping out of the room and laughing. I actually... No, no, that was fine. Don't worry about it. Even the people who didn't laugh, it's okay. Who didn't laugh? I didn't laugh. I didn't laugh, but I excused myself. I couldn't hear. Okay, well, should we take a little break now and go to Zazen? As soon as you'd like. Would you let the people in? Would you allow the people to enter? So you can enter whenever you want to, but don't keep him waiting too long.

[98:07]

Okay? So how soon do you want to be over there? Open the door for people. So starting from five minutes, maybe starting in five minutes and then maybe. Okay, so don't keep them waiting too long, okay? Thank you.

[98:26]

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