and I mentioned this before, is explaining how karma works and or describe, which is similar to describing the kinds of ways that and things you might see in the realm of karma. And the other way, the other kind of thing which I'm thinking of doing or talking with your body is describing how to study karma. How to study it is hard to separate from explaining what it looks like. You sort of need to know where to... I feel I'm trying to balance between getting into telling you what it looks like and telling you how you can study so you'll see that it looks that way. The explanation or the description of it and how to study it are kind of back and forth.

[01:06]

I don't want to do too much explanation. If I don't do any, you won't necessarily know what to study. That's part of my kind of a dilemma. Does that make sense? Because of this, I'd like to ask you, how has your study of karma been going? And do you have any questions about how to sort of stand or position yourself in the study of karma? How's it going? Do you have any questions? Yes. Yes, you do. Yes. So part of what you're noticing is that you're noticing yourself concerned for yourself to get profit.

[02:14]

Okay. Well, so far, just to notice an impulse or an interest or profit, that's not exactly studying karma. But it's studying, it's part of what's involved in studying karma. What you've mentioned so far is not yet karma, it is just greed. Okay? And so you're noticing some greed for gain. And that greed for gain is something that there's an awareness of. And so awareness cannot be aware of awareness. But awareness can be aware of, is aware of, or what accompanies awareness.

[03:24]

So awareness has objects. And so awareness can be aware of, for example, greed. Because greed accompanies awareness, sometimes. So we have an example here where you're of awareness of some greed for gain, maybe even gain in the process of studying karma. And there is actually some benefit in the study of karma. It's greatly beneficial. I'm saying that anyway. Because if you study karma, you will actually see the truth So there is a gain. There is merit that comes to one who studies karma. And also, in the process of studying karma, you may notice that you are not getting merit. But you also could study karma and not notice that there is a gain, that there is a greed or interest in getting merit.

[04:29]

There might not be. So you might say, oh, I look and I don't see at this moment anyway, there doesn't seem to be a big interest in acquiring merit. There could be such a moment. Or you might say, well, there's no greed here for merit at this moment, but there is actually an anger or a jealousy of somebody else who I see has just got some merit. That observation is and awareness of something that's going on in your mind. But what else is going on? Are you going to, like, do something to facilitate? Are you going to coordinate various other aspects of your consciousness to line up with that greed for gain? If so, if the whole consciousness starts to get aligned with that, then you can say, well, the pattern of my consciousness, which is, in fact, my thinking, my thinking is oriented around this greed.

[05:38]

My thinking is in support of this greed. So this is a moment where the impulse or the karma, the mental karma of the moment is a karma of greed or is greedy karma. And is that... It's also greedy for merit. Now, is that a wholesome state of consciousness? Well, actually, it's not terribly unwholesome because although there's greed there, it's greed for merit. And merit might be helpful. So, although this state of mind is tainted by the greed... for gain for perhaps this imagined person here, since it's greed for merit, it might be relatively good. For example, you might say, well, what merit?

[06:41]

Well, I could like do a kindness to several people here today, and that would bring me merit. And it would, even though you wanted to get it for yourself. the merit for yourself by others. Does this make sense to you? So this is, you know, and this is part of the actually, this brings up a distasteful aspect because the awareness that I just described although you're in the process of concocting a wholesome action, a meritorious action, you also notice that it's tainted by selfishness. So it is possible to be doing good karma, to do wholesome karma, but have it be tainted by selfishness.

[07:48]

And I say it's possible, but actually it is very, very common that people do good karma, but the good karma is selfishness, which means it's also, which is the same thing as saying it's tainted by the belief in an independently existing self. But it still is wholesome karma. Okay? So, you've told us about that you've noticed a motive or an interest or a desire for gain. And that's, so far, that's not karma. But if you really work then and decide to do something in order to facilitate that meritorious, that gain in merit, you want to do things which will be meritorious. That's actually wholesome karma for a selfish motive. But it's still wholesome. Now, how about if it was wholesome unselfishly?

[08:51]

Well, it would even be more wholesome and more meritorious. It's just that the merit wouldn't be coming back to the person because if it's unselfish, there's no person involved. So the merit just gets accumulated And what happens to the merit then? Huh? Yeah, it's good of all living beings. It just goes all over the place. It's splashing all over the universe. And it's like you're not worried. Well, hey, did I get any of that? Because you don't offer that anymore. Because you're practicing meritorious. You're going around, you know. And then these good acts are arising and happening, and everybody's happy, and you don't get it.

[09:55]

But you also don't not get it, because you're not really there. So one of the real booby traps of this whole thing is that if there really was a self, there couldn't be any karma. And yet, usually, in the study of karma, you'll notice that there's a very strong sense that a self is doing the karma. So activity can happen, meritorious and unmeritorious action can happen, but really the reason why it can happen is because there isn't really a self. If there was a self, nothing could happen. That's a booby trap which we can, you know, deal with more and more as time goes on. But I thought, I wasn't actually playing, I'm telling you, I was going to tell you just before you were leaving. But here, I thought early.

[11:01]

Yes? Yes? Yeah? Patty? Yesterday we were practicing, noticing skillful and unskillful, And we were getting ready to go to the spas in Arrows. And we were going out the door, and I was lamenting that I was filming for Sophia, that I hadn't noticed any skillful intentions. And then she reminded me of how I was playing around, and how I told her about putting a pillowcase under her hat to keep the butts away. And she said that she thought that was skillful. And I didn't notice doing that. But yet, we were having a lot of fun doing it. And then the same thing happened with her. She was lamenting. She hadn't done anything skillful. She had had only unskillful intentions. But again, we've been playing. She thinks for me, like, cover up my back because I'm getting sunburned.

[12:04]

So I was wondering about that. Do you sort of not notice? When you're doing a skillful thing, but you're just cutting the time out? I think you can notice when you do skillful things, but they're slightly more skillful if you don't notice, if you don't think that was skillful. You can notice when you do skillful things. And usually, not usually, but often, noticing what is a key ingredient. Being mindful is a key ingredient in wholesome activity. Being concerned that you can do things well or sloppily and wanting to do them well and putting your attention to the activity so that you're really present with it is a common, if not necessary, element in doing things skillfully.

[13:09]

Certainly in doing things very skillfully, you have to be mindful. But to notice and think, oh, that was skillful, could be there or not. And if it's not, it's slightly more skillful, or somewhat more skillful. Because you accomplish the thing without any self-consciousness of, you know, that was skillful. So it's a little bit better to not be aware when you do skillful things that they're skillful. But they wouldn't be aware of what's going on. But you don't have to have the additional thing of, oh, that was skillful. It can be more like, you know, it might be just kind of like, wow, that pillowcase protected the flies and me simultaneously. Wonderful. And also protected me from sunburn. You might notice that.

[14:11]

And then you might say, that was skillful. But you might not. But your daughter might point it out to you if you're lamenting, which might not be that skillful. It's the reverse, though, for unwholesome things. Unwholesome things you don't have to be attentive to. to do them. Okay? You can do unwholesome things without attention. Flies, kill them without paying attention. You have to pay somewhat, a little bit of attention to actually successfully swat them. But you don't have to notice that you're killing. You don't have to notice that there's problems in it. As a matter of fact, you can miss, too, with the intention of killing, and it's just pretty much almost as bad as being successful. A little bit different, but... But it's slightly worse when you do an unwholesome thing if you don't notice that it's unwholesome than if you would notice that it's unwholesome.

[15:15]

So if you do an unwholesome thing and you notice it, that's slightly better than not even noticing it. So if you do something sloppily and don't even notice that you did it sloppily, it's more unwholesome than if you do it sloppily and notice that it was sloppy, saying, gee, that was... That's kind of sloppy. That's a little bit better than just being sloppy. Whereas to do something very impeccably and let it be that is slightly better than to do it impeccably and say, wow, jeez, that was impeccable. But, you know, either one, both of them are impeccable, just that one is like really cool. And it looks slightly more fun, too, and slightly more lovely and slightly more awesome. But, you know, they're right up there. Best and second best. Totally aware and mindful and careful.

[16:16]

And just add on the other one, slightly lower than that, of saying, geez, that was really good. Now, to notice somebody else did it, Well, since they did it, all there is is to notice that they did a skillful thing. And that's skillful, too, is to notice other people's skillfulness is skillful. In that case, in fact, all we're talking about is the fact that you noticed that they did something skillful, so it's not adding something to it. Now, to turn around and say, boy, that was skillful of me to notice that, then that would be the same. And it is skillful and wholesome to notice other people's skillfulness and wholesomeness. But it's slightly different from good karma. good karma would be this is not good karma to go to the thought wow she's so skillful that's not good karma that's more like maybe you could say something which might arise on good karma that's more like a state of mind that arises like wow so skillful you see that

[17:29]

But then if you say, I think I'll tell her how skillful she is. I would like to tell her. I think it would be good to tell her how skillful she is. And I want to tell her. And I'm going to tell her. And I'm going to say it in English. I'm going to say it in English. You are so skillful. And I'm going to say that because I really appreciate her and I want to show her my appreciation. And I think it would be good. So that's a moment of... skillful or wholesome mental karma. Is that clear? Make sense to everybody? Anybody have a question about that? See the difference between, wow, he's so skillful and I think I'd like to tell him he's skillful. See the difference? Or I'm going to write him a letter. I want to write him a letter. And then also writing the letter or saying it, the intention is then ramified into speech or into, you know, writing or You see the difference between karma and a state of mind?

[18:31]

The karma is the inclination of the state of mind. Now, there could be the state of mind where you think, oh, he's so skillful. And there is karma in that state of mind too, but if you just think, oh, he's so skillful, but you don't feel some impulse to do or not do anything, then the karmic situation is what we call indeterminate. It's a positive state of mind, but it's karmically rather neutral. So when you see someone and appreciate them and you don't tell them that you appreciate them or don't think of telling them or sharing that, it's sort of a neutral karmic situation. It's certainly not negative by what I've said so far, but it's not really positive unless you kind of of wanting to share that with them or give that to them. But if you think, geez, they're really great and I would like to give them my appreciation, that thought turns it into positive karma.

[19:35]

That focusing of it and shaping the positive sentiment or that positive sense makes it clearly, the consciousness develops a direction. Is that clear? So you can see, this is kind of like a pretty good situation, but not going anywhere, so karmically neutral. Negative impression, like this person is really unskillful, and they're really lazy, and they're really, you know, they're really wasting their time. They're a precious living being, and they're just being totally, you know, slothful and terrible. You could have that thought. But not particularly want to say anything to them about it because, you know, you think, well, it probably might, I don't know, it might not help them to say that. So, you know, it seems like kind of somebody, but you don't particularly feel anything good to do about it.

[20:45]

So it's kind of a neutral state. And also, you think that maybe if you did say something about it, it might turn bad, so you stay away from that. So it's kind of neutral. But that same negative view of the... to positive or negative karma. Like you could think, I think I'll go tell them what a jerk they are, what a slob they are. I think I'll go tell them. They need to know that. Somebody's got to tell them. And maybe overlooking the fact, because when you do unwholesome things, you can overlook the fact that it might devastate them. So you could have this plan in your mind that you're going to go tell this person about what a careless, wasteful, stupid idiot they are. With maybe the idea, oh, that thing, that would help them. But not overlooking the fact that it wouldn't help them. And that before you see it, you've already got a negative, karmic, an unskillful, an unskillful thought. The other could be, this person's wasting her time.

[21:51]

She's such a great person, but she's being such a slob. I've got an idea of something that would really be helpful. I'm going to actually go over there, and I'm going to find something good about this stupid thing she just did. And I'm going to talk to her about that, and I think that will wake her up to how sloppy she was. So then you think that thought, and that's a pretty skillful thought. So it's a negative thing, but you really want to use it to help the person and uplift them. in the face of something, a big mistake they just made. So then the same observation is shaped towards benefit. See how that can work? Yeah. I was in a very similar situation to what you were just describing yesterday afternoon. And I attempted to turn what I thought was a bad situation into a good one, and the person didn't get it and just continued to act bad.

[22:59]

How do I do that? Well, these kinds of observations are not to manipulate people. No, I was trying to... No, but you missed the fact that you were trying to manipulate the person into being different. You want to benefit the person, but sometimes the way you benefit them doesn't convert them. It isn't so beneficial that you convert them in the moment. I was trying to diffuse a negative situation and I thought that I needed to, or I was trying to do that by myself. Okay. And I attempted to point out something positive to the person about herself. Yes. And it went amok. For amok. And then I would stop. May I interject an etymological wonder?

[24:06]

Do you know what the word amok comes from? It means, what do they call it? I think in Indonesia, people would go amok, they would say. And that means they would run to the village and slaughter everybody. run amok means you just go wild and just like run through like a warrior just runs through and just slaughters everybody and you didn't mean it quite that way did you but it's interesting you meant more like muck up or confuse right but it's interesting that you used amok because you were trying to help but actually you weren't so successful But that's part of learning skillfulness, is that you have an idea of being helpful.

[25:06]

You conceive of a way that you would like to implement that. You see something that would be helpful. You want to actually devote your energy and your attention to facilitating that helpfulness. And then you think that thought, and maybe speak or physically act, and you learn more complicated than you thought. And the next time you say, well, last time I did that, I overlooked these points and it didn't work out very well. So this time, as I try to do this skillful thing, I'll take into consideration. So in this particular case, you want to tell us a little more details and maybe we can find out a way to do it more skillfully? Do you want to go into some more detail with it? Um... about herself? She was bragging about being an advanced Buddhist thinker.

[26:07]

Okay. That was my interpretation. That was your interpretation, yes. And it was pushing my buttons. Yes. It wanted to make me behave similarly. Oh, you wanted to brag, too. I wanted to retaliate and show her that I knew more than she did. Okay, so it pushed your... Oh, your perception of her bragging pushed your bragging button. Okay, so then what happened? I pushed my one-off button. You wanted to out-brag her. Out-brag her. And in your case, it would be you wanted to say the truth. And I wanted to put her down. You wanted to put her down by putting yourself up, okay. Good, now we're talking. And then I thought, no, this is old stuff.

[27:12]

Yes, ancient. Now I'm going to pay attention to... So I... We were talking about hospice. And so then I thought that I wouldn't one-upper. You wouldn't. Yeah. So I pulled back from that brink and tried to engage in a less confrontational discussion. about... The conversation was about a washing body after someone had died. A washing body after someone had died. So... You mean, she was telling you what a good wash job she did? Pretty much. Not only did I get it clean, but it was a spiritual cleaning job.

[28:19]

So... So I then thought that I was just going to talk about not how good one did it, but what kind of a came out of that experience. And she then talk again about how she did it and then I could comprehend right this is a wonderful example because you know she told you what a great job she did then you had this reaction and dropped it which seems appropriate but then because you dropped that whole thing about you know one-upsmanship message from you that you understood what she had done how well she had done

[29:24]

If you tried to one-up her, she still wouldn't have thought you really got the picture because you couldn't possibly one-up her. Because she was at the top of the line, right? But see, I thought that the switch that I made acknowledged how well she had done it. It's just that, yes, and in that... Oh, you did a great job. And how did it feel to be so great? Well, I didn't say that specifically. I said, in that kind of a sense... Oh, see, that's what you missed. You missed saying, wow. Yeah. That was so skillful of you. That was so great of you. But even that would have been maybe not to the point as much as saying, guess what just happened to me? When you were talking about washing the body, I had this fantasy that you thought you did this fantastically great thing. I had this fantasy that you were telling me how well you did. You were sort of emphasizing how well you did that.

[30:27]

I had this kind of idea like that. And then I thought, well, wait a minute. I'm going to tell her something I did even better than that. That's what I was thinking when you were talking like that. You might have told her that. It all seems so... I mean, that seems deceitful. What seems deceitful? To... To what? To manipulate her that way. What way? The way I just said? Well, see, that's funny because to me the way you were doing it was manipulative because you were not telling her what was really going on and you were trying to be a nice guy. But actually, you weren't feeling like it. But telling her what's going on or telling her my perception of what's going on... That's what was going on, though. What was going on was your perception.

[31:27]

You see, that's what I... You weren't... To tell her that she's arrogant is not what's going on. But to tell her I perceive her as being arrogant? That was going on. You told us, right? Yeah, and that's what I did perceive, but I thought, that's the old stuff. If I... If I tell her... No, no, no, no. That's old behavior. Then old stuff is the one-upping her. That's the old stuff. The new stuff is this new perception of her being arrogant. It's a brand new... I didn't have that ever before. This is a brand new perception of somebody being arrogant. That's fresh stuff. Well, I think I had the perception, but how I would respond to it was new. I mean, I think old stuff included perceiving, being aware that I think she's arrogant. You've been aware that people have been arrogant before, but this is a brand new example. Okay, all right, yes. And then with that brand new example, your first response was an old response, namely, arrogant person?

[32:31]

Well, one-upper. Shoot her in the knees. That's the old response, right? Right. Okay? Okay? You notice the old response to this new data. Now, this is a new data, but it's in a class that you've seen before. This is a new example of a class of data called people who need to be lowered. Somebody's standing up a little too hot. We've got to lower that person because they're looming up slightly above me. Get them down. That's an old response to a new example of that. But you dropped the old response. You tried. You tried. And then you thought, well, rather than now, rather than like cutting her down, I'll try to like do this thing you said of addressing the feel for her to be in that position. And maybe you weren't really doing that to cut her down. But in fact, if she tells you how she felt at that time, it would somehow bring her in some sense down to earth. So in a nonviolent way, you would have grounded the conversation away from I'm great to I felt good.

[33:39]

But what I'm saying to you is that even a way that might have been not necessarily better, but more direct and more revealing and more to the point of what's going on with you is to tell her about your perception. But not as a perception of reality, but as a fantasy that you're having. Namely, I had this, you know, but you might even check with her. Do you want to hear about what's going on with me in response to what you just said? There's no dead people around here right now, just two live people were talking, and you want to hear about, you're talking to me, do you want to know about what's going on with me? I had this really, this really, this strong thing that just happened with me, but it's kind of intense. You say, no, I don't want to hear about it, just let me tell you more about how I did, you know. But she might say, yeah, what happened? You say, well, I had this fantasy, you know, I interpreted, I had an interpretation about what you just said. I thought you were like really promoting yourself and telling me how great you did, and I felt like you were really arrogant. That was my fantasy. Not only that, but I had this other reaction.

[34:44]

You want to hear about that? And she said, well, I don't know. Maybe that's enough for now. But she might say, yeah, tell me. Then I thought I was one-upping you. She said, yeah, wow, what would you have said? You say, well, I would have said that. I say, well, amazing. Kind of like you're just having these interpretations, and based on these interpretations, if you believe them, you would maybe do all these other weird things. But you didn't fall for your own perceptions completely. That's why you told her that it was a fantasy or an interpretation. So you're not accusing her of what's going on with yourself. And then they might say, wow. They might even say, well, I guess I was kind of arrogant. So your interpretation, I actually see some truth to it. Or they might say, oh, I thought I was telling you how unskillful I was. It's interesting. So... And when I said that, you saw that as a manipulation, but for me it was like a way to find out what's going on with the person, not by saying, you're this way or that way, but tell them, this is what I felt you were doing, you know, and how did it seem to you?

[35:59]

Find out that, yes, you were right, or somewhat right, or the person's really surprised by your interpretation, and when they tell you how they felt, you might feel really differently. But this way is more like studying your own karma. I don't know more, but it's another way to study your karma. The way you're doing it also is studying your karma because you studied your own ability and you dropped it because, in fact, one of the precepts is not to praise yourself at the expense of another. And you didn't indulge in that, again, in violating that precept. You saw that as not only old, you saw it as old, but old also means an old violation of interdependence. So you didn't, you dropped that. And you switched this other way, which is pretty good, actually. What did it feel like? But without noticing, without telling her that you didn't recognize this statement she made. And if you'd done that, it would have been very similar, I think, to what I was suggesting. It was like I had this motivation to defuse the situation, and when it didn't work with my first shot at it, I didn't trust my own skills, and I panicked.

[37:12]

That was the feeling and the thought that I had at the time. I don't know how to do this. And I backed off. And defuse often is used to apply to a charge, right? Yes. In myself. Yeah, right. It was me. Right. Because I often, when I'm in that kind of a situation, have the feeling that I'm a participant in provoking it. And so I was... You had been provoked by what she said, and you knew that you could hurt her or yourself in response to that charge. But even backing up one further, that perhaps I had had a role in provoking her bragging in the first place. Oh, yeah, that too. So I thought, I'm not skilled enough to make it worse, so then I backed off. And wished you had been there. Really, that was the thought I had. I wondered what Webb could tell me if I had. So, in this case, a charge was built up, and you tried to defuse it, and it didn't work.

[38:19]

And I was saying, in some ways, what I was suggesting as a way to diffuse the charge is bring it right out in front and say, here's the charge. The charge is... You don't say the charge. First of all, you say what set the charge off. This is what turned the charge on. Now, she might not even want to know about the charge yet. You just tell her what turned it on. If she... You can also tell her, and that set a charge off in me. And when that charge was set off, then I thought of doing these other things. Now, you may not need to go that far with her maybe just telling her will be enough to diffuse it. And maybe she never needs to know that that charged you up. She might not be able to guess that it would because you're bringing it up. And you're bringing it up because you want her to know what was going on with her. And you also, to some extent, want to know how it was for her. Because a lot of times I say to people, you know, I have this fantasy that you're angry at me. You know,

[39:21]

And we can go around and punish various people and defend against various people by what do you call it? What do they call that? Preemptive strikes, right? We can do preemptive strikes against these people who we have imagined are angry at us. They're not ready to attack us, and we can go around and attack a bunch of people before they attack us. Rather than say, I have this fantasy that you're angry at me, and then find out, perhaps they say yes. But a lot of times they say, no, I'm just really depressed or I'm really angry at something. You know, it's hard, you know, different people have different percentages when you do this and check this out. But my experience is quite often the person's just down and 20 people think that they're them because they met 20 people and every person they met they looked at with a face that looked like they were angry but really they're just down and depressed and it's not really personal to anybody uh except maybe it's maybe personal to that they lost something or they're you know and sometimes they are angry at you but when you find out that that also sometimes takes the charge away because you're not carrying it

[40:48]

at the level of imagination anymore. You're not in a conversation. And also sometimes people... A fantasy that you're arrogant is a little bit different than I have a fantasy you're angry. So another way to say it would be... You know, I had this perception that you thought you did a great thing. That's what I felt like you were telling me. Well, yeah, I guess I did think I did a great thing. And then you might say, and when I thought you were saying that, I had this strong reaction. And they might say, what was it? I felt like I wanted to say I did a greater thing. But this is different from actually indulging in it.

[41:52]

This is like putting it on the table. Which is very, you know... Well, that's quite a conversation. Quite skillful. Quite wholesome, I would say. But you might not think it's so wholesome. You might think you're revealing your underside, right? But pretty skillfully and pretty honestly. And for what purpose? Understand yourself. Understand them. Which helps you understand yourself. But the person might not be up for this. So you have to kind of check to see if they're up for this. Because not everybody's up for a real talk like this. A lot of people just want to, like, say something and... And then maybe get some recognition and... That's about it. But, and sometimes that's the way it can go.

[42:52]

But sometimes in the process of maybe just saying something and wanting some recognition for what they said, become involved in something very intense and you want some recognition for what's going on with you. I have that thought. And that's fine. But then you got to check out to see if they're up for that. Like that's what I'm saying. This is called building, building the conversation. You can't have it unless the person's like agrees to have it. Now they don't have to officially, you know, sign beforehand, but, but sometimes that's what they have to do, especially for something really intense. You've got to get, you got to like get them to sign up for the conversation. And by trial and error, what kinds of intensities you need the other person to be ready for. People can take a lot if you prepare them. Sometimes people come to me and say, I have something to say to you, and it's really blah, blah, and blah, blah.

[43:56]

And I say, okay. And they say, I'm ready now. But once they prepare me, it's almost never as bad as what they prepare me for. But if they just come and said that thing without any preparation, it might have been a real jolt. Like I just thought of that story of Houdini, who he said, anybody can slug me in the stomach as hard as they want. The dares that he made to public. And after one of his performances, two young college kids came backstage and walked up to him and said, we understand that you have this dare, you know, and he's about being punched in the stomach. And he said, that's right, and they punched him. Huh? Before he was prepared. And they ruptured his, I believe, his, some, whether it was spleen or, they ruptured him with some internal organ. Because they didn't say, okay, now I'm going to hit you, get ready. Because he had strong stomach muscles and he could actually have a strong punch.

[45:01]

But if you're not ready and the muscles are relaxed, then those organs... it can be hurt. So it hurt his organ, and then it got infected. And then he continued to follow his regular schedule of escape things. And the next escape thing he did was he went under the ice in Lake Erie, I think, and he was under a long time with the infection, came out, got pneumonia, and died. Now, he might have gotten pneumonia without the kidney or whatever, ruptured spleen and the infected. But if you prepare them and get them to agree, oftentimes it makes a big difference. And you can talk about really difficult things, but if they're not up for it, it can be

[46:04]

Either they don't participate, which is very frustrating and that can be hurtful, or they get penetrated too deeply by what you bring up. And you can get penetrated too deeply if people come up and talk to you without asking for your permission. People can tell you something that's quite true In a way, for them, it's quite true. And you maybe can see the truth of it, but you don't have a relationship that can contain the truth. So the Buddha said, if something is harmful and untrue, don't say it. If it's harmful and true, don't say it. If it's unharmful but not true, don't say it. If it's harmless and true, wait for the right time.

[47:06]

Because even a harmless or non-harming and true thing at the wrong time can be harmful. But there are some things which are harmful and true But sometimes things that are harmful, I mean are true, but are not harmful if the person is up for hearing. So if they're up for hearing, that maybe protects them, plus means it's maybe the right time. So this is an example of that, of observing karma. You had some intentions, something happened to you, it gave rise to certain feelings, you had certain intentions, You dropped them because you thought they were inappropriate or harmful. That was good, I would say. Then you tried to do something else you thought was not harmful, helpful. That was your intention. You tried to do it. It didn't work out very well. And then you went back to the drawing board. Yeah, I went through.

[48:11]

I thought, I don't know how to do this well enough to go through this. That's pretty skillful, is to sometimes say, well, I just don't see how to proceed. When you tell the person or you don't, they kind of sense probably that you're withdrawing and maybe let you. Sometimes they say, where'd you go? And then you maybe say, you know, I feel I'm kind of like baffled about how to proceed here, you know. An example of observing karma. Okay? I don't know who's next, whether it's you or Pim. Do you know? You haven't asked the question for a while. You really helped me with the question. Yesterday I realized that... I'm still struggling with it, but what it triggered for me was an experience I've had I was trying to tell some other people about it, but I got another piece just now.

[49:14]

Something happened in my work life. I got a lot of credit for doing something, and it felt really good. Because you actually thought you did it, partly. When I did what I did, I wasn't doing it for recognition. You did sort of think you did it. OK. And I was very eager to tell some other people about this recognition. And so in two different instances with two different people, I was very eager to tell them about these accolades. And after I felt real uncomfortable. And yesterday, it really hit me how I, what made me feel uncomfortable was that I was giving the impression that I did this.

[50:19]

I felt a little uncomfortable. Just now with this example, I was thinking how different it would have been had I been able to say You know, I just told you this because I want you to think I'm real good. And your approval or your respect. And it makes me so uncomfortable to tell you this because I know I didn't do this on myself. I mean, that would have been so different. My reaction yesterday was, I'm not going to tell. I don't want to repeat. Because it looks like I'm doing too much. It's better not to say anything about it at all. But I think I would feel more authentic if I were to be able to tell people, hey, you know, this is a nice thing that happened, but I want you to know I'm telling you this. I want you to...

[51:22]

respect me or think I did a good job. That's a wonderful example because it has so many layers on it. It really profoundly hit me yesterday about how I did not do this. That's great. But another thing, could I say something about this? Yes. Sometimes when we're recognized, I mean, not sometimes. When we're recognized, we can't help it sometimes, but feel good. I mean, I think there's nothing wrong with feeling good when someone recognizes us. It's a really important thing. Even if they recognize us for something bad, the recognition is what counts. Like some kids come to me and they say, you know, I'm really bad, I'm really bad, I'm bad, [...] you know, and one of your impulses is to say, oh, you're not so bad. But if I do that, then finally I say, boy, you are bad, and you go, you see, you see, I have been successful.

[52:32]

You know, recognition is really the most, is the key ingredient. being recognized and then appreciated for that is also something wonderful. And sometimes there's some people you can there's some people you can go to who are fairly well developed and love you and you can go and you can say how wonderful it was for me to be recognized in such a situation. I just want to tell you that. And some people can tolerate your good fortune at being recognized. They can say, oh, how wonderful for you. Share that with people. And you can do that without even telling them what it was. But what you're sharing is how one, you want to tell them how wonderful it was to be recognized. So what happened was one of the people I told, I saw again, he was with his partner and he wanted me to tell her

[53:39]

Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. But what you're doing in this story is you're telling us another layer in that you didn't just tell people to share your joy at being recognized, which is normal and healthy. You told them also, for this other reason, maybe to get another recognition, maybe. And that's a separate thing. But the good thing about it is that in the whole swirl of events, by seeing whatever part of it triggered it, I don't know whether it was the sharing the joy of being recognized or noticing people to get something for yourself, you notice that, in fact, it was only because other people were helping you that you were able to perform in that way. So it's interesting that the traditional way, the actual language of don't praise self at the expense of others.

[54:42]

Don't put yourself up by putting somebody else down. That's pretty much literally what it says. But a more, in some sense, more enlightened way to say it is don't praise yourself in isolation. Because anything good you do must have been helped by other people. and dogs, and so on. And in fact, one example of that was this man was being honored at some banquet, some great thing for the Japanese community in Japantown in San Francisco. He was being honored by the community for this great thing he did. And Suzuki Roshi's wife thought, oh, that's great, he did that, but they didn't mention his family. She said, in Japan, if a person, if a man, does something great, we all know that the only reason why he could do it is his wife and children. So you shouldn't just congratulate the man, you should congratulate the whole family.

[55:46]

But they didn't, they just congratulated the man. So she said, well, I didn't know, maybe if I should say something. So there was two people sitting on either side of her. One conservative person and one liberal person. who you know usually Japanese people shut up about some stuff but some cases you should speak so she asked the conservative person you know and the liberal person would be yeah say something conservative person might be somebody's feelings might be hurt if you so she talked to both of them they both thought it was a good idea and of course we also congratulate missus and little ones you know so she stood up and said I also want to and everybody cheered for the whole family right So, you know, when people get Academy Awards, to some extent they recognize the other people that made it possible for them to. So, but still, it's wonderful for the recognition to come back to this point.

[56:48]

Because it's like they're recognizing the beauty at this point, which is coming by means of all this. And sometimes when you feel that love, which is really for inner... but coming at this point. And then when you speak, you know, somehow, if we can find a way to say, to draw in all that made it possible, it is wonderful. And then all these other little points feel appreciated too, and then they glow. So it is nice, but sometimes the rush of the beauty, of the light of appreciation, this is part of the tricky part about it, in that rush, the self, you know, the self is actually the place where the enlightenment happens. Where the light comes and the enlightenment happens at a self. In the experience, you can't remember anybody else at that time. That's sort of like, what do you call it?

[57:50]

That's part of the territory of enlightenment is that sometimes you're blinded by the joy of it and might forget that everybody helped that happen. But then maybe later you remember, and then it's never too late to say, oh, now I want to... But in many Zen stories, the brilliance of the moment, they just... And then later maybe they do some prostrations and stuff like that to say, you know, to express their gratitude for all the conditions that made it possible for that to happen. You know, anything that goes because of what we do ourselves, and yet we stand in a place where it happened. You know? You know, you are there when this good thing happened and in fact you are there and it happened right around you.

[58:56]

But it wasn't you that did it. We have to work with the fact that it looks like you that did it. And that's part of the trick is that because it wasn't you that did it, it can look like you that did it. That's part of the wonder of not-self is that good can happen at all these different places. It was itself. No good could happen. Nothing could happen. It's a funny thing. Yes, Ben. Can you take an exception? I'm thinking in terms of some culture. If not, It's a cultural result for some people how good they are. How good they are? Yeah.

[59:58]

It is hard to be humble. And when somebody comes and kind of breaks me up, how do you say, when you get back? Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, at a cultural... I think all cultures appreciate appreciation, but they have different styles. So if you have... Sometimes between Western and Eastern culture, the Western way of expressing to an Eastern person makes the Eastern person... Confuses the Eastern person because the Western person sometimes from an arrogant position expresses appreciation. So then the eastern... So who's left to be humble? So then the one who got complimented has to now be humble. A funny position that you've just been praised and now you have to curl up in a ball.

[61:03]

Whereas if the other person would have come on more humbly, then you could just... You wouldn't necessarily get inflated, but you could just sort of stay in your skin, so to speak. But... If you're supposed to be humble and then they've just praised you, where do you go with that? You're not supposed to swell up, right? But if they're swelled up, you have to shrink. So why do I have to shrink when I get praised? It's difficult. Whereas in the East, the person might praise you from a humbler position and you could just sort of say thank you. That would be sufficient. As part of the funny thing between Eastern and Western cultures, my wife talks about this, is that When you go to somebody's house in China, and this may be true to some extent in Southeast Asia and Japan and Korea, when you go to somebody's house, the host says, sorry. Sorry, my house is no good. Sorry, my food is no good.

[62:06]

Sorry, this is... The host does that. right? Sorry, sorry. I'm sorry, this is no good, you know. And they kind of like, my wife does that too. She makes it and she tells you all the stuff that's wrong with it, you know. Now she's getting over that a little bit, you know. Okay, you've done that a few times. 25 years of that's enough. Just, you know, just serve it. Just serve it and, you know, just let the other people it's good and, you know, don't argue with them and just say, you know, but it's hard because she said the hard thing in Asia, you go, this is no good. The host says that to the guest and the guest says, oh, oh, you know, they don't argue with you. In the West,

[63:07]

when you're the host and you come in, the host is like, you know, welcome to my palace. This is my, you know, that's the Western thing. Okay? Somebody's like, you know, right? So when the Eastern person welcomes the Western person, if the Eastern person goes, oh, this is no good, the Western person is, oh, this is my house. Then they sort of say, oh, yeah, why don't you give me something good? They kind of like don't get it taking a humble position so then they take the the superior position because there's a vacancy there nobody's supposed to take it and with two eastern people when the host says oh no this is no good the other person says oh no it's not good it is good no no it is good it is good no it's no good no they keep going down lower and There's problems in that scenario, too, but anyway. The opposite of his scenario, where everybody's laughing.

[64:10]

Right. So if you get a Westerner and an Easterner, and the Easterner goes, oh, this is no good, the Westerner says, OK, maybe next time you'll make something decent. So the Easterner person says, what are you doing? When you clap, she comes at you, yeah. So that's part of the East-West problem, you know. I think the Eastern person would compliment you in a different way. And then a little bit, you know, they go down, too. So it's kind of, you know, it's an interactive thing rather than this big person's coming to you and saying, oh, you're doing great, and you've got to go. Where are you going to go? So I think that's a part of a cultural problem there. I don't think, but in the East they compliment people, too, and they appreciate people, too. It's just that it's a different it's like, you know, you're supposed to also be ashamed at the same time that you're being appreciated in the East. Whereas in the West, we're guilty. And there's something wrong with us.

[65:14]

In the East, you're not doing as well as you should. Slightly different. You can do whatever you want, but basically, you're a sinful person. So it's a little, you know, we have different dynamics. But all over the world, Appreciation of other people is a good thing. And everybody thrives on that. It's good stuff. And being appreciated helps you realize things by yourself. The more appreciated you are, the closer you're getting to the point of realizing that there's nobody here to appreciate, really. The more your actions are appreciated, the closer you're getting to realize they're not your actions. So it's not by pounding people down and not... they'll get the point that they're not doing anything on their own. It's the other way around. Appreciate them up until they can open up and say, hey, everybody's helping me, including you, who's complimenting me. But you have to be aware of cultural differences, too.

[66:17]

if somebody seems to be cringing at the compliment, you start figuring out, what's going on here? Maybe I'm coming out a little too strong. Maybe I should be more humble in my praise. Like, excuse me, but, you know, my praises are not very good, but... But I have a little praise for you. May I offer it? I think you just did a great job on that one. And they say, oh, it's not true, but, you know, everyone else actually did it, but... Any other homework reports? Or questions about how to study? This seems kind of like the marriage counseling where they say, well, I feel this way when you say that.

[67:33]

I get that. It's kind of a waking feeling. They repeat it. You're sure that they understood what you said. It's kind of like that. Yeah. And this is an aspect of modern-day... therapy situations, which I think are close to Buddhist practice, actually. You know the word therapy? It means attend or attendant. Then there's this lag time in the brain, and then before normally what we have come out, or something like that, because I'm watching, like, cheering.

[68:44]

And then, ultimately, I feel like I'm changing it anyway, or filtering it. And I start to, I start to almost feel a little bit of the same thing. Yeah. Duller, slower, zombie. What else? Boring. How about awkward? These are all, and three examples come to my mind when you bring this up. All these feelings are feelings which one might have in a dance class, particularly a dance class of a new dance that you haven't done before, or in a foreign language class, in learning meditation, which is the class you're in now.

[70:04]

A class on studying karma. Most people, a lot of people anyway, you seem to be one of them, can walk across the room not fast, not zombie-esque, and maybe, quite interestingly, you could do a few little moves as you moved across the floor quite easily. So you already know how to move and talk in ways that can be quite witty, fast, smooth, skillful, interesting. Okay? You already know that, right? You do, anyway. And some other people here do, too. The fortunate ones are the ones who don't know how to do that, so they've got nothing to lose from learning to meditating. But skillful people, people who are skillful in one realm, moving over into a new realm... in some sense they're giving up their skill and they're not going to be awkward.

[71:11]

And so in the process of learning a new dance, you're awkward, you have to slow down. You know, you can't dance as fast as the experienced people, and you can't do the dance as skillfully and as smoothly as you can do some other things. So you're slowing down, you're awkward, maybe not too interesting, maybe not a lot of people would be like crowding around to watch you in your dance class. People would love to watch you. Like, for example, people who know you as a very skillful person might be interested to see you in a beginning realm. They might think it's really interesting. Someone who really knows you well might love to see you as a beginner, as an awkward beginner. But people who don't know you well, for all they know you are, so you just look like an awkward, slow zombie. So most people wouldn't be interested to see us in a dance class or to watch us in a language class. except someone who loved us, like Buddha would love to see us in his awkward, vulnerable, add that in, slow state.

[72:21]

Buddha would be interested in us seeing this because we're showing our childlike openness to be in a situation where we don't know what to do and we're learning what we haven't learned yet. So... So like, you know, doing mindfulness means you move from a level where you don't move from mindfulness into a level where you do move with mindfulness. And that transition means you're going to be awkward and you could say slow, but you could also say like at a dead stop. Like you just don't know how to do it at all. You can't even move. Like in a dance class. Every move seems to be the wrong move. So, moving from this level of mindfulness to a deeper level of mindfulness, there's an awkwardness. You have to slow down to get the rhythm. Or like jumping rope, you know? You have to go... You have to stop and get attuned to it. And then you're with it. And then once you're into it, then sometimes you trip, of course, and that's not very interesting from your point of view.

[73:29]

Other people think it's interesting, maybe. But maybe not. Maybe it's too bad. Try again. So when you first get awareness of your impulses, checking your impulses, it's like, well, first of all, where's the impulse? It can't even move you. Oh, there's an impulse. Okay, now... Okay, here goes. One, one, there it is. No, lost. So you're missing the moment. Whereas here you feel like, well, I'm... But could not be mindful of it. Mindfulness, you kind of miss it. But given that you're moving from the superficial level of participating in something where you can follow at this level, but can move to this level, you're going to be missing it. So awkwardness and self-consciousness are the beginning phases of mindfulness. Eventually, however, in mindfulness, you're going to be doing it smoothly, gracefully, and so on.

[74:39]

Or like the first learner, if you're awkward. Or like juggling. You can juggle, you know, you can be relaxed, juggling three balls. Relax. Nice conversation. Hey, you know, you're right there. Okay? Well, how about two more? Most people will, even one, awkward and stiff for a while because it's a whole new game. You don't know how to do this. You've only done three. So you're not really there as much. And you can't, like, carry on a conversation while you're doing one more ball than you used to. And so on. Every time you add another ball, there's an awkwardness. There's a transition. Okay. So it's a natural thing, as you start to notice things which you hadn't been noticing before, that you get awkward. And on and on, you know. Like a yoga posture, you know. You're in a yoga posture. Okay, now turn this, that, and stretch that, and do that, and do that.

[75:46]

I can't do anything on my head. Before they tell you, you're happily doing it. And they start giving you instructions about how to do it more and more fully, and you fully fall over. Because you're thinking about so much. Because you're starting to like the fullness of the posture. That you're just like overloaded with all you have to think about to be fully there. And you must say to the young teacher, shut up. For people, it's easier to see, like people are doing a handstand or a headstand, and the teacher says, stretch that. And they're probably thinking, I can barely stand up, don't give me any more things to do. But if you leave people alone like that, they just sink into their habit. So to move into a new dimension of presence, there's an awkward transition where you look like a fool, a zombie, you're vulnerable. When you're doing the posture the way you know how, you're invulnerable.

[76:49]

I'm really strong. You're actually really weak, but you feel really strong. And again, being really strong and being vulnerable go together. In a very weak posture, you don't feel very vulnerable. But when you really express your strength, you're very vulnerable. So, here you are sitting watching the dancers. It's not that strong. Get up and try to dance. But then you're also vulnerable to all kinds of mistakes. And if you get to be a good dancer... then you're not vulnerable to those mistakes anymore, you're vulnerable to new mistakes. Mistakes that experienced dancer, which are, in some sense, more devastating, because more people are watching, and so on. So, this is a natural thing. That if you actually start doing a practice like watching your mindfulness, being mindful of watching your karma, being mindful of your karma, you'll feel awkward, you'll miss out on the moment, because you're dealing with a bigger moment.

[77:54]

You're moving into new territory. You're a beginner. You're a student. You're young again. You're fresh. You're not an old expert. You're trying something new. And you're somewhat insecure, so you're tense. And so on and so on. Okay? It's normal. Also, in speaking a foreign language, you can't, like, speak the foreign language when you're learning how to speak it. You can't speak it and also, like, keep track of everything that's going on in the room. Whereas people already know how to speak it, they speak it and, you know, do various things, blah, blah, blah. You have to concentrate on every word, like, what did they say? So you're kind of out of what's going on. But they appreciate you. They know you don't know what's going on and you can't participate, but they appreciate it. They see you trying to understand... what they're doing, what they're saying, and what you have to say.

[78:59]

In the room, some other foreigner sitting in the room, who's not trying to understand, they're sitting there perfectly comfortable, speaking English to themselves in their head, you know, saying, what are these, you know, it's nice, smells nice here, that's fine, but you're not extending yourself, so they feel like you're not participating in their culture. In fact, you're staying over, you're basically in an American or English-speaking shell in another country where they're speaking Japanese. If you start speaking Japanese, you're vulnerable, awkward, don't know what's going on. But in fact, that's right, you don't. And when you start speaking the language, then you really start opening up to how you don't know what's going on. But they appreciate that. They love it. Another example of this is how when French people come to America, you know, they speak English.

[80:01]

Some French people. They have huge vocabularies, some of them. I have a friend who has a huge vocabulary, but he doesn't go to the trouble of speaking, you know, pronouncing English words in English. He's just not really going to, like, lower himself to speak English. He's a Frenchman. They don't speak English. We should learn French. Basically, everything they say in English is like, learn French. So you kind of feel like, you know, you've been here for 18 years now. You have a vocabulary that's the same size. And you're still speaking with this atrocious accent. I can't understand what you're saying. Why don't you speak English? You know all the words, you know the grammar, but you're just not pronouncing the words." You know, it's that kind of thing that happens. Of course, we should be patient and not really get angry.

[81:14]

at such, you know, resistance. But what if, along with the thought that can be played, you also have an emotional reaction of irritation or frustration. And I think that that is often communicated because people tend to just be like, oh, I'm going to kick up on our body and our emotions. Well, their body. I don't think so. But maybe you're more clairvoyant. But most people... can hear other people.

[82:15]

Most people who have ears and eyes are relating to what people are seeing. They hear people with their body. So, maybe some other people can read their emotions, but... Yeah, right. They might see something on your face, like... So, if something is communicated to that other person, Uh, which might hurt their feelings. They think that we're judging them. Yes. Uh, is that, uh, karma? Asian karma? Um, well, if you don't, you really, if we could look in your mind, there was not the intention of, I want to make this face. Okay. Okay. It's almost like either it's not karma, it's almost like tapping your knee, you know?

[83:15]

Like if you're like a child and you see people do certain things in your realm of what you teach, and they do certain things in certain ways, it's almost like not karma that you go... It's almost like not karma. And sometimes it hurts them. But it's almost like a salivating or knee-jerk reaction. So it's almost... However, you can apologize for things that, you know, that are like not karmic, in a way, which are, in a sense, it's almost like the results of karma, is that you train yourself in some realm for a long time, and then when some people do certain things, because you've been... Certain background experiences, it's related to karma that you're irritated by certain things. Like if you develop a high sense, high aesthetic sense of something, and someone shows you something, you have a strong reaction to it, because of all the work you did in that realm to appreciate things more subtly.

[84:18]

So it's related to karma, but it's not maybe active karma. It's more like a, like I said last time, old karma is dependent on conditions, born of conditions or formed by conditions, dependent on past and the basis for feelings. Okay? That's old karma. So, when someone, for example, if somebody here knows Japanese and nobody else does, and somebody says something in Japanese, you know, 35 people aren't bothered, but the way they're learning Japanese is really irritated. So because of their past karma of learning Japanese and what the person says, that becomes a basis for them feeling upset or feeling happy. So in some realms, like if you're in a monastery and you train yourself for learning Japanese in some area, and someone does something sloppy in that area, you maybe have that kind of feeling.

[85:26]

like you have a feeling like, ooh, and they see that look on your face. And then maybe they feel hurt because you're an authority figure and they see you wince at something they do. It's like a feeling that they read in you. Your body reacts to that feeling, but it's not actually active karma. But the other example you had of, based on that feeling of irritation, if then you talk to them from that place, that might be really unskillful. If they don't tell you, it's hard to apologize. Yeah, you could. You could say it. Yes.

[86:29]

So that's an example of probably a feeling that arises based on various conditions and past actions. Okay? That's an example based on old karma, just a feeling of disgust. Well, usually, I mean, maybe somebody can think of another example, but usually, yeah. ... The upright person is not devastated by criticism?

[87:33]

No, they thrive on it. Upright people thrive on everything. You have an upright person. This thing happens to them? Wisdom. That thing happens to them? Wisdom. Whatever happens to them, they resonate with wisdom because what they are is just what comes to them. So, but that's not to say other people are up to that. So you've got to be careful. Another example of this is in tea ceremony. One part of the tea ceremony is to carry in a, Japanese tea ceremony is to carry in a little, kind of a low, this is the wrong shape, but a low dish. And you carry it like this. It's called a can sleeve. It's for the waste water from making the tea. The person who made the tea walks in holding it like this. And the left hand goes forward like that.

[88:37]

Some of you who have not studied tea ceremony, if you went in the tea ceremony room and you saw the person come in holding the tea, the wastewater container in the usual way, you would probably just see a person holding it that way. It wouldn't mean much to you to see them holding it so that the thing was going forward from their hand. If you put it around, it wouldn't make much difference to you at all. Probably. This way or this way wouldn't make much difference to you. But if you study tea a long time, like five years, ten years, I did for quite a long time, Then one time a guy came in, holding this thing the other way, backwards. And some other older students were there with me watching, and we just thought it was like the funniest thing we ever saw. It was just totally funny, this little turn. It was so funny. Or another case is like we, in the ceremony, there's one kind of tea we make where it comes in a powder form, and you put the powdered tea in the bowl, you pour hot water, and then you take like bamboo whisk, bamboo that's been cut into fine pieces, into like a whisk, and then you whisk up this tea.

[90:03]

And then after you're done with it, you take this bamboo whisk, which is a whisk, like a whisk we have in a Western kitchen or something, except it's bamboo. You take it out of the thing, and you set it down on its handle so it's standing upright. One time somebody took this thing out, set it down, and it just tipped over. It just sort of tipped over. like a leaning tower of Pisa, except it went all the way. And we all just thought that was, like, the funniest thing. Gut-bustingly funny to see this whisk, you know. And it's because in the context of tea ceremony, you set this thing down like you're setting a mountain down. You go, boom. And this thing stands there, and the person went, boom, and it went, boom. So was he accepted? I don't remember. I don't remember. It's likely that the person would also think it's funny.

[91:07]

Or that they would be very, very embarrassed. One or the other. But it's just so funny because of the past karma. You think it's extremely funny. And you really... I'm going to, like, laugh at this person to entertain them, hurt them. You can't help it. It is a spontaneous reaction because of studying so long. So past karma lays the basis for certain things to really make you laugh

[91:38]

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