Can I ask a question about this? Could we regard the already existing form of going to the bathroom as exempt from coming to tell you we're going to your bathroom? Would you like that to be included? For this retreat, we should not, we should not, we should not, we should include that. That is the question. Actually, I was talking more about leaving during periods of meditation, actually. During kihina, I do not assume you're going to the toilet, but we, but... But we can say that. So we can say, if you're not going to the toilet for some other kind of personal hygienic emergency, we might say, for this session, you might have a form that, if you're not going to go for that reason, you feel like you have to go for some other reason, maybe talk to me about it.

[01:04]

We could try that just for this session, that practical example. But the main thing I'm talking about is that in the student-teacher relationship in Zen, where in a sense the teacher has more power, the way to overcome that differential is through intimacy. And the way to develop intimacy is for both people in this relationship to talk about what forms they can use to test to see if the teacher holding onto the power But the student's trying to maneuver in some way around the power of the teacher in some way. Because all those teachers, the student, they think the teacher has more power. The students also may be trying some fast stuff to manipulate and gain something in the relationship with power. They may be trying to get the power, too. A lot of students approach Zen to get the teacher's power. And a lot of teachers may be not real teachers, but teachers with problems trying to hold their power. And then because of holding power, they may attract students who say, that person's got a lot of power.

[02:11]

I want to get some of that. So then you have that kind of relationship. But I don't think that's really the Buddha dharma, is for the teacher to hold the power and see what student can get some of it. But that often does happen in Zen practice. Is it OK if I went and left the room for a few minutes to go try some food? How long are you going to go for? About five minutes. Five minutes? Yeah, thanks for checking if he's fine with me. However, even if it wasn't fine with me, this would be part of what you'd understand if you developed this kind of relationship. In my case, I say to people who do check with me, just to make sure that even if it's not fine with me, I still would want you to do it if you thought it was good to do. But in this case, it is fine with me, but even if it wasn't, it doesn't mean that you would be violating the relationship by going anywhere. Bilateral doesn't mean you do what the other person says.

[03:12]

It means you do things with them. So you can be walking along with someone and they can say, let's go north. And you can say, I don't want to. And they say, well, I want you to. And you say, well, I don't want to. And they say, well, I'm going to go anywhere. And you say, okay, and I want you to come with me. And I'm not going to. But you're doing it together. And they talk to you about wanting to go north. They don't just go north. They tell you they want to go north. They tell you that They don't just drag you. They tell you they want you. You're not controlling each other. You're sharing everything. So in creativity, you're not controlling each other. You're interdependent. So once you say to somebody you want them to go with you and you don't go, everything's changed. But they don't have to go with you necessarily for that interdependence to be managed. Last year, when we had this team at Pittsburgh, it was my very first time And after a couple of days, I recognized that in the afternoon, I was starting to get real shaky, like my glory.

[04:15]

And so I understood it. I went to Catherine, who was doing a function that Nancy is doing at this retreat. I said, OK, between this time and this time, I'm going to be up in my room with my feet in the air. And I'll be back down for the doctor talk, and it's like, is that okay? Is that an acceptable way to, I mean, if you know that, I just wasn't able to take it the whole afternoon last year. Well, that's a good example. And so the bilateral side is for you to learn the difference between saying, I'm going upstairs to rest, and... I think it's a good idea if I go upstairs to rest. What do you think? That's the difference. Just not telling people at all, of course, is extremely illogical. Telling them is manifesting the bilateralness. It's manifesting relationship. If you're thinking of doing something, don't even tell people.

[05:15]

Of course, that's really not intimate, generally speaking. To tell them what you are going to do is moving towards intimacy. Like for somebody to come up to me and say, I'm not going to tell you what I'm going to do. That's more intimate. That's more intimate than just doing stuff without talking to me. So most people in the world do not talk to me about what they're going to do. They just do it. I mean, they think they just do it. Actually, everything everybody does on the planet, they're doing in dependence on me and you. according to what he's teaching. But they don't think so. They think they do stuff all by themselves and they suffer because of that attitude. They're stressed by that attitude. If they come and tell you, you know, I'm going to go do something and I'm not going to tell you what I'm going to do. It's just like, that's kind of interesting. What do you mean? You're kind of attractive.

[06:18]

Thanks for telling me. That was cool. I don't know. So I think it's a step in the right direction to go and say to Catherine, I feel blah, blah, and I think it's good for me to rest, and I'm going to do it. It's a step more intimate to say, I feel blah, blah, I think it's good for me to rest. What do you think? And then Catherine might say, that seems fine to me. Then you have... I would say you're manifesting your relationship, your bilateral relationship, and you're being kind of bilateral with that person. She might also say, I don't think it's a good idea. And you might say, I hear you. And you might have a talk about it, and you might change your mind. Or you might say, I hear you, but I still think it's best for me to go to rest. And you still go, but you know as you go up there that this person disagreed. And that you've taken, you've let that into your life. You have lighted your straw to that person by telling them.

[07:23]

It doesn't mean your truth got thrown out the window. It's just you endangered it by telling somebody about it. And then they could taste that we were disagreeing. And in fact, you put your truth in danger and you got kind of like a little bit dented, or you know, you got twisted a little bit by, somebody doesn't agree with my troth. That troth disagrees with this troth. But you, because you have a kind of marriage relationship with this person, you dare to tell them something that you think is true. Namely, I think it's true, somewhat true, might be true, that it's good for me to rest. But when you're married to somebody, you tell them your truth. And then they say, oh, that's a really stupid idea. It doesn't mean it's a stupid idea. It doesn't mean that they're right. It doesn't mean you're right. It just means this is your real truth, and for the sake of intimacy, you put it out there, and you say, well, what do you think?

[08:27]

And they say... It's not too bad. It's really poor. It's excellent. But the point is you endanger it. And primarily to realize intimacy. That's the main reason to do it. And you need forms to do that. You need to develop forms about when you're going to do it, about what. So, in fact, what you did was a form You enacted a form, which we often do in formal practice, of telling that person, and if you had said it, instead of, I'm going to do it, I'm thinking of doing it, what do you think? I think that would have been almost, I think, pretty much right on the mark of what it's like to have a bilateral relationship. You're thinking of doing something, and you tell someone you think you're doing it, but you really have not decided to do it yet. Because you don't decide to do certain things without talking to certain people.

[09:32]

You think of going to Europe, but you don't decide to go to Europe without talking to certain people. You think of going to Europe, and you'd like to decide to go to Europe maybe immediately, but because you have a relationship with certain people, you just don't decide. You just say, well, I'd like to go, but I really would like to go. I think it'd be great to go. And I just got a free ticket. I would really like to go, but I have this relationship with someone and I need to go talk to them. And if you go talk to certain people and you say, I just got this free ticket to Europe and I'm going. They say, what? Huh? What do you mean you're going to go? Are you insane? They think you're crazy, in fact. Vis-a-vis your relationship, you are crazy. You think that you can go to Europe without even just tell somebody that you're married to that you're going to Europe. Now, I'll use this example that just popped up. A student of mine got a free trip to Europe.

[10:38]

Not just free airfare, but all expense paid trip to Europe. You got that? Because he was in this relationship with me called not a unilateral relationship, but bilateral, he came and he told me that he got this free ticket, all expense paid trip, and also to go with some very nice people, too, who were paying for it. How lovely. And I thought, how lovely. But he told me that. And I said, well, give me some, let me think about it, I said. And later the day, you know, I said, and during the day I thought about it, and I thought that it really would be a big mistake for him to go. Of course it would be wonderful just to go to Europe, but I happened to know something about this guy's life. And given his life, for him to go to Europe would have been, I believe, a big mistake. must think it would have been harmful.

[11:39]

Not just being irritable. What would have happened if he went was this guy was really irritable and upset because he had a big job to do, and he was always behind, and he was always bitching about how much work he had to do. Not always bitching, just often. So this trick comes up. And it just so happens that if he didn't go on that trip with these people who were inviting him, his life would have become quite a bit more simpler because some of the people inviting him were leaving where people took a lot of his time. So he would have been able to catch up on his work during his vacation time. Catch up somewhat on his work. Not only that, but if he went away, his work would accumulate much more while he was gone Plus, when he'd get back from the trip, it just happened that this huge, big, new wave of work would come, which he would need to prepare for before and during the trip time.

[12:46]

It would have been a big, sad thing for him, a big, sad thing for the temple, and he probably would have had a terrible time worrying the whole time he was over there. And I said to him, I explained all this to him somewhat, how horrible it would be if he went and did this nice thing. And he actually got quite irritated with me for saying that. And I felt terrible just to hear this wonderful opportunity. And here's this guy coming in and saying, no, it's really seemed to be a big mistake to go. And I don't want you to do this. And what I was afraid of, this connects to what you were doing, what I said to you, Matt, Matt, before you left. What I was afraid of is that he wouldn't go just because I said I didn't want him to and I thought it was a mistake. That's what I don't want. Because, again, that gets to be unilateral, like when I'm saying what you should do.

[13:47]

But actually, he got it. He actually saw, oh, yeah, this would look, I would really be sorry if I went on this wonderful trip if I, you know. And he stayed, got caught up in his work, and was very happy. It was very nice. But he did get irritated when I said I didn't like it. Now, he could have just not told me. You did have a period of perfunctory nose-bentedness that he went through until he finally was able to step back? In this case, yes. He got his nose bent, and so did I. But done it, OK. I mean, you're describing things like .. What did you say? That you're describing teen situations all the time and your skillful handling of it, but there's nothing you can do to prevent the teen or the student from having a period of not understanding how you arrived at your . And so finally they come to understand.

[14:50]

Yeah, and sometimes, another way it goes sometimes, this is very important, is sometimes they hear my thing. And they say, I hear what you say, and I'm still going to do it. And then I have to say to them, you will not be, if you hear the expression, excommunicated from this relationship by not doing what I asked you to do. You will not. You have not violated the intimacy of our relationship just because you didn't do what I said I'd want you to do. The violation of the relationship of intimacy is not to come and talk in the first place. That's the violation. Or to come and talk in such a way that there's no room for the person to say anything. That's the violation. The intimacy is not that the student or the teenager is under my control and they do what I say. The relationship is that they come and tell me. And this person that I'm talking about, and teenagers often, don't come and tell their parents or their teachers because they think if the parent or teacher disagrees that they won't be able to do what they wanted to do.

[15:56]

But I want the student, I want the spouse, I want the lover, I want the child who's done this. If they still think that it's best to do it, I want them to do what I don't want them to do. And that's a key factor in intimacy. People don't even know how much they want to do something until they come and tell the person they're intimate with that they want to do them, and the person disagrees. Then they finally find out, oh, now I see that I really do want to do this, thank you. And they do want to do it, and sometimes you're wrong, and you see it, and sometimes you're wrong, and you don't see it, and sometimes you're wrong, and they go do it, and they come back to you, and they have grown tremendously Partly because you're alone. But the real reason why they grow is because they came to you, said what they wanted to do, and not told you what they wanted to do, because they tell you.

[17:01]

You don't necessarily say anything. They tell you what they want to do. They don't tell you what they're going to do. They give you a chance to say how you feel. You say what you feel. Then they become more clear about what they want to do, and you become more successful than they could have been if you hadn't disagreed with them. So you facilitate their success. But you have to have the relationship in the first place for them to come and talk to you. And the very person I talked to you about was a person who had a really hard time learning this intimacy thing. For years, he was my student. For 25 years, this guy was my student. This guy's older than me. Not much, of course, but he's older. And he was my student for 25 years. And for the first 10 years, he would come to me, and a lot of things he didn't even talk to me about, but he would come to me and say, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that. And I would say, for a long time, I just listened to it. Finally, I said, this is not a student-teacher relationship for you to tell me what you're doing.

[18:02]

This guy's a real good example. And the reason why I did that, because he had a father who, if he told his father what he wanted to do, and his father didn't agree, Either he had to not do it or get out of the house. If he wanted to do something and he did it and his father didn't agree, his father said, you're out of here. So he just learned, don't tell your father what you're going to do because if you want to do it and he doesn't agree, you're not going to be able to. But if you don't tell him and you do it, then he may say, I don't like that, but he doesn't kick you out of the house because you didn't tell him and then stand up to him. So I want the student to stand up to me And I want them to stand up to me. And I want to stand up to your student. And it's hard to stand up to a student when they've just won the lottery. And I say, give the money back. This is going to kill you. You can't handle this money. Give it back.

[19:02]

Don't give it to me. Give it back. Or give it to me. Anyway, this money is not for you. I don't want to say that. So was it your compassion, insight, I don't know what the word is, that he needed 10 years to develop trust and relaxation so that this could be bilateral with you because of the prior? So did you get forced that bilateral on him because of? if we took this time so that we could get there? Again, you can say, you can put it over on me that I've got the wisdom and compassion, but actually it's the relationship developed. Because like I say, a lot of people do not tell me what they're up to, and I just let them go. I don't say, you didn't tell me about that? So it's not so much that I have the wisdom to know that they don't want to hear about this if they're not ready for it.

[20:08]

It's that the relationship that we have is not making me into a certain kind of a person for them. And after I'm with somebody for 10 years, our relationship comes to a point such that the person finally starts to articulate the way they want to practice. For example, they enter into a training program, and they're ready for it. And so it's more like the relationship guides me Because again, I do not mind that some people don't talk to me about what they're doing because they have not said that they wanted to. So it was actually not so much just my wisdom, but it was the wisdom of our relationship that gradually developed enough trust that he could tell me about his background and I could understand his history and gradually be ready for the time when he would be able to do that. Just like this morning when I was talking about working with your own body, you get intimate with it, you enter into a dialogue with your own body, sometimes you need a rest from that intensity.

[21:13]

We also need a rest from each other's intensity sometimes, and that's part of also developing a relationship, just working it out. It seems that in the relationship with your student, in the evolution that happened, you actually extended bilateral. that you said, what about the student-teacher relationship? This is what I think about it. What do you think about it? I'm seeing it as an evolution, and I think you just alluded to this, that you grew in a way in that relationship that... And what I'm hearing in this thing about adolescence is that it's got to be... It's really here. I've got to extend myself. I have to take the chance and be vulnerable. That's part of it too, yeah. But in some cases... How would I say? In some cases, I might be willing to be vulnerable, but I feel like my vulnerability might be overwhelming to somebody else and be intrusive.

[22:19]

In other words, I might be willing to say, you know, I would have liked it if you consulted with me about such and such. And it kind of hurt me that you didn't. But some people aren't even ready to hear that. So I have to wait for that. But I think what you're saying is the key factor is that both sides of the relationship are evolving about what the relationship is, what the partners are ready for, and what the relationship can hold. So another way to talk about this is building a container together. going to Tainter together. And I say together, again, partly because of my grandson. He hadn't done it lately. When he was about two, he would come up to me and he would reach out for my hand, take my hand, and he would say, let's do X together. And when he said together, I just, that's what it was. You know? Do it together, you know. So let's build a container for our relationship.

[23:23]

Let's develop some understandings about our relationship together. And the teacher says it in that way. It's very disarming. And the student says it that way. It's very disarming. It relaxes you when somebody really says, somehow they're really trying that word out. The magic of together. So I've evolved with that person, I evolved in my relationship with him. And he evolved and our relationship evolved and in fact these relationships are evolving. And so my relationship with you is evolving by telling you this. And so now the question is for you to think about whether you want to tell me or Nancy or We're a genie if you're going to do something other than sort of, you know, what everybody... When we're sitting together in the room, you don't have to tell us too much because we can see each other.

[24:24]

But if you're doing something else, you might want to tell somebody, just as an experiment in what it's like to practice intimate work together, or to practice together in such a way that we're not so much trying to make certain things happen here, because certain things will happen. But rather we're trying to develop intimacy here. And can you relax? And that's part of the testing thing. Can you go and talk to somebody about what you're going to do and be relaxed? And sometimes you may think that you could do this and be relaxed, and then when you go and talk you find some tension. And then you might find out, well, what is it? Is there some reason I don't feel like I could relax and tell somebody this? What would help you relax in telling someone something you're going to do? And someone might say, well, if I just follow all the forms perfectly and never miss any periods, then I won't have to tell anybody anything.

[25:32]

And then you're using the forms, but you notice you're using the forms because you're so tense about sharing, not using the forms. So in some ways, people who don't follow the forms in a more literal way, sometimes develop more intimacy because they have lots of opportunities to discuss the variations on the theme. But some people also don't follow the form or the practice literally, and they don't talk about it. So in the cases of following it, Whatever form it is, following it perfectly so you don't have to talk to anybody doesn't develop intimacy. And not following it but not talking to anybody about how you're not following it doesn't develop intimacy. So either way, the point is that we do these forms to test to see, are you relaxed and playful with the forms? If you're doing them, if you're really into the forms, then it's very likely that, you know, still you'd be tense about them, about doing them perfectly. If you're not doing it perfectly, are you relaxed about that and willing to get feedback on how you're not doing it?

[26:42]

Either way, you can test to see if there's some stiffness or holding around the forms. But without the forms, you could think that you're being intimate and so forth and playful and relaxed and creative. But it could just be a dream of that. The forms give you a way to test it. And sometimes you think, yeah, I can talk to so-and-so about it. You go, let's talk to somebody. And you say what you think you're doing, and they give you a response, and suddenly you feel infuriated. Where'd that come from? How dare you, blah, blah. These things could happen. You finally find out, oh, there was a lot more tension in the situation than I realized. until I said what I was thinking of doing and got that feedback. And then I found out, boy, I really thought this was a good idea. And I didn't realize it until this person said, I don't think that's a good idea. I thought it was just kind of a relaxed opinion item.

[27:46]

Now I find out I was holding on. John, I needed to ask permission to leave the group to begin to prepare the dinner. I don't want to, but I'm afraid that if I don't, there'll be some unhappy people here. So you think it's a good idea to go cook dinner? Unfortunately, I do. I support you to go .. I appreciate you bringing it up. Not everybody knows. I appreciate that. And as a reward for your bilateral about this, we'll stop talking and we won't miss anything. I bet you. Yeah, because it has been .. And then this whole note here, and then We had a new person who's joined it.

[28:48]

His name is Joe. Where is he? Joe, you look familiar, Joe. I've seen you or done sessions with you in Chicago. Thank you. Well, welcome. Welcome, Joe. Where'd you come from today? Baseball game. No, but I mean, you came from Cleveland. And you went to a Cleveland baseball game? Oh, yeah. I played in Salt Lake. Oh, okay. Well, this is Joe. Hello. Well, why don't you go, John, and maybe we'll say a little bit more. OK. And very now, do I bring up the day, because it is getting close to the end. What time is it? 6. Okay, we could go sit for a while before dinner, unless there's something that you really need to talk about or want to talk about now. Yes, what you're learning again?

[29:50]

On the form of leaving. At the beginning of walking meditation, we may leave without. That's the usual, but we haven't agreed on that before. The usual form, the usual time of leaving is at the beginning of Kiwi, or at the end of the period of Zazen that doesn't have Kiwi at another time, or after service. It's after service we leave sometimes. In this particular schedule, I think the only time we are leaving is after services or at night. Right? No, actually, if we go sit now for a while, then we'll sit and we'll just end the period of meditation and we'll all leave. Otherwise, our time to leave is the beginning of keeping. Then the usual time to come back is at the end of keeping.

[30:52]

But, you know, just as an exercise, which we don't usually do, what we usually do is that if someone had to leave some other time, they often tell the ino, which is the person who's basically in Zen all the time, taking care of the situation. They tell that person because the teacher may be out doing interviews or something. But for this retreat, if I'm sitting there, you could tell me if you had to leave, just as an exercise, to see if you could come over and do that. But if I'm not in the room, maybe you could tell Jeannie, or what do you think? Should we just say Jeannie? Should we say Jenny? I'll respond, Jeannie. We can say Jenny for this retreat, right? For this retreat, if I'm not in the room, call Jenny. If I'm in the room, you can just experiment coming and telling me.

[31:55]

But you don't need to tell me if you're leading with the whole group or if you're leading with the beginning of walking meditation. However, if you want to, you can try it. But it's retreat, just for, you know, give it a try. And also I think if someone was late for, usually if someone's late for a period, I guess the Zen Center style is you probably wouldn't come in if you were late, generally. But we have, at Zen Center, if they have to sit outside, if they're But we don't have a place to sit outside here. So what should we do here? This is an example of developing a forum. If you're late, what shall we do? Yes. There actually are chairs at a little lobby there. And even where we could even put a chair or two outside, it's not raining. I mean, they could sit outside to set up if they're late. Well, at Tassajara, for example, we can't. All of our centers are . If people are late, it's a place to sit right outside on the zen door. So that's where they usually sit.

[32:57]

They usually don't come in. But they are. So if we were looking for them, we could find them either in the zendo or outside the zendo. And if they were someplace else, then they would probably leave us a note or something if we didn't know where they were. Because we kind of like keeping track on each other. It's kind of like that's the aspect of it, too. So for this situation, how about just if you're late, sit in one of the chairs outside. We've got some chairs outside for people who are late. If you have to leave early for some reason, tell me or Jenny. How's that? And when you tell me, I might say, I will talk with you about it. Quiet talk. you know, where there's really a good idea. It's possible. So be ready for it. I don't know if Jenny would do that, but I would. So coming back from that, well, I think let's see.

[33:59]

I think maybe I'll talk to Nancy about whether, if you come for an interview, whether you would wait here until the next period, or whether you go back and wait outside the room. We can work that out. maybe Jenny and Nancy and I can figure out how to handle that. Because at Zen Center also, we try not to have people coming into the Zen Belt during periods, but have some kind of place where they can wait until next period. So we'll work that out and tell you, okay? I'm going to call you after I have a chance to answer. No, we usually say, if you come in at the beginning of kini, or the end of kini. So if you were out, let's say you were late for a period, and you sat outside during that period, and then kini started, the walking meditation started, you could come in at the beginning. So people would leave at the beginning, and people could re-enter at the beginning. Or you could re-enter at the beginning. Does that make sense?

[35:16]

But don't re-enter halfway through the walking meditation or halfway through the period of the sitting. Does that make sense? Let's try that. Sally? We have the sitting meditation, the walking meditation. So if I want to leave after the walking meditation, Simply because I just, my back hurts and I want to go lay down. Yes, yes. For the second half. The second half? No, for the next period you mean? Yes, for that next period of sitting. Yes, yes. Is that something that I should come to you in general about? That would be an example of an opportunity to develop intimacy. We can agree. The point is, if this isn't so that you're a good girl, Actually, really, it is so you can be a good girl.

[36:21]

It's not that you're a good girl if you stay. It's that you want to develop intimacy with you as a chance. So we could say that, and I think generally that would be a way to do it. If you were going to miss a period, you would tell me. So then we know that you're going to rest. It's no big deal, you know, but it's It's not so much... It's just that you're sharing your decisions about your practice. Obviously, you cared enough to come here. This is an important weekend, a week for you. So you're making the effort to do this. This is kind of a significant event, so let's take really good care of it. And also, it's an opportunity to not take care of it unilaterally, because we're not doing this unilaterally. We're doing this together. This is a communal practice. It's not a... isolated individual activity. So that's a good example. We could agree on that, that if you're going to miss a period, either not come in the first place or leave in the middle of a series of meditations with me or Jenny.

[37:26]

You can do that. You can see how that feels and notice. And I can see how it feels too. And you probably know it should feel something. Because it's kind of an intimate thing to do, to tell somebody that you're tired, that you have pain. It's your sharing your life. It's part of what it's like to live with somebody closely. And the forum is an opportunity to do it in a way that kind of is a good example. Yes, Joe and Len? Pardon? What? Right now? Yeah. So I think that maybe that's a good time for people to go, is when you have a strong feeling about it. Even a medium-sized thing. But again, I think telling me that is like, you know, I appreciate that. Thank you. Please go and take care of it.

[38:27]

Anybody else that wants to go? And I forget this often, you know. Sometimes during these long meetings, sometimes our discussions go on for a long time, do not feel trapped in the room. If you have to go to the toilet during a long discussion, or even during meditation, if you need to go to the bathroom, please go. Take care of that. But I'm not suggesting you tell us the reason. And we do that in Zen. If someone leaves a Zen do during a period, They try. They understand. We would like them to tell us the reason. Can you tell them why don't you think? You can work. You can have an understanding. That could be our understanding. There's a treat. This means... And then we have this, and then we have this one. This one's here, which means I think I'm going to fall off. They can have hands like that. They're very... They're traditional Japanese.

[39:31]

Definitely not. Definitely not. They're not traditional Japanese. I'm talking about creating forms in the West to develop intimacy. It won't be the same. The forms that are perfect in this culture are how we're sharing our practice together. But independently, they If they leave the zenda, they usually would tell the person, the people who are supposed to be taking care of the meditation hall, they usually would tell the person while they're leaving if it's in the middle of a period. Just so that they know, you know, this person is having a heart attack. Are they choking their head? Are they going to vomit? You know, what is it? Are they angry? You know? Sometimes, you know, there's a lot of possibilities, but just a brief comment to the person who's in charge of the situation was responsible to know what's going on, it just makes all the difference, and it develops intimacy. It calms the community down.

[40:32]

And everybody can tell. Almost everybody can tell. They hear the person leaving, or they see the person on the corner of the aisle leaving, and they notice that the person stops and tells somebody, and they relax. The person goes out, and they notice they didn't tell anyone. A lot of people know they left and you didn't tell anyone. And then a lot of people, like, feel responsible to worry, distract. If you stop and tell that one person, a lot of people, like... And if you don't stop and tell the person, if they don't see you do that, they also know that the person who's responsible might go and find out. So that basically not everybody has to be taking care of the room. Most people can just concentrate on their meditation and don't have to worry about the decoys and companies because somebody has that to be their job. And we also understand, we've agreed upon keeping that person informed. So if we don't do it, that person also feels supported to ask what's going on if the person's not doing it the usual way. So in this way, again, the point of these is not to control the people, but to develop intimacy.

[41:36]

And I think it does. And the relaxants could be, for some people, What I'm going through is not important enough. Exactly, that could be it. But a lot of people say to me, a lot of people I'm training as priests, they say, I don't want to bother you. And I say, why don't you earn the side of bothering me? Tell me what you think would be too much and see if I ever think it is. The problem is that we often think about the things we don't really mind telling and we don't think they're a bother and the things we really need to tell but we don't want to tell. We think they're a bother. We play various tricks like that on ourselves and think that somebody else will be tricked too. But really nobody else is going to be tricked but you, probably. It's not really to bother once we agree on the form. Once you sign up for it, it's not to bother. Again, once you sign up for it, you feel like it's a bother one way or another, then it takes you back to how you relax about this.

[42:38]

And when you find you're not relaxed, then the form helps you get in touch with your attention. And then you find a different way of doing the form that's more relaxed and more playful. So we can actually get to be quite playful about saying things like, well, I'm feeling tired. You're in a playful way. Even though you're tired, you can still be playful and creative. You don't have to be ashamed that you're tired. You don't have to be ashamed that you need to rest. You can joyfully, playfully say, I feel real tired. I want to take a nap, Daddy. Yes? I think it's now about the form of leaving the room. So when we're all leaving the room on schedule, it was changed to save time to not make a formal gas show. So I'm just not quite sure what's changed.

[43:41]

Okay, well, let's talk about that. So I think actually that, in a sense, is... What you did before you were like, when everybody was ready, everybody did it. Gosh, you joined palms and bowed together. Is that right? Mm-hmm. And everybody left. Getting out the door, I think, is the part that changed. Yeah, I guess maybe I did something different from what you usually do by going to bow to the altar. Is that right? No, no, it's when people are going out the back door. After you're gone, people are filing out. One by one, people have been turning and making a big-off show toward the room. One by one. So that was what we tried to symbolize. Oh, so we change that during this time? Sure. Yeah. At Zen Center in San Francisco, they just walk straight out. And also in Japan, they just walk straight out. They don't turn around and bow back into the room. So we're walking straight out? They just walk straight out. Outward?

[44:41]

No, you just walk. You don't bow. Just walk out. When you enter the space, you bow. When you leave, you just walk out. And if you want to have a form... for walking out. Although you lost one, I'm going to give you another one. And the point is that if you leave on the, again, at Zen Center, we usually leave on the right side of the door and step out with our right foot. When we enter the room, we enter on the left side of the door, and we enter with our left foot. So we could have that form to replace. So the usual way is we step in the left side of the door, step into the room on the left side of the door, with our left foot, and step inside into a standing bow with palms joined. When we leave, we step out on the right side of the door, which is actually the left side of the door when you're entering, step out with our right foot and just walk out.

[45:51]

The door here, if we used that side of the door, we'd be kind of off in the corners of the room rather than coming to the room. Might want to use the other side. Another possibility in this... What are you saying? There's two doors. Yeah, the one that closed the farther door, and it would be more crowded, so there would be the one door that has more space. It's the mirror image, though, that you're describing. Is it double the door? It's a double door. It has a thing coming down the middle, right? Mm-hmm. So just to tell you that there's another possibility would be whichever side of the room, you can enter on either side of the door, but whichever side you enter in, you step in with the foot or step out with the foot, which is in the same side of the door. So if you enter on the left side, you step in with the left foot. If you leave on the left side, you step out with the left foot. If you enter with the right side, you step in with the right foot. If you leave on the right side, you step out with the right foot. You do it that way too.

[46:54]

The point is you just set up a form. It's not like more holy to do one or the other, but that's the way we usually do it. So we can have that form. For this retreat, you can leave on either side of the door and you can enter on either side of the door. But if you enter on the left side, step in with the left side. If you enter on the right side, step in with the right foot. And when you leave, same way. If you leave on the left side, step out with the left. If you leave on the right side, step out with the right foot. In entering, bow, join palms and bow, leaving, you just walk out. That can be the form. And it's a form, and it takes somebody to be mindful in order for it to happen. And if it doesn't happen, everyone will be watching. However, you do not have to help people that you're thinking of doing unmindfully before you do, because when you're not mindful, you don't know you're not being mindful, so you can't say anything.

[47:55]

That's one of the disadvantages of being mindful is you can't talk to people about it. Being un-fine. Yes? So if you're on the left side and you exit on the right side, you're actually going in the same way as the last person. That's right. That's correct. And then the other way would be the same. You could enter on the right side and leave on the left. You'd be leaving on the same side. You'd be the same person. the same physical area would accommodate those two different ways of doing things. It's amazing how this stuff works out. Yes, what's your name? Ken. Ken. And why is it important that we do this? Generally speaking, the point of all these forms, the point of all these forms is to realize peace and harmony in this world. That's the point of the whole practice. That's the basic motive. And forms are ways to verify and or test and find out that you do not have intimacy.

[49:02]

Forms are to help you develop intimacy and relaxation of relaxation and intimacy and harmony. That's the point of all this. That's the point of it. Yes? What we're setting up now is a relatively arbitrary way of doing it. It's somewhat arbitrary, yeah. Some of these things you could make a case for. A lot of stuff is arbitrary. Some of the things, for example, sitting up straight is somewhat arbitrary. We could lean to the right or left, but there's some good reasons for sitting up straight in this kind of posture. But we could also practice other forms. about right foot, left foot, as I recall. I'm not sure if he uses the exact. But you could say he said that arbitrarily, too. So for us now, you could say, we're not being arbitrary. We're just being traditional. It was arbitrary. But you look at Chinese culture when it develops certain forms around building and so on, the way to build this building, there's some people say there's something that's not arbitrary about a beautiful building.

[50:12]

You know, that beauty is not totally arbitrary. There's something like the way that they built some of those temples that they look like trees, you know. If you look at Asian architecture and the forest, it just really can be a conversion experience to reality by looking at the way certain people fill buildings in certain relationship to mountains and rivers and trees. And then the way that they relate to these spaces You could say it wasn't necessarily arbitrary the way they move in these spaces. You could say it's actually a beautiful ritual about why they use the spaces this way. But still, you could do them other ways, too, that would be just as beautiful. So to some extent, it's arbitrary. But in another sense, there are always conditions for setting these forms up. But once they're set up, then you can also say they're not traditional. But the point of building beautiful buildings I would say the Buddhist tradition is not to make some people have nice housing and then hate other people who don't have such nice housing.

[51:16]

The point of all these buildings and all these nice practices is to make people more able to promote well-being among the trees and the rivers and the people and the frogs and the mountain lions. That's the point of it. And so we're always checking these practices with that criteria. And that's why I have this. Are we trusting? Are we compassionate? Are we relaxed? Are we playful? Are we creative? Do we understand? The answer often is, well, we don't yet, but at least we know these forms show us that we're not relaxed. If we're not relaxed, then we have to be more compassionate so we can be relaxed. So I'm just saying that these forms are necessary in order to really bring this process of liberation into reality, into conventional world. That's the point of these forms. And if you have some feeling that you'd like to be playful and creative with some of these forms, you're welcome to do so. And we can change them.

[52:18]

They don't have to stay the same. And that's part of what's going to happen in the West is we're going to change some forms. But some of them are still pretty useful. So is the benefit of creating the form and following it is that you're mindful about what you're doing? Not so much the form itself, except perhaps, maybe in the case of sitting, it's physical sense to do it that way. But in terms of the way we go in and out of the zendo, the real point is to be mindful about how you're doing it, not so much. In a way, I would say that mindfulness is a subsidiary point of the forms. Because in order to practice compassion, you have to practice mindfulness. So mindfulness is necessary, but it's not just mindfulness. It's also mindfulness and kindness and relaxation.

[53:21]

But it turns out that mindfulness does tend to promote all these other practices because In order to apply any of these practices to what's happening, you need to be mindful. So mindfulness is a key ingredient. But mindfulness itself is not really the point of Buddhism. Mindfulness is necessary in order to realize the point of Buddhism, which is freedom and peace. Because you can be mindful and do something cruel. It's possible to mindfully harm someone. However, in order to be kind to people, you also have to be mindful. And you also don't need to be mindful to be cruel. You can be cruel blindly. But in order to be completely, profoundly, filthful and compassionate, to reach the full level of compassion and wisdom, we need mindfulness. Mindfulness is not the main point. The main point is kindness. Because you can go to some places where everybody's really mindful. I think they're done with the way, and they all do it that way, but there's a feeling of tension. and superiority, or even a degrading attitude towards other beings, even though everybody's mindful.

[54:30]

So mindfulness isn't the ultimate point. It's just an absolutely necessary ingredient in the practice. We must be mindful. We must be concentrated. And we must be wise. But it's not just to be wise and mindful and all that stuff. It's so that we will realize peace and harmony. I have a quick procedure question. After sitting, did we wait for our neighbors to gash up together because people were trying to bobbing up and down at separate times? And what would you put back? Well, let me just say this and see if this is in accord with what you've been doing in this group, OK? Usually, there's two ways. One way is if you get up from sitting, you kind of tidy up your cushion again.

[55:36]

If it's a round one, you sort of fluff it up. And you bow to your place and bow away. And then you wait for the other people to finish, and we all bow together and start to either leave or to walk in meditation. How's that? Is that what you're doing? What was the first part? Was it before you get up? When the bell rings. When the bell rings, we join our palms and bow. When the bell rings, we just bow right away. Some people will do it faster than others. You don't have to wait for the other people. It's a bell ring thing, and some people go... And some people go, oh, thanks. So we've been working on that, but I think at this point, we'll just let that go and start talking about it. And then, okay, so... Then people turn around at various speeds.

[56:39]

Now, some monasteries, they try to get everybody to turn around kind of the same speed. But I would suggest for now to turn around, pluck your cushion, stand up, bow to your place, turn clockwise and bow away. Is that what you're doing? And then we wait until everybody's finished. And then when everybody's finished, we bow together. And then we either leave or do a walking meditation. Right? If someone's legs do fall three foot more, would you stand up? We would just take your time. If your legs fall asleep, just stay at your place and uncross your legs and let them go. Let the numbness go away before you try to stand up. We can kind of tell that. It's the same thing that's going on with walking meditation. You don't have to join walking meditation until you feel okay.

[57:41]

So that's upon looking at me.

[57:42]

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