you learn to see things with the eye of sameness. Of course you can still see things with the eye of difference. This is normal human functioning. But you learn to see an ounce or a pound as not light and a ton as not heavy. Or, and the Buddha taught this way back when, you learn to see repulsive things as not repulsive. And you learn to see not repulsive things as repulsive. You learn to do that, not to deny the fact that you think something's repulsive or attractive, but to develop this equanimous mind, this great mind, which goes so nicely with the joyful mind.

[01:03]

So you have no preference for joyful mind when you have joyful mind. So you have no attachment to joyful mind. And also you have no attachment to depressed mind, or no aversion to depressed mind. There's a great mind in the midst of a depressed mind, and there's a great mind in the midst of the joyful mind. Do not be attracted or carried away by the sounds of spring. Do not take pleasure at a spring garden. When you see autumn colors, do not have the mind of enjoying autumn colors. You should allow the four seasons to advance in one viewing, and see an ounce and a pound with the eye of sameness." So, in other words, one interpretation of spring is compliments, another interpretation of autumn is insults.

[02:13]

But anyway, another way he talks about it in other places is, which I can identify with, is you see the autumn colors, like around here, and they're probably really beautiful in autumn. And like, you know, sometimes, where I grew up in Minnesota, it was very beautiful in autumn with the colors. Sometimes, recently I was there, I don't know how long ago it was, but anyway, I was there, and... It was actually two different years I was there in the autumn. I had been away, and I saw autumn again. And I was there, and all the trees were at the perfect height of the colors, but it was raining. And I thought, if the sun was out, these colors would be much more vivid. And I kind of wanted the sun to come out. This is wanting a little more.

[03:18]

Let's have a little bit more sunlight on this leaf here. And then a year later, a couple years later, I went back to also about that same time, and there were like, I was there for about a week, and there were about six days in a row of high, clear, sunny skies, and every day was just totally, like almost painfully beautiful. And I thought after six days, I think, I said, you know, I think I've had enough. And I think if the sun went away and it was overcast, I think I could like accept, you know, the loss of color. And then the sun went away and it was overcast and I said, I still want the sun back. Yeah. So that's an ordinary mind that we have easily. So the great mind is actually to develop, find a mind in the midst of the autumn colors or the spring colors that's kind of like, thank you very much.

[04:25]

Thank you very much. Not like, could we have a little bit more light on this week? Could you have a wind like turn the backsides of them now? You know, this kind of stuff. Sometimes that stuff happens, you know? It's like gorgeous, and then the wind blows, and it gets gorgeous another way, and then it stops, and it goes back. Sometimes it's just unbelievably wonderful, but then we still sort of like go... still grasp the more. And then sometimes it's terrible. Sometimes it's really terrible. And then we want to get rid of it. So this great mind is not like that. And then he said in a kind of interesting way, Dogen says, he's speaking of a certain monk who was the head cook. And he said, had the tenzo at Mount Jia not studied the word great, he would not have been able to awaken the elder foo.

[05:34]

by being unable to stop laughing at him. So there's a story about this Zen monk who was at Tenzo and And he came to a Dharma talk like this one, like Matt's coming to the Dharma talk. And this guy was giving his talk on some subtle aspects of Buddhist philosophy. And the tenzo started laughing and says here, if he hadn't studied the word great, he would not have been able to awaken this lecturer. by being unable to stop laughing. In other words, he started laughing and he couldn't stop. You realize he shouldn't be, not supposed to be laughing, sort of at the lecturer. But he couldn't stop, you know.

[06:42]

He couldn't stop. He knew it wasn't very polite, but he just, because he had studied the word great, because he had studied the word great, or put it this way, if he hadn't studied the word great, he would not have been able to help this guy by laughing at him. After the talk, the lecturer asked the tenzo to come and said, you know, during this talk you laughed, do you have some criticism to make of me? And the tenzo says, well, it wasn't that you were wrong about what you were saying, it's just that obviously you didn't know what you're talking about. You know? And the lecturer said, thank you very much, and the lecturer stopped lecturing and, you know, really started to practice. And and lived happily ever after. He stopped wasting his time telling people what Buddhism was about without knowing anything himself. He became a real practitioner because the tenzo laughed at him.

[07:43]

The tenzo didn't laugh at him on purpose. The tenzo just spontaneously laughed at him because the tenzo had studied the word great. So part of what is being suggested, you study, just study the word great, or study the word magnanimous. Study it. Think about it. And then you'll be able to spontaneously help people. And then he goes on to say, if the Zen master Pagwe had not understood the word great, he would not have blown the unfit firewood three times. Did I say unfit? Unlit firewood three times. So that refers to a story about this other great Zen master. His name is Guishan. And he's also called Ta Gui, which means great Gui.

[08:47]

And his teacher was Bai Zhang, another great Zen master. And I think one version of the story is his teacher says, would you bring me some firewood? Or bring me some fire or something like that? And he brings him a piece of wood, an unlit piece of wood. And the teacher said, I said to bring me a torch or a burning piece of wood. And then the student took the piece of wood and went, rubbed it, rubbed it, and then blew on it, and gave it to the teacher. And the teacher said, good. What? What did that mean? It means that he had an enlightened understanding of the interaction. The teacher proved his understanding. the teacher asked for something, the student gave him something apparently different, the teacher said, I didn't ask for this, and then the student verified that actually he did understand what the teacher said and was giving him what the teacher really wanted, enlightenment.

[10:00]

And he could do this because he understood the word great. Now, I can explain this to you if you want, but you'd probably get it if I didn't. Great. And then it said, if the priest Dung Shan had not known the word great, he would not have taught the monk by saying three pounds of hemp. There's another story where a monk says, what's Buddha? And he says, three pounds of hemp. And the monk woke up. So part of what he's saying here is if you don't study the word and write the word and understand the word and know the word great, if you don't think about this great mind, then you might not be able to manifest the wonder-working function of Buddha.

[11:13]

just like the story I told you about earlier, of Hakuin being falsely accused of a misdeed and being strongly vilified and punished, and he could manifest the Buddha's response to this insult by saying, is that so? And then he can verify that that was Buddha's response by when he was praised by saying, is that so? He could demonstrate this great mind, put this great mind into action in daily life. And these stories are about where these three monks could teach people and wake people up because they were tuned into this great mind. you should know that these great masters all studied the word great over hundreds of matters. They all brought forth the word, the great shout of freedom, expounded the great principle, penetrated the great matter, trained the great student, and in this way completed the one great matter.

[12:30]

So, There's more about this, but... Do you have any questions about this great mind? Yes. When you talked about not enjoying spring and colors, that sort of thing, is there, or maybe you could describe for me the difference between what the great mind would try to achieve and what a passionless approach to life might give. Well, actually, when I read that part about not enjoying, it said not take pleasure at spring, at a spring garden, I kind of flinched at that point, too. Again, I don't think it's that you don't experience pleasure when something happens, but more that when you do experience pleasure, You're unmoved by it.

[13:35]

You're not carried away by it. You don't ask for more than you've got. I think that's what he means by don't take pleasure. Don't look for pleasure in the spring garden. Don't go to the spring garden to get pleasure. Again, that's like trying to get an ice cream cone. In fact, if you do go out of your house and go in the spring garden, and the sun's out, it probably will be pleasant. But this constant pursuit of pleasure is basically a rat race. But to go into the garden and have a pleasant sensation and just let it go at that, that's just mind. Enjoy it, but be happy with what you got. Yeah, but enjoy it, yeah. Enjoy the life you've got. Enjoy the life you've got right now. He said four seasons, but he didn't mention winter and summer. The Japanese are particularly keen on spring and fall.

[14:41]

They totally freak out in the spring and the fall. The spring they freak out over the cherry blossoms. They just like... It's a big... It's a national... It's a national passion, the cherry blossoms. And part of Japanese culture is that part of the reason why they like the cherry blossoms is that they like the cherry blossoms and they also like the feeling of the sense of pain, knowing that the cherry blossoms are going to fall. So it's this intense, bittersweet experience in the spring. And in the fall, they have these... they do their gardens in such a way that they get, they have these high, high colored things and they have these, Japanese maples get very red. In certain parts of Japan, especially Kyoto, where it's a little colder, get the most red. And they have, you know, people travel all over Japan to go to Kyoto to see the red maples. And there too you see this beautiful color and you know it's going to go.

[15:45]

So they particularly emphasize those two times as the most pleasurable environmental experiences for the whole nation. Yes, he's encouraging us not to cling to impermanent things, that's right, and not be carried away by them. And also don't be carried away by permanent negative things either. So when people are insulting you, don't be carried away by that. And when people are praising you, don't be carried away by that. When the beautiful springtime or beautiful fall, or ugly fall and ugly spring, don't be carried away by any of this stuff. Develop, and one way he's recommending is, think about great.

[16:50]

Like Ken told me that he's a law professor. He works in the legal profession and he also works in the legal education department. But I was just looking at him when he was sitting over there and I thought it would be good, I think it would be good, all day long while he's doing his legal work and his legal teaching, his law teaching, that he always thought of great. Great. In other words, not be carried away by the springtime of everybody saying, oh, you're such a great law professor, you're such a great administrator, you're running such a great program, you're the greatest, we're going to give you this award and give you this raise and blah, blah, blah. That might happen to him. But if he's thinking of great, when people say that kind of stuff to him, he may not be swayed. While people say, you know, you're blah, blah, and blah, blah, and then you know you.

[17:56]

And he's thinking of great. He trains himself on this great mind. So when people are insulting him, undermining him, you know, He's ready. He's cultivated the great mind. He's ready for this. So he's not swayed by this. Plus also, in law practice or in legal situations, it's taking sides big time. A lot of taking sides going on. So to be in a world where taking sides is such a big issue, to have this oceanic attitude would be very, very helpful. This would be a judge who could be just and merciful simultaneously." So I just, looking at him, I thought, meditating on great would be very good for somebody in that world. Not to mention, meditating on joyful mind, that I had the great joy

[19:01]

of serving people in implementing the law for the welfare of beings. Can you say something, Judith? Yes. Back to the sort of bipolarity and what you say is the opposite of joy being depression. What does the great mind think about depression? How does the great mind address depression? I think it would be inclusive. It would accept it. It would be immovable in the midst of it. And from that immovability and not running away from the depression, a great activity would emerge. So it isn't that the great mind really does anything, but it sets up the possibility of some great lively response to depression.

[20:03]

But most people who are depressed are, of course, it's very difficult not to be swayed by depression. But if you cannot be swayed by depression and be inclusive of it, I'm suggesting that it's possible that some vitality can reemerge in your life. Joy can reemerge. But the great mind really isn't doing these stories of these monks being able to do these amazing feats of enlightening people. That isn't really the great mind. It's that you can be that way because of cultivating a great mind and joyful mind. So the prevalence of depression in our time is because we aren't cultivating our faith. Well, it's partly because of that, and it's also partly because we're not cultivating joyful mind.

[21:06]

Our depression, I think, is to a great extent because we are so addicted to, you know, pleasure. So again, experiencing pleasure is fine, but this society is so strongly addicted to pleasure that I think that's one of the reasons why we're so depressed. A lot of people get depressed from eating a tremendous amount of sugar, or being very angry about, you know, not being happy, not getting pleasure. You thought of that? Depression is a disease. Yes. Much like diabetes is a disease, and other clinical diseases are a result of chemical imbalances. Yes, but chemical imbalances come from the way you use your body and mind. I can't say anything more about this right now.

[22:17]

Depression requires medical treatment as much as any other disease is based on... I'm not saying it doesn't require medical treatment. I'm not saying that. You can get medical treatment for depression... It's all right. I'm not opposing that. I'm not saying that someone who's depressed can't take antidepressants or shouldn't take antidepressants. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that whether you take antidepressants or not, most people will be depressed if they don't practice this great mind. Some people will be depressed to the extent that they would have to take antidepressants in order to get through the day. But depression is more widely prevalent in the society than just the people who need to take medication for it.

[23:32]

Other people are depressed too. We say clinically depressed, right? Well, I'll stick with my diabetes analogy. Some people are able to manage their diabetes without getting insulin. Others aren't. Yes. But if they're at a stage where they require insulin and they don't take it, they die. Yes. Very often the same thing happens with depression. Right. So to trivialize it is I... It's okay to me. To trivialize depression? Yeah. What did I say to trivialize depression? Psychically? Yeah. It's a result of boredom. You were discussing how someone from a family...

[24:34]

is bored and therefore depressed? Well, I would retract saying that depression is a result of one cause like boredom. But I will say that depression is a result of causes and conditions I will say that. But maybe I won't say that the cause of depression is boredom. I don't want to say that about anything, that anything is a result of one cause. So I retract that statement that depression is a result of boredom. But I would say in line with what you're saying, that in some cases it may be skillful for a depressed person to take some kind of medication, because my understanding is that depression is a — I agree with you — it is a psychophysical imbalance, or rather that because of a psychophysical imbalance people feel depressed.

[25:39]

I would agree with that. And some people are so imbalanced that the only way that they can imagine to get rebalanced is to take medication. And same with diabetes. I would agree. However, many other people do not feel they need to take antidepressants and don't, and they're depressed too. And I would suggest that both for the people who need to take antidepressants and the people who don't need to take antidepressants who are depressed, that the great mind and the joyful mind are medicine for them. They are medicine for a disease. I'm not saying these are not diseases. I think diabetes and depression are diseases. Buddhism is a medicine for diseases. Attaching to things that are lost is a disease. And sadness is a medicine for a disease.

[26:42]

Grief is a medicine for disease. So I agree these are diseases, and I don't mean to trivialize disease. I'm just suggesting that the great mind is a medicine for depression, and the joyful mind is a medicine for depression. But I'm not saying other kinds of medication medicines, or acupuncture, or massage, or exercise. When people are depressed, I often suggest that they do symmetrical activities, like swimming, walking, gardening, and things like that. Because when you do those activities, symmetrical activities, it tends to rebalance your brain chemistry. So if someone's depressed, I wouldn't suggest that they sit, actually, necessarily, because sometimes they need to actually move their muscles in certain ways to redistribute the chemicals in their brain to reestablish their chemical balance. Is that OK?

[27:49]

I just, I'm sorry, I just felt I had to, because recently we had a depressed Buddhist who committed suicide by jumping on the stairs. Yes. And I had just, and also the fact that depression affects women in a much, much harder way, or at least women are, allow themselves to be diabolized in a much higher way. Thank you for that. Can I just... I brought that up because I guess I disagree with posing depression as an opposition to joy. I think an opposition to joy is more apathy and not caring and not healing. And I would agree with a lot of the points that you made about it. That's why I brought that up.

[28:51]

Well, to me, apathy is pretty similar to depression. You said not feeling? Not feeling, not caring. It seems to me depressed people often don't care. Yeah, but I too have some problem with posing an illness as an opposite to seeking joy. Well, I didn't necessarily... As though you were not making the effort to seek joy and... Do you know anything? No, I don't, because anyway, I was saying that depression, clinical depression, is a line that people draw, and on one side of it they say it's clinical depression, and on the other side it's depression that most people feel when they're not joyful. So I guess people can feel, like, joyful, and then they can feel like, I guess you could say, what, neutral?

[29:56]

And then at what point do you start saying they're depressed? So I'm just saying that somebody asked me the opposite of joy, and I said depression. And you could say apathy seems somewhat opposite of joy also. With your example of too many sunny days and wanting to have rain as contrast to appreciate more the sunny days, And that way, I think that apathy is, there is something good about apathy because it is a ground from which we can see joy, we can experience joy. And I don't see the same goodness in depression. You know, the bipolarity of bitter and sweet, I think more appropriately would be joyful and apathetic.

[30:58]

Okay. You can say that's more appropriate. But when you said that there's something good about apathy, I thought, right. I thought, I agree. But then when you said you didn't see what was good about depression, then I thought, I don't agree. Well, I agree. I mean, I agree with that, too. But I think that in terms of the discussion... that I think it's very difficult for depressed people to see goodness in where they are and that they're there for a reason. Well, it is difficult. To see the dark side of our lives. Right. I just think there's more of a sensitivity around using that as an opposite. Right. Than something less... Right, but I'm kind of glad I did, because I'm talking about great mind.

[32:03]

And great mind does not shrink away from even depression. But great mind doesn't say depression is good. Great mind includes depression. We do get depressed. But it's possible, even in the valley of depression, with the aid of great mind, to do something helpful. That's what I'm proposing to you. And in order, when we're talking about joyful mind, I juxtapose joyful mind with depression. Maybe I should have done joyful mind with apathy, but in the realm of grateful mind, I'm suggesting to develop a mind so that if we ever were put into the condition of depression, we would have developed something that would help us even in depression. Because some people go into depression and stay there a long time. But I'm proposing something that could help you in depression if that happened to you by whatever causes and conditions that you were thrown into that.

[33:11]

Some people are going along fairly well, and suddenly they just go, boom, way down. And no one knows why. But they're suddenly in this very incredibly deep pit of depression. So I'm holding out this way of practicing in the worst possible situations of existence. I think that depression can call our attention to something that needs attention. I agree. Yes. This conversation, I'm saying as I hope to contribute to it, you also juxtaposed depression and addiction to pleasure. And I think maybe some of the reaction to depression, I could analogize it by talking about the word addiction. Because I think... And I can say this as a person who knows the life of addiction.

[34:15]

I mean, the clinical kind of addiction as opposed to the general addiction. And I think it was heard as trivializing the clinical to use the word in relation to the ordinary. My feeling is that using a word that has clinical weight to speak about our ordinary existence is to wake us up to the diseased quality of the ordinary. that this is not a small thing, these minor addictions to pleasure or these ordinary ways of experiencing depression that don't push us all the way to suicide or to needing medication or therapy, but that these are part of our life in as painful a way. And I really say that seriously.

[35:19]

I know the extremes of the addictions that I've experienced, but I don't think that that means that it's improper to think of addiction in what we ordinarily think of as less dramatic or less extreme. So I think sometimes the language traps us in a position and we don't know enough to buy into that trap that we can make some space. Let us all joyfully make one. Anything else anybody wants to bring up? I would like to make a request that at some point maybe we could discuss a little bit more about this because I had some questions about addictions in terms of

[36:25]

How much of it is karmic obstructions and what... I mean, if it is... No, I just think it would be an interesting conversation. Okay. Well, we can talk about Saturday. Do you remember? Which reminds me that I have not been adjusting posture during the sitting... But I could do that. And if anybody does not want me to adjust your posture, maybe you could tell Nancy, and then I won't adjust it. So maybe you could tell her before we sit up to lunch. Otherwise, I would offer you some postural check and adjustment. Anything else anybody wants to bring up this morning? Yes, what do you mean by that? I was just going to say, you can use that little tool to... What I usually do is I look at your body, and sometimes I run my hand on your spine to see how it feels, and then I make some suggestions, and my suggestions are basically what I would think would be a more intimate way for you to be with your body.

[37:45]

or a more engaging posture for you. It isn't exactly to straighten your posture, and I don't call it correcting posture, but it's more like a suggestion, like, try this posture for a while. Which might initially feel more challenging, but sometimes you might immediately find it to be more energetic and more intimate, more engaged. Other times you might feel like, oh, this isn't, I can't do this posture. And then, you know, maybe just for future reference that I suggested that. And sometimes people are just simply leaning forward or leaning to the side, and then I just pull them up to what looks like erect or balanced to me. And that sometimes is quite surprising to people. But at least you have the feedback. Again, for future reference. Yes? It's a really dumb question, but what is the stick for?

[38:46]

What's it called and what is it for? This stick is just called a stook. Is there something written on it? There's nothing written on it, like in English or anything. There's little pictures of little bird's eyes. It's bird's eye maple. And it's something that people sometimes carry when they lead a service. Now there's another kind of, there's some other kind of sticks, which I do have, which are called, you know, like, one of them has a hook on it, and that's for, like, hooking Buddhas and Bodhisattvas and bring them down in the room. That's a nice one, Jim. And other ones have a kind of shape on them which is kind of like, one theory is that the shape, some people think it looks like a cloud, and other people think it looks like a mushroom. And the mushroom idea is that is that these were symbols. You first find these symbols or these sticks with the shape, you find them in China.

[39:53]

And one of the theories is that they came from the shamanic cultures or shamanic practice places where they used mushrooms as part of their practice. And the mushrooms were a symbol of the priests or the shamans who used these mushrooms, the soma mushroom. That's another idea about where that shape came from. I have heard stories that in some monasteries, oh, go on, you're asleep, you know. Well, they also have sticks, you know, like this, where people, where that monitor, so to speak, goes around and whacks people who are asleep. But that's not a stick. Well, this stick could be useful. Uh-oh. But... I haven't been hitting people for about fifteen years. We used to use a stick at the same center quite a bit. We used to have like two people carrying the stick during periods and hitting people when they fell asleep.

[40:56]

Also, people couldn't ask for it, we would hit them. And then we switched from hitting them when they were asleep and didn't ask, to just hitting them when they were asking. And then we just stopped pretty much using the stick. Pretty much. I don't use it, but some people still use the stick. Some people like to get hit to help them kind of wake up. It's a little kind of massage. Hit up here. It feels kind of good if you do it right. Like they have these things and people do that. And you whack them. Sometimes you get lactic acid built up in your muscles, and it will release that and create some more comfort in your muscles. Like a trip to the chiropractor. Or the massage therapist. It's a good thing. But because of people having associations with being beat up and so on, we sort of stopped doing it anymore. easy to make this morning.

[42:02]

And I want to thank Nan and Judith for expressing themselves. Looks like it was not easy to do so, but it's probably better to get it out than to keep it to yourself, even though it might have been difficult. So I appreciate you expressing yourselves. Can I make a request? Yeah. It occurred to me before we came in that we could do cameing outside in the fire pit area for a little while after this lecture, if there's time. I don't even know if there's time before. Well, that'd be fine. You could do it for now until maybe the next 10 minutes or so. That'll work. Okay. Okay. And we can join and leave to go to the bathroom if we want to. I hope she pushes back and then if you'd like to go outside and walk in that kitchen.

[43:09]

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