Amy, and then Sally, and then Lynn. I just feel like I'm afraid like man is caught in that hell place. And I feel like when I'm in that hell place, for anybody to say anything to me, it feels like such an invasion. But I don't really feel I've been invited. or that necessarily any of us were invited by man to have this conversation about what happened. And although it affected all of us with that energy in the room, I feel it's kind of, she sort of has the most invested in it. So sort of out of respect for her health ways, I don't necessarily feel very comfortable having this conversation. I have some time to think about this on my own, which I don't want to come back to when I say it. which is not uncommon. I don't recognize the professors in my department when I see them in the gym either. My concern is that as a helping professional, and I imagine, I have this fantasy about you, having your office towards the end

[01:15]

constantly full of one person after the next, after the next, after the next, who comes to you for help. Whether it's help at the marriage ceremony, whether it's help at the funeral, or whether it's help because they or someone in their family has psychiatric issues. Had I come to you in November, I might be dead. Because standard non-medical approaches probably would not have worked. And I'm not depressed now. And I probably can't say that I'm chronically depressed, but I'm certainly seasonally depressed. And we had another medical experience that sort of parallels it, where when my second child was born after a C-section, second C-section, I said in kind of a sneaky way to my obstetrician, because I was hoping for vaginal birth.

[02:21]

And I said, well, you know, 100 years ago, C-section was not an option. What would happen? And she said, you would die. And I said, thank you very much. I'll take this up. But that, as I always had a discussion about the different, I mean, clinical depression is clinical depression is clinical depression, and you just can't draw happy faces on it and tell it to go away, and people die. And as a helper, I would hope that you would be able to recognize when a person's difficulties were beyond religious practice and stepped into the realm of medical practice. And that was what disturbed me. That was what gave me the courage to speak up. It's not because I'm not in any way, shape, manner, or form about making a scene about something like this publicly, but it just kind of coming up again and again and again.

[03:26]

And the first two times I said, I will take this up with her privately when I have an opportunity. But the third time, I had to say something. And I have taken a vow, lovelies many years ago, to speak for those who have no voice. And a very important goddess and Buddhist goddess in my life is Persephone. Persephone means She who speaks of disaster, that's one meaning. It's like Japanese. Ancient Greek has many different ways of translating it. It can also mean she who is willing to speak for those who are undergoing disaster. That's why I spoke up, not to make anybody uncomfortable and not to enter into a situation. But, furthermore, I will say my analysis of the situation is that although it was a dialogue and a bilateral, a bilateral discussion has a very different

[04:37]

feel, if you want to use that word, but it's such a fuzzy word, has a very different consistency when there is a huge differential of power, which there is between you and I. And to then in this venue, where that differential of power not only still exists, but is probably even larger now, considering that there's a whole room of people and me, rather than just you and I, I think was unfair. And I'm done. Well, I'm not saying no.

[06:10]

I'm just saying that Amy felt that it may not, maybe we don't have an unanimous permission to have this conversation. Is that kind of how you felt? So Amy kind of feels like, if we keep talking about this, maybe Ann's not really questioning. So that's something to be careful of. Another factor is that Ann said that she feels like it's kind of like, rather than her and me, it's like her and the group. So I think she feels kind of isolated or singled out or something. And so if we keep talking in this way, it may be, I think she's kind of saying that it's unfair to put her in a hot seat. I'm used to being in a hot seat, which is part of the reason why people feel I have more power, because I'm used to sitting in this place.

[07:13]

But she's not sure that it's fair for her to be in a hot seat. So I think it would be careful to put her in a hot seat unless she's asking to be in it. Well, in a sense, by daring to speak out, which is why he said, I did not. Sure, I put myself there. But I certainly did not intend to stay there. Right, so I don't think, you know, we can actually, you know, one of the ways you energetically take somebody off the hot seat is just agree that they're not in the hot seat, and we don't direct tension at that seat anymore. We actually can do it. Like I was sometimes talking to people in a group, and I noticed a person's having something, they seem to be withdrawing or something, and I say, is there anything I can do to help? And the person sometimes says, yes, stop making me the focus of this group event.

[08:18]

And I say, OK, focus off and go on to something else. And so it may be that for now, until further notice, we should just move on to something else. But if anybody else wants to be in the hot seat about anything, just start talking, and you're potentially going to be in the hot seat. Because when you start talking, I will pay attention to you, maybe, and then everybody else will pay attention to you and me. Like if anybody comes up here and starts dancing with me now, you'll be in the hot seat with me. Everybody wants to dance. My question was a change of subject. Because I know that last spring, or last winter, you did a retreat at Green Gulf, Tango and Meditation. And I've been dying to know more about that. And if that would be great, I don't know, if the group wants to change subject.

[09:20]

I'd love to hear more about that retreat. I want it to go so bad. Yes? I was thinking of Virginia, and then I also see Nancy has her hand raised. So can I call on them before I just go on? Sure, yeah. It's just a sequel. Yeah. I'd also like to express my desire that you talk about the third kind of wine. I will. I will. The grandmother wine. That's the big one. That's the one that's really... That's the amazing one. That's the one that... The other two, in some sense, they're great. And one of them, the great mind, is sort of what attracted me to Zen. And I'm trying to practice the great mind in the midst of this, right? But the grandmother mind is something I have a hard time understanding for years, and I'll tell you about why tomorrow. And Catherine's heard it before, so she's... I have to ask her if it's okay.

[10:22]

It's a practical question. Okay, so I will... It's really the grandmother mind that I'm most interested in, actually, especially how it relates to intimacy. So I will talk about that tomorrow, but I'd like to do it tomorrow, actually, because it's getting a nice big start. Okay? But I tend to, in some sense, spend the rest of the retreat on that one. It's... Well, not to be that hoarse, but it won't feel... But I... I feel like there's no closure here. Like, are we supposed to just pretend like nothing happened and throw you down and all these feelings? No, no, no, no. Don't pretend like nothing happened. Please don't pretend. I mean, like, it seems like to me it's like all of a sudden we're just going to change the subject and pretend like nothing happened, like there's an alchemy or a war. Well, I don't know if I can create closure, but I might be able to help you.

[11:25]

Like what I just said, we sometimes get situations in group situations, okay, where someone has the courage to step forward and be in the hot seat for a while, which means be at the center of the room, interacting intensely or dynamically or energetically with the teacher who's sitting in one of the hot seats. So the teacher has a hot seat, and other people come and sort of sit in the same seat for a while. And when you do, then everybody's looking at you. and you have it all in focus. And sometimes people say, I did go to sit in that seat, and I've had enough. I want a break. Just like I sometimes take a break from the seat. I don't sit here all day, but I do sit here sometimes, and I sometimes get out of the seat and then just go have lunch with you or whatever. Like, you know, today I was running, and I saw, actually I saw, I saw Rannigan, And I saw a man when I was running. But when we were, you know, there wasn't really a hot seat then.

[12:29]

I wasn't in the hot seat, was I? They both didn't recognize me. I'm not always in the hot seat. And one of the reasons that puts me in the hot seat is when I sit in a group and take a roll, then the pattern of the group puts me in this energetic position called the hot seat, or the seat, the focal point of the group. And I sit there, and sometimes people come and share the seat, and then they do it for a while, and then they want a break. And so... I'm sorry, I'm sorry. When I ran in, she'd run it, and then somebody told me, it's you, and described what you were wearing, and I had seen you, and I said, did she duck? And I thought, oh my gosh, I'd like him so much better without his robes. Well, why didn't you say so? I'll wear my runny shorts to the next comedian. So anyway, in some cases, when I'm interacting with people in these situations, I notice the person is kind of

[13:45]

They seem to be less interested or withdrawing or tensing up or something. And then I say, are you okay? And they say, well, no. And I say, is there anything I can do to help you? And they say, yeah, let's just direct attention someplace besides on me. And then we just simply talk about something. And what people actually do is stop focusing on that person and they get a little break. And they can come back again, like Nan just came back again a little bit there. But she doesn't necessarily want to be put in that position. So maybe that closes it. I don't know. Tell me if that was closure for you. But you know, really, was it? Well, when I'm hearing this, leave it alone. No. I'm not saying leave it alone. I'm saying you wanted closure, and I just made an attempt to help you up closure. And did it work? Leave it alone doesn't sound like closure to me. I think, yeah, I guess it's closure for me.

[14:50]

At this point, I don't feel like it concerns me. It's not going out of my business. I feel like this is between you and Nan. I have absolute confidence that when he faces a situation that involves potential psychiatric emergency, he's examining his behavior at this point. I cannot imagine a person of his skillfulness not doing. So is that closure? By virtue of who he is and what he does and what his profession is, he heard me and he understands that there are issues there that he's probably going to look at on you. So that's another... Can I rephrase what you said? Sure. I think she feels like she said something to me and she thinks maybe I heard her and that she had an impact. And then if I meet someone who's depressed, I'll remember that she said this to me. And she said, be very careful with this person and make sure that you don't treat them as more spiritually advanced than they are.

[15:57]

And if they need, you do it that way. Well, my whole point was that there's a component of depression that's beyond spirituality. And so she would like me to see it places where she feels that the appropriate thing to do would be to consult a psychiatrist who... Or suggest strongly that the person seeking your counsel, they don't have to turn their back on you, but they also have to take hands of the... So you said that to me, and I think she's thinking maybe that had impact on me, so that I'll remember that she said that. And that would be a... Any other example where somebody's saying that to me. And maybe somebody else has said this before, you know. They've said to me, this is big-time stuff. Don't assume that Buddhism can take care of it. And I think there is some tendency in spiritual traditions to think they can cure all diseases, and they can't.

[17:00]

So sometimes, or sometimes people come even to acupuncturists, and they keep putting needles in them, but actually they've got a kind of cancer that acupuncture doesn't reach. people feel bad that the acupuncturist didn't refer them to a, don't tell me. I said, don't tell me. To an oncologist. Because, you know, the severity of some cancers are such that... that acupuncture may not actually slow it down in them. So maybe they should go. And same with Buddhism. I think sometimes Buddhism tries to handle, I shouldn't say Buddhism, but some Buddhist people try to handle certain kinds of diseases that really should be sent to another area. And I think Nancy's probably saying, be careful of that in the future. Please watch out for that. You have made that point more strongly than it was another strong example.

[18:09]

What was the matter with more strongly? Pardon? But whenever I paint, it expands. This is just the part where we can throw it out. Yes. Just to read about that, I think that not only with this tradition, but other forms of self-care, there's often an indication that if people take enough care of themselves, they won't get sick. So some sick people feel like there's a finger pointed at them saying they haven't taken good care or they wouldn't get sick. Right. And that's the other point about this whole discussion when I think it's important. Right. That's another point. And so on that regard, I would say that if you get sick, I am responsible for your sickness.

[19:18]

I'll start there. I'm responsible for everybody's sickness. I'm responsible for everybody's sickness. I'm responsible for everybody's unskillfulness. And if I'm responsible for your unskillfulness or your sickness, if I'm responsible for your sickness and your sickness and your sickness, then I'm also responsible for my sickness. It isn't that I'm only responsible for your sickness, I'm responsible for mine too. Responsible doesn't mean I'm in control. It doesn't mean that I take care of myself but then I won't get sick. It just means that even though I'm not in control of my health, I'm still responsible for it. That's what I'm saying. And that, I think, is part of what I want to say, because I don't hear that point made, and I want to make that point. That's my contribution to this world, is to say that we're all responsible.

[20:20]

Now that we're responsible, if somebody's sick, now what can we do to help? It's not that they're responsible and we're not. It's not that the sick person is responsible and we're not. I am too. They didn't make it rain. I didn't make it rain. We're both responsible. If the rain's happening in their body and not mine, I'm still responsible. That's what my point is. But there's some tendency to put all the blame on the sick person or none of the blame on the sick person. That to say a sick person is not responsible for the illness I think is going too far. And to say that the only one, that they're the only one who's responsible is going too far. Because I'd say I'm responsible for your disease and I'm responsible for mine, but you're also responsible for your disease and you're responsible for mine. That's not physician. That's why I feel good, because that makes me take care of sick people and also invite people to take care of me.

[21:21]

And part of the reason why I invite you is because you're responsible. And part of the reason why I help you is because I'm responsible. In fact, I can respond to your illness. And I should. And then what helpful response could I make? That's my big question. Now I'm on track and I'm responsible. And now what can I do that would be helpful? I'm not spending more time to figure out where I should be responsible. There's just no limit on that. But now what can I do? And in fact, sometimes I can't see anything, like with this war. I'm responsible for this war. You're responsible for this war. What can we do to be helpful? Sometimes we can't see anything. But still, day by day, every day, several times every day, probably all of you, I don't know, several times every day, but probably quite frequently, All of you are wondering, what can we do to make a positive contribution to this horrendous situation?

[22:25]

That's, I think, the help and direction. What can we do to help the sick person who's over there or over here? And do not put all the blame for the illness on the sick person, but don't say that they're not responsible at all. The environment's responsible, you're responsible, and they're responsible. I think some religious teachings put too much on the person, and some other people put too little on the person. Maybe there's some religions that put too little on the person. I think actually materialist philosophy put too little on the person, and some religions put too much on the person. I guess that's philosophically the way I would see it. Yes? I have a personal question. Maybe to get off the subject a little bit.

[23:33]

Are you working on any new books? I'd really benefit from your books that I've read. Am I working on any books right now? Kind of at a distance, yeah. And I think I'm working on a book about this sutra that I talked to you about, the sutra about the unraveling of the intention of the Buddha's teaching. and also particularly working on this business about the relationship between our projection of essence on things and how they're actually not touched by it, and coming to realize that, and how not realizing that causes suffering and how realizing frees us. And meditation is to help us get in there and see how this stuff works. giving classes and giving lectures and studying with people on this for about three or four years. So there's accumulated quite a bit of talks and discussion on this. And so that could be potentially kind of a new book and kind of a new... It's a realm of teaching that hasn't been really put out there yet in the West very much.

[24:44]

So I think a kind of modern version of this ancient text might be coming into... What's the name of the sutra? The name of the sutra is in Sanskrit, And Karine, you can't correct my spelling. I'm sorry. And so the first picture is that the longer name is Gambira. Gambira. Was this the sutra that you were talking on at Pittsburgh last summer?

[25:50]

Yeah. So kambhira means profound. So it means the profound, it means revealing or unlocking or untying the profound intention that it is teaching. That's it. But really it's just, it's revealing the intention. It's the scripture on revealing the intention. And so the point is that Buddha sometimes teaches in various ways, but sometimes you can't see his intention. And seeing the intention of the Buddha sometimes helps you understand better what he's up to. So this sutra points out that in the first part of Buddha's teaching, he taught one thing. Then he taught something quite different. And then in this phase, they're telling you why he taught those kind of apparently contradictory things. So at a certain phase of teaching, the Buddha doesn't tell you the real truth, because if he does, you know, there would be a problem. And one of the problems that won't be to give too profound a teaching at the beginning, you undermine people's confidence and morality.

[26:55]

If the teaching's too deep, they think, oh, well, I guess it doesn't matter what you do, because everything's so deep, you know. Evil's deep, good's deep, so what, man? So people aren't ready for that, because two are very profound teachings until they're really well established in other teachings. So Buddha first said, yeah, well, there really is good and bad, and you should do good. And people said, OK, we'll do it. Yes, sir. And then later he said, well, actually, good and bad really have a nature of their own. But that was too much. So then the third teaching, which kind of explains to people that we didn't really mean what we said the second time. It was kind of a medicine for the first time. That's the unwrapped one. Yeah. And then this teaching also has this certain linguistic sophistication that the earlier teachings didn't have. So there may be a book coming out of that. We'll see. It would be really something, but I think a lot of people would help me do it, you know, help me edit it and so on.

[28:04]

So maybe in the data that would be kind of interesting. That book on precepts was written partly because But it wasn't really one out before, so it seemed like it would be a good contribution. I don't want to do another book that's redundant in what's already out there. But teaching about this sutra would be news. You don't know about this sutra. There's really nothing modern about this sutra. I should say modern. There's really nothing modern in the sense of modern language, in the sense of modern way of talking. There are translations in English of sort of old commentaries. So that would be part of it, too. Anyway, that's a possibility. And the other book that's a possibility is a kind of photographic athlete named Schultz. What?

[29:09]

Me in shorts. You can make a calendar and have it. No, is stud muffin a thing that's not just, is it a national thing, stud muffin? It was stud muffins of science was the first one I heard. It was calendar of really scientific math. But is stud muffin a national term? I don't know. We don't know. It's great. I thought Stubb Muggan was a local Bay Area term. I know that's with pop culture. So here's the gender thing. Is that enough for this afternoon? Does anybody have a strong urge to go to the toilet or not?

[30:18]

Or maybe if I could just answer Lisa's question about, I mean, Lynn's question about tango. So I started taking tango classes partly because my wife wanted to do them and partly because I always loved the tango when I was a kid. I thought it was so neat to see these men and women sort of fighting in these bars in this dance ball. You know what I mean? Kind of like this, you know what I mean? The way they used to do it, they'd sort of dramatize it. The guy comes in and throws the woman across the floor and she comes out with a knife and you know, that's a different thing. They did when I was a kid. But now I see, I didn't even really realize, now I see the incredible moves that they make when they're doing this kind of this kind of aggressive dance. And I also wanted to do something that I really wasn't good at.

[31:20]

I wanted to put myself in a situation where I was like a real beginner and where I was surrounded by people who were more skillful than me and where I feel the awkwardness of being a beginner. Because again, you know, in this situation I have a lot of experience, right? So I'd like to put myself in a situation where I don't have much experience and where I'm surrounded by people who are generally speaking more. And it's hard. It's scary. But I think it's good for me. And so I took some lessons and, you know, and my tango teacher said, you know, excuse me for saying this, but they said, what are you doing? They noticed something strange. And I said, well, I'm a Buddhist priest. I said, hmm. And I started talking to my tango teacher and one day in. And she started talking about how tango was for her, what spiritual practice it was for her, and how she got cancer and how it was part of her healing to continue her tango practice.

[32:29]

She was a tango teacher and then got sick and did the regular thing. But the real healing, the final stages of the healing came with it. And through the whole process of dancing, it really helped her with the pain. And she started crying when she was talking about it. And she said, you know, maybe we could do something together about relating Zen to tango. So we talked about it, and we had some meetings. And we thought about ways of doing it together. So she and her co-teacher came out to Green Gulch. And we had a regular Sunday morning where I gave a talk about how tango and zen are related. And then we had a panel discussion with me and two tango teachers. And it was just a great panel discussion. Did you go to that? That wasn't the case. Oh. Anyway, it was a wonderful panel discussion with these tango teachers. They were great.

[33:30]

And then we had the class, and we did basic stuff about how to meet and move together and communicate. It was wonderful. It was really great. It was a very, the whole day was just really this great feeling of love, a great love. Could you feel it? Yeah. In your position? Yeah. It just really happened. It was, you know. Even in the kitchen. Yeah. It was a wonderful, wonderful day. And of course everybody wants to do it again, and I'm a little bit, I must admit, shy to do it again because it's such a great act to follow. It's just like, it was so great, it's like, how can we do that, anything approaching that? But anyway, it was wonderful, really wonderful. Yes? I have a question, just kind of expanding on that. Yes. So I'm thinking, like, how, like, arts and Zen might come together, other practices besides just study meditation and tradition.

[34:36]

Yes. So if a student were to come to you and maybe study meditation wasn't right for them, would you still work with them in other ways or have you? Or just curious if you could share. Well... Some people don't sit much, but some people come to Green Gulch, for example, but they don't practice much sitting meditation, but they come to Green Gulch and they hear talks. And then they sometimes come and talk to me about their life, but they don't come and talk to me about sitting meditation or walking meditation. They come to talk to me about their understanding. Some people are not so much interested in sitting, but they're interested in the Buddha's teaching. And some people actually also aren't even interested in the Buddha's teaching. They just want me to talk to them about their cancer or something.

[35:42]

or the death of their parents, or their fear of death themselves. I do some of that. But if someone wanted to study something else, like tea ceremony, I wouldn't be their tea ceremony teacher. If they wanted to have something else be the practice rather than just discussing with me the principles of Buddhism. Some people take classes with me. A lot of people take classes with me and don't sit much So I guess if somebody comes to me and says they want help with their sitting meditation, I say, well, I kind of like, that's a little bit of my animal, because I have been doing this for almost 40 years, thousands and thousands of hours, so I am kind of, I'm one of the people who kind of is really experienced in that. But some other aspect, like if they wanted to learn how to cook in a Zen way, I think I'd probably send them over to somebody who had more experience than me. So if somebody wants to study with me, but I think somebody wants us better at the thing that they want to study, I might send them over to the area.

[36:51]

That's basically how I do it. movement? Well, in the Shambhala Buddhist tradition, which is a Tibetan tradition, we have a couple of sign-up books from both sides of the group. They have a whole contemplative arts program in the Tibetan tradition. So I was just curious what kind of property, that's the question. Like they do everything from poetry, painting, theater, dance, photography. And Zen tradition has Zen calligraphy, Zen painting tradition for hundreds of years. Zen tea ceremony, archery, actually. And kendo. Kendo is kind of a Zen training. Wow. Huh? Part of tea ceremony, flowers. Yeah, flower arrangement. And even a temple building. And also ceramic wood is very closely related to Zen.

[37:57]

But if those people were interested in that, I wouldn't be teaching them. I mean, I'd like to, but I really can't. Those people would say, you can't teach that stuff. You don't know enough about it to teach it. You're not about to like it, but not teach it. But I work with people who are teasers. Some of my students are tea teachers, and some of my students are archery teachers and ceramicists and so on, but I don't teach them those things. But that is part of the Zen Center culture. We do have a tea house, and we used to have a pottery studio and a kiln. And we also had archery at Zen Center. Zen archery happens at Zen Center sometimes. But besides sitting meditation and walking meditation and Buddhist scriptures, the main thing I teach is how to wear a bathing suit. Can you look at each one of us like me? We don't have courses in it, but you do have a number of motorcyclists who do maintain their motorcycles.

[39:17]

But I'm not, you know, their teacher. What about Zen and, because you're a runner, I'm a runner, John's a runner, and I actually came to sitting the way running came first. And then I realized when running there was also sitting. And... Do you think there's a possibility that this could become part of, say, Shen's schedule here or elsewhere? And what are your thoughts on specifically running, but other forms of athleticism and Zen? It definitely could be part of it. And some Zen centers do have it part of it. I did a retreat in Wales where running was part of the schedule. And I also heard of a Japanese teacher the teacher runs with the students as part of the session. In some other Zen centers, the teacher does yoga with the students. In other Zen centers, the teacher does martial arts with the students.

[40:19]

In some other Zen centers, the teacher does tea ceremony. So some Zen teachers are also either teachers of other arts and actually teach them along with the the sitting. But other Zen teachers are amateurs at some exercises, amateurs or teachers, and then as part of their daily life they do the running or whatever, and they invite the students to join them. And they may or may not make it part of the schedule. So, for example, at Tassajara we have an exercise period as part of the daily schedule, and during that time I run and I swim. And when it was swimming, People go swimming with me. But the only uncertain number of people who can get in the pool at once, and then I go running, people go running with me. But not all people like to run. I've also had yoga classes where I invite teachers, because I'm a yoga teacher, and I've done the yoga classes with the yoga teacher, but not everybody goes to it.

[41:24]

So there's almost no, with a big Zen center, there's almost no thing besides sitting that everybody wants to do. That chunk in the schedule could be the yoga slash running. Exactly. In fact, basically what we do, we have exercise period, which means running, swimming, yoga, tai chi, and the Zen Center has some runners, it has some good swimmers. The swimmers are all better than me, but they don't teach me to swim unless I ask them what they could. But the teacher is not, I'm not the teacher of any of those things. But they are part of the schedule. Are they practicing? Pardon? Are they practicing? Definitely. Everything I do is practice. And I may slip in my practice, but the point of Zen is to make everything you do practice. Your exercise, your hygiene, your daily conversations, your sitting, your studying, your shopping,

[42:31]

The point is to make everything practice. And so if exercise is a wholesome thing in your life, then bring practice to the exercise, and bring exercise to the practice. Yes, definitely. And if you had a small session, or you could have a special session, a special session, a runner session. You could do that. Like we had a tango session, right? You could have a runner session, and then just all the people who signed up for that would be runners. or people who wanted to watch the people run. That's me. I don't know. I haven't been at work dense enough, yeah. Right, exactly. But in California, you could have a runner's session and probably you could, you know, a lot of people would come. But if you just have a regular practice period, not everybody in the practice period is a runner. So you can't get all the people to run and all the people to do Tai Chi. But independently, I know a number of Zen teachers who do run themselves, but they don't necessarily run with their students.

[43:40]

And I know some other Zen teachers who have run with their students and have in schedule to run. And again, some other ones do martial arts with their students, and it's part of the schedule. Also, we have a bath period. We also bathe. But everybody seems to be up for that. Everybody seems to be able to go to the bathroom. But not everybody can run. In some sense, students have to be very careful with their knees, right? So they can't really run. They have problems sitting. It doesn't work for everybody. Well, is that enough break this afternoon? And tomorrow morning we can start with the grandmother moment.

[44:31]

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