I need a copy of the case. Everybody have one? Okay. Let's see. On Saturday we had a study of case 9 of the Book of Serenity, which is case 14 of the Phumong Khan, and is case, what's the number? 63 and 64. 53 and 54 of the Blue Cliff Record. It's called Nanchuan Kills. So some emphasis was placed on using that story as a way of looking and as a lens.

[01:23]

And also, I think you can put koans generally that way, as lenses. And lenses, like we have a lens in our eye, lenses have the ability to actually, they do something to your eye, don't they? Focus. Don't they actually touch your eye? They can touch your eye. Don't they affect your eye? Don't they actually affect the way your eye, the way it runs in your eye works too? Isn't that what they do? They reshape, but coming into your sensory system. Well, they reshape, but don't they also affect your eye somewhat? Wait, wait. Does the eye stay the same? Does it actually affect on the eye, on the lens of the eye? You mean like the glow? Is there opportunity in the eye? Glow? No, the lens. The internal, it actually reconfigures your lens when you're wearing glasses.

[02:37]

It actually changes the physical lens in your eye too, doesn't it? The lens in the glass... The lens in the glass does something to your actual eyeball. It isn't just the lens, the eye changes too, right? Yeah, that's when you take your glasses off and fall. Well, it has to adjust. Like, it takes sometimes an hour to adjust the musculature of the whole eye has to adjust. But what I'm saying, doesn't the eyeball itself, doesn't it? Yes, it adjusts to the lens, yes. I thought you meant the internal lens. No. The internal lens? You mean the brain? No, there's an internal lens in the globe. I mean the lens in your physical eye. Oh, not this lens. No, this is one lens, right? Okay. And there's also a lens in your eye, right? The lens in your eye changes too, doesn't it? Under what circumstances? When you put a lens in front of it.

[03:38]

Yes, it's always going to respond to whatever in front of the cornea. Right. So... The koans are like that too, but they actually change the way you see. If you use them for a while, the way you see will change. And there's a lot of Buddhist teachings which are kind of discursive, like tell you how to change your vision, tell you where to look and how to look. And some other Buddhist teachings are kind of like visionary, like the Lotus Sutra gives you these visions, which are narratives and so on. And when you look at those stories, your eyes change in a sense. What you're looking at and how you look change. The koans I think what I'd like to emphasize tonight is not so much that you're looking at the colon, but that you're looking through the colon.

[04:41]

What's in the colon may be interesting, but mainly what it is, is that by looking at the colon, you can see through the colon, and then when you see through the colon, things look differently, and hopefully in a helpful and insightful way. And when you first look at the koan, you may not feel like you see things too differently, partly because you may be looking at the surface of the koan. In other words, you may be commenting on the lens. You may say, oh, this is a concave lens, or this is a convex lens, or this is a bumpy lens, or a scratchy lens, or a multifaceted lens, or And so as you study the lens, you start to, you know, somehow the intimacy with the lens changes the way you see through it. And another way of actually seeing these lens, to talk about the cases, which in some sense is,

[05:57]

The lens idea is kind of nice because it's kind of interdependent. It has the image of something out there that makes you change too, and then you see through it. Another way to talk about it is that these stories are eyes. The koans are eyes. And in Dogen Zenji's Shobo Genzo, it means treasury of true dharma eyes, or treasury of eyes of the truth. So it's a collection of or storehouse of ways of seeing. And not all, but many of the classicals have a koan. And the koans there, there's this purpose of seeing. But then Dogen talks about the koan in such a way that he kind of tells you how far or how near to hold it to your eyes and how to tilt it maybe a little bit. because other teachers say to use the koans maybe some different ways.

[07:03]

The way Dogen Zenji talks about it, he has his own way of saying, you're going to see best if you hold it like this. And in this story, too, that we're talking about tonight, some teachers will say to use this story in one way or another, and they may differ somewhat in the way they say to use the story. although this story doesn't seem to be terribly controversial. So let's see what we see. Let's read the story first, in this case. Oh, do you want some background? Okay, so there's two characters in the story.

[08:04]

One character's name is Iron Grinder Lu, and the other character is Guishan. And Guishan is one of the main disciples of Baizhang Waihai, who is a very important Zen teacher. And Guishan also is a very important Zen teacher and he had a great disciple named Yangshan. He had many disciples but his most noted disciple is Yangshan. And Guishan and Yangshan actually founded one of the five main lineages of Zen in China. Guishan Lingyu, Lingyu is his Buddhist name. Guishan is the name of the mountain that he lived on, Mount Kauai. Actually, one time, I think it was a, what is it, kind of a shaman, I thought we'd say, called a Taoist shaman, came to Baijong and told Baijong that he found this excellent place for a monastery.

[09:30]

And he said, but it wouldn't be suitable for you, Master. You're too skinny. Baijian was kind of thin and wiry. it wouldn't be suitable to you. So I think I'd like to see some of your leading disciples and maybe I could tell you which one would be good to be the abbot of this, the teacher of this mountain. Mount Kui, it was. And so I think, I don't remember exactly, but I think Bai Zhang had the head monk come in and asked him some questions.

[10:35]

I think there was a bucket, a pitcher of water, a bucket of water sitting, you know, next to his chair, next to Bai Zhang's chair. And I think either Bai Zhang or the shaman asked him some questions about how to use the water. And so he answered the question. And then they called Guishan, who was the head cook. And they asked him the same question about how to use the water. And I think that when Guishan came in, the... He's kind of heavy set and when he came in the shaman said, that guy's built right for this mountain. He would be good. And then they asked Guishan how to deal with this water issue and he kicked over the bucket.

[11:36]

And they realized he was the person for the mountain. So he went there. And he just lived, he didn't go, he didn't like move up to the mountain and build a big monastery We just lived down at the bottom of the mountain and did some farming and gradually people started to come. And then gradually they established this community. in this shobo genzo, everyday activity, khajyo. Guishan said to his group after the group got established on Mount Kauai, he said, I've been on Mount Kauai for thirty years and have been eating

[12:46]

Mount Gui's rice and shitting Mount Gui's shit. I have not studied Guishan Zen, but I see a single water buffalo. When it wanders off the road and begins grazing, I yank it back. When it trespasses onto other people's fields, I discipline it. In this way, I've been taming this white buffalo for a long time. Such an adorable one. It understands human speech, and now it has been transformed into a white ox. All day long, is walking around in the ground in front of us, even if we try to drive it away, it will not leave.

[13:49]

So, as he says in the commentary, Guishan called himself a water buffalo, and he said that he would be reborn as a water buffalo. Let's see now where he said that. After I die, Grishan said, after I die, I'll go down the mountain to an almsgiver's house. I'll go down to the base of the mountain and be a water buffalo. On my left flank, five words will be written. a Guishan monk meet. At that time, would it be right to call it a Guishan monk, or would it be right to call it a water buffalo?

[15:12]

And then the other character is this person, this woman, she was a nun. Her family name was Lu. I don't know her Buddhist name, but the name she was known by is Iron Grinder or Iron Grindstone. And that was because whenever anybody talked to her about Dharma, if they weren't really alert and awake and flexible, they would be crushed and ground into dust. So she was very well known and got this nickname, There were, of course, quite a few people like that, both male and female, in China during the Golden Age of Zen.

[16:37]

But she was one who actually was like, you know, like in case four of the Blue Cliff Record, there's a story of Doshan meeting the lady who has the pastry shop, the What do you call it? Biscuits? What do you call biscuits? Cakes. Huh? Cakes? Yeah, they're cakes. They're dumplings, Chinese dumplings. She had this shop. But we don't know her name. She wasn't that famous. But there were quite a few people like that that were around. And she was one of those people. And she studied with Guishan for a long time. So it says water and then it has a character and then it has another character which means bull or ox.

[17:48]

That's what Guishan called himself. And he called her a character which means adjective to feminize and bull. So he was the He was this buffalo, and she was this female. She was a buffalo bull or a buffalo ox, and she was a female buffalo or female ox. But I guess you don't have female oxes. Oxes aren't female, are they? Hmm? Aren't oxes neutered? Neutered males? Is that what ox is? Neutered male? Neutered bull? Anyway, he called himself Buffalo and called her Water... female Buffalo. And she lived about three miles from him. So this story, in this story she's coming to see Guishan and when he sees her he says, Old cow, you come.

[18:54]

And then she says, Tomorrow on Taishan there's a big gathering and a vegetarian feast. Are you going, teacher? And Grayshawn lay down and sprawled out. Another translation is, he relaxed his body and spread out on the ground. And she immediately left. That's the story. So this story has been transmitted for 1,000 years. Sounds like a sand pick-up line. Artie, are you coming? Another piece of information is that Taishan is in northern China.

[20:13]

And it is a large mountain. It's one of the five sacred mountains of China. And for Buddhists, and for non-Buddhists too, but particularly for Buddhists, the Buddhists have five sacred mountains. And Taishan is the mountain of Manjushri Bodhisattva, Bodhisattva of Wisdom. And then Omeshan is the mountain of Samantabhadra and so on. So different great Bodhisattvas are associated with some of these great mountains. So she's saying, are you going to go to this mountain? There's going to be a big party up there tomorrow. At that time, they were there in Hunan, which means south of the lake, which is about more than 600 miles south of Taishan. Now today, of course, you could conceivably get to Taishan tomorrow, but in those days, it would take several days to go from where they were to Taishan. What she's getting at

[21:19]

is in her nestle, is not literally the case that they're talking about walking to up there in one day. But she is asking him about this. And his response is to relax. So now maybe read the introduction. It says, nose high, each has powerful appearance. Footsteps firm and solid. One may study old woman Chan. When you penetrate the ungraspable dynamic for the first time, you see the method of a true master. Tell me, who is such a person? They've splendid noses, these two.

[22:30]

And they're walking with firm, steady steps. So it says, yeah, one may study old woman Chan, but another translation would be, you know, who needs to learn? old woman child, who needs to learn grandma zen? So what I'm saying is you may, one may study or learn old woman zen. Another way to translate it would be, who needs to or, yeah, who needs to study old woman zen, grandma zen? But it's saying here, look at the story, when you penetrate the ungraspable dynamic, there's a dynamic here, okay?

[23:40]

Between these two people that are, this lady is very well known for being very sharp and very quick and very dangerous. Her, what do they call her? Her working activity, her pivot in her relationship was very quick and very sharp and clear. And Guishan was, I don't know what to say about him, but anyway, a great master also. And these two people are working together now. So there's a dynamic here. Can you see the dynamic between these people? Seeing this dynamic, then you'll see the method of a true master. It's not so much, you know, seeing the method of true master being... Guishan is a great master, so I'm not saying you'll see his method or her method, but you see the method of a master in this dynamic here that you can't grasp.

[24:44]

So we're looking at this story to see through this story into the dynamic, which is the method of a true teacher. And we're not given much information about the dynamic other than we know something about these are two people with splendid noses and both been practicing a long time. When you say about Taishan being Manjushri's mountain, there's a sense to me when I read this that they're already there, in the sense that there's no more coming and going, that they're old and they've studied and now there's no coming and there's no going.

[26:09]

So they're already there with Manjushri's sword collecting. And that they kind of demonstrate it by splaying out, not looking and looking. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's right. They're already there. So one could use a story to look and see what it's like to already be there. And then what kind of activity occurs when everybody's already there? And what parties do you go to? Yeah, in a way. In a way, the parties are having their own party right there, and they're just so playful with each other. What? I said maybe the party, you just wait until the party presents itself to you. Or you leave. I mean, one person waited for the other to cut out. Yeah, she left.

[27:11]

Who left? you know if you if you uh If you aren't sure of what you have to say, if you're going to make a mistake, if you're going to say something loudly and make a mistake, I mean, you say something, you make a mistake, say it loudly. So I would recommend that you study, and maybe next week, sorry, I didn't get it copied for you, the Case 24 of the Blue Cliff Record. If you can get a copy of that, you can probably find that good to study, Case 24.

[28:16]

When I study cases that are both in the Blue Cliff Record and in the Book of Serenity, I often can tell that the people who put the Book of Serenity together had been looking at the Blue Cliff Record. So, the Blue Cliff Record was first put together as 100 stories, collected by a Zen master named Sui Do, who was a disciple of Yin Man. Suido was a great poet. I mean, I can't judge Chinese poetry, but he's considered one of the most wonderful poets of the Zen tradition. So he collected these hundred stories, and then he wrote a poem for each story. And that's what he did.

[29:22]

And that was a traditional thing for a person to do is to take ancient stories and write a poem which expresses your appreciation of the story, or the appreciation of the teaching. This is both in Buddhism and Chinese literature in general. And then, after him, another Zen master came by. This Zen master's name was Yuran Wu, which means round enlightenment, but he's also called Pho Gua. which means Buddha fruit, or the fruit of awakening. And he wrote a commentary on each case and a commentary on the verses and also wrote the introduction. So that became then the text. And then 50 years later, another Zen teacher came by

[30:29]

named Tianpeng Pengzhi, and he collected 100 cases, some of which were already in the booklet record. And he wrote 100 poems celebrating the 100 cases that he chose. And then 50 years after him, another Soto Zen teacher wrote commentary on the case and a commentary on his verses and an introduction. And his name was Wang Sung, which means 10,000 pines. And so when the case is already in the Blue Cliff Record, sometimes you can tell by the comments that they're reading the Blue Cliff Record, because sometimes the comments are similar to the comments. Sometimes the comments that Wang Sung makes are similar to the comments that Yiran Wu makes. And sometimes the verses are somewhat related to the verses, sometimes the verses of Tien Kung are related to the verses of Sui Do.

[31:40]

But in this case, I found more, what do you call it, more, it isn't really plagiarism in Zen because it's considered, Part of the tradition is to use the old sayings and mix them with the new sayings. Sometimes completely new, but it's not considered plagiarism to pull things from the old text into your text. But this one is a very strong pulling. I think part of the reason for that is because the poetry of Sui Du is so very straightforward in this case. Sometimes he's not so straightforward. Often beautiful, but not easy to see. This one's easier to see and therefore has stronger influence than the later commentators. And also in the Blue Cliff Record, the introduction that Yuran Wu makes to the case is actually quoting a poem which another Zen teacher wrote about the depreciation of the case.

[32:54]

The Zen teacher, his name is Feng Shui. He's the guy, I think, that, what do you call it, which we had a few cases ago. So in the introduction to the Blue Cliff Record, the first part of it is actually a poem which somebody else wrote about the case. And then he said some things on his own. So there's a lot of borrowing around this case. And I think that, um, so the Blue Cliff Record is, uh, it's very nice what it did. And in this case, it's a case where you can see a close relationship between the Blue Cliff Record and the Book of Serenity. And also, in that sense, a close relationship between different schools, different teachers. Go ahead. Word is, um, The gateless gate come in. Where does it come in?

[33:56]

Because the gateless gate has some koans too. The gateless gate also has some of the koans that are in the book of Serenity, but the style of the gateless gate is different. So the gateless gate has the koan, then it has a short, like a verse commentary, and then a verse commentary. It doesn't have a discursive comment. What about the publishing time? It's earlier. It's earlier than both? Yeah. But it's a different style. It doesn't have a discursive commentary the way these do. It's mostly just case and then a comment, but the comment's very terse, almost like a verse, and then a verse. So it's much shorter and more... A little bit more, what do you call it? Concentrated. Concentrated and a little more dramatic or ruthless.

[35:04]

Poignant. It doesn't, poignant? Maybe poignant. No, I don't think poignant. Maybe more, just a little sharper. More like maybe like a diamond citra. If a case shows up in several texts, doesn't it give it more honor, so to say? If it shows up in different collections? Yeah, like only one or the other. Does that say something? Well, it definitely says that it's considered to be a very important case, yeah. But then in some cases, some people may feel that this case only appears in this one, but this is the most important case in their life, so... But certainly when they appear on all three, it's an important case. Yes. All these are important cases. As part of what's interesting about the koans is sometimes you can't see what's important about it. You look in the koan, you can't see. But that's sometimes because you're looking at the surface of the lens rather than looking through it.

[36:05]

And sometimes when you're looking through something and seeing something that you don't want to see, you don't think it's very important. Can you imagine some things you might not want to see? Yeah, I can. Well, actually, when I was just reading the verse, I really, like you said, I really appreciated your interpretation about that, and it helped having gone through the blueprint record where we studied Maharaj, Sri, or whatever. It's just that much. Suddenly reading the verse, it struck me how incredibly funny this case is and how incredibly funny it was to them. And they must have just been sort of almost a silent belly laugh. Like, hey, you gonna go the 600 miles tomorrow? Sure, lady. But between that, there was an instantaneous communication of an entire lifetime.

[37:14]

That's what I feel. That's what I see when I look through. Yeah, I think it seems like what people feel, the commentators are saying that these people really work together. They really work together. Yeah. I doodle often as a way of making notes. I was just thinking that if you hold a magnifying glass or lens far away from your eyes, like you said, you can only focus on the lens, really. You can't really focus on things beyond it. But if you hold it close to your eye, like the idea of holding things closely, like holding a koan closely, you can use it as a lens. But if you're just kind of like... holding it out there, then you can't use it for what it's for. Like, you can't use a magnifying glass to see things in a larger or more detailed way.

[38:16]

If you're holding it way out there, you have to actually, like, with the lenses, you have to hold it closer to your eye. What do you do if you're blind in your desk? What do you do if you're blind in your desk? Well, it's interesting, you know, because just between you talking and you talking, what came to my mind was that one time at Tatsuhara, I had my head and my arm like this. I was resting my head and my arm on my desk like this. I just did it again. And I looked out of the corner of my eye at my robe, and my vision, you know, is, what do you call it, is evolving as I grow older.

[39:17]

So I can't see things up close very well anymore. If I just hold the book up like this, I really can't see the words anymore. And I can see the words, but I don't know what they are. In the sense of, you know, which words, what they say in English and stuff. I can see the marks on the page. But I have to get up to about here before I can see it says, she turns. One push, she turns. When I looked out of the corner of my eye, and the cloth is right near my eye, I could see almost microscopically out of the side of my eye. I could see all the little fibers in the cloth. You know? But that's not usually the way you read, you know? It somehow doesn't work, but with the cloth somehow, it really worked. And I don't know, it's just like...

[40:19]

Maybe there's a way for a blind person to see. That's what I thought of when you said that. I really believe there is, but... But not the usual way, you know, not out here, but maybe out the side you can see again from a different angle, from an unexpected direction. We might be able to see something that we can't usually see. What about that thing here that swells up? I suppose the same thing happens there, you know. Now, if you can't do either, right? You can say, what if you can't do either? Yeah, and so how can you use the koan as it is? If you can't hear or see? You mean if you could, if someone could only touch you, you mean? Yeah. I don't know who would be skillful enough to convey to you ways of seeing what life was about just by touch.

[41:24]

Helen Keller did. Yeah. Their teacher. Right. So, what was your name, Sullivan? Yeah. Anne Sullivan. So, it would be possible for someone to touch you in such a way as to help you see, or help you understand, through the touch, what this is all about. But that would be, you know... One of the unfortunate things about not being able to see and hear is that some of the traditions have been... The Buddha, for example, did talk. He touched people, too, but his teaching has not been conveyed as a massaged school. Although, in some sense, it has. In the sense that his disciples do touch people sometimes. But a lot of his teaching... It was verbal. It was verbal in how he looked. So, how he smelled and how he touched and what he tasted like, these are not the ways that he sort of stands out as a teacher.

[42:38]

He stands out particularly by the words, which in those days you actually heard. Nobody saw, nobody read the Buddha's teaching in the early days. They were all listening, right? They were listening to his words, and seeing his body. And so I don't know of any stories of the Buddha helping people that couldn't see or hear. There are scriptures about people who, Buddhas that teach by smell though. So it is possible to teach in other media. It's just the Shakyamuni Buddha taught with words and his appearance. So one of the unfortunate things would be to be born in the world of Shakyamuni Buddha and not be able to see and hear. And then it would be, again, fortunate if somehow you met a compassionate person who could touch you and maybe take you to the Dharma through touch. I think some of us have been taken to Dharma through touch, but then most of us also can see in here, so that's just another dimension for us.

[43:45]

but isn't it sort of taking it kind of literally? Isn't that taking it kind of literally, too literally? And when you say looking through a lens, it doesn't mean actually you're looking through your eyes to see these words on this paper. No. But you get the words somehow, however you get the words. And the words come to you, the words come to you, and then when you hear the words, the words help you look through the lens. Exactly, yeah, right. Yeah. Yes. I'm struck in these koans that a lot, so much of what is important that happens is non-verbal, like, you know, you spoil a bath, or someone gets hit. Yes. It's all a lot of physical kind of stuff. Yes. Which makes it a little more difficult to understand because I'm used to more language to support what's going on. Yes. Okay, well, here's some more language. This is, I think, I find this helpful language.

[44:48]

This is a poem. Okay. And you can look through this. Maybe you can see something through this. Once riding an iron horse, she entered the fortress. The Imperial Proclamation The six kingdoms are at peace. The six kingdoms, there's a period in Chinese history called the Warring Kingdoms, or the Warring States, or the Six Kingdoms. There was a period when there's six different countries, and they're fighting for hundreds of years. And they're finally all conquered and put into one state. in the Qin dynasty. This is a metaphor for like, in some sense, this story goes with case of Nanchuan killing the cat.

[46:00]

This story, the monks are not fighting with each other. In this story, there's peace. There's no more war here. Still holding the golden whip, she questions the returning troops. In the depths of the night, who will go alone to walk the royal road? Another way to say it would be, in the depths of the night, who will walk with him along the king's streets? So the first one's pretty straightforward. Iron grinder Lu goes to see Guishan. One praises her.

[47:01]

She's praised to do that by the expression, once riding an iron horse, she enters the fortress. And then Guishan asks her a question. The imperial proclamation. There's peace in the warring kingdoms. Old cow, you've come. This is a proclamation of peace by the emperor Guishan. Then she says, you know, tomorrow there's going to be a feast on Taishan. Will you be going, master? Still holding the golden whip, she questions the returning troops. In the depths of the night, who will go alone and walk the royal road, praises him relaxing his body and her leaving.

[48:09]

So that's kind of like painting, giving you a picture of the inner dynamic that's happening there. Do you see it? Do you see something? I'm wondering about the words, oh cow, you've come, and the question mark at the end of that. Is that some kind of challenge, or what it means to say, you've come, or ask, you've come? You wonder what the question mark means? Or what it means, or multiple meanings of that question, you've come. You wonder what the multiple meanings of the question are? If there are any questions. Do you want to start with one?

[49:20]

Well, on one hand, she physically enters the door to come. Yes. But also, there seems to be more to it than that. You come, or are you awake, or... Uh-huh. Something like that. Well, something like that. What else? What else could he be saying with that question? Who does come, or... Yeah. The world of no coming and going was that you did. Yeah. Have you actually come? I mean, is this a coming? In terms, like Martha was saying, we were already here, we've always been together. Did you, like, have you, on top of us always being together, come somehow? How did you do that? I didn't think you'd ever left. Now, how do you do that? How did this happen? I think there's, what do you call it?

[50:26]

And also he's saying, according to Sway Du, he's saying, you know, have you come means we're at peace. We've had quite a life together here, and now finally there's peace in the world, right now. And nobody can get a hold of this piece. Could it also be like almost a check-in or a challenge? Like, are you here? Are you with me? Are you meeting me now? Could it be a challenge? Not exactly a challenge, but more like a... like a check-in. Like, are you awake? You walked into my room. Are you eating me? Could be. Considering who he's talking to, though, in some sense it seems like, no, it isn't.

[51:38]

It doesn't seem like you asked this woman that question. It's not so much a question whether she's awake. It seems to me it's more something... That's given, somehow. They're working on another level, I think. Roberta, and Raja, and Ana, and Pam, and Kathmeet. I wonder, him asking that way evokes her response, because there's a parallel. Yes, you come, and her question, it's maybe drawn out, is, are you going? Mm-hmm. And are you going to a party? Do you need any more parties than me coming to visit you? Great Master. Roger? I'm just struck by how so many other koans begin with, where have you come from, just now.

[52:43]

And this is like saying, we're finished. I don't need to ask you that question. We don't have that question to see us. Yeah, one of the comments is, it's two people supported by one staff. They come together and then go together. So, This is a meaning where when she comes, he comes. And when she goes, he goes. Or when he goes, she goes. So when he relaxed, she was gone. He goes flat, she's gone. They're working very closely here. And somehow you can't get a hold of what it is for them to work closely. And yet they are. Somehow it seems like everyone is very happy about this. All the ancestors, all the All the old masters are really happy about how intimately they're working together. Another poem is Standing on the summit of the highest peak Unknown to demons and outsiders Walking on the bottom of the deepest sea Unseen even by the Buddha's eyes

[54:05]

That's what's happening with them. And that's the introduction to this case, too. That's Trey Flum's poem about this. Kathleen? Because he was once my teacher. Still is. That there's something in there about how a teacher and the student become equal or so deep in their understanding of each other that there's this reciprocal relationship. Yes, definitely. Definitely. But she was, you know, I don't really know what independence she has of him, you know, whether she was a noted... practitioner even before she practiced with him or they were always working together from the beginning.

[55:10]

I don't know. He's always her teacher but she's clearly his peer now. She calls him teacher and she always will but they're really working together and you can't put the teaching over onto him. Yes, Anup. I think to play, they also have to say something different. I mean, when he falls out, she leaves, at least. To play. I mean, she... The story couldn't be that she would dwell then. She cuts that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's... Yeah. Necessary part of it. Mm-hmm. There's no fasting. There's nothing there, I mean. We cannot have a feast then or something. It would be hard to make us ever do anything after that.

[56:13]

But maybe you could imagine, well, unless you went over to the stove and... Oh, I was just going to say, it's almost summed up in that first line, you know, okay, however you come, it's like, are you here when it's not necessary? That's what that sort of sounds like. Yeah, I think that's part of it, too. We don't ever have to see each other anymore, and yet you still come. Where, you know, our relationship has come to fruit. It's done its job for both of us. It's done its job for the whole world. And you still come. It's kind of like Shakyamuni Buddha. At the end of one of the scriptures where it starts off by a person asking him how come he goes out in the forest and meditates because it's so dangerous out there and don't his students copy him and isn't that a bad example and all that?

[57:15]

And then he explains how if you meditate right, it's not so dangerous. And then at the end he says, he's sort of thinking to himself, talking out loud, he says, so you might think, Senor Panasoli, that I'm not really enlightened. because I still go and practice meditation in the forest. But there are two reasons why I continue to practice. One, because I like it. And two, for the sake of the future generations. This relationship between them is like it's not even for the future generations. They've already taken care of that. Everybody knows that they had this relationship. That's all over. I think they just do it because they like to. It's kind of like They just like to. It's a habit. They just want to hang out, even though it's totally, totally complete.

[58:19]

It's also like it's complete enough that she can just, she can go. She doesn't even have to stay there for, I mean, to happen. It's like she's gone, it's still happening. Yes. Is she teasing him a little bit by... or sort of saying, well, there's this party that's 600 miles away, are you great enough to go? Or do you think you're great enough to get there? Is she sort of seeing... I mean, he is her great teacher, and is she both... praising him and seeing if he will fall, you know, into that sort of sense of his own greatness, that he could get there, that he could somehow do something like that. I mean, what is she saying to him about this impossible party, this impossible travel, this impossible feat?

[59:25]

What do you think? I think she's... It says that there's no content. Who would bother to contend? I think she's, you know, tickling him a little. And sort of... What's that about? That tickling? I think it's this place between complete respect and challenge. Because sort of leaving it alone, completely respecting, and yet wanting to see if he believes it, you know, if he believes that he's great. So you think there's still that level where she thinks he might think he's great? I think she's teasing me. But do you think she thinks that he thinks he's great? No. You don't think? No. So she doesn't think he thinks he's great.

[60:31]

So she doesn't think he's going to fall for this. So she's challenging him in a challenge that she doesn't think he's going to fall for. Well, he said something to her that he didn't think she was going to fall for either. Well, she didn't, did she? No. And we both fell down. Well, I just wonder, you know, what's going on now? She doesn't think he thinks he's great. She's teasing him. And how is she teasing him again? By... She... They have a great relationship. And in the past... there have been times when he thought he was pretty great. A while ago. A while ago.

[61:35]

So she's just bringing it up again, knowing that they've gotten through this. She's kind of saying, you used to be... She's kind of reminiscing it. Yeah. I can see that. Remember when you used to be really stupid and full of yourself? Remember that? And then he passes out. Not all relationships are like this. I think that's part of what this story is about. Well, like, you know, Dante said that, yeah, like in the commentary it says, looking at the Book of Serenity, the poem's a little different, you know.

[62:52]

Success in a hundred battles accomplished, growing old in great peace. Serene and gentle, who is willing to trouble to contend? The jade whip and the golden horse. See, this is kind of like, in the other one it says the golden whip. The jade whip and the golden horse are idle all day. It says, in this case though, she came when she was still holding the golden whip. That's kind of like what you're saying. She's still holding the golden whip and she's saying, your troops have come home. And the returning troops, she asked them questions. Are you guys still fighting? But here it says, in the book of Serenity, Chantung says, the jade whip and the golden horse are idle all days. The bright moon and the pure wind enrich a whole lifetime.

[63:53]

And then young monks talk about Buddha. Old generals don't talk about the army. If they don't discern whether the wheat in front of the mountain is green or yellow, and don't know the price of rice in Lu Ling, yet still go on talking about Buddhas. Who has ever seen it even in a dream? So when people are like that, then you don't have stories like this. It's a different situation. But there's a time for those stories, too. We have those stories. This is a different story. And yet, somehow, here it is, and one could enter this door, at least as a visitor, and see if one felt uncomfortable and wanted to go back to being into, you know, conquests and talking about Buddha. And then this biography, again, says, the biography of Chen Fan in the Eastern Han Dynasty says, Fan was able to set up

[65:07]

local education, and establish his character and repute. He argued against ignorance, customs, striving in the midst of danger and prejudice, and contended with convicts and eunuchs. In the meeting of Guishan and Iron Grinder Liu, They didn't establish character or repute and didn't strive in danger and prejudice. They were relaxed and easygoing, seasoned and mature. And here's an interesting line. Why is it that Tiantong can't finish praising them? Upon attainment, calculations are naturally forgotten. When in action, no effort is wasted. So maybe this is a vision of the celebratory situation.

[66:20]

There are situations like that where basically what the thing is, is to rejoice. Maybe this is saying enlightenment is possible. And not only that, but enlightenment of two people at once. Two people can share the enlightenment and do it together. Maybe that's what it's about. So why don't you check it out? See if that's what it is. Look through the koan and see if you think there's something else going on besides basically just a very wonderful, enlightened relationship. As I spend more time thinking about this, the party gets louder and louder. It's a celebration of complete communication and also the pitifulness of words, of language.

[67:24]

And I think, to me, that's why Tse-tan cannot finish praising them because the words are too pitiful. There's just nothing to say. And I hear it two ways. One way is he can't finish because he'll just keep going on forever. Yeah, well, that's the obvious way, but this is a deconstructed way. I thought the other way was also... Yes? It strikes me as how little there is to say when things are peaceful. How little there is to say. Yes. Something of peace has no signs. Yeah, that's case four, no? Case five. That's what's the price of Lu Ling.

[68:41]

What's the price of rising Lu Ling is the celebration of that situation, of the path of peace, of accomplishing the great work of peace has no sign. Denise? So I think, for me, it seems finding the person who's where you're at to play with. It's interesting, but that seems to be my quest, looking for that. I mean, these meetings are rare for a person who's got that same I think it's interesting, too, how Zen has this sense of humor in literature and also its art. Maybe the only gorgeous literature author that I know of has that humor.

[69:49]

Well, I think you're right. Zen does have humor. I think that's really true. But I think that some of the Jewish stories and some of the Sufi stories also have humor. But I think for me, I agree with you, for me, growing up in the Christian church, I didn't see much humor. Almost none of the stories of Jesus or the disciples seemed to have any humor. I couldn't see it. The lens that I saw didn't show me any humor. So when I read the Zen stories, that really attracted me, the humor, the simplicity and the accessibility of the way that... But then, after I went through the Zen door, then I started seeing humor even in the Christian church somewhat. Particularly I found it in the stories of the Desert Fathers, And the stories of the elders of the Russian Orthodox Church, the Staretses, some of those guys had a sense of humor too.

[70:58]

You know, some of these guys who lived out in, you know, around the edge of the towns, some of these guys, some of these gals too, really had a sense of humor. But somehow we have to find, a lot of us had to find the humor in other religions through Zen. Zen was the way we first see that humor has something to do with compassion and wisdom. Is Buddha ever funny? No. That's part of it, I think, is that I wasn't attracted to Buddhism through Buddha. Not because I didn't like him or something, Somehow the Buddha's teaching never really got to me. It was the Zen monk's activity and Zen monk's behavior that was the way for me to get into Buddhism. Now I see, not that Buddha was funny, but that, that they are, they are totally devoted to the Buddha and breathing Buddha's disciple and making the Buddha's teaching available to people in a way that the Buddha couldn't, for whatever reason.

[72:14]

He had to play the role of being Shakyamuni Buddha, an Indian man at a certain time, and there was just no room for humor. I even, one time I thought, you know, about touching people, you know, like Theravadan monks don't touch people. At least not supposed to touch members of the opposite sex. And I wondered if the Buddha ever touched anybody. And I asked some people to look for stories, and some people found a few stories where the Buddha actually touched somebody. So he did touch people. But there's even a debate, you know, about how much the Buddha even smiled. And apparently the Buddha never even laughed, a belly laugh. And he sculpted himself. He always has that wonderful smile. Smiled, he's smiling, yeah. Smiled, but not a big, you know, never like... Kicked your brain. Never... Kicked your brain. Never too far. He... I don't know, he just, he had to play this special role of being the founder, and he was kind of a serious guy.

[73:20]

And... Dogen was too, he wasn't much of a Roy. Dogen... Dogen sort of talks about laughing, but not in a funny way. So we have, we have in our tradition some very important people who are pretty serious. But we also have some important people who really do seem to have a sense of humor. And I think that Kwe Chan's one of them. And I think this lady's one of them, too. And I think that Siddharshi is one of them. And I think that there's some other ones that have sense of humor, too. I think it's very important for us because I think we live in a different kind of culture than some of those times when teachers didn't need to bring that side up. People weren't so heavy and serious in some ways as we are. So teachers didn't play that role.

[74:24]

What's that folk figure from Laughing Buddha with the big belly? I don't know if that came from... May not be traditional, but it worked its way in somehow. Yeah. Well, it's, you know, it's not a Buddha. It's a... It's a bodhisattva. I see. And bodhisattvas, that's the thing about bodhisattvas, can take forms to draw us in to the Dharma. And some of us are drawn in by that. That laughing Buddha is very attractive to people. Just very disarming. People say, oh, Buddhism got that, not so tough, not so strict. I guess I'm welcome. If that guy's welcome, I'm probably welcome too. Somehow he's walking a line in between complete laughter and complete seriousness. Yeah, maybe he's walking a line here.

[75:24]

Yes. What is old world medicine? What is it? Well, one understanding of it is, is that it's, you know, it's really really, it's really really being soft. And like a grandmother. Not like a mother, but like a grandmother. But she wasn't soft. No, she wasn't soft. She was not soft. But again, she was soft. In a relationship with him, she finally got to the point where, after many years of getting this nickname of being, you know, a really tough, really sharp, really dangerous woman, person who would grind people to dust if they weren't up on their Dharma. She became, in this relationship, very soft.

[76:25]

But it isn't just grandmothers that teach Grandmother Zen. And men have to learn Grandmother Zen, too. They have to learn this totally affirming side. Really, really soft. Like Weishan just relaxing and sprawling out of the ground. I'm just calling her old cow, but if someone called me old cow, I would probably feel really intimate with that person. They could feel that they could call me old cow. Yeah. It's just that name is very easy. Yeah. That was a term of praise, you know? Yeah. Basically saying, you're equal to me. Because I'm an old cow, too. I'm an old water buffalo. Is there a song like that? Huh? Is that the song? It's used to be that... The way I've taken it, as we've talked in the last 30 minutes or so, is that this is the internal journey, and that what this story is reflecting is the peace that comes from the balance within, and isn't female.

[78:01]

And how Grishan is in Ironrider, and Ironrider is in Grishan. Well, you should sit. I was just thinking... I've just been thinking that in a lot of ways the relationship that they seem to be sharing was just simply reminding me a lot of Martin Luther's work in his attempt to describe... The situation when we're within the I and Thou relationship, where one cannot see or doesn't experience the other as it, but there's this sharing space that becomes one in that relationship, and it seems that they seem to be sharing that feeling, that kind of relationship, that quality.

[79:14]

And one of the places in the Book of Serenity, which is a direct quote from the blue clip record, is that when letting go, There's just letting go. And when, how does he put it? And when gathering in, there's gathering in. When letting go, they both let go. And when gathering in, they both gather in. That's the exact characters, same characters in the booklet record and the Book of Trinity. The Book of Trinity took that phrase out. So that phrase, I think, is a very good phrase for capturing the spirit of their relationship, that Letting go, they both let go. Gathering, they both gather. They're really working together in both ways.

[80:21]

When they're strict, they're strict together. When they're relaxed, they're relaxed together. When they're assertive, everything they do, they're doing together. So, anyway, it seems, again, it's stunning if you hear a controversy over interpretations here. that all the different teachers seem to be seeing, just a real wonderful celebration and praise of great harmony between two people, two people who worked really hard in practice for a long time and now are very soft, but at the same time not sloppy because they do things together. And when one switches to another mode, the other one's right there with you. In a way, I feel like, sometimes I feel like when I want to go on to the next case, I often feel like it's because I'm having trouble with the case and I want to move on.

[81:32]

In this case, I feel that maybe one week is enough in this case. It doesn't seem like I necessarily need to do another week. Not that I'm in a rush. This would be a very good case to have at the end of the book. Just remember that. Well, look at the end. The one at the end is very serene, too, very big. It's very similar, actually. Are we going to move on out of this peaceful position as if peaceful was born? Are we going to? I'm just saying that I don't know if we need to study this case one more week, unless you feel so. In other words, we could go on to the next case.

[82:33]

And... Usually we're spending more than one week on a case, but we don't necessarily have to, although that's sort of our habit. Usually it takes more, but I feel myself kind of complete with this case, and kind of inspired and happy about it, and I will continue myself to look at the world through this case. This is one of the sets of prasas you can use to look at the world through this case. What does it look like? What does it look like? It looks like Nirvana. That's funny to me. It's like one, you know, I haven't actually, you know, I had a strong take of that this summer yet, but sometimes, you know, years ago when I would go down to the fields during communal work here at Green Gulp, Almost every morning that we've had communal work so far, it's been foggy, I believe. Is that right?

[83:36]

I think so. But sometimes it's not. And I remember one time I walked down the communal work a little late and it was sunny. And so because the sun arises over here, you know, it lights the valley up from the ocean up towards Green Gulch. So you walk, if it's sunny, you walk in the dark And as you walk down, you see the sun up ahead of you. And I walked down in the dark and saw up ahead the people, the monks out in the sun. Some of them in the shade, some of them in the sun. And they're going, making these little sounds, working on their firth. And it just was very clear that there was nirvana. It was right there. all these people just working together in the fields. And there's stories like that, just this is what nirvana is like.

[84:38]

In this world, when people are in harmony like that and nobody's messing around, trying to improve anything, or straighten anybody out, or, you know, we're still suffering, of course, you know, we've got problems, but we're not messing around anymore. There's still dilemmas and challenges and work to be done, but People are just there. And so that's what this case looks like, is a moment like that. Who knows, maybe the next day things were different between them, I don't know. And I don't know who wrote this story down, who witnessed this. After Guishan died, did the iron grinder tell the story about that meeting, or was the attendant there watching? Think about that, too, when you hear these stories. Who wrote this story down? Who remembered this story?

[85:39]

Who saw this story? I don't think there's any people in the future who remember these stories and told people. Maybe they did. So unless there's some... No problem with that. I would suggest you start looking at the next case. I don't have it now. But I'll read it to you. It's kind of an easy one. I mean, it's easy to get the picture. A monk asked Jian Feng, the blessed ones of the ten directions are on one road, the gate of nirvana.

[86:42]

Where is that road? And Jian Feng drew a line in the air with his staff. and said, it is here. And the reason why they call this case, John found one, is this is a Chinese character for one. Just a horizontal line. It's a character for one. Said it went like this, like this. It means one, it means unity, it means this. So he goes, where is Nirvana? It is here. The monk asked, that's the story. That was easy, wasn't it? Yes. I'm not ready.

[87:36]

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