At the beginning, it says here, and I may have said this, debate free from karmic bondage and karmic habits is an oxymoron. I think it would be a better, a more thorough oxymoron to say for you to break free. It's an oxymoron. And then the next one is, it says you can't break free of karmic hindrance by wanting to be free of karmic hindrance. So I think, you know, wanting to be free of karmic hindrance is okay.

[01:10]

It isn't enough necessarily to break free of karmic hindrance, but it's okay to want to. And it says, but I think that what I meant was that, maybe better, you can't break free of karmic hindrance by trying to be free, so change wanting to trying. You can't break free of karmic hindrances by trying to break free of karmic hindrances or karmic bondage. And then it says, to do so, you bury yourself deeper in karma. So to, if I feel myself bound in some kind of prison, to try to break out is part of the prison worldview and just keeps the prison business going very nicely.

[02:23]

But it's okay to want to be out of it, it's okay to wish to be out of prison, but to try to break out of prison when you're in prison, that's actually going to make you deeper in prison. That's what I meant to say. And it says, and it also says, it's not actually possible to break out of karmic hindrances. And there, in a sense, I think I could also say, that's okay. The main reason why it's possible to become free of karmic hindrance is because karmic hindrance is not ultimately real. If it was ultimately real, then of course, there's nothing you could do about it. Now, if there was something you could do about it, fine, do something about it.

[03:29]

But all the things you do about it are more karma. But then the next sentence says, although you can't actually break out of karmic bondage, you can settle in the midst of karmic hindrance. So you could say, well, that's doing something about it. You could say that, but I would say more, it's another kind of response. It's not really a response of the system of karma. Karma is basically the activity that arises when we're ignorant. So you're ignorant. If you're ignorant, you suffer. And then, particularly if you're ignorant of the special variety of ignorance of you and the environment being separate. If you feel that way, that you and the environment are separate, you're anxious. If you feel like you and others are separate, you're anxious.

[04:33]

It hurts to think that you are separate from others. It's painful. And then part of being able to think that you're separate from others will enable you, once you feel uncomfortable about that, to say, something's wrong here, I'm uncomfortable, and I'm going to do something about it. And I can do something about it because I'm separate from others. So, first of all, the sense of separation is painful. The sense of separation is not the sense, the belief that you really are separate. It's ignorance. It's painful. And then you're going to do something about it, and what you do is called karma. What you do about this problem, which arises from believing that you're separate, what you do, that's called karma, and that creates more trouble, which then, now I'm really going to do something about it, and so on. So to settle with the situation is not the same type of response.

[05:41]

It's the kind of response that an enlightened person would make if an enlightened person was plunked into the middle of a karmic prison, which they might be plunked into by their vow to help people who are in prison. So there they are, boom, oh, it's prison, oh, wow. Well, let's have a party. And party means not a party of trying to kill everybody that's causing you trouble and break the prison walls down, but a party of settling with what's happening and coming up with a creative, liberating response. Or rather, settling with what's happening and letting the creative response come up, letting the creative response come forward and blossom. So I'm not going to go through the whole summary, but maybe you could change that part, Diana,

[06:51]

if you can edit your own notes. How are things going? Is it okay what we're doing? Yes, it's great. Is it working? Yes. Okay. Patty's taking care of the website. So, let's see, along those lines, I thought I might talk a little bit about a conversation I recently had with someone, and this conversation has to do with the Bodhisattva precepts and also, I think, the relationship between this thing called student and teacher. This person read this book on the Bodhisattva precepts, which a person she considers to be her teacher wrote, sort of,

[07:58]

and there's parts in the book that she disagrees with. And so, this conversation was about the Bodhisattva precepts, what do they mean and, well, what do you do as a teacher? So there's a whole bunch of stuff there. One is, what do you do if you disagree with your teacher? Of course, what do you do with your teacher if you agree with your teacher? So she disagreed with her teacher and I said to her, you know, the point is not so much that you agree with your teacher, that your teacher's view of capital punishment or abortion or euthanasia,

[09:07]

it's not so much that your teacher's opinion would be the same as yours, but that if you do hear your teacher's views, if your teacher has a view on these things, that you hear that view and then what do you do in response to hearing that view? It's most important that you hear their view. Respect it. Respect where the person's coming from, not necessarily having to agree with them. What's another aspect of respect? Neither accept it nor reject it.

[10:11]

But I would say it's okay to accept it, neither reject it or grasp it. Neither grasping it nor rejecting it. That's also the way to respect what you're hearing. So actually accepting it's okay, because you can't really hear if you don't accept. So you accept it, in other words, this is your view, I accept this is your view. And you might immediately disagree, and that's okay too. So what I would say respect means is the respectful response to anybody, but also maybe your teacher or your student, is to receive what they give, accept what they give, hear what they're saying, listen to them, listen to the cries of the world, and basically everything you hear is the cries of the world.

[11:12]

So listen, accept, and then, actually not even then, and at that same time don't grasp what you hear or reject what you hear. Learn how to disagree with somebody without rejecting what they say. In other words, it could be possible that you would disagree with someone and you wouldn't have to reject what they're saying. It's possible that you would disagree with them, but what they're saying is considerably more helpful than what you think. It's possible. Being open to that possibility that the people you disagree with are considerably more intelligent than you, that's the important thing. It's nice to be intelligent, you know, or as they say, it's nice to be a genius of course, but don't put the cart before the horse.

[12:13]

The horse is non-attachment. So, if you have a teacher that's somebody you're listening to, hopefully, you hear your teacher's opinions, and maybe, if possible, even before you disagree with what you heard, while you're hearing, while you're listening, even before they finish the sentence, you're already in this respectful mode which is not grasping or seeking while they're halfway through the sentence or at the beginning of their sentence. When they finish the sentence, you have just opened to it and not grasped or rejected it. That's what's important in the Buddhadharma, that you're that way with everybody. Then, at the end of the sentence, you can say, guess what, teacher, I got news for you, I disagree. But that disagreement is now emerging from non-attachment. So, I said to this person,

[13:20]

it's not so important whether you agree with me or not. It may be uncomfortable not to agree with me, it may be comfortable to agree with me, but if you don't agree with me and you don't attach to that, our relationship is a Buddhist success. If you agree with me and you attach to it, then we have a more dangerous situation, because now if the two of us meet somebody who disagrees with us and we're attached to this, they're going to get mowed down. So, if you agree with your teacher and grasp it, that's not Buddhism. If you disagree with your teacher and don't grasp it, that is. If you agree with your teacher and don't grasp it, that is. And if you disagree with your teacher and grasp it, that isn't. So, the important thing is that you don't attach or seek when you're hearing anything,

[14:24]

but particularly hearing talk from your teacher. If you have a teacher, the main thing to do with your teacher is give it up. Give your teacher up. Now, you have to have a teacher in order to give up a teacher, though. So you should get a teacher so you can give it up. And when you have a teacher, and then you give up the teacher, then you really have a teacher. If it's a Buddhist teacher. Now, if it's a teacher of self-righteousness, then if you have a teacher, you should keep the teacher and know you've got the teacher and know you have the best teacher and don't let go of your teacher, and then you've learned self-righteousness from that teacher. This person said, you know, you're an influential teacher, you should be careful what you say, you know, you have a strong influence on people. And I thought, well,

[15:26]

I think it's, in some sense, I think a Zen teacher wants to almost have no influence, but the way of having no influence is not by saying things that have no influence, like saying, well, I don't really have an opinion on that. To not even sit on the fence, to like just hide from the fence and just sort of don't say anything. Now, more typically, Zen teachers have strong opinions and strong views, penetrating comments, so that it's a real challenge to you to see if you can hear that strong, clear view and not attach to it. Because some people say stuff and it's so fuzzy and non-committal that you don't attach to it. You can't even disagree with them. So, you don't know if you're not attached. And I don't think the teacher

[16:31]

goes around and says very strong things to people so that they'll be challenged and have the opportunity not, you know, to see if they're grasping in relationship to the strong thing they said. I don't think it's that way. I think it's just that they're themselves and their self is very clear. They have no choice. They're not confused, so they know what they feel about something, so they say it. It's not like they're trying to, like, be helpful. Although they are, maybe. But it's just that there is that clarity because they are what they are. And they know that they can't really, like, be somebody else. That's all that they tried, but they were unsuccessful. So, are you asking how to respond

[17:43]

in a situation where you just went through what you just described? Okay. You missed a few classes, Fred. You missed a few classes. Okay, so the other people will tell you what to do now. Tell them what to do in his situation. The people who have been here the last few weeks. What should Fred do if he has the anger, the fear, and the trying to be respectful and confusion? How should Fred deal with that, folks? Just be with it. And what does it mean just to be with it? Don't push it away, don't grasp it. Don't push it away, don't grasp it. Don't push it away, don't grasp it. You got some confusion there? Got some confusion? Got some confusion? Okay, so don't grasp that confusion and don't seek to get rid of it. Don't seek a better situation. Of course you want to have sublime clarity. That's fine. But don't seek it.

[18:43]

Because guess what? Guess, Fred. Guess, Fred. Guess, Fred. Laughing's good, but guess now, out loud. Say words, talk, speak English. What? It'll eventually go away. That's right. That's right. Also, if you do grasp it, it'll eventually go away. But if you don't grasp it, okay? It's sublime, yeah, that's right. Your confusion is sublime. There's no need to seek anything better than your confusion. Your confusion is sublime. Your confusion is Buddha food. Buddha doesn't say, Oh, pass me some other kind of stuff. I don't want Fred's confusion. I don't want Fred's confusion.

[19:46]

Give me some clarity, Fred. Buddha doesn't talk like that, Fred. If you've got confusion, Buddha takes, listens to that confusion, receives that confusion, and is not greedy about getting more confusion. Doesn't say, Fred, give me more confusion. Whatever you give, that's enough. So, it's true it'll go away, but before it goes away, while it's already here, it's already Buddha food. But it's not to be grasped. Don't grasp your food. I told you about that restaurant I went to, didn't I? No. But on the menu, it says, I didn't tell you? It says on the menu, Do not be afraid of your food. Was that in China? Pardon? Was that in China? I can't hear you. Was it in China? Was it in China? No, it was in San Francisco.

[20:48]

This is a town where probably a higher percentage of people are afraid of their food than a lot of other towns. Especially like in Iowa. I think a lot of people have not yet heard that they're supposed to be afraid of their food. So they eat all that pork and blah, blah, blah. But in San Francisco, a lot of people are afraid of food. That restaurant said, Do not be afraid of your food. And also, at that restaurant, the food was not that bad. Laughter So between the student and teacher, again, you don't grasp what the teacher says and don't reject it. Just listen. And you can disagree without rejecting. Like when you're dancing in a way,

[21:54]

there's certain kind of dances, and in a sense, you could say, like the tango in particular, you could say that the partners disagree with each other. They do different moves. They disagree. They're pushing on each other. And a dance arises out of this disagreement. But there can be great respect while they're doing different things and have different views. But if they don't respect each other and if they grasp each other or reject each other, that also interferes with their difference, giving rise to a dance. So, it's this relationship of non-attachment that produces the wonderful response among people. I have a question. How would it be if you said, I see the possibilities, but that's not for me?

[22:56]

Is that disagreeing, or would that be just sort of thinking, or not grasping? Well, to try to specify in a case like that whether that would be grasping or not is a kind of grasping. So, I can't say. What I'm saying is that, like just right now we're talking, what I'm saying is that the creative response is not from what I say or what you say. It's more what happens when you're talking and I'm talking, when I'm looking at you and you're looking at me, when you're being you and I'm being me, and we're not the same, we're not the same, and we're not separate, and we're not graspable, and we're not rejectable. And then something happens, something creative happens, something liberating happens. We're not in either one of us

[23:58]

in control of it, none of the people in the room are in control of it, but everyone contributes to it. And that way of being we can't get a hold of, and that way of being that can't be got a hold of is non-attachment. So non-attachment is not getting a hold of, but also non-attachment cannot be got a hold of. So you can't say, that's show business or that's non-attachment. But what's being proposed here is the possibility of a way of playing that is creative and we need to not grasp or reject what's happening. And another aspect of this is that when there is realization of this kind of relationship, then there is understanding

[24:59]

that in the past, that those times in the past when we thought we were fighting, we weren't really fighting. In the past, when we were grasping, and because we were grasping, I was right and you were wrong. And I was trying to explain that to you and you just didn't get it and you hated me for talking to you that way. But really I was trying to help you and you didn't understand that I was right. And you didn't understand, but you did understand that I was stupid and that you hated me. You didn't understand that and you also sort of understood that you were looking at me and listening to me so you could figure out that I was stupid and you hated me. But when we both are in the world where both of us have realized non-attachment, we realize that we're in love, that we're harmonious, and that creation is working through us, and also that in those times

[26:00]

in the past when we thought we were fighting, we weren't. We weren't. We were getting along perfectly then too, but because of our attachment we couldn't see it. And Buddha was looking at us the whole time, seeing us get along perfectly well, and knowing that we didn't understand that. But also Buddha seeing these people are going to understand in 2 hours and 55 minutes. Or these people are going to understand in 10 years, and when they understand they'll be happy, and then they'll realize that back now they were also getting along very well. And now we're having various problems with people, so we should accept that. Fine. I got problems. And then after we accept that maybe we could accept I got attachments. And although I can't

[27:03]

not have the problems, I can admit that I think they may have something to do with my attachment. They have something to do with my attachment. I told that story already many times, but I'll just tell a short version of it. When I was 8 years... When I was 7 years old I was playing tag with some boys, and this was back before the women's movement, so the boys were playing tag and the girls were watching the boys play tag. We didn't tell those girls to watch us play tag. They just signed up for it and just sat there and watched us. And this one girl, as I was chasing the other boy playing tag, every time I came near her she'd go, and she did it repeatedly. For some reason or other I stopped playing tag

[28:04]

and ran after her with the intention of punishing her for her... I guess that means you're... I hate you, you're rude, you're stupid. I don't know what. Anyway, it seemed like it prompted me to chase after her with the intention of punching her. Now, I don't know what she thought, but I had this plan in mind to catch her and punish her for distracting me from my tag playing. Anyway, I finally caught her. We lived in this area that was right near a farm. I caught her in a field, a farm field, and it wasn't... there was a corn field, but the corn wasn't tall yet. I caught her. I threw her on the ground, sat on her chest, and was about to punch her in the face. But I don't know

[29:09]

exactly what happened, but I kissed her instead. And she seemed like that was perfectly fine with her. I mean, yeah, she was kind of like, this makes perfect sense to me. You chase me, you knock me down, you raise your fist up, and then you kiss me. That didn't surprise her at all. It's kind of like, I wish I could see her face. Did she give me a signal like, snap out of it, kid. Get the picture? But anyway, that was what happened. No punching. And so... You see, now I see that it was, we were in love during the previous part too. I just didn't get it. Now, maybe she did all the while. Sometimes one gets it before the other. It sometimes happens. Sometimes people realize that, you know. She thinks I'm fighting with her,

[30:11]

but actually this is my weird way of saying I love her, but she just hates it. And then she gets it. And then she forgets it, and then back and forth. The other part of this is about the precepts, like the precept of not killing. Okay, we've got a precept of not killing. So in the realm where we're separate, in the realm where we see that we're different and separate beings, in that realm, where we think we're really separate, we're deluded. And in that realm, the precept is often phrased, don't kill. In other words, in the realm where you're separate, you think, or I think, I can kill something. I can kill something other than me. That's not me. That's separate from me. I can kill these separate beings. And if they're separate, if I kill them, it might not hurt me that much, because they're separate, really.

[31:12]

So in that realm, the precept, the Bodhisattva precept, is don't do that. In the other realm, in other realms, where you're not separate, where you're different, but there's no separation, in that realm, sometimes the precept is phrased, life cannot be killed. It's impossible to kill if there's no separation. That's another way to put it. But I said to this person, but I didn't want to say that a second way in the book, because the first way, at least if people are deluded, the first way is kind of good, because deluded people do sometimes think of killing each other, so tell them not to. But if then you tell them that there isn't really any killing, they might say, well, I guess I can do whatever I want. So in order to say that second part, which is kind of good for people to hear about that, you have to give a lot of context, otherwise they'll misunderstand. So that's what the book's about.

[32:18]

The book's about giving context for unusual perspectives on what it means not to kill. So one meaning of not to kill is it's something you shouldn't do. Another meaning of not to kill is that's really what's going on, is that we don't kill each other. It's not real. But in order to understand that it's not real, we have to practice not grasping and not seeking. We have to respect everything. As we practice respect and practice respect, our eyes open and we see that we can't kill anything, because there's nothing out there to kill. So, if I say, here's a Bodhisattva precept called don't kill, or if I say, I recommend you don't kill, or I recommend don't have an abortion, whatever I say, whatever I say, if you grasp it,

[33:20]

you won't understand what I'm saying. And it's not so much that I'm saying something really smart, or that I'm saying something really stupid. I can say stupid things and you can understand the meaning of that. There's meaning in stupid statements. There's truth in when somebody says something stupid, the Dharma comes there too. If somebody says something smart, the Dharma comes there too. If I say two plus two is seven, there's meaning in that. How do you hear the meaning of it? Well, listen, and don't grasp what I said, or seek that I would say something else. There's also meaning in two plus two is four. Not less than two plus two is six. Not less, but actually the same meaning's there when you don't attach to, well, actually two plus two is right. Two plus two is four is correct. Attaching to that as right, or attaching to two plus two is nine, as wrong,

[34:21]

attaching to that blocks the revelation of the meaning of such statements. So these Bodhisattva precepts are not to be grasped, but are to be related to with respect so that you don't, so that you can receive the meaning. And another meaning of respect is, remember, to look again. So you look at somebody's face, I look at, and I say, that's Bruce, so then look again. So first it's Bruce, because I know his name already, and then it's, then I close my eyes, and look again, and then what is it? What is it? Start over. Start fresh. So, there's Debra, so I look at Debra, and I'll erase Debra, and get that out of there. Now what's there after I erase Debra? That's where the creativity is.

[35:25]

Erase Jonathan. That means respect. Erase Jonathan means erase my idea about him. That's respect. Look again. What is somebody, what is somebody after you, like, let go of what you think about them? Oh, I like her. Oh, I don't like him. Let go of it, and then what? But not what over there, what in between. There's the creativity. There's the meaning of the precepts. You can't grasp it, but it's coming up all the time. It's always there. It's always there. The meaning of these precepts is coming up between us right now. What is intelligence? What is intelligence? Are you grasping for it? I'm curious. You're curious? Are you grasping for it? Yes, a bit.

[36:28]

Okay. Now how is it? It's not much of anything. It's not much of anything. Not much use, huh? The meaning is revealed to you. The meaning can be useful, but the meaning will be revealed to you when you stop trying to use it, when you stop looking for what's useful, you'll start to get the meaning of intelligence. So I'm not going to give you something to grasp onto as what intelligence is. I'm encouraging you to let go of that approach to intelligence and find out what intelligence means. Now that's what I'm telling you,

[37:30]

and do you accept that? Do you accept that, and then after you accept it, do you respect it? And after you respect it, is the meaning revealed of what was happening here? Do you seek creation? It's not over there, by the way. That's grasping land up there. What? Where your eyes went when I asked you if you saw the creativity? You looked up in some place where you could get it. And you can get it, but what you get basically is that way of being which means you forego creativity.

[38:32]

Creativity is there anyway, but if you relate to it in certain ways, you preclude yourself from it. So I'm not talking about making creativity, I'm talking about accessing it by this mode of complete relaxation, this mode of giving up what's useful about reality. Reality is quite useful. If you have any reality, it's like the most useful thing, but if you're trying to use it, you won't get it. You'll push yourself away from it if you try to use it. If you don't try to use it, I mean if you give up trying to use it, it will fill your body and mind and you will be totally realized by it.

[39:34]

Okay, now there's Corinne. And what's your name again? Shannon. Shani? Shannon. Shannon. But before them is Narit, of all people. Where you've been, Narit? In New Orleans. In New Orleans. Jazz Festival. I recently found out, you know, I don't follow basketball very carefully, but I thought what a strange name for Utah to have a basketball team called the Jazz. I thought, wow, why did they have a... Why don't they say the Bigamists or something? But then I found out that their basketball team came from New Orleans. It was in New Orleans for five minutes and then it moved to Salt Lake City. Yeah, because they had jazz there. So you were jazzing it up down there?

[40:42]

Yeah, I guess. Yeah, did you let it go? Yeah. Good. You attempted, but I don't want to know. I don't want to know you're right. Anyway, welcome back to boredom land. I just wanted to mention that I've been reading a book by a man called Eckhart Tolle. Eckhart Tolle? I have heard, but please refresh our memories. He wrote a book called The Power of Now. Sounds familiar. It's very helpful. It's called The Power of Now. Is it new? It's fairly new. You can get it from book people probably. Corinne? Yes, Rep. I don't know if this is too much involved in this question.

[41:50]

Oh no. Really? No, don't worry. There won't be too much unless you talk too long. But so far, you're doing great. When I went to the Zen Center, when I went to Green Gulch, I felt like it was the first time in my life I'd met people who struggled with the same questions that I did and actually had the same answers that I did, if there were answers. And so it was probably the most important place in my life. And then I started having disagreements with teachers there, not my teachers, but people on the roster of teachers. The teacher roster? Yes. Well, those people don't know anything anyway, so... It's the non-roster people that are...

[42:52]

They were kind of harsh, and they talked, and things would get... Messages would get sent between these teachers on the roster, and so now we don't go back to Green Gulch because... So anyway, I asked someone there, should I get involved and say, what the hell are you talking about? You are misrepresenting the situation. This did not happen to me. And she said, no, because then you're going to be digging in your karmic hole. I just made that up. That's not really what she said. I know, but it sounds good. But it was very much like that. Yeah. But I still don't feel like I can go back there, because there are all these people I don't want to see. Well, I would suggest when you become enlightened, go back and help them. But in the meantime... In the meantime, stay away from there and just work on becoming a Buddha, and when you're a Buddha,

[43:54]

go back and test your Buddhahood on those roster people. Because obviously they are like very challenging critters. I'm serious. I am too. Well, I'm not serious. I'm playing. How about you? How do I get back there? Get back where? To Green Gulch. How about here? No, I happen here too. I think you should learn how to play first. Yeah. Learn how to play. That's an important thing, because if you go back there and you don't know how to play, you're just going to get hurt. So the first thing, like I've told this story before, in Judo, I used to play Judo, which means the gentle way, the first thing you learn, and maybe in Aikido too, but the first thing you learn in Judo is how to fall. And the way to fall, you have to be able to fall on the ground without getting hurt. You have to fall in a relaxed way. So if you're going to go play with these roster people,

[44:55]

who are kind of... relaxed way, then you won't be afraid of them, and you won't be tense. And when they come on with their self-righteous, I'm a big teacher crap, you can just go, Oh, I get it. You're the one who knows, you know, and you really mean that. Like, this is like fun, you know. You can like push me around, tell me how wrong I am, because I can listen. And I'm not going to cry. No, maybe you'll cry. You might cry. That's part of what you should learn how to do, is learn how to cry in a relaxed way. That for you, falling might be crying. So like, get kind of like practice, like going... You know, get good at it, so that you don't have a problem crying. You know, practice before you get there. And then when you go and they say, Oh great, now they're making me cry, I'm ready for this one. And you'll be able to cry, fall, get pushed around,

[45:55]

and then you'll wake them up. And they'll wake you up, and everybody will wake everybody up, and then you'll realize that this was a love fest from the beginning, but because somebody tensed up, you know, it didn't, you know... If you tense up when you're playing Judo, you don't learn anything, plus you get hurt. But if you relax, you don't really get hurt. You don't. So I think you need to learn how to relax, or stay away from people who are like those people on the roster. Some people just happen to be very, you know, whatever, easy for you, which is fine. That's okay that you found some people to agree with for a while. That's okay, it's alright. The problem was, I think, now I wouldn't say it, but the problem will be if you attach to being with these people that you agree with these nice people, the non-roster people. If you attach to that, then you tense with them, you get tense with the people you agree with.

[46:58]

These are my pals, these are my... we're, like, we agree, you know, that's what I was saying. You get self-righteous, like, I'm right and they're right. I mean, I'm right and they agree with me, so they're right. So you get this nice little, wonderful, self-righteous little group of whatever they are. Then you meet the roster people and they don't agree. But you're in the habit of being tense about your righteousness, so when they come, they kind of, like, break, you know, it's very jarring. So what you've got to do is, like, maybe practice not being attached and being relaxed with the people you agree with. And then you have a chance to make the transition to the people you don't agree with. And you can keep not agreeing with them, but there's no charge on the disagreement. In other words, you are in love with the people that you agree with, you're in love with the people you don't agree with. But if you tense up, then you get hurt, and then it turns, and you get defensive, and you have to go into Green Gulch for a while. So you have to learn this

[48:01]

in order to get along there. Unless you, like, arrange to, like, stay away from any situation where anybody's going to, like, really interact with you. But fortunately for you, you're not that way. You kind of, like, you know, it's good that you kind of, like, get in situations where people, you know, express themselves to you and you express yourself. That's good. That's good. Now you just have to bring into that complete relaxation. And then you can deal with these farm animals. We still have some farm animals out there at Green Gulch. Shannon, is it? Yes. You were talking just a few minutes ago about the usefulness of reality. And, you know, I've been doing a lot of reading on reality, what reality is,

[49:01]

and the whole concept that reality is simply a construct. It's a projection of who we are. It's the world that we create for ourselves. Projections we put on other people are projections we put meaning that we attach to things that create reality. And so I was wondering if you could talk a little bit more about that. Because while reality in some ways is useful, like, you don't want to step in front of a moving bus. That's reality and you're getting hurt. There seems like there's a dance in between what feels useful in reality to me and what feels like a construct that's keeping me attached to things. I was wondering if you could just talk a little bit more about that. Well, there's two kinds of truths. I don't know about reality, but there's two kinds of truths. One is conventional truth, and conventional truth is thought constructed. And that kind of truth we should study and understand

[50:03]

is just conventional truth and learn to not make more of it than that it's a convention built up as constructs and learn how to not attach to it. Or at least learn how to, first of all, confess that we do attach to it and the more we confess that we do attach to it, the closer we get to the point of letting go of attaching to our constructs of reality. That's the first step. I will parenthetically mention that there is another truth which can't be grasped, which is not a construct, but as soon as we talk about it, it's a construct too. And that truth is revealed to us

[51:05]

when we accept the previous kind of truth as just conventional truth. But as long as we're grasping our conventional truth, we can't see the ultimate truth. And the ultimate truth is ungraspable, but although it's not graspable, it can set us free. And the ultimate truth is useful to liberate us, but as long as I'm trying to grasp it, that mode blocks the revelation. I have to give up trying to get anything for myself in order for this thing to come to me, this truth, which will set me free. And part of giving up... Now, I have this vision of you, and you're thinking about

[52:07]

a lot of things, so I'm going to stop talking because I don't feel like you're listening to me anymore. Is that okay? I think you're processing too much. I'm trying to understand what you're saying. Yeah, so don't do that. Don't try to understand it because then you're re-entering the mode of trying to grasp what I'm saying and take it home with you or figure it out. It's not going to work. You've done that for quite a while. You're probably as good as the next person at it. Now it's time to listen to somebody without trying to grasp what he's saying, and even though what he's saying to you is don't try to grasp what I'm saying. You can understand this, but if you grasp it, you don't understand it. You can let this into you and let this mode of non-attachment take over your life and set you free, but you've got to relax and not try to get what I'm saying to you, just like I'm not trying to get what I'm saying to you. Do you feel the difference?

[53:09]

Yeah. Yeah. This is the way to study truth, and then if you notice you're tensing up around the truth, then confess it and that will help you let go of it again and move back into the mode where you're actually going to understand where these teachings that you're hearing will sink into your body deeper. Okay? It feels like it's about nine o'clock. It's at nine o'clock light. It's only 8.57. What's your name again? Mark. Mark, yes. So, just to clarify what you were saying, when I first started practicing I read a lot and most of it I couldn't understand or appreciate what you were saying, but as I practiced more and more

[54:11]

and exposed myself more, then these points would make more sense to me, more of what you're getting at. Since I read it in the beginning it sat with me as I practiced more and, you know, worked towards this where these things became more clear. I think it's fine that things have become more clear to you, but as I listened to you talk I felt sort of you moving in and out of the appropriate mode of study. The appropriate mode of study is this kind of relaxation. So, you were in it and then you were out of it. You were in it and then I heard you sort of talk about getting back

[55:12]

to getting something. So, at first you couldn't get anything but then when you talked about that you seemed kind of relaxed about that and I thought, well, that's the mode not of getting things but that's the mode of understanding. Just sort of being relaxed about not understanding is the mode of understanding. And then you started getting things but then you were out of it again even when you were getting things and you sort of were out of the mode of understanding even though you were kind of okay with that too but that sort of what sounds like success to you is actually a step backwards. I mean, what sounded like you thought was success namely getting it was actually a step backwards deeper into the usual rut of the things you understand. The mode of revelation is a big change. It's like moving into a realm where you're not trying to understand anymore. You want to understand, of course

[56:14]

but right now you're not seeking anything. You want to understand the truth but you're not seeking it because if you're seeking it then you're moving away from it by that seeking. So, when you started and you didn't understand and yet you didn't take revenge on Buddhism that was more the mode of study than later when you started to understand and get it. That's not so much the mode of Buddhism. That's more like the way you were before you came to Buddhism with the things you understood. So you understood some stuff, we all understood some stuff and we're miserable with our understanding does us a lot of good. So then we go to Buddhism to get a better understanding and that just deepens our problems. But then if you come to Buddhism to try to get a better understanding and you don't and you accept it this is something new. Because before you didn't accept not understanding the good stuff.

[57:16]

You were unhappy about it. Or if you were accepting that you didn't understand stuff you were actually practicing Buddhism before you heard of it. We learn when we accept that we don't know. We learn when we're relaxed being the stupidest kid in class. Or whatever position, we relax with our position that's the mode of learning. The mode of not seeking, not trying to gain anything, that's the mode of learning. That's the mode of realizing the space between us is where the creative response of liberation will come. And your reward will be that all the things you know you'll be released from them. It doesn't mean that now you don't know them.

[58:16]

It's now you're free from what you know. Because you don't have to be free from what you don't know. You have to be free from what you know. For example, that you know your name is Mark. You have to be free of that because you know that. That you know, for example, that I'm over here and you're over there. Yet that's a problem. We have to become free of that. We have to become free of everything that we know. But not by disrespecting what we know, but by not grasping or rejecting or seeking something else from what we know. And just accepting, this is what I know and that's that. You don't have to say, and this is a bunch of crap. You just say, this is what I know and that's that. That's all there is to it. It's nothing more than that. It's not truth. I think it's truth,

[59:18]

but it's not. And it's not a problem. It's just an opportunity to practice love, to practice non-attachment, to practice respect. Everything is. Nothing's not. Okay. So shall we meet again next week? What do you think? Can you come? You can? Well, see you then. Anybody can't come? What are you going to do? Indiana? Well, don't be afraid of your food.

[60:05]

@Text_v004
@Score_JJ