I propose to you again that feeling love and feeling loved is the context for a deep insight work of a bodhisattva and a deep insight is the basis for the realization of a selfless life. We need to be feeling loved and feel love for all beings in order to tolerate the discussion of perfect wisdom. For years it occurred in my life that I was trying to bring forth the teachings of the perfection of wisdom here at Zen Center, the teachings of emptiness, teachings of Nagarjuna, and to a great extent the response I got from people was either sleep or running out of the room or something like that.

[01:15]

But if there's enough love circulating in the environment, people can tolerate these awesome and personally the useless topics. So part of the work of love is to be working within yourself, generating feelings of love for yourself feelings of love, feeling of loving-kindness, feelings of compassion, feelings of joy, and feelings of equanimity towards yourself. And to do that so thoroughly that you're able then to extend it towards others. First towards someone you like, and sometimes, actually in Asia they usually recommend first starting with a teacher,

[02:24]

And I think the reason for doing that is that they don't want you to confuse someone you feel affection for with someone you like. Because actually practicing loving kindness towards people you feel affection for or for whom you have some attraction is a little bit more advanced. So you start with yourself, then work with someone that you have a kind of non-greedy, non-lustful good feeling for. like they do in Asia, and then a teacher. And then work on someone that you feel somewhat neutral towards. And then work with someone that you do feel a strong affection for or a strong attraction to. And then finally work on those who you feel have harmed you, have wronged you, have hurt you, and that you feel maybe some resentment towards. In that way, you develop a feeling of love and compassion and appreciation and equanimity towards all beings.

[03:38]

When you're able to do that, and maybe even before that, you start to notice that also love's coming back from everybody. The more you love others, the more you realize that they love you. Even though they say, I hate you, you understand Because you love them so much, you understand that that's really a joke that even they don't understand. It may not be good to laugh at the joke, though, but you understand this person loves me who says she hates me. And you can see it because you're loved so strong that there's nothing they can do that distracts you from the loving interaction. This is the wonderful loving environment in which we can study something which is so utterly selfless as reality. So that's from the point of view of, you know, you're generating your own feeling of love until you feel it coming towards you.

[04:54]

As I mentioned this morning, an ancient Buddha said that all the Buddhas are practicing together with each person. And so many Zen teachers share the view that the Buddhas And each person and the Buddha and all beings are just one mind. And there's no other reality. There's nothing else going on but Buddhas and sentient beings being one mind. That's it. Shakyamuni Buddha didn't talk like this. or at least if they did, nobody wrote it down. He was completely in accord with this, but for whatever historical reasons, either he didn't talk to people about this point, or being in his presence they felt this, or whatever.

[06:14]

Anyway, in the early scriptures they don't talk about all living beings and all the Buddhas being just one mind. This is something which is brought out later. But the people who brought it out feel that it was totally implied by the Shakyamuni Buddha's presence as a person. I feel that. If you look at him, you can see he's got like Buddhas all around him. And he's completely working with everybody. But he didn't talk like that. So the later disciples of Buddha have made this point. that the Buddhas and all beings are just one mind and there's nothing else going on, actually. And this mind, this one mind is the one mind of Buddha and this mind has no characteristics. There's no characteristics of this mind.

[07:18]

It's beyond all thought and language. But its essence is compassion. Because its essence is that Buddhas and sentient beings are inseparable. There's no sentient beings walking around with lots of Buddhas helping them. And Buddhas have no other work than to be attending to sentient beings. and each other which is no extra work. In this mind this one mind where we're all interdependent and inseparable and non-distinguishable and have no life apart from each other in this mind which has no characteristics and no hindrance and whose essence is compassion There is the ability to respond.

[08:24]

So this mind can respond. There's a responsiveness in this mind. So this mind can respond by manifesting in various ways. So it can manifest in the form of a person. And the person can have a mouth and speak in the language of people that she's facing and she can proclaim the spaciousness and emptiness and uncharacterizable emptiness of the mind and also can proclaim the identity of Buddhas and sentient beings or of this mind and Buddhas. This mind can manifest human beings who can teach this mind. We say Shakyamuni Buddha was one of these beings.

[09:28]

But this mind is really the true body of the Buddha, the dharma body of the Buddha. This mind which has no characteristics. Its essence is compassion, but that's not a characteristic. Now, Buddha's You know, the nirmanakaya of Buddha, the Buddha that appeared in the world, of course Buddha was compassionate. And you can even say, well, wasn't he characterized by compassion? Better not to, but you can do it if you want to. But this mind has no characteristics. This mind which allows the manifestation of the Buddha who can teach. And also we say that this true body of Buddha, this dharmakaya Buddha, can also manifest as beauty. and as bliss and as light. This is the bliss, the beautiful bliss body of the Buddha. So the Buddha can be an ordinary person, even kind of a scruffy looking person like Bodhidharma.

[10:34]

Or it can be a lovely looking bodhisattva, like we picture Avalokiteshvara. But Avalokiteshvara and Shakyamuni Buddha and Bodhidharma are all Avalokiteshvara. Our compassion manifested in response to beings. Yes? I'm very confused how we talk to the true body. How do we get to the true body? The true body is the true mind. The true mind is the true body. The dharmakaya, the dharma body of the Buddha is the one mind where you and I and all Buddhas are non-dual. Okay? One mind, one body, dharma body. Different terms. Okay? Okay? But this one mind can respond. This Buddha body doesn't move, but it can respond to all beings and manifest in whatever form is appropriate.

[11:43]

But even when it manifests as a person, like Shakyamuni Buddha, you know, Yun Men asked his monks, what was Shakyamuni Buddha doing his whole life. And then he answers all his questions himself. He says, an appropriate response. That's what Buddha was doing his whole lifetime as a Buddha. Before he was a Buddha, he was also doing, but he and others didn't realize it. So even when the Buddha takes the form of a person, it continues to respond appropriately according to the conditions of How the process of response is discussed in the Book of Serenity, Case 52. The Zen Master Salishan says, the true body of Buddha, the true Dharma body of Buddha is like space.

[12:52]

It manifests form in response to beings. like the moon in the water. And he says, what's the principle of response? He asks another Zen master. I will discuss with you the principle of response later, after you realize the Dharma body. After you realize the mind, which is like space, we can talk about how you respond. But before that, you have a little training course And the training course is not that you have to get this mind because you've already got it, because that's what the mind is. It's the mind you've already got. The one mind is the one you've already got. The mind you don't already have, that's not the one mind. The one mind is the mind which you and Buddhas are already completely intimate. You can't get any more intimate with that mind. There's no way to approach it.

[13:58]

There's no way to avoid it. That's the kind of mind it is. Okay? It is the entire universe. You can't get away from it. So big you can't get over it. So whatever that you can't get under it. How does it go? So low. It's so high you can't get over it. Is that it? So low you can't get under it. It's like that. So wide you can't get around it. Better come in through the door? Yeah. And in this mind, everything that comes at you, everything that happens to you, is the door. No exceptions. Absolutely. Everything, every face you meet is the door to this mind. Right? Does that make sense? That that would follow? So you can't approach it, you can't get around it and so on. And it has no characteristics.

[14:59]

I mean, you can say whatever you want, but if you say something about it and you think that's about it, you've just defiled it. If you put it in any category, you've done that. It didn't work, didn't hurt it, didn't help it, but you have defiled it for yourself. So... One of the basic stories, pivotal stories, which I mention over and over, is the story of where, what's his name, Nan Yue Huairang comes to visit the sixth ancestor of Zen and the ancestor says, where are you from? And Huairang says, Nansung or something like that. And he says, and the ancestor says, what is it that thus comes? In other words, what's the Tathagata? In other words, what's Buddha? But also, what just came here?

[16:00]

What is the reality that just arrived? And then Huay Rang gives an answer. But remember that the answer came eight years after the question. They don't say, sometimes they just say, The ancestor said, what is it that thus comes? And Huairang says, to say it's this misses the point. But there was eight years between those two. Maybe there were some other responses between those two, where the teacher said, thank you, see you tomorrow, or whatever. But eight years in between for him to come up with this answer which we remember several years later. To say it's this, to categorize it in any way, misses the point, or, I would say, defiles it. Actually, he's going to say that in a minute. So the ancestor says, well, if you can't say anything about it, is there practice in realization?

[17:03]

In other words, is there some way to practice it and realize it? And after eight years, he says, not eight years more, but after the same eight years, he says, I don't say that there's no practice of realization. I don't say you can't practice this this Buddha, or realize the Buddha. I just say, you can't defile it. And the ancestor says, just this non-defilement has been protected and cared for by all the Buddhas. Now you're like this, and I'm like this too. So this is kind of a basic story about the training in Buddha. What is it? Don't defile it.

[18:03]

That's all. You've got it already, don't defile it. Probably he defiled it for eight years, off and on, in many ways. And he found out by himself or with assistance that he had defiled it. He stopped defiling it, finally, and became just like this. And almost all the great teachers from him on, and also from the other side of, the other main side of the Sixth Ancestor's tradition, coming down through Chingyuran, Shingsa, Seigen Gyoshi, both of those two main teachers convey this undefiled way of relating to the one mind and realizing the one mind. Which is, you could say again, a loving way of relating to it. It's not loving to defile things. It's not loving to categorize things.

[19:05]

No, it cannot be defiled. It cannot be defiled. You can only defile it for yourself. You can't, fortunately, it can't be defiled. You can only say it's this and then you veer away from it. Or say it's not this and you veer away from it. Any way you characterize it, you block yourself from it. But human beings have a strong tendency to want to characterize things because without characterizing, we have no idea how to get it. As soon as you characterize something, although it may miss it, at least you've got the characterization. So you don't come away empty-handed. But if you don't characterize it, all you can do is love it. Well, so what? Yeah? Is this capacity to characterize also part of the one mind? Completely. Completely. So the one mind allows us to characterize it and make ourselves feel cut off from it. That level of defilement is part of the one mind, too.

[20:24]

That's right. Exactly. Completely. Never the slightest bit outside. So, one approach, which is more the early Buddhist approach, is study the defilement. And if you understand the defilement, you'll see that the defilement is inextricably intimate with the one mind. In other words, the defilement is not defilement. And I still think that's basically part of the practice, is to admit and be aware of whatever way you're defiling your intimate relationship with your Buddha mind. But what I'm emphasizing also is that without understanding the context of this intimacy and this mutual love, Most Zen students in the 20th century America seem to break down in the study of the defilement because it's hard to tolerate the study unless you understand the context.

[21:30]

Context is very nurturing and supportive and helps you tolerate the irritating work of looking at the defilement, which in fact is inseparable from the Buddha's. The defilement is the purity present in ignorance, right? The defilement is the purity present in ignorance? Yeah. The defilement is the purity present? Well, I guess so. Or the defilement is the ignorance present in purity? Well, okay. I mean, it's all there. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Isn't to call whatever thus comes the one mind, to characterize it? Because we say it has the characteristic of compassion. No, let's not call it that. Let's not call it that. Let's not characterize it by that statement. Let's not say it that way. Don't think of it that way. Don't think that that's a characteristic. Well, compassion would be the characteristic. No, compassion isn't the characteristic.

[22:32]

It has no characteristics. The one mind doesn't have characteristics. It doesn't have characteristics. I guess what I'm trying to say is that to one way or another, our minds always either go in categories of, well, integration or differentiation, saying one, call it mind with a capital N or whatever, it sounds like that's the kind of a substrate for everything else, from which everything comes. Right. So we have to be careful not to fall in that trap, because some people feel that this idea that there is a one mind is like proposing that there's a one mind. Well, there isn't really a one mind. It's just that Buddhas and sentient beings are just one mind. But we're not saying there is a one mind, because one mind is beyond the characteristic of existence and non-existence, too. There isn't a one mind.

[23:34]

It's just that when you have Buddhas and sentient beings, they are just one thing. But that thing isn't an existent thing. Good. He's temporarily relieved. I want to say something else before we go on, since I may never get to it. I see the hands going up. I have something to say before answering more questions. Suzuki Roshi said, you know, this famous statement, you're perfect just as you are, but you need improvement, right? In other words, you're perfect just as you are. He taught on some occasions, not very often, you are both an ordinary person, a sentient being, and you're Buddha. And there's no difference. He taught that. Not very often, but he did say it a few times. And he acted like it.

[24:35]

He acted like we're Buddha, but sometimes he acted like we're sentient beings too. Those stories aren't so famous. Because people know what it's like when someone treats us like a sentient being. But when someone treats us like a Buddha, this is news. So people noticed that very strongly in him, that he could relate to us like we were Buddha, but actually he was relating to us like we were both. That was really what he was doing. And he himself was that way too. Ordinary and Buddha, no difference. And he said... like the fourth ancestor of Zen said, he said, you must always be concentrated on this. Always be concentrated on your ordinary and Buddha. In other words, you should be absorbed in the samadhi of oneness of Buddhas and sentient beings. But he also said, you need some improvement. In other words, you need improvement in your concentration on that And you also need improvement on your awareness of what it's like to be a sentient being.

[25:43]

So we need training as part of this thing. And to a great extent it's basically training in admitting and noticing the sentient being part. Sentient being does have characteristics, originally. And that's the hard part. That's why, again, you need this context of love in order to do the dirty work, the difficult work, of noticing what kind of sentient being we have happening now. What kind of clinging is going on? What kind of suffering goes with that clinging? What kind of attachment? What kind of suffering goes with that attachment? This study is a study in learning, a study in cultivation and non-defilement. But in order to train ourselves in non-defilement, we have to become aware of whatever way we're defiling things. But once again, it's very difficult to be aware of how we're defiling things unless we feel love and loved.

[26:47]

Because it's not pleasant to notice how we're defiling things because that's also connected to pain. It's painful to defile things and it's painful to notice the defilement and notice the pain. It's actually not painful to notice the pain, just that it brings the pain to awareness, which you might have been denying before. So we have all kinds of addictions that we use to turn away from life, which means turn away from pain, or turn away from pain, which means turn away from life. We need to feel a lot of love and encouragement to face our pain. So the cultivation or the practice to a great extent is cultivation in non-defilement. And so many, many Zen teachings are about how to train our mind and body to not defile our experience, which is inseparable from Buddha. But again, that training involves a lot of noticing that we are defiling and we're not able to not defile

[27:54]

So I intend to bring up the examples of many teachers about exercises in non-defilement. But always, if I don't bring it up, remember the context of this bringing our attention to this non-defilement, which means bringing our attention to whatever defilement there is, it's in the context of love. And if you don't have a feeling of love, you have to sort of maybe, say, put the brakes on trying to do that practice. Because, you know, you're not ready for it, maybe, unless you do that. And someone asked me, well, isn't the love ongoing? Yes, and the love is a prerequisite, and it accompanies the practice, and it's the fruit of the practice. It's a through line, this loving feeling. It's a basis for deep insight work. It goes with it, and it's the result of it, or it's the fruit of it. So... Now the questions or comments.

[28:57]

Yehudi, did you still have something? I just wanted to ask if the one mind, does that imply interconnectedness? There's a connectedness between the one... It implies it, yes, definitely. I mean, that basic, the one mind is interconnectedness. No, not at all. The one mind is nothing but the individual. No separation, nothing in addition to that. Right. Yes. Any categorization, any characterization, any signs, anything that you put on it, and say that that's about it. You can, you know, as a joke, you can characterize the mind, but just to actually believe that, that that characterizes it, then you've thrown yourself for a loop. However, you're still completely within the one mind, nothing really happened.

[30:04]

You just have played a little trick on yourself, and you're suffering now. As a result of that, you have just created a wound between your heart and your heart. Yes. Am I saying we have to defile? Well, did I say we have to defile? Well, I don't know if we have to defile, actually. But defilement and sentient beings... sentient beings have to defile, have to characterize. If they stop characterizing, they're Buddhas. But as Buddhas, we don't have to characterize and put signs on things and grasp things. So the ungrasping, uncharacterizing mode of existence coexists with the grasping, characterizing, miserable sentient being.

[31:13]

There are two modes of They're inseparable. But when you're on the Buddhist side you don't have to grasp anymore. However, you are closely attending to those who are grasping and you have no interest in getting away from them and hanging out with better quality beings. Okay? But you, in fact, are not grasping, are not characterizing. You have just put down, you've dropped off your characterizing equipment which is called body and mind dropped off. You're living in the world before you even know how to characterize. You're like a helpless living being, totally innocent, and have no way to stop yourself from loving everything and attending to it wholeheartedly. You have no way to even say, I'm separate from those sentient beings, I'm a Buddha. However, although I say you have no way to say that, you could say that if questioned. you know, intensive interrogation, you might say, okay, okay.

[32:16]

Yes? Could you say that all that is is recognized by unconditional acceptance or that defilement is the interference? I feel like you're trying to grasp something there. But I'm right with you. Yes? I have a hard time when I come to class trying to figure out whether I'm just learning a new language in which to grasp something. Like, how can I come to the class with the attention to... I'm losing the words. You're losing your grasp? Yeah, without intention, because it seems like it's easy for me to come to class and try to learn what you're saying, like this way that you speak. Yes. And isn't that just another story?

[33:20]

Yes. And is there a way to come to these meetings with... I don't know, that trying to understand you seems very important. Yeah. And, you know, trying to engage in the ideas. Yes. And that feels a little bit like getting a new way to try to grasp this little thing. You wouldn't have to take that last step. It could just be more like, I often use the example, excuse me for saying it over and over, I'm in the Narita Airport in Tokyo, and I see this mother and this little boy, little toddler. He's scooting around the airport waiting area, and she's right there with him. She doesn't have him strapped to the chair, she doesn't have him on a leash, and she doesn't let him run around without attendance.

[34:21]

She's with him wherever he goes. She's already got her kid. That's her boy, her little boy. She's taking care of him. She's not going to get any more of him than she's got. She's not trying to get him. She's attending to him. And, in fact, she's learning about him, I suppose. So you attend to what's happening. You attend to it. You go wherever it goes. You don't try to get it under control. You just take care of it. Now, if it's going to fall on the escalator, you catch it. If it's going to bang its head on a sharp piece of furniture, you catch it. But basically, you're just attending. You're not trying to get anything. If you're trying to get anything, you say, bad mommy, trying to get control of my boy. Now, that tendency may arise. Boy, this little guy I'm chasing around is kind of cute. Maybe I would like to possess him and get control. Well, then that's not really attending to him.

[35:21]

That's not attending to him. That's like trying to capitalize on him. Is that your little boy? Yes, he is. But at that time you lose track of your little boy and he falls down. Or you say, hey, come over here. Let me introduce you to this lady. Your attendance thing has gone away and now you're trying to become like the owner of the kid or the owner of the teaching. That tendency may arise, but that's the same thing that you're supposed to be watching. The language you're hearing And all human tendencies are things you attend to. And the way of attending to the non-duality of all beings is the same way to attend to any phenomenon. Namely, you attend to it with an undefiled, balanced attitude, a loving attitude, which is I wonder what this is. I wonder where he's going. I wonder if he's going to fall down. I wonder if he's going to stand up.

[36:22]

I wonder. I'm here. I'm wondering about him. I'm attending to him. I have no agenda for him, but I'm here with him, totally devoted, and totally devoted to something I can't control. I can't control sentient beings. I can't control Buddhas. I can't control the non-duality of sentient beings and Buddhas, but I can be devoted to... everything that I'm aware of. And I can even be devoted to what I'm not aware of. And including that I start to notice that I'm trying to get control of it, I can be attentive to that and say, oh, there's that. Geez, that came too. Okay. Fine. That tendency is not the way of studying. That tendency is something to be studied. The tendency to try to get a hold of this and grasp it. That's not the way of study. That's something to be studied. So, if you're a sentient being and you try to characterize this teaching or characterize this meaning or characterize the Buddha, this is normal sentient being activity.

[37:24]

That's not the study. That's what is studied. That's what Buddhas are attending to, is these sentient beings who are trying to get Buddha. Or, you know, who are kind of like trying to be nonchalant about Buddha. Whatever approach they have to Buddha, Any approach to Buddha is a defilement. And Buddhas are attending those who are defiling their relationship with what they're not separate from. And when you attend to your own behavior in that way, then you're realizing Buddha being there with you. And even if you don't feel like you quite have the feeling for that, still Buddha's there practicing with you in that way. giving you a chance to become Nirmanakaya Buddha. Which would be that you would have a non-attaching, non-gaining attitude towards your own experience. Which means towards the whole world, because that's your experience.

[38:27]

Okay? Okay? I mean, okay without grasping that? Eric, did you have something? Well, you cleared it out when you said... Okay. That's something to be steady. We earlier said something about bad body. Yeah. Yeah, bad mommy, but study bad mommy. So good mommy is just attending to the baby, but then sometimes, like I say, good mommy is attending the baby, and then some whole bunch of people come over and say, oh, you have such a cute baby, and then this thing arises, and oh, it's my baby. Well, that's not attending to the baby, but she slips into that because of all that praise for the excellent offspring she has. Maybe somebody else, and then a Zen monk comes up to her and says, I don't know about your kid, but you are a great mother. Oh, I am? Then the baby falls down the escalator. Yeah. Okay, what time is it? Time to cook lunch or anything? Not quite? Yes. Liz. Excuse me, the guy said, she said the experience of seeing our self-clinging is painful.

[39:44]

It's actually seeing our self-clinging, you see that self-clinging is painful. It's not seeing self-clinging that's painful, it's the self-clinging that's painful. And so you can see self-clinging is painful. That is not painful. That is actually the beginning of relief. Because you're seeing first truth and second truth now. Pain's involved, but isn't the vision that's painful? It's the clinging that's painful. So when you... And that vision can be the same vision that sees, oh, clinging goes with pain. Okay? That same vision can see end of pain. And way of end of pain is seeing how pain arises from clinging. Okay? Excuse me for that adjustment. Do you want to say more?

[40:47]

Could you follow what I said? Yeah. Were you going to say something else? Can't remember? No, I do remember. So, in pain, in my own experience, in pain, the vision gets lost. In pain, your vision gets stuck. Right. So, in pain, I tend to shut down or my vision gets lost. In other words, in pain, I start wiggling. Right. And when you start wiggling, it's hard to see what is the conditions for the pain. That's why we have to practice the big P. Huh? Yeah. So you're in pain, you have to go to the center of the pain. You know, there's all these flames of pain, you know, when you're out on the edge of the pain, you're kind of like, you know. And who's at fault? Who can I blame for this? And so on. This makes it hard to see when you're trying to blame somebody or get control of the flames because they're not controllable.

[41:59]

So you have to practice patience, which means you go to the center of the flames of pain, right? And sit in the middle of the pain. And in the middle of the pain, you'll notice there's a whole bunch of Buddhas there, too. They all hang out at the middle of the pain. They're all squished in there at the center of the pain. Right? And you get there and you find you have company. And what is it? What's his name? I think his name is, again, Yuen Men says, a cool breeze rises on the eyebrows. Still there's flames all around you, but there's a little bit of relief there. And you're still in the middle of the pain. Now you're practicing patience. Your patience is working. Now, from the point of view of patience in the middle of the pain, your vision comes back and you start to open up again. But it's natural for human beings to cringe and contract in pain. Cringe, contract, wiggle. And that means our equipment closes down. We can't see, we can't understand. So we have to practice patience so we can open up.

[42:59]

Patience means the energy you're using to fight the pain is now available to your life. That's why enthusiasm comes up out of patience. Okay, here we are in the middle of pain. All right. Ah, some air. Okay, there's still air. Okay. Oh, and then I could practice. I could look at this now. That would be neat. You start to feel good about the practice again, even in the middle of the pain. Pain's still there. You still haven't understood completely, but you can start looking. Okay? Any new timers? Yes? Is it possible to feel universal compassion without feeling personal compassion? Is it possible to feel universal compassion without feeling personal compassion? No, it's not possible. There's not like universal compassion minus one. I mean, there is universal compassion minus one, but that's not universal compassion.

[44:04]

That's universal compassion with a major dent in it. And that one could be you or it could be your worst enemy. Nobody gets excluded from universal compassion. Nobody. Usually you start with yourself. Because usually we start with ourselves with everything. So in these practices of compassion and love also start with yourself. The Buddha said, and there's two ways to translate it, he said, I looked over the world in my mind and I couldn't find anybody that I love more than myself. Another translation is, I looked over the whole world and I didn't find anybody, including me, who didn't want happiness for himself. Everybody wants happiness for themselves. It's a natural thing. It's like reality that we want happiness for ourselves and it's reality, and by reality I mean it's happiness to realize that we want happiness for others.

[45:13]

Buddhist truth maybe you could conceivably imagine that you could argue with it on some basis, but the main thing about Buddhist truth is that it's happiness. It may have some other defects, which it doesn't, by the way, but, you know, you might think, well, maybe blah, blah, somebody could say such and such, but the point is that before we get into that, it's already happiness. That's Buddha's truth. It's relief from pain. So happiness for you and happiness for others is what it's about. And there's no exceptions for the Buddha, no exceptions. because everything's interdependent, right? There's no way to pull anything out of the net of interdependence. There's no way to do that by this teaching. Now, if you want to say another teaching, which is some things are interdependent, and then we've got another world where things aren't interdependent, fine. This is kind of, maybe that's fun. But what do the Buddhas mean by myself, by themselves, when they have no personality?

[46:17]

Oh, it's not that they don't have a personality. Didn't you notice that Shakyamuni Buddha had a personality? No. Personality is just personality. But to think that personality is like something by itself, like you got this Elka personality over there, cut off from, you know, David personality and Rosie personality, that's delusion. But the Elka personality, actually, this Elka personality is, you know, we needed all of Bulgaria, all of Romania, all of Turkey, all of David, and all of Rosie, and all of me, and all the Buddhas to have this Elka personality. This Elka personality really is nothing but the entire universe. How so? How? No. Right, but no doesn't mean there isn't any. It just means no independent mind. It's just your mind is not independent of mind.

[47:23]

Your mind is not independent of mind. That's what no means, no independently existing mind. So like, what is it? When the little Dungsan heard the Heart Sutra, right, chanting, no eyes, no ears, no nose, no tongue, no body, no mind, he said, but I have eyes and ears and a nose and a tongue and so on. Why does the sutra say, I don't have them? It's just that you don't have an independent nose. Your nose is nothing but the whole universe. If you think there's a whole universe, and then there's a nose on top of it? In the ordinary world, in conventional reality, there's the whole universe, and then there's your nose. And the little kid knows that. Here's this nose. This is like, here it is. Here's my ear. And they can think, there's your ear, your ear, your ear, your nose, your nose, your nose, and then my nose and my ear. This is conventional reality. And we need to recognize that.

[48:23]

But in emptiness, there is no nose in addition to the universe. If you have the whole universe, that accounts for my nose. And that's what Buddha says when Buddha says, I. He means the I which is due to the kindness of all beings. And there's not anything in addition to that. There's just your nose, which is inseparable from all the Buddhas. And then that nose, you can say, my nose. Stinginess is created by all things, yes. And this is hard for people, but sorry. I mean, not really sorry, but I sympathize with the difficulty, which means everything, all defilements, all cruelty, is equally as... radiant as all goodness because all cruelty is due to the entire universe and nothing but the entire universe. A cruel person, the true body of that person is the entire universe.

[49:29]

The true body of a kind person is the entire universe. Both beings are equally radiant. One is happy, the other is miserable. But the miserable, cruel person is as radiant as the happy, kind person. They're equally radiant in Buddha's eyes. Buddha does not prefer one over the other. However, the Buddha is working to help the cruel, unhappy person realize the truth. And the Buddha will not stop working and teaching over and over until this cruel person understands the truth. And the Buddha will not become impatient with this cruel person who seems to be resisting the lesson. Okay? Okay? The Buddha does not prefer enlightenment over delusion. Suffering people prefer enlightenment over delusion. Or some of them actually prefer delusion over enlightenment.

[50:29]

Buddha doesn't prefer delusion over enlightenment or enlightenment over delusion. Okay, so anyway, I wanted to give some practical examples of training, if I can. And this is like... Big topic, but let me introduce it, and then we can deal with it over the endless future. This has to do with the practice of right speech. This is part of the training in selflessness, which I might parenthetically mention that the word cult and the word culture have the same root. Cultivate. The Latin cultus is the origin of the word cult and culture, which means to cultivate. Okay, so I just wanted to say, one of the main, oh, I have this little card which reminds me of this.

[51:32]

This is a card of Tassajara. We don't know exactly the date, but I misread it and I thought it said, there's a group of people sitting in front of the stone and pine rooms under the trees, and I thought it said, gossiping at Tassajara. But it says actually, under the gossip oaks at Tassajara Hospital. Did you know there's gossip oaks out there? Now, did they get that name because the people gossiped under them? I don't know. But anyway, there's a longstanding tradition at Tassajara of gossip. And I would like to gently suggest that we all drop it. Gently, patiently, kindly drop gossip. Or at least let people who are trying to drop it, drop it. And there are some people here who are trying to adopt gossip. Now what do I mean by gossip? I mean when you're talking to somebody in such a way as to distract yourself from your life.

[52:35]

That's what I mean by gossip. Or idle chatter. If I'm suffering, if I'm anxious, and I'm aware of it, I'm not turning away, and I'm not, you know, I'm aware of it, not indulging in it, not wallowing in it, just aware, hey, I'm anxious, and I think I have a feeling for my reasons for being anxious. Something to do with some attachment, some place around here, some concern for me. Okay, I got that. This is, I think, good if I feel my anxiety and where I like that when I'm aware of it. I feel grounded. I feel like I'm attending a little anxious boy, you know? Good mommy. Just to take care of this anxious person. This is my life manifesting as anxiety. Buddha was anxious. I don't mind. I'm anxious too. I'm like Buddha. Buddha didn't turn away from anxiety. I want to not turn away from anxiety too. Just like Buddha. That's my practice. Now, if I talk to people and I notice that my talk is about your haircut, baseball, the weather, and I notice I'm using that conversation to turn myself away from my awareness of what's going on with me, then I call that, for me, a distraction, a verbal addiction, idle chatter.

[53:57]

So maybe I feel uncomfortable anyway, plus I feel even more uncomfortable running away from my discomfort with chatter. I feel like I'm betraying my practice to try to get away from what's happening. Or maybe I'm not even trying to get away from it, but as soon as I start talking this way, I start to notice I'm going away. So I say, no, I don't want to go away. I want to stop now and pay attention to the conversation and listen to the words without losing my feet on the ground. See if I can like, okay, I'm here and also I'm talking. It's not easy, but I can barely do it. As a matter of fact, just wait a second here. I can't go on with this conversation. Just give me a second. Okay, I'm back. And some people are trying to work on this here. And they're having a hard time anyway without even talking to people. But when they talk to people, it's hard for them to like continue this mindfulness of what's going on with them with certain kinds of conversations. Maybe too fast or Whatever, anyway, the conversation is taking them away and they want to say, could you excuse me, I can't continue my meditation and participate in this conversation.

[55:12]

Or could we stop for a second and breathe together for a second. Or something like that. I'm not saying you're doing idle chatter, I'm just saying that for me this conversation, I am starting to move in the direction of idle chatter and I don't want to do this. You know, I have these interviews with people. And in that interview, it's OK not to do idle chatter. So I'm lucky, right? I get to spend all this time with you and not do idle chatter. And if idle chatter starts to develop, I can say, you know, Time out. Let's stop for a second. And so now you tolerate that more or less. And you can also do it too. You can say, shut up. Please stop. I'm losing my footing. I'll stop. But any time you're talking to me, if you're losing track of your feet on the ground, and you want to stop to come and say, just like this, I'll stop.

[56:16]

I want you to be there while we're talking. I don't want you to be swept away by what I'm saying or what you're saying. You can stop me anytime, I'll stop. But I'd like to actually suggest that we could do that with each other. If we're talking, even in work, if the tenzo is giving you an assignment and you're losing track of yourself while you're giving the assignment, you can ask the tenzo, could you say that again, please, more slowly, so I can be here for you when you say it. Or the work leader, or the ieno, giving instruction to the don. So the don is giving instruction to the other people, but serving is long. You can say, wait a minute, Okay, please, once more, please. I want to, like, be here and stay present while you say that. Or I have to stop talking because I'm losing track of myself while I'm talking. I can't feel my body and my breath now while I'm talking, so just... Okay, now I'm back again. Okay, what's going on? So could we allow each other to do that, and could you allow other people to tell you that, that they want to kind of, like, maybe...

[57:21]

They can't go on with the conversation, excuse themselves from the conversation, which they're losing their meditation. Could we allow ourselves to do that for the times when we are talking? A lot of times we are silent, so it's not really an issue. We have to work with ourselves in whatever kind of chatter that's going on. But the basic thing is, does the conversation take us away? And I have a very close friend, and we're good friends. We've been talking to each other for a long time now. And we can have fun with what's maybe called banter. But we notice that certain kind of banter, even though it's not mean, and it's just like verbal ping-pong, it tends to take us away from intimacy. And when it comes to intimacy, we kind of have to talk more simply and more slowly, and maybe not quite as interestingly. But kind of like, In a more tender space, you have to be more careful what you say to each other. So, I guess I'm asking you to consider for yourself and consider allowing for others that we move into a more tender, gentle, intimate form of speech with each other.

[58:37]

And either give up for yourself and or allow others to give up idle chatter during the practice period and have nothing but doksan. between all of us. And I know it's a tender topic. I don't want to make this too heavy, but actually there's lightness in this too. But it's kind of serious in a sense, certainly sincere, that we really would have Dharma conversations between each other, no matter what we're talking about. The topic could be anything. The question is whether you're really being intimate. what's going on with you and we are listening to the other person so i asked that of you on behalf of some people who are struggling with this but also i think it's just really a good idea to protect each other's space to be intimate with what they're saying and listening to yes this one issue okay i know i'm one of the worst practitioners

[59:41]

But one thing comes to mind, though, since the other day, I hear some people in conversations, especially when it comes from authority, sometimes hide behind this, you know, this conversation. Or after they've had their say, and you want to reply to them, and then they might say, That's the end of the conversation after they've already had their say. Yes. There's not too much fear to play. Well, in that case, how would you feel at that time? If the example you just gave of someone talking to you, they're done with what they say and they don't want to talk anymore, how would you feel at that time? How might you... You might feel bent. Well, I feel that if you feel bent, you might sincerely, in a non-chattery, non-bantery, non-idol way, you might say, may I say something to you now?

[60:48]

If you felt like it, if you felt like it would be helpful. And then if they say yes, then you might pause for a minute and say, thank you. I just want to think, I want to check something out before I say anything more to myself. I'm going to check out to see. Is what I'm about to say true and harmless? Or is it true and maybe like devastating? Now I checked out what I had to say and actually I think I don't want to say it because I don't think it'll be helpful. But I appreciate you giving me the chance to say it. And maybe you could give me another chance some other time. I might have something else to say to address what just happened. But I feel like your example is not a new response. You wouldn't necessarily come back with idle chatter. You might come back with harsh speech. If you felt like they took all the airspace and didn't respect yours, you might feel hurt, disrespected, and perhaps in pain. And then you might be susceptible to being angry if you don't practice patience.

[61:57]

But if you could practice patience and be clear, you might have something to say that would be helpful. Doesn't sound like that would necessarily be eye-opening. Now, sometimes, too, in cases like that, we get hurt. is we move into idle chatter as a kind of way to, as some people, some person said, blow it off, you know, like, hey, this, you can, you can trounce on me and, you know, assert your, your position on me and I'll just like, I'm the way to laugh that off. The kind of condescension, although you have authority, I have humor and I'm like, if it were a joke, put a joke on you. That's a kind of idle chatter. In other words, you're turning away from the fact that that hurt. I didn't, That just hurt, you know, now I have to deal with that pain. How you doing? Good, thank you. See, now it's at 10, 10, so we should stop now, right?

[63:02]

Isn't that about when you want to stop? So this kind of effort is a way you attend to the sentient being. You train the Buddha sentient being intimacy by watching the talk that's going on. Be careful of speech. Practice right speech. and then practice speech in relationship to the forms and regulations and the ceremonies of the monastery.

[63:48]

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