Some people feel that you can look at the Buddha's teachings as recorded in the Pali scriptures as being divided into two different matters. One is matters of morality and the other is matters ultimate truth. And one, what would you call it, rough and ready way to characterize discussions about morality is that they're for people who are still holding the view that everything exists.

[01:01]

Or the teachings of morality are for those who are what we call the eternalists, the people who believe in eternalism. In other words, that permanent self. So the teachings are phrased in terms of this person does that, or this person doesn't do that, or you should do this and you should do that, shouldn't do that. And the other kinds of teachings are teachings about the ultimate things, which are either to help people become free of the theory, the view, the... the philosophy of eternalism or believing in a permanent self, or they're phrased in a way that doesn't relate to that.

[02:15]

So another way to talk about this is that there's two kinds of right view. There's mundane right view and, excuse the expression, super mundane right view or maybe the noble right view. And once again, sometimes within one scripture the Buddha presents the noble right view and the mundane right view. One scripture I have in mind is where the Buddha teaches the Eightfold Path, and the Buddha teaches the Eightfold Path, and he says right view is that there is, you know, mother and father, that there is a world, that there is karma, well, actually he said that there is results of karma, there are people who attain the way,

[03:25]

There is rebirth. This is right view. And then he says, this right view, this is right view. Wrong view is, there isn't a mother and father. There isn't results from karma. Karma doesn't have fruit. There aren't people who have attained the way. There isn't rebirth. Okay? So, this right view in some senses is the birth the view everything exists. There is a self. So the Buddha actually taught there is a self, and that's right view, that's mundane right view. There is rebirth. Karma does have result. This could be called mundane right view. Matter of fact, I think Buddha calls it mundane right view. Wrong view is the opposite. So wrong view is kind of like annihilationism. Nothing exists. There isn't karmic results.

[04:28]

You don't have a mom and dad. There isn't a self. This is annihilationism. This is not most people's problem. But anyway, some people do have that problem to some extent. I'm saying it doesn't matter what you do. There isn't a self anyway. Blah, blah, blah. But that's wrong view. Right view is practice. If you have the view of eternalist, if you have the view everything exists and you should practice the precepts and you should, you know, not harm beings, you should help beings, all that kind of thing. This is morality. This is right view. And then he says, this right view is beneficial... is meritorious, is worthy, and brings results back to the one who is imagined as doing these good things or having this view.

[05:30]

Okay? Does that make sense? No? No? Anyway, but then he says, but this right view is tainted. It doesn't say how it's tainted, but it is tainted by the belief in self, by the belief that the self inherently exists. There's another right view, which also says these things exist, but without the belief... in the self or without the belief in inherent existence. And that right view is beneficial, blah, blah, blah, blah. But then he doesn't say that the benefits of this right view come back to the one who has this view, because there isn't that one in this view. And then he says this view is untainted.

[06:31]

And then he says the same thing for right intention, right action, excuse me, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration. In each case, he says, this is the wrong view, this is the wrong livelihood, this is the wrong speech, this is the right speech, and the wrong speech is lots of bad stuff, the right speech is lots of good stuff, and the good stuff comes back to the one who does the right speech, but is tainted. But still, for those who have this view, he recommends this Eightfold Path. But the Eightfold Path that's tainted is not the Noble Eightfold Path. The Noble Eightfold Path is the Eightfold Path that's untainted, that isn't done under the auspices of belief in the inherent existence of self, or belief in inherent existence.

[07:36]

So that sutra actually mixes the two together in presenting the Eightfold Path. So one way I thought of that sutra is you go through the Eightfold Path in this mundane way, and maybe by the end of one circuit of the Eightfold Path, or as you become more and more knowledgeable of the mundane Eightfold Path, you're ready for the Noble Eightfold Path. these two sutras that we actually have here that we've been chanting, the first one and the second one, particularly the second one, is a sutra or a scripture addressed not to the eternalists or those who believe in the self, but it's addressed to the ultimate truth. And

[08:39]

I hope I can say this briefly, but sometimes some people would consider this kathayana gota sutta as a hinayana sutra. In other words, it might have been directed to what we call hinayanas. And hinayanas are people who are only concerned with their own liberation. Only concerned with their... Anyway, primarily concerned with their own liberation and primarily But a Hinayanas can still be enlightened. And if this is a sutra which is directed to Hinayanas, it is also a sutra which entails liberation. In other words, it's about ultimate truth. The thing that makes Hinayana or Mahayana is motivation. So if one had to a narrow motivation, this sutra could still liberate that person.

[09:49]

So the right view in this sutra that Kajiyan is asking the Buddha about, the Buddha responds to the question about right view. I guess he thinks Kajiyan is not... Well, to put it positively, I guess he thinks Katayana is ready for him to talk about the ultimate right view or the highest right view. So in some sense, at the beginning of the sutra, he teaches an emptiness because he's teaching him to relinquish all views. Emptiness is to relinquish all views. So he's suggesting that he relinquished these views of everything exists. In other words, you relinquish the view of the inherently existing self and also relinquish the view that there's no self at all. And this kind of relinquishment

[11:00]

this uh... not getting involved in either of those extremes and almost everyone is uh... almost all people are involved in at least one of those extremes and again as we've seen i guess some of you have seen that if you had been involved in the extreme of everything exists, if you had been clinging to the belief in the inherent existence of your person or the inherent existence of your psychophysical experience, and if you were not able to do that anymore, if you saw you couldn't do that anymore, some of you have flipped to the other side and said, well, then there's nothing. So oftentimes this... Annihilation position is the reaction to not being able to do the eternalist. When you can't believe in permanence anymore, you sometimes flip to the other extreme of annihilation. But to let go of both of those positions is to realize emptiness, which everybody's working on that right now, right?

[12:16]

You're working on... letting go of these extreme views. And whether you've found them or not, you're still kind of like signing up for the course of letting go of these views if you should ever run into them. So the teachings which address the highest right view are teachings which are not just affirming conventional existence. Because mundane right view is to affirm conventional existence, is to affirm conventional truth. Yes, there is conventional truth. That's mundane right view. It's mundane wrong view. or what you might call super-mundane, no, not super-mundane, under-mundane, uber-mundane, no, under-mundane, below-mundane, to not even accept conventional truth.

[13:29]

Mundane right view is to accept conventional truth, and super-mundane is not to reject conventional truth, it is to relinquish it. And to relinquish it to relinquish it, to let go of it. So you're already holding on to it or you're in a worse situation of having trashed it and holding the other extreme. So you're already holding on to it, so just letting go. But it turns out we won't let go until we look at it and see that it's not possible to let go because we have a strong holding on habit and we won't... that habit won't stop unless it has to. So we want to make it necessary, we want to make this happen. We want this to happen. So the other kind of ultimate truth type of teaching is the teaching of dependent co-arising.

[14:35]

So this sutra also has the second kind of teaching. So the first kind of teaching is relinquishment teaching, is letting go teaching. teaching to encourage you to let go of your views of existence and non-existence, to let go of your belief in inherent existence and to not grasp your belief in no existence at all. The first part of the sutra is encouraging us to let go of the belief in inherent existence and not grasp the belief that there's no existence at all. Then the next part of the sutra, the Buddha says, without approaching either extreme, in other words, relinquishing both of these extremes, the Tathagata teaches you a doctrine of the middle. So, this doctrine of the middle is not really separate from or differ from letting go of these extreme views, it is also a middle way between these extreme views, but it's now going to present something which is more than just letting go of views.

[15:52]

It's going to offer you something synthetic. Namely, it's going to draw a picture of how suffering arises and ceases. He's going to teach you how suffering arises. He's going to teach it in a way that also accords with relinquishing these extremes. But so far, you just relinquished the extremes, and that's all you've got now is relinquishment, which is pretty good. You've realized emptiness. But now he's going to teach you how things happen in the context of not grasping either of these extremes. And how do they happen? How do things happen? Things happen. How do things appear? How does experience arise?

[16:53]

Well, It arises. How does experience arise? How do appearances appear? They appear dependent on ignorance. And then dependent on ignorance, We have karmic formations, depending on karmic formations. We have consciousness, depending on consciousness. We have psychophysical, or we have the five aggregates, name and form. Name and form is a nickname for the five aggregates. Depending on the five aggregates, we have the six sense fields, or sense doors. Depending on the sixth sense doors, or the sixth senses, we have contact, which means contact between the sixth sense capacities, the sixth sense fields, and consciousness, the sixth sense consciousnesses.

[18:13]

Then, dependent on this contact, we have feeling. And dependent on feeling, we have craving. And so on. Depending on craving, we have clinging. And depending on clinging, we have becoming. And depending on becoming, we have birth. And depending on birth, we have aging of that which was born up to a point of extreme aging or extreme traumatic consequences to the little birth item. And then we have finally like total collapse and giving up on the whole thing. But, you know, under pressure. Not like, you know, a calm relinquishment. It's like, oh, yeah, I have enough of this. And then ignorance arises again.

[19:19]

Because ignorance, all ignorance needs is a little death. A little, what do you call it, being fed up is enough for ignorance. It doesn't mean to say ignorance arises dependent on being fed up. Anyway, then this is the cycle of suffering. It goes round and round. And this is what I would like to start studying for the rest of the practice period. to now balance the study of emptiness with the study of dependent core arising. So the two main teachings of the Buddha in terms of, well, there's these two styles of teaching. One kind of teaching is for people who are like, still holding on to a permanent self. Okay, well, be good, be good, be good. Come on, follow the schedule.

[20:20]

And if they follow the schedule, then uh maybe they're ready for a teaching about emptiness now you follow the schedule now please relinquish all your views what views find them and then when you find them show me now we'll talk about relinquishing them and now in addition uh we're going to teach you how the how the world of suffering arises and ceases and how to practice with both of these kinds of teachings. So the way to practice with the first kind of teaching is you, well, you've heard this teaching about emptiness. You've heard this teaching about relinquishing, not approaching views of everything exists and everything does not exist. And the way you study these teachings is with a mind like a wall, right? Now the mind like a wall is the way to study these teachings.

[21:30]

It's the mode in which studying is teaching. Now, if you work on this mind like a wall, or if you train yourself thus, as the Buddha said, you know, just letting what is heard be what is heard, and so on. And if you sustain that kind of attention, you become calm. Finally, you know, very calm. But even before the calm is fully established, it still is a good way to be practicing with life anyway. So when the Buddha said, train yourself thus, in the herd there will be just the herd, and so on, up to in the cognized there will be just the cognized, he then goes on to say, you know, And this will be the end of suffering, this kind of study.

[22:36]

So this way of training yourself is a way which can calm you if you can sustain that kind of attention, but also it's a way that you can listen to the teachings and see the teachings and understand the teachings and become free of suffering. The... I don't... I don't feel like, you know, the teachings of relinquishing these extreme views necessarily implies this kind of meditation practice of in the scene, there will be just a scene, or not getting involved in what's happening for you. But in order to understand those teachings... of emptiness. I think you need to be this way. But the teaching of dependent core arising kind of does suggest that we practice this way. And just to have an easy start in studying dependent core arising, I would go to the middle of the cycle where it says

[23:55]

Dependent on contact, feeling arises. So you go right to that link, to that connection in this process of the arising of suffering, which says, dependent on the contact between sense organ sense field, and there arises consciousness. And when those three are in contact, depending on those three being in contact, a feeling can arise. So this is the dependent co-arising of a feeling based on this kind of contact. If we start this study by just going to that point, then what we have here is When something's heard, there is contact between the ear, organ, sound, and consciousness.

[25:10]

That's contact. To be present at that moment and not get involved in this event is contact. Contact. [...] To not get involved in these sounds, in these smells, in these colors, in these shapes, in these smells, in these tastes, and in these cognitions, these mental things. To not get involved. To not activate the mind around these contacts, around these objects. This is Bodhidharma's instruction. This is Buddha's instruction. And this instruction is implied if you look at this chart, at this teaching. Because if you don't get excited, if you don't activate the mind, if you don't get involved in sense contact, feeling will not arise.

[26:14]

So, that's the end of suffering. the entire mass of ill will not arise. So this isn't the entirety of Buddhadharma. This is just something which you've already been working on, and you might have already noticed that this practice can be used as a basis for samatha. If you can sustain this kind of effort, you can become calm, really, really very calm. But even before you can sustain it, in one moment of mind like a wall, In that moment, that particular moment, if you really do not get involved with the point of sense contact at this link in the arising of suffering, at that moment suffering does not arise. And one, there's different ways of understanding dependent co-arising, but one way is in the dependent co-arising of suffering in this moment. In this moment suffering can arise when you simply, at the point of contact,

[27:30]

You do not discipline your mind with this training. And in the herd, there's not just the herd. So then there's feeling. And there's feeling, and then there's craving. Just like that, boom, feeling, craving. Very fast, feeling, craving. Very fast, feeling, craving. Then there's feeling, craving, clinging. Also very fast, feeling, craving, clinging. Then there's feeling, craving, clinging, becoming. Becoming means intensifying that clinging. And then there's birth. Birth of what? What gets born in that moment when there is not this discipline, when there is not this mindful non-involvement with sense contact? What gets born? What? No, not yet. I mean, it's that the suffering will be born, but suffering will arise. It will arise. But what gets born?

[28:33]

Huh? What? No. What? Self. That's where the self gets born. Right there. Each moment, the self gets born. The karma has already happened before this. Ignorance, karma, consciousness, five aggregates, sense organs, contact. See how it goes? Ignorance, karmic formations, consciousness, psychophysical experience, organs, contact. Now, that's when it really hits. Boom. That's why this is a good place to start studying this. Is that where it hit? It comes and boom. Don't get involved. If you do get involved, though, it's very fast. Feeling, craving, clinging, becoming, birth of the self, and then poor little self now born of getting involved, feeling, craving, not just feeling, now craving,

[29:45]

Clinging, coming, now this self's born, and now it's just going to be trouble from now on. But now on means for this moment, now you've got this poor little scared self. This self is suffering. This self is aging, vulnerable to aging and vulnerable to aging in many, many ways. The aging that you're going to go through, who knows? But now you're worried about all the different ways you're going to age. You're worried about all the heart attacks you might have. And finally, it's all over. And then another one comes. Ignorance because of ignorance. Ignorance is going to give you another chance. Here it comes. Karmic formations. Self. Well, suffering. And here comes another one. ignorance. So, this whole thing wouldn't happen if that view of self wasn't there in the first place. But this way of practicing with this teaching is the same way of practicing with these views, basically.

[30:57]

But it's a little bit different because you're now working with, you know, the teaching. You're studying the teaching by practicing the same way, but you're now seeing how, if you do it, the dependent co-arising doesn't happen, and how if you don't do it, the dependent co-arising will. Or rather, how if you don't do it, the dependent co-arising of suffering will happen, and how if you do do it, the dependent co-arising of suffering will not happen. In both cases you're going to see dependent co-arising. One case you're going to see the dependent co-arising of the process of dependently co-arisen sufferings being stopped. It's going to stop in the moment of this kind of practice, and you can actually verify this. Or it's not going to stop because you're not going to do this practice, and then you can perhaps, even though you're not being strict with yourself and disciplining yourself, that you could still be aware that you didn't do it, that you got excited, you got involved, and sure enough, smack-o again.

[32:06]

So you can still study it even if you don't practice in such a way that the stream of this cycle is broken. So this is a simple way to start studying the pinnacle of arising. And is the middle link sayings in this room? Are the middle link sayings in this room? Hmm? So there's quite a few ways to study the pentacle of rising. I'm just telling you one right now, okay? And this is a scripture which many of you know about. It's called the Mahatana Sankhya Ha.

[33:13]

Sankhya Sutra, which means the destruction, the great destruction of craving scripture. And it's about this wonderful case, which many of you know about this Bhikkhu, his name was Sati, who believed in the inherent existence of consciousness. And he thought that, and he actually said, that was the Buddha's teaching. And then the Buddha said, no, it's not. And he said, oh, yes, it is. This is a, it was a tough nut, this guy. He was a monk, too, you know. He had become a monk. The Buddha had admitted him, or somebody admitted him to the Buddha's community, and he was teaching this, that the, that there's an, alas, a permanent consciousness. Anyway, at the end of the scripture, and there's lots of interesting things before the end, but the last section is called the ending of the round, full cessation. Okay?

[34:16]

On seeing form with the eye, in other words, in the scene, she does not lust after it if it is pleasing. She does not dislike it if it is unpleasing. So, that's that. not getting involved in a form, a form contact with the I and the I consciousness, not getting involved. He abides with mindfulness of body established, with immeasurable mind, and he understands as it actually is the deliverance of the mind and the deliverance of wisdom, wherein those evil, unwholesome states cease without remainder. So with this mind like a wall, you know, being present at this link of contact between eye organ, eye consciousness and forms, that kind of presence delivers wisdom.

[35:32]

Wisdom gets delivered at that point and prevents the arising of suffering. And here it says, these states cease without remainder, having thus abandoned favoring and opposing whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant, unpleasant. So in this case, the feeling is arising with the contact, but there's no opposing or favoring the feeling that arises. So you can also practice at the next link, not getting involved in the next link, a feeling. If you should happen, if there should be sense contact and the feeling arises, okay, then you practice the same practice. There's even a case which I found where craving happens.

[36:35]

Because this is fast. Contact, feeling, craving. Even when craving arises, the same practice of not opposing or favoring the craving. Not getting involved in that link. It stops. That same would apply with the next one and the next one. Even when the self is born to not get involved. You see, it's the same practice. Even when the belief in it, when the self is born, this inherently existing self based on all this stuff that was unattended before, even at that late date, ladies and gentlemen, if you do not get involved with that self, that inherently existing self, that's the end of suffering. Which just takes you back to not getting involved in the view of this exists. or does not exist. Not favoring, this exists, or opposing, this doesn't exist at all.

[37:41]

This little baby, this little self exists inherently, or this little baby doesn't exist at all. Not favoring or opposing, that link, this is the end of suffering. How about this thing's vicissitudes and afflictions and aging and sickness that happens to this. There too, same practice. The end of suffering. How about when suffering and treating the suffering that way? The end of suffering. How about when dying and death, treating that way? The same. At any point, this stream of dependent core arising can be stopped and one can be liberated from suffering. having abandoned favoring and opposing whatever feeling she feels, whether pleasant, painful, or neither pleasant nor painful, she does not delight in the feeling, welcoming it, or remain holding it.

[38:49]

As she does not do so, as she does not do so, delights and feelings cause as She does not do so. Delight in feelings ceases in him. With the cessation of delight comes the cessation of clinging. With the cessation of clinging comes the cessation of being. With the cessation of being comes the cessation of birth. With the cessation of birth comes the cessation of death. Aging, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, despair also cease. Such is the cessation of the whole mass of suffering. And then, of course, she does it for on hearing sound with the ear, on smelling odor with the nose, smelling, tasting flavors with the tongue, touching tangibles with the body, and cognizing mind objects with the mind. She does not lust after them if they are pleasing and does not dislike them if they are not pleasing.

[39:57]

Such is the cessation of the entire mass of ill. And the conclusion... Bhikṣus, remember this deliverance through the destruction of craving as taught in brief by me. But Bhikṣu, Sati, son of the fisherman, is caught up in the vast net of craving, in the trembling of craving. So even at the end, the Buddha could not convert one of his own students. This is a hard teaching for the Buddha. He had a hard time with this one. But he kept trying over and over and over again to teach emptiness, no self, and to teach the pinnacle of rising, pratica-samutpada. So once again, in this Kacchyanagota Sutra, we have the teachings of emptiness in the

[41:00]

And we have the teaching of dependent co-arising in the second half. And I think you know how to practice meditation with both these teachings. So that's kind of a... I thought kind of an easy start in this really profound topic. I just want to say one more thing is that when Ananda first heard the Buddha teaching this, the pinnacle arising, he said, Boy, this is a great teaching. It's really deep. It's so profound and wonderful, and yet it's easy to understand. And the Buddha said, Oh, Ananda, don't say that. Do not say that. It is not easy to understand. But I thought we'd start out easy.

[42:05]

Like, that seems unbelievably easy, right? That you could end suffering that way. But that's what I said at the beginning. In the seen, there's just the seen. In the heard, there's just the heard. In the cognized, there's just the cognized. And when it's like that, there will be no identification with what's happening. In other words, the self will not be born. He said, when that's the way it is for you, you will not identify with it, with what's happening. So that's what happens, is when things are happening and you don't just let the scene be the scene, then there's feeling. When you don't let the feeling just be feeling, in the feeling just let there be feeling, in the cognition of the feeling just let there be the cognition of the feeling, then there's craving. And if you don't let that be craving, then there's clinging, then there's becoming, and then there's identification with it. And when there's identification with it, then there's a here and a there and an in-between. And when there's a here and a there and an in-between, then there's a here that's scared of the there. Then there's a here and there's a there.

[43:11]

And over there, the there can discredit you. The there can disapprove of you. The there can hate you. But the there can love you and approve you and support you. And you're suffering with that over there-ness of the there. over there, which has been created by the over here, which is the birth of the self, which happens because you didn't let the scene just be the scene. You naughty meditator. But you successful self-creator, now you got a self, and now you got identification with what's happening and disidentification with what's happening. You got a full-scale mess on your hands. Congratulations. This is the arising of the suffering if you don't do that practice. But the ceasing of the suffering is you do that practice because if you practice this the way, then there will not be identification with what's happening. There won't be here and there and in between. And that will be the end of suffering. This is the incredibly simple practice that the Buddha is presenting. But he didn't say at the end of it, that will be the end of suffering.

[44:14]

That will be also the end of Buddhism. There's more to Buddhism than just the end of suffering. But by the way, this is the end of suffering. Yeah. Ignorance, if you get to the ignorance and you can practice the same way with the ignorance, if at the... when the ignorance arises, if you can be with the ignorance the same way you're with a sense contact. In other words, if you can see ignorance just like you can see blue and you'd be with the ignorance that way, then that would be... that's also the end of suffering, but that is a definitive... The other one, it's the end of suffering, but it's only at the end of suffering for that moment. And also the end of all sufferings are only for one moment, but the end of suffering that happens with the understanding of ignorance is permanente. It's permanent. Some things are permanent. It's not a created thing. It's a permanent release.

[45:14]

It is realization. A bodhi. which is more than just the end of suffering for the moment. It's more than just a moment of cessation of suffering. It is actually understanding emptiness, understanding dependent core arising fully. The same at karmic formations. So that's why the mundane truth is there is karmic formations. Please pay attention to them. Please notice your intentions all the time. Pay attention to these. Don't say that you don't have intentions. Notice them and try to develop good intentions. As a matter of fact, even if you have bad intentions, if you watch them, you'll notice how the consequences are harmful and gradually your mind will be transformed by noticing that wrong... And with the aggregates, each one of these, every one of those links can do the same practice. And at every one of those links, you can see the forward motion towards suffering.

[46:17]

But there's also, and I'm not getting into this yet, there's a way to do the, you know, to spin around each time and go backwards a step too. Because they're mutually conditioning. So another sutra I found is really neat. He says, well, basically, what, you know, who's responsible for this, what is it, name and form? You know, who gives rise to the name and form? And the monk has various possibilities of who is responsible for the rising of the five aggregates. Buddha says, misput question, don't say it that way. Consciousness, depending on consciousness, name and form arises. The five aggregates arise dependent on consciousness. So then the monks say, well, what does consciousness depend on? You know, who does that? He said, don't say that. That's the wrongly put question. Consciousness arises in dependence on name and form.

[47:21]

So in that case, name and form depends on the previous one, but the previous one depends on the later one, which is also true. So you can work yourself backwards and forwards on this chain by these kinds of meditations. For now, since I think it's easier to get in at the feeling. Feeling is the grossest of mental phenomena, so it's the easiest place to go in. The feeling contact place, I think, is the easiest place to start in terms of actual practice, and it is also the place that relates to all these other meditation instructions. So the Buddha said, in the scene, there will be just the scene. Bodhidharma says, do not activate the mind around objects, Don't get involved with objects. So they're both pointing to that place in our experience. They could have said, you know, in the karmic formations, let there just be karmic formations. But, you know, what does that mean to people? What it usually would mean would be that they would be dealing with some kind of concept of that. Or you could say in the consciousness or in the five aggregates.

[48:28]

So these two teachings start at the, I think, easiest place to plug into this process of dependent co-arising. But any place can be a point of ceasing the arising of suffering. Any place can be a point of aiding the arising of suffering. And any place can be a point of ceasing the arising of suffering and moving back earlier in the chain towards the root ignorance. What I've been trying to do so far in studying emptiness is go directly to the root of ignorance. But if you think about it, how you get there, now that you've heard this, related to the teaching of the Pentagon Rising, you will notice that the way you get there is actually by working yourself back through this chain. Think about it. Okay? It is now 10.05 for your information. Going clockwise, yes? If the what?

[49:29]

The ignorance is the belief in it. The belief that things inherently exist, plus that if there were five aggregates, or if there were a conventionally existing person, that it would inherently exist. the actual like full-fledged you know example of you've got now the conventionally existing self and now it's like appearing imbued with or you know enhanced by this belief in inherent existence it has now happened before No, it didn't exist before. It didn't exist then. It just arose at that point. Ignorance isn't the arising of all things. It's the arising of all things. It depends on ignorance. But in order for some of those things to arise, other conditions have to be met. So the ignorance is setting up the possibility of all arisings, of all apparent existences.

[50:46]

then, given other conditions, those appearances will occur. Ignorance is not the actual appearance of the inherently existing person. It is... Pardon? Yes, right. But ignorance makes possible all these other appearances which can then lead to the appearance of the inherently existing person. and the aging person, and the sick person, and the dead person. The ignorance is basically the false view of inherent existence, which, when it comes to people, will be that the person has an inherent existence. But when it comes to the five aggregates, or one of the five aggregates, it will be that each of them have inherent existence. or that color has inherent existence. That's the first aggregate.

[51:48]

But ignorance is not the same as the arising of sense contact. But the arising of sense contact depends on ignorance. That's right. If you don't get involved in a sense contact at that moment, You still may have ignorance, but the self won't arise, and therefore old age, sickness, death won't arise, suffering will not arise. There will be the cessation of suffering at that moment, in that moment, by that moment, through that moment, and of that moment. But you still may not have worked your way back and with imperturbable composure looked at your ignorance, studied the ignorance, and and the cessation of ignorance.

[52:51]

Pardon? I can also sit back like this. Anybody over in this sector? Yes? Yes? You would think that feeling is so fast that you never could intervene between the two? Is that what you're suggesting? She thinks that at sense contact, that feeling will arise inevitably. And that maybe at the craving, you'd have a chance for that not to be inevitable. Uh-huh. So you would think that?

[53:52]

I can see how you'd think that, but actually this teaching, I think, is saying that other things are possible besides what you just thought. By the way, she said, I've already covered this. She said, you may have already covered this. Did you say that at the beginning? And you did too, right? What I've already said covers everything. But it needs to be interpreted to see that because this teaching, it covers everything. This covers the entire world already. But it needs some interpretation. For example, is it possible to be so much on the mindfulness ball that when contact happens, feeling would cease? Feeling would not arise. Is it possible to be that fast? And similarly, could you be observing the five aggregates such that the sense contact wouldn't arise. So, this involves some interpretation because at what point do we have five aggregates in this story?

[54:54]

Isn't there five aggregates back at the point of ignorance? Well, and that's related to Peter's question. This is where things get complicated, okay? Is there five aggregates at the beginning? Are only five aggregates at a certain stage of development? Your job is to train yourself and find out. If at sense contact, if you have a mind like a wall, if feeling does not arise, or if, in fact, you're sure for your experience, feeling does arise, but the mind like a wall means there won't be any craving, you check it out, see what you find out. Maybe somebody else is going to say, oh, no, Meg, look. It's possible to have the sense contact without the feeling. Watch. One, two, three, boom. And you say, woo. Amazing. Next sector here.

[55:57]

Yes. Ooh, that was a close one. Yes. Only one degree turn. I think it could be understood as just like, and without getting involved in that then. Yeah, this is a sense contact. Now, could there be, was there a feeling? Yeah. Feeling is an involvement. And feeling, the involvement, which we call feeling, is based on karmic formations. Correct.

[57:12]

Correct. Without ignorance, if you're not getting involved in ignorance, no sense contact, no five aggregates, no appearances. Now, you guys might not be interested in this, but this is what we're talking about now. No consciousness. But, you know, again, this is a little bit abstract because you're not in that place, right? So start where you're at. But if you get back to the place... You see, that's the point. When you get back to the ignorance part, and you actually uproot that link, there's not going to be any karmic formations, consciousness. There's not going to be any five skandhas. There's not going to be any sense contact. There's not going to be any feeling. They will cease at the ceasing of ignorance. Can you believe it, that this world will not arise, the world will not arise without ignorance?

[58:16]

That's what it's actually, that's what we could interpret this as saying. However, it's also saying that the world does arise in this way. So we're both saying how the world arises and we're saying how the world doesn't arise. But in fact, if you go back to the beginning, we actually would have the case that these things would not arise Yes? Hm? What? Yes. Yes. You're going back now to studying this inherent view of self?

[59:32]

Is this the context you're talking about? Huh? But you don't, yeah, okay. Studying through thinking? You start by studying it through thinking. That's how you start. by thinking about it, and by using your thinking in this new way, you actually prove that it's an illusion to yourself. No, I think there'll still be sense contact because you have not yet convinced yourself of this ignorance not arising. You have not yet had the not arising of the ignorance. And this is getting complicated now.

[60:35]

Okay, she's asking for it. She's asking for it. I said before, you know, you can get to the place where you would see, you would understand that the appearance of things, okay, as being substantial and out there, you're no longer fooled by it. Okay? But there still is the appearance. There is, however, a state where there's not even the appearance anymore. Okay? Okay? When you're analyzing ignorance, when you're studying ignorance at the level of things still seem to be substantially out there, you've now found that you think that yourself is actually, that your personhood is actually substantially independently existing. You've got that now. You can, through calmly thinking about this and analyzing and examining this, you can not be fooled by that appearance anymore. Okay? But there still is the level of ignorance that's producing this appearance.

[61:39]

You're not fooled by it, which is a big step, okay? But you're not fooled by it anymore. But there still is the appearance. But it is possible to get to the place where there's not even the appearance, where your understanding of ignorance is not being studied by thinking anymore. It's being studied by being in, what do you call it, in this samadhi of witnessing the way things actually are and being sort of in that state. And then you're not thinking anymore and there's not even the appearance then of karmic formations and so on and so forth. Is what activity that I was just talking about? Well, starting when? Anyway, at a certain fate... Oh, you want to know where there's no more appearances happening?

[62:43]

Is that what you want to know? It's not happening, you know, in some place. There's no places anymore. Just like Nagarjuna said, you know, he taught the self and he taught the not-self. He taught the self to refute the annihilationists and he taught the not-self to refute the eternalists. But he didn't say that there's somebody, there's a thing called the self or a thing called the not-self. So this realization of freedom from, you know, the total... realization of enlightenment is not some place, is not on the cushion or off the cushion. Next sector, would you? Yes? Would you say that appearance in and of itself implies some identification?

[63:47]

Does appearance apply some identification? I think appearance implies some belief in inherent existence. There can be life without appearance. It's called nirvana. So in nirvana there's no appearances. In emptiness, in the realization of emptiness, except for the Buddha, there's no appearances. But there's still life. And this life, if you want to account for this life in terms of some experience or something like that, or some appearance, then you get back into, well, it seems like it's consciousness and so on. But you're switching back to saying, well, what appears to be there? But in emptiness there isn't any consciousness appearing. There's no appearances. But that's just the understanding that all those appearances are just that.

[64:54]

So when you understand that the appearance of consciousness is just the appearance of consciousness, you understand emptiness. But then in emptiness you don't see the appearance of consciousness because you just settled that business. Yeah, I know, that's an appearance. But now I'm getting into what I can understand when I understand that appearances are just that and nothing more. Now I see the way appearances really are. the way appearances really are, is that they're not appearances. They just appear to be appearances. Next sector. Next sector, yes. In the chintamaya phase of wisdom, in the phase of wisdom where you're actually thinking about the teaching of emptiness, there is thinking going on, yes.

[66:01]

You're using your thinking to test your understanding. You're studying ignorance? Yeah. So, at a certain phase in study, after you understand intellectually, accurately, and are convinced and understand emptiness intellectually, then you enter into a samadhi of that intellectual understanding. That intellectual understanding is something you have, you know. It's like It's like, you know, once you understand that the earth is round, then you enter into the samadhi of your new understanding. You live your life that way. You focus on that roundness.

[67:05]

Once you understand that things don't have inherent existence, you then settle down with that understanding. But you don't think about it conceptually anymore. But your misunderstanding was conceptual. You have now been conceptually reconstituted, or you've been conceptually transformed. Then this transformed conceptual being, or this transformed understanding, then becomes the focus of your samadhi. Until these things don't even appear anymore. This is like to bring this understanding into your meditation, into your... into your body. But, you know, I'm just telling you that, but I don't think necessarily you're ready for that, because you haven't done the previous step. Yeah.

[68:22]

You don't understand why it's first? Well, I don't think it has to be first. The Buddha didn't always start with ignorance, but it's just that all the stuff is based on it, but you don't have to start with ignorance. Like I said, in that scripture, he started with the eye contact with the forms. What? Yeah. Yeah. Could you speak up, please? That's right. Yes, I think so. I don't think so.

[69:24]

Not necessarily. And that... But I have witnessed people end suffering in the moment by this practice which I just described. But then the next moment, if they don't do that practice, then they're just like sitting ducks for the view which they've been holding all along. But this practice is a momentary antidote. It's an antidote in the present for this view. But until we actually let go of that view and even bring that view completely into our body, we're always susceptible... to slipping back into it. But still, while being susceptible, we do this practice, which ends suffering in the moment, plus also helps us be ready to study more deeply, until we work our way back and uproot the most subtle form of ignorance. Which, you know, you have to do in order to, in order to Complete the Mahayana course, which means to completely understand dependent core arising.

[70:32]

The whole process. And understand emptiness and how they help each other. And understand the two truths. Yes. Can you do the next one? Can you ask two? Yeah. Yeah. you're not fooled by the by their appearance of being substantial but they still appear but they still appear pardon right That's the next stage, right?

[71:36]

That's called complete Buddhahood. Yeah. Are you still involved? Don't get bored. Don't, like, space out. Yeah, like, don't space out. That would be a way to get involved. Traditional way to get involved, space out. I know what to do when things are neutral. Next quadrant, yes? Yeah, Alex? What feelings are positive, negative, and neutral about the sense contact?

[72:43]

Pardon? Yes, okay. Well, sort of whether you feel pleasant or unpleasant when you look at it or neutral. Yeah, like or dislike would be like craving. I want more of it or less of it. Get that out of here. Give me more of it. Or I can't decide what my order is going to be. Well, actually he didn't say in the feeling there's just a feeling. What he said was in the cognized there will be just a cognized. So if you're... Because this training instruction is training in conception.

[73:50]

Okay? He's training us in a non-conceptual mode. So he means the conception of blue, the conception of sweet, and the conception of pain. So in this case of that meditation, what you're dealing with is the concept, you know, painful feeling. Pardon? Yeah, that's it. So that's a concept. Yeah, uh-huh. So you let that, you let that, if that's what it is, if it's a word and it's a definition, then what do you do with that? You just let it be that. That's the meditation. Whatever it is, you let it be that.

[74:51]

You don't elaborate it. If it's an abstract concept, you let it be an abstract concept. If it's a concrete concept, let it be a concrete concept. Like some people might say, well, blue is a concrete concept, so I'll let the blue just be the blue. In the blue, there will just be the blue. Anything over in this next sector here? Vicky. Now, I wanted to give an example of... Yes, ma'am. So I've been looking at the feeling of the separation between self and other.

[75:57]

So first, seeing self and other, it seems painful. Did you say you're looking at the feeling? Seeing self and other as different and isolated is very painful. And then seeing self and other as the same is pleasant but unsatisfying. And then seeing self and other as a function of mental invitation is kind of painful, but it's kind of covert motivations that we want. And seeing it as But that still has a thread of, well, there is a self, or there isn't, but it's just, I don't have to be run by that.

[77:00]

And then, seeing into that more, I don't have to be run by the pleasant or beautiful feeling itself. And I can look at the, there's a deeper level of kind of machos or something, kind of cellular macho that runs me. Of like, there is a self or there isn't. Sorry, I heard what you said. Did you have a question or anything? Is that an example of what you're talking about?

[78:05]

Is that the meditation? Or is that... Which meditation? At which point? At the beginning, we were talking about breaking into the chain of the life-giving, [...] the life-giving. And so I was wondering if that's an example of breaking. It seems like pleasant, painful, or neutral takes you so far in the, only so far in it, and then there's something even more fundamental than pleasant, painful, or neutral. Or at least there was in this particular example for you. What's more fundamental than feeling in this case?

[79:11]

Kind of a mantra that goes self, self, self, other, other, other. So I can... It makes sense to me. You might feel that that mantra was more fundamental in some way that... because maybe that mantra is the ignorance upon which the sense contact and the feeling depend. But at the point of the sense contact of the pain, I don't, myself, I'm not aware of that mantra. That mantra sounds more like, What we were talking about earlier, when we were talking about trying to find our mantram, find the mantram, find this feeling, this view, this philosophy, this mantram of self.

[80:20]

So looking at that and studying that would be done in the same mode I would recommend doing that in the same mode as the study of what seems to be a sense contact or a feeling. Same mode of study. Just be present with it? Be present in this, you know, non-conceptual way of this mind like a wall way of being present with it. Not favoring or opposing it. And so, but if we're now I feel like coming at the point of sense contact or feeling is the example I gave, but your example sounds like going back more to the meditation we were doing before, of looking for what is the, you know, this basic ignorance. It seems like the point at which the feeling, the contact with the feeling arises is the point of mental imputation, the point of

[81:31]

The point of where you were talking about the self... Say it again. The point at which what? The point at which you kind of see dependence, but there's a thread of fixed view of an inherently existing self still continuing. Yes. That's the point at which the subtle feeling of pleasant people are neutral. I think this teaching of dependent co-arising could support that because this can all happen in a moment. Namely, there's this belief in inherent existence, and then, boom, the whole thing happens, right up to suffering. So the suffering is right there. It's just that for those who are not looking at the beginning of this process, you can come into it at a later stage, which may be easier for people to find. namely either contact or feeling. Feelings are easier mental phenomena for people to come in contact with and sense data are easier mental phenomena for people to come into, I think, than what you're talking about.

[82:46]

But I would hope that they would eventually be able to look at what you're looking at. But when you do look at that, unless there is this real clear presence with that, If there's still any being caught by that, then the rest of the changes snaps in right away. It seems like feeling is what makes the meditation thorough, because there's some sense of personal involvement with feeling, because either it feels good or it feels bad to me. Feeling is what makes the meditation be thorough. Yeah, it makes me want to be more thorough, because as long as things feel good or bad... I have a personal space in seeing it. So I heard you say that feeling seems to make the meditation more thorough. And when I heard that, I thought, well, feeling

[83:47]

if there's any feeling that would help me work towards thoroughness because of what you said, if there's any feeling, there's going to be some unhappiness. If it's positive feeling, there's going to be unhappiness. If there's negative feeling, there's going to be unhappiness. Whatever kind of feeling there is, there's going to be suffering unless I cut the link at that feeling. So that feeling will promote thoroughness of my meditation in the sense of encouraging me because I'm not doing the meditation if I'm caught by it. And if I'm at the early stages in this process of dependent core rising where I'm actually looking now at the belief in inherent existence and feelings arising, then my way of looking at this belief in inherent existence is not quite on the mark. When I actually look at this basic ignorance in the proper way, the rest of the chain will be cut. But I could still, you know, the positive attitude would be if the register of the chain is not cut, then that's a stimulus for me to be more thorough in the way I'm looking.

[84:54]

Because I'm still wobbling a little bit if the feelings are rising. When this practice is thorough, there will be no arising of feeling. Because without that ignorance, there will be no feeling. It won't arise. For me. For me, it still will arise in another realm because the emptiness of the lack of inherent existence is still the lack of inherent existence of something. But at the time that the meditation is complete, I'm not looking at the something that lacks inherent existence, I'm looking at the lack of inherent existence. I don't see dependent core arising anymore. But dependent core arising is the topic which I see is empty. All the dependent core arisings are the things which I understand are empty.

[86:02]

Sarah? Say it again. Going along the chain of causation. Uh-huh. I was trying to actually... Yes. Yes. I would like to elaborate on what you said, may I?

[87:13]

And that is, I would say that when the five aggregates arise in dependence on consciousness, conventionally speaking, you can have a person there, which is accounted for by the five aggregates. It's just a five-aggregate composition according to the rules of conventionality. And this conventional existent person is impermanent like the five aggregates, but it actually doesn't, you know, it isn't the source of our suffering. It's the one that's made later that's the source of our suffering. When the ignorance starts to get mixed in with whatever conventionally existing person that has arisen, it becomes infected by that view. This is the one that's born, that we've got a problem with.

[88:17]

Okay, yes? No. Chain of causation is about ultimate truth. When you first look at it, you might be projecting lots of inherent existence on top of it. You'll see as you study, like this example I just gave, they're teaching dependent core arising, and the person says, the Buddha's teaching, and the person says, well, who makes this consciousness arise? Who works that up? He gives various possibilities. Buddha says, no. So they have this conventional approach to this teaching of ultimate truth. The pinnacle of rising is a teaching about how the world of appearance appears. It's not a teaching which says the world of appearance is really there.

[89:18]

It tells you how appearance appears, how it happens that it appears, and how when it appears, unless you cut it at some point, it's going to perpetuate suffering, this appearance. This is not saying that there really is appearance. In matter of fact, it implies that because it's dependent process, there really isn't appearance. These are just appearances. That's what this is implying. So it's not a teaching of conventional reality. It's a teaching about how conventional reality appears. That's an ultimate teaching. The way that conventional reality appears, or conventional truth appears, is the way that you understand that it lacks inherent existence. So, this is not a teaching of conventional existence. It's a teaching about the ultimate way that conventional existence is, namely it's dependent and therefore empty. So, did you have something else there that you were in the middle of?

[90:21]

No? No? So, when a bodhisattva gets pleasure from looking at a flower, is she for a moment coming back into the realm of samsara? Is this a bodhisattva that's already realized nirvana? Already realized nirvana? Yeah, they're coming back into samsara. And are they now sort of indulging in sense pleasure for the welfare of all beings? You know, that could be the case, that they might do that. That might be helpful to people for them actually to go so far in the process as feeling. They go all the way. all the way up to sense contact and then even feel the pleasure of seeing the flower. Now, does the bodhisattva have to take the next step too?

[91:23]

And like have craving for more flowers? Is that going to be helpful to anybody? Well, if it is, bodhisattvas probably should do that too. But almost never do bodhisattvas get asked to take the next step. But I guess bodhisattvas should go that far as to then crave too. In other words, yeah, like not to have a mind like a wall and slip into cravings to help people. Like, okay, okay, okay. We really do want you to do that, Bodhisattva X. Tell me the reason again. We want to see how you do it. We want to see you create the magical illusion of you craving. We want to see you do it. They might do it. Yes? Mm-hmm.

[92:38]

I feel like if dad likes enjoyment, that's... uprooted your belief in you know substantial existence so it really really does seem to be the beats actually seem to be out there on their own and you're eating the beats and the the beats are mixed with the view that they inherently exist that false view is still being interwoven with the phenomena of the beats no because you're ignorant

[93:53]

This whole thing, this whole show, this whole appearance, before you even saw the beats, you were sitting in the zendo, you know, inherently existing according to your view. And now everything that gets brought in the zendo is going to get this inherent existence zap. So all these, you know, these enlightened bodhisattvas are bringing in these foods which don't inherently exist. and presented them to you, and you project inherent existence onto the food. Well, there can be suffering simultaneous with the pleasure. No, because of the craving. Well, the appearance of beats being out there on their own depends on ignorance.

[94:59]

So let's say you've got that situation. We can have two examples if you want, but let's take the example of there is ignorance, so the beats seem to be out there. There's a sense of out there-ness and independent existence being projected onto the beats. you're eating the beets, and you're practicing a little bit, but anyway, you have a neutral sensation arises, or a positive sensation arises. A positive sensation arises, and if you crave at that point of a positive sensation, then unless you are very fast and catch yourself before the craving goes into clinging, goes into becoming, goes into birth, goes into suffering, which is very fast, unless you catch yourself on that positive sensation and don't crave, you'll probably slip into suffering while you're here simultaneous with the positive sensation. There's three kinds of suffering. One of the kinds of suffering is called the suffering of disintegration or degeneration, which means the suffering of when pleasant things either end or when you think about them ending.

[96:10]

The Japanese are really good at that one. All those poems about, you know, they wait all winter to see the cherry blossoms, and as soon as they see the cherry blossoms, they go, oh, oh, ah, ah, ah. You know, they stagger around under the cherry trees because they feel like they're going to fall. Those blossoms are going to fall. Pretty soon it's going to be winter, you know. And they just love that. That moment, you know, that they've been waiting for all winter to see these beautiful pink blossoms and then feel the pain of them falling before they even fall. Or even in the buds they start to feel the pain of the things opening and falling. This is the pain of disintegration or degeneration which you feel when you feel pleasure. But it's possible to feel the pain or pleasure, or neutral sensation, but no craving. But when you see those cherry blossoms, it's pretty hard not to crave.

[97:11]

But if you didn't crave, you wouldn't feel the pain. And someone would say, but I'd rather have that more complex feeling, so I'm going to like crave on top of the pleasant sensation of seeing that pink, because it's just so kinky. It's just so neat, you know, and like... Past, present, and future all squishing in on each other and twisting my little body out of shape here. It's been a long winter, you know, just looking at the snow, but now I can really get twisted around here. Take a little break in my meditation and indulge in this pleasure. Crave. Oppose and favor this pink. So back to the beats. If you had a neutral sensation of the beats, and you just had that sensation, and that's all that there was, that would be the end of suffering at that moment. If you had pleasure and you didn't oppose it or favor it at that moment, that would be the end of suffering at that moment.

[98:20]

Pardon? Sometimes I get the feeling that you're going to have to... Well, again, go back to the beginning of the practice period. The first thing the Buddha said, what did he say? He didn't say no pleasure. He said, don't indulge in sense pleasure. You said, don't indulge in it. In the sense pleasure, there will just be sense pleasure. If sense pleasure has arisen, there will just be sense pleasure. That's it. That's what he said, right? He didn't say there was no sense pleasure. He said, not indulging in it. So, At the first level it means in the sense pleasure there's just sense pleasure. That's it. Then there's the end of suffering. That's the middle way. But it's also possible, he could have said, people don't usually indulge in sense contact. You know, what they do usually is they get excited around sense contact.

[99:23]

They get excited. You know, something happens and they go, whoa. Then they get pleasure and pain. Then they indulge in that. So you don't like indulging it like wish for more sense contact. You just get excited. But then when pleasure comes, then you indulge in it. So not only when you indulge in it does it cause attachment and suffering, but it distracts you from your meditation. So when the pleasure happens, in the pleasure, just the pleasure is the way to train yourself. Now, it might be the case that if you do that, you might also start doing that with sense contact, and then pleasure won't even arise for you. Because before pleasure even arises, suffering has ended. So suffering can end before pleasure even happens. You might say, wait a minute, I don't know if I want that. And it's scary to work your way all the way back to nirvana too, where nothing's going to happen.

[100:31]

But bodhisattvas need to do a little nirvana work in order to, you know, do the Buddha thing. But you don't have to stay in nirvana, don't worry. You just have to visit at least once. in order to be a Buddha. You have to, like, know a little bit about nirvana. But I remember one time, you know, Professor Jaini, he's one of the... He's a retired professor now. He was one of my first Abhidharma teachers over at Berkeley. He let me audit his classes and one of the first classes he let me audit and all of a sudden he turned to me and he said, what are you doing in this class? You're a monk, you should be meditating. But anyway, he let me stay in the class and gradually we made friends after I took him to Green Gulch and gave him some really good vegetarian food. He's a giant. Anyway, he said he was studying, you know, he wasn't really a Buddhist but he studied Buddhism, you know, and he

[101:44]

He was studying this text one time and he said, you know, I think the Buddhists are really afraid of nirvana. A lot of the Buddhists are really afraid of nirvana. And particularly he thinks maybe that the bodhisattvas are afraid of nirvana. So you ain't seen nothing yet about, you know, not even having pleasure arising. And let's see, now it's getting a little bit late. And Andrew doesn't ask very many questions, so he gives a special thing there. Pardon? When you have pain, pain is painful, right? That's one kind. It's called dukkha-dukkhatta. And the other one's the pain, the dukkha of disintegration, of pleasure, which is sometimes called sukha dukkha, because sukha is pleasure.

[102:57]

And the third is the, it's called in Pali, sankara dukkha. dukkha. In Sanskrit it's called samskara dukkha. And that means the pain of something that's made. Anything that's made deteriorates and changes. And just the conditionality is annoying, is painful. That's the most subtle one because that characterizes all phenomena. All things that are made are painful in that way. So that kind of suffering is going on 24 hours a day as long as there's any clean to inherent existence. The other two happen when there's pain or pleasure. And so sometimes you can have two of those types at a given moment. But you always have the pain of conditionality. That's also that sutra I said earlier where somehow

[104:02]

Somehow people in those days, those monks seemed to know when he said to them, is what's impermanent pleasant or unpleasant? They said, unpleasant, Lord. They somehow knew that anything that changes is annoying, at least a little bit irritating. So conditionality and impermanence are annoying. And particularly on top of that, we feel annoyed when pain goes away. And we don't feel so annoyed when, excuse me, we feel annoyed when pleasure goes away. We don't feel so annoyed when pain goes away, but we feel annoyed by the conditionality of pain. So even we feel, so when pain goes away, it's usually pleasant, but then we feel annoyed by the conditionality of the, you know, end of the pain. I think John was next. some of the ideas going to Nevada and then coming back into the world.

[105:10]

Well, again, I don't know if they have to act like they believe in the inherent self. That would be like, again, You say to the bodhisattva, would you take on your previous belief again and show us what that would look like? So then a bodhisattva could, like a really good actor, try to actually put yourself in the role of somebody who believed in inherent existence and act like that. But that would be very dangerous for a bodhisattva because he might be cruel. If he actually took the role back on of actually believing in inherent existence, it would be very dangerous. You know, that's very, very dangerous business.

[106:17]

I don't know about that. But to take on the conventional self... Because in realization of emptiness, in the direct realization of emptiness, if you actually had that direct realization, you do not see even five aggregates anymore. So, not to mention, you don't see the conventional existing self. In emptiness, there is... not even five aggregates. So if a bodhisattva had that realization, a bodhisattva could then re-enter the world of seeing five aggregates and then seeing the conventional designation of a person to those five aggregates, but to go so far as to like re-believe again that that person has inherent existence or that the five aggregates have inherent existence. In other words, you'd go back to the place of reimagining the appearance of things, but you wouldn't then, in addition, believe that it's really true the way they appear.

[107:18]

But you can still see the appearance. To go back to see the appearance and believe that they really were the way they appeared, I don't think the bodhisattva has to go that far to help people. Because, you know, if you can see the appearance and not be fooled by it, I think you're more helpful to people. But again, if for some reason bodhisattva ran into some really You know, some people that knew something about Buddhism and say, okay, now, will you even do that for us? Will you, like, take the poison of ignorance again and, like, come back to, like, believe that the appearances that you're now aware of, that they inherently exist, will you do that for us? The boys say, oh, if you tell me how it's helpful, I'll do it. But, you know, I do myself. I can't understand yet that that would be helpful. I do understand that it's helpful for bodhisattvas to look at appearances next to somebody else who's looking at the appearance and point out that they see it and yet it's not really as it appears to be.

[108:24]

It actually is another way. Namely, it lacks inherent existence. But it looks like it has inherent existence. That kind of presence in the world seems to be helpful. And that's the presence of the Buddha in the world. It's one of the ways the Buddha is present in the world, is by that kind of interaction. So I don't think you have to go that far. Well, again, remember Dr. Jaini said, the Buddha goes up to the point of feeling and no further. So they'll go that far. The bodhisattvas will go that far. but not any further, not into craving. And that's, in the sutra I read, they went to the point of craving and ended suffering at that point. And you could even enter, in another sutra, they ended the step before. You can end at sense contact, you can end at feeling. But to get into craving, why go that, that seems like awfully risky.

[109:27]

Well, you're out of order. Let's see. I think Helen was before a seizure. ... [...] Well, there's many different ways to talk about the bodhisattva's happiness. If a bodhisattva is in pain, like somebody's being mean to a bodhisattva, for example, and pinching their cheek real hard or something, that could be painful for the bodhisattva, right? Maybe? That's the pain of pain, right?

[110:33]

So they feel that pain of pain. But let's see what else is the bodhisattva doing. The bodhisattva is also practicing giving at that moment, giving her cheek to be twisted. And they practice giving. And they have extreme joy in practicing giving. They're also practicing patience. with the pain, and so they're kind of okay with the pain, and there's a joy in practicing pain. They're also practicing enthusiasm, and there's a joy in practicing enthusiasm, but also there's a joy at thinking about how good it is that they're patient with this pain, and how good it is that they're practicing giving. They're also practicing the precepts at that time, and they're also a great joy in practicing the precepts. Now, they could also be practicing samatha at the same time, and have fully realized samatha, and there's a great joy in practicing samatha. So all this can happen simultaneously, all these joy practices can be happening simultaneously with the experience of dukkha dukkhata.

[111:44]

On top of the whole thing is that bodhisattva remembers what the bodhisattva was here for. voice of remembrance. Oh yeah, I came into this world not so much to get pinched, which is what's happening right now, and actually this is actually quite an excessive pinch. I didn't come here specifically to get pinched. I came here to help these beings, and one of whom is pinching me. And this is, you know, I'm so happy to be here in this pinch land. It's fantastic. I'm so happy. I'm actually, I actually did ask to come here and I am here and I am where I wanted to be. This is the playground that I wanted to be in. And I'm in it. And the pain which I thought might happen, which I heard about might happen before I started to come is now happening and it's okay with me. Actually, I'm really awfully happy to be here with you picking on me like this. But I'm not asking you to continue to pick on me.

[112:46]

You can stop anytime you want. I don't know if I answered your question in the way you wanted me to. You have two parts. Would that be a feeling? I don't think necessarily it would be a feeling, but it might be accompanied by... But I thought your example was right in the middle of the pain. So you're practicing patience. The pain's still there in the patience, you know. You're being burned. It hurts, but you practice patience with the hurt. And you're practicing giving with the hurt. And you're practicing precepts with the hurt. You're practicing concentration with the hurt. But there is hurt at that moment. So, you know... The person is... The bodhisattva is sick. The bodhisattva does have cancer or whatever, right? Like Suzuki Roshi and their Karmapa died of cancer.

[113:48]

And before them, people thought, well, Zen masters don't... Zen masters don't die of cancer. They die of, you know... They just die kind of like when they want to, right? But after the Karmapa and Suzuki Roshi had cancer, people thought, hmm... You mean like bodhisattvas die like just... regular painful death. Like, I guess the Buddha did too, didn't the Buddha, like, it wasn't actually that. He was actually, like, had, like, regular blood coming out of him and stuff. He actually had, like, he was, like, dehydrated and had dysentery and he was, like, uncomfortable. He had dukkha dukkhata. But, a lot of people have dukkha dukkhata, but he was the Buddha having dukkha dukkhata. He was, like, Even when he was sick, he was still like oozing this great dharma and helping people right to the end, giving nice dharma talks even when he was sick because he could talk. And when the Buddha talked, he talked dharma.

[114:48]

So, you know, sometimes we don't have dukkha-dukkhata. Sometimes we have sukha-dukkha. And sometimes we have sankhara-dukkha. But we always have dukkha. But the question is, are we delivering these wonderful dharma talks in the middle of our dukkha? And Buddhas do. And Bodhisattvas do. So they're really happy because they're like giving these gifts of good teaching even while they're kind of like in whatever situation they need to be to deliver it. I don't know if I answered the second part of your question, but that was my attempt. No, not quite. But she dares not ask for more. And we're getting awfully close to noon service time. Adam? Yeah, all pervasive, as long as there's any ignorance.

[115:54]

That reminded me of what I've heard. yeah it's kind of like yeah kind of the same well I think you need a little break before service right May I just tell you that I thought, let's end this class when the kitchen leaves today. Wouldn't that be something? To do that? Want to try that next time? Huh? Try to end when the kitchen leaves? Just to see if we can do that?

[116:57]

If that can happen? Just for, you know... Maybe that is. Let's think of it that way. That might make it easier. Got an appetite over there? So we're now going to start studying dependent core rising alongside of our study of emptiness and the relationship between dependent core rising and emptiness. The relationship between selflessness and dependent core rising. May our intention equally penetrate every wound and place.

[117:58]

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