Please come. I think we have a... Do we have a microphone for him? I can just speak. I can project. Okay, good. There's a microphone underneath you. No need. Okay. It was interesting to hear your beautiful talk about how to love and become wise through love and walking from here to the dining hall, and they were selling muffins and other stuff in there. And it was just interesting for me because how I view the monetary system that we all participate in, I see it as violent in and of itself, and competition as antisocial and violent. a lot of the suffering coming from that participation.

[01:02]

And yeah, I just question how we can be nonviolent and yet participate in such a system that exploits the earth and exploits the freedom of people. And how do we address that? One thing that comes to mind is a woman I knew who, I met her at a, I think it was called a vigil, we were doing a vigil at the nuclear testing site outside Las Vegas. And some people were going to do a non-violent protest. They're going to go into the place where they weren't supposed to be and then they get arrested as a protest against... there was a protest against something. And one of the women who was at this event said that she... I think she lived in the Bay Area and she wanted to ride a bicycle across the bridge instead of taking... instead of taking a car across

[02:21]

But then she realized that even riding a bicycle, even walking, she could not actually separate herself from the process of extracting oil because the bicycle is also involved in the oil industry, in the tires and everything. So whether you walk across the bridge or whether you even go near the bridge or ride a bicycle or drive a car, we all cannot get out of it. So if you extract yourself from it, you're in it in the reverse way. You can't actually extract yourself from it. If you walk away from some bad situation, you're still involved in it. And sometimes it's good to walk away from a bad situation. Sometimes that's helpful.

[03:24]

Sometimes walking away from a situation of violence is really beneficial. You can do it as a gift rather than, I'm going away and I'm going to be in a place where I'm not doing anything violent. There's violence over there which I think is You know, I've heard the Buddha was like really recommending non-violence. He was teaching them non-violence. But the Buddha didn't necessarily go someplace where there was no violence. But sometimes he would recommend to his students to go away from where there was violence. He thought that would be best for them not to be near it. But he sometimes walked right into it because he thought it would be beneficial if he did. So it might be beneficial for some people to like not use money. You know? And then people will take their money and go buy food and bring it to you. You know?

[04:27]

Oh, he's a really great guy. He's like really not participating in this evil area of this money and all the cruelty that's associated with it. So I'll take my money and go buy him some food to give it to him. So those people are involved in this mess and bringing you food so you don't have to be. So of course then you are because the people who are involved are supporting you. Right? You're being supported by people who are involved in what you do not want to support. But you do support it because they're feeding into it to help you because they care about you. You can't get away from it. If there's any violence going on, we cannot actually get away from it. And moving a distance from it can be beneficial, but we're still involved once we're at a distance. And maybe our distance will help bring nonviolence.

[05:30]

Maybe our distance will be a nonviolent response to violence. But if we distance ourselves from violence and things we're not involved in it, that thought that we're not involved is kind of violent. Like, I'm not involved in this evil. It's kind of violent. I was talking to some people one time and they were telling me about all the good things they wanted to do for people. And I thought, that's great. And then they started to talk about the evil people. And I said, just a second, who are the evil people? Are they someone other than us? And it turns out that they were. Or at least they were somebody other than those people. I might have been included in the evil ones, I wasn't sure. So if you see some unwholesome situation, the question is, basically, how do you plunge into it in such a way as to bring compassion to the unwholesome situation?

[06:31]

How can you compassionately engage it? And one way to compassionately engage an unwholesome situation is to say, I don't want to do this. But I'm not separating myself from it. I'm trying to bring compassion to it. So if there's an evil, unwholesome, harmful thing going on, the bodhisattva vows to embrace that, you know, focuses on the welfare of the evil situation and everybody who's involved in it. We're not trying to promote evil. We're trying to be compassionate towards evil so that it doesn't hurt anybody. So if we see violence, we vow to embrace the beings that are in it in such a way that they will be benefited and liberated from the violence. If we see violence, we want to teach nonviolence. And sometimes nonviolence is to go someplace else. And sometimes nonviolence is to go and intimately relate to violence.

[07:35]

I mean, we can put it this way. Sometimes it's intimate to walk away from violence. Like people are dancing, you know. Sometimes it's an intimate walk to back up from your partner and then she comes towards you. Or go towards your partner and he goes away. But it's really an intimate moving towards and from. It's not like, I'm going away to get away from you. I'm going away to realize intimacy with you. Like, okay, now you're coming with me, cool. Okay, now you're going away from me. We're doing this together. So the evil people, the cruel people, the violent people, They are my dear friends. So I want to be intimate with them because then if we're intimate there will be non-violence realized. And again, sometimes the way to realize intimacy is to say, bye-bye. I'm going to go away now. And then they come with you.

[08:36]

And then you're in this dance of I'm going away or I'm going with you. I'm coming back or I'm getting away from you. thing is to realize intimacy, then the wisdom will come. And again, one way to do intimacy is to walk away from the financial situation where all this cruelty is happening and let the people who are involved in that area that you walked away from, let them come and relate to you. to give them advice about how, because they're going back. They live there. That's where they live. You give them advice from your position of not participating in that way. You participate in the way of educating them how to become intimate where they live. So some people teach at a distance from violent scenes to educate those who are in them how to be non-violent. Other people actually go into the violent scenes to educate people how to be not violent. But the point is to educate and to bring wisdom to this world of violence and suffering, to wake people up.

[09:44]

And don't think that you can get away from, you cannot get away from other sentient beings. You cannot, we cannot, we're never separate from skillful people and we're never separate from unskillful people. Separation is a total illusion. But still, as part of understanding that illusion, it sometimes is helpful to walk away from something, to play that game of, okay, now I'm going to pretend like I'm separating from you, just so we can realize that's an illusion. Just like sometimes Zen teachers say to their students, get out of here, as a way to help the student realize intimacy. Or sometimes Zen teachers say, I'm out of here, In other words, I'm going to die. And they die so the students can realize intimacy with them. Okay? Thank you for your heart. You're welcome.

[10:48]

Could you also move the Zabaton over here so it covers the Buddhist tongue? Any other thing you'd like to discuss? Yes, please come. Yes, please use that. Thank you very much for your wonderful lecture and I deeply appreciate it. I think I got what you said about how to be simultaneously extended love and presence yet open and relaxed at the same time.

[11:56]

But I'm kind of puzzled because I have this friend who traveled all over the world and who had various kind of friendship and relationship. And when he shares, I notice my judgmental mind that trying to apply his sharing into our ideas and perception of what we think of romantic relationship or such and such. But I think I'm getting a glimpse of understanding what he said through today's lecture, but still a little bit by the, like, that simultaneous part, and relaxed, and yet open. Well, relaxed and open kind of go together. The part that seems to be somewhat... I don't know what the word is, some tension between being focused and being relaxed.

[13:03]

So part of the thing is you're focused on something. Like you're focused on what somebody's saying and you're also being precise about what they're doing or not doing. So you're being precise about what their conduct is or what your conduct is. So you're focused on welfare and also you're also being quite precise about what's going on. You're quite honest and precise. So part of the problem is how can you be precise and relaxed? How can you be precise and focused precisely and be open? And that's the art of concentration, is how to be right here with you and then you change and I'm right here with the new person that you are. So I'm really here with you, but I'm relaxed, so when you change, I can be with the new person. And the new person. So there's freshness and flexibility, but also presence. So that's concentration.

[14:06]

And also, I'm with you, and also lots of things that's happening with me, too. I'm with what's going on with me, hopefully, too. I'm aware of my own experiences. Like I see my hands here, you know, in front of my face. Where'd they come from? Hello. Hello. So maybe you could tell me a little bit more about, go a little bit deeper into your question. Because I'm saying that the openness and relaxation go together. The part that's unusual, I mean the part that sort of is in tension with it, is that you're facing suffering. And when you face suffering, you know, you've got to be right there. Not sort of like, well, I'm somewhere in the neighborhood. No, you're right there with it. You're not separating yourself from it. Precisely there and relaxed. Rather than... A lot of what a lot of people do is they're generally in a situation, kind of sort of there, and then it's easier for them to relax when they're kind of there.

[15:14]

Like if I say to somebody, well, um... Would you like to get together sometime? And they say, yeah. And I said, you feel relaxed about getting together with me? And they say, yeah, it's okay. Well, when would you like to get together? And they say, well, I'm kind of uncomfortable about saying exactly when. Well, could we make a date? Well, I don't know. Well, okay. How about tomorrow at 11? Okay. Okay. Are you going to be there? Well, I don't want to commit to being there. I know we have an appointment, but I'm not saying I'm going to be there on time. So are you not going to be there on time? No, I'm not. Okay, are you going to be late? Yes. Are you committing to be late? How late are you going to be? I'm not going to say. I might say, well, I think that's too imprecise for me. That's not focused enough. So when you're willing to make an appointment with me, the person may say, well, how about let's meet at 11 and allow 10 minutes on either side, okay?

[16:24]

And I say, 10 minutes on either side? So we're going to meet sometime between 10 to 11 and 11.10? That's when we're going to meet in that time zone? Yes. And then the person says, and I say, now do you feel relaxed about that? And the person says, no, I'm not so relaxed with that. Well, let's try to relax with that now that we're getting specific. okay, we're really kind of focused on this time zone and this commitment, and I'm relaxed. It's possible. But you can notice that when things get more specific sometimes, it does sometimes bring up some tension or some rigidity. Like, what would happen if I'm late? If I just say I want to meet, then there's no problem. If I don't show up, I didn't say I would. But if I say I'm going to meet and I make a commitment, then I maybe notice some rigidity around this. It's already there, but this precision brings the rigidities, brings the lack of relaxation out.

[17:25]

And when we get it out there, then we can practice kindness towards that and then relax. And then we can have a meeting with relaxation and then we can learn better what our meeting is. Yep. Any more questions about that? No? Is that clear? Okay, good. Thank you very much. You're very welcome. Anything else to discuss this morning? Yes, please come. My question is precisely what you discussed about in terms of not really being sure if I want to meet suffering. I recently interviewed for a position that I felt really called for to do and it feels very appropriate given my life background, my training to do.

[18:36]

And I realize now that given the prospect of maybe actually getting the job, I'm really a little scared of it because it really would require facing a lot of suffering. So I just want to know, am I really not cut out for it or is there some way to practice around it? My primary fear is that the position is working with survivors of torture. And I think it's at a level of suffering that maybe I haven't really heard day in, day out. my job is as a therapist and I hear a lot of suffering but I'm afraid that after hearing all these stories that I won't be able to just totally relax and enjoy a blue sky one day you know and without thinking of what I've seen and heard and so I'm scared so and I feel exactly that tension of I want to be there but the time and the place I won't exactly say yes

[19:47]

Well, one of the words you used was, I'm not sure if I'm cut out for this. And in a way, in a way I think we are cut out for this. However, we still may not be ready for certain levels of suffering. Sometimes certain levels of suffering are too advanced for us. And so, I think it would be good for you to converse with your wise and compassionate friends to try to assess whether this is too advanced. Because I think you are cut out for this, but it may not be that you're ready at this time. Now it's also possible to start this process and then again be in consultation with friends who are doing the same type of work to see if if you're able to practice with it.

[20:52]

In other words, are you able to receive this information which you're going... when you receive this information from these people, your mind is going to create some images of what they're telling you. You're going to make up a story about what they're telling you. And some of those stories may be really horrible stories in your mind. So as these stories arise, you have to look to see, well, am I relaxing with them? Am I able to be gracious with them? Am I tensing up? And then, am I able to be vigilant and alert to these very horrible images I'm having in my mind? Am I able to be careful of them? Not hate them and not hold on to them. Not be dishonest about them. Not intoxicate myself so I can deal with them.

[21:55]

Not misuse sexuality so I can deal with them. Various observations on various addictive responses to these horrible images in order to deal with them. So that's working on yourself. So in order to help the people who are bringing you something such that you're creating in very intense imagery, in order to do that, you probably would need help, assistance for you to look at what's going on with you, to witness inwardly, to see if you're handling this skillfully. A lot of practice. Yeah, it's a lot of work, it's a lot of work to open to them, then it's a lot of work to work on yourself. and you need help, I think, you're doing right now, you're talking to me about making this decision to open to this. And I'm cautioning you to be careful. Be careful about whether you're going to be this generous. And are you ready to take this on? And it sounds like there's a question mark and I think that's a reasonable, it's good.

[23:01]

Questioning is part of the wisdom process. And then also prepare, not prepare exactly, but sort of understand that you're going to have to do a lot of work on yourself in order to do that work. And are you up for that? Do you have time to work on yourself and help these people? If you don't have time to work on yourself and you're just going to try to do them without any time working on yourself, that's no good. So you have to keep checking, am I relaxing with this? Am I sleeping okay? Things like that. It doesn't mean the answer has to always be, yes, I'm relaxing. Because if you can notice that you're not, then you can bring compassion to that you're not. And then maybe you can relax. If you relax, you have a good chance that these images will not, like, move in and get stuck in you. So you can let more horrible images in. You know? Because if you're meeting with these people and you can't let the horrible images in, then you're not going to be as helpful.

[24:05]

If you can actually show them, hey, look, this stuff can pass through me, then you want to help it to pass through them, right? Because we've all been in horrible situations. It's when we get stuck in them. It's when we tighten up and grasp them. And also, we've all been in pleasant situations, and they're okay, too, as long as we don't get stuck in them and grasp them. So if you can receive this material and let it pass through you, you can show them how to do it. If it gets stuck, you have to work. You're not going to be much help to them if it's getting stuck in you. You're just going to be reflecting back being stuck. But if you can open your body and mind and let it flow through because you're being gracious and relaxed and careful. It's not just open yourself and then not pay attention, like I said. You have to keep your eye on them. And keep your eye on them means keep your eye on the suffering, the specifics of it, in your body and your thoughts. If you can be alert and careful and open and patient with the pain, which means present with the pain and relaxed, then I think it's going to be good for you.

[25:14]

It's going to teach you how to process more of this world of suffering. And it's going to show others how to do it. And you're not going to be perfect. So you also have a practice of noticing, oh, I did tense up and feel some embarrassment about tensing up because you're here to teach relaxation. You're here, you know, or tensing up also in the form of stingy and protective because you're here to teach them to open up and, you know, and let this stuff flow through. They've been trying to protect themselves, but the way they've been doing it is it's not working the way they're doing it. So you want to teach them another way. So yeah, I think you are cut out for this, but at the same time, it may be that this is too advanced, that the pain of it, you don't have enough skill in relaxation and patience to deal with certain levels of pain. And if that becomes clear, you can just say, well, I'll come back later.

[26:16]

In a couple of years, I'll try again. Eventually, I want to be able to deal with this, but this is too advanced for me at this time in my practice. What have I said? It's advanced, but I'm going to try it. Advanced, well, you know, basically we should be taking on, we should be advancing, right? We should be advancing. We should not be keep doing what we already know how to do. We should keep trying things that are advanced. So another way of putting it is, and we have, you know, in Buddhist meditation, we have retreats that are more, you know, what are called different levels of intensity of retreats. And so sometimes people get into them and they say, this is really hard. And sometimes I feel like, yes. But I think, you know, I don't think it's too hard for you. But if they asked me beforehand, I would say, do you feel like this will be hard?

[27:22]

And they say, yes. And I say, do you feel like even though it's hard, you'll be able to follow through even when it gets hard? And they say, yes. I say, do you think you'll be able to follow through even when you think you can't follow through? And they say, no. I say, well, maybe wait for a while or don't do such a hard retreat if you think that when it gets hard and you think that you can't go on, that you won't be able to go on. Because it's not good to try... good things and then quit it's good to try good things that even when they're hard you have confidence you think that you'll be able to do it even when it gets to the point of you thinking I can't do it but you still do it but it's good to talk to somebody in that kind of training situation it's nice if you have a teacher or a senior who says this will be hard for you and uh... And do you think that you'll be able to, that you'll finish even though it's going to get really hard? And you might say, yes, I think so.

[28:22]

And they might say, I think you're right. And at that point, when you think you can't go on, I'll help you at that point. And I think maybe we can do it. But I do sometimes talk to people and they're going to try some hard kind of exercise, spiritual exercise program, and I sometimes feel like, And they're not sure that they can do it and not sure that they'll follow through if it gets too hard and say, well, maybe not. Let's take a little easier way of doing it. And then they do it and they say, that was hard too, but I finished. Okay, now let's try something a little harder if you want to. And let's see if you can finish it even when it gets hard. Most of our meditation retreats, most of the people somewhere in the retreat say, why am I here? Did I choose this? Yeah, but it's very important to clarify at the beginning that they did choose, so they can remember, I did choose this, nobody tricked me into this. Because if they don't notice that they chose this, they say, well, it's just a mistake, I didn't choose to be here.

[29:27]

But I did sign yesterday, I did say, so that helps, you know. Okay. As a matter of fact, I even had a little conversation about that I would get to this point and here I am. So yeah, good luck. I'm glad you're considering this great challenge. Anything else that you'd like to discuss? Please come. So a lot of your talk had to do with being a witness and also with the environment and how to witness suffering, how to witness, witness the environment, which includes all living beings.

[30:32]

Right. So I sell solar panels and have been doing so for about a year. And I've had about a thousand plus interactions with people. So I've been playing the role of a witness. My role is basically to listen in conversation and convince someone to listen to their needs and their desires. Wonderful. And convince them that going solar is a better choice. So are you witnessing yourself with the sense that you're going to convince them of something? Ultimately, that's my goal. That's how I'm compensated. It's how many sales I make. No, I mean, are you witnessing what's going on in you in terms of your suffering? Yes. Yes. It's two ways. So I can witness theirs and I witness my own.

[31:35]

And I have my reasons for doing what I choose to do. So my question is, in listening to others, in being the witness for others, how can I take myself out of my reasons for them to do something and make sure that they're owning their decisions? how can you take yourself out in your reasons so when I come to a situation I have my goal which is to make a sale and also I want them to do something good for the environment yes so how can I make sure that when they're making the decision they're doing it for their own reasons and not for mine I think it's okay, not just okay, I think it's good if they're making their decisions for your welfare.

[32:42]

That they're trying to help you. Not just you to make a sale so you can continue to do your work, but just so that they would be buying this to support your life and your study of yourself. It's okay if they're doing that. It's good if they are. So you don't have to separate your goals from their goals. But it's good to be aware of what your goals are and what theirs are. You don't have to separate them. But it's also good to be aware, are you choosing to do this for my welfare? It'd be good to know that they were. And they might say, yeah, I'm doing this partly for you. I'm buying these panels for all beings, which includes you. Yes, I am doing it for you. And I'm okay doing it for you. But that's because they're also trying to help the environment by buying this solar panel.

[33:47]

They're trying to help the environment. Maybe. Yeah, sometimes they're trying to help the environment. They could. And they're trying to help you. And you're trying to help them. You're trying to help them help the environment. And you're trying to help them be happy and be at ease. And if you notice and if you witness their dis-ease around various issues, you can witness that. And you can be doing that for their happiness. And they can feel that and they can witness theirs and show you even more. So you can witness more. And so then this kind of activity can be an opportunity to actually help the world. And the panels may be in accord with that. But the fundamental thing is that, I think, is that people are focused on the compassion and trying to help other living beings.

[34:52]

I'm betting that if we do that, if everybody gets in that program regardless of what happens to this planet we will be at peace with it and we will be happy because we're focused on the happiness of others and everybody that we're focused on happiness of theirs they're focusing on the happiness of others and we'll do really well with whatever's happening at the environment no matter what stories we tell about it because whatever stories we tell about it we will be compassionate towards those stories And people may be buying and selling solar panels or not. I don't know what will be going on if we get to the state where everybody's practicing compassion and everybody's wise. We still might have babies and eat food. I don't know. We're not there yet. So I'm betting on increasing compassion, increasing witnessing, increasing kindness towards our stories of others and our stories of ourself.

[36:07]

And increasing their compassion towards their stories of us and their stories of themselves. I'm betting on that. And I welcome all solar panel salesman. And all customers. And all drillers of the earth. I welcome them. In other words, I vow to welcome them. If I can't, then I vow to be kind to myself in my inability to welcome the drillers, the exploiters. I vow to welcome them because that welcoming will convert them to compassion. And if they can somehow keep drilling with compassion, that will be a miracle, which I will witness how they could do that, how they could find a way to compassionately drill in the earth.

[37:10]

There may be such a way. I don't know. Right now, I haven't seen it or heard about it. Nobody's even saying there is a way like that. The people we're drilling are not lying and saying, this is really good for the environment. It really helps the earth to drill these holes. I haven't heard anybody say that. But they do say, well, it helps the environment, makes jobs. Yeah, I heard that. And it's not that bad compared to that. I heard that. But maybe if people are more compassionate, we find a way to deal with their energy needs. more skillfully. But in the meantime, where we are now, let's have more compassion for the people who are suffering and doing things we think are unskillful. And then when we have unskillful thoughts in our mind, let's be compassionate to our unskillful thoughts. And there's plenty of those. There's plenty of unskillful thoughts here and there. So there's lots of opportunities for compassion and therefore lots of possibilities of wisdom and doing things more skillfully and more in accord with what's beneficial for peace, nor accord with peace and freedom.

[38:23]

So I hope you do that work while you're selling or while you're interacting with these people. I hope you do that work. You want to, right? That's great. Thank you. You're welcome. Please come. Please. So you spoke about witnessing suffering, and I want to ask about the suffering of physical pain, as well as psychological pain, but more specifically physical pain, both for myself personally and professionally. dealt with a lot of pain in my body for years due to trauma, different things that have happened.

[39:29]

Yes. But, and also the frustration of doing many things to try to heal that. Yes. And it's sort of not happening yet. Excuse me, you're doing things to heal the pain in the body? Mm-hmm. So, A, just talking about dealing with pain, but for myself personally, but also for myself professionally, I work as a physician assistant, so I deal with a lot of people who are suffering in pain. Do you want to bring this huge area to any particular point in your question? I guess the particular point would be dealing with the experience of the pain. and or counseling others? Well, you know, in Zen practice, we're not primarily here to cause or encourage pain in the practitioners.

[40:33]

We're not here for that reason. That's not our main thing. It's like, please come in here so we can help you feel more pain. That's not what we're here for. But a lot of people who come and sit here, when they sit for a while, they start to notice that they're uncomfortable. I was in a yoga class one time. At the end of the yoga class, the teacher had us do what's called the corpse pose, where you lie and it's kind of comfortable. And the teacher said, while we were lying down, the teacher said, if you stay in any position long enough... And I thought she was going to say, you will experience exquisite joy or something. But she said, no. She said, if you stay in any position long enough, you will discover you're uncomfortable. She said, even when people are sleeping, they're constantly adjusting their posture because they get slightly uncomfortable while they're asleep. And people in easy chairs, all padded easy chairs, they still keep moving around every now and then because they get slightly uncomfortable.

[41:38]

And nobody's saying to them when they're in the easy chair, don't move. They don't say, oh, I'm going to sit down in this chair and not move for 40 minutes. Most people don't do that. But in sitting meditation, we often say, well, just sit down and sit still. I'm going to go sit down there and sit still for 10 minutes, 15 minutes, half an hour, an hour. So we do that. And when we do that, we often notice that we're uncomfortable. So we have a lot of experience here of getting in touch with discomfort, which a lot of people would just move as soon as they felt it. And if you move, it often will... your discomfort will kind of not be aware of it anymore. So we have, by sitting still, it doesn't exactly cause the discomfort, although sometimes it does, it more like gets us aware of it. And then we have a chance to practice compassion towards it. So a big part of our practice is to put ourselves in a situation where we would discover our discomfort mentally and physically.

[42:41]

Like some people are running around so fast that they don't notice that they're sad. And they come in here, they're running around and talking, so they don't notice that they're sad. So then they sit down and stop talking, and this big sadness comes up in them, which was there, you know. Their wife just died or whatever, and they're just so busy and so talkative that they just don't feel the sadness or the grief. They sit still and it comes up. So in this practice, mental and physical awareness discomfort are revealed and then we practice compassion towards them. Now does the compassion heal it? Before it heals it something good starts happening. So we have the image of mud and we put a seed of compassion in the mud and the mud's still mud pain, passion, still passion, and then seed goes in there, and then if it stays after it stays for a while, it starts to germinate and make, put out roots, and the roots start to feel and encounter the mud.

[43:57]

So we put compassion in our body and mind, and the compassion starts to embrace the suffering by being generous and careful and patient. Does it heal the suffering? Maybe. But it grows compassion even whether the suffering is healed or not. So it grows this spiritual practice which is the root of the wisdom. And this flower grows up in it. In the meantime, do the roots benefit the suffering? Yes, they do. Do they heal it? No. It might be healed by some other means, but the compassion doesn't really heal the mud. But the roots don't heal the mud, but they benefit the mud. They benefit the mud. The compassion benefits the mud, even without taking the mud away. And then also the compassion is the basis for this wisdom, this flower and this fruit.

[45:02]

And that is the healing of the mud. that is making something that is making peace and happiness and joy out of mud and sun and the seed. It's not just the mud, not just the mud, not just suffering, it's suffering plus the seed which wants to embrace the mud. It's suffering plus the seed which wants to encounter and nurture and benefit the mud. And that produces the healing of it. But before the healing comes, before the wisdom comes, which actually liberates the beings from the mud, the mud's still there, by the way. The mud hasn't gone away. But there's a liberation from the mud in the flower and the fruit. So the liberation from the mud and the mud coexist. The suffering and the freedom coexist. But before there's the freedom and the peace with the mud,

[46:03]

There's the roots in the mud, and the roots are already beneficial. There's a living, vibrant compassion practice which is growing in the mud, and liberation has not yet come. But there's joy in being generous towards the pain, and there's joy in being ethical with the pain, and there's joy in being patient with the pain. And then there's joy of being calm and focused on the welfare of all these suffering beings. And then, based on those practices of engaging the mud and growing this concentrated mind, comes the flower, which actually is the freedom from the illness coexisting with the illness. Because there's no end to that illness until all beings are wise. you're welcome and the yogi does it to herself inwardly she puts the roots down in her own suffering and then she goes out and puts the roots down in her stories of other people and they watch her witnessing them and putting down roots in her their her story of them so then they can put down roots in their stories of themselves and their stories of her and then we grow we we

[47:31]

we cause each other, we assist each other in growing these beautiful lotus flowers. So, thank you very much. I hope you have a long life of helping people with their suffering. And yes, please come. The mask man, yes. The mask man. It says, hi, Reb, please read this for me. Reporting in. I walked through the Green Gulch kitchen wearing this aspirational mask.

[48:33]

And the baker saw this and he said, bake it till you make it. Please come. I think I just got an answer to my question on that note. But what I would like to ask you is, well, first of all, I would like to thank you very much for your guidance.

[49:42]

And I also want to ask you if there's anything more that we can do to help you. anything more than you've done so far? You mean from now on? Yes. Please tell me what you'd like me to know about you. Please show me every bit of your heart. If you have any aspirations living there, please tell me about it. And then I can ask you if you want me to help you with that. Now I can feel my hand really clenching my leg here. Because it's really hard for me to talk about that in front of a big group. You don't have to do it now. You can do it. In a secret place. Okay. Because I feel really shy.

[50:45]

I guess right now my aspiration is just to be helpful to you. And so I'm just asking you honestly if there's anything that we can do or that I can personally do to help you. Asking me that question was helpful. Thank you for asking it. And I think continuing to ask that question you know, repeatedly asking me that question would be helpful. And by the way, I also thought of something else while you were talking and that is if you do ask that question, it would be helpful to me if while you asked the question you witnessed me. And also, while you asked the question, that you witnessed yourself. And you did it. You noticed you were clenching your thigh. That was good. You were witnessing yourself while you were witnessing me and listening to me, which I appreciate. And please continue to witness me while you look at me and while you listen to me.

[51:51]

And witness me when you're talking to me and I'm listening to you. Witness my listening to you. Okay? And witness yourself while you're listening to me and talking to me. Witness if you're tensing up while you're talking or relaxing while you're talking. Whether you're tensing while you're listening or relaxing. So it would help me if you would witness yourself. Witness yourself. That would help me. In other words, don't get me to do all the witnessing. Share the responsibility of witnessing with me Okay? That would be helpful to me. Okay. And also witness both you and me and witness both you and everybody else. That would be helpful to me. That would help me do my work. And that would make my work successful. If you would do that, that would make me a success. And if you don't, he offers me an opportunity to witness that and we go on from there.

[52:56]

Okay. It's hard for me to do all three at the same time. Yeah, but it would help. Live in front of a public audience. It would help me if you did. Okay. And also, if you come to me in a private space, I would like you to continue to witness how you feel when you're telling me about yourself. Okay. Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you. And I think your question not just helped me, but I think it helped everybody. Thank you. What time is it? Is it time to stop? It's getting close. Yes, please come. I have a situation where I have chosen to move to be close to my son who was a severe alcoholic.

[54:17]

And I don't know how to help him. I don't think I can. You don't think you can help him? I don't know how. You don't know how. Well, do you want me to say something? Pardon? Do you want me to say something about that? I think it would help your son... It would help your son and it would help me if you would witness yourself. Witness the pain you feel about your boy. And witnessing the pain you feel about your boy is compassion with your sense of who he is. And your compassion toward your sense of who he is will be conveyed to him. So you have to look to see, can you welcome the pain you feel for your boy, for his way of dealing with pain?

[55:22]

Can you find generosity towards that pain? And can you be alert and careful with the pain you feel? And can you be patient with the pain you feel? That will help him, whether he sees your face or not, for his father to be taken care of his pain about his son for you to take care of that compassionately helps your son whether you see him again or not I propose that to you and if you live long enough and keep doing this practice you will become more skillful at being compassionate with the pain you feel about your boy and at some point you'll get to a place where you can develop concentration on his welfare based on your compassion to your suffering. And with that kind, concentrated mind that's generous and so on to your own feeling, you have a chance to go practice that with everybody you meet and eventually with him, and he's probably the most difficult person for you to meet when he's suffering.

[56:34]

as you work on yourself you will be eventually able to meet him and show him his father is there and his father loves him even though he's doing something that his father thinks is really really unskillful and his father sees him doing something which his father thinks is hurting his son and that's the most terrible thing for you but you still love him and welcome him and from that place And you're also careful of him. And you're careful of what you say to him. And you're careful not to, for example, disparage him in any way. You're careful not to speak of him in a slandering way. Even though you see unskillfulness, if you speak of it, the way you speak of it just makes everybody care more for him. The way you speak of it encourages your generosity towards him. And the way you speak of it does not put yourself above him. you're concerned with him without thinking you're better and so on.

[57:40]

You're careful and generous and you're also in the center of the pain you feel. This will help him. If you can do this, you can show him that you're working this way and he will be encouraged to practice this way for himself. And if he does, he may gradually be able to give up the things he's doing now which aren't beneficial to his suffering. This is how you can help him. And it's not, of course it's very hard, but it's very good. I really believe it's very good for you to do these practices on yourself right here, right now. And when you drive out of here to practice that way with yourself and keep working on yourself until you develop more confidence that you can do the same thing towards your stories about him. Thank you all very much for this kind of heavy discussion today.

[58:50]

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