or we can go through the door into liberation. So one side of the door is awakening, the other side of the door is delusion, and we're at the door, and we can go through the door of liberation. But what I'm suggesting now is more like where liberation and bondage meet. And we can live at that doorway, at that threshold. Every step is at the threshold where delusion and awakening meet. And that the conversation between delusion and awakening at this threshold, that's where there is the true understanding. of reality. Tonight I'd like to say a little bit more about life at the threshold, or life at the doorway.

[01:14]

Another part of the doorway being open, we eventually could see both sides, and we could see them in relationship with each other. And there's many two worlds that are in a dualistic relationship or apparently dualistic relationship with each other. Another one would be the relationship between sense organs and sense objects or sense fields. So we're living at a threshold where sense objects, sense organs, and the field of those sense organs meets.

[02:28]

We live at that threshold. engagement. And in early Buddhism, the Buddha taught early on that when a sense organ plays with or interacts with a sense field, that interaction gives rise to consciousness. Or you could say experience. For example, when the eye organ interacts with the field of electromagnetic radiation of a certain wavelength, that interaction gives rise to what we call, we name the awareness after the organ

[03:35]

is called eye consciousness. And eye consciousness is aware of, for example, colors. So the awareness of a color is said to arise from the meeting of the eye organ and the eye, the field of eye, the eye, the field of colors. And again, that's the way it usually said is that the awareness, the experience arises from this engagement, from this conversation between the eye organ field, the visual field. But I think it's worthy of contemplation to say rather than the organ arises from the interaction that the awareness arises from the interaction as though it's afterwards.

[04:40]

To say the awareness co-arises with the interaction. The awareness of colors co-arises with physical waves, magnetic waves interacting with living tissue. And the same with the sense of hearing, the hearing organ, and sounds. The experience of sounds arises. So on with all the other touch and tangibles gives rise to a sensation of body sensation, tactile sensation. experience of the skin organ. And then with mind objects like ideas, feelings, judgments, opinions, fear, confusion, greed, hatred, and so on, faith, lack of faith, shame, lack of shame, mental phenomena,

[06:01]

Those are the objects of the mind organ. And when they are interacting, we have the arising of an experience. And this, I'm suggesting that this interaction is occurring right now, all of us, at the threshold in this experience that we're having right now is occurring at the threshold where these two kinds of materiality meet or two kinds of mentality meet like where mind means mind object. So when these fields meet at the threshold that's an experience and that's the early Buddhism. Then in the Mahayana and for some people who are in so-called Zen, they ascribe to this teaching, is that when the eye organ meets the eye object, that is actually the whole universe.

[07:16]

In the form, in the particular case, of the eye organ meeting the whole universe in the form of color. Our of color, our awareness of color is actually the whole universe meeting the whole universe. giving rise to the whole universe as the experience of color. This teaching is inspired by the Lotus Sutra. The teaching which includes the earlier revelation arises when

[08:21]

organs and objects meet, or when subject and object meet, that that is the arising of an experience. Now we're saying that when the universe as a subject, as an object, we give rise to the universe. Another way to say this is we live our body is in conversation with other bodies. Where my body is in conversation with your body. And the meeting conversation of my body with your body is experience.

[09:28]

You could say, in this particular case, bodily experiences. We have a verse which is done when bowing, and one line of the verse is, my body, other body, not two. So if I bow to you like I did tonight, this body, the other body, are not two. Because experience is, the experience is of my body meeting your body. That's the experience. Experience can never be separated. Just my body cannot be experienced. It's my body in relationship to other bodies that is experienced.

[10:32]

It's not that my body in relationship to other bodies can be experienced. It is experience. Another point of review is that this is another way to talk about only a Buddha together with Buddha. And also I emphasized earlier that this only a Buddha together with a Buddha that the only Buddha side, let me just say it this way, that this only a Buddha together with the Buddha is what the Lotus Sutra says. That's the situation for understanding reality.

[11:36]

And that only a Buddha together with Buddha could be the Zen teaching, which is wholehearted sitting and going to meet with another. Those two together are only a Buddha together with a Buddha. And then I taught the practice of receiving and remembering and practicing stillness and silence is a practice of realizing only a Buddha. It's your part, you're doing your job of being a solitary Buddha when you remember silence and stillness.

[12:39]

And I also think I mentioned that confession and repentance, tell me if I, I don't remember how much I said it in this venue, in this assembly. But practicing confession and repentance is a way to settle in. Silence and stillness is a way to settle into being a solitary Buddha. Once we have settled into being ourself, then we can meet another. Our sense organs normally do settle into being themselves. And I've heard that sense organs only operate when they're resting. So sense organs, when they operate, or they're activated, and then they function, but they're activated when they're at rest.

[13:55]

Once they're activated, they cannot again until they rest. I remember in college, I read an article in Scientific American about these, I think they were physicists, but they, or physicists, and they designed this device that could sit on top of a, what do you call it? A contact lens. So we have many, many people now wear and this physicist or engineer designed a device which could be set on top of the contact lens so that when the eye moved, Oh, excuse me, it was a device.

[14:58]

It was a light. Not a camera, but a light, a small, tiny light installed on top of a contact lens so it could shine a light on the retina at the same spot so that when the retina moved, the light would not move. It would point at the same spot. If you point light at the same spot on a retina, which you usually can't because... the eyeball's moving all the time. But if you shine the light on the same spot in the retina, it activates it, but then it doesn't go on again until you move the light off the spot. So in fact, our organic being of our organs, that when our organs are at rest, they can be activated, they can be engaged. You can have conversations with them. But then they have to rest again in order to be reactivated. So remembering style is a way to stay in touch or to re-engage, to re-encounter experience.

[16:10]

Once again, at the threshold where the two worlds meet, by remembering stillness, We re-engage with having secrets told to us. We re-engage with the arising of experience. We re-engage with creation. Now, it goes on anyway, but if we forget the silence and stillness, we miss it. Well, I think that's a lot. And if you have any questions or comments you'd like to make, I'm ready.

[17:15]

Hello. Hello. when I watch your face a lot, I have kind of a paranormal. I have seen like, I've seen you, I've seen faces move through your face a lot. I've seen lights flicker through your face. And like once you were moving a glass and I saw a trail of like light go from the glass down. I guess I want some way to understand, I don't guess everybody sees it this way. And so I don't think I'm crazy. But what do you make of that?

[18:15]

How does that fit in all this? Well, here's a theory. Want a theory? And the theory is partly generated by data. Here's the data. Many people tell me what you just told me. So either many people are crazy with you, or maybe none of you are crazy. What I'm talking about is that I think when people look at me, I think they actually, well, I think when people look at me, the theory is that when they look at me, they remember silence and stillness. You know, even when they're not, They remember silence and stillness. And when you remember silence and stillness, unusual things are allowed to happen. Silence and stillness allows a lot of stuff to happen.

[19:17]

It allows the breeze . So the theory is that when you're looking at me, and also when you're listening to me, you're remembering whether you're conscious or not, You're receiving and remembering stillness. And so you, in stillness, your body, visual things happen. For example, people see me as a baby, as a little baby. And when I was young, they used to see me as an old man. And now people see me, I think, as a super old man. They still see me as a baby sometimes. And yeah, people see me in a lot of different ways and they tell me that they're surprised how different I, and they see me changing. In one meeting, they see me changing to different things.

[20:19]

And that's one theory is that people, when they're with me, they're actually not running around in circles Jumping up and down, they're quiet and still. Or even if they're not, even if they're talking or moving a little bit, they're remembering it. That's my theory. So do you think that's seeing reality? Or do you think, yeah. It's seeing reality to see that I'm not a fixed thing. Yes, because I'm not. To see the impermanence of me, but also to see the impermanence of the way you see me. Because, you know, even I don't want to be the same, but some people try to, you know, they want me to be the same. So like children often, they look at their parents, but they cannot tolerate their parents changing much. So they, and there's reasons for it. So they, and they're very active and noisy and they want to keep their mommy and daddy being exactly the same person all the time.

[21:28]

So in a way, they don't let their parents change much in their own view. So it's a combination of I'm changing, which is reality, but also is changing too. And when you're relaxed, and harmonious and remembering silence and stillness, you get to see that I'm changing, but you also get to see you see me different ways. Thank you. You're welcome. Hello, Rob. Good evening, Yuki. I ask you about that description of experience. Is it sense organ, sense object, experience? It seems to me that when experience happens that way, a sense of self arises along with it.

[22:37]

In Normally, when human consciousness arises, and it can arise in a moment of awareness of a color, usually human consciousness has a sense of self arising in it. Yes. Is that inevitable? I think it's inevitable, yeah. Now, to go into more detail, I will in a minute, but for the time being, the sense of self arises with consciousness. Yes. And this teaching about how consciousness arises, namely it doesn't arise by itself, and the self that's in consciousness doesn't make the consciousness. The consciousness doesn't arise by the self in the consciousness making the consciousness. The consciousness which has a self in it arises because interaction

[23:41]

of subject and object. That interaction gives rise to it. So when the consciousness arises with the sense of self in it, it often arises with various delusions along with the sense of self. For example, there's a sense of self and there's a delusion that the self is in control of various things that are going on in the consciousness. Like the self, there could be the and there could be a delusion that the self made the color come, or the self made the consciousness of color arise, or that the self is in control of the various intentions and karmic activities of the consciousness. deluded afflictions, and they arise with the self. With studying of this situation, which I'm doing with you right now, it is possible that we will no longer be fooled by these delusions, that we can have experience, there's a sense of self, and in which there's delusions about the self.

[25:07]

For example, There can be the delusion that the self is in control of what's going on in consciousness. And even while that delusion is there, we can learn that it is just an illusion. It's not true. But there is that thought. Like, I don't know what, what just came to my mind was my grandson used to come out to Green Gulch to visit And when he was a little boy, that area of Green Gulch had had lots of toys in it. And he told me once that those toys were his. Like the first time he came to Green Gulch, he told me those toys were his. He told me he came sometime in the past and put those toys there. We actually think that way. We think that what's in our consciousness, we ourselves put that stuff in there.

[26:11]

But it's not true. However, if you study your consciousness, you can see how silly that is. But you have to study it. Well, the thing that comes up for me is that the illusion that that self-worth will persist even though the experience subsides. The experience, a moment of experience, one of the moments of experience is that the self will continue. That's an illusion. The self doesn't continue. However, the self does arise again in the next moment of experience. So if I now in my consciousness think, consciousness there will be a self, that probably will be verified in the next consciousness. However, I do not have to get rid of the sense of self in order to be free of believing that my self is in control of what I'm thinking.

[27:19]

It's not. What I'm thinking, when subject and object come together, When object and organ come together, either physical object, when physical sense and physical object, physical sense and mental object come together, there is an arising of consciousness. It has a sense of self in it. It has delusions in it. But the self is not in control of any of that. However, there is the afflictive thought. self is in control and by listening to the teaching and contemplating consciousness you can see that that is simply an erroneous idea and you can let it be there you don't have to get rid of it matter of fact it's useful because you can have it in your consciousness and you can be who have it in their consciousness and you're understanding that it's not true you can help them see that it's not true in their consciousness either

[28:29]

So they have the same delusion, but they have the same illusion, but they believe it, therefore it's a delusion. But you can talk with them and you can point out to them their consciousness and find out that those are not true. So it's useful. It's a skillful device to have these afflictions in your consciousness. All these afflictions are actually skillful means that you can use to teach other people who have these afflictions them and become free of them without getting rid of them it's like a magician who maybe when when she first saw the magic trick was fooled by it then she became an apprentice of the magician and she learned how these illusions were created she used to see them created but she knows that they're just a trick and she can teach other people to see that they're just a trick Now there's a time when there's no more consciousness because consciousness has been completely transformed into wisdom.

[29:40]

And there's no consciousness anymore. There's just radiant wisdom. So there is that stage of development. But prior to that stage where we don't even have consciousness anymore, where there's just wisdom, which illuminates all other consciousnesses, prior to that, of these afflictions by studying them, which we're doing right now in this conversation. Thank you. You're welcome. Sean. We're up. Would you be able to share a couple examples of when Suzuki Roshi helped you to remember silence?

[30:41]

Well, first of all, let me use an example where Suzuki Roshi helped me realize that I had forgotten stillness and silence. Okay? So, and I have many more. I went to Zen Center partly to find a Zen teacher. I wanted to study Zen. And I met him. And I quickly accepted him as a Zen teacher. And I had a great opportunity to spend time with him. And I set up my life. I would be available if he ever was willing to spend time with me. And so he noticed that I was there all the time. So he did offer me chances to be with him. And then sometimes when he gave me a chance to be with him, which is what I really wanted, right? And I arranged my life so that I could be with him. And then he offered me the chance to be with him. And then I wanted to get away from him because it was so wonderful to be with him.

[31:50]

So he showed me him, you know, in a way, he showed me an embarrassing thing about myself, how I was having trouble just being there with him. And another example of where he showed me how I wasn't able to be silent and silent was when we went to do a session in Portland, Oregon. And on the way back... Oh, no. And during the session, he became very sick. And we found out later that he was having a gallbladder attack. Tremendous pain. And then we went back to San Francisco on the plane together. And I was seated next to him. And he showed me... He and his pain showed me how I was...

[32:56]

really having a hard time sitting in my seat next to my teacher. And I knew I should be sitting next to my teacher and should be there for my teacher. But I was noticing that part of me was trying to get away from my seat and go to Hawaii. So he showed me in those two cases and others. Me was my lack of, uh, accepting the opportunity to be silent and still. So one way to teach somebody something is to show them that they don't know how to do it. And when he showed me that, I knew that what I wasn't doing, I knew what I wanted to do. I wanted to be there, silent and still with him. I was doing the silent part okay. but I wasn't really still. And he showed me that I wasn't.

[33:58]

And by showing, he helped me remember what I wanted to be, namely sitting completely next to him. So, yeah, so he showed me by showing me how I wasn't. And he made that I could accept that I wasn't. And by accepting that I wasn't, I was. And I don't usually tell this part of the story, but I think I eventually did settle into my seat next to him. Stop trying to run away. And it's not a very long trip from Portland to San Francisco, but I think by the time we got back, I was kind of like there with him. But he helped me find my place next to him by first of all showing me

[34:59]

that I was having trouble finding my place next to him. Which is a normal, usually when you teach somebody something, they start off not knowing how to do it. So he taught me about how to accept and remember stillness by showing me where I lacked in that practice. And by accepting his teaching, I settled into the practice. Okay. Good evening. Good evening. So good to be here again with you and the rest of the assembly. So there were many that you said and others said leading up to this question.

[36:07]

I just wanted to share something that was interesting and kind of related to some of the things we've been talking about here. On the second night of the Lotus Sutra intensive, when Intensive. On the second night, I had this dream of you. And it was a very interesting dream. So I was in what was supposed to be your office with somebody else. And there was somebody else in the dream who I don't know who it was, but there was two of us in your office. And then you walked in and you didn't look like you. So this is about the changing forms, you know, we were talking about. But I knew it was you in my dream. You were a black man. I mean, you were African-American kind of. And you were bald, but you had a little bit of hair at the end. I mean, so you didn't look like you. But I knew in my dream. And so I greeted you. And then you said, have you been here before?

[37:07]

Yes. And I said, no. And I was kind of feeling a little confused and like I wanted to get out of there, like just like you and Suzuki Roshi in a way. Like, you know, I didn't want to really be there. I wanted to kind of. And then you looked at me and you said, well, why not? You know, the door has always been open. And then you said, sit. And you pointed to a chair and you said, sit. And that was the end of the dream. But the next morning when I was, I mean, your words, I mean, it was so real. The dream was so vivid. Your words were so, like the way you said sit was so firm and yet kind. And it kind of rang in my mind, meditation practice, you know, it was just kind of like, you know, every time I'd go somewhere, it's like, okay, sit, you know, just sit, sit, you know, just be in silence and stillness, you know.

[38:09]

So it was a very interesting dream. I just wanted to share that because it was, because there was the door, you know, this thing of a door coming into a door kind of and saying, well, it's always been open, why didn't before it was like it was it was that kind of uh it was it was a very beautiful dream and i've been kind of um contemplating it a little bit since then so i didn't know yeah thank you yeah you said it was interesting but i think your second comment was more to the point it was beautiful beautiful dream yeah and when i was a young priest i used to tell people to sit but then i stopped Now I'm much happier that you find that message in your own mind. Yeah. That, you know, that I can help you, help you hear that in your own mind. Yeah. Is that what you want? Yeah. And that you can say it to yourself or that, you know, in a kind, settled way.

[39:14]

Yeah, that's wonderful. When you say, feel any coercion no it was beautiful but i felt goosebumps uh-huh it was so it was so moving to hear that sit sit yeah it was very beautiful and there's one other thought i just want to share before i say bye um What you're talking about today about the sense organs meeting sense objects and the self arising or co arising along with the. with the sense and the sense objects. There's a very beautiful verse posed by Narayana Guru, who was a saint who lived in the 19th century and early 20th century. And the verse goes like this.

[40:14]

It says, in and beyond... that shines at once within and without the knower is the karu. It's a word. It's not translated. It just says karu. To that, with the five senses withheld, straight again and again with devotion and chant." And so what you said kind of reminded me of that verse. In and beyond the knowledge which shines at once, within and without the knower, is the karu. He calls it the karu. You could call it Buddha nature. Good stuff. Sorry? Good stuff. Yeah, good stuff. And to that, with the five senses withheld, prostrate again and again.

[41:19]

Chant. So anyway, it just came to me. I wanted to share that. Thank you. And that's similar to the bowing chant that I said earlier. Mm-hmm. So when bowing to the Buddha, we have a chant which says, This nature. Mm-hmm. Oh, no. One bowing, the one who's bowing, the one who's bowed to, their nature, no nature. This body, the other body, the one I'm bowing to, not to. What we're bowing to is not the other. We're bowing to the other, but really we're bowing to the not to of the bower and the bowed to. Mm-hmm. We plunge into that space of the non-separation, bowing and the bowed to.

[42:22]

Yeah. Thank you. And were you born in India? Yes, I was born in India. So are you Indian? Are you an Indian person? I am an American citizen now. I came here for my graduate studies. So I've been here for 25 some odd years in the U.S. So you're Indian, and I just thought of a Sanskrit word, which I was going to mention earlier. Sanskrit word is... And the Buddha used that term, which we translate into English as... door of arrival. Ayatana is translated as door of arrival or door of arising. And the Buddha taught 12 of them. And the 12 ayatanas are eye organ, field of visual field, ear organ, auditory field,

[43:35]

nose organ, nose, and so on. They're sense organs and the five sense objects, and then mind organ and mind objects. That makes 12. And they're called ayatanas, which means doors of arrival or doors of arising. And in the Heart Sutra, no eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body, mind, no colors, sounds, smells, touch, tastes, or mind objects. So in the Heart Sutra says, it goes through and says, in emptiness, none of these aren't there. In emptiness, these two aren't there. These things where consciousness arises, they aren't there. So this interaction occurs, but the things interacting have no substantial existence.

[44:43]

Because again, there's no sense organ without sense object. A sense organ isn't a sense organ until it's touched. And when sense organ and sense object are touched, we have sense consciousness. There's no sense consciousness separate from sense organ touching sense objects. So none of these elements in this arising, none of them have any substantial independent existence. And therefore are empty. And therefore are empty. Therefore they're empty, and in emptiness we don't have them. Hmm. Beautiful. Yeah. Very beautiful. Yeah. Part of the, while I was also in the intensive, the Lotus Sutra intensive, I learned how to sing. I was also meditating on the Heart Sutra. was doing it was I learned how to sing it in Sanskrit, the whole Atsutra.

[45:44]

And it was a very beautiful way to meditate on it, to just sing it. And then, you know, in Sanskrit, which I copied from somebody else who was on YouTube or something. And so it was a very beautiful way to meditate on it. So I had a little bit going and then the Lotus Sutra going at the same time. It was my season for Buddhism. The Lotus Sutra was kind of born. from the Prajnaparamita. And many people, I think, would love to learn how to chant the Heart Sutra in Sanskrit, but we haven't quite got there yet in the West. Maybe sometime in the future. It's very beautiful. Thank you, Rev. Thank you. Hi, Rev. Hello. Should I say Mei or Mei Xu? Mei, it's okay. Mei, it's okay.

[46:46]

Wow. Well, I don't know. So great to meet everyone. And I feel like somehow I was in gender intensive right now. I feel like I'm in a dream, which is... I'm in the butterfly's dream or butterflies is dreaming me. I have no idea. But I just, now this is the third. Okay, I'm back. I'm back. And now this is the third night. I really deeply appreciate your prayer for silent and stillness. I think when I contemplate, when I do meditation, I feel like your prayers is like a rain. you know, your moisture hour, just, you know, kind of like making that, you know, the dharma ring. And I didn't hear you mention about store conscious often, but you always mention conscious.

[47:51]

And then also apologize because I'm very analytical person, you know, I hate to use my to cut reality into pieces, but it is something about Alaya, you know, monas, you know, or consciousness. So consciousness to me is almost like a show directed by ego, right? So if ego is director, so in, but when we're in this silent and stillness, Are we in Alaya? I'm just curious because Alaya, we don't have judgment, which is no duality, right? And there's something always in my experience. I also come from scientific world as well. And then there's a saying like, okay, when you watch a flower, When your mind doesn't rise, the concept of flower and you and flower, it is the same thing.

[48:58]

It's together. But when you somehow, you say, oh, this is a flower, boom, quantum collapsed. You know, so now just like, I think, I still try to figure it out. I still try to figure it out, even though I, you know, hopefully that was in vain, but When these two worlds meet, something arrives. So that something comes from alaya or the light. And also when you talk about consciousness, so that consciousness is already filtered by light. Before you bring up too much for me to deal with, can I... Sure. So, when the Buddha gave this teaching, he was talking about the arising of consciousness. He was not talking about the arising of... And the Buddha... The phase of Buddhism where...

[50:09]

the disciples of Buddha developed this teaching of alaya was developing what the Buddha did about. The Buddha mostly was talking about when these two things come together, that's the arising of consciousness where there's a sense of self. Now, the later teaching is that the foundation of the arising of consciousness when these subject and object meet, the foundation of it is the storehouse consciousness, is the alaya. And there is not, as far as we know, there's no sense of self. However, the alaya, the storehouse, which is the unconscious, the embodied unconscious, that that supports the arising of the consciousness where there's an idea of self and the in the consciousness one of its consequences is that it puts usually puts down seeds in as cause as effects into the storehouse consciousness again so there will be more consciousness arising with a sense of self

[51:37]

So, again, the early Buddhism, the Buddha did not explain in detail about the storehouse consciousness. He did say a few words about it. Yes? In Heart Sutra, beyond consciousness, there's a verse. In the Heart Sutra, it says that an emptiness... There's no consciousness. There's no feelings, no perceptions. It talks about the five aggregates. One of them is consciousness. Then it goes through and talks about the sixth sense consciousness. It talks about the 18 elements, which has, again, six consciousnesses. All those consciousnesses you cannot find in emptiness because... None of them can be found because they have no substantial definitive existence. The Heart Sutra is saying, teaching us about wisdom, and wisdom sees the nature of consciousness.

[52:47]

Wisdom sees that consciousness is something that basically is arising because not it coming together. So consciousness has no independent existence. It just arises with these other things and it's nothing in addition to them. And the wisdom understands that. And I would be happy to, if you can, to integrate discussions of how the storehouse consciousness plays into only a Buddha together with Buddha, how the storehouse consciousness plays a role in Zen meditation, because it does. But I have not been talking about the storehouse consciousness, but once again, the foundation of the storehouse consciousness is the embodied unconscious.

[53:52]

And the activities that occur in consciousness at the very moment they transform the unconscious. Wow. And then the next moment has an unconscious which gives rise to a new consciousness. So part of the consequence of karma is the constant transformation of the storehouse consciousness. That's why In consciousness, we should study what's going on and also study and understand our confusion about the relationship between the self and the activities of consciousness. By studying that relationship, we can become free of these misunderstandings. Consequences of consciousness will be positive transformations of its foundation, which is the storehouse consciousness. Thank you for bringing it up.

[54:56]

Thank you. Linda. Hi. Yeah, I was waiting for Sonia to ask her question, and I was going to raise my hand after that, but then Sonia's hand went away. So I'm at... What? Invite Sonia's hand back. I'm inviting Sonia's hand back, and I quickly put my hand up so that you wouldn't end the meeting. I have a question. You said that the self does not control what we think, right? That's right. I did say that. Does the self control what we do? The self does not control anything. So then you again about how you learned from being with Suzuki Roshi.

[56:04]

how he showed you that you were not present with him in silence and stillness. And then at some point, he showed you so well that you accepted to be there. And is there somebody who accepts? Well, there's somebody there when the acceptance occurs. Is that just like a mysterious event that happens, the acceptance? You could say, I'm okay with mysterious. And I could tell a story about it, but that story isn't necessarily the way it happens. So I'm with him, right? Yeah. But I'm not with him. And I notice that. And I'm embarrassed because I know enough about Zen to know that you're supposed to be with your teacher when you're with your teacher. I knew I wanted to be with him. I was very happy to go to Portland with him.

[57:06]

It was an honor to be his attendant. And the job of the attendant is to be with the person he's attending to. And I wasn't really wholeheartedly doing it. And I noticed that he also helped me notice it. If he wasn't there, I wouldn't have noticed that I wasn't really there, right? So he helped me. So just noticing it was that... I didn't make myself notice it, right? He helped me. But he could... There was another side of him in the seat too, but they may not have been there either, but maybe they didn't think, hey, I'm not present in my seat next to this Japanese guy. I don't know what they thought. But anyway, I did think that. And... He also helped me, I would say, accept that I wasn't doing my job. And I think when I accepted that I wasn't doing my job of being there, I started to be there. But the self was not in charge of this process.

[58:11]

It was something I was doing with him. So I was there all those moments. there was an I in those consciousnesses, but the I was not in control of that process. I did not make myself not feel present. I did not make myself want to get away. I didn't make myself want to be there. I didn't make myself want to be embarrassed. Us being together, I did learn to accept. I mean, I did accept my situation and I finally accepted being in this very painful situation with him. But it wasn't my doing, but I was there. And in the consciousness there is the idea, although the self is not controlling what is being done in the consciousness, there is the idea that the self does control.

[59:13]

That's an illusion. If I, if I, I'm not at all, I don't at all mind accepting the idea that the self doesn't control it. But my question is around, how does that arise? Or why isn't that happening? You know, but I just have to keep living with that question and you and friends. And People do sometimes say to me, they say, why did you say that? Why did you do that? Like, for example, why did you go to Zen Center? And at this point in my life, and it's been this way for a while, I do not know why I did that. I do not know. But I can tell stories. I can tell you a story about why I did. Like earlier, Sean asked me, and I told some stories. I do not know.

[60:16]

Again, why did you do that? Actually, I think the question is misplaced. I think it's better to say, how did that happen? Yeah, that's what I'm asking. How does that happen? How does it happen? And I do not know how it happens. However, I can tell stories. I can tell stories of how it happened. And by studying these stories, it isn't that we're going to find a story that actually tells how it happens, but by studying these stories, we will discover how it happens. It is a mystery, but we can understand this mystery. And the Buddha said that the actuality of dependent co-arising view of sentient beings' consciousness is inconceivable. Dependent co-arising is an inconceivable process. And the Buddha taught the 12 links of causation, but that's a conceivable version of it. That's a skillful means that the Buddha gave to us.

[61:18]

But the action is dependent on this, this. Depending on the arising of this, the arising of that. But how does that happen? The Buddha saw it, but it's inconceivable from the point of view of ordinary consciousness. By studying itself can become free of itself and wisdom sees it. And it's okay to tell stories in the process. Before I go, can I tell a funny story? Yes, you may. So you heard a very inspiring dream from Gayatri. When I first went to Zen Center, it was 1974, and very soon I had a dream where I was sitting on the threshold of the Zendo. I've never told this dream in public. I was sitting on the Zendo, and a dentist was looking into my mouth,

[62:24]

And the dentist said, you have way too many categories. Way too many categories. Wow, that's a group. Not cavities, categories. Right, right, right. Pun. I'm glad that you told that story and now it's in public and everybody... It's called Zen lore. That's a great one. Okay. You have way too many categories and I'm a bodhisattva and I'm not going to pull them out. Okay. I'm going to let you study them. That's what's been happening. Okay, Sonia. Yeah. Thank you, Linda. I had a couple questions. Some of them, I wanted to tell a story. When Sean asked you for a story, a story that you've told came to my mind that has been really important to me, that I love.

[63:35]

And I think it's the Portland trip, but I'm not positive. where you were sitting next to Suzuki Roshi. And was that when he taught you how to count people? Storti, futari, sanningoni, on and on? That was on the trip up to Portland. Oh. That was before the gallbladder attack. Okay. Okay. I thought about that story a lot and I, I really loved it. And I memorized, I don't know if I could still do it, but I memorized the counting. And then as you told the story, you thought he went to sleep and then he said story and you had to start through the whole trip counting people. Is that, did I? Yeah. And I felt like that was, I'm pretty sure he did go to sleep. But then he woke up to remind you. Yeah, I think in his sleep he could be aware that I'm stopped.

[64:38]

Yeah. Like that was how I have used that story is a way of inviting continuous practice or presence. Like just because somebody goes to sleep or they do go to sleep. But anyway, you just keep counting. You go around and around and around. So anyway, I love that story. And probably you can tell it a little better than I did. But it was when Sean asked the question, that's the story that came to my mind. And maybe it's like you're reminding us in different ways, but it's almost like a mantra that helps you be present to keep returning your mind. So I wanted to say, I don't know if it was the same thing, but that was the story. Well, I think it's another example. So Sean asks, are you there, Sean? This is for you.

[65:39]

So I'm flying in the airplane with Suzuki Roshi. And actually, I think maybe even before we took off, he said, He was going to teach me how to count people in Japanese. So he taught me how to count. One to ten. Because there's special counters for people. So he taught me. He taught me how to count. I mean, he said it to me. And he said, now you say it. So I said it back to him. Yeah. I don't know how many times we went back and forth before I could got the whole 10. And after I could do the whole 10, he said, now you continue. Right. So then I just continued and I did it out loud. And so I continued quietly counting. Stori, Tari, Sanin, Yonin, Gonin, Rokunin, Chichinin, Hakunin, Kunin, Toh.

[66:50]

and so on, over and over. And then we took off and he fell asleep. And then I fell asleep. But then when I stopped counting, he woke up and said, Storti. And I started counting again. And he fell asleep again. And then when he fell asleep, I stopped counting. And then when I stopped counting, he woke up and said, Storti. But then and I just continued, and he went to sleep. But then after he went to sleep, I just continued the rest of the way. I didn't stop counting when he went to sleep. But when we're asleep, sometimes, and there's some sound when we go to sleep, and we're used to the sound, if the sound wakes us up, So anyway, that was on the way up. And so he did teach me in a way to stay at my seat, my counting seat in that case.

[67:54]

Not by shaming me, but by reminding me. It was a really different situation. Now he was in a lot of pain and he wasn't going to sleep. Thank you, Sonia. I really love that story. I think it's a really important, beautiful story. And I just wanted to say, I have a few questions, but one of them, and I think you answered it, so I'm kind of checking myself, of why you thought it was important to change, you said to move from subject-object to the universe, meaning the universe. I think that's how you said it. The Mahayana version is, it's not just your sense organ meeting some sense object. I think what it says to me is that this point that you were making before is we don't really know.

[68:58]

It's so vast. Like I didn't even want to just commit it to two things meeting. We do know. Know the sense organ. Mm-hmm. But that's the tip of the iceberg, to say the least. Right. That's the coherent part of what the real meaning is. This little thing here, this little eye organ, really behind that whole eye organ is the whole universe. Right. So your sense organ is the whole universe in the form of your sense organ, but you can't see the whole universe. Right. which is coming as you can see the whole universe as your sense of. So it's like the coherent meeting the coherent, but really there's an incoherent background. It's also meeting. Right. Yes. Thank you. That's,

[69:59]

resonates for me. Thank you. And thank you for the story. Early Buddhism did not make that point. This is drawn out by the Lotus Sutra. And I'll say more about that next week. Another comment? Till then. Hello, Raph. Hello, Tillman. Yeah, I have another question on the story that you told back. So because I heard that you said, kind of told the story that Suzuki helped you be in your seat. And my mind sort of told the story Well, really, you helped you stay in your seat or that you were able to remember being in your seat during the flight.

[71:14]

I agree. I helped me. I helped me. And he helped me. Both. So both are because both seem to be valid stories about it. Really, the whole universe helped me be in my seat. Hmm. And the whole universe helped me realize that I was having trouble being in my seat. However, if he hadn't been sitting there, he'd been sitting there and really comfortable, I might not have felt so ashamed that I wasn't present for him. But when your teacher's sick and you're his attendant, you feel that it's your responsibility your teacher, right? And I was not completely there. But if he hadn't been there, if I had just been riding on the airplane by myself and daydreaming, I might not have felt like, well, it's my job to be in this seat.

[72:14]

But he helped me remember that even if your teacher isn't there, it's still your job to be. But him being there, especially him being there in pain, did make me really feel like, yes, I really have an essential responsibility to be here in this seat for him and everybody else. He helped me. His suffering helped me, first of all, realize that I wasn't really present and then to be present. But I helped me. I helped me, but I didn't control me. He helped me, but he didn't control me. He didn't make me be present. I didn't make myself be present, but he and I and everybody else came together to help me be present. And then I think I finally was present, but I don't know how that happened.

[73:19]

I remember a story I read when I first started practicing Zen in San Francisco. I read this book by Carlos Castaneda. Do you know Carlos Castaneda, Tillman? He wrote about a Mexican woman. So he's a Mexican teacher, this Mexican shaman named Don Juan. And his first assignment was to find his place You could say to find his seat. So Don Juan said, tonight, I want you to find your place. And so the student spent the whole night looking for his place. And he really had a hard time. He was looking, [...] looking. And he couldn't find his place, but he was aware he wasn't finding his place. Finally, I guess he just gave up and went to sleep someplace. The next morning, the teacher, Don Juan, said, did you find your place?

[74:27]

And he said, no, I didn't find it. And Don Juan said, well, where did you go to sleep? And Carlos showed him where he went to sleep. He said, this is your place. So I was aware when I didn't find my place and I felt embarrassed about it. But now looking back, I realize I did find my place. But I didn't even notice that I found my place. But I stopped running away from being with my teacher. And that's, you know, that's my happiness. My happiness is when I stop running away from Buddha. And before I run away from being Buddha, I help myself feel uncomfortable about that. And also Buddha helps me feel uncomfortable. And you help. You see me running away from Buddha, you help me also be embarrassed that I'm running away from Buddha. In other words, that I'm forgetting to be still.

[75:30]

When we run away, we forget stillness. We can walk away and remember stillness. So I pray that we walk that we walk and walk and walk back and forth on the threshold with all beings for the two worlds meet, that we walk and remember stillness. Thank you, everybody. May our intention equally extend to every being and place. And may the merit of our meeting beings realize the Buddha way. Beings are numberless. I vow to save them. Delusions and afflictions are inexhaustible.

[76:33]

I vow to cut through. Dharma gates are boundless. I vow to walk back and forth in front of them. The Buddha way is unsurpassable. I vow to become it.

[76:48]

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