Right? That's the way the Japanese is supposed to be pronounced. But the Sanskrit doesn't have this long A. It's not ga-te. It's ga-te. Ga-te. Pa-ra-ga-te. Pa-ra-sa-ma-ga-te. So it's kind of like short A. Long E. I think it has a mark on the E, doesn't it, sometimes? When it's transliterated? No? So would you say, Gatay, Gatay, Paragatay, Parasamgatay, Bodhisvaha? Huh? Well, we could try stopping then. But just tonight, could you try it? So just I'll do it once, you know. OK? Yes? Would that work if we do the ? I think that could just do, try to do on one beat. Try it.

[01:18]

OK? Maybe? Probably can do it. It's hard though, you know, to say gyate, gyate, and that's a strong habit, but since it's Sanskrit, let's try to do it that way. The other thing I wanted to mention was, I don't know, this is probably a good time to do it, is to mention a little bit about the shiso ceremony. You'll probably hear other instruction, but I just want to emphasize something about the spirit of questioning. And I think in some ways the most important thing when you ask your question is that it be really loud, especially in the spring. It's very important because some people ask questions and the Shisoms can probably hear it, but a lot of other people can't.

[02:30]

Like if you're sitting in the front rows and then the people probably sitting over by the screen can't hear you unless you really say it louder than you think is necessary. So I know it's hard, but it really would help. It puts more energy out there. The shuso can hear it and feel it, and we all can hear it. The shuso usually... is talking, is in the middle of the room, and her voice is sort of towards the people. But if you're talking, if you've got people behind you and you're talking not very loud, they probably can't hear you. And some people talk so quietly that the people in the front can't hear. So please try to ask your questions loudly. Maybe you could the onerous task of occasionally, if necessary, saying, please speak louder. The other thing is, as a guideline for the kind of question you ask, please ask a question that has to do with practice rather than theory.

[03:42]

Of course, it's a practice that puts a theory into practice. But try to ask questions about practice. And also, even about practice, try to ask questions that are not too esoteric so that the other people in the audience don't know what you're talking about. And then also that it has something to do with your practice, or yours and the she-so's. That's even better. So those guidelines, practical or practical. Now, asking a question about Bodhidharma, you could try to relate the Bodhidharma koan, which would be raised, you know, to your practice or to our practice, it's okay to bring imagery and tradition out of your practice question. But I think it's good if it's practice-oriented and something that you're actually concerned about and not too esoteric.

[04:49]

Okay? Thanks. sort of left over, in some sense left over from last time. Towards the end, Catherine said, could you give an example? I was talking about how somebody said, I said, what's the practice? And he said, the practice is to notice if there's any grasping or clinging in the mind. So, many of the ancient Zen masters have recommended that you eliminate conceptual grasping, that you eliminate grasping of the mind. But as I mentioned, and as you've noticed, there still is, even though this instruction has been given, we still have some strong tendency to grasp and seek. Right?

[05:52]

Some tendency left over, even after you've been bludgeoned with this instruction. for a long time. So this person was noticing how that this thing's going on. And then he also mentioned something about he wanted to try to control that tendency to protect people so it doesn't harm people. And again, what I mentioned to you was rather than try to control it, which is more of the same, because any kind of control, in order to try to control something, you have to grasp some concept of what you're trying to control. You're basically just making it worse. Rather than try to control, you're grasping and seeking in order to protect. A more traditional method is to confess your continuing tendency to grasp and seek. Confessing your shortcomings in practice protects beings.

[06:56]

To acknowledge your weaknesses in your practice protects beings. But to try to stop the weaknesses sometimes makes them much worse. And then Catherine said, could you give an example? This isn't exactly an example. It's actually, I think, kind of a joke. But you can see that it's actually kind of... It's about a psychiatrist who's visited by a person, and I think the person presenting problem was, I think they had like a tick, you know, like a, you know, like kind of a twitch, a twitch. And so the person says, get rid of this, and the psychiatrist was a hypnotist also, so he put the person in hypnotic trance. and made the post-hypnotic suggestion that the tick has been released. So then he came out of the trance, and he said to the person, well, how are you doing? He said, well, the tick's gone. Thanks.

[08:01]

And then he said, what was that? I don't know. would you make that go away? So they put him in a trance and said, this, this, this, you know, uncontrolled release. So, so when he came out, he said, how are you doing? He said, fine. Yeah, it's gone. Thank you very much. These forces, you know, they're there for causes and conditions, and if you try to disrupt them by imposing more force on them, there's a force there, you know, you have to honor it. And if you just fight it, there's more force. Whereas if you admit it, admitting that you have a problem is not a very aggressive thing to do.

[09:08]

I mean, especially if you just say, well, I got this problem, I got a kick. You know, I got a... I got this problem, I got that problem, I got this bad habit. Just admitting them and admitting them in a kind, gentle way and saying enough to get the message across and stopping there is actually good and enough. And you're paying attention to your meeting it, you're honoring it, you're not indulging in it. This is more the approach than trying to control yourself out of these bad habits. It could. It could do that. And that's why people think that they shouldn't take that chance. Because if they don't, they might not do something that would be helpful. So just in case, I'll just try to control myself, just in case anybody would accuse me of not doing something helpful.

[10:10]

So at least I'm trying to control myself. I mean, I'm not controlling myself, but you know I'm trying to talk to, you know. So you can't fault me for being like lazy because I'm, you know, obsessional, aren't I? But, you know, addressing the problem and honoring it brings all kinds of possibilities there so here's an actual story which I think is probably a true story which I told before and it's probably in that book some of you it's a story about Milton Erickson is that in the book? so here's a guy who's got this fantasy he's imagining himself to be Jesus Christ right and he's like totally fixated on this imagination that he's got so what he needs of course is help to imagination right It's okay to think you're Jesus Christ or the Blessed Virgin, but to rigidly hold that is kind of a problem.

[11:13]

And this guy was rigidly holding it, and anybody who wouldn't honor his fantasy, his imagination of himself as Jesus, he wouldn't talk to, wouldn't relate to. So, of course, he had trouble getting along with people, so he was institutionalized. around this attachment to his imagination. And all of us have imaginations. And to a great extent, the reason why we're not hospitalized is in direct proportion to how little we grasp our imagination. The more we grasp our imagination, the closer we're getting to the hospital or whatever. So Milton Erickson met this guy, and he didn't join the guy's fixation and say, I'm glad to meet you, Jesus. He said, I understand you're a carpenter. In other words, he related to the imagination, but in a way that there was relaxation around it.

[12:21]

The guy wanted to get out of that trap, but he needed somebody to show him how to relax around it. So Milton Erickson came up to it, didn't reject it, and didn't affirm it. Just said, I understand you're a carpenter, which doesn't reject or affirm that he's Jesus, but it, you know, see, really? There's some leverage. Right. There's a little leverage, right. So then Milton Erickson says, well, would you build me some bookcases? So the guy gets into, like, building bookcases, which goes along with his fantasy, but also makes him an ordinary person. Gives him... embarrass him among the people who said, you know, if you don't recognize this, you know, I'm not going to relate to you. And yet at the same time it lets him be like the rest of us. So he got out. So there's a way to get out of our stuff if we can relax around this. That is doing something. But it's not tricky. Whereas the other way, which is not so tricky, it's just lockstep continued imprisonment, is to fight it.

[13:28]

You say, well, I've got bad habits, but at least I'm fighting them. So you can't fault me, right? I mean, I'm totally against them. I'm taking all kinds of medication, and I'm doing all these programs and stuff like that, and I hate them and stuff like that. So, obviously, I'm not just indulging in them. Well, you are, but it doesn't look like it. So it's the danger of relaxing is that someone might say you're being too irresponsible. You don't... Yeah, the relaxation can go too far and you can commit unfortunate behaviors while still holding the thing but loosening up a little bit. You can loosen up around some back and still act on them even though you're loosening up a little. You're still holding them but you're a little looser. If you let go of them entirely they would have no function. They wouldn't push you around at all.

[14:32]

They would, like, just blossom into compassion. But to hold them a little and loosen up, just like some depressed people when they see suicide, when they're not totally down and they get some energy back, then they plan their... Sometimes when they're really depressed, they don't have the energy to even figure out how to get out to the bridge. So it is dangerous. The other way, I would say, in some ways keeps it under control because, in fact, the establishment is this illness. So you keep an illness going and you know that it's, you know. Of course, sometimes those lead to horrendous things too. But if you're already in that sometimes. Anyway, this way of acknowledging it and giving it space leads to its end. The other way is there's no end to it. Both ways are dangerous, but one way goes towards freedom.

[15:34]

Both ways are dangerous, but one way, on top of the illness you have, on top of the illness, you have change, maybe, or the danger of change. So that's why it's nice to have some help to make that step. You don't think you need much help to continue your illness because you don't think people are helping you anyway. And that leads to, well, I don't want to talk too much about this, because it's kind of oxymoron to talk about it too much, but I wanted to talk about this self-enjoyment samadhi. Those are the Chinese characters for it up there. Ji Ji Yu Zang Mai. And I was bringing it up on this particular occasion. Two people talked to me. One person said to me, what's it like to give a class, he said. And I thought, well, actually it's It's like receiving a class. That's what classes are like for me.

[16:36]

It's like I come here and I receive a class. That's why I have a good time. Because I come here, the class comes. I mean, I come here, you come, I come here, the class comes. The event happens. We show up and everything shows up. That's what the class is like for me. Is that they're gifts. They're given. And the other thing was David brought up towards the end of the last class. So these characters mean this character means self. This means to receive. And this means to employ or function or work. Say, I think, convey and transmit. And so one way to see this is that this is about receiving and . And if the receiving and acting are imagined as separate, I would say that that's painful.

[17:55]

And when the receiving and acting are seen along with that separation is that there's a self which received and then a self which acts. So first of all, just take away the self and look at the core there of those two characters receiving and functioning or reception. Or you could also say receiving agency. When they're separate, there's a problem. When they're joined, it's enjoyable. And in fact, that's actually, you know, it's a different kind of, this is an imagination, but it's a different kind of imagination. Usually we think we receive something and then convey it, or we get permission to do something and then we do it. But in this case, receiving the simultaneous.

[19:01]

In terms of teaching, receiving a teaching and conveying it isn't you can receive it and then convey it. In receiving it, it's conveyed. perceiving it and conveying it this is not a happy situation this is a heavy situation this is a situation which disturbs our body mind tires us out splits us up wounds us because it is another example of this and that This is function. This is receiving my life. This is doing my life. That way of breaking things apart there wounds the whole process, the healthy process, the healed process of receiving and conveying, receiving, employing, receiving function. And again, the Chinese compound of these two characters means together means enjoyment or comfort.

[20:12]

So I can say to you, although they don't split in the dictionary, they don't split the words, point out to you that when these aren't together as a compound, it means painful. But I'm telling you that. The dictionaries don't usually do that. They only have a word over here and a word over there and tell you, mention to you, the fact these two words are separate is painful. But when they put it together, they mean comfort. It's kind of a hint that when they're separate, they mean discomfort. So when receiving life and functioning of life are separate, it's discomfort. And when they're one thing, it's enjoyable. So the key is that they be joint. Now, it turns out that, again, when this and that are not seen as this and that, but seen as one thing, that's comfort. And this and that goes with the self and other.

[21:15]

So another way to look at this is, when the received self this kind of self, a received self, or a self-receiving. The received self, or the process of receiving the self, is immediately the self-functioning. the received and the self functioning. So the samadhi is the awareness of receiving the self and seeing it function. Or, another way to put it is, it's the witnessing and understanding of the gift of the self and not functioning on the basis of that given self. Not functioning on the basis of the self, doing things, but watching the given self act. So the samadhi is to watch the self that's given act. So watch the self that's given function.

[22:18]

Watch the self that's . And see if there can be a relaxing around the this and that of receiving an act or witnessing an act. Usually we think seeing and doing are two different things. Yes? When we speak, it's like one after another? How so? Yeah, when you say receiving and... One comes first and then one comes next. But if you say receiving function... then there's not before and after because receiving function is one thing. Another way to put it is you receive your employment.

[23:22]

The self receives its employment. Another way to put it is the self receives its license to act. Various ways to put it. But the... I don't want you to try to think that way. I just wanted to open that up to you as what this samadhi is about. Yeah. Oh, no, not that. Creative maneuver. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, right, it's energy. The self is one of the manifestations of energy.

[24:24]

Energy can manifest in a lot of ways, and one of the ways it can manifest is as a self. But if we understand, actually if we could witness energy kind of like cooling down in the form of self, then you can see that there's no self. First there's energy, and then there's the condition of self. First there's energy in certain conditions, and then there's a self. But first there's the coming of energy. then there's a self. So you see the energy and then there's a self. So you see the self is actually given rather than the self's already there. So the self, kind of like matter, is cooled off energy. So there's a kind of material quality to the self. It's a kind of set of some identifiable set of... of, you know, what do you call it, dispositions.

[25:32]

But they're given. But they're given. Hmm? Well, in some sense, the self is, to some extent, it's trapped energy. It's not that we trap it. It's energy trapped. But when there's a witnessing of the coming of the energy... the entrapment is released, because actually the energy comes, but that doesn't end the story. This energy that comes into itself, it functions. And to see that coming of it and the functioning of it is comfortable. And to split them apart is, you know, disrupts this flow of this gift, disturbs the flow of the gift. And part of the training of the imagination is to train the imagination to watch things come with no grasping or seeking.

[26:39]

So we have this imagination and it makes things come. the imagination makes things and then it makes things come. But it also imagines that it wants things to go this way or that way. So it doesn't see exactly the consequences of its own functioning. So if we can try to, if we can encourage the imagination to envision non-seeking, then we can see how the imagination works with everything, works with what's happening, which isn't yet things, to make things come. And then there's a self. So one of Eleanor's poems is, in the wishless well, everything that's present is a gift.

[27:49]

Or is it everything that's present? No, it's everything that's present is a gift. Or is seen as a gift? Is a gift. But I, you know, you could add, everything that's present actually is a gift. All gifts are present. But also, I think I could add in, in the wishless well, everything that's present is seen as a gift. Right? When the imagination is wishless, when you imagine being wishless, then what comes is a gift. So we have to find, this is the art of using our imagination in a way that we feel comfortable. And the way of using the imagination that we feel comfortable is to use the imagination to imagine not getting involved in what's happening, not clinging to it, not seeking something else.

[28:59]

Imagine being that way. In other words, imagine letting go of your imagination. But how are you going to make that interesting enough to do it more than once? Yes. I didn't say you are watching the receiving in the self you did so what you said huh watching yeah but I didn't say I didn't say you watch it I said witnessing this you witnessing it but when but usually when people hear witnessing this they think I witness it or you witness it so I witness the coming of things and That is dualistic. So that would be dualistic. But it isn't necessarily dualistic. That can just be witnessing of things... Wrong.

[30:08]

It's very rare, I would say, that there's witnessing without the idea that someone's witnessing. But there's no evidence that in witnessing it's a self that's witnessing. The process of witnessing is not the self. The process of witnessing is not the self. And almost none of you probably think that witnessing is the self. Probably none of you think that, because you don't think your self goes away when there's no witnessing. You think the self owns all the equipment, including the witnessing. So you think if there's witnessing, the self does it, but the witnessing is not the self. The witnessing is not even a capacity of the self. The self owns the witnessing. Now, for most people, until they really see through, this self thing, even if there is witnessing, without thinking that the self is witnessing, there still is the idea that there's a self.

[31:18]

So for most people, even in a case where there's witnessing and where there isn't the idea that the self is doing it, still they have the idea that there's a self around someplace, an independently existing self. They haven't gotten rid of that deep conception. There still is that attitude that there's a self Fine. And that would not be this samadhi. This samadhi is proposing that there is an awareness which is not like the one you're saying. That there is a Buddha awareness. All the Buddhas have this All these Buddhas have this self-enjoyment awareness. And the self-enjoyment awareness, it's not the self that's witnessing, it is the awareness of the self being given. It's the awareness of the self coming to be. It's not the awareness of the self, the self coming to be.

[32:23]

It's like It's not even like there's no self. We're not even like, okay, there's no self. It's like there's this coming to be of the self. There's the witnessing of the dependent core rising of the self. There's such an awareness. And that Buddhas, all Buddhas have this awareness. of the self coming to be, or the reception of the self. They all have that awareness. And they not only have that awareness, but they see how the self comes to be, and as soon as it comes to be, it functions. There's a witnessing or an awareness of the self coming to be. There's a witnessing or awareness of the dependent co-arising of the self. And there's simultaneously a witnessing of that given self, that dependently co-origin self, functioning. And the functioning is the functioning of this samadhi. So, how does it function?

[33:26]

Do you remember how it functions, Max? Well, that's already simultaneous with it. It functions. How does it function, ladies and gentlemen? It turns the unsurpassable Dharma wheel. The entire sky and the entire earth are enlightened. That's how it functions. That's the functioning of this awareness. That's what that little thing's about. It's telling you about what happens in that awareness. where beings are actually saved in that awareness. That's the function of that self. So when you see the dependent core rising... Actually, I take it back. In the witnessing of the dependent core rising, in the awareness of the dependent core rising of the self, there is a witnessing of how this self, this dependently core risen self, functions. But the character can also be an adverb.

[34:38]

So would that be like, would you say automatically? Right. Yeah. Automatically receiving and employing. Or naturally receiving and employing. Well, how does it relate? Well, I don't know. How does it relate? But that's fine with me to say naturally or automatically. It's the awareness that this is automatic, that all things are like this. But this doesn't mean the self is eliminated necessarily. If the self is there, it's a self that's having a good time. But remember, Buddha can see that there isn't a self and that there is a self at the same time. Yeah? So there's no self-witnessing? In this samadhi, there's not a self-witnessing. But there's objects. But there is self-witnessing. There's not a self-witnessing, but there's self-witnessing.

[35:47]

There's witnessinging. There's not self-witnessing, but there's self-awareness. There's awareness of a self. But the self that we're aware of is a self that we see being given in the process of all things coming forth and realizing themselves. So one way to say it is when all things come forward and realize the self. Another way to say it is when all things come forward and realize themselves. Those are both true. And there is an awareness or a samadhi of all things coming forward and taking care of themselves. Yeah. Yeah. What the witnessing is, is the objects create the subject.

[36:49]

To witness an object create the subject? To witness that and also subject creates the object? Yeah, something a little bit more. So one thing is objects create subjects. The other is subjects create objects. In other words, they're interdependent. And that is that in the coming forth of the subject being created, it realizes itself. it realizes itself. And also in the coming forth of the conditions for the object, one of them being the subject, It's not the only condition for the object, and the object's not the only condition for the subject. But anyway, in things coming forth, things are realized themselves. So the interdependence is nice news, I think, but this thing about things coming forth and realizing themselves is, in some sense, even better than realizing that things are realized.

[38:02]

in their dependent core arising. That they're, this is really how they are. They realize their ultimate nature. The realization is, the realization you can say is seeing dependent core arising but maybe it's better to say the realization, what is realized is dependent core arising. And that is also a dependent co-arising. So realization is also something that comes forth and takes care of itself. Okay? Yes? Yes. Yes. Which part?

[39:09]

The Yavolt? You missed the Yavolt part? Okay. No, but it's true. The pentacle rising is a pentacle rising, I suppose. No, what I said was, you said something like seeing the pentacle rising is something or other, I thought. And I said, I think better just to say realizing the core rising, rather than seeing it. Like, I see the dependent core rising is realizing the truth. And I said, so realizing dependent core rising and realizing dependent core rising is another dependent core rising. Well, in other words, the conditions for not realizing dependent core arising, when you don't understand dependent core arising, that's a dependent core arising.

[40:13]

There's various causes and conditions come forward, and the gift is somebody who doesn't understand dependent core arising. Thanks a lot. I mean, I really needed that, you know. I really needed not to understand Buddhist teaching. So the fact that people, the fact that Buddhists do not understand Buddhism is a dependent core arising. Not all, the fact that some Buddhists don't understand Buddhism is a dependent core arising. If you have Buddhist teaching, then you have a person who doesn't believe Buddhist teachings, and then you have somebody who, you have dependent core arising of not understanding Buddhist teaching. If somebody else who believes Buddha's teaching and opens to it and has no grasping or clinging, then you have the conditions for the dependent core rising of somebody who understands dependent core rising. But understanding and not understanding are both dependent core rising because there's nothing that's not a dependent core rising, including good old emptiness. Everything is a dependent core rising.

[41:16]

All phenomena depend on the core rise. Delusion co-arises, enlightenment dependent co-arises. Nothing's cut off from the rest of the stuff. Everything depends on everything. But there's different patterns, and one pattern's called birth and death, and another pattern's called no birth, no death. And they depend on each other. They depend on the co-arise. It's kind of... all working together this way. And I don't know who was first, was it Ben or Owl? Did you see? Go ahead. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Right, so why we say things like uncreated, unconditioned, unconstructed.

[42:40]

Let's see, so gee whiz, this is kind of a big topic. Maybe I can just take a little piece of it. For example, nirvana is not being born and not dying. In nirvana, things aren't born and things don't die. It's called the birthless and the deathless. But the realization of nirvana dependently co-arises. So sometimes people say nirvana is, the word that they use is asamskrita for it, which means unmade. Or you could say unfabricated. Samskrita. Samskrita means sort of like put together. Asamskrita, not put together. Nirvana is not put together. But the realization of it independently co-arises.

[43:45]

The reality of it? Well, the reality of it is that it's not really a thing. It is just that nirvana is the no birth and no death. It's a realm where the dualities which set up birth and death aren't kicking in. There's no grasping of the process by which birth and death is conjured up. Now, if you make that a phenomena, then that dependently co-arises. things don't arise and cease, that's not made. That's not constructed. See? No birth and no death is not constructed. The realization, however, is a dependent co-arising, because realization means that it applies to the human. And it can be a phenomenal expression of birthlessness and deathlessness, which is called the Buddhist path. Sometimes you call it the path to nirvana, but you can also call it the path of nirvana.

[44:55]

It's the expression of birthlessness and deathlessness. The path which realizes nirvana is also the path which expresses nirvana. But it expresses nirvana in the world of birth and death. So nirvana is unconstructed, nirvana is unmade, but nirvana is not what? Yeah, that's it. It's just instructed. That should help you understand nirvana. Yes? A good primer. The realization is you become dependent co-arising whose essence is compassion.

[46:06]

That's the realization. You always were, you always have been dependent co-arising. It's just you finally get with the program. And the essence of this program that you're building is compassion. Yeah, you're completely aligned with it. You're not fooling around anymore. You're just a dependent co-arising that you've always been. But, you know, you're not anymore. Like, well, I'm a dependent co-arising and I can, but I can grasp it, I think, and I can wish for a different one. And I can, yeah, well, no, and I can possess it. There can be, there can be direct perception of our dependently co-arisen but that, huh? I'm not done. I'm not done.

[47:23]

But that direct perception is innocent of conception. There's no conceptual mediation. So there's no way to grasp This perception doesn't grasp. It just knows without seeking, which is nirvana. So understanding dependent core rising is nirvana, or opens the door to nirvana. Because dependent core rising, there's no seeking or grasping. No seeking means there's no birth. No grasping means there's no death. Is it confirmation? Sure, it definitely is. Before that, you have some faith in the Buddha's teaching. You all have a lot of faith in Buddha's teaching. You believe in interdependence. But you also don't. Because it looks like it's not interdependent. I mean, it looks like only some people are helping you.

[48:26]

That's what it looks like. In fact, it looks like some people are downright neutral about you. Looks like some people are downright roasting you at the Vinium. But, you know, so it's hard for us to... But we believe that really all these people who are roasting us are really helping us. We believe that, right? Well, I believe that you're helping me. I know you're my best friend, really. This challenge is from my practice. I know what I know. And then sometimes there's confirmation. Sometimes I go, whoa, I get it. Hallelujah. I know, I understand, you are. Actually, you have been helping me all this time by being this way to me. Thank you so much. This is like confirmation. You understand you depend completely on this person who you thought that was the one person you didn't need. You still need all the people you thought were helping you, but now this last piece falls into place of the one person you thought, no, this cannot, this is not helpful.

[49:29]

This is not realizing me. This Dharma coming forward is not realizing itself or me. This Dharma is not taking care of itself. So, but you believe that's true, right? We all believe that's true. Well, do you? Some of you somewhat believe this, anyway. Some of you say, I don't know if I believe this. Anyway, you've heard about this, the Pentecostal stuff, right? So that's our faith is, I believe in... And then when you have direct perception of it, your faith is confirmed. And you are confirmed, too. you are realized. I mean, you realize what realization means. Yeah. I'm scared of that kind of talk. I think, oh, sounds like evangelists. Well, anything else you want to bring up before we go?

[50:36]

No? About emptiness being a phenomenon. Yeah, so a lot of people do. Non-conceptual states are empty, and so also conceptual states are empty. Well, realizing, no. The realization, in order to, you can't realize by direct perception

[51:42]

conceptually, because perception is not mediated by conception. So direct perception of nirvana is not conceptual mediation. But emptiness is not a conception or a perception. It's a different kind of phenomena than a perception or a conception. It's the pinnacle of rising. Right, right, right. Right, right, right.

[52:45]

That's right. Right. This phenomena is innocent of the conception which precipitates it into a phenomena. It is free of conception. But conception must be involved in its phenomenon. So emptiness is, that's this big, that's the big karaka, right? Karaka 18, chapter 24. Emptiness is dependent co-arising, is conventional designation, the middle way. What about that?

[53:50]

You're going back and forth. Well, I'm in my Jamaica right now. Don't get stuck in either one of those schools. Anything else before we go to bed? I mean, before Helen tries to go to sleep? Is that enough for tonight? May our intention be to leave and trade every meaning and place Can we chant the English tomorrow?

[55:25]

English Heart Sutra? Okay, Dawn? All right? Thanks.

[55:30]

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