One time, I don't remember exactly... I seem to remember where it happened, but one time I was talking... She was talking to me. It seemed like I was bringing some message to him or something about somebody or something. I think it was in his, like... That room that's right at the end of the hall there at the city center that has the calligraphy over the doorway. It's between his doksan room and their bathroom and kitchen. I think that was the room, and it was kind of dark, I remember. And in response to something, he said, I'm pretty sure he said, we, I think he said, we Japanese abhor sex. And... I think it was in the context of him saying how he, as a person from another culture, was related to something that I brought up with him or something.

[01:14]

But it struck me, of course, the word abhor. Some of us might abhor sex, but we don't necessarily say American culture in general abhors sex. And I don't know if I ever heard him use that word before, and I don't know how carefully he chose it. But somehow I feel, the way, if I think of the look on his face, I feel that it well matched the meaning of abhor, especially the root meaning of abhor is to shrink or to shudder from. That kind of feeling. I think, I somehow feel that a lot of Japanese do feel that way. Like, when you read those poems from the, you know, the kind of, the age of the aristocracy, you know, like the Fujiwara period, all these poems about these people, almost all, a lot of the poems are about sex and, sex and, well, sex and sex.

[02:25]

And usually they're fainting in relationship to it or something. And they seem to have a similar relationship to cherry blossoms. And springtime, you know, it's kind of like, oh, it's like the whole nation just swoons at spring, you know, just, oh, cherry blossoms, oh. ah, you know, spring, life, fertility. It's like, give me a break, and we love it. And they look at those cherry blossoms, and they also are trained to have a sensibility. Like, they look at them, and they say, oh, they're so beautiful, and they're going to fall. You know, the sense of impermanence around the flowers and around sexuality and the pain of it all, the pain of the impermanence of what is born. And sex being, as they call it, the red thread that runs through all these other

[03:35]

sensual images of springtime, and then there's this one red element, that very strong element of sexuality mixed in. So anyway, he said, we abhor it. So I share that with you now. So there's a tendency to shudder. He also said one time, And I think he said this other thing in public. This is a private thing he said to me about being abhorring it. I never heard him say it in public. I guess he knew that that wouldn't be popular in San Francisco. But anyway, in public I think he said that Our way, and again, I don't know if that was Japanese way or Zen way or Buddhist way or his way or what, but he says our way is more like to be formal with what we're familiar with and be informal with what we're unfamiliar with.

[04:54]

I think he said something like that. It might have been formal with what we're intimate with, informal with strangers. And so part of what I wanted to address today was this aspect as to build, sort of to build a context or a container for the discussion of this topic, which is Like yesterday, I felt like I was sitting on top of a volcano. Or then I thought, well, maybe I'm not on top of the volcano, maybe I'm down inside of it. And we're all going to be like shot out of it pretty soon, all over the place. Anyway, it's just a lot of energy in the valley now. Right? It's springtime, we're talking about sex, gender,

[05:59]

things being born, this kind of upwelling spirit. So it's, I want to like build a container for this, all this energy with you, not me all by myself. Because it's not that kind of container. It's not a personal container. It's a container for otherness. It's a container to deal with this thing about other and this deal about birth. And when he said this thing about formal with intimates and informal with others, when he said that, I thought, oh, that's unusual. And I also thought, I felt like he knew that he was saying something surprising to Americans.

[07:04]

We usually think, oh, you're informal with who you're close to, you know. Like when you change your baby's diapers, you're informal. You don't say, excuse me, sir, may I change your diapers? Would it be all right if I touched you? It's sort of informal with our own offspring or with our parents. I think children are informal with their parents a lot of times, and they have to be taught formality. But in a lot of ways, you know, I think parents are formal with their children. There's a lot of form. But in particular... to have a sexual relationship in the sense of getting physically intimate, formality, I think, is helpful. But also I feel like even if we're, well, again, I do feel that when we practice Zen together, we get physically intimate with each other in a lot of ways.

[08:18]

For example, by the end of practice period, I think many of you could recognize many of your comrades by their feet. If you just saw somebody's feet, you could recognize them because you've been looking at them. You've been watching them when they serve you. You've been watching them during kinheen. You could even recognize some people by the soles of their feet because you see them. We actually are looking at each other's bodies a lot. You can tell people by, even some people, you can tell by the way they sound when they move on the engawa. You could tell people by their hands. You could tell people by their ordeoki style. We know each other quite intimately, actually, physically, by the end of the practice period. And there's a container for this study, a formal container, So all kinds of intimacy, I think, need the help of ritual, ceremony, human, anyway, ritual, ceremony, thymac, containment and support.

[09:40]

And this is like physical formality and also verbal formality. Verbal expressions of intention, of desires, of permission, of commitment. And then making agreements, giving our word, and also having these verbal and physical gestures and rituals witnessed by the other, and even from people who are just witnesses to the committed relationship. And there's this book here which I think you've seen, it's Ethical Principles and Procedures for Grievance and Reconciliation.

[10:59]

And in here there's a discussing the precept of not misusing sexuality. There is, you know, formal suggestions here about the relationship between about the relationship we have with each other, the relationship that peers have with each other at Zen Center, and the relationships that non-peers have with each other. And so, reading this document, one could say whether one agreed with this or not in a relationship. Coming into Zen Center, one could read this and say, I agree with what's said here, or I do not agree with certain parts.

[12:01]

But it would be, I would think, promote working on this precept around sexuality to look at this, this formal statement, and see how you feel and if you have some problem with it, to discuss it. In that way, you would be building a container to practice this precept. The other precepts also, I think, would be good to look at, of course, and if you have some problem, to discuss it. But this one especially. because this topic is so complex. And the word complex, by the way, means knot. Not n-o-t, but k-n-o-t. It means a knot or a tangle. And again, as I mentioned yesterday, the Chinese character for sexual intercourse is this character about the mind of birth

[13:12]

connected with entwinement, engagement, intertanglement. So when we eat, we get intertangled with our food and it becomes us and also some parts of it pass through us. But, you know, the level at which other people get entangled with us when we eat is not as great as in sexual relationships or, again, in any kind of intimate relationship, whether we say it's sexual or not. But once again, I do feel that Zen practice is about Did you lose hearing me? No? Once again, I think Zen practice is about how we can be physically intimate. I think it's about how we can be physically intimate with all beings.

[14:20]

Because I think that in reality we are physically intimate with all beings. All beings come forward and realize me. All beings come forward and realize you, physically, psychologically, socially, consciously. So realizing this intimacy is realizing the Dharma. So I don't want to force this issue, but I just want to present a certain perspective, and that is whenever, not whenever, but when two people meet, their genders meet.

[15:33]

When two males meet, certainly adult males, they often notice that They often remember, on some level, I'm a male, and that's a male. They notice that. This is like something they're aware of. And it's a big factor. Well, it shouldn't be a big factor. It's a factor in what happens. When two females meet, they are often aware. I'm a female meeting a female. When a male meets a female, they're often aware. I'm a male, that's a female. Similarly, the female. I'm a female, that's a male. They're aware of this. Whether conscious or not, somebody knows what's going on here. And it's a big factor in what happens. Sometimes this happens, sometimes that happens, but it's a factor. And in some cases, what happens is what we call genital sexual intercourse.

[16:42]

And sometimes what happens is called just an ordinary verbal conversation. But then sometimes after there's what we call sexual intercourse, there is actually somehow the organisms may decide in some level, there seems to be a decision that they aren't doing that anymore. And some people who have been intimate with somebody else in that way are not that way anymore, and they are quite aware of a lot happening around not being involved with certain people. And it's a big issue that you're not involved with some people. There's a lot of energy around not being involved with them. But that also can be intimacy.

[17:46]

And actually, in some cases, to get involved with people in certain ways goes against intimacy. Because to get involved in certain ways does not pay attention to what the person is saying to you. or does not pay attention to who the person is. So this Zen Center policy thing here says, for example, they think that an adult at Zen Center should not be sexually involved with a minor. It says a minor. And I guess a minor means somebody under 18. let's say, doesn't say, doesn't go so far as to suggest that an adult at Zen Center should not get involved with a baby or, you know, a little child. Doesn't go that far. But of course it would suggest that too, I think.

[18:53]

Of course it suggests that, yeah. The reason for that is not that you shouldn't be intimate with children, It's just that you shouldn't be intimate with children in certain ways. That's what this policy is saying. And you should be intimate with children, yes, but not in those ways. Those ways wouldn't be intimate, I would say. I would say that would not be intimacy. I don't think intimacy goes with abuse. I think if you're really sensitive to someone and benevolent towards someone, that promotes intimacy and that protects against abuse. I think when you really feel benevolent towards a child, that benevolence understands that certain ways of relating to this child will be very disturbing.

[19:57]

even though a child may seem to be interested in relating those ways. But if an adult picks up on relating to them in those ways, we find that the child later has lots of difficulty trying to understand how to relate to people. key factor in benevolence, a key factor in intimacy, is non-attachment, is non-seeking. So, again, I told you before, Suzuki Roshi said to me, talking to me, he said, when you get married, a long time from now,

[21:13]

And as I remember, it was four and a half years after he said that, that I got married. When you get married a long time from now, it won't matter whether you do or not. And I thought of what Jane said. And I thought she was talking about nonviolence. She said it wasn't really about nonviolent training. But anyway, free to and free not to. Free to, free not to, but means non-attachment to me. That you can become involved or not. And in that space of either way, the proper response comes forth. I'm wondering now about the formality, yeah, the formality necessary for an intimate relationship.

[22:58]

And when I wonder about it, then a part of me a part of me raises, I mean, a part of me, the thought comes up, you don't need formality to have an intimate relationship. There's some rebellion against this idea someplace. So I think that maybe that's a good place to open up to you around is the necessity or meaning of having formality in order to promote intimacy. Is it necessary? Do you have some

[24:11]

Or is there anything else you want to bring up? I think that's enough for me to start, maybe. Because that's what I want to work on, first of all, is the necessity of a form, of recognizing mutually on a form for our relationships. Yes? There comes one example in my mind about... So I was raised up in being on the eating table and talking. And in working with children, a lot of children have this experience. They meet their parents at the eating table and we talk. And when...

[25:14]

Be taught. Talking. Talking at the table, yes. Exchanging, eating, exchanging. Yes. And when I have been, I had the chance to visit Kobun Shinuroshi with his three little children. And I was so totally buff to see these children coming at the table and immediately being silent and immediately just eating. So I really... chewing and eating and chewing and eating and being totally calm and I also calmed down and just didn't talk so much and was totally intimate actually to just eat there so it was interesting it was actually a form of celebration of a relationship could everybody hear that? And I think I would share that too, that in the meals that we have here, these formal meals where we don't chat with each other while we're eating, I feel a great intimacy myself with the people.

[26:31]

Which includes, I think, for me, that a feeling of noticing when there isn't intimacy. The form helps me notice when there isn't intimacy. And when there isn't intimacy is when I think other. And sometimes in these meals I sometimes think, other, you know, that somebody other than me who is doing such and such. But the form helps me become aware of that, that a strain, you know, my delusion that it's other. It surfaces that illusion and helps me get over it. This is awkward, huh?

[27:43]

This is awkward. But it's kind of formal. It's kind of like walking up. You can sort of think of this as kind of like walking up to ask the big question. You said this whole idea of free to, free not to. I think, I feel anyway that most people's experience with sexual relationships is pretty far away from this idea of free to, free not to. And that part of the confusion maybe arises around really not feeling free not to. You know, and really sort of very strong desires. Yes. Not being sure sort of how to integrate this presence of very strong desires with sort of this general don't be attached. Right, thank you. Right, so... around sexuality, the feeling of free to, free not to maybe is hard to understand, but it may be easy to understand not free to and not free not to.

[28:47]

That's easy to understand, right? In other words, excuse me for saying so, but violence is easy to understand. If I say nonviolence is free to or free not to, then in some sense this realm of not free to and not free not to is kind of violent. It kind of violates our relationship. But free to have sex, sexual relationship with you, or free to have any kind of relationship with you, between you and me, doesn't mean I can do whatever I want with you. It more means that I feel like anything would be possible between us. It would be possible. I would feel a freedom in not having a sexual relationship with you, and I could feel free in having a sexual relationship with you. But in other words, that's just one example of kind of intimacy, what we call sexual. But do I actually feel free to have an intimate relationship with you or not?

[29:52]

And now that I say it, actually, I don't feel free not to. I just feel, because I feel I actually need to have an intimate relationship with you, but I feel free not to have a particular type of intimacy with you. I feel free to not work with you in the kitchen or to work with you in the kitchen. That spirit of free to do this with you and free to not do that with you is, I think, the spirit in which I can really meet you. But usually we don't feel that way, I agree. And around certain kinds of sexual issues, we start to feel very much not that way. So that's a real test to this spirit of non-attachment. But I feel like, again, non-attachment is the way I can become intimate with people. I think one of the main reasons I became a priest was so that I could be intimate with people.

[30:57]

Because the way I was intimate with people before being a priest was just such a problem. Because I didn't have the formality of the commitment to the precepts and also the public acknowledgement and expression of commitment to the precepts to help me be intimate with people. I was intimate according to my own attempts, but I wasn't doing too well. Because without the formal support from the tradition and also from other people knowing about this commitment to being a priest, I just didn't think it was going to be possible, and it really wasn't. My intimacy with one person interfered with my intimacy with another. But it wasn't really intimacy. My way of being with one person, I should say, interfered with my way of being with another person.

[31:59]

Because I didn't know how to be intimate with this person, it caused the person to, it interfered with my intimacy with another person. So this lack of intimacy interfered with developing intimacy over here. Whereas I feel that real intimacy with one person makes possible more intimacy with others. But I needed that support to do this amazing thing called Intimacy, which involves, so this non-attachment, this free to and free not to helps me get in closer to people, be closer to people, free to and free not to. Must be intimate or must be close interferes with me being close. or I must not be close interferes with me being close. But letting go of both of those, somehow we can find a way to be very, very close. It's that flexibility that lets us settle into this closeness.

[33:02]

It's that relaxation that helps us settle. And what comes to my mind now is a picture I saw of these two people sitting in a bathtub. It looks like a bathtub. And then coming from one person is flames coming from the other, sort of flames flying up from their head and their arms and their ears, arching over to the other person. And from the other person is like a fountain of water coming up and the flames in the water meeting over their heads and encasing them in this relationship. But what brings it to mind is how do you get into that soup How do you get into that situation where this arcing across difference can happen? How can you be relaxed to let yourself be transfused? To let yourself be received. So it is hard.

[34:04]

I'm glad you pointed out how hard it is to relax into free to, free not to. Way over there. This is a long walk over there. Actually, you know, a good experiment might be to have the person come up to the microphone rather than bring the microphone to the person. Yes. I was just thinking about the relationship between... This man knows how to use a microphone. A lot of training. You have to speak directly into that. Right. Excuse me for interrupting. That's all right. The relationship between formality and informality, and I started kind of investigating informal relationships, and it just occurred to me that

[35:11]

I think even in all my informal relationships, there's formality. There's maybe a different kind of formality, but for anybody raised by a society of humans, there's social conventions. So even among friends, if you're maybe joking and teasing each other, you're playing. on those forms, you know, or maybe if you're hanging out with a group of anarchists and we're really into, like, not observing forms, that's a form that's, like, built up around not observing form or something. So maybe it's just, like, a continuum of... like maybe acknowledging the forms or the forms being kind of unacknowledged and unspoken. But maybe like a real informal relationship doesn't exist. But when anarchists get together, do they like, you know, get together and recite the principles of anarchy?

[36:12]

Say, now, you're anarchist, right? Yes, I am too. Okay, got that straight. Do they do that? They say, oh, no, let's not even be clear about whether we're anarchists. There was an anarchist convention in Portland once, but there was a lot of disagreement about them having a convention. Did they agree on the city it was going to be in? Yeah, they did. And where they were going to meet? Yes. So there was some agreement about where and when to do the anarchy. Yeah, I think a key factor is that in working with formality, it's sort of to acknowledge the forms that are already there a lot of the times. So why don't you, could you come up and get it? Would that work? Yeah, or you can do whatever you want with it.

[37:14]

That's portable. So I'm curious about the relationship where celibacy comes into this, and I'm wondering whether celibacy is one way of kind of including formality in relationship. I think it is, yeah. I think, again, it's like you have an organism that's concerned about sexuality enough to adopt the policy of celibacy. I mean, some people are not involved sexually, but when you decide to be celibate, you're making a formal commitment to a certain way of behaving around this issue. And so I think it's a very formal thing to do. And you're hoping, I guess, that it will be some benefit to yourself and others. But you were saying yesterday something about... Well, the way I heard it was that possibly people that make a commitment to celibacy are somehow maybe avoiding the intimacy that comes up around sexuality or sexual attraction.

[38:26]

Is that right? Right. Yes. All right. And so I think what I said was if you practice celibacy with attachment... That is not benevolence. I think that's what I said. And what's the attachment there? If you would attach to the celibacy, you grasp it. As a protection? It could be whatever your motivation, whatever you thought was going to be, I guess you're hoping attaching to it would do for you, and it might do that to some extent, but it wouldn't be benevolent. I'm saying attachment contradicts benevolence almost always, I guess. I don't want to be attached to the idea of it, but it's possible to practice celibacy with no attachment to it. With this attitude, I'm practicing celibacy, but it doesn't matter whether I do or not.

[39:27]

I'm completely relaxed about this practice I'm doing, called this practice of celibacy. If I practice celibacy with this complete relaxation, which opens me to feedback from the universe about this practice of celibacy which I've adopted in order to have a good relationship with the universe, then I think it's an opportunity for benevolence. But if I attach to celibacy, then I think I interfere with the benevolence that would be potential there. Similarly, to have, I don't know what you call it, but a non-celibate relationship with people, and to attach to that also interferes with the process of benevolence, because the attachment blocks the information about what the proper response would be. So it might be that you could be celibate and be successfully celibate like

[40:28]

either make a commitment to celibacy or be de facto celibate, like the Buddha. As far as we know from the records, the Buddha, after his enlightenment, was de facto celibate. But I feel no attachment in the Buddha to celibacy. Therefore, the Buddha, because he has no attachment to celibacy or anything else, the Buddha can respond appropriately to whatever's happening. But if I cling to any policy, if I cling to any policy, one would be celibacy, or the policy of, if I was clinging to promiscuity, if I was clinging to either of those policies, that clinging would interfere with me being able to respond to whoever I'm meeting. Because in some cases, promiscuity wouldn't be appropriate, of course. And in some cases, hurling to celibacy wouldn't be appropriate. It doesn't mean necessarily you'd have to have sex with somebody, but it might be good to say something to someone.

[41:36]

So the classic example is, What if, you know, you were walking on the street, and you met someone, and you, according to the rules of celibacy, you weren't supposed to talk to them, but they needed you to say something to them would be helpful. And you could see that. Now, I shouldn't say you could see it. You couldn't even see it, maybe, because you're holding to the policy of celibacy, which says you shouldn't talk to this person. In that case, it might go against benevolence, even though you would be controlling yourself in certain ways. So yesterday I said I think that attaching to celibacy or any other policy around sexual activity or any other policy about any human activity, I say, contradicts benevolent relationship. But I would also say today that that contradicts intimacy. Holding makes it hard for us to settle into our actual relationship with the world.

[42:41]

which includes all beings. So holding to anything makes it hard for me to settle into my actual relationship with all beings. My actual relationship with all beings, the way we're actually functioning together, is enlightenment. Is that a good place to sit? Or would it be better if they moved up closer? I think if you move the mat up here, they can see you better, Sonia. At least these people up here can. Oh, you can stay there, though. If you'd like to stay there, that's fine. You can be wherever you'd like. Yeah, that'd be nice. You could go down in the lavatory and talk to us. Well, here I am in the laboratory and we have some really nice soap here.

[43:49]

Let's see, I have two things. I don't know if they're useful to put in here, but you had said that you had a little difficulty with the word formality in intimate. You felt some resistance. Yeah, I don't know where it's coming from, you know, if I'm channeling it or what, but there's something like, some part of me feels like, oh, we're an intimate relationship, we should be like free. Right. So I think there's a contradiction in my mind between free and formality. So, yeah, so. I think I need formality to be free. So when I was thinking of that idea you brought forward, I thought of what came to my mind around formality that's problematic might be stiffness. Right. Yes. So actually, if there are forms, which is what we've been saying, then actually it gives you the freedom to do lots of things because you know what the container is. But it's the stiffness that actually could bring up some resistance.

[44:56]

Right. So I just thought of these proms, you know, and the black tie. So it doesn't give much resistance. Yeah, like a prom where you wear a suit and a big fancy dress, so you feel a little stiff and awkward, like you can't just roll on the floor so easily. But at the same time, sometimes people, when they go to these events where they get dressed up, sometimes they feel more free than ever. Whereas if you're dressed in clothes that you could do anything in, you go to the dance and you feel like you can't move. But if you get dressed up enough, you start moving. You know, you feel like this output requires that I move across the floor in it. So it seems like in order to relax, then everybody has to agree to what the form is that they're functioning. Then you can play freely. Otherwise... Like in order to relax, then everybody has to agree to what the form is that they're functioning.

[46:01]

Then you can play freely. Otherwise, it's stiff because you're kind of like trying to make it. I think that's right. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's right. Strange that it seems that if we agree on the forms, it helps us relax. And if we don't agree on the forms, we're tense about, well, what are the forms here? What are the rules? What can I do? What can I do? Can I say hello? Can I touch? Can I not touch? If the rule is you can't touch, then you can say, okay, that's clear. Now, within not touching, how can I be intimate? And there is intimacy without touching, and there is intimacy with touching. Once we clear up the rule is, yes, you can touch, then now I can try to find out, well, what is the relaxed way to touch? So the other thing I wanted to ask about is this thing about non-attachment. So I'm feeling a little stiffness around this word and it feels like the whole sentence for me is not attached to self-benefit gives benevolence.

[47:11]

But you could be attached or maybe would say devoted or something like that to a particular form. But the thing that interferes with benevolence is maybe attaching to self-benefit. Or attaching to other benefit would also interfere. How so? I'm saying when you tense up around other benefit... Then, let's say I tense up around benefiting Sonia, right? And I'm tense, and then Sonia says, Reb, you know, that really isn't that helpful, what you're doing. But Sonia, you don't seem to understand. I am like, I'm helping you, Sonia. This is like me helping you. What you got here is help the Reb. Face it. Excuse me, no, no. Could I say something? No, you cannot say anything, because I am helping you. Now shut up and be helped. I'm totally fixated on helping you, and you better cooperate.

[48:12]

But you're helping me your way. Oh, yeah, that's right. I'm helping you my way, which has been converted into helping you. But it's really based on clinging, and clinging starts with self-clinging, but then it gets turned into all kinds of other varieties which aren't so clear, like clinging to welfare of others. So, yes... But how about just forget about trying to figure out what type of clinging is okay and what type's not, and just experiment with no clinging. No clinging to sex, no clinging to no sex. No clinging to celibacy, no clinging to sexual relationships. And then see what that would open up. Which is scary, but... Possible. It's being brought up anyway. We're bringing it up. We're bringing it up here. Come on up, girls. Come on up, guys.

[49:13]

She said, are we supposed to wait in line? Let's make a form that you don't have to wait in line, but a line might form, so deal with it. If a line forms, work with it. Work that line. Okay, the question pointed to that you said not to cling on something and sitting in sasana, I think, hey, I'm actually not clinging to all those emotions, but they're not going away. So it's this kind of... This kind of karma lifts me or something. So, like right now, I feel totally stupid to sit up there and totally deplaced because I was thinking, no, it was not my turn, why did I stand up? And now I'm sitting here totally deplaced, but I don't cling to it. Totally what? Deplaced. Misplaced.

[50:14]

Oh, you're misplaced? Misplaced. You're misplaced? Mm-hmm. What? Out of place. You're out of place? Are you out of place? You are? Well, how about if we're all out of place with you, would that be helpful? Even if I don't think to it. Pardon? Pardon? Pardon? Yes, the question was what do you actually really mean by not attached? What do I actually really mean by not attached? I don't know what that is. I don't have something I mean by not attached. But somehow I'm talking about it. I think it's the main point, not attachment. But it's not a thing. And you experience it?

[51:17]

I experience it? I don't know if I experience it. I do have some experience, but I don't know if that's it. Like just a moment ago, when we were talking about it, I kind of sighed, but I don't think that was non-attachment. I have my subjective sense of non-attachment, but I don't think that is really non-attachment. I think non-attachment is this mysterious thing about our true relationship. When you talk about formality and relationship, like this little story that came to mind, where I used to work there was this young

[52:27]

Asian woman who started to work there and I don't know how it came to be but after work at one point she said well how do you know when people like you like she was expressing the fact that she she it was hard to make friend or something like that and she said how do you know when you know when people like you and I was like really surprised when she said I was like And then I thought about when I grew up, we used to say in French, you go au feeling. Au feeling, that means you just feel yourself through a situation. And so that's how I sort of grew up dealing with things. You just go au feeling. And I wonder, like formality, sort of you... there's not a danger of losing this sort of subtle language that happens when you deal with everything, but with people mostly about, I'm not sure how to explain it, but you know, like there's this sort of poking and teasing that goes around or something.

[53:47]

And maybe it's kind of a little more Latin as opposed to, you know, like Japanese, they seem a little more formal. But it seems to me like it's another form. It's a Latin form, a Latin suggestion which you might agree with someone on. So in a certain culture, you might say, let's try this way. And that might be something that would help you both parties that agree, let's try this way to relax and experiment with this way. Well, the fact that she seemed to be at a loss, like she was lacking in some kind of, and painfully because she felt, you know, isolated in a way of dealing with the situation, which to me is like a form. It seems like something rigid, like you go and, you know, you get introduced and stuff like that. Or like, let's say, you know, in sexual relationship, you go and say, well, you know.

[54:49]

you know, this is the form would you like to sleep with me, you know? Sounds kind of a little, you know what I mean? Yes. That's not really the way. Right. That wouldn't work for me, for example. Right. Well. What I'm saying is that there is like a really, like there's a whole like seduction things, you know, for sexuality, but also just for really like simple relationship. There is, It's like a very complex language there. And I wonder, through formality, it wouldn't be lost or something. I don't know. Does that make sense? Yeah, it makes perfect sense. A couple of things that come up to me. One is, the last one of the things you said, the word about seduction. I heard that someone suggested that when it's time for some country, particularly the United States, to assign a new ambassador to another country, that they send the various candidates over to that country to meet the people over there, so that the people who are going to be the ambassador learn a little bit about how to be seductive

[56:10]

about how do you go and talk to French people knowing that you don't have the job yet, and part of your job is to make them choose you. How would you make the French people or the German people want to choose you to be the American ambassador? Rather than you send the ambassador, okay, I'm from America, I'm representing America, deal with me. It's more like, remember me? I'm the guy who came over here and you like me and you invited me to be the person, right? Huh? What? They have the attitude of... No, that's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. I just said that. I said that. That's what you do if you don't do this thing I suggested. But they don't do what I just suggested. They don't send the ambassador over to send the various candidates over to the country to see which one the country would choose.

[57:14]

They don't do that. They do not do that. That's why the American ambassador comes over and says, well, here I am. I'm representing America. You know, that's the usual American way. Rather than sending over the person who is the person who not only is the person that the other country liked the best among the candidates, but it's a person who knew when he went over to meet them that them liking him would be a major ingredient in getting the job. Someone suggested that would help our relationship with foreign countries if the person who went over there was somebody who was trying to find out how to get them to recognize him rather than, you recognize me for starters, I don't recognize you. You have to recognize them when you try to. So the element of seduction, I think, is part of the deal. And yet, I think seduction needs to be done without seeking anything. In other words, a relaxed seduction. Because seduction is part of the deal with humans.

[58:18]

It's part of our thing to work with that energy. Which means you recognize the other in a certain way to do that. You're trying to... Anyway, so I think that's part of it. The other thing that came to mind, what you're saying, is this thing about other cultures and that we think they're other. And how do we work with another culture? How do we deal with this otherness? So that comes back again to like when we meet someone, whether it's the same gender or a different gender, we recognize this is the same. This is like I'm a female, that's a female. Gender is the same and there's otherness there. I'm a Frenchman, this is a Frenchman. We're both Frenchmen, but there's otherness there. Or I'm a Frenchman and this is a Japanese. How do we work with that? How do we make a container to contain this parent-self-other thing in such a way that we get over the other?

[59:22]

The other thing is our problem. This otherness is what we're trying to get over here in this benevolence. So if you have this, in a certain culture, this thing maybe works as a form, I would say, for overcoming the otherness, because you're talking about how do you find your way, sort of through these complex relationships with others within that culture. So you have this agreement on this method. And in Italy and France and so on, it's very lovely to see how it works. But when they interact with someone from another culture, they have to make a new container, which is, that's the challenge. But much of what you were doing, I thought your body language seemed to be basically saying, we must be relaxed, we must be fluid, we must be flexible. That's what I thought basically you were trying to show. Right, and also open, like there's a certain like, okay, you know, I say this and I see what comes back.

[60:30]

And so it's like dancing also. Yes, yes, yes, yes, right. But I was talking to Linda about this. Linda's a tango dancer. The tango looks like they really push on each other in the tango. and there's a lot of energy and tension in the tango, but it's a dance. They agree on this thing, and they use that energy to move. They use that tension and pressure on each other to move each other around. And it's a fluid... built on tension. So how do we open to the tension, include the tension in a relaxed and flexible way, not saying, okay, if you try to do tango without pushing on the other person, they say, no, you have to push. They lean into each other. You can't do these moves unless you're pushing on the other person and unless you're pushing back. There's other dances, though, where there's no pushing, different styles.

[61:35]

But, okay, Good, thank you. Let's see. Now the question is, this is another form, like, how much longer should we go on? We can do this day after day. Have we done enough? Is this about enough, or should we go on a little longer? What's the feeling of this assembly? One more question? Is that about right? Okay. There's how many people waiting? Three? Should we do these three people? Okay. Okay, let's take these three people. They thought it was funny. They thought you're funny. They think you're a sit-down comedian. Well, I'm terrified, so... Not because of being here, but because of what I want to say. Sometimes holding comes up as an interference in the intimacy that can arise out of the freedom of these forms.

[62:53]

Can you hear? I have to get used to the fact that you can hear her answer. And it's on the tape. That's right. You all heard what she said, right? But let me repeat it even so. Because it's really important. Sometimes a holding comes with the freedom that comes from the forms. Right? The forms allow freedom and then there's a holding. Oops, we're getting freedom here. Yikes. Yeah. And that holding that comes that I'm concerned with in this conversation anyway is the fear that comes with a sense either imagined or recognized of an inappropriate intimacy coming my way. And this comes from like a desire or something grasping that frightens me. And I may be making it up or I may be responding to what's really there, but what I'm experiencing is a holding that blocks everything.

[64:02]

And this is, in my case, and I'm sure there are other people who experience this also, And it's hard to work with because, I mean, I can work with it sitting in zazen, but it's different in actual interactions. Yes. Because it comes from something so old and so deep and that wounded child, the abuse that you talk about. And I guess the question is... what to do with it I mean or not do with it in actual interaction with people I mean I understand or feel how I sit with it in sitting with it mm-hmm But when I find myself feeling hostile or angry or like I'm putting up a wall to keep people away because of it, I don't feel free to let the wall down. I can feel free to let the wall down when I'm sitting. But not, yeah.

[65:03]

So that's... Yeah, that's... So I can... So I remember it made me... One time, quite a long time ago, I was feeling very, very relaxed. And I felt very good, too. about being relaxed. And then I thought, in this relaxed state, if I continue to be relaxed like this, I would have no way to resist any person's whatever they were bringing to me. And I thought, whoa. I thought, gee, it's funny that this total relaxation, and I feel so good, but I feel so endangered at the same time. And I thought, gee, this is a real problem. That the best I've ever felt, I also feel like anybody could do anything they want with me. Yikes. Now, fortunately, there's nobody around right now, but if they knew, if people knew, I mean, wouldn't I just be putty in their hands?

[66:07]

Because I feel like I really don't feel good about saying no to anything that anybody would bring right now. So aren't I in danger? Aren't I vulnerable? The answer is, yes, I am. And yet, I feel really good. Now what I have to say at this point in my practice is I have more confidence that this vulnerability and relaxation also will... If I don't clinch up when they come, which is... See, I'm not clinched now. And because I'm not clinched, they might come and say, can I have your body for these uses? I'm not clinched, so they might come, and I'm open to that. But if they come and I clinch, well, it's all over. I'm back to my normal state, which I don't like. And I'm also, in some sense, defended again, which I don't like. So I've blown it.

[67:07]

But going back to the situation before I blew it, when I was just vulnerable, I have more confidence now that that vulnerability with the relaxation will be able to take care of not just me and not just the other, but the whole situation. I have more confidence that that's what a martial artist is about. Martial art is about being vulnerable. Because, in fact, it's about being attacked, potentially. But it's about relaxing yourself and facing, opening to that vulnerability, and then when the attack comes, which is really not an attack unless you tense up. If you don't tense up, it's an opportunity for benevolence. So, this is another thing about intimacy. When the hands come, Reaching in, reaching towards.

[68:13]

In the relaxation, you'll find, not you'll find, in your relaxation, the appropriate response will come, like, my, what big hands you have. Oh, what better to grasp you with. Oh, what big teeth you have. Oh, what better to bite you. Oh, my God, what do we have going on here? Is the sound system still working? In other words, as the ante arises, more relaxed, more challenged, more relaxed, as we enter deeper and deeper into this Buddha mind. And so we need to create a container where we can try this, let this go a little bit. So Zazen's a container for it. Okay, fine. What other containers, is there some situation where you're actually meeting somebody where you feel you dare to bring your vulnerability?

[69:20]

And that's what I mean by creating a container. You could say, okay, knock, knock, hello. I just want to send a message even before I come in here that I would like to figure out how I would come in here and be vulnerable and at the same time I stay relaxed with this vulnerability when there's somebody around who could reach over there and touch me. And in my sensitive state, if I'm touched, I want to be touched, but if I'm touched too roughly, it might really hurt. And I would like to be able to say, would you please be more gentle? So did I bring up uncle before here? Okay, when I was a little kid, I did, okay. Some people think, anyway, when I was a little kid and we were wrestling, we would say, if somebody was getting too rough, we would say uncle, which means let go, break time. So that's part of creating the container for wrestling. You say uncle. So you feel, okay, we can wrestle, but if I say uncle, you stop, and then you may even try it a few times.

[70:27]

Let's try that uncle a few times here. Uncle, okay, uncle. Okay, it looks like you will stop. So you need to have maybe some, you have to have these understandings of if you're touched and the touch seems to be overwhelming, can you say, uncle? Can you say, time out? I think I tend to say, get back. Okay, so could the agreement be beforehand that for you, uncle is get back? Doesn't seem very intimate. But if we agree, if we agree, he said, okay, my name's Catherine and, you know, and I'm into defense. And so if I don't understand beforehand that if I feel that it's getting to be too much, I want to be able to say get back because actually I know how to say that. That's one of my standard phrases is get back. So I'm pretty sure I'll be able to say that even if I'm overwhelmed. But I don't know if I could say uncle. It's a little bit too relaxed for me. So can I start with get back?

[71:28]

Fine. Fine. Get back. So I can be in agreement. And maybe with everybody that you want to have this kind of meeting with, In other words, you want to come to meet somebody in the vulnerability you find in zazen. You want to see if you can meet somebody in that space, that openness, that relaxation. but you need some container for that, some agreement, some rules given. I need to be able to say, no, thank you. And this person has to say, okay, you can say that, and I will stop. I will shut up. I will be quiet until you tell me to go on. I won't say anything more for a while. You can stop my words. You can stop my physical gestures by saying that. And you try that, and maybe you find out, yeah, okay. So it's a little bit of control brought into the situation where you're considering letting go of control. And so you have this potential to control, but maybe you never use it after a while.

[72:32]

But you know you could. You could say, I've got to take a step back into the land of control. This is just too much for me. I can't trust this. I've got to say no, stop, get back. And you have this understanding beforehand that you can say that. So this is what it takes, I think. This is called a formality. It's called formality of making an agreement about how to set limits. But you agree on it. It isn't a one-sided limit setting. I'll go now. But I do think that that agreement already implies a kind of intimacy to be able to make that agreement. Definitely. And it's the clenched up holding fear as saying, no intimacy there, thank you very much. Right. There has to be some intimacy even to set that up. Even to build a container requires some admission that you're building a container for intimacy. And that takes... So how can you gingerly approach building a relationship with someone?

[73:36]

Well, you just did it. and thoughts sitting back there. One is that it might be interesting to note this tape as a tape that people in a new practice period should listen to or could listen to. Mostly I just wanted to go back and acknowledge or go back to what you were saying before and acknowledge the forms. That one form for me that has worked a lot is the form of small groups. and that what was interesting was watching the form develop and then the intimacy come and that the first time it was rough and feelings got hurt and the second time apologies were made and then that set a little bit of boundary about what this form could be and then by the last group and each time the intimacy increased.

[75:07]

So that was one form that really worked wonderfully in terms of that. The other form that we have here is tea with our partners, our comrades here. And that invitation to tea, you know, that there's a beginning to the conversation and there's an end to the conversation. I haven't thought about what else is in there. Part of it is just pouring the tea and taking the time and asking, what kind of tea would you like? And figuring that out. And especially with new people, new friends. Just, you know, oh, you take milk and sugar. And then watching that lead to the possibility of intimacy. And then there's a time limit. There's a bell that's going to ring or more activity or laundry, and then that conversation can end.

[76:09]

So just those forms I have found just wonderful as a way of trying out intimacy. And then my problem becomes, of course, wanting to totally hold on to it. Your problem comes when? I want to hold on to it. To hold on to the form? Oh, to hold the intimacy. To hold the intimacy. Oh, no, the form I can let go, but the intimacy is what I want to hold on to. And so I've been watching that. and just paying attention to it. And some of that brings joy. Some of it can get expressed in serving. I find myself wanting to give exactly the right thing and do it exactly the way that person wants to do it. So I love the way I can take the desire for intimacy which I want to glomp onto one person and spread it out.

[77:13]

And just, you know, which feels safer and more accepted. That is what's accepted. So we need forms to protect against grasping the intimacy which forms provide. And we do have forms like that. For example, in serving, if you're having a really intimate time serving one person and you just stay there and stay there, people will come and say, Sala, serve the next person. That's right. Come on, Sala, come on. Move on there. You're spending too much time here, Sala. So then... But maybe you feel the form without anyone saying it. You feel like, I guess I should move on to the next person. I have been here quite a while. This is great. So the form should have that aspect too of giving feedback on attachment to, if not the form itself, the wonderful realizations that happen in those forms of freedom.

[78:20]

And the last thing was that to acknowledge, I mean, when I was thinking about the thing that Suzuki Roshi said, the part that Suzuki said about more form with intimates, and thinking that that's certainly true in terms of my 35-year-old marriage, That in some way I have more forms with Alan than I do with people that I just met. You know, that, and I was listening to Jerome use the word seduction, or seduction in English. But, you know, that, you know, that, you know, the spontaneity, I mean, I remember back to my youth and the spontaneity of seduction. And now the dates for intimacy. Did you say the dates? The dates that we have to set for times of intimacy. And that that is what has happened with time.

[79:26]

Yeah, it surprises some people who have been married a really long time. They apply some of the principles of their early relationship to their later relationship and don't understand that you have to be more formal the longer you're married. So it seems strange that you'd have to make a date with your spouse. But after many years, you sort of have to make definite dates, like, I'll be here on these days. It seems the more necessary, the more intimate you get. The longer you're with the person, the more you're likely to think, It's going to happen. I don't have to do anything. Whereas when you first meet somebody, you realize if you don't say, I'd like to talk to you, it probably won't happen. So you say, I'd like to talk to you. And they say, fine. And then you do it. But sometimes they say, well, we need to make a date. And you say, fine. And so it makes sense that you would. But sometimes you don't have to make a date because right now you're telling them.

[80:27]

But with your spouse, sometimes you don't feel like saying, I would like to talk to you. But sometimes you do. Sometimes you say, I would like to talk to you. And sometimes they say, well, actually, I'm busy right now. That seems strange. You're my spouse. You shouldn't be busy when I want to talk to you. But I am. So I have to make a date. Strange but true. And so here, like, I make dates with all you people. I make dates. And theoretically, shouldn't I be able just to wander around here and know interact without any structure well in fact no i i need to i need to have it be dates that's where it is for me and it seems to be working for me quite well that way that's the form of we've worked out there's informal sides too But sometimes the intensity of certain kinds of intimacy require a date.

[81:34]

So that you, well, we can get into that later.

[81:39]

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