This character which I've been referring to previously, which means nature or sex or gender. And again it has this nice quality of showing that it's nature in some sense is this combination of mind and birth. So, in one sense, what we're talking about is how do we care for nature? How do we care for what is born of mind? In the Buddhist teaching, all things are born of mind or born in dependence on mind.

[01:04]

There are no things floating around the universe apart from minds. Minds make things. So nature for us is things that are born in relationship to the mind. And once they're born in dependence on the mind, and the mind is born in relationship to things, then the question is, how do we live with these things that are born? How do we live with nature? So I wrote here, by studying nature, we may realize no nature, or realize the mind of no birth. So I take the Chinese character for nature and split it into mind and birth, and put no in the middle. So the mind of no birth.

[02:10]

By penetrating the mind of birth, we realize the mind of no birth. Or we realize no birth, which is also a nickname for nirvana. By studying what arises and ceases, we realize what doesn't arise and cease. And then as Bodhisattva's that realization of birthlessness is not grasped. It is released. And then we re-enter again to further study what is born. But after having tasted or touched or been touched by the mind of no birth, the mind of nirvana now helps us be more beneficent in the world of things that are born. So that in this character which means nature or things that are born, it also means sex.

[03:17]

So we can say, I can say, how is nature cared for? How is sex cared for? How is gender cared for? How is nature studied? How is sex studied? How is gender studied? And we have this precept, bodhisattva precept number three. It's three among the ten grave precepts. It's three among the ten major precepts of our school.

[04:20]

And it's three among the ten major precepts of the general bodhisattva precepts of 58. It's number three. And so the precept sometimes is phrased, Well, we want to embrace and sustain this precept. And this precept is not abusing or misusing sexuality. It's put negatively. The precept of not misusing sexuality. Not misengaging in sexuality. Not misworking sexuality. not dysfunctional sexuality. It's a precept. Put it positively. What is appropriate, beneficent, enlightening relationship with sexuality?

[05:28]

What is the enlightening function of sexuality? what is the beneficent function of sexuality, of gender, of what is born, of nature. So going back to our ongoing discussions in this practice period about renunciation, let me again say, rather than ask you because you probably forgot, Practicing with sexuality in a state of renunciation is the bodhisattva way of practicing with sexuality. And renunciation means to meet sexuality with no mind. It means to meet whatever comes with no mind. But now today's topic is To meet sexuality with no mind, which means to meet sexuality with no mind that grasps it or seeks it or rejects it.

[06:39]

Meeting sexuality, it means to embrace and sustain sexuality. So embracing and sustaining the precept of not misusing sexuality means to embrace and sustain sexuality. in the appropriate way, in the beneficent way, in the enlightening way. So, what is that? It's like, first of all, I guess, since I have my thumb on this word, first of all, you know, meeting sexuality when it comes, it comes sometimes, like your gender comes sometimes. or someone else's gender comes, sexuality comes and you meet it with a recognition of vulnerability to sexuality. It's not that you make yourself vulnerable, you are vulnerable.

[07:47]

You're a born thing, born things are vulnerable to being born, and born things are vulnerable to dying, and born things are vulnerable to sexuality. So, part of meeting sexuality in an enlightening way is to admit that we're vulnerable to it. That's what I say. Also, for me, the part of the beneficent relationship with sexuality is that we care for it. We respect it. We are gentle with it. We acknowledge it. If it never needed any nurturing, we would nurture it.

[08:52]

Usually it doesn't, but I guess in some situations it does. Maybe I shouldn't say usually. I haven't done a statistical study of this. Maybe it needs a lot of nurturing. Anyway, if it does, nurture it. And then again, just turn it around. So what is misusing sexuality? Misusing sexuality would be not respecting it, not being honest about it, not being gentle with it, starving it, being cruel to it, denying it, suppressing it. This is called misuse of sexuality, all those ways. And indulging in it, which also could be mentioned, indulging in it is a form of disrespect. is a form of not being gentle. I think if we use something in a really gentle way, we don't indulge in it.

[09:54]

I think if we're really respectful of something, we don't indulge in it. I think if we're respectful, we're not greedy for it. That's what I think. That's what I feel. Of course, it's not so easy to be respectful moment by moment of anything. even something as precious and lovely as sexuality. So how can we honor it? I remember in the Iliad, I think it's Helen who says, to her, this lady who's visiting her named Aphrodite. Love, the goddess of love. She just happens to be visiting Troy.

[10:56]

And I think Helen goes running up to her and says, divine madness, and prostrates herself to the goddess. Actually, it doesn't say divine madness, I got it wrong. Immortal madness is what she calls her. She's already a goddess, you don't have to call her divine. Immortal madness. Aphrodite is in immortal madness. This is not a madness which is going to go away. I mean, she may go away, like float over to Istanbul for a while. But she's going to come back whenever she feels like it. And then you've got Aphrodite in your face. And what you do then is you say, put your hands in gassho and you say, immortal madness. Please grant me the wisdom to surrender to you and be your good servant and not misuse you.

[11:59]

This lectern is built in such a way as that it wobbles. It's a wobbly lectern. Have you ever heard of what are called a bully pulpit? Huh? Bully pulpit? That's what Teddy Roosevelt used to use. Huh? What did bully pulpit mean, political science people? Right. This is a wobbly pulpa. So anyway, someone, I mentioned that Suzuki Roshi said to me when, it was actually, I'll just give you the date. It was the summer of 1970. It was in cabin six. you know, Mel and I were sitting there. No, this is a different time. It's a different conversation. Anyway, in the summer of 1970s when he told Mel and me, told me not to get married for 16 years.

[13:20]

And I got married four and a half years after that. And he told me this just before I became ordained as a priest. He told me this like in early July and I was ordained in August. And Someone said that they wanted me to be clear that although I didn't get married for four and a half years from that time, I was not celibate during that time. Now what I was, I'll explain later. In minute detail. But for now I just want to say I wasn't celibate and that he didn't say for us to be celibate. Can you believe it? This is a Zen center, this is like 31 years ago, about. At that time, he told us not to get married, but he didn't tell us to be celibate. There was a loophole, according to the sharp-eyed, she was so-so loophole.

[14:25]

However, I am now trying to tighten that loophole into a sort of like, sort of impenetrable knot. So I'm asking people, in the first part of their priest training anyway, to not get involved in sexual relationships, even married ones. But, of course, priests, if they're going to have a sexual relationship, I want them to get married. I want them to make a lifelong commitment. If it's important enough to be sexually involved with someone, it's important enough to make this a lifelong hell. And in this hell, in this container of the relationship, enlightenment will occur. I promise. But you've got to stay in. You can't keep jumping out every few minutes. You've got to relax into that cauldron.

[15:28]

So anyway... So in some ways, I'm being more clear about what I think is appropriate than he was in some ways. However, I will say that after I became ordained, he did very, very gently give me some instruction about this issue. And again, I don't know if this is in the book, but there's a thing in the book about this. He gave me this envelope and drew five vertical arrows. Is that in the book? Was it ever in the book? Okay, well, anyway, that would be good to have in some book. But anyway, I still have that envelope. It's like a little three-by-five used envelope. It had some, I don't know, I forgot what it had written on it. I think maybe it says Reverend Suzuki on it. And he wrote five vertical arrows on it, like wrote three about the same length and made one standing up higher than the other ones and then another short one.

[16:31]

And he pointed to the tall one and he said, we don't have that one. Can you picture that? Five arrows, three sticking up, and then one higher than the rest, and then another short one. And the way I understood it was, you don't like go around emphasizing one point of your practice and be really good at it. That's one way to understand what he's saying. That's the way I took it at the time. Like, you don't, like, you know, go to the Zen door every morning and sit still and be a super, you know, devoted to Zazen and, like, be a real, like, champion Zazen sitter and then in other aspects of your life be less devoted. So the way I took that was it isn't that you're not good at something. It's that you bring everything up to that level. So if you're really like totally devoted to zazen, then you're also totally devoted to the precepts and to serving your fellow practitioners.

[17:35]

You bring all the aspects of your practice up to that level. Now somebody else might have thought you should push that one down. That's another method. Just don't be so devoted to zazen or chanting or whatever you are. Squash it down. But I actually, at the time anyway, all those years, I took it as lift the other practices up equal to it. as much as possible. And then he wrote in Chinese, I think two characters, maybe three, and he said, this is a monastic regulation, and it means don't visit other people's rooms. So he wasn't saying be celibate, but he did write that character, that rule on this piece of paper, which I still have, and I can show you if you want to see it someday. I'm sure you do. And then he said, I don't want to tell you to do this. Was he gentle with me or what? He wrote it down, drew the little diagram and said, I don't want to tell you to do this.

[18:40]

And then I said, but you want me to do this, right? He said, mm-hmm. So... So that's, I'm still trying to figure out what does he mean by, what is that, how do I do the practice he's recommending? In other words, when is it appropriate to visit people's room and when isn't it? When is it beneficent to visit somebody's room? When isn't it? When is it not grasping and not seeking to go visit somebody? So I think it means don't go visit people out of grasping and seeking. But of course, if it's helpful to go to somebody's room, you should go as a bodhisattva and help them. Well, not help them. Do the thing that's helpful. What is helpful?

[19:43]

What is promoting freedom for everybody? Not just that person or this person, but the whole works. what's promoting the beneficence of the whole situation. So, another little miscellaneous thing I just wanted to say to you, which I've been thinking of saying to you for a long time, is we have a verse which we sometimes, which I mentioned to you, and it starts out, it's a bowing verse. and it has a character for bowing, and then it has a Chinese character, which means able to or a sign of activity. Then it has the character for bowing, and then it has a Chinese character, which is a signal for passive or receptive. So it's the ability to bow and that which is bowed to

[20:51]

or the ability to bow and what receives the bow. Okay? Literally. So you can translate that as the one bowing and the one bowed to. Or you can even say the person bowing and the person bowed to. So that when you're bowing to Buddha, you can say one bowing, one bowed to, or you can say the ability to bow, the receiving of the bow, Okay? So, one bowing, one bowed to, their nature, and the word nature is that same character, which means nature, what is born, and sexuality or gender. One bowing, one bowed to, their nature, no nature. My body, other bodies, not two. So bowing is an example of appropriate sexuality.

[21:58]

If there's sexuality, you bow to it. And you bow to it with this respect of the one bowing and the one bowed to. They're not two. When you really meditate on how we're not two, you start to have almost as much, you start to respect the other. One bowing, one bowed to their nature, no nature. Plunge into the inexhaustible vow of the bodhisattva. Realize the Buddha way. And the other thing I want to mention which we can get into in detail or not, but these ethical principles, you know, and particularly this one about the third precept, third grave precept, these are examples, this is an example of a form which hopefully could create a container for beneficent sexual functioning or a beneficent relationship to our sexuality.

[23:18]

But again, the forms, these precepts, can be used in a rigid way. And the very forms which are proposed as a context for the practice of the precepts could be used as a tool for violating them. In other words, you could use the precept of not misusing sexuality, you could use that precept to disrespect sexuality, to hate sexuality, to hate others who are sexually active, to hate yourself when you feel sexual activity arising. To use the precept, to use the form to suppress, to deny to protect yourself from your vulnerability. I shouldn't say protect yourself from your vulnerability.

[24:19]

You can't protect yourself from your vulnerability. You can only deny it. And if you admit it, then you're protected because you know how to behave, namely, gently. I'm just a poor little thing here. Please, you know. Let me be gentle with you and you be gentle with me and maybe I can live a little longer. So these forms are, they can be misused too. The forms which are supposed to promote appropriate sexual relationships can be used to promote inappropriate sexual relationships, namely being cold with yourself and cold with others, or as someone mentioned, being judgmental of others, which is, of course, being judgmental is not respectful.

[25:24]

But to judge someone is just a function of your mind. You can't help judging someone if you see someone kissing someone, you're judging that they're kissing someone. It's all over. But to grasp that as the reality of the situation, that's being judgmental. To judge and be sure that your judgment is correct is unkind and disrespectful, not gentle. So maybe that's enough for for starters, is it? You don't know. I don't know. Anything coming up?

[26:41]

If you like to come up, you can just go get the microphone and speak from wherever you like. Either you can stand while you speak or sit. I mean, that's okay with me. Is it okay with everybody else if people stand or sit? You can stand over there. You can come closer, whichever you like. Okay, I thought it was a question but now I'm not sure if it's a question or just checking if it's more like a practice. But I was thinking about sexual energy and there was a question between having sexual energy and celibacy and then mixing in with that

[27:42]

self-fulfilling samadhi. So, yeah, actually it is a question. What is the question? How a celibate practitioner can, I guess, realize her sexual energy. Yeah. How could someone who's practicing celibacy understand and care for sexuality in a way that would bring enlightenment, that would promote enlightenment? Yeah. Well, for starters, I would just repeat what I said. If one is practicing celibacy, for example, as I'm asking priests to do, now, if a priest is already married and has a stable relationship, They can continue to be married during the first part of their training that I'm doing with them.

[28:46]

They don't have to be celibate. But people who aren't in a sexual relationship, in the usual sense of sexual, who aren't in an intimate sexual relationship with someone, I ask them not to start one for five years after becoming ordained. So during that time, they would be, in a sense, celibate. Now, we don't have to call that celibacy. We can just say they're just not starting anything. But you could say that they like to call it that. They like the word. They say, I want to practice that way. And so let's say we agree. Yes, let's do that practice for five years. Now, when sexual energy arises, if the sexual energy turns into... I don't know what. Let's say it turns into... wanting to... Desire. It turns into desire. Oh, you want to suggest something?

[29:48]

It turns into desire. I was going to suggest raking Tassajara. Not the same. But not too much. But anyway, it could turn into desire, and desire for what? Desire for what? What kind of desire? Desire to... Desire to somehow find peace with that sexual energy, because it feels very volatile. Desire to find peace with the sexual energy. Now, I don't know if the desire for, you know, again, is the desire for peace with the sexual energy sexual? It could be. Or is it Buddha mind? And I don't want to separate the two too much, but... But they're somewhat different. The energy of like... So tell me about the sexual energy because the desire to be at peace with it doesn't sound necessarily... That just sounds like kind.

[30:53]

The desire to try to be relaxed with it. How do you be relaxed with something very... How do you be relaxed with certain energy? So do you want to talk about how to be relaxed with the energy? So can you describe the energy that you're talking about that we're going to try to relax with? Well, let's see, some words would be powerful and beyond some feeling of, you know, beyond some sort of like yogic control. Okay, just a second. So she said powerful. Now I just want to mention that power is a word that's related to energy. Energy. that's one of the ways power is used in physics anyway, is power... I think energy is the ability to do work and power is the rate at which you do the work.

[31:59]

So power has something to do with energy. But I think you also now said that this energy is somewhat undisciplined. Is that what you're saying? Undisciplined. Okay, yeah. Because it's not under control. Yeah. I should not take away not discipline. Anyway, it's not under control. Yeah. And it could be brought under control, maybe, one might think. I personally would recommend considering the possibility, especially if I was working with a particular person, I could actually see them. Now, if they were just about to run into the... Is that the women's dorm over there now? Mostly women in there? So if somebody was going to run into the women's dorm and burst into somebody's room without being invited, if they told me that, I might say, well, why don't you control that if you can? But under other circumstances, I might just say, well, maybe controlling this energy is not really the way to discipline it. Maybe there's some other way to discipline it.

[33:09]

that will be, that will find peace with it. Do you have any suggestions? Yeah, I did. Be kind to it. Got this, like this energy which could be, which one, which the mind or the body could try to control. Like they often recommend cold showers. Or another thing that's sometimes recommended is think of something really... I don't know what the word is. Disgusting? Disgusting or... I don't know what... Very sad. One of the images they use in the text is think of lambs Think of sheep having their eyes pecked out by crows. Sometimes sheep, I've seen it happen myself.

[34:12]

In England, they have a lot of sheep and the sheep, they have trouble digesting all that English grass. So they roll over in their back and roll in their back to try to work the gas out of their back. The gas collects across their back. So they roll on their back to express that gas and feel more comfortable. But sometimes they roll against a fence or something and get stuck there on their back. And then crows attack them when they're in that vulnerable state and peck their eyes out. And of course they die because they... And so that kind of image is suggested as a way to snap yourself out of certain kinds of indulgence in this sexual energy. It's kind of like throwing cold water in your face or something. So that's a kind of controlling thing. But that could be done, I suppose, in a loving way. The point is, if someone is

[35:14]

feeling this energy and they're groping for some way to express it because to coop it up makes you like, it's like, you know, the ship, the container's almost ready to burst, right? It's very uncomfortable. It wants to express itself. Right? So how can we give an expression to it, find a way to express it that won't harm and help this person relax a little bit with this. What can be a good expression? One expression is for the person to be able to talk to somebody and tell somebody, you know, I'm really feeling like I can barely contain this. Saying that is an expression of that energy. Saying, you know, I really want to be free of this tension. To talk about it might be a way to express it. Swimming. is a way to express it.

[36:18]

The pool is quite popular these days, as you may have noticed. Walking, running, these are wholesome expressions of that energy when it gets to be so much. Sometimes, however, that energy is just right and you're just glowing. So this is what we call yogically disciplined. yogically disciplined, sexual energy is arising and it perfectly fills your body. It's just the right size for your body. Your body meets it, it meets your body, it lifts you up into an upright posture. And no more than that. It doesn't lift you off the cushion or lift your head off your shoulders. or your shoulder off your torso. It just fits just right. But sometimes it's too much for this little body. And sometimes you have to do something to give it fuller expression. And that's the dangerous area in a way.

[37:25]

So, again, you know, sometimes you feel... One time I was talking to someone and I had this painful feeling in my chest. And I just felt... I didn't think, oh, this is sexual energy in my chest. And I'm not saying now that it is either. But anyway, I felt like... I felt a pain here, and it was not just a pain, but it was a dusty pain. It was a dry pain. It was a pain from being... I'm not a dry thing. I'm mostly water, so feeling dry goes against my nature in a way. But I was feeling this kind of dried up feeling around my heart, and it just occurred to me, or it occurred... that if I would say something, it would relieve this pain.

[38:37]

And what it was that I thought of saying was, I love you. But I didn't say that to have any effect. Well, actually I did. I said it to give expression to this energy so that this wouldn't feel blocked here anymore. And actually, at some point this person said to me, I think something like, I know you do, and I hope you don't say this to someone who would misinterpret it. Because it's got to be careful, because if you say you love someone, if you say, I should say, I didn't say you love someone, but if you say I love you to someone, they might think that you're making a pass at them. Whereas actually, you're just trying to acknowledge the way you feel and you have to say it. You have to say that in order to fully express it.

[39:41]

So part of working with sexual energy, I think, is to try to give it a container. Give it the right size container. Find a place, a way, a field that's big enough for it to function. So that reminds you of... Is that my beginner's mind, right? The worst thing to do with sexual energy is what? Remember that part of the Zen Mind Beginner's Mind I'm talking about? Yeah. The worst thing to do with sexual energy is to ignore it. This is the cow, right? The worst thing is to ignore it. That's the worst. People ignore... That's the worst. The next, I think he said the next worst, or somewhat better, you could say, is to try to control it. The best way is give it a big field where you can watch it, where it can roam and express itself. So try to find a field.

[40:45]

And I would suggest don't make this field all by yourself. Get somebody who wants to make, not somebody who wants to control it or ignore it, but somebody who wants to help you make a field. Make a field for it. So priest training, I hope, can be a field for people that's big enough to contain their sexual energy, to contain and give it range to express itself as raking, as saying I love you sometimes, as saying may I help you, as cooking, as ringing bells, as sitting and feeling this energy fully. and so on and so on. So we work. And sometimes of course it seems like the container is going to burst so maybe we need to renegotiate how big it is and make it a little bit bigger. And sometimes it might be too loose. And there's some kind of controlling going on inside so we have to make the container come in and relieve that controlling impulse.

[41:49]

Or sometimes things are being ignored and they need to be pointed out. That's why it's good to build a container with someone else, with a teacher. who maybe can point out, you know, I think you might be overlooking how that was such and such, or how that might appear to be such and such. So, to build a form to help us be aware, be gentle and uncontrolling, to be unpicking and choosing, ungrasping and seeking, and yet watch it and enjoy it. Because it is life, after all. And it is actually quite enjoyable. And usually when you're enjoying something, it's right there. Now, I'm not saying if you took sexual energy out of people, they couldn't enjoy anything. But I don't know anybody that you can take it out of. But if there was somebody like that, maybe they would have a good time, too. They probably wouldn't be a human anymore, but they'd be still, I guess, something.

[42:51]

But anyway, does that give you some idea? Thank you. It does give you some idea? Some sense of how to proceed? How to create the field? Good. Ah, yes. Thank you. Does that make sense to other people at all? If you have any comments, you can come up and make them. Yes. Is that it? If you hold it like this, more horizontal, yeah, like that. When I was going to say yesterday, but I can't really form it very well into something coherent. Is that working? No. No.

[43:52]

Well, that's all right, because I'm not coherent. When you were talking about making a container, about talking about sexuality, the word that kept coming to mind was mutuality. Mutuality is a big part of making a container. Yeah, and I think, and a really big part of what, and then the more I thought about it, the more I was like, well, everything teaches you this, but I feel like sexuality does it in this really obvious way, that you have to be, so that generosity and benevolence has to be all around, you know. And that if you're just, if I was sitting here thinking, well, I'm just going to be benevolent to this other person in a sexual context, but not to me, eventually it breaks down you know yes and that there's something there's something so potent about sexuality that requires mutuality like that tango thing actually was such a good image like it you know there has to be this benefit sense coming from both sides constantly

[44:56]

Right. And again, I remember one of the, I think it was the first wedding ceremony I heard Suzuki Roshi do. He said something also that kind of surprised me at the time. He said something like, well, it's nice that you love each other. And I don't know what he meant by love, but anyway, he said, it's nice that you love each other, but most important is respect. Maybe he didn't say most important, but I think he did. Kind of shocked me. But I also then, oh yeah, I So there's some attraction between us. This is natural for things that are born, for them to be attracted, because they share that birthing quality. Maybe he didn't say most important, but I think he did. Kind of shocked me. But I also think, oh yeah. So there's some attraction between us.

[46:00]

This is natural for things that are born, for them to be attracted, because they share that birthing quality. But to respect each other, and also for me to respect you, but also for me to respect myself, and to let you know that... If I don't think it's obvious already that you do respect me, out of respect for myself, I have to tell you that I need you to respect me. I need you to respect me. And I think you need me to respect you. And I need you to tell me if I'm not being respectful. And you need me to tell you if I feel you're not being respectful. We need this from each other and this is part of building the container. Because sometimes you're talking to somebody and you don't know that they feel like you're not being respectful to them.

[47:06]

You don't know it. You think you're being loving or playful and they feel disrespected. And so you need them to tell you and you have to tell them that. It doesn't mean you're not going to love them, it just means the container has been violated by not respecting. And it seems like it really goes for celibacy too. It goes for celibacy how? Just this mutual, the potency of mutuality is true for celibacy too, which is... The potency of mutuality is true for celibacy too. Is that clear to everybody? Would you want to tell us how that's so, Sarah? So that it's just always been, it feels very clear to me that celibacy is also a sexual orientation, or sexual manifestation. Definitely.

[48:06]

And so that when you engage with other human beings, if you're a celibate person, you have the same responsibility of telling them, how do you respect me? How am I going to... I need you to tell me how you're going to respect me, how I can respect you and how you can respect me. Right. Is that clear? It's the same kind of engagement with all people. If you have the sexual orientation of celibacy, when you meet someone, for example, someone who's not practicing celibacy, if that person is in your container, and for a bodhisattva, everybody's in there, Not necessarily everybody built the container with you, but you need to gradually include everyone in it, I would say. And the way you do that is you express respect to people who aren't doing the same practice as you. And if you feel, and you try to get them, so if someone's going to be celibate here at Asahara, it would be good if they would talk to the people who aren't celibate and say, I respect you.

[49:07]

in your filthy sexual behavior. I really do. I'm just kidding. I think that the way you're doing it is really like sleazy. I think that your way is really just as good as mine for you. Yeah, I really do. Yes, I do. I do it for you. I really respect it for you that this is a good way for you. And I need you to respect the way I'm doing. I need you to respect this practice that I'm doing because it's going to be really hard for me to do this practice if I don't feel like you respect it. Can you respect and support me being celibate and I respect and support you being not celibate if that's the way you want to practice? Can we do that? And I think that's probably necessary. And I think that's probably the reason why celibate people have had trouble at Zen Center.

[50:09]

Part of the reason is that they haven't actually asked for the support that they need. They haven't said, you know, I need your support. Do you support me? And, I don't know, that might be a ceremony or some kind of ritual process we could go through so that they could, if someone wanted to do that. So sometimes they do it with their teacher. But again, they could say to your teacher, do you really respect me for doing this? Do I have your respect and support? And... And then also, do I respect and support those who are not doing this practice? So that's part of what you're talking about, right? You sure can. The new Sarah has come out. I also think, I was just thinking before, it's a little bit off the topic, but... Off the topic? Get back on the topic. It's on the topic. It's off the topic. It was just interesting to me that, so I'm one of these people who's somewhat more closely affected by you asking people to be celibate and rule than other people.

[51:18]

And when Charlie and I were getting involved, people came up to me with lots of opinions about that rule. Yes. It was very interesting. Yes, I bet. But I thought it was pretty interesting. I think it's very interesting and important to me that in Charlie resuming priest training, you actually didn't say to us, are you going to get married? When's the date? And somehow I feel like the concept of a lifetime commitment is maybe not as rigid as some people think. Right. So, did you hear what Sarah said? When I didn't say to, when Charlie resumed priest training, I didn't say, when are you going to get married? But the reason why I didn't do that was because I was already told that, you both sincerely told me you have a lifetime commitment to each other, that you already told me that. To me, That's a wedding ceremony when you tell me that. Now we can also do a ceremony someday maybe, but that statement coming from you too with that sincerity, I felt like that's what I need.

[52:26]

Anybody who's, anybody saw it but doesn't fool around with this stuff, if this person's important enough to enact this level of involvement with, then they're important enough to make this kind of commitment to take care of this thing that, this thing that's born when certain things happen. It needs care, just like a baby, you know. And so, yeah, that's why I didn't. But I basically do ask people to get married that I'm working with as bodhisattvas, if they want to do that. And, but it doesn't have to be, you know, city hall style wedding ceremony. It doesn't have to be that form. It doesn't even have to be regular traditional Zen center form. But it has to be sincere. And I felt like you and Charlie were really sincere about practice together.

[53:34]

So that was good enough for me. And still is. Congratulations. Congratulations. In talking about respect and the container, I want to come up for all women who have been sexually abused or have been raped. I wonder how big this container should be because in this oasis of a monastery we can talk about respect and then going out you see everywhere abusing of the female principle. So is there a question there?

[54:46]

What is the question? Actually, in feeling pain, how to develop respect? When you feel pain, how to develop respect? When feeling vulnerable, how to develop respect? When I feel vulnerable, I think I very naturally feel respect, but because I feel weak, I feel I can be hurt, so what can hurt me I have respect for, there's some respect there. This person can hurt me, I can be hurt by this person, there's some respect there. And then also to accept my vulnerability, to not fight it,

[55:52]

to say, OK, I am vulnerable. I accept it. This is part of what it means to be human, that I'm vulnerable to you. When I feel vulnerable, I feel gentle with myself and others. gentle also with disrespect when facing disrespect and facing the pain also then? I would say yes. Because, again, if I'm feeling vulnerable and then I feel disrespect or some cruelty coming towards me, if I tense up

[56:59]

and become defensive and start to fight that thing, then I'm losing track of my vulnerability. But if I continue to be aware of my vulnerability while I'm being attacked, it doesn't mean I just sit there and take it. It just means, I think it, not just means, I think it means that I will respond gently. But gently may be exactly the way that will protect both parties. But when feeling vulnerable and then actually being attacked, it's very difficult to stay balanced then and stay relaxed and then see what the relaxed body does. But this is martial arts. We're vulnerable. Somebody's coming. Now how do I relax with that and move with that in such a way that no one gets hurt and everyone's amazed at what can happen between two beings? So, and many, you know, that relaxation can take the form of saying, no, but the no is not a denial of vulnerability, it is a seeing that no is the right thing to say.

[58:16]

Like, no, hello, this is not going to work, we're not going to go this way. But it doesn't mean you're doing that to control, you're just informing the situation of what you see as reality. This is not appropriate. How is it possible to see reality as it is when actually the whole mind is soaked of old experience and of rememberings? How is it possible to see reality as it is when the mind is soaked with past experiences? Yeah, it's very difficult. So the mind which is soaked with past experiences is this born mind. Right? So now how do we relax with this born mind? In relaxing with it, which is studying it, things get clearer.

[59:18]

We see how it works. That's the proposal that this can happen, that we can come to understand all this conditioning by relaxing gently with the conditioning and experimenting with other people in talking about how to settle into an upright, balanced, flexible way with all these conditions. So again, It is a miracle that we can practice or that practice can happen. It's a miracle. It's a wonderful miracle that practice is available. So the practice is the response to the confusion of all the conditioning which settles with the conditioning and talks to others about how to settle with the conditioning and how they can help you and you can help them settle with the situation.

[60:19]

And you said the oasis of this place. This is a place where we're working on this. So, in fact, we need oases. Oasis is another word for container. We need oases. We need containers where we can develop the kinds of relationships that help us settle into our confusion. into our dynamic, impermanent, turbulent confusion. We need support in order to settle into this very dynamic situation of being born and dying all the time. And being vulnerable all the time. As soon as we're born, we're vulnerable. Then we die. Then we're vulnerable to birth. This is our life. It's very alive. But we need help to understand the practices which are here. But other people need help too. So we need to find some people who want to help us, who we want to help. And we make these containers. We make these agreements about how to support each other.

[61:20]

And then we also, as part of these agreements of how to support each other, we also make agreements about how to give feedback if the support isn't working. So we make these rules or these ceremonies, regulations, but then we also have to not attach to them. And we need to tell others that they can give you feedback on how you're presenting the forms, how you're practicing the forms which are supposed to help you deal with all this energy and help you deal with all your relationships and help them deal with you and all their relationships. So little by little we build this monastery container, you know, womb for making Buddha. And we use these forms to do it. And that's why we need formality to handle this tremendous dynamic life. And we need forms and we need other people to help us with the forms.

[62:25]

And other living people and we also need, I think we need tradition, people that have worked out It doesn't mean we do exactly the same thing as the tradition, but people have been working on this for a while, so we can use the tradition to give us some information about what might work. And again, there is a tradition which I've been bringing to you this practice period, and the main thrust of the tradition is... What? Do you know thrust? Do you know thrust? The main point of the tradition that I've been bringing about how to live together, the main point I've been making is what? Huh? Renunciation. Right. So that's the key ingredient in entering into this wisdom and compassion, of creating a situation where we can practice wisdom and compassion together, is renunciation. Renunciation.

[63:25]

which again means no grasping, no seeking, which again means that we don't say that something is not relevant to practice. We respect everything. Everything could be relevant. Now, we think this is not relevant, but we don't grasp that. You know relevant? The word relevant? In other words, we don't say anything is not appropriate to practice. So even someone who's attacking you when you're vulnerable, you don't say, this is not appropriate. You say, no, this is Buddhadharma coming. Now, how do I handle this attacker? Okay? How do I handle this? With flexibility, with, you know, skill. which comes from not saying, that's attacker, I must push away. Pushing away is one possibility. Another possibility is say, excuse me, I have a question for you. I have a whole bunch of American jokes about that, but you wouldn't get the English.

[64:32]

So, I guess I have two questions, and I'll ask the more embarrassing one first. And I guess I kind of apologize to the Sangha if this is too embarrassing. Excuse me, may I say something? Yeah. Is it all right if she asks a question she finds embarrassing? Is that okay with you? Okay, go ahead. They gave you permission. Thanks. So when I was listening to your advice to Eleanor about ways to practice with sexual energy, I guess I was wondering... It's hard for me because I think I have obviously I'm involved in a relationship and I've always never been very interested in celibacy and yet I feel like some of the questions that

[65:43]

are a big question for celibates are also just, also apply just how do you handle sexual energy. And so, like, for a Sashin, where you're going, like, we're all, like, I'm celibate for a Sashin, and so... Okay, I'm avoiding the question. Um... The advice about taking cold showers and exercising and things like that, it reminded me of a church pastor advising teenagers. Right. And there's this question of where does orgasms and self, like going back, like Suzuki Roshi told you to go back, not to go to anybody else's room. Yes. But he didn't tell you not to go back to your room. Right. You know, I just feel like there's something really compelling about sexuality and it seems like there's something really compelling for a lot of the priests who you've been training that, you know, are five years or I don't know how long you lasted, you know, in terms of how long Suzuki Roshi wanted you to be celibate.

[66:55]

I just feel like there's something being ignored and I guess I just wanted to say that and wondered how does that It's not something that I really want to be talked about, but I just felt like it's important. I'm not sure what the question is. I think I saw... Well, one thing I... I don't know if I was recommending taking cold showers and stuff. I'm just saying that those are possible ways of expressing yourself. Another way to express yourself, like I said, is sometimes say, I love you, or sing a song. There's many ways to express it. And so you're saying, what about expressing it What about taking care of sexual energy by expressing it in the form of orgasm? And I would, so... Are there Sashina admonitions against that? I don't think we've got one in there yet. And actually, I don't think that would be a good idea because I think it would be, to me, I don't see any problem with somebody having orgasm as long as they follow the schedule.

[68:06]

So like, you know, if your orgasms are on time, seems fine. One translation of the, there's three bodies of Buddha. One is the dharma body, the true body, the transformation body, and the orgasm body. So the part of the, it's also called the reward body. So it's, if we practice The forms, in the true way with no attachment, the part of the reward for that is like an orgasmic feeling, a feeling of tremendous joy and release and communion with the whole universe. And all the flowers and rivers and mountains and everything come flowing in and out of you through all your pores with unlimited joy. So orgasm is not a problem. It's not a problem.

[69:11]

But, now this gets into a big topic which I thought would be a separate topic, but I'll talk about it maybe again later as a sort of starting point of one of the next talks, later talks. And that is, the main thing again is that orgasm occur in the context of what? Let her say. in the context of practicing what? And that involves renunciation. So, orgasm is a reward for renunciation, actually. I mean, big-time orgasm is a reward for renunciation. It's a reward for not trying to get a reward. So, no grasping, no seeking. I'm proposing, which is sort of what started this talk in the beginning there in class the other day, that it is possible to have sexual relationships and have orgasm in the human form and have that be not grasping and seeking.

[70:25]

I propose that as possible for a human being. For that to occur in reality by all things coming forth and realizing orgasm. In other words, enlightened orgasm, enlightened sexuality, enlightened orgasm. But enlightened lunch also has no grasping or seeking. If there's grasping and seeking in lunch, it's a problem. If there's grasping and seeking in celibacy, it's a problem. If there's grasping and seeking around orgasm, it's a problem. That's my feeling. So the question is, what does it mean to have a body and to deal with this energy and this psychophysical energetic system, to deal with it in this way that contains it, that is not manipulative, that's not controlling, that's not picking and choosing, that's just thank you, [...] thank yourself into orgasm.

[71:32]

And I think it is possible to thank yourself into orgasm, sitting on this cushion. It happens to people. And it particularly happens when you say thank you to stuff that you don't usually say thank you to. Not thank you like picking and choosing, like thank you for the pleasure, thank you for the nice sitting. Thank you, thank you, thank you means thank you for whatever. It means not manipulating, not picking and choosing, not grasping, not seeking. This is a root path for human beings who have bodies orgasm. And the other kind of orgasm is orgasm that has outflows, that's tiring, that you regret, that you feel somewhat bad about, that you feel somewhat guilty about because you know that you kind of like engineered it. You took something which wasn't given. It wasn't given. Orgasm can be given rather than taken. So strictly speaking, Do we actually feel we're practicing the precept of taking what's given, of receiving what's given?

[72:41]

That goes with the kind, enlightening practice with sexuality. And that could manifest in the form of an orgasm. And it could happen sitting in this zendo during sesshin. And apparently, from what I understand, it has. I once, I think it was my first practice period at Green Gulch with you, and that some, maybe you told somebody else's story, but the story went around that you had heard that that had happened to someone inside the zendo. And at the time it was like great encouragement to sit for me, you know, like, oh, thank God, maybe that sounds okay. Maybe Zazen's okay, yeah. Maybe Zazen's okay. Maybe Zazen's all right after all. It's funny how embarrassing I thought this would be, and then it's not so embarrassing.

[73:44]

I'm just really red. Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you for the question. I really appreciate the question. I think a lot of people had that question. Hi. Hi. I have a question about building the container. Yes, building the container. Yes, and it's with respect to the phenomena of self and other. Yes. And phenomena of community, society. Yes. And my question is how much into the details, into the minutia, do we want to get? I mean, is it an ongoing process that never ends? So for example, you know, so we build... Can I just say something before you give the example? Okay. I would say, you get into the details to the extent that you feel like your commitment to the precept of telling the truth requires.

[74:47]

If you feel like avoiding a detail would be kind of a way to, you know, basically be deceptive or hide something, then that would probably indicate that you should bring it out. But some details you'd be willing to tell, and nobody particularly wants to know, so you don't have to. So I think you look to yourself whether you feel like you're trying to hide something. Then that might be something to consider. Not necessarily for sure bring it up, but that's something that you might consider a detail that might be good to say. Like, for example, excuses. I didn't mean to make this a big... interruption of your presentation, but one time a priest who I was training, who had been practicing a pretty long time, told me he wanted to start a relationship with somebody, and it was somebody who'd been practicing a long time, but he neglected to tell me that this person had a boyfriend.

[75:49]

So, but she did have a boyfriend, but he didn't tell me that. And if he had told me that, I would have said, hmm, that makes things more complicated. And then I might have asked him who the boyfriend was. And if he told me, I would have said, oh, did you know that that guy's been to prison several times and is a drug dealer and has lots of weapons? I would have told him that. I would have said, I don't think you should get involved with this person. She's a nice person, but because she's involved with him, it means there's going to be a problem. So anyway, he didn't tell me that, so I said, okay. He did get involved, and then he had to like, he and she had to like go and hide for months away from Zen Center because of this. And now this guy is in jail for Seven counts of rape and one of kidnapping in Florida. So anyway, that's a detail. This guy usually tells me more details than I usually need, but he overlooked this one. So that's one of the things about building a container.

[76:54]

You start thinking, did I overlook anything? Oh yeah, they're married and have three kids. So yeah, it is possible to overlook some details, and some details are really helpful. Excuse me. Thank you. Really? That took care of it? Okay, great. Well, it's quarter of 11. Maybe that's enough for today. Is it? All right.

[77:27]

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