I would propose to you, not state as a fact, but just as something for you to consider, something for you to consider, the following proposition, and that is that the historical Buddha was a sexual being. was a being who possessed a gender. And this being who appeared in history, equipped with gender, realized The emptiness of gender. Being realized the selflessness, the emptiness of sexuality.

[01:11]

And Then that leads me to consider, is it possible for other sexual beings to realize the selflessness of sexuality? And in a sense, as I mentioned before, I think part of my motivation for becoming was some sense that such a practice might help realize the selflessness of sexuality. So I also propose to you that sexuality can have a form, can have a feeling, can have impulses, can have consciousness, and sexuality can also have emptiness.

[02:24]

Again, proposing to you that the form and the feeling and the emotions of sexuality together with the emptiness of sexuality. Every sexual feeling is inseparable from the emptiness of that sexual feeling. Or another way to put it is, the conventional sexuality or the sexuality of the conventional world is inseparable from the ultimate sexuality of emptiness. They're not entirely the same, but you can never have one without the other. One you can see, feel, smell, and so on, the other you can't feel.

[03:36]

It's possible that practicing with the sexuality you do feel, you do see, you do sense, you do think about, you are aware of, that practicing with that in a certain way opens us to the the profound aspect of sexuality, which is always right there. Right in this springtime, there is the emptiness of springtime. So, the context, the way of practicing with conventional manifestation of sexuality that's been proposed over and over is to practice with it in a state of renunciation, which means, which can be expressed in many ways, but it means

[04:59]

There's no grasping or seeking in relationship to sexual feelings. There's no grasping or seeking in relation to sexual sensation. There's no grasping or seeking in relation to sexual ideas, to sexual awareness. And this way of being with sexuality is the key to the emptiness of sexuality and being freed even though being a sexual being understanding the selflessness of sexuality, practicing with sexuality selflessly. Such a practice is opened by letting go of sexuality. If I have temporarily adopted a policy of celibacy, although I don't usually say that, Tassajara, obviously, I don't know if it's obvious, but anyway, basically, there's been no sexual intercourse around me during this practice period.

[06:19]

It wasn't a big heavy policy on my part, but in fact Zen Center has a policy like that, that I'm not supposed to be having sexual intercourse with you people during this practice period. Or after. In case you... It's a Zen-centered policy. I don't so much think of it as a policy. It seems appropriate to me. That's what's been happening. So in a sense, I've been celibate. But whether or whether involved in some form of sexual intercourse, the point is that what's appearing to you doesn't distract you from stillness and silence. If you're celibate and if you're practicing celibacy and that practice is distracting you from stillness and silence,

[07:29]

This is not practicing celibacy in a state of renunciation. This is practicing celibacy in a state of grasping. ...way that you're relating to this, to the sexuality, in such a way as you're distracting yourself from stillness and silence. If in the midst of sexual intercourse, if that function, if that business distracts you from stillness and silence, distracts you from being alone, which means distraction, not somebody, there's no other, distracts you from understanding that there's no other. then the practice is not practiced in renunciation, and the door of selflessness is obscured.

[08:39]

And then there's loss of energy, outflows, and those outflows then make it even harder to not get distracted by events ...from silence and stillness, which is always accompanying, right there all around any activity we're involved in, there's always silence, stillness and aloneness there. I have faith that it is possible to look at a flower, to look at this beautiful valley, to look at these people, to look at the food, to feel sexual feelings, to have such experiences and not be distracted by them. But they don't really distract me.

[09:44]

It's my clinging to them that distracts me. That it's possible for words to appear and by listening to them in an ungrateful These words are not walls, they are doors to emptiness, to vast freedom. I don't find it too difficult to check in each moment Just check. Does the sound of the creek distract me from silence? Does the movement of the creek distract me from stillness?

[10:49]

Can I listen to that and still hear silence? I may not be able to be sure I hear the silence. But I can check. I can listen. I can look and see if I'm fixating on what I see, grasping what I see, and through that grasping blocking infinity, tightening, gripping around my experience and blocking, opening into the ultimate freedom. I can check. Again and again, I can check. Am I relaxed? And this, and this, and this, and this. And if I feel tense, I found something out. And then, can I relax with that tension?

[11:55]

Not grip that. And have that tension be another opportunity. The way. So we don't hate the self, the self of sounds, the self of sexuality. We relax with the self of sexuality, which is our great pain, great anxiety. So it also means we relax with this anxiety. which has a strong thread of sexuality running through it. Perhaps the most... We may be somewhat anxious of not getting fed, but our anxiety in terms of our sexual self is much greater.

[13:15]

But we don't hate this because we understand that the selflessness of this anxiety and the selflessness of this sexuality, the selflessness of all our concerns is right there. And if we flinch from the self, we remove ourselves from the way, which is right there. How can the imagination function in such a way?

[14:27]

How can we imagine a way to being with our imagination such that we don't grasp our imagination? Can we imagine a way to be with our imagination so that our imagination doesn't distract us from stillness and oneness. And someone said that bringing up this, bringing this issue of sexuality forward I don't know, less tranquil than last session for him.

[15:30]

But the approach that I'm recommending to the phenomena of sexuality, to the phenomena of creature, the way of relating to that is the same way of relating which is stabilizing and tranquilizing. So, it's the same practice, it's just that we've brought more forward for you to face. I say we, the whole planet has brought it forward as spring. gushing, gurgling, brilliant spring, challenging the practice to see if it can relax completely with this multitude of .

[16:39]

And so we feel challenged. But it's the same practice. And it's okay to be serene in the realm of sexuality. But I think some people feel like they're being disrespectful to feel alone when they're with their lover. But I'm proposing again that wholesome Beneficent sexuality means that you do not get distracted in the midst of sexuality from being alone. Of course, in the conventional world we are sometimes with others. Yes. Is there a way to be with others and not be distracted from the ultimate truth of all one?

[17:49]

that there is no other. It's not that there aren't others, it's just they aren't other. But I think sometimes we feel sorry. Here we are with this nice other, so we feel sorry to feel alone. I shouldn't feel that when I'm with you. If you knew, you'd probably feel highly insulted. You mean you don't think I'm other? You don't think I'm here? It's not that you're not. but you're not other, so I'm alone with you. No, don't say that, darling. Conventionally, I'm with you and you're other, don't worry. But ultimately, I'm always with you. And that's what really helps me take care of you. That's the place from which I really respect you. I'm vulnerable but innocent of you.

[19:02]

The more we give up the mind of grasping in meeting whatever, including sexuality, the closer we are to leaping over all distinctions. as much as possible not grasping the distinctions between ourself and others, the readiness becomes more and more realized. The calmness develops and it becomes more and more not my calmness, more and more is lost.

[20:25]

I'm losing my samadhi power. But the true samadhi, which is not mine, is becoming more and more realized the more I let go of my samadhi power. It's sad to lose it. It's nice to have it. But it's an obstruction. My samadhi power. So we let go of that too, and then there's more samadhi. And we let go of that too, and then there's more samadhi. More tranquility. We let go of that and then there's more tranquility and more feeling and getting closer and closer to all beings leaping into this wonderful world where nobody's in control and everybody's helping everybody be free of what we are in the conventional world without touching anything or manipulating anything.

[21:44]

through deep respect and appreciation of the conventional world. Many more or less entertaining comments could be made, but I will stop now for a moment. If there's anything you'd like to bring up, you're welcome. You seem very calm today.

[22:50]

Is this working? There we go. Yeah. I seem calm? Yeah. So I have two questions. Is it okay if I ask two? Is it okay if he asks two? Yeah. Yeah. Ask one and then check. Okay. I don't think I'm going to ask it any better than Jerome did, but maybe I'll ask it in a more abstract way. There's a certain... Sort of classically, the idea is that love is blind. There's a blindness... that goes along with a certain kind of erotic love, anyway. And... So I'm curious, how does one stay awake and seeing if love is blind?

[23:58]

There's actually two varieties of love. There's blind love and non-blind love. And so... Tell me about blind love. Well, I'll use a different word. Anyway, you said, how do you stay awake when in love? Yeah. So I said, check. There you are, there's some feeling arising, some emotion arising, some sensation arising, something's arising, there's some sense. it has something to do maybe with some object. So there you are, having these feelings. Now, is there a way to relate to these feelings and at the same time feel stillness? Time. Hear silence.

[25:02]

At the same time that there is this rushing you know, thunderous experience. Frenzy. Frenzy. Can you simultaneously hear the silence? And that brings me... And the way to do that is don't grasp the frenzy. Relax with the frenzy. Just be the frenzy. Just be the frenzy. Yeah. Because... I'll take it back, Dave. You know, in my personal experience, I've tried an experiment more than once, actually, of trying to not be frenzied about sex with people. Frenzied, that would... And it's boring. That wouldn't be it. It's boring. It's boring. Yeah. Yeah. I lose interest. Yeah. Well, sometimes people find frenzy boring, too. Well, I usually don't have sex with those people. But just being frenzy, not trying to not be frenzy. Try that.

[26:03]

Can you say that again? Just being frenzy. You said it, right? Just being frenzy. Just be the frenzy. Just let the frenzy be you is the same as just let the path be you. Attention to the frenzy and not in a relaxed flexible, you know gentle Attention to the frenzy and that requires being feeling Acknowledging the vulnerability to the frenzy it it's a real full presence It's trusting present with frenzy or the presence of frenzy presence Is great sex And if it's not frenzy, if it's like totally serene, presence with that is also great, selfless, beneficent sex. But there has to be this presence which hears the silence right with the screaming, which feels the stillness right with the movement,

[27:19]

This is the great art of meditation. And it's not boring. It's not boring, but as you approach it, if you're not in that state, boredom may come up and say, you have more interesting things to do than this kid. But when you're in it, the slightest deviation can become terrifying, but not boring. When you're in it, actually, without veering at all, it's not terrifying. But vast emptiness is all around it. Death is all around it. So it's very intense, very hard for us to be that balanced. But I'm actually recommending that way of being with this human phenomena. I got to say, sometimes, though, I want that kind of frenzy. I want it to just completely destroy me. Is it destroying me or is it destroying my ego? And what is the reason for it to destroy?

[28:27]

I think it has the potential not to destroy the ego, but for the death of the ego. The death of the ego can happen. And I think relaxing with the death of the ego is part of this process. Trying to make the ego die is an ego trip, but opening to the death of the ego, which can happen when we listen to silence and stillness and aloneness. Opening with that. I think that's another way to put it. Another form of expression of renunciation. Can I ask my second question now? Browsing yes for that. No, they want you to.

[29:27]

A couple days ago you mentioned that you were having sex at Page Street. And I'm curious, in the early 70s... Actually, I did it on Laguna. I'm curious, in the early 70s, were there a lot of people having sex at Page Street? I don't know. I heard rumors. You were the director then, weren't you? Right. Because I'm curious, do you think that it's... More or less? Yeah, do you think people are more responsible now? Let's see. I think it's different. I think it's different, but I don't actually know the... Well, in the 70s and in the 60s, there were a lot more drugs being taken at Zen Center than now. And the policies are much clearer. So, like, I heard recently that somebody at Green Gulch was smoking marijuana and they asked him to leave the practice period.

[30:32]

But in those days, you know, things were wilder. Even in the late 60s, things were... We did a survey one time at the beginning of a practice period. We asked people, how many people have taken LSD? And 100% of the Caucasian males had taken LSD. During the practice period? No, no, no. Actually, I don't think any of them took it during the practice period as far as I know. But they might have if it had been available, but this was, although it was a wild time, we weren't technologically advanced. But 100%, so people, I was part of the culture at that time, and now it seems to be much less. And I think people are, I don't know if the word responsible is quite the right word, but I think people are more aware

[31:38]

Another thing I would say, this is a big digression, but when Zen Center started, it was one thing, and then Tassajara was another, but it was the 60s, right? It was supposedly this is the sexual revolution time, right? So things were different, and there were more drugs, a lot more. After Tassajara opened, one of the students of Tassajara raped a guest. in the narrows. Zen Center was almost... Tazahara was almost eliminated by one of the students raping somebody. This is something that happened here. So Zen Center has had some very dangerous thing happen around sex over the years. And I wouldn't say that it's over because every spring... a new thing happens.

[32:43]

But I think it is different now because we've had experience, we have more experience of how powerful It is and how disturbing it can be to the community. We've seen people get together without sufficient support and then split up and totally hate each other right in the middle of the community and then start other relationships and other people get involved in it. We've seen major traumas happen around this issue, which in the 60s when we first started we thought, oh, sex, whatever, you know, man, people can handle this. We didn't know how, we were really not aware of how powerful force this is. And in community, you don't get away from it. In Berkeley or someplace like that, you get together with somebody and then you break up with them and you just don't go to the same coffee shop and it seems like there's no karmic effects. But in the same community, we learned that it's very powerful. So now I think we're just much more careful

[33:45]

and people understand quite a bit better, except that it takes at least a little while to get the idea. That's why we leave new students alone, because they don't get it when they first come. So there is a difference. And it isn't exactly that there's more or less, but I think there's more care around our sexuality, more honesty around it than there was before. One final question in this vein. And please, I hope I'm going the wrong way, but there has been a curiosity that I've had. I'm curious if Richard Baker, do you think, is the only practice leader that had sex with his students in the history of Zen Center? I only ask because I'm curious if he's an aberration. I mean, should we see him as an aberration or was he just part of the spirit of his times?

[34:52]

I guess what I would say is that there is a policy in that manual that says we consider to be an abuse of sexuality. It says in that manual, an abuse of sexuality. It doesn't say sexual greed, but you could say, we consider it to be sexual greed. If people of different, what do you call it, of different, there's a power differential between them. We consider that an abuse. So a teacher and a student would be an example, or like the president of Zen Center and a guest student or something like that. Some big difference in the power in the community. This is not appropriate for these people to get together in Zen Center. The reason why we have those is because people might do that. So even though I can't necessarily say, yes, there are other examples necessarily, I can say we have that policy because it could happen.

[35:59]

And before that, we did not have that policy exactly. Richard Baker said that that should be the case. But it was not like a clear Zen Center policy that teachers do not get involved with students. And also, now we have all these different layers of teachers. You know, what level of teacher? You know, like... And then what's the power differential? Like, can a tanto and a tanto? Is that okay? Can an eno and an eno? But not a tanto and an eno? You know? how close do they have to be? And actually, at one of the, if we have these meetings, these Abbott's group meets, and I asked at one of the meetings, I said, well, now, I just want to understand now, would it be possible if Mel's wife and my wife said, would it be okay if Mel and I had some kind of relationship?

[37:04]

You know, because, you know, there's not such a big power differential there. We have a similar seniority and, you know, people would, you know, would there be any abuse? So, you know, we could consider, like people say, well, I don't know, it seems a little bit off. I think you're a little bit stronger than him or, you know. But would that be conceivable? And I think those meetings are confidential, but I think I can test. I think I can tell you what I said. I did bring that up. And we didn't come to a clear conclusion about whether, in theory, it would be all right for Mel and I to have some kind of, you know, sexual intercourse. But I don't know what they thought of it, because theoretically, wouldn't that be okay if we're not celibate? If, you know, and so wouldn't it? I mean, so anyway, I asked, but I'm not saying, but I will say that one of them said, please don't make me do this.

[38:14]

I don't want to do this. I was pairing that person up with somebody else. I don't want to. So anyway. I don't want to single out anybody and say, that's the only case. I think everybody is challenged by this. And in some cases, teachers are really challenged because sometimes people really love the teachers. And the teachers are very susceptible and vulnerable to the devotion and love that they sometimes receive from students. And it's very difficult for them sometimes not grasp that, and to understand, you know, this is not mine, you know, this is not my student, this is not, this love isn't mine, this isn't, so we have a rule there to say, now if you, you've got to be careful here because these beautiful young students who are going to be devoted to you, I don't want to point out him as an aberration, I think all the teachers would eventually be challenged to

[39:29]

by something like that. And I think it's just, I think the Buddha probably was challenged. I would even say Suzuki Roshi, I don't know how challenged he was, but I remember I was told of a story by his wife that one time at Sokoji, our old Japanese temple, he would lock the temple that night And one night a woman hid and he locked the temple and she was locked in there with him. And anyway, nothing happened but it was really hard on him to find her and then find a way to get her out of the building. But again, if his wife said, if he had not been able to do that, probably Zen Center wouldn't be here now. But he was able to do it, you know, and without hurting her in any way, as far as I know.

[40:37]

But it was very hard on him, because I think the way he set limits with Japanese people was different messages in different ways. Americans don't get the same messages. So the way he was warm with people and clear what was and wasn't appropriate from his point of view, that didn't necessarily get across to American students sometimes. They didn't get the message. So then they would come maybe too close. So then I think he was forced into this very painful position of having to put up a message which wasn't, but which Americans would get, which is a little bit more hard, maybe, and I think hurt him to do that. But even he, I think, was struggling with, you know, how do you, Be warm and loving and set what's appropriate.

[41:41]

How do you offer your interpretation? And so Suzuki Roshi, our founder, had difficulties around this. He didn't slip into anything that anybody had any problem with. He was stressed by it. So other people slipped one way or another, a little bit more or less, or a lot. But I think everybody who has been exposed to this kind of love, this kind of attraction, this kind of adoration, is challenged by it. And the question is, do you meet the challenge with non-acquisitiveness, with relaxation, with non-grasping? If you do, I think everybody's happy, it's lovely, you can still be warm. but it's a challenge. So I don't want to point at anybody and say this person was really... I think if given our present level of awareness certain things wouldn't happen anymore.

[42:47]

But in those days it was really hard for people to know what to do. And so it was nice to be young because behavior if you were old would be considered really bad. So if what I did when I was 26 was what I was doing now, it would be a big problem. And so I've had 30-some years to find my way. And I think, you know... you know, sort of, I don't know, maybe this is not quite right to say, but just sort of have some pity for Richard Baker being made abbot of Zen Center at 35. Really, pretty much for a young man to be like put in the middle of the situation with all this, all this adoration and respect coming, and then like, he hadn't been trained very long, just got back from Japan and

[43:58]

It would have been nice if she could have trained him for 10 years before he was exposed to such a situation. But... And in my case, if he hadn't gotten that kind of feedback, he can do various things too. But I kind of saw the horror of it, so that really helped me be very careful. Thank you. You're welcome. You can stand up. Okay. I have a question regarding something you talked about yesterday. About the subjective experience of relationship.

[45:03]

Yes. And I didn't really get this idea. I mean, maybe I just didn't hear it correctly. But she said something like if she was feeling fear about standing. And then if she should say that. And you said something like we should let go of it first. I thought it was in the expression of that feeling or that letting go would happen. It's possible that you feel something and then you express it, and then as you express it, there's a release. Then you could express it, I would say, if you wished, more skillfully. But if possible, I would say, in other words, let go now, even before, let go now.

[46:04]

Don't let go later. But if you can't let go now, let go later. So you don't want to let go now, you want to let go later. Fine. You can be the later school. I'll be the now school. I guess I just don't... I mean, if it's how you're feeling, then wouldn't you just want to... I mean, if it wasn't a harmful thing to say, wouldn't you want to... I guess maybe I'm not understanding letting go. Well, you truncated your statement. You said, wouldn't you want to... Say that. You might or you might not. So you don't necessarily want to say everything you're feeling. That's true. But what I'm saying is that a lot of people, they are feeling something and they do want to say it, but they can't because they're holding on to it. Or they do, but it doesn't come out right because they're clinging to it. They're too tense. You shouldn't express yourself. I just say, first, it would be better if you could let go right now. Then if you wish to express yourself, you express yourself more skillfully, more at ease, more accurately.

[47:12]

But I don't mean to then set that up as a prohibition against expressing yourself. If you want to express yourself, go ahead. But if you're asking me if you should, I would say, well, if you're asking me if you should, since you're asking me if you should, I guess you're not too comfortable with it. If I said what? If somebody asked me, should I do such and such, then I would say they're already like hung up on it. So if they're hung up, I would say, well, let go. Because some things maybe you shouldn't do. But if you're holding on to them, it's kind of hard for you to tell whether you should do it or not. Now, I'm not saying you definitely shouldn't just because you're holding to it. But I'm basically saying if you'd like to know what it's like for something to happen, you need to feel really good about it. Let go of it. And then if it happens, you'll feel much better. Because you won't be like in this position of thinking you did it all by your own self. Did what?

[48:17]

Did what? Did the expression. If you express yourself, I'm not going to say, you know, you should let go of that before you did it. But if you ask me if you should express yourself, I'd say, well, why don't you just let go and then see what you do. If you have some doubt, if you're like deliberating and trying to use your brain to figure out what to do, I would say, let go. I mean, I do say, let go. And then if you let go, maybe you say, great. And you don't have to do anything. You just feel fine. Or you might say, oh, great. Now I have something to say. And then it comes out. Welcome. So I don't have a really well-formed question here.

[49:43]

So I need a little help on this. But these are... this is the idea that's kind of moving around in my head and it's about the word power comes in a lot and words around that like power, control potency, impotency feeling empowered or victim those kinds of words And then, so other concepts in there are personal and selfless. So I feel like when we're talking about this sexuality... or gender it's it it's it like for me the bigger topic is about power and greed is about getting more power and having power over and so i wonder if it's kind of and then having this spring you know the springtime the sort of sexual energy it's like you feel oh can feel overpowered by it or

[50:50]

Maybe surrender is in there. So it feels like maybe we're thinking about it in that kind of a way. It seems like it has some function in there. In some sense, it's not like we have the power over our sexuality or our sexual energy coming up. We kind of surrender but not give in to. Mm-hmm. There's very similar, I think... Except that you can feel like a victim in that. So then... Well, you know, I think surrender can be used as a synonym for renunciation. But, I mean, it is a synonym for renunciation. But to practice renunciation and feel like a victim is not what we mean by renunciation. So like, yeah, to give up things and feel like you were a victim of that process, that wouldn't be renunciation.

[51:54]

Renunciation would be that you joyfully give something up. The power of springtime before it's taken from you. So it seems like... Maybe the instinct or innately or culturally drive to power or gaining power or having power or control over. It's almost like there's an instinct. Instinct is like there's this basic adaptation of grasping. So one of our instincts or one of our basic adaptations to life is grasp things. We have that ability to do that. So, if there's some power, there's some impulse to grasp it. Maybe like what I'm thinking now is there's some power in understanding surrender or giving overpower or realizing it's impersonal.

[52:58]

Yeah, there's power all over. There's power in the river. There's power in surrender. There's power in renunciation. All these things have function, have power. The key is The key to freedom is don't grasp this powerful process. Let it go. I'm losing my power. Can I joyfully lose my power? My poor power, it's going, it's waning. It's springtime and I feel nothing. That's funny. But me, I joyfully let go of it. You're in charge. No, I'm not. But letting go in a joyful way seems to be the way.

[53:59]

And I don't feel like a victim of my power loss, my power shortage. California is always the most advanced spiritual place. And we're the first state to have power loss, power weak, power... We're losing our power. Soon all the other states will be following us, setting the trend. Okay, maybe that's enough to chew on. Thank you. Maybe I lost my power, too, to some extent, because I don't...

[55:09]

I remember so well these funny movements, sexual movements. So, almost I forgot them. So, maybe that listening to you, it's transformed into something else. Energy is here. Still, I want to change the topic. Yesterday, I felt the severe pain. In one moment, I recognized that the criminals, the people who are in jail or out of jail, are people that had suffered a lot. And the crime that they did is a result of their suffering.

[56:17]

Remember last year in Salinas in Monterrey, I saw postures with a baby crawling in a jail. And it was written in 50, 50% of the babies which are born now will get sentenced or will be in the jail. So it means that there is some in the future serious that the number of the crimes will increase. My question is, what is the policy in Buddhist or the people who had some influence on the society like you and other so many teachers here?

[57:29]

that can provoke discussion or to make some program included in school or in the high school that this high percent, maybe it means maybe 50,000 or 10,000 people involved in crimes Do you understand me? What can be done or do you make some program that you offer to the institution connected with the education? And so sometimes the people go to the prisons.

[58:53]

So they go there and interact with the prisoners and the people who run the prisons. And sometimes people go to jails and interact with the people in jails. People who work there. the teachers and the consuls and sometimes we work with the in-laws. We do these kinds of things. And our policy is renunciation, wisdom and compassion. That's the way we relate to the situation. That can take many forms. But I mean connection with some institution like government, like department of this country. I don't know of any particular Buddhist policy towards government about this. But I only know of the way we teach people in Zen centers.

[59:59]

The way individuals and people go to go to prisons and also make various kinds of vigils and around the time of executions and so on, you do those things. And these are some things that I know actually we do. Here is very popular the posture with Superman. The Superman is shown in movies, in thrillers, in novels and so on and so on. And I think it's time to create another image. The image of divine Superman. I don't want to tell him Buddha, but it's time to create for the whole society another posture with such kind of image.

[61:07]

And now is the question, and don't accept, please, like provocative, but I'm very, very curious. it was 1997, in city center on the board there was a piece of newspaper, or interview with Dalai Lama in Los Angeles. And Dalai Lama answer to a specific question, that homosexuality and onanism is not good for the people. Yes, and onanism... No, no, no. Masturbation. And homosexuality is not good for, especially for monks.

[62:15]

Yes. Something the day before yesterday about this yogi's practice and celibacy, but have you any, can you say something more about this? I like your understanding that everything is okay, but the most important is to shift, to renounce, not to grasp the thing. I am curious about the position of Dalai Lama. Of course you are not Dalai Lama and can't say something, but what is your presumption? Can you switch the mics?

[63:17]

This one doesn't have batteries. I don't think I can speak for the Dalai Lama out of context. I can't say for him. I'm sorry. And like I said, the more I think about it, it's nice that I'm not. Should I give this to her? Is that the deal? Yeah, right. Come here, please. I'll give this to you. Should I stand next to you?

[64:23]

Backward. Well, I've been thinking that we've been paying homage to Aphrodite this week. Mighty Aphrodite. Mighty Aphrodite. And thinking about the myths of Psyche and the tasks that Aphrodite gave to Psyche. Aphrodite was a jealous goddess. But the tasks that she set for Psyche were very interesting to me. In order to be rejoined with her lover, Eros, Aphrodite set four tasks for Psyche. And this week I've been thinking about them a lot.

[65:26]

The first one was sorting the seeds. And in this task, there was a heap of all different kinds of seeds, and she had to sort them into the different kinds. And she didn't know how she would do this, but ants came to her aid. So this unseen support, unbidden support, and she sorted the seeds. The second one was gathering the golden fleece. And a green reed came and whispered to her. A green reed whispered to wait until the rams were asleep so she wouldn't get killed gathering the fleece. And the third task was filling a crystal flask with water from a forbidden stream, or a forbidding stream, a dangerous place.

[66:49]

And in this, she was given aid by an eagle who could see far. In the fourth task, she had to go down to the underworld and give something to Persephone. And on the way, she would meet pathetic people asking for help. And she'd have to say no. You'd have to remain in the underworld forever. And in this, she was given help by a far-seeing tower. So I've been thinking that all of these tasks are like a practice here. the task of sorting the seeds is like discrimination and concentration.

[67:56]

The task of gathering the fleece like skillful means. And the task of gathering the water is like response and the task of going to the underworld is like dying to the self and being born again the new life every moment and I was especially moved to think that in all of these tasks, she had support from rocks and the trees and the walls and the pebbles.

[68:57]

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