Perhaps it might be good to begin with like a little summary or, yeah. So I proposed to you that whatever form of sexual phenomena that appears however sexual phenomena might arise, meets it with complete relaxation. so that the most beneficent and liberating and enlightening response may arise.

[01:10]

However sexual violence may arise, the bodhisattva vows to meet it, not to run away, not to try to destroy it, not to try to control it, but to meet it with an open heart, welcoming it no matter how it appears. Welcome. So that the most and liberation and enlightenment may be realized. This is how bodhisattvas finally can be and it's how bodhisattvas vow to be. Today we may not be able to every single manifestation of sexuality with complete relaxation, but we can vow to do so.

[02:28]

for this great benefit. So all practice period we've been talking and practicing about renunciation, the practice of renunciation, the practice of no mind, this practice of welcoming whatever comes, and now we're applying it to the very challenging topic of sexual phenomena. But of course the same bodhisattva's have evolved to meet any phenomena in the same way, for the same reason. The benefit, the greatest benefit for all beings, the greatest happiness for all beings, So when it comes to a particular situation, some people might think, oh, okay, well, here's a sexual phenomenon now.

[03:31]

Okay, so now, let's relax now and let what is beneficial to come forth. Not just that person and this person, but everyone. And then some people might say, wait a minute, that's too high a standard. If they think it's okay and I think it's okay, that's enough. Think about... We don't have to think about everybody else. We don't have to think about their husband and their wife. My husband and my wife. Just between us, right? No. For bodhisattvas, everybody's included. Not everybody's in the room, maybe. In the hot tub. But everybody's included in your heart, really.

[04:36]

You think now, okay, what would my wife think? What would my children think? What would my mommy think? What would my daddy think? What would my uncle think? How would they feel? Would they feel like included right now? Maybe we should call them up. Hello, guess what? What do you think? This is right for some people. They think, wait a minute, if I did that, I wouldn't, I don't know, would I ever have any opportunities if I did that? And the answer is, yes, you would. Everything would be an opportunity. Now, certain things might not happen, but other things would. good things would happen. Everyone would appreciate that you're practicing with them and always thinking of them, never forgetting them. Everything you do, not just in the realm of sex, but even in the realm of shopping.

[05:56]

When you shop, you think, now, what is the real thing? Would my lover and my mother approve of this purchase? Would this make them happy? My wife has much more fun shopping when I'm not with her. Much simpler. She kind of forgets about me. But then when she gets home, she always has a deal with the store to be able to return it. And she comes home after she's got it. She sees how she really feels about it, and then she remembers she's married to me. And all of a sudden, the whole picture comes into... And she returns almost everything she gets. But I've learned, you know, almost whatever she shows me, I say, oh, that's great.

[07:04]

That's great. If I don't like it, it makes it more confusing for her. And if I'm really accepting, then she can think, now, do I really want this? This is really best for all beings. And she does return a lot of stuff. But she likes to go and bring it home and, like, see how she feels about it. I hope that wasn't too intimate. There's this term, you know, which you may have heard, it's called the kamadhatu. Pali term, it could be translated as the realm of sensual desire, or the realm of sensual pleasure, or the realm of pleasureful objects.

[08:17]

It seems like comma means that sensual desire, sensual pleasure, and also the objects, the pleasant objects. That's the name that the Buddhists use for the ordinary world we live in. That's where Buddhas practice. One time, Ru Jing said to Dogen that although the zazen and Pratyekabuddhas actually transcends attachment. It lacks in all-embracing compassion. Therefore, it is not identical with the zazen of the Buddha ancestors. Where was I?

[10:56]

The zazen of the Buddha ancestors, right, always considers great compassion first, whereby they save all sentient beings. The listeners, the sravakas, also have zazen, but their compassion is somewhat limited. Their self-profiting wisdom does not necessarily allow them to penetrate to the ultimate marks of all existent phenomena. They only improve themselves in such a way that they crush the seeds of Buddhahood. Or another way I could say that would be the self-improving approach to meditation crushes the seeds of Buddhahood. In their zazen, the Buddha ancestors wished to gather the entire Buddhadharma.

[12:09]

Thus sentient beings are never forgotten or abandoned. Their compassion and thought is always with them, even to insects. I guess they used to have really bad insects, because for us insects aren't so hard, but I guess they are pretty hard sometimes. Anyway, even to the most challenging forms of life. They transfer their merit and virtue to the salvation of all sentient beings. And I just might parenthetically note that the way that they transfer their merit to the salvation of all beings is what we call the process of inconceivable liberation, or how we're inconceivably helped in our practice.

[13:16]

The liberation process. For this reason, Buddha ancestors always sit and pursue the way in the realm of sensual desire, sensual pleasure. They cultivate all virtues and attain meekness of mind or subtle mind or flexible mind in order to save all sentient beings. And then, what is this? Can you hear me okay, Sala? Dogen says, what is this meekness of mind or this suppleness of mind or subtleness of mind? And Ruo Zheng said, it's the, well, one translation is, it's the will or the intention or the will to drop off body and mind

[14:22]

This willingness for body and mind to drop off is what is developed when we sit in the world of sensual desire. Suppleness of mind is the Buddha mind mudra, the Buddha mind seal. It's the mind mudra of all Buddhas. So this suppleness of mind is the same as that Buddha mind seal that's put on our three activities by which the entire universe is enlightened. So the meekness of mind is self-fulfilling samadhi again. If we are formally practicing celibacy, informally practicing celibacy, not practicing celibacy, whatever experiment we're trying in this life, the important thing is that we meet whatever happens with this no-mind so that this body-mind drops off.

[15:56]

...response can come forth. And I said this again before to reiterate Sexual phenomena appear in many ways. So we can actually speak of five categories, the five aggregates, the five skandhas. Sexual phenomena appear through the five skandhas. So there's sexual feelings of pleasure and pain. There's sexual ideas, sexual... There's sexual awareness.

[17:04]

There's sexual forms, like sexual smells, tastes, touches, sounds. And one more. Hmm? Huh? I didn't say sight? Yeah, sexual sights. Pleasureful sights. Sights that electrify sexual intensity and drive bodies into action. I've heard of some amazing experiments done on turkeys.

[18:23]

If you make a certain shape with a certain color and hang it by a string in front of a male turkey, it has something to do with a female turkey, but it's not just like a male turkey. just a certain, just a certain aspects of the female turkey, certain colors of her head and neck, certain shapes of her neck. And you just show those shapes to the male turkey and he will like try to do various things with this hair. It is like, if you imagine yourself being a turkey, a male turkey, you would be very embarrassed by what What would happen? But this is what happens. You have these sights, you know, and you set these sights off. It's triggered. So they come in these forms, but in one way, the skanda, the aggregator,

[19:40]

The mental formation is one, and that's in some ways the trickiest one, because that's where all these dispositions are categorized. Preferences, judgments, evaluations of right and wrong, all those things too involve with sexuality. So they come too. Those are the, I mean, well, they're all difficult. But those are really knotted. In some ways, when that smell comes, it's just like, just, you know. There are sexual smells, you know. They're called pheromones. And when they touch your nose, you're, you know, something happens just deep down in that old brain. Something starts... powerful but it's simple in a way but these the formation skanda is very complex all these twisted mind ruts around all these preferences effects of past actions

[21:02]

So it's coming to us in several dimensions of sense, several dimensions of feeling, infinite dimensions of ideas, many, many twisted, complex, tied-up formations, and through various kinds of consciousness, all these different presentations of sexuality is coming at us all day long. And so what's a yogi to do? Well, relax. Try to relax. And say, welcome. Welcome, good friend. Welcome. Bodhisattva does not abandon any being, any phenomena in this world. So whatever comes, they do not reject it. They embrace and sustain all phenomena.

[22:05]

all beings, even their own mind. What a wonderful way to be, huh? The bodhisattva. Really welcoming everybody that comes. And then the appropriate response can arise. It may not look too welcoming. So you have those Zen stories where the teacher says, Get out! You know. That's the appropriate response sometimes. Get out! But this comes from complete relaxation. Or whatever. Are you turkey? But first, first, welcome.

[23:11]

I mean, really welcome. I mean, come on. Thank you for coming, life. And then, something comes. Now you don't make it come up. You relax. You get out of the way. And the big thing comes. The right, the good, the helpful. Which doesn't look like necessarily what anybody would think is right or good or helpful. over the censor who's trying to figure out what's right. When you really say you're welcome and really let go, then there's room for this wonderful, wonderful thing, enlightening response to come. Thus, Zen stories. Very surprising things come out of these guys and gals, these men and women. But they don't come from these people trying to figure out what to do.

[24:17]

They come from these people letting go of the one who's trying to figure out what to do. Letting that one relax. Why don't you go have some lemonade, sweetheart? And then, while she's relaxed and having her lemonade, the response comes, the wonderful response. The wonderful response. Now, you know, I don't want to press this case too strongly, but I was thinking, you know, about Shakyamuni Buddha, and he doesn't have a, he's not famous, but he's sexy. At least not in the West. Although, I must mention to you, I don't have to, but I'm going to, mentioned to you that in describing the Buddha, they do point out sometimes that the Buddha was actually a person from top to bottom and in between two.

[25:26]

So they actually make a point to let you know that he's just like the rest of us, you know. I think would be described as, you know, having all the normal stuff. In other words, having the sex stuff. The Buddha comes into human form as a fully human thing. Not sort of like, what do you call it, a little missing thing. But still, they don't usually describe him as being kind of sexy. Most of the sutras don't sound, people don't see them as sexy. But I have this, one of my favorite sutras, which is not too well known, but some of you have heard me talk about it before. I won't call it sexy, but it certainly is very, very intimate and loving to me. It seems that way.

[26:27]

Not greedy, no greed, but I feel, you know, the warmth of human love and human sexuality functioning in this very sweet way. So the story goes something like this. Thus I have heard. One occasion the Blessed One was wandering in the Magadan countryside and eventually arrived at Rajagaha. There he went to the potter, Bhagava, and said to him, I just want to mention that the Buddha is wandering by himself. He sometimes went off in strolls without Ananda. This is one of those times, I don't know what led to this particular solitary, but he was by himself.

[27:41]

So he went to this potter and said, if it's not inconvenient for you, bhagava, bhagava I should say, may I stay one night in your workshop, in your potter's workshop? And the potter said, it is not inconvenient for me, venerable sir. He can tell it's a monk, but he doesn't know it's the Buddha. But there is a homeless one already staying here. If he agrees, then stay as long as you like, venerable sir. Now there was a clansman named Pukasati. Pukasati, who had gone forth from the home life into home life out of faith in the Buddha. This guy had left home, he heard about the Buddha, and he left home to practice the way that he heard the Buddha was teaching.

[28:55]

And on that occasion, he was already staying in the potter's workshop. Then the Blessed One went to Venerable Phukasati and said to him, by the way, you know what venerable means? The root of venerable? Venus. Venus. The venerable means lovable. Aphrodite-able. And so he comes and says, lovable one, convenient for you, monk, may I stay one night in the workshop? And Pukasati said, the potter's workshop is large enough, friend. Actually, he says, this word friend he uses is kind of like, it's large enough, pal. Or, you know, sure buddy, you can stay here.

[30:03]

Let the lovable one stay here as long as he would like. So then the Buddha entered the potter's workshop and prepared and spread out some grass at one end of the shop and sat down, folding his legs, sitting with body erect, established in mindfulness. The Blessed One spent most of the night in meditation, and the Phukasati also spent most of the night in meditation. Then the Blessed One thought, this Klansman conducts himself in such a way that inspires confidence.

[31:13]

I felt inspired and encouraged by this person. Suppose I were to question him. So the Buddhist says, under whom, monk, who is your teacher? Whose teaching do you profess? And Pukasati said, friend, there is a recluse named Gautama, the Buddha, the son of the Shakyamuni, who went forth from the Shakyamuni clan. Now, A good report of that blessed one has been spread to this effect, that the blessed one is accomplished, fully enlightened, perfect in knowledge. And fourth, under this blessed one, that blessed one is my teacher.

[32:25]

I profess the teaching of that blessed one. And then the Buddha says to Pukasati, but monk, where is that accomplished one, that fully enlightened one now living? Where is he? Where is your teacher? Is this sexy or what? Is this intimate? Is this sweet? Of course, this never really happened. And then Pukasati says, there is, friend, a city in the northern country named Savatthi. The Blessed One, the Accomplished One, the fully enlightened, is now living there.

[33:28]

And then the Buddha says, but monk, have you ever seen the Blessed One? before? Would you recognize him if you saw him? And Pugasati said, no, friend, no, pal, I wouldn't recognize him. I have never seen the Blessed One before, nor would I recognize him if I saw him. The sutra says, then the Blessed One thought, this clansman has gone forth from the home life into the homeless life under me. And I might put in parentheses, and he tells the truth. Suppose I were to teach him Dharma. Since he's my student, maybe he'd like to hear a little straight, you know.

[34:34]

So the Blessed One addressed the venerable monk, monk, if you like, I will teach you Dharma. Listen and attend closely to what I say. And Pukasati said, sure, pal, lay it on. the Blessed One said thus. And maybe some other time I could do that next part of the sutra, which is a little complex. I'll just give you a little taste of it. This person consists of six elements, six bases, six bases of contact, 18 kinds of mental exploration, and he has four foundations. So it's not that difficult, this sutra, but it's a little bit for later, maybe. Anyway, so then the Buddha gives his teaching about what this person is made out of.

[35:39]

And so I don't know if this story really happened, but I want it to have happened. So Buddha gives his teaching now. Of course, he was giving teaching before when he was trying to find out who he was talking to as part of the teaching. He was, you know, finding out what kind of a person this was. He found out, he sat with him for a while. He found out that he was a very, very good monk. And he found out he was an honest monk. So he's ready for this kind of pretty intense teaching which comes up here. So anyway, he's teaching along. And then at a certain point, about three-fourths of the way through Buddha's talk, Kukasati understands who's talking to him, because he understands the Dharma.

[36:57]

He understands the Dharma, he understands who the Buddha is. And then he says, oh my God, here I am, I've been treating this guy this way and now i've been looking i i found my teacher but the buddha kind of a talkative guy and he wasn't done with the talk so he didn't say teacher he just let him finish the talk and then he said you know i'm really sorry that i talked to you so this Respectfully, but informally, I didn't know who you were. I'm so happy to meet you. And the Buddha said, it's okay. It's okay. I thought that was a really nice sutra because it... I really felt...

[38:09]

In this early text it shows the intimacy of the Buddha and the Buddha's children. The care and respect and welcoming. The love without greed and the pure Dharma which brings out the pure love. I've read that to you. Those were two sexual beings spending time the night together and they spent the night in a way that inspires a person thousands of years later. It inspires a person thousands of years later to also try to be that way with others, to be respectful and attentive and gentle and mindful and energetic and enthusiastic and if possible wise and to sit up most of the night together and most of the day together

[39:39]

And so we hope that this kind of spirit can be carried forth in this... That sexual beings can work with their sexuality in such a way that Dharma can live between us. That it can blossom more and more fully in our relationships. And that the great sexual energy contained so that it nurtures the liberating truth of the Buddha.

[40:53]

In springtime, in summer, in fall and in winter, each season presents a different energy to work with, different challenges, which means different opportunities. Sex is not an obstacle to practice. Shit is not an obstacle to practice. Blood is not an obstacle to practice. Pus, mucus, pain. These are not obstacles to practice. These are opportunities for complete, innocent, childlike welcoming and relaxation. I really think so, but still there are habits in the body which react differently than what I just said, which might

[42:15]

very quickly, picking shoes among what is presented rather than everything, welcoming everything. The way Pukasati welcomed the Buddha, the way the Buddha welcomed Pukasati. Is there a bodhisattva vow to welcome whatever comes until all beings are liberated? Is there such a vow? Yes. In case it's not obvious, you're all welcome to express yourselves.

[43:38]

Where's the Ru Jin quote from? It's number 36. Well, actually, it's in the... It's from what he called Hokyoki, Dogen's records of his travels in China. It's in there. And in the Kodera translation, it's section 36. In what is called Enlightenment Unfolds, that book, it's in there too. And it's on page 22. And in the Eastern Buddhist by Norman Waddell, 1971, page 37. And I'm going to use the tape now. I shortened the text a little bit in what I've read to you.

[44:53]

Ah, venerable one. The lovable one. Please come. Can you hear me okay? Could you please say some more about the relationship between two things that apparently you said one being before entering a sexual relationship working with the teacher and discussing it exploring it with the teacher on one hand and then can you hear me okay could you Could you please say some more about the two things that apparently you said, one being before entering a sexual relationship,

[46:13]

working with the teacher and discussing it, exploring it with the teacher on one hand and then what seems to be a contradiction on the other something you told Gwen about if you're thinking about it it would appear that you are attached. So it's as though you're suggesting one approach to always sort of... I'm suggesting one approach, which is to think about it? You mean by going and talking to the teacher? Yeah. And the other approach being, I imagine, to let go of it, to not think about it discursively. Right. So everybody hear that? Is that clear? So first of all, if possible, forget about it. Let go of it. Let go of it. Then after you let go of it, if there seems to be something good about the relationship, so you let go of it, right?

[47:19]

But then what comes is that this phenomenon is presenting itself. I'm relaxed about it. I welcome it. Does that make sense? And then, if you're thinking of, if it seems like some action would be appropriate in this state of renunciation, then go talk to the teacher. Because maybe you're just dreaming that you're in a state of renunciation, and maybe you're just dreaming that this would be helpful. The example I gave of, well, here I am, I'm trying to be a bodhisattva, I'm relaxed about this, but this thing presents itself, I have no attachment to it, it seems good, so I think I'll try it. And you go tell the teacher, you know, and the teacher says, well, who is this person? Well, are they married or anything like that?

[48:25]

I didn't check. Oh, you didn't? Well, maybe you should check. Or, they are? They're married? Oh. So, you might think everything's cool, but when you go talk to the teacher, you find out perspectives on the situation. And then, but you're not necessarily thinking about it, you're kind of interacting about it. You're interrelating, not necessarily trying to figure out But in a sense, you're just trying to test your own understanding. So, you know, on one side, let go, have no attachment, no greed. And then, but still, you may feel like this isn't a greedy relationship. I think it's a beneficial relationship. I think it would be good. I think it would be good for everybody. I think it would be good for my my mommy and my daddy and my brothers and my sisters and all my friends, and I think it'd be good for the other person's friends and relatives too.

[49:29]

Seems to be good. We seem to feel we've got a healthy thing here. And we're not attached to it. We're not trying to control each other, and we don't seem to be manipulating each other. This seems like a really good relationship. And I feel relaxed about it. I feel energetic and confident. I feel mindful. This seems good. Okay? All right? This is like not thinking about it, really. This is just like mindfulness. Okay? But then still go talk to the teacher because you might be totally dreaming. So you go talk to the teacher, you say all this stuff, and the teacher says, you seem to be really up on this. And you say, what? Are you crazy? And you start to feel the heat, you know, and the tension, which you didn't notice before.

[50:32]

But the teacher helps you, and suddenly you find out you're totally like frothing at the mouth, and that you have to do this. Maybe. Maybe. So then that's very helpful that you went to the teacher. Now it's also possible that you are attracted to develop some relationship with someone and you don't feel it's this positive. But you still think maybe you should go forward with it. Well, in that case too, of course, you should go talk to the teacher. And the teacher says, well, you seem to have a lot of ambivalence about it. You seem to be kind of confused. You say, yeah, well, I am. Well, why don't you take it real easy now and don't get too involved before you get clear about what's going on here. Let's spend a lot of time getting to know each other. Build a container first before you unleash too much energy by doing certain things. And keep in touch with me about what's going on here.

[51:37]

Don't go any further without talking to me. than just relating to this person like you relate to everybody. Don't do anything special with this person until we talk more. So if you feel completely okay, check it with the teacher. If you feel any, what do you call it, reservations or confusion, check with the teacher. Relationship is like you meet somebody and think, now this is somebody I do not want to have a relationship with. it's really a bad relationship, and I just totally, there's no point to get involved. Talk to the teacher about that too. You don't want to have a relationship with this person? What do you mean? It doesn't tell you to marry the person, but the teacher might encourage you to relate to this person too. So the teacher and what the teacher represents can help you balance your feeling. Does that make sense?

[52:38]

You know, sometimes people say, do you need a teacher in your practicing Zen? And I say, well, eventually you do. But at the beginning of your practice, you may not need it. But in a sense, you need a teacher at the beginning, too. even before you get into some challenging areas. But most people don't need a teacher at the beginning because they're not willing to have a teacher at the beginning, because they're not willing to have somebody be included in intimate events like this. So it usually takes quite a while before you're willing to share this kind of stuff with somebody. So in that sense, you don't need a teacher at the beginning. Yes? Hello, Venerable One. Hello, Venerable One. Yesterday you were talking about being alone when you're together with somebody, or with a lot of people. Being aware of aloneness when you're with somebody.

[53:48]

Right. And that awareness of aloneness being connected to all oneness, the basis of it is sort of the unity of all. Yeah, or like I was just saying, if I'm with you, I remember everybody else and how you and I are connected to them too. Even though I'm seeing you, I don't forget our relationship with everybody else. I guess my confusion is it seems to me that if you were having an awareness of the kind of unity, the all oneness of everything, then there wouldn't really be an aloneness there, because there wouldn't be a you over there and a me over here, right? Yes, but that's an interesting part about the word aloneness. All oneness got turned into aloneness, because you are feeling alone because there's no other.

[54:49]

So the other person stops being other. And sometimes people don't like to hear They would be that you don't feel like there's anybody there. They want to be other than you. Sometimes people want to be, they want you to see them as other. But, you know, it's very, it's kind of subtle and dynamic, but there's a feeling of like you're with somebody and then suddenly there's not anybody there. You didn't, but the otherness dropped away. And you're not playing the self-other game anymore. But that doesn't necessarily feel lonely. It doesn't feel lonely, no. It doesn't feel lonely. Because when I feel lonely... But when people think about that, sometimes when people first shift, they feel lonely when they compare it to what it's like of having an other around. Sometimes you can almost get to the edge of the cliff.

[55:51]

the self-other cliff, and you can see that over there there's not two people anymore. And you think if you went over there you'd be lonely. All oneness with self and otherness, in the realm of self and other, it looks like loneliness sometimes. And it looks like betrayal of the other, abandonment of the other. But when you're actually in it, you're not abandoning the other, You're actually a better service to the other, but you don't see it as other. That's the bodhisattva. I'm devoted to the others, which I don't see as being other. Okay, so my confusion was like aloneness and loneliness. Right, and that's part of the emotional, what do you call it, obstacle course, in a sense, or that's the challenging thing of this kind of meditation is that As we approach oneness, we sometimes look at it as loneliness.

[56:55]

But it's more like bliss body where mountains and rivers are flowing through all your pores. That doesn't sound... It's so bad at all. It doesn't sound so bad at all. It's not bad at all. It's just that when you look at it from a dualistic perspective, part and aspect of it seems lonely, almost like you're betraying the world of otherness. So, that's why you have to really feel love to know that you're not abandoning people when you let go of their otherness. I have a couple of questions, if that's okay. Is it okay? It'll be a different delivery from the two questions yesterday. The first is, I'm curious to know more about building a container.

[57:59]

How do you do it, you mean? Yeah, and how different it must look depending on where you are in relationship to someone or some beings. Right. Yeah, so it depends on what stage you're at. Well, for example, sometimes people say, will you be my teacher? And I say, what do you mean by teacher? And then they tell me. And I say, well, maybe they say, I want some guidance. And I say, well, what do you want guidance about? And they say, I want guidance about practice. And I say, what aspect of practice? And they say, well, sitting meditation. I say, okay, and what kind of guidance would you like about sitting meditation? And then they say, work with me on my posture and my breathing and what comes up in the process. And I say, okay, and then what situation do you want to work? When are we going to do that? They say, well, I'd like to do it, we could do it in doxone. I say, well, how often do you want to do that? And they say, well, I want to do it three times a day. That's great that you want to.

[59:02]

I mean, I think that's wonderful, but practically speaking, I can't commit to that. But is there some other schedule that would be okay with you? And they might say, well, actually, that's what I would like, but I would accept less. How about once a day? And I say, well, even that's kind of hard. How about once a week? And I say, well, try that. And so then we say, okay, let's meet once a week. And how about during the morning sitting? Could you come to the morning sitting? We could do that once a week. Maybe on Tuesdays you could come or something. And you come and talk about your Zazen practice at that time. We have this, you know, she expresses what she wants, I listen and see whether that works for me. And we work back and forth and we come to an agreement. And then we say, how long should we do this for? Also, I might say, let's do this for a month or let's do this for three months. And then after that time we can, let's make a commitment for a month. After that we can check to see how it went.

[60:04]

So then after a month's over we check the container to see how it worked. And say, well, did you enjoy that? And let's say they say, yeah, that was helpful. What, do you want to do it for another month? Say, yeah, let's do it for another month. And they might say, no, actually, I'd like to take a break for two weeks. Say, okay. But we work it out. We make agreements. And sometimes people ask me to teach them some other things. And I say, well, you know, I'm not actually good at that particular thing. I don't particularly want to do that with you. I don't want to get into that. like one person actually really wanted to talk to me. You know, she thought, you know, I had problems with my mother, and she really wanted to talk to me about it. And she actually also thought that, you know, she had some bad things to say about my mother, too, which she wanted to tell me. She never met my mother, but she could conclude, you know, about my mother. And I said, you know, and I had a talk with her. But this is like creating a container.

[61:07]

And I said, I don't want to make a container. The container I want with you is not going to be like that. I don't want to get into agreeing that I'm going to sit here and listen to you talk to me about my mother. I didn't want to do it. And I actually had another... to witness this container building process. Because I said, I'm not going to do that. I said, I will meet with you about regular Zen practice. I'm happy to do that, but I'm not going to get into this thing of you trying to find out all this stuff about my past with my mother and you know, blah, blah, blah. So sometimes you say, and that's, if the person accepts your limitations, not your limitations, but the boundaries you want to set up, if they accept those boundaries, then you have a container which has boundaries. Some people might also say, well, I want to do such and such a thing with you. And you say, well, I think we shouldn't get involved in that way. Maybe someday, maybe sometime, but not now.

[62:07]

Right now, I have to set this boundary. Can you work with that? You might say, well, yes. And then as the relationship goes, and you start pushing on that boundary, then you say, oh, yeah. So you've agreed on it, though, so you can use your agreements to negotiate your different psyches trying to get to know each other. And another part of making a container is rechecking with it. You don't want it to last forever. Nothing lasts forever. Almost nothing. So check on the commitments and the understandings every now and then because people forget and And everybody changes, the season changes, all this stuff changes. Once you build it, then you also have maintenance of it. Checking with the other and yourself to see whether the commitments are still appropriate to your life together. So that's with a teacher-student, but same in a more peer relationship to make agreements and so on.

[63:16]

So like in our wedding ceremony at Zen Center, the two people come. They both recite the precepts and they're both committing to practice together using these precepts. And so that's their commitment. And it's sort of an indefinite commitment. But even in those cases, I recommend that people check to see, are we still committed to these precepts together, like once a year? Are we still going to want to practice another year with these precepts together? And, yes, I do. Okay, I do too. Let's try another year or another month or whatever. So there's many different types of agreements we can make, but... And then also the other thing is to almost like check the other person, test them to see, now, what did you think I just said? And then they say, blah, blah, blah. And you say, no, that's not what I meant. Try it again. Yes, that's it. Now, do you want to check to see if I understood what you said? So all this kind of stuff really seems to help clarify and give support to the extremely dynamic situation of having a relationship.

[64:24]

It's working. So how about what Suhiko was saying about when you're just thinking about it? And you said start building a container. How do you do that when the desire has come up or when the impulse to kind of get more involved from the beginning? Again, I think it's good to talk to your teacher about it. What if you don't have a teacher? I think, well, you get a therapist. Get Get a friend. Get somebody that's not, you know, somebody who has some interest in this type of work. In other words, having good relationships. To bounce it off of, to get some help so that you're not just... Because you can fool yourself, you know. You can fool yourself. A lot of people think, I'm relaxed about this, you know. This is not a problem for me. I mean, I can take it or leave it. Then they get involved and suddenly, like, they can't leave it. Or maybe they can leave it, but they got involved with somebody, and that person said that they could leave it, and that person can't leave it.

[65:39]

They could take it, leave it. You said you could, and now you're saying that you can't. Well, too bad. Then this person's like totally devastated. They thought they were relaxed and unattached, and they were just going to really get close, and it doesn't have to be any commitment. I was wrong. I'm totally attached to you. I won't be able to get through the night without you. I mean, I will kill myself if you leave me now. People do that stuff a few hours after saying that they feel totally at ease with the situation. I've heard about it. And we've had it happen at Zen Center. That severe attachments form in a situation where one of the parties isn't up for it because they didn't agree to it beforehand. And so sometimes you say, no, okay, no. No commitment, right? Right.

[66:41]

Right. And then a little while later, yes, but I didn't know I was going to fall madly in love with you. I didn't know that was going to happen. And now I am. And so now you got to face it that this no commitment business isn't going to work. Well, I don't want to do that. Too bad. To have somebody else in there, like your teacher who says, you know, you got to take care of this. You can't, you got to take care of this person. Or hopefully before it happened, you got to take care of this person. Are you really ready for this? Are you up for being really devoted to this person? Because you can't minimize a relationship. You can't say, I'm going to only help him this far, and after that, too bad. You can say what you want, but if you say to somebody, okay, go ahead, open up, then you have to open up too. And if you don't think so, you don't know who you respect.

[67:42]

who's supposedly practicing Buddhism to help you, like, really look at what you're doing and see if you're really being kind about this whole thing and really being mindful and really being honest. So, even if you're just thinking about it, it's good to talk to somebody who can help you think about it. Because, you know, I always use this, I use this example over and over about, you know, the, what is it, when I was in a car, right, and there's a traffic jam up ahead, and I turn left to avoid it, and turn into a worse traffic jam, and then I say, well, that was the stupidest thing I ever did, and she says, even when you confess So, you know, we say things and we think, well, that was a confession of my stupidity, but actually it was a compliment.

[68:49]

I mean, wouldn't that be like, wouldn't I be a fabulous guy if that was the stupidest thing I ever did? But that isn't the stupidest thing I ever did. But I sort of... So sometimes we say things to ourselves, and if somebody else could hear us, they would say, what? You know? I'm thinking of getting in a relationship with so-and-so. What? But you say it yourself, it sounds fine. You know, that seems reasonable. They're this and they're that. It makes sense, you know, in my own little head, which is just my own little head. But if I would say that out loud to somebody who was listening, they would say, what did you just say? You say, what do you mean? You say, did you know blah, blah, and blah, blah? Oh, did you hear what, did you know such and such type of person? I don't see you that way. You know, really? Yeah. Oh. You know, and it doesn't mean they're right.

[69:52]

It just makes you realize that somebody thinks you're leaving out part of the story for whatever reason. Oftentimes when we get involved with people, somebody brought up this thing about love is blind. Sometimes When we start feeling certain ways, we can't see so clearly. Like people at Tassajara, very little taking of drugs here. Springtime can intoxicate you too. You know, swimming in all this pollen can intoxicate you. And in the intoxication of springs, people start looking pretty cute sometimes. You know, almost like everybody starts looking cute. But then when the pollen backs off, and you see, oh, this is an ordinary person. I didn't. I thought it was a goddess. In a state of intoxication, some people look like they're perfect.

[70:56]

I mean, you just tuned in a goddess. Yes. And if you tell someone, oh, I just met this goddess yesterday. Oh, who is it? So-and-so. Oh, really? Oh, I thought that was so-and-so. Maybe you were, are you okay now? Maybe you should take it easy because you might not feel like this tomorrow or next week. Give it some time. Sometimes the infatuation can last for months. But it's a kind of intoxication where you're not seeing the person realistically anymore. You're idealizing them, you know? You're caught by what we call idealization transference. Like, they look perfect. You're a little, they're a little like, you see that? But if you don't say it to anybody, you're just walking around in this idealization, and then planning on the basis of it, things can get, you know, what is it like? I sometimes use the image of, it's like you want to take off together,

[71:58]

with the air control officers, you know. So when you want to land, they say, you can't come back here. And so you crash. So the teacher or somebody can help you decide whether you should really launch this thing. And if you're really, really idealizing the situation, they might caution you. They say, you seem intoxicated by spring right now. So get it out. Get it out. with some mindful, caring person, hopefully someone with some experience with these matters, and that probably will help. Do I have time to ask the other one? Do I? So my other one is about misusing sexuality. And I was wondering, a lot of young people come to Zen Center Tassar, and I wonder whether somewhere is a reason to misuse sexuality for young people.

[73:06]

Maybe not misuse of, but certainly experimentation with. I feel that that the way that we talk now is all well and good for all of us and have misused our sexuality for many years. And this all makes perfect sense, what you're saying. It's crystal clear to me now. I'm 38. But, you know, there are people here who are in their late teens, early 20s, and they probably don't want to make a life commitment to someone they want to have. So how does that fit into this precept? Well, it's a real big discussion, but this is my perspective, okay? This is not the law. This is my perspective. My perspective would be, if somebody wants to be a priest and they have any worldly ambitions, I usually suggest they go

[74:19]

And ambition means not just something you'd like to do, but something that you would feel bad about not doing. So if somebody wants to have kids or something like that, and they haven't had them yet, I would say, well, go have the kids. Or wait to have the kids until you've trained for a while. Don't try to do priest training and start a relationship and have kids. I don't think almost no one is going to be able to do that program. So I would say, take care of anything you want to accomplish, take care of it so that you can, when you come to train and practice here, you can have energy and time available to do it. And if you get married, have children, or whatever, or get in a relationship and you work it out, and then that relationship allows you time to train, well then come and train. We can see that. So, if you tell me that they want to get involved in a relationship and they don't want to make a commitment, I would say, well, I don't recommend it, but go ahead.

[75:31]

I'm not stopping you. But I don't think you should be doing that in a Buddhist training center, of starting a relationship without commitment. It could cause a lot of pain in the situation. For example, I would say to them, you know, if you get together with this person and you don't stay with them and you split up, and you're living in the valley together, and then one or the other of you get involved with somebody else, you're going to see that. And that may be unbearable. One of you or one of you. And you may start then fighting. Even though you split up, you may start fighting with each other after you split up about one of you starting another relationship. Or you may split up with somebody because you want to start another relationship and tell them some other reason why you split up. And then they see you start the other one and then they feel like you betrayed them, blah, blah, blah. And you're living in the same little valley together. We have these little valleys like Tassara Valley, Green Gulch Valley, and Hayes Valley. Our three centers, right?

[76:32]

We live in these little valleys together. And if you get committed, if you get involved with somebody and then you split up, that's all. Sometimes just that in itself It's hard to go to the zendo anymore if they're in the same room with you. It's hard to be at work meeting with them. It's hard to walk by them and, you know, should we, how do we split up? How far do we have to stay apart, you know? And then, you know, you're getting too close to me again. Leave me alone. Blah, blah, blah, blah. Don't sit. And then you're also talking to other people about it and other people, blah, blah, blah. So it becomes this major event. which doesn't have a container. It's spilling all over the place. This is one relationship. Then if either one of you get attracted to somebody else, instead of another one, then the other person can... Hating your former friend. Your former friend starts hating the one you're involved with. Hates you. All this... Because it's so painful to see somebody that you got involved with getting involved with somebody else under your nose.

[77:35]

So you tell people about this stuff and then they can maybe understand that this is not the place to have a relationship without containment. And the fact that I did stupid things does not mean that the next generation has to do stupid things in Zen Center. If they have to do stupid things, in other words, I think it's not a good idea without commitment. But I did that myself. And that's how I've learned that I think it's not a good idea. But if somebody wants to do it, I say, okay, go ahead. But it's so disturbing in the community. We've learned that. And again, at the beginning of Zen Center, we didn't learn, so we have all these examples. In the early days here, people used to go from around Tassajara. And it was so disturbing that we gradually said, let's not do that anymore. Let's have committed relationships. They're also time-consuming, but at least you can take care of the relationship and not disturb the rest of the community. But even those sometimes interfere with the form of practice.

[78:41]

So sometimes people have to leave because they don't have the time to take care of the relationship and also follow the schedule. But at least, since there's commitment, it doesn't hurt the rest of the community because they're not like... being unfaithful to each other and causing all that kind of stuff to happen. So that's what I would say to a young person. They felt like, you know, I just have to find out what it's like to have relationships without commitment. I don't want to make the commitment, and I do want to have the relationships. And I say, okay, what can I say? I'm not trying to control you, but I don't recommend it, but I certainly don't recommend it at Tassajara or Green Gulch situations. And, but I understand, you know, I did the same thing, it's true. But so from my point of experience, the older person says, I did this, it was a mistake. I don't recommend it. But sometimes I know, you have to make the same mistakes yourself. You can't just take my word for it. So then they go. And then they come back some years later and say, okay, now I'm ready to like, next relationship I have, I'll do with commitment.

[79:48]

experience. Okay. I mean, that's my opinion. It's an experience. It's an important experience. Yeah, important experience. And I think there's a little bit less people running around starting relationships than there was 30 years ago here. People somehow, it seems to be making sense to the younger people to be more And it seems to be making sense to the older people to be more careful. You can stand up if you like. Okay. Can you hear me? Okay.

[80:51]

How's your arm? it's very, very slowly recovering. Oh, good. It's a wonderful opportunity for patients to work with the slowness of its recovery. Good, thank you. You may have already, you've certainly touched on what I was asking about with Sueko's question and Siobhan's first question. And it has to do with working with the teacher. major life questions. And not, in my case, about relationships, starting relationships or ending relationships, but about leaving home. And I don't know what the question exactly is, but it has, since I last spoke to you, which was, I saw for myself how trying to separate the questions into individual questions to say, well, how do I figure out this part?

[81:55]

Or how do we work with this part? Just, there is no separate part. And my response to that this morning in sitting has been to feel like... Simplifying the question altogether by trying to move quickly. And just not think about it. Trying to what? Move quickly in the sense of just here's the sword and just cut it. Like there's the knot, here's the sword, cut the knot. Which doesn't mean not checking. but which is instead of trying to figure things out, and I think this is why I think you already sort of answered this when you were talking to Suiko, and that's how it came forward as a question, that instead of trying to figure things out and then come with, I think maybe this, or I have this thing, it's not figured out in any way, and then it's spoken about.

[83:09]

Mm-hmm. so that it's not pre-thought. It's alive in the conversation just like dokusa, even if it's about . So that's the question, I guess, is the answer. Yeah, that's right. Is there a little more? That seems like antithetical to what you just said. Okay, well then. That's going back to the realm of figuring things out, I feel. Okay. Which looks like where you want to go. No, I don't. I think I want to... Then go away. Oh, do I have to? No, you don't have to. It's just what you want to do. This is clinging. Microphone. This is clinging. Clinging to the floor. You're stuck. Pardon me? You're stuck. You're stuck. Okay, then I'll stand up. But can I still say something?

[84:12]

You seem to be still stuck to me. Let's show some freedom. Can I leave home really soon? Give up the microphone. I always hope that the microphone doesn't discourage people from asking questions. Because it's scarier to come up here and talk into the microphone. Or it is for me. But I seem to keep doing it. Yeah. He liked being scared. In a rollercoaster kind of way. So I guess I think... This question has to do with what Ninan said a couple of days ago, and you gave Shiananbo occasionally.

[85:22]

And I was thinking about how people have complimented Dale and I as similarly, oh, I've been here for four months and I didn't know you guys were a couple. and I guess now we're wearing rings so maybe more but but it I think it mostly has to do with the amount of especially physical, but just like the way we pay attention to each other in public and It would mean ends question and I think even I don't know if practice leaders have come I've said like or somebody's like said oh you guys are harmoniously practicing as a couple in the community and And then somebody else, like maybe who's more couple-y might not be. Or, you know, I know just maybe not practice leaders, but people have criticized other couples to me in praising Dale and I. And I get kind of sad about it. like that we've gone from people hopping beds from Cabin 2018 around, like you were just describing, to the way that it seems like we say that you can be a couple and practice here, and I feel very welcome to practice here as a couple.

[86:39]

Like someone said to me the other day, oh, I saw you and Dale Hug in the courtyard, and then the conversation went on, but afterwards I was like, that's impossible. I would never do that. And then it's like, is that... It was a vision. It was a vision. Like maybe it was an energetic hug or something, or something happened, but not... I want so badly to respect everyone here, and I think I'm super conscious about celibate practice versus couple relationship practice. But I just wanted to say out loud that I'm kind of sad about the degree to which it feels like There's so little physical expression that is deemed appropriate. So I guess I just wanted to check out that story. I'm definitely not asking permission. Check out what story? That this is how I see that anybody, if you do want to get into a relationship here, you should basically appear to the community as much as possible, not looking too much like a couple.

[87:45]

That just seems kind of weird to me when I hear it. I don't know what you just said. I didn't know that that was being said, that if you're in a relationship, you're supposed to not look like a couple. I didn't hear that. Huh? Yeah, so I don't know about that. But anyway, I think, like, for me, it's not so much a couple thing, but just that I feel that if I touch one... First of all, that touching people... is something just to be careful of. Sometimes I feel like touching people, but I don't because I feel like it might be seen as condescending. Like I can touch you, but you can't come up and touch me. Somebody might feel like, I mean, or you can touch me, but I can't come up and touch you. Like, sometimes I just feel like a elderly thing, you know, towards people. Like, you know, my son or my daughter, hi, you know, that kind of thing. I feel that kind of thing. But it could be seen as, you know, a little condescending or something.

[88:50]

So I sometimes don't do it, being careful of it. But it's not because I'm in a couple with them or I'm not trying to not look like a couple. And other times I feel like it's not so much that condescending kind, but just... just affectionate, you know. And I sometimes have in the past hesitated to do that, but now I don't so much because I feel like that I can do that with anybody. So I guess I wouldn't do things with a person in public, with everybody in public, basically. myself. So I'm in a different position from you. So I would like to be able to hold hands with this man or that woman in public because but only if I would do it with anybody. So when I feel like I can do this with anybody, when I'm in the mood of holding hands with anybody, I can hold hands with this person.

[89:51]

That's how I feel. But if I'm holding hands with this person, but I don't want to hold hands with that person, then I don't hold hands with this person. Because then my holding hands with this person has exclusiveness and hurts people sometimes. Or if I praise somebody in public, and I'm willing to praise anybody, if I'm in a praising mood, and I'm willing to praise anybody, then I dare to praise this person. Because maybe I can't praise each individual person. But if my spirit is, if I praise you and my spirit, you know, praise everybody else too, even though I may not have time, and people come up, somebody comes up to me and says, you know, it really hurt me that you praised Melissa. You know, because I did feel, I felt left out. I said, well, you know what? You're not. I respect you just as much. You're just as great as she is. Like that. Even though I don't say it to that person, then when I say it to you, I know that if they call me on it, I can say, you're wrong. I love you as much as I love her.

[90:52]

It's different, because you're such a stinkpot, but in a way, you know, You're completely equal. You're totally, I mean, my life depends on you. I'm totally devoted to you. Go ahead, test me. You know, I'm totally here for you. But if I don't feel like that for everybody, then I hold back with you because showing it to you will hurt them. So I don't, in that case. But when I see my grandson, you know, I'm not afraid to express my feelings for him because when I see him I feel that way about everybody. I'm totally here for you. But if I don't feel like that for everybody then I hold back with you because showing it to you will hurt them.

[91:53]

So I don't in that case. But when I see my grandson I'm not afraid to express my feelings for him because when I see him I feel that way about everybody. I'm willing to tickle anybody or squeeze anybody's cheek when I'm squeezing his cheek. So I'm not afraid of him. So you have to think if you express your feelings towards your couple, towards your partner, in a way that you wouldn't do with somebody else, and I say you shouldn't do it in public. I'm not going to say you shouldn't do it in public, but it might hurt people. Maybe it's good to hurt people, but I think it might. So it isn't that... It's possible that I would stand next to my wife in public, just stand next to her, and people can say, there they are, that's a couple. Look at the way he stands next to her. Look at the way he's devoted to her. Look at the way he respects her. But they don't feel left out.

[92:56]

It's possible. There's other ways of being with her that feel left out. So you have to think about whether you're excluding anybody by the way you're relating to Dale. I think... For some reason, I thought I was hearing the message that I could be affectionate with other people, but not with a partner person. So I guess that's what I wanted to check out. If you're affectionate with everybody here, you can also be affectionate with him. But if you're not affectionate with everybody, then being affectionate with him, people are going to feel left out. Now, people may say, oh, you're just being affectionate with me so you can do it for Del. It's not true. It's not true. You can say it's not true. You can say, I really love you, I really appreciate you, and he's going to be my husband. There's a difference. But I really do appreciate you, and I'm not just appreciating you so that I can get by with having a husband. So you have to look in your heart and see whether there's an exclusive, grasping, greedy thing with this person, and that hurts people.

[94:07]

Hurts you and him, hurts everybody. But if this is you love him and that love is for everybody, then you can express it. It's around, it's the same thing. It's just that it can take forms that people just don't want to see. Most healthy people don't want to see. I think I understand that part. Thank you. This Buddhism is all about love. The question is, what's the appropriate expression of it? I get really nervous talking in front of people, so I'm really nervous. I hope I can say this correctly. My question is about holding back. Okay. You were just talking about holding back and acting. Yeah. And somebody reminded me the other day that unless we're omniscient, we really can't know the effects of our actions.

[95:18]

Right. So I wonder how to respond in that situation if maybe you notice that your renunciation is not complete. What I'm recommending is... practice of welcoming and relaxing with everything that happens because this goes into the realm of not your actions. So Buddha actually understands how karma works, but I'm recommending a path which is not karma. I'm talking about practicing meditation in such a way that it goes into the realm where it's not you isolated from me acting. So your question originally was the consequences of your actions. But I'm saying even if you could see the consequences of your action, even if you could see that they were good, relatively good, all things are karmic, create bondage.

[96:24]

Wholesome karma creates bondage too, even though it's wholesome. So what I'd like to make a case for is let go of that perspective. Enter into no mind. The action come, which is not you doing it. But in that state, you're not also copping out on any responsibility because even what other people do, you're responsible for. Even if they're karmically involved. So any karma you get involved in, you're responsible. Any karma they're responsible you're responsible for. But what about action that is not done by you? That's the action which I'm trying to praise and encourage. But how does that relate to holding back? If you're holding back, that obstructs that kind of action. But you're recommending holding back. I'm not recommending holding back.

[97:26]

I don't think I'm recommending holding back. You said if you can't show affection to everybody, like you can show affection to one person, you should hold back. I maybe said that, but I don't consider that holding back. Okay? So, what is it like? If I want to touch you, and you tell me you don't want me to touch you, then I don't touch you. But it's not really that I'm holding back. If I think of that action, I'm holding back. Really what I'm doing is what I want to do. And I may not touch you if you don't want me to. But if I was thinking of doing something and I find out it's going to be harmful, then I don't want to do it anymore. So, thank you for pointing that out. Because this way of being is that I'm not holding back. Or put it the other way, if I'm holding back, then I should admit I'm holding back. So if I'm holding back affection for you, then I shouldn't show it to Melissa and hurt you. But if I'm willing to be completely affectionate with you, then I can be affectionate with her, and you can see it.

[98:34]

Because if you say, you know, it really hurt me that you were affectionate with Melissa, you were never that way with me, and I say, well, how about this one? So, If I'm not holding back, then I don't have to hold back. But if I'm holding back, then I should admit I'm holding back and not be selective and expose some people to giving when I'm being stingy with others. That's what I meant. But I would like this to happen. In other words, I accept the situation. I'm not holding back. I feel this is a proper response. For a person like me, who's limited, if I'm going to be, what do you call it... holding back here, I should admit I'm holding back. Or I could go over to you and I say, with you, Ben, and I'm going to go not hold back with her. What do you think of that? So I'm not recommending holding back, but if you are holding back, then remember that's going on and have that be part of which will guide you to see for the appropriate response to come forth.

[99:37]

But best is not to be holding back at all. No, holding back. But if there is holding back, respect those boundaries, respect those borders and work with them. You're welcome. So it's been going on a long time. You're probably getting really tired now, right? So there's nobody else waiting, right? Is there? Is that enough? Did we do the sex thing enough? Seriously. How you doing?

[100:41]

Getting tired? Yeah. You okay? Okay. Thank you. This whole thing is so energetic and There's so much feeling around it, sex and relationships and everything. Glad you noticed. Yeah. It's hard to even say anything. But the feeling that I've been having today is I'm so surprised. I guess I was really naive. I'm so surprised that that kind of like what you were describing at Tassajara in terms of people sleeping around and not, you know, to point out you personally, but just that you would, you said you were having this kind of relationship with your director at City Center and I just have this, not that I'm any different, but I just assume everybody else is much better.

[102:00]

And So not having that sort of image of perfection to hold on to, because that's where I assumed the instruction was coming from. The instruction of... From perfection. Right, right. My reaction is, well, it's sort of like along the lines of what Siobhan was saying. This feeling comes up. I don't know if this is my reaction, but there's the feeling of... how you can say, well, don't have this path. It's a mistake, you know, but you can only say that having had the experience and you haven't had the experience of at all and just not making that mistake and in my case I've already made the mistake and I've already gone down that path to some degree but I don't know there's still that feeling of how does this karma work itself out you know it seems so powerful

[103:27]

It's like you were describing that turkey, you know? I mean, I was thinking of that yesterday. It's like what we do with each other, like the proportions of people's bone structure and how far your eyes are apart and the proportion of your calf to your elbow. And it's all, oh, that's just the right proportion. And something goes off and that's it. The red dot is just the right distance from the blue beak, from the yellow beak, and then that's all over. This is very challenging material to relax with, but that's what I'm basically saying is that I recommend ...commending a certain thing, and it's to meet everything with the state of openness, mindfulness, relaxation, welcoming, giving up distinctions, and then the path of appropriateness is natural.

[104:42]

But the hard thing is to train our mind to meet things with this kind of presence. So it basically again comes down to just really recommending presence, [...] and that's basically it. And don't go down that path. I'm not really saying don't go down that path. I'm saying that path, please be present with it. And if you think you are present with it, great. And then maybe you could, like, get somebody else to reflect on how present you are so you aren't just dreaming that you're... And then it's possible that going down that path is right. The path I'm cautioning us about... You know, I... I feel like I'm spending less time cautioning against the path of not being present. I'm trying to put more emphasis on the path of being present.

[105:43]

And then if somebody goes down the path of not being present, then I say, well, let's just confess and repent that we went down the path of not being present. It's not over now. It's possible to recover. Let's admit we made these mistakes. And now to being present. And it's really hard to be present when certain things fall into place. Because some things fall into place and what they actually do is they say, do not be present. Grab it. And you'll be still. So then how do you relax with that? It's really hard. It seems like what you're suggesting in terms of relaxation in this case is, or what I'm hearing is, that things aren't as bad as they may seem. That's part of it. There's a lot of gray. That's part of it. There is, you know, you make something, you also make mistakes, and then there's a form to that too.

[106:50]

Right. Whereas I have this very rigid idea that, like, there's do and don't, and we have to have the entire picture laid out now, and if we don't know what That's sort of what Ben was saying. You have to be omniscient to understand what would be the appropriate response. So again, what I hear you bring up is the fourth skanda in relationship to sexuality. You know, what's right and what's wrong and what's appropriate and what's not appropriate and all that stuff in the white, the clear and the unclear, all that stuff is being presented to you. Tremendous profusion of information. And so part of what sexuality is, is a very complex, psychophysical, computational event. We're figuring out exactly how all this is going to happen. It's incredibly complex. All of it's being presented to us. How can we relax in it so we don't, you know, basically go into reaction?

[107:54]

Or go into, like, spasm? Be unskillful? If I come in here and I tell you, you know, which they do in some churches, you know, basically, I haven't been doing that, but even the slightest, I haven't been coming in and saying, sex is basically bad. Don't do it. That would be simple. But Even a little bit of, the slightest bit of comment about sex, where if the way I talk about it holds a little bit, you know, if you feel me talking about it in a little bit of a position I'm holding to, basically you don't like that. Because you see that when I'm talking about this, like it should go this way or that way, that I'm trying to control the way sexuality happens at Tassajara. That's not attractive. So the bodhisattva attracts people to the path of non-attachment by demonstrating how lovely non-attachment is.

[108:55]

So he doesn't get stuck on do it, don't do it that way. So I tell horror stories a little bit just so people know that there are horror stories. But, you know, in fact, I think even horror stories we should relax with. But also tell them once in a while. They're fun. But don't tell horror stories to try to manipulate people. So what's the right number of horror stories to bring up? That's the art of it. You bring in too many, it gets too heavy, people get tense. You bring up too few, people get ungrounded. Well, basically this is all just fun. Well, yeah. Yeah. If somebody says, it's just all fun, everything's okay. Yeah, right. Yeah, sure. Yeah, that's true. It's no problem. This is like a piece of cake.

[109:58]

The sex thing is no problem. You said relax, so, you know, yeah. And then we come back with, you know, cut somebody's finger off. And sometimes that's really helpful. Kind of like, oh, I get it, thank you. So, you know, it's really a tremendous artistic challenge to us. How to artistically, how to beautifully respond to this situation. So I don't want to get into, don't do this, don't do that. And I also don't want to not get into, don't do this. Sometimes we should say, don't do this and don't do that. Just, you know, because sometimes that's part of the world. The question is, is there attachment in the presentation? And if there is, I think it's the efficacy of whatever the response is, is blocked. The helpfulness is blocked.

[111:01]

And I feel like things have loosened up here without people getting overly loose. That there's... I feel we're getting somewhere in the neighborhood of a balanced approach to this challenge, to this opportunity, to this springtime. But I don't want to attach to that idea. Maybe we're in big trouble right now. Maybe we're in a very... Okay? Thank you. Jamie has her hand up. You were just going to... That's fine. We can just end it. I was going to say... I have a question about when you say that you recommend marriage.

[112:05]

Right. May our intention

[112:36]

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