At the end of our last meeting, in the process of discussing these four methods that bodhisattvas practice, these four ways of embracing and sustaining beings, and also four ways of being embraced and sustained by beings. And those four ways were giving, loving speech, beneficial action, and identity action or cooperation. So these are practices that you might say solitary Buddhas can practice in order to realize together with Buddha.

[01:23]

again, being only a Buddha or a solitary Buddha, practicing these four methods, we also realize together with Buddha. And the combination of only a Buddha together with Buddha, that is understanding the reality of all things. Understanding the reality of all things is being ourselves completely in intimate relationships with other beings who are themselves completely. So we have the job of being ourselves completely, or the opportunity to be ourselves completely, and then to engage intimately with others. And so one description of that process is giving loving speech, beneficial action, and identity action with all beings.

[02:38]

Does that sound familiar, somewhat, from last week? And we were talking about the first one, I think. I don't know how far we got, but anyway, in response to the first one or in relationship to the first one, I said that the first one means giving yourself. And I think Barbara Joan asked about, well, what about having boundaries? And I think I said, Well, so part of the practice of giving is giving boundaries. When you give yourself, when you give yourself fully, you give yourself all the way to your boundaries. You don't just give kind of like the this part of yourself, you give yourself all the way to your boundaries.

[03:45]

So giving boundaries or giving up to the point of your boundary is what that practice is. And that is a way for you being completely you to meet another person being completely another person. Or you being you meeting a coffee cup or a tree or a mountain. So tonight I would really like to get into this business of boundaries and limits and how that is part of realizing the reality of all things. So I think I'm quoting now Ralph, Waldo Emerson, is that his name?

[04:49]

There's some rumors about him studying Buddhism to some extent. But anyway, some of his teachings echo the Buddhist teachings. And tonight I'd like to mention that in one of his essays called Nature, I think it's there, he said something like, In every landscape, the point of astonishment is where the earth meets the sky. Or the point of astonishment is the meeting of sky and earth. Now, Earth is a big, in a way, from our perspective, Earth's a big place, but it's limited.

[05:56]

It has limits. The sky, on the other hand, does not have limits. But it does have limits. What is the limit of the sky? The limit of the sky is the Earth. The sky ends at the earth. As soon as the sky meets the earth, it's reached its limit. And the sky fully gives its limit to the earth. And the earth fully gives its limit to the sky. And where they meet, Emerson called that the point of astonishment. What comes to my mind is, I don't know what the root of the word astonishment is, but I would also call that place where heaven meets earth or sky meets earth, I would call that place the place where the light is shining.

[07:13]

It's a place of radiance. Now here at Green Gulch, we do have this situation of the earth meeting the sky, but we also have the part of the earth called the sea, the sea part of the earth. And every day it's astonishing to see that sea, the limit of the sea, meet the limit of the sky. It's so amazingly amazing. radiant, that meeting place. Now, of course, you could say the whole ocean is radiant. But anyway, the place of emphasis tonight is where the sky meets the sea, where the sky meets the earth. Now, in Buddhist terms, we have Buddhist terms like nirvana. Have you heard of that one? And samsara. Have you heard the word samsara? Samsara means going around between birth and death and birth and death, to be caught in a cycle of birth and death.

[08:23]

Nirvana is like free, freedom. It's not being caught by the cycle. However, nirvana is not the least bit different from the cycle. Just like the sky is not the least bit different from the earth. Because the limit of the sky is the earth and the limit of the earth is the sky. The limit of samsara is nirvana. And the limit of nirvana is samsara. The limit of me is you. limit of you is me. But when I say you, I mean all of you, not just one of you. But if the individual me means one of you, I also mean all of you and vice versa.

[09:28]

So part of what giving is about is giving yourself, but also allowing yourself to be completely yourself all the way to your limits. And then allowing others to be themselves all the way to their limits. And as you might have already guessed, that is a challenging practice. For example, we often may feel some shyness or fear of letting people know our limits. When you let somebody know your limits, especially if you do it with kind speech, with loving speech, when you lovingly show them your limits,

[10:31]

you're more fully exhausting your limits. And that's where you meet the other. If you have limits and you don't allow them, you're not being generous to yourself and your relationship with others. Our limits should need to be honored and expressed. But again, it may take us lots of practice to find the way to express our limits fully. And again, fully means kindly, calmly. As a matter of fact, when we remember silence and stillness, from there, we most clearly can express our limits.

[11:34]

Allowing ourselves to have limits helps us allow others to have limits. And welcoming our limits promotes us welcoming others' limits. And in promoting these limits in both sides of the relationship, we have Buddha together with Buddha. one time an ancient teacher asked his assembly, I think, he was speaking to his students, but maybe I got it wrong. Either he was speaking to the students or someone asked him, where are all the Buddhas born? So either he asked the congregation, where are all the Buddhas born? Or somebody asked him, where are all the Buddhas born?

[12:46]

I'll give you a hint. Another way to say that is, where is the birth of understanding the reality of all things? And the teacher, whose name was Yun Men, said, Eastern mountains travel over the water where the mountains touch the water and move over them. At that point of contact is where Buddhas are born. The Heart Sutra says, form is emptiness, emptiness is form. In other words, the limit of form is emptiness. The limit of emptiness is form.

[13:48]

The same is true of feelings, perceptions, all mental formations, and consciousness. At the limit of consciousness is emptiness. At the limit of a color is emptiness. At the limit of a taste is emptiness. At the limit of a touch is emptiness. At the limit of a thought is emptiness. At the limit of a perception, emptiness. At the limit of a feeling, emptiness. At the limit of emptiness, feeling. At the limit of emptiness, color. At that limit of this is the limit of that. That's where everything meets. Everything meets at their fullness. and fully expressing and fully allowing and giving, allowing myself to be limited and giving myself to be limited. In the essay on Only a Buddha Together with Buddha, Dogen makes a statement which has been translated, some people translate it as, don't be afraid of, no, yeah, don't be afraid of being small.

[15:07]

Don't be afraid of being limited. It's necessary, or I would say, go ahead and be afraid of being limited, but don't let being afraid of being limited stop you from being generous to yourself and allowing yourself to be limited, even if you're afraid to be limited. Even if you're afraid to be small, Express your smallness to the end of your smallness and there you will meet not smallness. So the mountain on the waters place the mountain touches the waters is at the base of the mountain got to walk all the way down the mountain all the way to the tip of the bottom of the mountain where it meets the water that's where buddhas are born you have to fully express the limit of the mountain that you are and there is the radiance of the mountain and the radiance of the water

[16:33]

Maybe that's enough for starters. Did I talk about kind speech last week? About talking to someone like talking to a baby? Do you remember that? Okay. I think I talked about all four, right? So, I welcome your feedback on all that. Any questions or comments you have on fully giving our limits and encouraging others to fully be themselves all the way to the limit of themselves? Any questions about that practice and how it relates to zazen, how it relates to Only a Buddha and a Buddha. Only a Buddha together with Buddha. How it relates to where Buddhas are born.

[19:01]

Stephen. Hi, Rob. Mr. Stephen. So I really like that. And I think it answers some questions for me. And I don't know, I think you probably are aware that I'm interested in intersubjectivity, but the limits of the media... Even did you say intersubjectivity? Yes. And I kind of put some different understandings on that. But I mean, I think I understand it as well as probably... what most other people do as well. But, you know, the, I think what this answers is are really gets the bottom of pretty nicely is I think sort of violence violation. I mean, this is the way to limit violence. and uh forfend violence and violation in this practice because if i have to respect the limit in fact as as a buddha or as bodhi or insofar as i take part in bodhi bodhi respects limits the only way i can meet um

[20:41]

You is exactly the same place where you can meet me. And there would be a violation and a violence if I could meet you somewhere where you couldn't meet me. So no spying, right? I mean, there's no... Yeah, the meeting is radically egalitarian. And... I think that answers a lot of questions. I mean, just very speculatively, it seems to me that it's highly interesting if this universe were set up and whoever set the universe up said, oh, by the way, we're going to do this and ultimately there's going to be no violation. We're going to respect limits. Yeah. So Stephen just brought up intersubjectivity, and so a subject is limited.

[21:58]

And I'm a limited subject, and each of you is a limited subject. But our intersubjectivity is not limited. our intersubjectivity is the space between and all around us. And in order to enjoy that intersubjective conversation, we need to allow others to be fully their subject. and allow us to be fully our subject. And we need others to help us be fully our subject by, for example, calling us into question. I cannot be my full limited self without you questioning me.

[23:05]

And you cannot be your full self without inviting me and others to question you. to call you into account. And this being called into account helps me fill myself, be myself to my limits, to my utmost. And in that utmost me meeting utmost you, we have this event of inner subjectivity. And that's together with Buddha. So me, being completely solitary me, that's part of it. Then there's me being me, completely limited me, completely limited me, together with you, completely you. And that relationship is inner subjectivity. And I need to respect myself and you in order for that intersubjectivity to be fully alive.

[24:13]

And I must give up trying to control you. I must be generous with you. And that generosity is to completely let you be the way you are. And inquire how you're doing with that work. To see if you feel you're Your job of being yourself is alive. Thank you, Steven. Hello. Hello. Okay, let's see. I'm so glad that you really went into detail about boundaries and limits and so poetically with the landscape.

[25:28]

Because I wanted to, as people have been sharing about you coming into their dreams, I wanted to share my dream, but it's also very related to boundaries of something that happened with my sister. So it's two stories. So first in my dream, when you appeared in the appearance, it was a phone call and you were in a drunk state. Oh, no. Yeah. And in the beginning, I was not understanding what are you talking about? Because it was not making sense. And so then somehow in my mind, I thought, oh. Because in the conversation in the Lotus Sutra intensive, the awareness of drunkenness and alcohol and all of that was in the atmosphere.

[26:37]

I think my mind labeled it as, oh, this is something related to alcohol. I'm going to get help. So there was like a boundary that was reached. And I thought, I don't know how to respond to this. I was, I tried like this or like this. It didn't work. Then when I went to get help, I woke up and I was thinking then, uh, oh, I should have engaged more. I should have tried to figure it out because then I didn't have anything. So this is one story. And then now it makes me think with the boundaries. I had a very negative experience with my sister because she was fully herself.

[27:38]

And she exploded with a lot of cursing and making signals, gestures with her hand, very negative to me. And she had never done that to me. I know that she has done that in her job and things have happened to her, but I had never experienced that. And I know that I was speechless then, but now I know that She reached my boundary because that's very disrespectful, very. But in that moment, I didn't know to tell her, but I know next time when she talks to me, then I have to talk about the boundary. But so these two stories, I want your feedback.

[28:45]

because you're saying that when you allow others to be fully themselves and then you are fully yourself and you reach the boundary, in my experience, when there is something that is beyond tolerance, then when you set a boundary, you're not allowing that person to be themselves. Like you were gone from the phone call, you were gone. I didn't allow. And my sister, she cannot be fully herself like that with me again. Yeah. You said, which many people say, set a boundary rather than give a boundary.

[29:49]

So I propose to you that in that conversation, you and your sister, that neither one of you were fully yourself. I mean, neither one of you realized it. You said she was fully herself, but I don't think you can be fully herself unless you give yourself fully. And you could have given her a boundary because it was there and you did find it eventually. But before you found your boundary, which I don't know if you really gave it to her as a gift, before she gets the gift of your boundary... She can't be fully herself. That's what I'm saying. So you say she can't be that way again, but I would say you can help her be more fully herself next time by giving your boundary, I would say, as soon as you feel it. As soon as you feel the place where she's coming too far or you're not going far enough, or you, you know, be...

[31:02]

give more energy to your boundaries sooner. So that will help her be who she is fully. But I don't think she can, like Steven was saying earlier, she can't be fully herself if she's being violent. And she can't really be nonviolent all by herself. She needs you to help her by showing her what you find to be violent or what you find to be, uh, pushing on your boundary. You need to tell her about your boundary. She cannot find your boundary by herself. You need to give it to her as a gift. And one way to say a boundary is you cannot be that way anymore. But when you say that, do you mean it as a gift? It's like, you cannot be that way anymore because now I'm talking. When I'm talking to you, you're not that way anymore.

[32:05]

It's me talking now. She cannot be fully herself without you. And part of the way you can help her be fully herself is by saying, You cannot be this way, but another way to say it was, I need you to do this or that. I have limits. I have boundaries. I want to tell you about them. Yeah. That is, in a conscious, calm state, that as a parent, it's... Like, yes, I have to do that. Just like when I remember the name Green last week and when she was speaking, it really touched me because I felt my story. I want to have those words. But when the aggression is coming, the most that I can do is at least I can stay still and not run away or not.

[33:13]

So at least that's the most that I could do that moment. You did what you did, and what you did was perfect, but you didn't realize how perfect it was. And in fact, in order to realize it, we do need to be calm and quiet. We need to remember silence and stillness when we're being attacked. This is what this training is about. It's about learning to be silent and still when we're being attacked. Is that easy to learn? No. Is it necessary to learn it? Yes. The Buddha has learned to remember and receive silence and stillness all the time. including when being attacked. Then, when you are remembering silence and stillness, when you're attacked, you can give a gift of your boundary.

[34:21]

You can put your hand up. You can salute. You can hold your nose. You can say, can I ask a question? You can put your boundary out there as a gift because you remember silence and stillness. The silence and stillness of you is talking and helping the other person remember her silence and stillness. That requires skill. It requires skill and the skill requires training. It requires mindfulness and remembering to try it, to try remembering, and remembering silence and stillness and see how that is. And see how, when you remember it, verify what I just said, that when you remember it, you will be able to be nonviolent in response to the violence. And you'll be happy that you remembered it, and you'll be happy to offer this

[35:28]

Nonviolent boundary. Generously offer a nonviolent boundary to something you feel needs you to express it. For example, violence. I want to give a nonviolent boundary to violence, but I need to be calm and quiet to speak and gesture in that way. In that way. In that way, when you're that way, she will not talk that way anymore. She will talk a new way. There'll be new problems, but she will be changed by your practice. Your practice will change the way she acts. Whether you say, I want you to stop that, or you don't, What you offer will be your limit, your limit, your limit, gift, gift, gift.

[36:31]

But your limit will be given generously and calmly and nonviolently. And she has a chance to meet that. That makes me think of how it's related to the dream is because of fear, because... The drunks, my experience with a drunk is a violence and I don't know what to do. I need help or I need to get away. So to... You do need help. And the help you need is courage and compassion. Courage and compassion. You need to... And the fear may come. The fear may still come. Your own fear. And you can find your relationship with your fear. And sometimes it means that when you find it, you say, guess what?

[37:33]

I'm afraid. I'm feeling afraid. But again, that's given as a gift. It's a kind of boundary. It's you coming to the boundary of your fear and maybe telling somebody about it. And my experience is that when people tell us that they're afraid, it's often not violent. But if they don't honor their fear, they often act violently. Or if they're intoxicated, they use intoxication to push their fear down, then they're a slave of their fear. And they act violently. So part of the calm is to calmly embrace the fear. Calm doesn't push the fear away. It recognizes limits, and in that way, generously gives the limits, and in that generosity, it takes care of the fear.

[38:42]

Yeah. Okay. a lot thank you I'd like to also say briefly that in this intersubjectivity which is like space you know you know each of us subjects is like what it's like the earth we're different we're the earth we're limited forms of the earth and we relate to each other but our relationship with each other is like space We can't get at the relationship between us. We can't hear it. We can't see it. We can't touch it. We can't smell it. We can't taste it. And we can't even think of it. We can think of it, but that doesn't reach it. So part of what we need to do is celebrate this relationship between us. which is completely the relationship between our sensory beings, but the relationship is not a sensory event.

[39:57]

It cannot be seen or heard or smelled or touched or tasted. Like it says in the Heart Sutra, in emptiness, no eyes, no ears, no nose, no tongue, no body, no mind, in the space between the limits of me and the limits of you, in that space, we will realize the truth. In completely including us to our limits, fully myself meeting you fully, we realize that there is this intersubjective conversation going on, which we cannot see or hear So part of what also may help this study is to remember that the truth of others in this intersubjective, the truth of others will come to us in this intersubjective space.

[41:11]

And in order for me to open to that, I need to celebrate and welcome what cannot be seen or heard or smelled or touched or tasted. And in order to meet, in order to fully welcome what cannot be seen or heard or felt or thought, I have to fully be my seeing, hearing, smelling person. But that's not all I have to do. I also have to welcome this unheard and unseen and unsmelled and untouched and untasted and unthought of relationship. In that relationship, we will really do justice for and to each other. Again, we need to fully be ourselves to our limits, and we need to learn to celebrate what is beyond our limits, which we can't see or hear.

[42:31]

Like Keith said, heard melodies are sweet, but those unheard are sweeter. Therefore, ye soft pipes, play on, not to the sensual ear, but more endeared. Pipe to the spirit, ditties of no tone. This is his words, which we can hear, but his words come from the intersubjective reality between him and all beings. His relationship with all beings, from there came these words about his relationship and our relationship with all beings, which is unseen and unheard. Is there another offering?

[43:37]

Yes, Colleen. Yeah. This really sort of goes to the heart of that line, this whole question of boundaries. I know that having boundaries And being fearless and having fear is really a vibration in me, sort of a polarity of opposites that exist. And I know, for example, face-to-face transmission to me is a vital key to being able to actually have conversations with energy. Or I have, in Minnesota, I have some conversations going on and I'm not completely down. There's just not face-to-face transmission.

[44:47]

And so I don't feel okay with it. I don't feel like I will be respected or that I matter. And so that's something in the literature that I really need. And then the other thing is, in order to have control, a little control of my mind or what I'm experiencing, I have had to call on Avokiteshvara from the Lotus Sutra. And I actually read it every night before I go to bed, chapter 25, or the poem of it. And what's interesting is it's allowed me to set down you as my teacher and set down... And I find that it's true that in the book, if you cry out, there is energy that comes there.

[45:51]

And it's protective energy. Because like something I'll perceive as snaky, but then I'll read the Flower Sutra and it'll be like, they'll call it banners sometimes. So it's like a waving energy. It could be a banner or it could be a snake. And so how I read things, and it goes to the heart of God because some things I'm not interested in cavorting with. I don't want to pivot with. I feel like, I don't think so. I think if I pivot, I'm going to end up either a hungry ghost, or I'm going to end up a snake, or I'm going to end up in an owl realm, and I'd just rather opt out. I'd rather just stay in emptiness and be alone with Avlo Ki Teshvara, who will come to me. And so as you can see, there's lots of juice around this. So I guess I'll be open to anything you have to say. Yes. Well, I think you just expressed some limits.

[46:53]

And I support you to do that. And I hope you feel that you have been gracious and generous towards your limits just now. I wish I didn't have them, but I do. But that's not generous, right? Right. But wishing that you didn't have these limits, that's another limit. Right. And I pray that you can be generous towards your wishing that you didn't have the limits you have. That will help you, I hope, to more fully accept your limits. Because you're like other people, you have limits. And you've just told us about yours. And I hope you can continue to do that. I want to say one more thing, and that has to do with the limitlessness of me. And I hired a convicted pedophile to direct one of my plays, and it was against really a lot of people's ideas.

[48:03]

It was kind of against... I mean, he hadn't been hired for a very long time. There were no children in my cast, and he was a genius. And I thought, I want to work with him, and I don't want to be his condemner. He went to jail. It's not my position. And I worked with him. More than once in a play. And it just so happened that he was dying. And it just so happened that he was at my hospice. And it was just so happened that there was an actress who was a nurse who came up to me and said, I can't tell you because a hippo who's down that hall, but you go down that hall. And I went there and I went up to this dying sex offender who I loved and I said, I forgive you. And I don't think I know if I meant it after I said it. I was like, I don't know if I meant that. But I said it and I could see at least in his partner because he I don't know how much he knew, but his partner was really moved by it.

[49:05]

And as I said it, after I said it, his whole body shimmered and I could see he was really a monster. He really was. As he was dying, sometimes you get a flicker of what's there. And it was like shocking. And I knew that if he could, he would reach out and eat my head. It was weird. But I didn't have a limit there because a lot of people wouldn't have hired him. You didn't have a limit. I didn't have a limit. If you don't have a limit, you're not here. You can't be here without a limit. And I hope you can express your limits and realize that that's what you're doing. And thank you very much. Sarah. Hi, Ben.

[50:09]

Hi, Sarah. I don't have anything as dramatic or exciting as that. That was amazing. I was feeling like somehow the metaphor didn't work for me about the atmosphere in the ocean because I'm a biologist and I can't turn it off. So I was thinking about the dissolution of gases in the ocean that nitrogen and oxygen and carbon dioxide all go into the water and dissolve. And, you know, things go the other way too of the ocean dissolving the mountains and breaking things down over time. And so I need another metaphor.

[51:11]

I need to turn my biological science brain off for a little bit. I think I understand the idea of boundaries. But I just start thinking. So thinking is an example of something that has boundaries. What you're thinking meets what you're not thinking at the fullness of your thinking. So you just told us about your thinking. And can you see the limit of your thinking?

[52:14]

And can you express the limit of your thinking, which you just did? Did you see yourself expressing the limit of your thinking? You said, that metaphor doesn't work for me. So that's the limit of working metaphors. Metaphor didn't work. You reached the limit of a working metaphor, and you told us about it. And what I'm saying is that the limit, and that you could have told me that, and maybe you did, as a gift to me and everybody here, that you gave us the gift of the limit of your thinking in relationship to a metaphor. And you know what? I thought about doing it and I was too scared. You did it. I know, but I was going to say that's what I was going to do. I was going to say, you know what? I'm going to practice giving a boundary.

[53:19]

But I was too afraid to say that. But I think that's what you just. You were afraid to say that. Yeah, I was afraid to say that. But you did it. But I did, yeah. But I wasn't afraid to say it. So I'm saying you just did what we've been talking about. You told us about a boundary in your consciousness, in your thinking. You said you got these metaphors over here work and these don't. So the boundary on the working metaphors went right up to this example and didn't work there. You told us about your own, the limits of your mind. And you didn't pretend to be somebody who was different from you at that moment. And also you noticed some fear about acknowledging the teaching in relationship to your mind. But now it's out in the open because you told us about that. And now we can see if we can allow that to be completely.

[54:25]

Thanks for letting me play. You're welcome. Thanks for coming to play. That intersubjective space is a play space. Till not. Somehow you're muted. I don't know what's going on. I still can't hear you. I see your lips moving. The video is not frozen, but I can't hear you.

[55:28]

Yeah, but we have some limits here. Heard melodies are sweet, but those unheard are sweeter. Yuki. Good evening. I don't know where I'm going with this exactly, but the metaphor about earth and sky really did work for me. And what it brought up for me was a thought that, you know, usually when we think about or when I think about earth and sky, I think about something out there at the horizon. But really. earth and sky meet very immediately right in front of me you know it's an immediate thing and there's something about boundaries too where i think of boundaries as a way of saying stop or don't you know back up but just putting the hand up like that allows for it's it's more intimate

[56:53]

It's like in the request for space, we become really intimate. And I just think that's kind of ironic and interesting. Yeah. And intense. And it's really intense. Can you... I agree that when we have limits, and that's that, but when we express them, that's an act which promotes the realization of intimacy. We're actually always intimate with our limits. We actually are limited beings moment by moment. And expressing our limits often is a very dear and precious and intimate moment. Like a story I've told you before, some of you. I was with one of my grandsons when he was about, I don't know, four years old.

[58:00]

And we were in a lake. And he was walking into the lake. And this lake had seaweed in it. So when you walked into the lake, you had to walk through seaweed. And for people who aren't familiar with seaweed, to walk into it feels kind of, you might say, creepy. A lot of people find it creepy to walk with those plants grabbing your ankles and calf and so on. So he was walking into the water. I was a little ways away from him. And he stopped. And his mother said, what's the matter? And he said, I'm having trouble with the plant life. And so that's like a moment, you know, for me, he was... That nonviolent expression of this little boy about his limits, you know, with this plant life, it was a very intimate moment, which...

[59:14]

I remember dearly. And that's going on all day long. And at that moment, I felt very intimate with his limits of his legs with the seaweed. Yeah, I think there's a way that we think about boundaries as creating some space. But really, they don't work that way. They don't create space. They meet space. Yeah. When we don't feel, actually, and when we don't feel enough space, boundaries help us find it. But the boundaries don't create the space. Boundaries are a way we get in touch with space. So again, another one of my grandsons, when he was pretty young, learned the expression, I need space.

[60:23]

So rather than just push other kids away, he was taught to say, I need space. So when he's saying a boundary, by addressing what he's looking for, he wants space, but he's feeling his boundaries. And by saying his boundaries, he might get the space he needs. He might get in touch with the space. We need the space. But without being honest about our boundaries, we get suffocated. But if we use boundaries to push things away, that doesn't make space. But if we use boundaries as a gift... to help us find the space which goes right with the boundary, right at the edge of the boundary of space. But we have to express the boundary to meet the face, the space, and the face.

[61:24]

Thank you. Thank you. Hi, Deb. I wanted to go back to what you said about how we need to fully be ourselves to our limits and celebrate that which is beyond our limits that we can't see, taste, touch, or smell. Celebrate space. It made me think of something that you said to me in recent months, which is, I believe that I didn't need to feel compassion in order to be... Compassionate. Yes. Thank you. And... So that is kind of mysterious to me.

[62:30]

I take it on faith, but I've been practicing that. I think you told me that I could just say the word compassion or say Avalokiteshvara and that was enough. Is that right? It doesn't sound like me. I almost never use the word enough. Oh, okay. That would be good. I don't like to turn good into enough. Right. If you remember the word compassion, that wouldn't be good. But I want to say it's enough. Okay. That was my word, which was not yours. Could I say anything? Yes. I just thought of an example when you said I just say it's possible to be compassionate without feeling like you're being compassionate, right?

[63:33]

And I thought of the example, it's possible that a woman who has breasts and milk in them can give milk to a baby or even to some other grown-up person, that a woman can give breasts from her milk without thinking that she's being compassionate, without feeling like she's being compassionate. But that milk is being given freely and generously and compassionately. But she might have no idea that she's being compassionate. And the whole world might be celebrating her compassion, but she doesn't even think of that. But you could also think, this is pretty compassionate of me to be doing this. Right. But you don't have to think it. And sometimes you are compassionate and you don't think it, but you're still compassionate. And maybe sometimes you're compassionate and you think you're compassionate. That's okay. It's just not necessary. Yeah.

[64:36]

I almost never think I'm being compassionate. And someone might say, well, that's because you never are. But I really don't. But I do think I always remember to be compassionate. A lot. And I remember that I want to be, but I don't go around saying, well, I am. Right. Well, my question relates to my perception of the experience. For me. I feel like I understand something when I feel it in my whole body. And sometimes I can be, I think, so generous to a situation or myself that maybe I have met my limit. But maybe I'm getting stuck in the idea that I really am doing it when I'm feeling it.

[65:40]

You seem to be, yeah. So that is getting stuck. You don't need to feel, perceive it. To hold on to the idea that you need to feel something in order to do it, that's being stuck on that idea. That's an idea. It's not a feeling. It's the idea that you need. So again, you can love someone wholeheartedly without feeling like you love them. And you can have an experience which fills your body, and you have no idea that the experience is filling your body. But you could have the idea. It's optional. Right. It's optional. Just like I say, you know, Buddhas who are truly Buddhas do not think, I'm truly a Buddha. But they are. But they might think that. They usually don't.

[66:40]

Well, you could feel like you're being compassionate. It's all right to feel that. But if you took away the feeling, you'd still be compassionate. If you were compassionate and you felt like you were, if you didn't have that feeling, you still would be compassionate. Just like if you offer somebody some milk and you give it to them, you can think, I just gave them some milk. But you don't have to think that you gave them the milk. You can give it to them without thinking of it. You can give it to them while you're thinking, it's a beautiful day today, and you hand them the milk. You never think you're doing it. But you can also think, I am handing them the milk. That's okay, too. It's not necessary. I see. I can see where I'm getting stuck. It's not so much that I'm going around thinking I am compassionate, but I'm thinking, wow, this feels good. It's a version of that. Pardon? Which is a version of that, I think.

[67:44]

Yeah, it's a version of that. But you can also, whatever it is that feels good, you can feel it without thinking that it feels good. Yeah. And I suppose not put a limit on it by thinking I shouldn't be feeling that way. But you can still put a limit on it, but then just realize what you did. I just put a limit on it, and I'm totally limiting it, and I'm completely allowing myself to limit it. I'm not telling anybody not to limit anything. I'm saying limits are really an essential ingredient in realizing awakening. and being afraid of being limited or thinking we're supposed to be unlimited. Well, we are unlimited. That's part of what we are, is unlimited. But in order to realize that, you have to do the hard work of being a limited person who has, this is enough. This is not enough. I don't want to do this. This is too much.

[68:46]

This is too little. Being that person completely you realize that the unlimited part of your life, which is your relationship with everybody. Okay. Thank you. You're welcome. Hello, May. You're muted. I am unmuted. Can you hear me? Okay. Well, this limit and boundary has been pondered for a while since last year. This time, I remember I have a conversation with Tim B. You know, he practiced in Minnesota for some reason.

[69:48]

And we used a metaphor about salt you know feel like everybody is a salt and then when the salt meet ocean you know the salt is dissolved feel like finally open you dissolve you you you get in touch this inter being and then the the next stage is about you interact with the other salt and then you still keep the boundary. So I can figure out how to be melting at the same time, also have a boundary. You know, that picture, I often have this image about the ice cubes in the water or ocean. The ice cube is water itself, right? But it's frozen. has a clear boundary and really sharp edges.

[70:52]

But are everybody's ice cubes? And then we melt. We belong to the same ocean. But how do these ice cubes relate to each other? Well, the melting occurs at the limit of the ice cube. If the ice cube melts, then we don't have any ice cubes anymore. But as long as you've got an ice cube, at the limit of the ice cube is where the ice cube meets the non-frozen water. That's where they meet. The boundary is going to disappear. Pardon? Well, that boundary is going to disappear. Boundaries are not permanent. It's just that where the boundary ends is where the boundary meets not what it is. It meets the other. That's where the meeting is occurring. That's where the change, that's where the intimacy is at the boundaries.

[71:59]

The unfrozen water is also limited. It's limited to being unfrozen. And it meets the frozen water. So I often, I just feel like all this world has been saying to me right now, suddenly it's a boundary and a threshold and a door and also transformation and they're changing. So something is changing in that boundary. So it's actually, many things happen on that boundary or the sky meets the the ocean, actually that economy actually shrink to infinity. Everything, all coherent things have boundaries. And in order to realize the relationship

[73:02]

between one limited thing and another limited thing, the limited things need to be fully limited. So the ice cube has to maintain the boundary in order to keep that? No, don't maintain it. Be the ice cube it is. But ice cubes usually don't resist being this kind of ice cube they are. They are limited. but they don't seem to resist it. Whereas human beings, we have problems with our limits. So if we could be like an ice cube, we would realize enlightenment, awakening. Ice cubes are fully an ice cube as long as they're an ice cube. We are this person as long as we're this person. But Sorry, my son was jumping on the bed right now.

[74:16]

Okay, thank you very much. Okay, so be an ice cube itself is compassionate. Accept it. The way the ice cube is, if we were like an ice cube, the only way for us to be like an ice cube is to practice compassion. And to let ourselves be who we are as a gift. To let ourselves be limited people, which we are. And not only that, but for me to be a limited person, I need to interact with other limited people to help me realize my limits. Because I might think I accept my limits, but other people show me that maybe I don't. And maybe there's a time that I've already become a jellyfish, right? So this ice cube can become a jellyfish. And then the form is... But right now, you have to accept not being a jellyfish.

[75:19]

That's your job. And if you can accept not being a jellyfish completely, you will be able to have really good relationships with jellyfish, right? Lovely. Thank you so much. You're welcome. Hello, Ram. Hello, Gayatri. Good evening. First, I want to say I love the story of your grandson. It's just such an endearing, sweet story about I'm having trouble with the plant life. It was so moving. I've heard it twice, and both times it just touched me so deeply. It's such a sweet story. Thank you for sharing that. um so the um so there was this um this thing that came to my mind when i was listening to all of this about boundaries and intersubjectivity so i got um so i used to work in healthcare technology for many years i i did that for about 14 15 years and then

[76:30]

it didn't work for me. I wasn't enjoying my job at the time. My kids were young. And so I decided to quit, but I didn't know what was next. And I was very inspired by nonviolence as a tool for social political change. And I was very inspired by people like Gandhi and Nelson Mandela and all these people. And so I Googled nonviolence in Los Angeles. We were in Los Angeles at the time. And I came across this organization called, at the time they were called the Center for Nonviolent Communication and Education in LA. And now they're called Echo Parenting. But anyway, so I reached out to this director and I said, hey, you know, what do you do? I'm interested in this work of nonviolence. How can I You know, is there anything I could do? Can I volunteer? Because I don't have a job. I have nothing else to do now. So I said, let me see what I could do. And so she said, oh, well, we teach nonviolent parenting.

[77:34]

So I was like, huh? I said, you know, is there any other kind of parenting? Like, what do you mean nonviolent parenting? You know, and she said it so beautifully. She said, you know, because when you define violence as anything that hurts someone, the mind heart spirit of a child you know and then you you frame by violence in that broad way and then you look at so many parenting strategies that are so violent you know in the way we speak in a way we relate with children so anyway so she then she said hey do you want to get certified to become a parent educator you know we're just starting this one year long program And I'll give you a scholarship and, you know, train you to become a parent educator. So I said, sure. You know, and I started to and it was such a profound thing for me because I really started looking at how I was with my own children and it became a practice. And even though they didn't call it mindfulness, there was so much of mindfulness involved in that whole approach of parenting because you have to be fully present as a parent when you're relating with your child.

[78:42]

And it's like these two beings coming together. So anyway, so all that happened, and then I got certified to become a parent educator. And then I started teaching these classes, and then I devised this exercise, which I thought was a really good, now that I think about it. So I devised this exercise, which is inspired by Tai Chi, actually. So I had the parents, you know, I would get them to be in pairs, and I'd have them put their hands against each other. And I'd say, okay, you know, Push your partner's hand to where you want it to move. And they're going to try to push your hand to where they want it to move. And they get into this kind of a fight. And they go through that for a few minutes. And I have them change partners and do it. And then I say, okay, now pause. And then come fully into your body. Become fully present in your breath, in your body. And then do the same thing. And this time, just move. Meet your partner where they are, moment by moment.

[79:44]

and move your hands, feeling and sensing and being fully present with the other person. So it's that intersubjective kind of a meeting. And then of course, it's really beautiful because it's a nice little dance that happens. And when you feel into another person's palms, and you see how different it is from one person to another, and you just, you soften against that person's palm as they're moving and you're moving and there's no leader, there's no follower. And somehow something really beautiful happens in that meeting of those palms with each other in full presence. And so I just, I was thinking that's a really, it's a metaphor for this practice of being fully yourself and meeting another person and allowing that person that boundary and you've got your boundary and the two boundaries are meeting. and you're dancing together in full harmony. So I use that as a metaphor for the violence and the force that we use on children and the manipulation and the bribing and the threatening and all of that, which creates so much stress.

[80:53]

And the parents say that after this exercise, they say, oh my God, the first time was so stressful. And the second time felt more harmonious, right? And because it's a physical experience that they're having as they do this exercise. But I thought that was a similar idea of being fully yourself and meeting another person. Exactly where they are. To the limits of your fingertips. Yes. To the limits of your skin. And you sense it too, right? All the little, little movements and some of them are more jerky. I don't know. It's just very interesting to do that exercise because you have to be fully available for what's happening in that moment. So anyway, I just wanted to share that as a metaphor for this discussion. Thank you. Thank you, Rev. Thank you, everyone.

[81:57]

May the merit of our meeting extend to every being in place and may we together with all beings realize the true nature of all things. Good night.

[82:13]

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