And we're talking about ordaining people to be priests. So when I came to Zen Center, I didn't think of becoming a priest right away, but after I was here for a while, it occurred to me that I wanted to become a priest because my teacher was a priest, and I got ordained quite quickly after that. I had already done a couple of Tussauds practice periods, And then later it has become kind of like, you might say, a requisite to become a priest if you've done two Tassajara practice periods. And before doing a Tassajara practice period, it's kind of required to do a practice period here or at the city centers. A lot of people think, you know, I remember I was guest student manager at the city center I moved in there in 1969, and people would come from all over America to practice with Suzuki Roshi at Zen Center, and they'd come in, they'd meet, they'd be guest students, and I would take care of them, and they would tell me how enthusiastic they were to practice Zen, and I would give them a place to sleep.

[01:21]

Oftentimes, when we got to Prezazen, I noticed that my guest student wasn't there. And it wasn't in a Zen door, it wasn't in a meditation hall. So I would go and look in the guest student area and find them sleeping and ask them, you know, do they want to come to meditation? And they'd say, maybe, no, I don't want to. I changed my mind. I don't want to practice meditation. Somehow, in the evening, oftentimes it seems more attractive. Or in the afternoon around tea time, it seems being a Zen monk sounds pretty interesting, pretty cool. At 4.30 in the morning sometimes it's not that interesting to get up. And that's in the city center where they actually heat the rooms. So to get up in the dark and the cold isn't necessarily that interesting for most people.

[02:21]

Most people would like to stay in a warm place and get more rest until it's light and warmer and then maybe they'd like to get up and have breakfast or something So I noticed anyway that a lot of people who thought they wanted to do Zen practice, when they actually experienced it, they said, this isn't for me. So anyway, we do have a lot of, not a lot, but we have considerable preparation we'd like people to experience before they get into a fairly intense training. And again, most people cannot come to Zen Center and practice meditation intensely to become priests. It's just that some of the people who practice that are priests, who want to be priests, and some don't. But some of them who don't want to become priests, after a while they change their mind, and they do. And again, some people would like to be priests the day they arrive.

[03:24]

They want to be priests. Some people have wanted to be priests since they were kids. So, there are various backgrounds, but everybody that becomes ordained has to make quite an effort to practice and get experience in practice before becoming a priest. And so these people did. And... Yeah, and those of you who are at ceremonies could see that they have been practicing because you could see that they could perform the ceremony. quite well. They're actually already fairly well trained so that they can go through a thing like that and stay present and perform and express themselves because they're trained. You could imagine it might be difficult for somebody just to walk in off the street and do what they did during the ceremony. But because they've been practicing for a while, they can actually perform that they can demonstrate that they can be mindful and present in the midst of a kind of intense situation.

[04:32]

Some people, when they get in a situation like that, they go blank. They can't remember what day of the week their name is. It's actually quite intense there. And you have to be quite present to remember where you are and which thing to do next. It may look easy to see when someone does it quite skillfully. Try it yourself. You may find out, wow, I forgot what I was supposed to do. My legs aren't moving. Or I can't speak. Various surprising things might happen. unless you've trained at this kind of thing. So the negatives, and so all that preparation can be seen as, can be viewed as an exclusive situation because not everybody can train that long.

[05:36]

So the people who are doing this in some sense are an exclusive group. And so part of what I'd like to do tonight, the dance I'd like to do tonight is a dance of the intense training that is involved in Zen practice and so the practice of those who might be interested in it, but the situations in their life doesn't allow them to, or who aren't interested in it, but they are interested in Zen, but they just don't want to do this priest training. in any way excluded from the thing which they either have practical problems about doing internally or externally or which they aren't interested in. In other words, are you excluded from something that you're not interested in? That's another part of it. So it's really a complex issue.

[06:38]

Since this is a dance class, see if we can dance with this. And I welcome your... Your feedback, because most of you are not priests, so I'd like to know, do you feel excluded from the priesthood? Do you feel like the people who have been initiated are an exclusive? Do you feel, yeah, excluded from it? How do you feel about it? How do the priests feel about it? How do the lay people feel about it? I'd just like to open it up and welcome you to express yourself on this Here comes an expressor. I'm glad there's no microphone this time.

[07:39]

Maybe I'm not glad. You can hear me? Okay. So... First of all, I just wanted to congratulate everyone. I'm really quite happy for you. It was a beautiful, beautiful ceremony and very moving. What came up for me during the ceremony is a line that a friend of mine had said, who is a professional bike racer. He's, I think, 42 now, and he trains here in the U.S. He hasn't really raced in Europe, where the standards are a lot higher. There's other things you need to do to race in Europe anyway, but... Here's a great quote that he says, which is, train with the legs that you have, not with the legs that you wish you had. So maybe it's the knees that you wish you had.

[08:45]

I do see it as an exclusive training. I do. But I think that that idea has more to do with my past life experience coming forth into this new situation and I also see that these people have just trained so well for so long and have been so welcoming and supportive to me in my practice as a new practitioner so I don't really know what else to say Did you say that the ceremony was inspiring to you? It was, yeah. In what way was it inspiring? Well, because I really did feel part of the ceremony. And I realized... really just an amazing cohesive group and that there are many things and many causes and conditions that come together to support the whole process of priesthood and it's not like something that anyone can do.

[09:59]

You know, I asked another friend of mine who is an Ironman triathlete woman who is the, I think she's the world champion still in her age group, but she's done 17 Ironman triathlons. And I asked her a few years ago, I think maybe she had done like 10 or 12 or something, and I said, I said, Jerry, how is it that you've done 10 Ironman triathlons? And she said, well, you know, there's a lot. I love it. I love the training, and I'd love to do it. an amazing thing to do. And then I asked this person again, more recently after she had done like her 17th one, and I said, how is it that you've done 17 Ironman tracking lines? And she looked at me and she said, I don't know. I don't know. And she said, genetics or my family, I don't know.

[11:05]

Thank you. Somehow this is a question that I've sat with a lot over the last 20 years of practice, because I think at times I've thought about becoming a priest because of my heartfelt connection to the Dharma and to the community. From a sort of real point of view, I never saw that that would dovetail, or that my commitment to doing that would override the other things that I was doing.

[12:10]

So one of the issues was, how can I practice in the world so that my practice leads everything else I'm doing? And I have felt so supported by you and other people who have committed to becoming a priest and sort of really continuing the tradition of Zen Center so that I've always had to give to you in different ways. But I always sort of feel like I'm missing something, you know, and missing the transmission part of it or... The depth, I think, and the... just the level of dedication and commitment. You feel like you're missing a certain level of dedication and commitment.

[13:17]

Yes. This is just my view, but I do sometimes think of the future and I kind of wonder about who's going to carry on the tradition in the future. I wonder about that sometimes. Down in the garden this afternoon, one of the people I was walking with is my granddaughter. And we went into the little seed house. And in the seed house there's a Buddha with a baby in the lap. Is that right? And she went and said, she said, oh look, the Buddha, the baby Buddha.

[14:24]

And she said, this is six years old, right? This is like, and I don't think this is particularly precocious. I think six-year-olds can get this. This is the adult Buddha, the mama Buddha. And then she said, and then the baby Buddha will grow up to be the mama Buddha, and the mama Buddha will go away. And then the mama Buddha will have another baby Buddha, and then the baby Buddha will grow up to be a mama Buddha. That's then transmission, right? And the babies will become the mothers and fathers. And then they will have babies, and then the babies will grow up, and then they'll go away. So I look in the future and I think, who's going to do that? and I look at them, I can see and I think, so and [...] so, they're great people, but they're kind of young.

[15:30]

You know, young in terms of practice. You know, like, Stephen's not so young in years, and Catherine's not so young in years, and Deirdre aren't so young in years, but they haven't actually been doing these trainings for so long. So for them to become like, I don't know what, Tonto of Zen Center, of Green Gulch, it's kind of a big responsibility. Are they ready to do something like that? And ready means, will people support them to be a leader in a big community? And some people will, but some people won't. And if you've got a big community, that's a lot of people who won't. Can you get the picture? So like if Catherine became Tonto or Jane became Tonto next week, I mean, they probably wouldn't accept.

[16:31]

They'd probably say, I just finished being head monk. This is too soon for me. I'm halfway through. And Deirdre would probably even feel more surprised if suddenly she was asked to be the head of practice at Green Gulch. Right? Wouldn't you? Yeah. And some people would think, how cool, how cool that right after she got ordained, she got to practice at Green Gulch. That's really amazing. Zen Center is really, like, adventurous. Or perhaps we could make Devon or Jolena head of practice at Green Gulch. But they probably wouldn't accept, I would guess. Would you think that was strange for you to... Yeah. And some people would think this is really cool. But some people would think this is really bizarre. This is like, doesn't make any sense to ask 20-year-olds to be in charge of the community.

[17:32]

They need more, we should ask people to have more experience. Some people would feel that. Now, even if you ask a 60-year-old to be the leader of the practice, still some people were going to say, that person is not developed enough to be a leader. Some people will think that and say it. And they'll say it. Even if the person's 90, they'll say it. That guy's senile. How can you have... I know. No matter how... If you're young, you're too young. If you're right in the middle, you're too arrogant. If you're old, you're senile. Somebody's not going to like you being a leader in a spiritual community. The main thing is, can you stand it? the criticism and be able to stand it. And you need a lot of practice of being attacked and have people criticize you for years to be able to stand to be in a leadership position because when you're in a leadership position you get more for anything you do off.

[18:42]

And the worst part is it oftentimes isn't given to you but it's lurking in the neighborhood somewhere, and then it really gets you, because people won't tell you what it is, and you feel it. It's really hard to be a Buddha, and yet a child can go in and see, Mama Buddha, Baby Buddha. Mama Buddha, then you can have a Baby Buddha. Baby Buddha, then he grows up to be a Mama Buddha. Then the old Buddha goes away. A child can see there has to be a mama, a daddy, babies. In other words, the mama and daddy are kind of like the leaders of the babies. They try to teach the babies how to walk and brush their teeth and cross their legs and meditate and study and take care of the kitchen. We had this wonderful meal yesterday.

[19:45]

But the people who did that were trained. Most of them, when they first went in the kitchen there, they did not know very much, and now they are quite skillful. After years of hard work, they can do these wonderful things. So again, actually you wouldn't put, people are not putting me in the kitchen as the head of the kitchen. They don't think of that because they know I'm not trained well enough to be head of the kitchen. Huh? Broccoli and brown rice? Every meal? Fine. I can cook broccoli. So anyway, and also people don't think, well, let's make him head of the farm. They know I'm not very experienced in farming.

[20:48]

It's fine for me to work on the farm, and I'm allowed to hula-hole, because I've done it quite a few times, so they say, well, he kind of knows how to do that. I'm allowed in the kitchen to wash vegetables and wash pots. People kind of know I can do that. But they wouldn't make me Tenzo unless it was understood. He's the Tenzo, but he's not going to do any cooking. He's just going to be walking around. He's the Tenzo, but he's going to be washing the rice and washing the vegetables. And that's all he's going to do. He doesn't even know how to order yet. the food. So we can make adjustments, but basically I'm saying that a person sort of has to grow up in a tradition in order to be a leader in it. And I would like, you know, in some sense to have gazillions of successors, but I look at people and I say, well, they need more training before they can be a successor.

[21:51]

I see some years between where they are and what it takes for them to do with a certain kind of skill and presence that goes with the formal transmission. And I actually would like to see all these people grow up and be in that position if they wish to be. I would love it. But it's not up to me for you to do that, it's up to you. And you may not be interested. Like I might like so-and-so to be, you know, to grow up to be a daddy Buddha or a mommy Buddha. He goes, no, this is, I'd love this person to be a mommy Buddha. But this person doesn't want to do this stuff. And then somebody else, I don't particularly care if this person's a mommy Buddha, but they do the thing and they grow up to be a mommy Buddha. And I have to say, well, there it is.

[22:55]

You've got to go with this. This person is doing it. And part of it is a person who's not any longer trying to get to be a mommy Buddha. It takes a lot of years maybe to do the practice and get to a point where you're not really trying to become a successor anymore. And that's one of the times. the teacher feels like, oh, now the person's ready. Now that they aren't trying to get anything, now it's time to give it to them. So I feel this like a I would like to see this happen more and more, and yet I also have to see there's a space between where the person's at and the performance that they can do now and the performance they can do there. And I would like the gap, but I don't feel like pushing the person, and I don't feel like coaxing the person. I feel like supporting them in whichever direction they want to go,

[23:58]

And yeah, so that's kind of, you know. And in some sense, we're missing something if we can't find something to get into like that, because we have that potential to work on something, really into it. And I think in your work, you're probably right out there in the front. I don't know if you have a teacher in your work. You're kind of a teacher in your work. And you probably look at the people you work with and you'd like to see some of them come up to where you are, I would guess. They can't jump right into my job yet. They'd have to come along before they could do my job. It's kind of like... And it shouldn't be perfect. It shouldn't be like they're going to do it exactly like you. like you, and yet you feel like they're mature enough.

[25:03]

So that's how I felt about what you're saying, that what could happen to you such that you would evolve that way? And in some sense, if you don't, there is a gap. Something's missing. But something missing doesn't mean that you're trying to get rid of that something missing. It's good for you to feel like that, that there's something missing, and for somebody else to feel like the people who are missing are the people to bring along, if they want to. What do you say? A little bit of feeling left out.

[26:05]

Left out, uh-huh. In Zen tradition where lay practice and monastic practice would diverge in terms of commitment and transmission. Is it just sort of like um yes but just can you just say something about that left out piece or does that just go back to the face that you're talking about and what you're saying that's my dedication and my Does the space sort of get either held open or filled in so that I don't feel left out by a continual commitment to practice, regardless of what it's called? I have a lot of responses to that, but before I give them, how are you guys doing?

[27:32]

Huh? Individually. Huh? Pardon me? Yes, Michael. Okay. Okay. Yes. Okay. Will you say something, Alan? Okay. Okay. Yes? I would like to talk about growing up with my family, so that people can really be in it.

[29:12]

I was raised as a rapper. You never found that thing? What do you mean by that thing? Whether it be practice, or business, or whatever it is, to develop a degree, a great degree of community in that field. That hasn't happened for you in your life yet. Yeah, I don't think so. So, that's the problem. Yeah, yeah. It's something missing that you feel. And so if I may, what I feel that we're talking about here is that in some way we sense a lack of intimacy with something.

[30:26]

And there's a number of things we could feel a lack of intimacy with, but one of the things we could feel a lack of intimacy with is a particular Zen form or Zen. So in Zen Center, in a sense, there's a number of Zen lineages in Zen Center because there's a number of people who are representatives of the Zen lineage, but each person is a different lineage. All the people who have become successors at Zen Center is a different lineage. Does that make sense? So part of what I feel, one way I feel might make it clear is that People can be intimate in a variety of ways. Again, like a mother and a child can be intimate. A lot of mothers and children are intimate. And that serves the maturing of the child and the maturing of the mother as a person.

[31:35]

And some lovers are intimate. Some lovers are not really intimate. I mean, they're intimate physically, but if you ask them, they don't feel... A lot of lovers would say, no, I don't feel intimate with my lover. We have sex, or we're in the same bed, but I don't feel like he's actually open to me. I don't feel like he's listening to me. I don't feel intimate with him. I would love to feel intimate with him. I feel something missing in my intimacy with him. Right? You know that. You can be in bed with somebody for years and still feel something's missing in the intimacy, right? And sometimes we feel like, we feel like, and we even can demonstrate some realization of intimacy. I think a lot of mothers and children can demonstrate some intimacy.

[32:46]

Like the fact that children get toilet trained is, I think, a testimonial to intimacy. Not always. Because sometimes the children are brutalized into being toilet trained. But a lot of mothers find that if you're rough with the kids, they'll just keep wetting their bed for longer. It's better to be kind to them and gentle with them around this intimate matter in order to help them not wet their bed. So actually a lot of mothers, I think, and a lot of fathers, actually are fairly successful in realizing children and the fact that the child grows up to be a fairly healthy young person is partly due to a realization of intimacy. Now, in Zen Center, this tradition is a tradition where the senior person or the current generation of the tradition does not usually toilet train the people.

[33:48]

They don't need it. They will work that out. The person doesn't help them and also doesn't help them sexually, doesn't get in bed with them. That's part of our tradition. We don't have sex. But this tradition is about being as intimate as people who have sex would like to be. Like a lot of people have sex but are not, they feel something's missing. They're trying to, maybe both of them are sincerely trying to realize intimacy through being together sexually. And they both feel that that's really what they want to be doing here, not just having pleasure for themselves, but being devoted to and serving the other person in a beneficial way. A lot of people feel that way, but still it's difficult. And so they feel something's missing.

[34:49]

I think it's the same in Zen practice. But in Zen practice we have different forms to work with. We have bodies, but we use them differently. Otherwise Well, I guess if all the teachers only had one student for sure, then maybe it would be okay. It's just only one student. But if you can have more than one student, you kind of have to have some limits on what the forms are. And so the traditional forms, I think, are pretty good. Because people don't mind me being, if I use these forms, people do not mind me being intimate with, for example, Frederick. Because they know, because of the form we're using, they know that they could have the same form. And if they see me being intimate with Frederick, offering him incense, or bowing to him or with him, they know they can do the same form.

[35:52]

And they know that they can use the same form. And then doing that form, you can close the gap in the intimacy, but it's pretty clear what you're going to use to close the gap. And it's pretty clear that people feel okay about you bowing together and sitting together and eating together and offering incense and discussing Dharma and adjusting each other's clothes. People feel, yeah, that's okay. That's okay for them to do that. And if you have a spouse, your spouse feels okay about it too, maybe. So the form allows us to be intimate in ways that kind of other people can support. Forms of intimacy, some kinds of experimentation don't work very well, except, you know, like if you're married to somebody. And even then, people have been married but still feel like, I have not yet realized intimacy in my life.

[36:55]

I want to, but it's something missing. So I kind of feel like this is what we're here for in human life. besides just reproducing and living a certain number of years, the special thing we can do while we're alive is actually realize intimacy, realize enlightenment. But it's difficult and I think you're You're expressing all of our feeling. But even if I feel that I've gone through all these and completed the process, it's not like then this intimacy is done. There's still more. It's like there's endless exercising and not exactly closing more and more and more and more, but reiterating it, doing it again and again.

[37:59]

and still having maybe some feeling of missing. Maybe the thing is, after you play the forms all the way to the end of the traditional possibilities, at that moment you feel like, well, I've done it. But my experience is that every time I do some of these, they get deeper. When I first went through some of these forms, which, again, are really elaborate and took me a long time to be able to do them, a lot of effort, like months and months of practice to be able to do some of these things. When I went through the ceremony of becoming an ancestor, after it was over, I could hardly remember what happened. or a couple weeks later, if you ask me what all the different steps, I couldn't remember them, even though I was able to go through it. Since that time, I've gone through the ceremony about 15 times. And one time I did four in a month.

[39:03]

And by the time I did those four, I felt like this little intimacy machine, like just cranking out this intimacy. But still, since then, When I do these ceremonies, they get more. They get deeper. They get clearer and clearer. And sometimes I think, it would be nice to live a little longer because things are actually getting clearer. If I would die tomorrow, I would be grateful that I lived this long and was able to do what I've done. But if I could do this ceremony ten more times, it would be clearer. And the clarity of it, the intimacy of it, is, I think, what it's all about. And I think we all, I think, I do too, feel a wish. I don't feel a wish so much to actually like completely. I feel the wish to do it deeper and [...] deeper.

[40:09]

And I think that's my longing, is just to do it deeper. But there's never an end to it. So if you're longing for the deepening of the intimacy, unless by chance everybody became intimate with everybody, then I think you'd say, well, even though I still have longing, I guess we don't have to work on it anymore. So I have it, I think we all have it, a longing for not so much complete intimacy, but the longing for the continued work of using human form as a vehicle to overcoming duality in human life. So I think... I think there it is and I think we should take care of it.

[41:11]

And sadness is part of the grease that makes the wheel roll forward. It's part of it. But as I said a while ago, quoting Jung, it's better to look at the longing than the thing you're longing for. take care of the longing for intimacy rather than trying to get the intimacy. That will fuel the work, the intimacy work. So please continue. You're welcome. Sarah, did you want to come up? Sarah Jane, you want to come up? See, that's a form. Sarah? Yeah, that's a form. I guess I don't have a very well-formed question. I must have had a comment. These are the legs you have? I don't know your name.

[42:18]

I'm sorry. Susan. Susan was up here. I heard her ask a question, or like a further elaboration of her question. Yes. That described feelings. left out. There was the part about something missing, and then later there was a part about being left out. I kind of went on this riff about intimacy, and ceremonies, and relationships, and various kinds of intimacy. And when you were describing them, they sounded very priestly. I mean, the forms that you were describing, you use Frederick as an example, right? Like offering incense and bowing, which is something we all do with each other. But then... there's these deeper and deeper forms that I think are kind of... I mean, from my position, they seem like that's kind of reserved for the folks who need to become priests.

[43:22]

That's the priest thing that I see right now. Well, it's available to priests, but again, the newly ordained priests, not yet. And one of the successors to me is Leslie James. She's a successor to me. And she's not a priest. Because of her practice, it seemed to me that she was... The condition was such that she could do these ceremonies with me, even though she wasn't a priest. And that people would accept her doing these ceremonies with me, even though she wasn't a priest, because of the long years of practicing together. Now she coincidentally has been doing all these practice periods at Tatsuhara, which are a result of me feeling that she was mature enough

[44:22]

to be able to do these forms. But she did, except for the fact that she didn't have a shaved head, and she didn't have priest robes in the ceremony, except for those forms, she did the same forms. Except for one ceremony, which is to receive, to have the precepts transmitted to her so that she could transmit them. She did not want to do that part. She does not want to serve that function. And that function is the first. But she did the other part of the ceremony. But Yeah, so conceivably, other lay people could do this, but they would have to do... In my case, they would have to do something with me that the community supported that was... demonstrating in this world intimacy to both of us and that the community could see it well actually the community wouldn't have to agree I could possibly feel like this person is mature and the community say we don't see and it was you know aside from the difficulty the social difficulty it's not against the rules to transmit to somebody who generally people feel is not ready

[45:56]

But I'm just saying that the forms of practice that Leslie and I practiced together were such, and she's a layperson, were such that people felt like it made sense to people that she would do this. And some people said, but she's unusual, and she is, partly because she did so many practice periods. But somebody else, if they wished for whatever reasons not to become ordained, and they trained that way then somehow they could also do the same forms that the priests do, but they wouldn't be a priest. But it would make sense. They would have the ability to do them with the presence by training these priest forms. If they could get the same training somehow, or same ability to be present with the forms, a person who wasn't a priest could do it. It's just that... And in other areas of life, like...

[46:58]

brain surgery, neurosurgery, rocket science, various other things where people's lives are at stake. There's a train that's involved before you do certain operations. And I would say those are parallel to what we're doing here. And it might be possible in those cases too to vary on the theme But the main criterion is not really, you know, you wouldn't have to be a priest. And when we did the ceremony, and I discussed this with lots of people, and the prime example in Zen history is the sixth ancestor of Zen received Dharma transmission, and he wasn't a priest. And then I asked Suzuki Roshi's son about it, and he said, yes, but he was a very unusual the sixth ancestor of Zen was a very unusual person.

[48:04]

He was the sixth ancestor of Zen. There's only one. A rare individual, but when he received Dharma transmission, he was not a priest, and his teacher told him to not public for a long time and he hid for fourteen years or for sixteen years. He hid because although he could be intimate with his teacher, he was not yet ready to appear in public as a teacher. He had to mature in some other way and then he became a priest. So there is this possibility of variation But usually the simplest way is to do it as a priest because the forms of being a priest, to work on those, so it flows into the final aspects of the training.

[49:05]

But a layperson could theoretically do it. So they aren't really excluded in the end. It's just that I would say it's harder to walk the lay path to the same level than to walk the priest path where you have lots of other people supporting you in the forms. But it's theoretical, not theoretically, there are examples of it. We have one at Zen Center and we have the sixth ancestor and then also there's lots of lay Zen teachers in Asia. But it's harder to go that way because the forms are not as clear. I wonder if I could ask another question. Would that be okay? This was the question that I had when I first, when you first brought up all these topics for discussion.

[50:10]

I was thinking, I think you mentioned, you mentioned people who They wanted to commit, but didn't want to commit to priest training. They wanted to study Zen, but they didn't want to commit to priest training. A lot of lay people come and they say, is there some other way I can make a deeper commitment besides the way you're training priests? So you mentioned variations of people and their relationships to training. Interestingly, what came up for me was the people who long for training, but not necessarily in Zen. I was wondering if that's where I fall. Like, I'm really appreciating the training that I'm getting here. And I sometimes just wish it was in something else. Which is another way of saying...

[51:11]

Like, fundamental training that I'm receiving that I'm deeply grateful for. And even, like, becoming a, like, there's an appeal to the idea of becoming a priest and receiving this really intense, intimate training. And it's like, it's a form that I haven't you know it's not the same form of like you go to college and you find a teacher or an advisor or you you know even uh you know studying to be a rocket scientist maybe i mean it's it's a it's a special thing and it's really um held in high regard here here I really, really appreciate that. But you'd rather be in a different framework than possible? Well, no, it's not even that. It's like there's some part of my heart that is so moved by the practice, and I want it to be like this inspired heart, go do the thing that it really needs to be doing.

[52:25]

And I don't know if that thing is... You know, monastic practice. So it's an interesting meeting of two things. Now I'm thinking about how intimate I want to get. How intimate do you want to get? I don't know how to say. Five? Is that one to ten? I don't know. Okay. But I think it's relevant to this discussion, my thought. Because I've met you and I've witnessed how you hold this practice, which is your vocation, it's been really inspiring to me.

[53:27]

this wise person that I have held in a lot of regard for a long time when you want to be a master at whatever you do a poet or a car mechanic or a brain surgeon you don't need to find a poet or a car mechanic or a brain surgeon you need to find somebody who can master what they do and study with that person because that's how you learn So there's a little bit of like this personal, you know, you as you that I find compelling because of how you have lived your life and how you do what you do with such respect and wisdom. So it's interesting that I feel like it's personal respect for you that extends into the forms, and it comes from the forms.

[54:39]

I wonder how that affects when people decide to become priests with you. I feel like that sometimes plays into it. They picked you, not somebody else here. And, you know, so there's like an element of this personal responsibility to build your lineage because you're you. I don't know. I guess that's not a very complete thought, but it was just coming up for me. There's an element of lots of personalities in this life. Yeah. And I appreciate it, mostly. So thanks. Thank you, thank you. I also wanted to say just a couple things that came up while you were there.

[55:46]

I heard that Arthur Rubinstein, the piano player, wanted to be either a historian or a novelist That's where he wanted to be intimate. But I don't know if he did ever write anything much. But in the meantime, he played the piano, and he got fairly intimate with it. I think he wanted to have his intimacy with writing, but I don't know if he ever got it there. But he seems, it looks like he almost got some there in the piano playing. I mean, it looks like it. And Mike Dixon, the person who does quite a few paintings around Zen Center, Higurashi, I think he wanted to be intimate as a saxophone player or something like that.

[56:46]

I think maybe Woody Allen, too, wants to... People sometimes want to be intimate somewhere else, and then they wind up being intimate where the causes and conditions... And I must confess, you know, part of my limitation is that just my situation is sort of that, I don't know if this is true, but I've heard that my vocation, my occupation, and my avocation are the same thing. And not everybody has that. that their hobby, their religion, is the same thing. So I have to remember that, that not everybody has those three things together.

[57:48]

And that's, in some sense, a limitation on my part. It also makes things easy for me in a way. It's like one-stop shopping. But I also feel like that this training is not just for me to train priests. So it's, in one sense, one part of it is the most important thing is to have another baby Buddha. It's the most important part. But it's not a Buddha unless it relates to all the people who are not necessarily in the reproductive camp the Buddha relates to the non-breeders. If the Buddha only relates to the next generation, that's still pretty good, but somehow the Buddha should relate to more than just the people who are going to be the successors, who karma is.

[58:59]

And so that's part of the The tension here is when more than the people who are already in the kind of breeder track want to process, want to go deeper, how do we deal with that? So that's what I'm bringing up here. Because again, it can look like the people whose karma it is to do the forms are in the exclusive group and they're supposed to be not excluding anybody in this tradition. Conflict or tension here is that we're doing a practice that's for everybody. And is it good to do forms to enable you, to give you the tensile strength to devote yourself to widely? We sort of need a lot of... in order to serve all beings.

[60:05]

And if you get a lot of support, then it's kind of like exclusive. Like, look at all the support she's getting so she can serve these people. Like, again, what comes to mind is Gandhi. During a certain phase of his life, he wasn't going around with almost no clothes on in cold places like England. So when he went into a room, they had to heat the room up for him because he's a skinny little guy with almost no clothes on. So it was very expensive for him to walk around with no clothes on. He was representing this guy who was totally devoted to the welfare of innumerable people, yet he got special treatment and special support to be a special guy who was trying to help everybody. This is kind of the So many people are helping me help many people, but then I'm being treated specially.

[61:06]

I could be treated less specially, but then I wouldn't be able to do some things that I can do being treated special. I could just work in the kitchen, and that might be good, and a lot of people would like it, but then my function would be different. So this is part of the dance I wanted to do tonight with you, is to look at this and to invite you to participate in determining, not determine exactly, but contributing to the actual spiritual tradition, which has these issues of initiation, where we had this amazing ceremony yesterday, so amazing, They have, like, whatever, hundreds of people in that room who are putting up with this long ceremony of a bunch of people changing clothes in public. You know, changing clothes and worshipping the clothes that they're putting on and singing phrases of these clothes because they're the clothes the Buddha wore.

[62:18]

And people are like, you know, wearing designer clothes, watching, and just kind of like, yeah, this is amazing. I don't know what's going on here, but this is totally amazing. It's just awesome. It's like, it's another world. And then the next day, it's like, well, what was that? Did we just make an exclusive club? So anyway, this is kind of like Nitty-gritty. Nitty-gritty with precious things, nitty-gritty. In life, precious dharma, precious student-teacher relationship, wonderful precious robes and bowls made with such love and according to the tradition. This is also just so special and precious. And it's beautiful. And what's going on?

[63:19]

and our people being excluded. It's amazing. Thank you so much. Would you stay here? What I have to say is related to Sergei. When Sergei was talking, she said, but now she's gone. I heard when you were saying, when you quoted Gary Snyder, and that what I felt I heard was that in seeing, in this case, Rev, a master at what Rev does, that would help you to be a master at whatever you're ready to be a master at.

[64:25]

It doesn't have to be Zen practice. Is that kind of what you were quoting that Gary said? That's what I was getting at, yeah. Yeah, and to me that opens the possibility or way of seeing I don't know, a different way of looking at this question that I found hopeful. And I don't know quite what to say about it. So there are many people in the room who really probably have no ask for priests or to live in residence, as lay people who are doing quite a lot of the same thing that priests do just because they live in residence for a long period of time or for sort of that reason. And yet, to become aware of whatever those other interests and abilities and commitments are might be lacking the experience, because our culture doesn't really offer it, as I think was said earlier.

[65:32]

In a lot of fields, there's not that strict mentoring. There's much more, you know, you go to class, you need another teacher, and there's not this ongoing sense of intimacy. being together in an ongoing way. So I felt like maybe there was something in that So we all know these stories from the past where there's a teacher and a student and a teacher and a student and the lineage story of the teacher and the student. And so if a person isn't in that relationship, you know, in terms of having a shaped head and the robes, it might feel like, well, I can't have that. And that's something that we lack elsewhere, so it's very attractive within this tradition. So maybe it offers a possibility of what you brought, a possibility of seeing that it's not limited to that, that the intimacy that is practiced together

[66:43]

extends beyond the Wilson-Hare community and goes out into wherever everybody works and whatever field they work in. I would hope that that's true. It seems like the opposite of being left out. You've heard me say this before, many of you. I certainly was not consciously aware of coming to Zen Center to be a Zen master. But I did start practicing meditation, wishing to do some things which people who I found out later were Zen masters did. Like the story of Hakun. I didn't really know Hakun was a big Zen master. I mean, to me, he was described in the story not a Zen master. But what he did was really masterful.

[67:45]

People attacked him unjustly, severely criticized him, and he said, is that so? They held him responsible for things which he didn't really do, and he accepted the responsibility. And then later they found out that he was unjustly accused and came to him and apologized and praised him. And he said, is that so? And I thought that was... I thought, I want to be able to do that in life. But I didn't think he was a Zen master. I just thought, well, this is a Zen monk. Zen monks, some Zen monks can do this. I want him to be able to act like that in this world. Then I found out that they need to get trained. But I didn't think he necessarily had to be a monk to get the training. And I found out what the training was. It didn't sound like he had to be a monk to do the training.

[68:47]

All you had to do was sit. But you also need somebody to help you with your sittings because it's hard to do without community support and without a teacher. to sort of support you, encourage you, and help you maybe not misunderstand what's going on. But in fact, I did want to do something which somebody who had mastered herself could do. Namely, come back with compassion no matter what people do to you. And that mastering the art of compassion is what I wanted to find out. And yeah, that was really good. And so Zen, if I had heard stories like that in some other tradition, I would be in another tradition. I grew up in a Christian tradition, but I didn't hear any stories like that. I kind of liked them, but they were a little bit too lofty for me, a lot of them. Walking on the water, for example, didn't really like, I couldn't relate to it.

[69:50]

Raising people from the dead, I thought, well, you know, But to be able to respond to attack in a relaxed, open way, I thought, well, that's possible. How cool. But also, how impossible. Almost nearly impossible. There must be some training, not just good luck. And then the training, this form, which you don't have to be a priest to do But as you get into it, then you sort of say, well, but my teacher's a priest, so hmm. And also when I came to Zen Center, I didn't expect the heart sutra, didn't expect the bowing. I just sort of said, okay. But now you see I'm kind of into it. But I didn't come to do that stuff, but somehow it seems like that stuff is part of it.

[70:53]

And I think Zen, a lot of people think Zen is just basically being a master of what you're doing. Like the Zen of buttering a baguette in the movie Diva. In some sense, Zen is now, in some people's mind, the mastery of whatever you're doing. is there a successor to buttering the baguette? Does the person find a successor to butter the baguette? And I would say, probably not. Even though that really buttering baguette in a masterful way, that is the Buddha. And again, one time I heard Kadagiri Roshi say that he went to a flea market in Minneapolis And this woman there, old woman, made these beautiful cards, greeting cards.

[71:56]

And he said, they're so wonderful. And he said to her, is this your successor? And she said, no. And he was really like, when he told the story, he was on the verge of tears. He was, that this woman, when she was done, there would be no one carrying on her beautiful tradition, her beautiful art. Is his teaching going to be conveyed too? This was before he actually did any Dharma transmissions. Will his card making, will his baguette buttering be transmitted? That was part of his concern. So anyway, we do have this, but I think it's possible for other people to achieve mastery partly because we have this form. So we can have some people, this is part of it, some people who will come to Zen Center and touch and be touched by the formal tradition.

[72:59]

master baguette butterers. And the compassion will be there in the baguette buttering. But it's questionable whether they will actually transmit baguette buttering to the next generation. So that's the thing about the lay tradition is that in the form, the traditional form, or something like it, they touch it and are touched by it, and they achieve mastery. But they don't necessarily transmit their mastery to another generation, because if they do, then that turns into another priesthood. Another priesthood, because they would use the baguette butter in the next generation. which is possible, but it's hard to make up a new tradition. So what you do usually see is you see enlightened lay people parallel to the priest tradition. They are fully recognized successors, but they can't use their form to transmit to the next generation because their form was just their form, which was what they mastered in association with the 2,500 years

[74:18]

So in that sense, it's hard to reproduce it. However, the tradition, when it looks at that, it says, how wonderful, how beautiful, that there's mastery in this form. But I don't see how that form's going to reproduce. If it does, fine. But it's hard because this person who lived in India made up this robe. You know, he didn't wear this robe actually when he was enlightened. Later he was asked to make a uniform for his disciples. And so he made this form up. So now this is the baguette buttering from him. and it's made it 2,500 years, and we're still doing it, and yet like yesterday, the day before yesterday, whatever it was, we're worshipping this outfit, and we keep saying that this is made according to God. And he made it because the society asked him, would you please make some stuff to transmit?

[75:27]

And he did. Would you make some precepts? And he did. He didn't have the precepts right away, but he was asked, so he gave them. Outfits from the beginning were part of what was transmitted to have some, you know, baguette and butter. This is the baguette and butter of the tradition, which then can enlighten all other forms which are contemporary with it in every generation. But those may or may not be able to be transmitted. Because those forms weren't done by Shakyamuni Buddha, but we're actually pretending like we're doing the same forms as the founder. So I feel, I'm happy to say that I feel now here the potential is that those who are not choose to use Buddha's baguette buttering stuff, those who do not choose to use the forms of priesthood, still may be able to be masters if you can contact some tradition that has mastery in it.

[76:40]

Maybe the Buddhist tradition does have mastery, which you can... The word attain, actually, in English, the English word attain has the root of touch. So you can touch the tradition and the tradition can touch you. And in that touching, even if you're not a priest, you could be a master of your thing, of something that you do. It could be mastery, which is the same mastery, could be the same mastery as the priest forms, that the transmission could happen. horizontally rather than vertically. But the horizontal transmission depends on the vertical because the vertical goes back to Buddha and also has benefited from taking care of these forms for 2500 years. This robe is actually quite similar, I think, to the one that he made.

[77:45]

There's records of what it looked like, and this looks like that. And the bowl is apparently the same shape, and so on. And the haircut is the same haircut. It's like, cut it off. And so on. And the body is, the human body has not changed that much in 2,500 years. The crossing the legs, the putting the mudras. So, I'm feeling quite joyful that I feel like, I feel anyway, a better understanding of how people will not be left out. You don't have to necessarily join the priest training thing to be included, but somehow you have to find some way to touch it and let it touch you. What priest training do you have to do? How much do you have to open to the forms that priests are working with? How are you going to open to and surrender to your life enough to be touched and then to be a master of whatever you're doing, wherever you are?

[78:57]

Because, again, I do not want to just train priests. I do not want to close my life to non-priests, of course. I took a walk with a little girl into the garden today who saw the mommy Buddha and the baby Buddha. I feel she's part of my life. She's not around much. The people around much are you people. And so, you're my people. Not because you're the best people or I'm the best person, but because you want to be around these forms. Right? Somewhat? Yes?

[80:01]

There is no mastery, in my opinion, in what you're able to share with others. Right. So, I'm unclear about and lay teaching. I understand the transmission part of it, but it's not, we're not going to take Buddha, but it... Well, in the baguette... We're not just out there in my life going, look at my name. I'm sharing with people, aren't we? Well, take the baguette buttering. In the movie, the guy is teaching somebody else. He's demonstrating the baguette buttering to somebody else. Now, if he was mastering that, I would say he must have touched something to teach him what... which probably wasn't baguette buttering, but it might have been. Now, is the person watching him going to be able to, is the transmission going to be able to go sideways strongly enough so that the person who is watching him do the baguette thing, that that person can then start buttering the baguette with the same mastery?

[81:18]

It might be able to go horizontally. It's possible. And then that person would transmit to somebody else and this baguette buttering thing would spread horizontally across. But would these people keep doing the baguette buttering and keep doing it so that when they got older it would be young people who would take up the work? That's the thing. Would the next generation pick this up? Because it could spread horizontally. the transmission could go horizontally in sort of a time, in the present. Possibly it was really strong. But it's hard to find somebody who has the ability If you're getting it from a tradition, if you touch a tradition and that empowers a mastery, it can't go sideways too far usually, unless the other people who are touching that horizontal transmission are vertical.

[82:21]

There's something about us, the time thing, the vertical thing, gives power to the transmissions. Yeah, that's the usual way. And even if you're a priest, that's the usual way, until you've been put in the position of being the next generation. there you're also supposed to refer people to the tradition until you're put in that position by, again, this... So that's the same whether you're lay or priest. To say, you know, I'm not qualified. And even the people in the tradition kind of say, I'm not qualified. But here we can do this thing here together. So I'm not qualified, but we can do this thing together.

[83:25]

I guess I'm... Completely basic. Like sitting meditation? No, not sitting meditation. Like what? Like what? What did you do? Pardon? What did you do? What happened? Yeah, well, even if a so-called Zen master was asked those questions, they'd say, you know, it's hard to explain, you should just come and do it. That's probably what they would say. To explain to people. Like, one more story is that when we got some robes one time, some robes were made for us, Suzuki Roshi's students. But they were from the ones we had before. And we asked Suzuki Roshi, how do you put the robe on? And he got up and walked away. And then we asked Kadagiri Roshi, how do you put the robe on?

[84:31]

And then Kadagiri Roshi started to explain. And then someone noticed as if Roshi was putting the robe on. No, you don't have to say you don't know. You can just say, you just get up and go to Zen Center. When they say to you, how do you practice Zazen, you just get up and walk over to Zen Center and sit down. Some of them will ask somebody else, how do you practice Zazen? But one of them might notice, where did Abby go? And somebody says, oh, she's sitting over there. So you can say, I don't know, but you can also just do the practice. Or you can just tell them, if you want to know, do the practice. Go sit. You want to come sit with me? Bodhidharma did that. You know that story? The emperor of China asked Bodhidharma, you know, what's the highest meaning of the holy truths?

[85:35]

You know, who is this here? What is this? Who are you? No. And he went a few miles north and sat. So I think whether you're a great Zen master or a new student, if somebody asks you what the practice is, basically say, well, if you do it, you'll find out. Nobody knows what our practice is. Do it. You can say that. You're qualified to say that. And you can tell them where they can find some other people to deal with so people won't tease them. They are in danger.

[86:22]

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