But I think that enlightenment is on the path of being devoted to what you can't control. Enlightenment's on the path of being devoted to what you can't control, like your teenage children. You can't control them if you're devoted to them. If you try to control them, you're unsuccessful. But how about just forgetting about it entirely and just be devoted to them? To be devoted to what you can control is basically another power trip. It's just more delusion. I am in control of this. And that's where I want to put my money and time. I want to put my effort in the area where I have some control. Right? Well, that's what most people do their whole lives. And in the end, it crashes.

[01:01]

That way. When I was in graduate school, I had this little vision that was quite helpful to me, I feel. I was in graduate school, and I said, well, I'm going to get my PhD, and then I'll do an assistant professor, and then I'll do associate professor, then I'll be a chairman of the department, then I'll do professor emeritus, and then I'll die. That was my little contraire thing. And it might have gone that way. I said, even if I was successful, I don't want to do it. Not to mention that it might not go that way. But that was basically a certain trajectory called, okay, here I am. I'm a white man. I'm in college, you know. They're letting me, you know, be in graduate school. It looks like this track is forming here. Nice control thing here. Prison, you know. Nice green lawns and... It's nice, nice little light.

[02:08]

Now it doesn't always go that way. Sometimes something comes in and boom, knocks the whole thing down. But even if it did, what a waste of me. So I just... I didn't know exactly where I was going and I still don't. But it's not about control. It's about being devoted to what I can't control. And what is it that I can't control? Teenagers? Right? But also I can't control Jack. Can you believe that, that I can't control you? You are not under my control. You keep asking questions that I didn't ask you to ask. I didn't plan for you to be this way today. You are under my control. But you know what? That's not what I'm about. I'm devoted to you even though you're not under my control. Now, if you start looking like you're under my control, okay.

[03:16]

I'm not going to say, hey, wait a minute, I'm done with you. I will sort of be suspicious of you. How come you're looking like you're under my control all of a sudden? My wife says, she really likes my students, she said, because they're not, you know, they're not the kind of students you would have chosen. You know? They aren't little rebs. You know? They really, you know, who they are. Not who I would like them to be. But still, these are the people I'm devoted to. So that's the path. Controlling other people. Then also be devoted to this person who's not under your control. This person. This mind. This searing, collaborative pot that's changing so rapidly and totally out of control.

[04:17]

Be devoted to this one. So, if you are in danger by yourself or others, I will try to do something to protect you. But it's not a matter of control. But I try to protect you. And you may tell me you don't want me to protect you. But anyway, it's not control for me. It's devotion to the uncontrollable, which is everybody I know, including me. aren't I uncontrollable to you? Haven't you noticed that? And some people really hate that, too. They just hate it. They really have a hard time with me because I'm just not under control. I keep being this thing that's not what they want or not what they expect.

[05:20]

I've arranged for. So definitely, Whenever possible, if anybody's ever in danger in any way, definitely do something to protect their life, because they're precious. In control, that means just to try to help. If you don't know what it's going to be like, you come to help and then everything changes and you find out that what was wrong wasn't wrong, or the way you were helped isn't helpful. You know? Like you come and say, can I help? Can I adjust this? And say, no, no, don't do that. Don't do that here. Over here. Oh, okay. So this is right intention. It isn't that I try to control my intention over... Of course, I would like it to be non-attachment, but the way to get it to go over to non-attachment is to let go of it.

[06:28]

But let go of it doesn't mean let go of it in absentia. It means let go of it when it's right under your nose. I look at my intention, moment by moment. Is there attachment there? If so, do I try to make it non-attachment? That's just more attachment. So if I see myself being someone who's attached and greedy, I have no attachment about that. In other words, I just watch it. That starts to transform the person. Does that make sense? If I see myself being unkind, I don't be unkind to myself about being not kind. I just say, Just like I would to a little kid, you know, who I see being unkind to some other little kid.

[07:37]

I don't go and beat him up for being unkind to them. I go and say, you know, Hey, Johnny, how are you feeling? What's happening? What do we got here? Sometimes with children I go a little farther than that and I sometimes say, hey, you know what? You can do something more interesting than this. Like sometimes when I find boys, big boys on the street beating up on little boy or even beating up on girls, hey, I got somebody better for you to beat up on, somebody more your size. Would that be more kind of up for your, you know, this is not really a challenge for you, this little guy here. Okay, let's go find somebody big.

[08:37]

And they go, oh, okay, yeah, this wasn't really, yeah, this wasn't that good. This was really not up to speed for us. We were just, you know, trying to keep ourselves busy. Yeah, let's go get the big one. Where is he? Yeah, you are. Okay. Beat me up. So they beat me up. Or if I'm not big enough, let's go find somebody bigger. I know somebody who's really big. Let's go. And they go, oh, geez, this is going to be scary. But it's fun, you know. And, you know, they have some positive energy. They're not wasting their time beating up on some little kid. which is really a waste of time. We have better things to do. Or we can like, hey, how about come over here? Here's a big one. Come on over here. What's this? Oh, this is a mountain. A mountain. Let's get this mountain up. Come on, let's go. And halfway up the mountain, boy, this is a big mountain.

[09:48]

This is hard. I'm getting tired. Yeah. But this is like, you know, More your speed, don't you think? Yeah, this is really challenging. Do you understand? So it's not so much saying, you bad boys, because they're really not that bad. You think that's bad? You want to say something bad? Come on, I'll show you something bad. Beat up that mountain. Or let's go beat up a tiger. Want to be bad? Let's go beat a tiger up. Well, I don't want to be that bad. So it's not to punish cruelty with cruelty. That just makes it go deeper and deeper. It shows more example. Cruelty is the truth. It's to show that love is actually cooler than hate. If love isn't more interesting than hate, love's got to be more creative and more flexible and more beautiful than hate. And I think it can be.

[10:49]

So with yourself, you're harming tendencies towards yourself, and when you see harming tendencies towards others, the real way to protect beings from cruelty is to show that love is actually more... just, you know, it's... Well, it is, it's just amazing. But also, because if somebody's being cruel, in some ways you're safer if you call and be cruel to them. It seems safer. But to go into some situation where people are being cruel and teach vulnerability and love, it's like you're in danger too. You're coming in, you know, so it's more dangerous. But it's not really more dangerous, it's just you're aware of the danger more, which is good. I think so, anyway.

[12:07]

Although, still, you know, if I go into a dangerous situation, I'm pretty cautious. I mean, I want to be cautious. You know, overly cavalier about going into a dangerous situation. But also, I don't want to be overly squeamish and stay away either. So I guess I want to be a little bit stupid, stupid enough to get in there, but not too stupid to not be a little bit careful. Bade into your Can you wade into your intentions? Can you start noticing your intentions that are coming up all the time?

[13:12]

Can you become aware of your intentions more and more? Anyway, I've found that mine have been transformed not by trying to control them, but by watching them. That's been my path. Maybe some other people It's different, but for me, that's what I've found. And other people who I see trying to control their intentions, they don't seem to be successful. But awareness, I see people who watch their intentions, see how they go, and they have these awakenings, now and then, to what they're up to. So before we take the next step around the path, maybe a little walking meditation would be good.

[14:16]

People keep leaving just when I was expecting them to come, but not coming when I was expecting them to leave. It's not that painful for me. I'll just wait. They'll come back someday. Here they come. Next, we could talk about the practice of right speech.

[15:50]

So unwholesome speech or wrong speech is sometimes broken up in terms of four precepts. It's interesting, I don't know if it's interesting, but anyway, in terms of body, speech, and mind, in terms of the passive, unwholesome expression, four are for speech. So four unwholesome or unskillful ways of using speech are whining, harsh speech, idle chatter, and slander. So we're going to have a break pretty soon.

[17:10]

And during that break, some of you might be talking. so that the opportunity to practice or wrong speech. Wrong speech is really easy. It's very easy to slander people. It's very easy to be harsh. It's very easy to lie. And it's very easy to practice idle chatter. Don't you think? Most people seem to be, have easy time with it. But the other four, the wholesome ways of speech, speaking the truth, speaking kindly and gently, speaking of others' merits, you know, praising them, improving their reputation by what you say, and speaking in a way that's conducive to practice, those are a little bit harder.

[18:16]

or sometimes really hard. At breakfast, at the brunch, you know, I was sitting at the table talking to some people, and the conversation wasn't... I didn't feel it was overly restrained and sanctimonious, overly serious. But I really feel, looking back on it, that it was kind of serious. And we were actually talking about some, I think, some worthwhile topics. I didn't feel like we were practicing idle chatter. I thought we had a discussion about how to really talk to somebody. I mean, we were talking to each other, but we were also talking about how to talk to somebody. It was a good conversation. And there was no... There might have been some lying, I don't know, but I don't think so.

[19:26]

There was no harsh speech, and nobody said anything negative about anybody. Nobody... I shouldn't say negative, but nobody spoke about somebody in such a way that... or degraded in any way. So it was a pretty nice talk, don't you think? Did you have a good time? Did you have a good time? So I'd like to say a little bit about right speech. First of all, again, slander means it is possible to say something negative about somebody without it being slander. The thing about slander is you say something about someone, and the intention is that people would think less of them.

[20:33]

You intend to cause disunity, or you intend to make respect the person as much as they already do. You know, you say, this person does bad work. But you mean that you want people to sort of think badly of the person. It's possible to bring up someone's in such a way as to make people concerned about them and care about them. You know, so-and-so's, you know, so-and-so's got a problem in this area, and what can we do to help the person? And you really mean that. You really want to rally people's support over the problem they have. And I'm worried about so-and-so. They've got this thing happening. But, you know, we really care about this person, and let's do something to help her. Rather than

[21:35]

to try to get people to care. That's what I think is meant by slander. A related thing is what's called gossip. And sometimes we say things about people that we haven't actually checked out to see if they're true. So we hear so-and-so did something, something not good, and sometimes we'll repeat that to somebody else before we find out whether it's true. That's also a kind of lazy speech. Idle chatter is a difficult one, and I hear that because a lot of people feel like sometimes idle chatter seems good. But when idle chatter seems good, when idle chatter is good, it's not idle chatter anymore.

[22:43]

So, sometimes someone may be very upset or depressed or whatever, and a little light conversation can be very good for them. It can break the ice or something, make people feel more comfortable, and maybe open up a really important conversation. But then it's not idle chatter. Then it actually promotes maybe a good conversation. So what I mean by idle chatter is conversation that isn't intended to promote of karma, study of our intention, and practicing the Eightfold Path. Conversations that derail people from practicing the Eightfold Path is what I would call idle chatter. They'll derail them, you know, not in a mean way or in a lying way, but in a kind of... kind of irresponsible, insincere way.

[23:44]

And like I said, at the Brenner Institute, I didn't feel like we were being... too heavy or anything, but I thought we were talking about really important things, really interesting things. Distracting ourselves from what was going on. And one of the things we were talking about, actually, was how when, for example, I think it came out of a discussion, you know, I was talking about how In college, I was a mathematics major. I majored in mathematics as an undergraduate. But then when I went to graduate school, I didn't go on to mathematics because I realized as an undergraduate that there were some of my friends who were in the mathematics department as a first language. And for me, it was a second language. I did math and English. They did it in math.

[24:49]

They thought about math and mathematics. I thought about math and English or German. But I realized, you know, I'd always be a foreigner. So I left math to the native speakers and went to psychology, which is more my, you know, it is more of an English to English thing. So I could think about it in psychology, so it's more my home. Also, I There's almost no girls I could talk to about math. But a lot of girls you can talk to about psychology. So I'd like to be able to talk about what I was studying. So we're talking about there's some advantage, however, to learning a language. Learning a language, you kind of wonder if you know what's going on. It's really hard work. and you feel somewhat insecure, but you're not lazy because, you know, you're really, like, alert to try to understand what they're saying and try to figure out something to say.

[26:01]

One time I was in Japan and I was talking to a Japanese artist. But I wasn't just talking to a Japanese artist, I was talking to a Japanese artist about arranging for him to come to America and do a big sculpture at Zen Center. So, like, what I said and how I understood him has consequences. airplane tickets and buying wood. So it wasn't just an inconsequential conversation. I was making arrangements in Japanese for this person to come across the ocean and spend months at Zen Center. And I was kind of having a conversation in Japanese with this Japanese person, very good at Japanese. And then he was teaching art at an art school. And then one of the English teachers in the art school came into the room. to interpret. And I noticed how relaxed I got. Because now I didn't have to, like, for this conversation in a foreign language.

[27:03]

And when I got back to America, whenever I get back to America from Japan, I'm much more relaxed because I can just talk to people. I don't have to, like, think about what to say and wonder what they're saying. And that's nice, right? Talk to people, speak English, right? But it's also, it's hard to make the same level of effort. But it is possible. But the effort then is not to figure out how to talk, it's more to figure out what to say and who you're talking to. So although we can struggle when we're speaking English, most of us, the way we would if we were speaking a foreign language that we don't know very well, we can make the epitome a different way, which is like to look at the person we're talking to and remember that we don't know who that is, and wonder, or wonder what they mean, or wonder what would be good to say. So part of item chatter is basically being lazy.

[28:10]

And actually, gossip is oftentimes lazy, and lying is lazy, and... Slander is lazy. They're all really lazy. It takes much more effort to practice right speech. And it takes much more effort to remember when you're talking to somebody to wonder who rather than, oh yeah, that's Brett. Okay, fine. I got that down. I know who that is. Oh, that's Gary. Okay. I'm Basha. Yeah, I know her. That's lazy. That's lazy. comfortable maybe, indolent, but to meet somebody and be in wonder, I think is part of right speech. It's also part of right intention and right view.

[29:12]

To watch yourself in wonder, to wonder. Am I behaving skillfully? Is this skillful speech? Is this skillful posture? Is this skillful intention? Is this beneficial? What would be beneficial for this person, for me? If you're in a foreign country trying to speak the language, that level of effort you're going to make for a while. that certain level of effort would you be willing to make when you meet anybody, even somebody who you can speak to in your native tongue, down to a lower level of energy? Well? A lower level of effort. Well? Patience gives rise to enthusiasm, not laziness.

[30:17]

When you're in pain, And you're not running away from it. Your energy comes up. You're not running away from pain. You're not trying to find a place where you can get away from the pain. You're willing to throw your pain. So if you're willing to throw your pain, you're willing to have difficulty. Because you do have difficulty. You're not trying to find a place where there's no difficulty. You're surrounded by difficulty. You're surrounded by difficulty. You're constantly hassled. You're not looking for a place where there's no hassle. you're sitting in the middle of the hassle. Therefore, it's not that much more trouble when you meet someone to wonder, who in the world is this? Who is this? What is this? Who am I talking to? Could this possibly be a Buddha? Oh, no, no, no. This is just an ordinary person, not a Buddha. I know what this person is.

[31:19]

This is a Buddha. This is not an ordinary person. This is a great teacher. That's who it is. I'm not going to suspect that this great teacher is just like an ordinary person. He's still the best teacher I've ever met, so I guess I'll stay. And the next lecture he gave, he said, I am Buddha. So, I think some of us have some idea, like, there's some people in this room that aren't Buddhas. The Buddha wouldn't look like some of the people here. Maybe some of us have that idea. Do some of you have that idea? Huh? That some of the people in this room probably aren't Buddhas? Wouldn't look like some of these people?

[32:22]

You don't have to admit that. But maybe somebody feels that way. But, you know, who knows? Do you think Buddha would kind of like make it clear to us for sure, you know? Well, maybe the Buddha would. Maybe the Buddha would like be tall and turn gold. Go, wow! 16 feet is the height, normal height of a Buddha. 16 feet, that's almost up to the ceiling there. But that's what a Buddha looks like to somebody who, you know, whose eyes are open and who really believes in Buddha. But otherwise, Buddha might look like some of the men or women in this room. Who knows? Is that, like, impossible? Would that be inconvenient to open to that possibility? Yeah. It would mean that you'd have to be ready to bow to everybody.

[33:25]

Oh, how inconvenient. So, conversations could be like that, as though you're talking to Buddha. But also, as though even though you're talking to Buddha, you don't know what Buddha is or what would be right to say to Buddha. And this is not to make you tongue-tied so you can't say anything, it's just to make you willing to make your great effort in a conversation. And that means also perhaps you'd be somewhat awkward. Because again, speaking a foreign language, you're awkward. We want to speak our native tongue. We're not awkward. But to me it seems it's not that the conversation should be awkward, but if you're meeting somebody and you don't know who they are, wouldn't there be some awkwardness?

[34:30]

There might be. There might not be. Sometimes we sort of call, we hit it off, right? It's really easy right from the beginning when you first start talking to somebody. That's okay. But it's not that way. And after you know somebody for a while, you lose that awkwardness, but I think you also lose some life sometimes. We start taking each other for granted. Like our family. And if a family member wants to do something that's not Department we sometimes say forget it get back in your box don't start acting different can you imagine if you sit down at the table and your family say can we have a meaningful discussion tonight who do you think you are could we really talk to each other for a little bit here When my wife comes home from work, she's a psychotherapist, she used to say, let's do a check-in, and now she says, let's do a deep check-in.

[35:40]

So she does her deep check-in, and I say, do you think that was deep? And sometimes she says, yeah. Sometimes she says, no. And I do my deep check-in, and she says, I say, was that deep? Do you think that was deep? But it is kind of deep, just to say deep. So idle chatter is kind of like not deep check-in. It's kind of like, let's not get into anything. Let's just do like, I don't know what. So since we're not all in the same family, we probably won't be harsh to each other this weekend. I don't know how much buttons we'll push. And since we're not in a kind of hierarchical relationship here,

[36:50]

Like nobody's got, there aren't like, you know, managers and workers and vice presidents in this group. So there's no kind of like status thing here too much. So we don't care for each other either. Like, oh, did you hear what Dulce did the other day? So that kind of thing probably won't happen. But I think, I would guess the things we've, in our conversation this weekend, the things we've more and more would probably slip into are lying. Lying. like somebody says, did you like the food? or did you like this afternoon's talk? or how's the weekend going? you might be tempted to lie there because you might not want to tell the person something that would be difficult but idle chatter I think is fairly likely so I'm not prohibiting it

[37:51]

but actually I'm encouraging you to consider having intimate conversations with each other. If you have conversations here with spouses and family members, some of you are here with friends, some of you know people here already, some of you don't know too many people, but I would encourage everybody to explore the possibility of having intimate speech. Intimate speech, I think, Intimate speech is not harsh. Intimate speech is not slander. Intimate speech is not idle chatter. I don't think intimate speech is gossip. Although someone might be gossiping, and you might have something intimate to say in response to the gossip. Like, you know, I really feel bad about what you just said."

[38:53]

So again, being aware of your karma, being aware of your intention, and practicing these... practicing intimate conversation. with yourself and with others. Okay? Give it a try. You have an hour and a half to practice intimate conversations if you want, which might be taking a walk and talking to yourself intimately. Take a walk and ask yourself how you're feeling and tell the truth. Fun. Not so bad.

[40:02]

So, an hour and a half break. And then we'll start again at 2.30 here, please. Thank you. Now that we have introduced the practice of right speech, are there any comments or questions you have about the practice of right speech?

[41:15]

Yes. I mean, I have to say I'm the youngest. And also what I'm trying to observe is the intention of what my brothers are saying. Because sometimes they might use the right speech because they don't know about the right speech, but their intention is not bad. So they can call names or say things, but their intention is not to do harm. And so I cut through the non-effective speech

[42:27]

and feel their attention. And I go to the attention and I can work with them. And I'm doing great. But something is left with me that it seems to me that sometimes I'm eating something that I shouldn't eat. So basically saying, yeah, I know that their intention is good, but here there's wrong speech. But I ignore that. But I go to their intention, and they're trying to help me, because they are sick. They're the eldest brother, and they used to tell me always what to do, even though I could be now 50-something. They tell me what to do and what's best, and they're fixing that pattern.

[43:35]

Do you mean that while they're talking to you, even though they're fixed in this pattern, you try to see some positive thing in what they're saying? They're trying to take care of me. So you appreciate something good about what they're doing, which you appreciate. Yeah. But still, you've got some problem that they're relating to you in this fixed way. Correct. There's some problem with you that they're relating to you out of habit, rather than maybe what's appropriate now. Correct. So you see positive, some positive feeling from them, but they're stuck in this unfortunate, inappropriate way, which is hard for you. Yeah, it is hard, but on the other side, I'm having such a great relationship that I just erase the other stuff. But I do feel that something is here that I need to wash out. How can I say it?

[44:42]

Yes, I would desire that they would use the right speech. You would desire what? That they would use the correct speech, the effective speech. Uh-huh. You kind of wish that they would be able to relate to you in a kind of fresh way. Yes. Rather than old-fashioned. That is correct. And that they could be more skillful. That is correct. You wish that for them. And it's kind of hurt you a little bit that they're not there yet? I don't know how to say it. It's not hurting me because the relationship is so good that it's erased this feeling that I have. But how can I be complete? Understanding their intention. There's something incomplete in you in the relationship? Yeah. Some potential you have that's not realized? And you would like to have that realized?

[45:47]

You kind of long for that? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think that's good. You can ship and yet, well, like maybe, I don't know. You may know something that would be very enjoyable to practice with someone, but they may not be ready to practice it, or anyway, they're not practicing it, and you kind of wish they would, because then you could do other things together. Yeah. Is that kind of it? Yeah. So you're practicing patience with that. Yeah. Waiting for them to maybe start practicing right speech. Yeah. And, you know, they each other and things like that, you know. Yeah. So the only thing that I do is I don't put fire in the bathroom.

[46:52]

Stay quiet, because if I say no, you know, they're going to think that I'm on the other side for a very fearful conversation going on there. So basically I think that if I remain quiet, they should know that maybe I'm not a human. Yeah, maybe. Which is not really bad. They always come to get me on their side and things like that. I used to, you know, like when I was young, that was the group that was always throwing me on their side. Yeah. Here we are, you know, about 60 people playing games. And I'm trying to get out. And I am doing it. There's a certain kind of conversation that you haven't been able to have yet.

[48:03]

I know some people When they go home to visit their mother, you know, their mother tells them how, you know, talks to them how bad their father is. But they have to kind of listen to it, you know, because they can't exactly get their mother to stop talking about their father the way that she's been talking for 40, 50 years, you know, just to listen. But maybe you long for maybe she could just be quiet for a little while and not talk like that, talk some new way about him. Not exactly stop complaining, but Yeah, maybe stop complaining for a little while. And I recently went back to visit my mother in Minnesota. And I'm going to go again next week.

[49:11]

fortunately there's a Zen center in Minneapolis so they keep inviting me to go and then I can talk to see my mother at the same time and usually I don't usually I I just see my mother a day or so before and a day after the retreat or whatever I'm doing the last time I was there she said one thing nice about your visits is they're so short we don't have time to get bored with you and also because I'm there for such a short time we don't have time to it's just sort of like it's easy to keep up a fairly good level for a day but my brother and sister live nearby and my sister my sister really loves my mother I mean I love my mother but my sister kind of worships her

[50:21]

or my sister just really loves her so much. I don't know, just really, it's just palpable. Like I was, I was with my, in this last visit, I was with my mother and my sister and my sister was, my mother was sitting in a chair and my sister was sitting at her feet looking at her. And she just loves my mother so much, it's amazing, you know. And my mother has some tendency to be kind of, well, yeah, I might almost say mean to my sister. Almost like she can't stand the love. And she says these things to my sister, which I think some other mothers say to their daughters. Like they say, that's not a very nice dress you have on, or why do you wear your hair that way? Have you ever heard mothers talk to their daughters that way? just comments about how they dress or something.

[51:23]

It doesn't seem that bad. But when the daughter loves the mother that much, sometimes it kills the daughter when the mother says, oh, I don't like that dress, or I don't like your hair that way. And my mother says stuff like that to my daughter. And it just kills my sister. So it's a small thing, but considering who she's talking to, it really hurts. So recently, my sister stayed with my mother for six months. She lives a couple hundred miles away, so it's not so strange, but anyway, considering how devoted she is to my mother, six months, she didn't come to see my mother, I think. And my mother said to her, you know, what's the matter? And my sister said, Nothing. She said, she won't tell me what the problem is. She won't tell me what it is.

[52:24]

Every time I ask her, she says, no problem. But she doesn't come to see me anymore. So I asked my brother what the problem was. He said, well, she's just really mean to her. And so the only way to get the message to her is just to stay away for a while. So the last time I came to visit, my sister was there too to visit my mother. this is the time I was telling you, she was looking at my mother in this very loving way and she had brought my mother a new microwave and she was trying to teach my mother how to use it. It's like a microwave that's about as hard to run as learning how to run a computer or something. It's really complicated. My mother's pretty old. She couldn't figure out how to work it. So finally she traded that microwave to my brother who has a simpler one. You just press a button and it goes, you know. My sister came back to visit.

[53:24]

And my mother kind of knew, kind of learned, even without being told, she kind of learned, she kind of got at what it was that my sister wouldn't tell her about. And she was more careful not to hurt my sister. But in a way, I kind of feel like... Oh, and then I was with my mother at this visit, too, and I was looking at her, and she said, she said, don't look at me like that. And I said, what do you mean? She said, don't look at me, I'm too ugly. And I said, well, you're not too ugly to love. I didn't argue with her that she wasn't ugly. Because, you know, compared to what she used to look like, she's, you know, not so ugly to love. So anyway, I said, I didn't argue with her, I just said, but you're not too ugly to love.

[54:29]

And she just kind of went, hmm. I'm just looking at you because I love you, that's all. Anyway, a lot of times I feel like when I go to visit her or when I see her with my brother and sister, like part of the problem we have is that it's so intense between us that we veer off, we keep veering off from what we really feel. We just can't stand it, so we just keep saying these kind of irrelevant things. But they often hurt. And then people start arguing about the kind of irrelevant thing that we said, and we get off on that when it had nothing to do with anything anyway. Do you know what I mean? Especially between family people. You just can't see what it is, even though it's like right there. It's just too much. So we throw this other thing, which is kind of like, usually it's like idle chatter or gossip, kind of the same thing, talking about somebody else or something else other than this thing that's going on.

[55:42]

like, I'm ugly, or, you know, don't look at me. And... Or sometimes we... on the family, right, and try to do some kind of family power thing, you know, like, oh, your brother did this, or your father did that, or... It's not really the point. They're not in the room, you know. What's going on with us? That's much harder. So on this last visit, it didn't happen like that. Nobody said anything like that. My mother didn't say anything derivative. You know, derivative. It's like derivative statements. It's not the real thing. My mother didn't say anything to my sister or my brother. My brother didn't tease my mother. I didn't tease my mother. and any kinds of comments somehow we didn't we didn't get turned away from each other and um there was one you know it was almost like a moment it was actually more than a moment but it was almost kind of like a moment which lasted maybe it lasted minutes or 30 minutes it wasn't an hour i don't think but all four of us were together my brother my sister and me and my mother

[57:10]

And we were just there, sitting on her little porch, looking out on a nice day, there together. And nobody was turning away from being there. And it was almost like we were actually kind of quiet. I don't know, we might have been talking about something, but it was almost like we weren't saying anything. we were having this conversation but really what our conversation was here we are together and this is our family and and we can just be together and that's it we can stand it and nobody has to say something else and I just kind of sat there and I thought boy this is great I wonder if they all know this something like I'm the happiest woman in the world to have these wonderful children and I've had a successful life and then

[58:37]

that moment made her life worthwhile and made ours worthwhile too it was you know that was there it was what did it take you know it took nobody fooling around everybody just being there and everybody was suffering but nobody was running away from you know this lady's very old and she's rich she's really has a hard time you know she's really got a lot of illness and uh one thing about my mother is that she's been sick so long she is you know most people if you just plop them into my mother's body they go huh and drop dead But she's been sick, you know, since she was 40, basically. When I was a little kid, she was sick, you know, always having something wrong. Headaches. As a little kid, she had headaches, pleurisy, varicose veins, everything, you know.

[59:45]

So many illnesses. She'd never really been healthy. She's never, like, I mean, my mother's never, like, taken a walk, I don't think. Maybe she went swimming three times or something, but she's just, you know, didn't take care of herself. But she doesn't know how sick she is, so she just keeps living. And she can't believe it. Everybody else is dying left and right. But she just keeps going, you know. But she has a really hard time. She does. It's a real struggle, but I guess there's a few things she likes that make it worthwhile to keep struggling. Anyway, that was a great moment and it just took all of us just being there and nobody saying anything beside the point. A couple days later after I went back to California, I called my brother about something and I didn't say anything to him, but he just said,

[60:51]

We hadn't talked about that moment, but he said, you know, that time together, it really changed Mom. She's really different. So he knew, too. But he didn't say anything. And I didn't say, I didn't tip him off. But I guess we all knew what was happening. So we yearn. We want to have those kind of meetings with our brothers and our sisters. We want to have some time when none of us are screwing it up by saying something that's really not about what's happening. That's some old habit, you know. Some way we've been together for 40 years. Easy to be that way again. And so hard to drop it. But if we would... we'd be with these people who are obviously our life without idle chatter, without gossip.

[61:57]

And the gossip and idle chatter then can easily spark off into harsh speech and lying. It doesn't usually start with harsh speech, but idle chatter can easily get off into that. Somebody just says, oh, so-and-so, so-and-so, and they say, you're so cruel, you know, you're so, you know, you shouldn't be, and then, what do you mean? But that's not what it's about, you know, in the first place. It's just, you know what I mean? This is right speech. So, we yearn for right speech. I think we really yearn for it. Speech is so much a hindrance to intimacy and also so much a possibility for intimacy. And the very fact that it's such a possibility for intimacy is exactly why it's so easy to slip off. Yes.

[63:16]

Yes. Yes. Well, I've seen it just occurred to me the quality of it. It seems much more palpable. Why are they designing it this way? Well, I think it's true that Right View is, well, it starts out being somewhat small and sensitive. It starts out by maybe giving you a view of the Eightfold Path, and also telling you to focus on karma.

[64:34]

telling you that karma is important and developing the ability to observe this issue of ownership or not ownership and the qualities of karma but finally but right view accompanies each one of the other stages you have to have right view in order to right view is how you If it's right intention, right view is to see this is right speech and this is wrong speech. That's right view. So in the presentation of each one of the other stages in some scriptures, at the beginning of right intention, at the beginning of right speech, it's a right view. So at the beginning of each one of these other phases, you start with right view. So right view is to check to see what this particular practice is. Right view is the cognition or the recognition of what is right speech and what is wrong speech.

[65:38]

What is right? So right speech is at the beginning of each one of these, so it goes all the way around. But right speech finally after you get the whole, all the other aspects, after Right Speech helps you practice all the other practices, and after all the other practices are happening, they help Right Speech become the entire realm of truth. So Right Speech then, I mean, Right View becomes the vision of the Four Noble Truths, and basically the vision of the entire range of Dharma. So it is enormous. And if you have a fairly well developed view, then right intention naturally comes out. And then from that right intention, right view, right speech naturally comes out. When you have properly developed, mundane right view, then properly developed mundane right intention comes.

[66:45]

And mundane means, mundane right view means you still see the world as self and other. You still think that you can do things on your own. You're still deluded to that extent. Your right view hasn't become the view of no self. You don't yet see no self and other. You still see self and other, but within that you see how self and other work pretty well, and you're diligent about studying that. So this is right in the same way. It's not yet penetrated the duality of self and other, but within duality you're clearly committed and clearly understand you must study this and you're ready to do that. you have the intention to study, you see the importance of study. So that means when you speak, you see the importance of being aware of your motivation, and you understand what right speech is, and you're committed to watch to see if it's right speech or not.

[67:58]

Now, until you have realized right speech, in some sense your commitment is not complete. But at least, even before you're really 100% committed, at least you might be 100% committed to studying it. And again, you might not be able to stop some of these habitual ways of talking, but you might be able to continue these bad habits. And again, as I said before, if you watch it over and over enough, there will be transformation. But as your right speech becomes right speech and right action and right livelihood becomes right livelihood, and then as you move into right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration, then you move into realizing the super mundane or the true right view where you cut through the duality of self and

[68:59]

And then when you come in to practice right speech, it's even more wonderful, because now it's not even you doing it. Still it's not harsh, and still it's not idle chatter, and still it's the truth, but no longer are you doing it. So it's purified and then it's like even more expansive and more helpful. So did that clarify the order somewhat? Yes. I was thinking, in the break, of a significant conversation that I've had with people in the last day, by writing a very few of these petitions. I just made, you know, if I was in them, they'd be red, they'd be, they'd be, it's toxic to have words with so many information.

[70:03]

or trying to make a certain dish, or inviting my neighbors, children over to play with my animals, or kids that we got to the vet before to protect them. And even Bob, if she wanted to play with a dog, with a stick, and he wasn't actually sticking, because he doesn't, but in effect, actually was saying, hello there, dog, I'm happy to see you, and I'd like to do something that could be a pleasure. You know, he was saying something, but are all these things, I'm a chatterer. Pardon? I know you said eye chatter is fine when a person is under stress and lights things up. Yes. Are what things you would normally want to avoid? Well, like with a dog, for example, you know, I think for a dog, what they're up for is somewhat limited.

[71:14]

And so... But he was giving the dog what the dog was up for. If we give dogs what we would give an advanced Zen student, the dog might feel insecure. Like an advanced Zen student teacher might believe in advanced Zen all day. But then is it appropriate, is it not idle chatter to be relating with the dog? Like, I love my animals, I relate to them. Yeah, I think for them, relating to them where it might be idle chatter with a human might be appropriate for them. And to them, the way you might to a human who is practicing meditation might be traumatic for them because they might feel abandonment. And they might not be able to get over it. Whereas a Zen student or the meditator might feel abandonment too.

[72:15]

A teacher locks them up in a room and leaves them, maybe. But it might be something that they can have because they have certain capacities that a dog doesn't have. But the dog might be traumatized and never get over it. Do you know what I mean? Like, I have a little dog. She's very darling and, you know, totally lovable and endearing, but she's insecure, and she gets really scared at the possibility of being left alone. It's like that's the most horrible thing in the world to her, if she'd be left in the house alone. So, and it's not like, you know, she's going to... I don't think she's going to get over that by getting exposed to that experience, whereas some people, at the right time, it's really good for them. So... ...better between people might not be idle child between people and animals. So I guess the point is, what is the path of the creature that you're dealing with? What is their optimal adjustment with their...

[73:20]

And are you distracting them from it by your speech? And are you distracting yourself from your own suffering by your speech? If you're distracting yourself, rather than settling yourself into your suffering, then I would say it's idle chatter. Sometimes, you know, being sometimes lighthearted and playful helps a person settle into a painful situation. You know what I mean? Some people are kind of tense, you know, they're in some difficulty and they're kind of tense. And sometimes a joke will help them relax into it. Like I just gave this retreat in England and they thought it was very funny. They kept saying over and over, we really appreciate your humor. But I didn't feel like they were getting distracted. I felt like my humor helped them settle into their suffering. That if you push them, you know, Generally speaking, but I get the impression if you push English people, they know what to do about that.

[74:25]

They know how to fight back. They're tough. You can't force them to face their suffering if they don't want to. They know how to. They can be really strict. They still know how to do the stiff upper lip thing, right? See that lip there? But with humor, humor, they can settle. They can relax. So for them, humor is really good. What's wrong with Isle of Shatter? What's wrong with Isle of Shatter? If it lightens things up and helps people get more connected, it's not idle chatter. Then it's helpful. It's not idle chatter. ...are distracted already, or even when people are concentrated, and you practice idle chatter and distract them from their work, that's what I call idle chatter.

[75:28]

It undermines people's work, you know. It undermines what they're trying to concentrate on sometimes. Some people are trying to concentrate. Other people come up and do idle chatter with them, and they can't. They do what they like to work on. And they don't really join in the idle chatter. It doesn't do any good. They just feel distracted. And the other person may be also trying to get somebody else to share in their distraction from their work. Now, on the other hand, if someone is attached to something, a little idle chatter might help them release. It might help them practice non-attachment. But it wouldn't really be idle chatter. It would just sound like idle chatter. It would actually be really serious. How about only yelling that the Zen masters did in the... The yelling that the Zen masters did in the hitting with the staff? Yeah, to wake people up. Yes, what... You mean, what is that about? Well, it seems that that could be beneficial, too.

[76:35]

Well, in those stories, in almost all those stories, it was beneficial, because they yell in the... Right? Do they wake up, though? That's right, but do they wake up? Are the children enlightened? Are the children enlightened? Yeah. And that's sort of my background, that culture, where you can speak your mind. Yeah, yeah. Chicago. Yeah. And so this culture is very unfamiliar to me. What's this culture? The white speech culture. Be really appropriate about everything.

[77:37]

It's the same thing. Well, go ahead. Go right ahead. No problem. I look forward to see what you say next. It makes life easier rather than, you know, dissect everything in your head. What makes life easier? What you're about. Without, you know, necessarily... modifying everything that they're going to say. Right. That would make life much easier, wouldn't it? Just to say what you're about. That would be real. That's right speech. Is to say where you're at. That's right speech. That's much easier. Right speech, when you actually get it, it's easy. And it is actually just saying what you're about. That's what right speech is, definitely. And it's very much easier than to try to think about it beforehand. Definitely.

[78:42]

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