And they both went back to their bosses and told their bosses, and their bosses told their bosses, and their bosses told their bosses, and their bosses told Kennedy and Khrushchev. And they found out, you know, that the other side didn't really want this war. And in the last minute, they stopped it. Being honest and compassionate, maybe they turned it around. I don't know how these things can work, but that's one story. But they had to be honest and they had to meet. And all of us can meet ourselves and others all day. So, there is a chance to make peace in the world by loving the person that you are and loving the person you meet. By being patient with your pain and being patient with the pain you feel about their pain. There are other ways to help. it seems like they'd be based on this one.

[01:03]

There's other opportunities to help, but they need to be grounded in our own suffering. If we try to reach out and help somebody without being grounded, we'll fall on our face. Just as we're about to do some good, we'll slip because our feet aren't on the ground. That's what I feel. I've told this story many times, too, before. It's in the scriptures, the story of an acrobat, of an acrobatic family, of a father-daughter acrobat team. And the father's got the daughter up with his hands, and the father says, be careful, daughter. Take care of yourself. And the daughter says, no, you take care of yourself. I need you to take care of yourself. But we often are worried about the one up there and forget about the one down here. But this is where we are.

[02:07]

We've got to take care of this. And then maybe we can reach out and do something really skillful. But if you don't have your feet in your own suffering, you ought to touch. But basically, I don't know. I'm just, this is my faith. Yes? Nothing will go out of the way to the degree that you understand.

[03:14]

Excuse me, you don't count that? Isn't that a practice? So why did you say it was impossible yet? Oh, you can't notice? Well, then isn't that a practice? It is a practice. Noticing self and other is a practice. The delusion of self and other is just a delusion. But noticing that delusion is practice. Noticing the delusion, the basic delusion, to notice that, to notice if there's any anxiety around that. Is there some anxiety around that? Yeah, probably. To notice that is practice. And also, to notice that you feel like you can't practice is practice. And to notice how it feels when you feel like you can't practice is practice.

[04:33]

And to be patient with the pain that you feel when you think you can't practice is practice. You can practice patience at work, definitely. As a matter of fact, Zen Center has a monastery that you know about, right? Called Tassajara. And in a way, Tassajara is not as good for practicing patience as a job in the city. Because people aren't as rude and competitive at Tassajara as they are in a lot of business situations. There's some competitiveness, like who is most on time to the meditation. Who has the best attendance record for meditation? Who does the teacher like best? I kind of messed that up. It's not clear who is actually getting promoted. And it's not clear who is getting paid the most. So anyway, the competitive level in the monastery, I think, is considerably lower than in a lot of work situations.

[05:37]

So the practice of patience is... this thing easy, but you have a lot more opportunities in the city. And compassion also, people are suffering in some ways so much more in the city, or so much more obviously, or in any way in special ways there, that compassion is also possible to practice at work. So at work, you can practice compassion, and you can notice this self-other thing, and the pain about that, and the anxiety about that, you can notice that. And you can also practice mindfulness. You can also notice how when you don't practice mindfulness you make mistakes. You can also notice how you rush. You can also notice how your greed causes you to rush and your competitiveness offers you to rush and barge in ahead of people in conversations. You can also watch how your timing is off or on. How you're not speaking enough, or you're speaking too much.

[06:41]

And how you let yourself not speak enough, when you really should be raising your hands and making the big T to the other person, and telling them that you would like to know if they just want to do a monologue, if they want a conversation. And so there's lots of opportunities. Is it hard at work? Yes. But it's not impossible. It's just hard. Everybody says it's hard. Some people say it's impossible. It seems so hard. Yeah, I know. It is hard. What's easy is not practicing. It's painful, but it's easy. You can be lazy and not practice. Right? But to practice you can't be lazy. Easy to be lazy, hard to give up laziness. What do you say?

[07:45]

It's good? Are you encouraged? Great. Did you have your hand raised before, Basya? Chris? Chris? Is there any particular area of patients you'd like me to address? Not really? The general concept. What haven't I said before? Anybody think of something I haven't said before about patients? It's not working. Pardon? Can you give me an example, Adam, of patience?

[09:28]

Yeah. We've just done a workshop, and we've just started to go out and travel a lot. We've been raised together. And we've had a lot of fun online. And we've been here for about a year. And we had a birthday party this time. And we've had a lot of fun online. And I think, you know, you know, I'm going to say this. How did that happen? How did that happen? How did that happen?

[10:54]

I did too. How did that happen? How did that happen? I think I have them in there. And once it comes to me when something happens that I don't like, don't want to come, then I try to teach them or do anything. Then they have to figure it out. And I'm looking at if they're happening. So if there's something that's happening, they're saying, I don't want it to happen. I pull that from there. because of that period happening. And that can, that can turn over a lot of things. And to not be reactive. So again, oftentimes, do you get a, you know, attention from myself?

[11:56]

And then that really is the, [...] Here's kind of an example that is a little bit risky, but anyway. Sometimes people say stuff that's painful. And If I can just stop for a second and say, oh, that really hurt. This really hurts. Right then, I'm going to articulate it for myself.

[13:09]

you know, honor the pain really fully right away. I think that's what I'm going to do. When I was a kid, when I was about eight years old, I started hearing a ringing in my ear that wasn't really a sound. And you only hear it when things were quiet. When I was alone, by myself, in my room, I'd hear this ringing. When I first heard it, I thought, Is that my conscience?

[14:16]

Somehow I thought it might be my conscience telling me I did something wrong or that it was God. You know, this is the way God was talking to me by a ringing which wasn't a ringing. Anyway, I didn't know what it was and it happened. And around the time Around the time when I had that other insight I told you about when I was 13, when I realized that if I was just kind to everybody, my problems would disappear, I also thought I understood what the ringing was. And what I thought it was, and I still get the ringing sometimes, is that I remembered, well, I heard the ringing and I wanted to know, what is it? And then I remembered that during the day, at school, there was one of those occasions when, like, you know, some girl looked at me askance or something, or, you know, somebody said something, you know, not so much rude, not really mean, but some little thing that hurt.

[15:32]

But it was so small, or, you know, seemed to be so unimportant that I didn't I just barely felt it. It bothered me, but it wasn't like those things that bother you and you... It bothered me, but it wasn't like those things that bother you and you come home and you tell your mother or something or you tell your friend, you know, so-and-so was really mean to me. It wasn't that kind of thing. It was one of these little passing glances... that hurt. And you're kind of like, you're kind of like those cancers where you're wrong, but what is it? And you don't find it. Anyway, I remembered the thing that happened. And as soon as I remembered it and felt the pain of it, the ringing went away.

[16:35]

And then, when And again, throughout my life, whenever I find the ring, I just stop and I think, now what happened today that bothered me? That wasn't really, that didn't really bother me, but that bothered me. And I usually can remember it, and as soon as I remember it, the ringing goes away. It's the ringing. It is a kind of conscience. It's a ringing to say, you know, those moments that you weren't there, you know, where you... It could even be a moment when someone does something nice for you, but maybe you didn't really say, well, thanks. You got nervous and looked away or something. Sometimes when you weren't, you didn't face what happened, you shrunk back a little bit. and either didn't admit that you were hurt or that you were pleased. You were half-heartedly there. And when I have, when I have moments like that through my day, I have this ringing.

[17:39]

And then I remember what it is, the ringing goes away. So during some days there's these moments when I'm not completely there. Like I meet somebody, you know, like I met Linda's daughter. a while ago in Sacramento. And she's quite a big girl, and she's got a lot of energy. And she's not overwhelming, but she's very strong. And I must admit, when I met her, I was... A lot of teenagers have a lot of energy. You know, and it's not easy to meet them because, you know, they have so much energy. I mean, there's so much there and so much not there. There's so much kind of like, well, I'm here, but I don't know if I'm going to really be here. You know, you're an adult, you know, like, am I going to, like, pay attention or not?

[18:41]

They're kind of like watching to see. And if you, like, hang in there with them, they sometimes actually, like, give it to you. And then can you stay there? And I was, I stayed pretty well with her. But I had to work. to be there and I felt like that was good you you actually but sometimes you're with people and you kind of like veer away for a little while you can't stand the intensity it's almost painful you can't stand to be there you can't stand to face them and face how you feel and you veer away it's kind of impatience And if you can face these situations, which aren't necessarily painful, but they could be painful, the same kind of thing in patience. If you wait for pain to practice that, you may not be ready. So we can practice it in each meeting to actually, like, be there. And sometimes we're having a very nice meeting with someone, and it's really very nice, right?

[19:51]

But then... It's so nice that, well, when's it going to end? I mean, are we just going to sit here and be nice forever? You know? It's so nice, you know, there's no way to end it. How is it going to end? It's like, wow, this is like, the whole universe is opening up here. And it's hard to stay there. But if you stay there, eventually the two of you figure out how to end it without either one kind of running away but it's not easy and the times in the day when i turn away from those things and later i have the ringing unless i turn away and i'm really aware that i'm turning away and say hey i can't handle this i'm out of here this is like too much if i admit it then i then then i admit it But that's patience too.

[20:54]

It's a subtle pain. It's kind of, it's this nervousness or this anxiety. You're on the verge of losing control, you know, like, like how would the conversation ever end? Or are you supposed to do something now? It's kind of like, in cases like that, the sentence often comes to my mind, what should we do next? You know, what should we do next is an out, right? Forget about next. What about now? This is too much, right? So next. Or where have you been? I think I told this story when I was in England recently. I was in France before that, and I was driving home from the airport with this man who had just given my daughter a ride to the airport, the man I was staying with. And he was being very nice and I wanted to be nice to him.

[21:57]

But I didn't want to go in the two directions that seem, you know, easy to talk about. Namely, the past and the future. I wanted to talk to him about something that was really happening here between us now. But I noticed my mind kept wanting to go to talk about where are you going? And I felt bad because I wasn't saying anything, and I wanted to offer him some kind speech. But everything I thought of was like a diversion from what was happening with us. I noticed how easy it is to mind to say, how long have you had your job? How long will you have your job? Rather than, how do you feel about your job now? Because I know he was having trouble, actually. Or how do you feel right now in the car with me? Would I dare to be intimate with him and ask that question?

[23:03]

It's so much easier to talk about some other time and some other place which I, you know, when he tells me, he's talking about something I know nothing about. So easy for me to ask him about something that's got nothing to do with us, rather than talk about, hey, you and I are together, what's that like? and that would have been really good but I couldn't say it but if I ever go back to France I promise to do it anything else yes Thank you.

[24:08]

It's not an action. It's not a lot of... It's just a... [...] Yes. Yes. Yes. Uh-huh. Okay. Something subtle? Something subtle? Well, one subtle thing would be that not misusing sexuality would... Or let's say not misusing sexuality would be that you would be... You would...

[25:30]

This isn't just for sexuality, but your sexual interaction with people would be harmless and beneficial. They're beneficial to you and the other person and to everybody in the universe. That they're beneficial to your mother and your father and your sister and the relatives of the other person, and so on, would be a beneficial thing. That would be one thing to consider. That's very subtle, but that's sort of one way. Another way would be, is there intimacy? Is there intimacy with the other person? And if there's not intimacy, then what would be the reason for becoming sexually involved?

[26:51]

Pardon? Yes, that would be one reason, wouldn't it? That would be one. And central desire, so there's central desire, but can you just sort of like, just say there's central desire now, what's that got to do with intimacy? It's something to deal with in the process, Now should you act with the other person that admits that there's some sensual desire? You have to be careful because if you bring up, they might think that you're trying, you're bringing it up in order to encourage acting on sexual sensual desire. So then you might say, I'd like to talk to you about, you know, what you're, you know, about our relationship. And before talking about that, which you might never talk about, or you might talk about, you would develop a relationship where you would understand what your mutual agendas were.

[28:00]

Are you interested in intimacy? Is this other person interested in intimacy? Is that what it is? And what is that? And, of course, in some sense, neither one of you know what it is. And are you both practicing patience with the fact that neither one of you know what it is? And that neither one of you know who each other are? But somehow you care about each other, are interested? Ask yourself, am I telling this person the truth? Ask this person, are you telling me the truth? Ask yourself if you're taking anything that's not given by this other person. Ask yourself if you feel this person's pressuring you to give anything that you're not ready to give. And if you feel they are, do you dare to ask Are you more developed than this person?

[29:25]

Is this person capable of being your peer? If not, can you be intimate with someone who is not your peer? In some sense, you know, like mother and child are intimate, but in some sense they're not intimate because the child doesn't know what the mother knows and won't know until the child grows up. So the kind of intimacy that goes with sexuality, I would say, is intimacy between peers so that one person doesn't know more about what's going on than the other. Otherwise it's not intimacy, I would say. to really find this balance, where you really do respect the other person as much as you respect yourself. And they to you. And you've checked out to find out. And they have with you.

[30:26]

Again, if this is the requirement, if intimacy is the requirement, then, again, the occurrence of sexual interactions of a certain type would be much better. But this kind of working on intimacy is a sexual relationship, because we are sexual beings. It's just that certain kinds of sexuality, I would say, shouldn't happen unless there's intimacy. Particularly the type of sexual interactions which are related to the... because they set off certain psychological effects, which, if there's not intimacy, is harmful. But also... uh... once that the main harm of it is that what do you call it you you give up intimacy for something else and that retards the development of it and i've heard that some people say that men use sex to get intimacy through sexual relationships they feel more intimate

[31:43]

with other people. Whereas women more want intimacy, and then sexuality is more an expression of that. When they feel intimate with someone, they often want to express it through sexuality. Whereas men, sometimes when they don't feel intimate, want to use sexuality to express intimacy. That's again a generalization, but it's something to consider. But I would say, ideally, both parties should be working on intimacy. And although women sometimes feel intimate with another person, comfortable to have sexual relationships based on that, they don't necessarily check to see if the other person feels intimate with them. In other words, they feel intimate, but it is a dream of intimacy. It's not true intimacy. It's her own... And the man or whoever is trying to use sexual relationships to get to intimacy, they don't get intimacy.

[32:48]

They get a feeling of intimacy. But it's not real intimacy, I don't think. Real intimacy is already there, and maybe they get a tap into it. But real intimacy, I think, is something that you, you know, I think that you, that you, you know, You can continue it once you find it. I'm just saying this, and who knows? But anyway, those are some of the things. And I think that the peer thing is very seldom met. Intimacy seldom happens, and therefore most sexual relationships are somewhat off. talking to people. Okay? Yes? Would it be correct to say that?

[33:58]

Well, I wouldn't say if you're not intimate with yourself it's impossible to develop intimacy. because you might be able to, even though you're not intimate with yourself, you might be able to work on intimacy with others at the same time that you're working on intimacy with yourself. But if you're not intimate with yourself, you can't be intimate with others. But later you might be able to, sometimes you can use a relationship as the situation in which you work on intimacy with yourself and with the other person simultaneously. Okay. Yes. Okay, great. Would anyone else care to make some parting statements? Doesn't have to be a question. An expression of your being or non-being.

[35:06]

Any other final statements you'd like to make? ...that the interactions are most helpful. There has to be a little bit of presentation of material in order for our interactions to... Otherwise we're coming from all over the place and people don't necessarily know what we're talking about. But the interactions are what count because that's what we're going to do when we leave the workshop. ...interacting. So it's nice to see it, you know. Anything else?

[36:10]

Yes. You'd like to have a song, okay. Going once. Going twice. Going three times. Sold. What song should we do? Pardon? I have a lot in mind, but if there's some suggestions... Let's see. Which one should we do today of my old, boring songs? Yes? But I forgot it.

[37:12]

Do you remember it? Actually, it's both off to work we go and home to work we go, because these dwarfs work at home. I think it's, hi-ho, hi-ho, it's No time to say hello, goodbye. Hi-ho, hi-ho, hi-ho, hi-ho, hi-ho. It's... We did? Somebody know that?

[38:17]

That old boring one? Yeah, that one. One more time? Oh. You can't? Oh, you can't. Huh? No, I can do it over and over because that's the kind of song it is. It's a song about being a silly little kid. We can do songs over and over, even though we've done them a million times. When the red, red robin comes, bop, bop, bop, and along, along, there'll be no more sobbing when he starts. Sweet song. Wake up, wake up, you sleepy head. Get up, get up, get out of bed. Cheer up, cheer up, the sun is red. Live, love, laugh and be happy. Though I've been blue, now I'm walking through fields of blue.

[39:19]

Rain may glisten, but still I listen for hours and hours. I'm just a kid again, doing what I did again, singing a song. When the red, red robin comes bop, bop, bopping along, bop, bop, bopping along.

[39:40]

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