It trusts that whatever you do to it is supporting its life as a wind-bell. The wind-bell trusts that whatever wind comes is giving life to the wind-bell. Even a real weak wind, it blows the wind-bell really weakly so the wind-bell doesn't even make any sound, you know? Doesn't move the things enough for them to bump into each other. Wind-bell that's having stronger wind because there's no sounds coming off me. No. No. And sometimes the wind blows the wind below, you know, apart. That sometimes happens. So personality is how we can free the way their body behaves, teaches us. And again, we have to learn to see, is this a body of a person who is enlightened to some extent but still has a bunch of habits? That could be the case. So you shouldn't assume that somebody who has some understanding won't still have a bunch of habits. If they seem to be somewhat rigid still and have an agenda and not be flexible, that's because they're not done yet.

[01:10]

They're not cooked. They haven't cooked their old habits in the face of their insight. So don't assume that because somebody's supposed to understand something that that means they don't have any old habits. Assume, oh, that's enlightenment. Don't assume that somebody who has some understanding wants to have a bunch of habits. So if they seem to be somewhat and have an agenda and not be flexible, that's because they're not done yet. They're not cooked. They haven't cooked their old habits in the face of their insight. So don't assume that because somebody's supposed to understand something that that means they don't have any old habits and you should assume, oh, that's enlightened behavior. Enlightened behavior will have this quality of being just like. It'll be just what's helpful. And there'll be no attachment, and you can test it by blowing on it from various directions.

[02:13]

Moves that way. Moves that way. Hey, it doesn't move that way. Stuck there? Are you stuck? Hello? And... That was a good one. Okay? Get the picture? Paul? Yeah. Doesn't the window have a kind of meta-agenda? Does it have that agenda? Well, it does have that agenda, but it's not so much saying that... you know, look at me, I'm what you should be. It's more saying, you are like me, you don't get it, and you're suffering. If you tell me that you're as alive as you can be, if you tell me you're not afraid of anything, if you tell me you're top of the line in love with all being, then you get it.

[03:21]

But if you don't get it, then I want you to get it because you tell me you're not happy. So if not so much I say you should be like me, it's more like I see what you are. I see you're beautiful. You tell me you're not. And I say, well, I want you to see that you are. I want you to see you are a windmill rather than I think. So yeah, I do have that agenda. I do have that vow. I want you to see this. I naturally want you to know how beautiful you are. You already know what it's like to think you're not beautiful. So I want you to learn that, yeah. But the very important thing is that I won't love you anymore after you find out that you're beautiful than I do before. So if it takes you eons to learn this, it isn't like I'm sort of saying, well, I don't like you between now and then. And in fact, I think you have to love people. Otherwise, it's like, okay, trash, you know. You know, get thee to the other side. You know, become... no it's like you're beautiful now and you'll be beautiful a different way when you're a buddha when you realize what you are and i would like to be part of that and i would like to see you when you understand that i would like to i would like to be there when you wake up that would be a big nice thing for me to but i won't think that that's an improvement i just feel impelled

[04:49]

to offer you a learning opportunity because I think that would be great. So I use the example over and over of my daughter learning to ride a bicycle. I didn't love her any more after she learned to ride a bicycle than before, and if she had never learned that would have been fine, but I always wanted to help her learn. And when she learned it was as much fun as I thought it would be, but she wasn't a better person afterwards. Matter of fact, she was a little bit more dangerous than before. But, you know, and Buddhas are in some sense more of a danger to pedestrians too. But still, you know, we want people to learn to be Buddhas when we see that they have this ability. Now, if my daughter was crippled, I'd never think of her riding a bicycle. I would have think, you know, maybe that she would learn to swim or something. But if her legs didn't work, I wouldn't maybe think of that.

[05:51]

Or maybe I would think of getting her an electric bicycle. But it depends on the person, what you want for them. You see a person's potential, you see their potential, you want to help them realize it. Because you can see what they can be. So you do have that agenda. But there's infinite things they can be. Anything else you want to bring up? Yes, JP. Want to come up? What time is dinner? 5? JP? Yes. This morning you talked about the fragility of the ego dealing with the forces of the instinct.

[06:55]

The fragility of the ego? Yeah. Did I? I got it. It was a week ago. Oh, I was quoting Freud. Freud saying, poor creature. Kind of feeling sorry for the ego. It's got a hard job. It's got to mediate between the impersonal, you know, primitive passions of the and the superego and the external world. It's got to, like, work this off. It feels that it has to do this. It's not so much fragile, actually. It's a tough little bugger. It just got a hard job. I guess I was taking it to the... My own parallel to, you started talking about the self after that, and what keeps us from seeing the self. I would make a relationship between the ego and the self based on that.

[07:58]

Well, you know, it's called the self. Sometimes what we mean by self, this is part of the confusion of the word self, sometimes self is used for I, right? Ego means I. Sometimes self and I are equated. So like that ego up there, ego, one self, I, one self. You can take away the . So they can be used somewhat interchangeably. I guess I'm still not getting to it, the idea of what was blinding us from seeing self. What blinds us from seeing self? Well, mostly what... First of all, that we're not looking at it, that we're distracting ourselves from the area where the self is. The self is actually kind of in the field of experience. That's sort of where it is. It actually is a psychophysical...

[08:59]

the concoction built of various body-mind components. So there's the self. Ego is out there in this field of experience, right? So J.P. is saying, what blinds us from seeing the self? Well, the first thing that blinds us from seeing the self is that we're distracting ourselves from it. We're distracting ourselves from it. by self-mortification and indulgence in addictions to pleasure. That takes our attention away from what's happening. So if you don't see what's happening, it's hard to see the actual fundamental self. Because it's not actually blindness at first, it's distraction and ignoring it. Now, when you first turn back to your experience, then you're not really blinded anymore in terms of your experience, but you may be looking at it, and it may be a very confusing situation.

[10:04]

You may not be able to tell where the self is because, you know, you're not familiar with looking for a self. And even though you hear instructions about looking, those instructions are coming into a person who's full of all kinds of experience and habits of distraction. It's a big mess. Look at your experience in a balanced way and stay steadily observing your experience until you can kind of see. And listen to instructions about what the self might look like and watch and finally see. Oh, there it is. There's the self. There's this sense. of a subjective consciousness or a conscious subject. I see, you know, I see. There's a witnessing of a conscious subject. Then you can see it. It still makes a confusion. but at least you may have found it. But it takes a while for most people to actually see this conscious self.

[11:06]

And I say it takes a while for most people to see it, but I mean it takes a while for the awareness of that to be born, the awareness of this. It takes a while for the witnessing of this to arrive. If you have a sense of a person who's out here, who was watching a person, then that person, that sense of this person who's watching it, that's it. That's the self. That's the conventional idea of a subjective, a conscious subject, the one who is seeing the field of experience. But actually, it's not out there. It's in the field of experience, the field of experience and all around it. Does that make more sense? And everything in this field is fragile. Everything is constantly changing, constantly changing, impermanent phenomena that we're looking at. The personality is fragile and is impermanent.

[12:17]

And part of what it's there for is to kind of, it's an impermanent statement in opposition of impermanence. That's built, and it's an impermanent edifice, and the name of the edifice is somewhat permanent. So it's an impermanent thing called permanence. The idea of permanence is an impermanent thing. We believe in an impermanent thing called permanence. We believe in an impermanent thing, which is the idea of permanence. We believe in an impermanent thing called a personality, which is saying there's some stability here. This is kind of a solid thing. And this solid thing was born to some extent to protect us from the opposite of our inherent ignorance.

[13:27]

Our inherent ignorance is that something exists all by itself. In other words, really exists. That's our inherent ignorance. Flip side of that is something really doesn't exist, something exists not at all. And if this sense that something really exists gets associated with this life, then all around this sense is it really doesn't exist at all. And in order to fight that constellated illusion, the first illusion is something exists all by itself, and it's got something to do with life. So this life exists all by itself. Life can exist as an independent entity. That's a possibility. This is fundamental ignorance. But that constitutes the possibility of the total annihilation of life.

[14:33]

nothingness non-existent and life gets nervous not existing at all and also life gets nervous about existing really because existing really constellates not existing at all so both of those ways of feeling about life make us very nervous but if you hold on to the one and create from the other, you can keep holding on to that. And the buffer we create to protect ourselves from the implication of our ignorance is our personality. It's a little fort that we use to protect ourselves from terrible consequences or implications of our ignorance. We all have a lot of challenges, yes.

[15:46]

Yes. I think that this culture... been a culture as rich as this one. I don't know if there's ever been as many, such a wide variety of, in a way, material distractions from our experience as this culture offers. People used to have other ways of distracting themselves from their suffering, like you used to tell stories at night, to get in and tell stories so people wouldn't like just, you know, it'd get dark and everybody just sitting there like facing their suffering, you know. You don't follow that? It was a distraction, pretty much. Well, like, let's, you know, you have a human being. It looks like from quite a long time ago, human beings were able to have this idea of ignorance, this ignorant idea. So then they were suffering.

[16:57]

So then at night, there they were again. What are you going to do? You can have sex, I guess. That would be good. You can eat in the dark. You can't really, you know, go swimming too easily. But you can also make a little fire and tell stories around the fire, and then everybody kind of like, you know, what's going, what's happening here? So, But now we have much more variety of distractions besides just sitting around telling stories or sex or food. We have 24-hour restaurants, bars, 24-hour supermarkets, 24-hour workout places. We have cities that are lit up so you can go running in the night, go swimming in the night. You can do anything. And then, of course, all these different kinds of chemicals So we have more opportunities to distract ourselves from our experience ever before, probably.

[18:02]

Except we don't have storytelling, which they used to have. Except here, yeah. Yet. One of the... aspect of personality that I see and personally feel is that some of the dysfunctional habits that I've come to understand about myself, like they were born as defenses against feelings of sadness or pain that often are difficult for young people, children, to make sense of, and so they may develop ways of trying to not be in touch with that. Many people, this process of trying to become intimate with their personality will require, in a way, coming to see these defensive habits and trying to understand where they come from, and then coming upon the original pain and experiencing a lot of pain.

[19:17]

And that's often a strong... not being able to be in the present. And so I wonder if you have suggestions for people about how their practice can maybe help them to tolerate difficult, painful feelings, sadnesses, and so on, in a way that they're no longer pushing the person to defend. Well, First of all, you need to, I think, have compassion for yourself and compassion for others, loving kindness to yourself, loving kindness to others. You need to feel that you have somebody to support you to do this work, like a teacher or teachers or fellow practitioners.

[20:18]

You need, I think, some understanding that this would be a good thing to do, that this hard work would be a good thing to do. You need to understand that there may be some benefit in facing this stuff. It isn't just facing pain for facing pain's sake. It's facing pain to see what the source of the pain is. You can hear about what the source... Most of you have heard of what the source of pain is. I told you already many times today what the source of the pain is. But to actually see it for yourself is a big difference. So you have to be where the pain is and see the source of it right at the place. And if you understand that as really protecting yourself, then that in combination with feeling a lot of love and support for yourself towards others and from others, that helps you. Plus you also need to be enthusiastic about this. Not just hear and think it's a good idea, but like be kind of revved up about it. Have a lot of energy and joy at the prospect of

[21:19]

And you have to be able to practice patience. In other words, you have to be able to feel the pain without wiggling a lot. And again, that's an art to tell the difference between forcing yourself and sticking your nose in the pain and relaxing into it. And experiencing the pain in the most comfortable way. Patience is actually the most comfortable way to experience a pain. The most comfortable way to experience the pain is to not force yourself in and not run away from it. In other words, understand there's no alternative to this pain at this moment. If you fight the pain, you just feed it or feed other conditions for other pain. So those are some of the things you develop to be able to do this difficult work. Excuse me.

[22:32]

Would you tell me your name? Jasmine. Jasmine, ladies and gentlemen. Anything else you want to bring up now? Yes. Yes. I'm trying to learn your name. What is it again? Ramaya. Ramaya? Ramaya. Ramaya. Earlier this afternoon was about desire and how to let go of desire. The other question that came about late this afternoon in my meditation was how to deal with aversion. Because it seems to me that my own experience, the very thing that I don't want to do, I end up doing. And I don't want to lose my temper.

[23:38]

I end up losing my temper. I don't want to... manifest the anger of my father and I am done. So there's a force, even if you don't like to do it, the way to deal with aversion as opposed to dealing with craving and desire. What's the difference between dealing with aversion and dealing with craving and desire? Aren't those both things that you don't want to do? The desire to... I thought you gave me two examples of things you didn't want to do called craving and the other one called aversion or hatred. Is that right? The prayer I made the earliest afternoon was the desire to...

[24:46]

the extreme desire to realize the self. Right. It's overarching. Trying to work too hard for it. Working too hard. Working too hard. Taking it too seriously. Right. Yeah. The opposite now, there is something I don't desire. In the first case, you were taking it too seriously, right? On the second case, you're also taking it too seriously. Yeah, that's a common characteristic. Yeah, so one of the things that's indicated here is to learn how to take it less seriously. Take both of these things less seriously. That will make it be able to... become intimate with them, understand them, and become free. It's the same pattern of too intensely interested, too serious about these phenomena.

[25:55]

It's like, yeah, this is too much, and this is too much, but that's enough. How can you be more accepting of these phenomena? Did you just exhale? You inhaled? Yeah. Did you exhale yet? Exhale. The same method as dealing with desire, which is let it take. Taking too seriously, misery. Taking too seriously, misery.

[26:58]

Taking too seriously, misery. Taking too seriously, misery. This information transforms your mind until your mind finds a way to not take it too seriously, but also not to take it not seriously enough. So this is another example of learning the middle way. Presentation of what it's like to be at an extreme table. Watch the extreme. Watch the extreme. See how it works. See how it works. Over and over. As many times as necessary until this observation transforms the mind. Seriously goes along with trying to change the mind. Watching it. Taking it seriously goes along with wanting to transform the mind. So wanting to transform the mind keeps you taking it too seriously. Trying to transform the mind with keeping yourself in the rut of taking it too seriously.

[28:05]

But accepting it for what it is and not seeking to transform the mind, not seeking anything other than what you've got, But if you seek to transform the mind, you're back in the thing of taking it too seriously. You're taking this mind which you want to transform too seriously, and you're taking transformation too seriously. But if you don't take transformation too seriously, there can be transformation. My teacher says, what we're doing is far too important to take seriously. So what you want to do is very important, but you just got to be careful not to take it seriously. Not to seek it. All these good things that you want, what do you want? No seeking of them. You want them, that's enough. That's enough.

[29:08]

And it's good that you want some of these good things, but seeking them... antithetical to realizing them. Because seeking them means you don't have them now. Trashing yourself. Seeking them means you're not already Buddha. You want to realize Buddha? If you seek it, you say, I'm not Buddha, you're in trouble. You just made yourself not Buddha. Stop that. Why do you stop it? Just don't seek. Don't seek, you're But don't space out and not seek. Be right in the middle of your life and see all this crap and not seek. See how you're taking things too seriously and how terrible that is and not seek. See how cruel you are and not seek. Yes? Yes? How important is the W-H-Y?

[30:18]

That wasn't a why question. The question was, how important is why? She didn't say why, blah, blah. You know, I don't answer why questions. Because I find why is, generally speaking, a very disempowering word. But you didn't say why. You said, how important is why? And I'd say why is important. It's important to be very careful and get permission from me before you use it. It's a very dangerous word because it tends to put you in a position where you disempower yourself and think somebody else or something else has the information. It distances you. So I recommend putting why aside until you get more enlightened. And in the meantime, use how, what, where, who, and when.

[31:19]

Stay away from why for the time being. Judy? Both. Both, yeah. I think in and physics, new chemistry, y is OK. But when it comes to talking to people about suffering, y makes you suffer more, I think. How, however, when you're dealing with suffering, how does not increase the suffering, it brings you closer to it. Doesn't increase the suffering, it brings you closer to it. Where is relevant? Who is relevant? What, you know? But why is a distraction from being in commitment with the suffering, I think, isn't it? It pushes it away. And even if you get an answer, it's kind of like it just leads to another. Whereas where, At Middle Eastern, another question, but you're getting closer and you're getting closer and closer.

[32:26]

Where? Where is it? Where's the pain? And when did it happen? And who did it happen to? And how did it happen? These bring you closer. Why pushes you away from suffering and also pushes you away from practice. You say, why should we practice? It means, okay, I'm not going to start and tell you, you know, I'm going to hold back a little bit and tell you something. Why we practice. But if you say, how do we practice? When do we practice? Where do we practice? What do we do to get a little bit closer? See the difference? Exactly. It's up in the head here. It's up in the head, which, again, is where most physicists, mathematicians, chemists, and so on, that's where they are. And this is a great thing, right? But how brings you down. What brings you down into more of your body, I think.

[33:37]

Roberta told me that during our session, our 11 to 1 session, she found it was very tiring, did you say? Did you say it was tiring, the session before lunch? Tiring. Your energy dropped. So how's your energy, folks? Is your energy dropped? Huh? How's your energy? Low? Do you have some suggestion? Let's break? Okay. Let's break. But let me know if your energy dropped. I'd like you to tell me. I'd like energy dropped. Do you feel your energy dipping? open browser open browser should I read it should I I should it's to you did you want to tell me something it's free why don't you read it you want a mic

[34:43]

Hi, Ray. At the end of the session, these are people who go to the program office in the community building before having dinner. These people go to the program office in the community building before having dinner. Deanna Hoisman, Greg Smith, ,, ,, Judy Lennon, Jasmine ,, and Gwen . So I have seven, then? OK. So why don't you come back at seven? One, right one.

[35:59]

Right. One, two, three, four. If you think of it, while we're sitting, and I'm sitting on the floor, I'd suggest a cockpit for me. And I'd have to sit in a chair a lot, like it was bad, and leave properly. Before you cook, I would suggest you try to cook over the stove. Is there anything you'd like to bring up? You can't, John. Would you give me a clock, please?

[37:09]

Can you hear me now? Okay. I wanted to talk about something that relates to a talk you gave a couple of months ago In regards to the middle road and experience, I recall that it had to do with letting go of experience. In order to become free, we don't live with our past, our future, but we're in the here and now. And the question has to do with, okay, so we'd like to have experience, but experience is a reality.

[38:21]

And so... If that's true, then my experiences are part of my personality. And that's my story. Okay? So... I go to a psychotherapist and I have a session and I talk about a bad childhood. I talk about parents being divorced, sort of being isolated, very young, no guidance, no support, blah, blah, blah. And then I also talk about at the same time around the world that this is happening. And while I was sitting there, she rewrote my story and said, wow, you've had a very rich path to tell them. And I started to think about that, and I thought, hmm, that story sounds pretty good. I like that one better than mine. And so that's forgetting about those experiences.

[39:28]

Or how do I become free of those experiences and not have them reflect in my grown-up personality? Or how do I become free of them? How do you feel them now? Right this minute I am, I would have to get into a situation where there would be like a conditioned response. You know, let's say, for instance, do you want an example? Is that available? Ooh. I've never seen that anywhere, no. Okay, so let's see, let me pick one out. Say, Okay, let's say I was illiterate as a cow, and people said, ah, you can't read so-and-so, I'm getting picked on a lot. And then, when I get in front of a group, and I'm reading aloud, I'll hear that voice will come back, and I'll have to be in a conditional response, or I could go blank.

[40:39]

But I can't party, but I can read, but it's just sort of something that was formed, you know, so I'll draw a blank. Is that a good example? Yeah, a good example. You said you draw a blank when the thought of a memory of not being able to read arises in your mind while you're reading. Yeah, or someone telling me I can't. A memory of you can't read more out of your mind now, and then you might not be able to read. Right, right. And that's an experience. And that's a conditioned response that sometimes I can read and other times I can't. It'd be a blank. Right.

[41:46]

I'm joking around. Let's say that that happened, just as you say. What? A thought rising in your mind, and in response to that thought, you're unable to think for a while. Okay? Okay. What's the problem with that? Anxiety. Nervousness. Yeah, in that fact, the anxiety might have occurred before you were able to read. When you thought maybe that you won't read. Then you got anxious and then you couldn't read. That's another possibility, right? Yeah, possible. But anyway, you're anxious that you can't read. And the reason why you're anxious that you can't read is because you think people won't like that you can't read. They want to prove it to you. for not being able to read? Then I won't be able to express myself in a public reading.

[42:51]

Well, but you did express yourself in a way you were unable to read. That's how you express yourself in a public reading. Right, right. But other times it would be just completely fluent and not... Well, other times you'd be completely fluent in reading, but when you're completely fluent in reading, you might be fairly scared that you wouldn't be able to read. Okay. You might feel like if you weren't able to continue reading, that you're doing trouble. and therefore the cause of my suffering. Therefore, even though you're able to read, you're not free of your ability to read. You're kind of attached to it.

[43:53]

Right? Yeah. So am I grasping now? Well, not necessarily. You might be reading along, like reading a book in front of a bunch of people, and then suddenly you can't read anymore. And you might say, you might say, guess what, folks? I can't read. And then we might go, boo, boo, booey. We came here for you to read, and now you're not reading. We want our money back. Right. And that's my box. That's the box I want to get out. Spots of being stuck in that stuck mode. And the stuck mode is, I was invited to read a book tonight, and I accepted to read the book, so I'm going to come up and read the book.

[44:56]

And that's what I'm going to do, and that's what's going to happen. And I've agreed to do what I said I'm going to do. And I'm scared if I don't do what I said I'm going to be able to do. And I think you're scared if I can't do it too. So we're mutually agreeing, both of us to agree to do what we expect with each other, rather than if something else came up, it would be that. So when something else does come up, because in fact we're not what we're planning to be, we kind of feel like, uh-oh, I'm not the person I was planning to be at this time, and they probably don't like that because they didn't come here to be what I am. They came to be what I was advertised to be. Right. And some people, like I said, might go, boo, we didn't come here for you to have a nice break time. We didn't come here for you to be experiencing what's happening in such a way that you can't read this book anymore. They might do that.

[45:59]

It's possible. Right. But they might not. It depends on various things, like who the people are and how scared they are of something that they weren't planning on having happen. Right. I mean, that helped. Just putting it in front exposes anxieties and fears, and then that's, to a certain extent, looking at them in the eye. Can I talk a little more quickly? A quick one? Yes. That's distractions. Okay, it's one about distractions? Yeah, distractions that we were talking about earlier and then, you know, right before the break about the, you know, in the old days it had the sex and the stories and the... sit around the fire, whatever. And so they were distracted. Today in our society, we're distracted a lot from dealing with our suffering.

[47:04]

And so how, it's a hard question. How do I, what's the best way for me not to be distracted? What's the best way for you not to be distracted by all the distractions that are in everyday life, everywhere I go? Everyone else is doing them. Anything from, you know, like you said, maybe going to the gym, maybe going out for a drink, maybe going on a trip. But distractions are... I think... I don't know about the best way, okay? Let's just say all ways. Okay, let's start with always rather than the best. It might come up on the best in the process, but always is to actually, well, always is to enjoy being pregnant once.

[48:12]

Where, like, how about now? Are you present now? Yeah. Are you present here right now with all these people and everything? Yes, I am. With all your feelings and everything, you're present? Yeah. Pretty much just present. No big deal, right? Right. Our way is to enjoy being present once. Where? Like, how about now? Are you present now? Yeah. Are you present here right now with all these people and everything? That's right. With all your feelings and everything, you're present. Yeah. Pretty much just present. No big deal, right? Yeah. And yet, although it's not such a big deal, is this

[49:19]

I have to say yes. You have to say yes? I say yes. You say yes. And is it true that you want to be like this? Yes. I do want to be like this today. Or do you want to be like this long? Yeah. Yeah. So this is the main thing, I think, that this is the way you want to be now. And if you want to be like this now, I mean, again now, this is kind of like again now. You want to be like this again now? Yes. Yeah. You know what? Guess what? I'm there again now. Yeah. And guess what else? I'm there again now. Yeah. And what else? I'm there again now. Yeah. And do you like this? I like this. Yeah. Yeah. Is it a big problem? No. No.

[50:30]

No. And I'm here with you. This is the way. I'm happy to be with you this way, and [...] this way. You got company now, too. Right. Well, does everybody else want to be with him? Yes. With him? Yes. Is this OK that he's this way? Yes. So we're all supporting you, too, it turns out. And you're supporting them. Is he supporting you? Yes. And can we have a conversation just being together like this? Oh, we can. Thank you. Yeah, you're welcome. And rather than, you know, talking yourself into being present, what really works is that you like it. That, you know, you kind of feel like, this is the way I want to be. And then you get off. You know? And sometimes you get off and maybe you pick up, I don't know, like there's some little, let's call them Easter candies on the table there.

[51:38]

You see them? There's a little peep, little Easter chicks, right? Little Easter chicks. And they're over there on the table. Now you can pick up that Easter chip, that Easter cheep. You can pick it up. And you could open that package, and you could have one of those. But as you pick the package up, you might say, now, what am I up to here? Am I going to eat these sheep? What's the point of eating these sheep? And maybe just put them down. You might eat them. You might just put them down because it's not really, you don't necessarily want to go off into eating the cheese. It's just as good just to, like, holding them in your hand is pretty much as good.

[52:39]

Slightly better, actually. In a way, because then you don't have to eat, you don't have to have a garbage anymore. Well, maybe still be pregnant a little bit. Yeah. So you're picking them up and you're being pleasant and kind of like, well, you're about to end down now. And you're on the verge of distracting yourself by eating the cheese. But you didn't. Because you kind of felt like you didn't need to because you were good enough just to touch them, actually. Or even look at them was probably enough. But if you felt the impact, You might just ask yourself, do I really want to go there? But if you have this to refer to, then you can say, no, I want to be like this. OK.

[53:42]

OK? You're welcome. Bobby, did you want to say something to us? I feel an enormous gratitude to you and everybody. I was very much impressed by the exercise that you gave about bidding off and saying my name. And I saw everybody expressing themselves, everything that they felt.

[54:45]

And I came to the realization of something that I have heard many times, but they were worse than me, about that we are good, good in nature, just that we have to realize it. And that became obvious to me when everybody spoke, because I found that many of the people that spoke were anxious, but at one point they reached a point that was so obvious, and I saw a root of it. I remember grandma talking about, you know, the garage through the foot. And when he was here, he was very present. And I feel so much gratitude for being present because most of my life, I have all these voices keeping me.

[55:54]

or something that I directly, or something that I time, or what. And I was always founding myself. And I saw in these people things like that. That's what makes a manager's voice become the background that didn't allow them to be who they are. And I have been practicing lately to be very loving and kind with myself. You know, you said these voices didn't allow them to be who they are. I would say that those voices challenge them to be who they are. It's not easy to be who you are when inside or outside people are yelling at you. But it doesn't stop you from being who you are. It just makes it difficult. But the advantages will be the challenging opportunity it is that you have to come up with more skill.

[56:59]

You still have to challenge. And if it's not hard, your skill level levels up. It doesn't develop. So, very good because I've been challenged a lot by that. You know, I was the youngest in the family of four. So I had, you know, from father, mother, and the other siblings to always, you know, getting me down. And there were, you know, more than 50 people, you know, that were there. And But I am applying a lot of love and thanks to myself to be able to give me a break and feel good about myself. And that is making me feel with the joy of love.

[57:59]

So I wanted to thank you, Roy, for your creativity and your revival of self-conception. That's it. Thank you. Howdy. Help the energy level. Anyone who hasn't thought, told us something, would like to come and speak to us? Tell us something. Anyone like to endanger themselves? My name is David, and I'm an alcoholic. And I'm here in the forest. Especially when you put him back to me, there's tremendous love that is great, that's all I want.

[59:16]

And it's much more worthwhile than being the victim because it's good or the right thing to do. And I wish you could say more about the love that Tracey's youth was included in for all of us. You're asking about how does it work that when we become intimate with ourselves and accept ourselves, energy is released. Is that your question? Right.

[60:24]

You're familiar with that relief of energy. That relief is a secret provider. The energy that was previously being spent on resisting what's going on is no longer being spent that way, so it's available for other purposes. And I think there's this wonderful energy source that we're constantly surrounded by. I guess part of my question is, how are we cut off from it?

[61:29]

So how are we cut off from it? How are we cut off? Where are we cut off from it? When are we cut off from it? And what is it like to be cut off? Well, you have the stuff you did. So asking those questions and looking, how are you cut off from it? And also, what is it like to be cut off from it? Looking at what it's like to be cut off from it, usually if we turn away from this love, we turn away from feeling what it's like to turn away from it. But to ask, What's it like to turn away from this love? What's it like to be cut off from it? To put closer to it? People who feel cut off from it usually don't ask themselves the question about what it's like to be cut off.

[62:32]

But they often might ask themselves that, to miss you farther away. Why did this happen to me? And then why didn't, you know, why don't I get as much love as so and so? No. How don't I feel as much love as so and so? What is it like to not feel loved? Invoke it. Get the question, then just close it. But it's a painful question, isn't it, sometimes? How am I not loved? How are you not loved? What is it like to not be loved? And I think that, like, of course, only because you feel love do you dare ask the question, how am I not loved? If you didn't feel any love, you wouldn't feel so bad.

[63:33]

If not, if you feel bad enough, you wouldn't need to, you know, face the difficulty on top. But through the support of all beings, we can ask this question. And we'll get an answer. We'll find out how. And when you find out how, over and over, it's like eating cheap. Eating up cheap. And you keep asking yourself, you know, why? How am I eating it cheap? What are the cheap taste buds? You won't have to stop yourself. And if you keep asking yourself, how am I cut off? What is it to be cut off? You want to stop yourself from cutting yourself off. You'll just be transformed into someone who doesn't get involved in turning away from it anymore. But you may have to pace what it's like over and over until you slow down and really pace it to say, you know, I don't like you.

[64:37]

I actually don't like cutting myself off from love. I mean, there's certainly gangs that have been cut off from love because they feel all big and powerful and, you know, invulnerable, you know. But to me, I don't need love. I'm a cluster. That's nice, right? Isn't that nice to be big and tough? It is. No, it's not. Somebody will praise you for it. Matter of fact, they'll make you president. or put you in a position of leadership. Or that one guy, this guy doesn't need a lot, so put him in that job. You know, you get something. That's why you do it. But is it really what you want? Maybe not. I mean, maybe if you feel it over and over, you say, you know, I really don't want it. I don't want it anymore. But it's not that you don't want it and then you stop it. It's just you don't want it and you don't want it. You don't have to stop yourself from

[65:39]

And when you're not afraid of loving, you're not afraid of what will happen to you if you love people. Again, part of it is, also one of the ways you can get yourself off in love is you think, what will happen to me if I love? If I love, will I be able to love again? that I'll be able to follow through. If I love you today, that I'll be able to love you tomorrow. If I didn't want to love you today and disappoint you, if I didn't want to love you today and disappoint you, I stopped tomorrow so I didn't follow through. When I think about tomorrow and I don't love you today because I'm afraid I won't be able to tomorrow. You go over there enough times and you realize what it does to you and you stop doing it. And you start loving people in the present and getting in trouble, because you don't want to love them again tomorrow, otherwise it's going to be a problem. So then you're stuck. It's the only far-fetched thing to do.

[66:53]

It's to take a risk. Risk yourself in love. There is a risk. It could be trouble. But that trouble is just going to make your love grow. You afraid of that? Here she comes, Natalie Rose, sometimes known as Nat. I have a question. Do you feel not loved because of a bleeding heart? In a particular case? I'm not well versed in that.

[68:10]

About one time? He would like me to let my wife attend to the local scripture. I love Debbie's picture.

[69:13]

And, um... And Michael's picture. Yeah. And, and... At the same time, so during last night, it seemed like earlier, you were saying, um, the things you believe are really true and that are sort of right for you, that don't fall away. And so I was thinking in my conversation with Peter, You know, I'm Christian. But then, what we try to try to deal with, I actually am not so willing to put all the time and experience it. So it wouldn't be real for me to say, okay, I'll live that life. Maybe it's too big a thought. Maybe, first of all, what are you? Are you a Buddhist? I'm not really anything. Okay, but give up not doing anything. But that doesn't mean when you give up not doing anything, You've got to flip over the question. Then you've got to be a bullet. Well, what I would say to Peter is that I really don't have the... [...]

[70:35]

Could you talk about that? I would love to. Talk about that. And, um... But he doesn't. No, he doesn't. He says, but I'm just very wrong. But if I keep pestering you to, I think, change, you know, in some way, like block my truck away, then, um, isn't that your wake-up call? Because I'm listening to you. It keeps me being a wake-up call. And so this gets very confusing, and I might consider that. And then when I told him that I rely on my students to inform me and my students. Well, what I would suggest to start with then, look, if you want to convert somebody, and if you want to convert me, there's inversion instructions for you. You start not by telling me that you want me to be different, because that kind of implies You may want me to be different, but you really need to respect me the way I am now.

[71:55]

Otherwise, if you don't, you're not very intelligent. How many intelligent people think I'm great? That's an intelligent person. So, first of all, you have to impress me that you respect me enough version but you're not acting like that you're skipping over to where you want me to be and not emphasizing enough that you're visiting me so it's like visiting somebody in the hospital you want them to get well maybe they agree they're sick maybe you have some idea of what health would look like but first of all you visit in a hospital and if they never get better you keep visiting them in the hospital because you think they're great and you love them And you don't stop visiting them when they don't get well. Say, okay, I visited you six times, you're still sick, I'm not coming anymore.

[72:59]

This is really frustrating to me. You know? No, I love you in your sickness, and I'll love you in your health, and I want you to get healthy, but if you never get healthy, I'll keep loving you. And the most important thing is not that you get healthy, but The most important thing is that your brother loves you the way you are today. Not that he'll love you when you're converted. And if he does love you today, that's all that matters to you, vis-a-vis your brother, right? And if he loves you, you can tell him, and if you love me, if that's settled, that's the basic thing between you and me. If you love me, then, you know, probably it'll be easier for me to listen to what you're talking about because I'll realize that you're sane. But if you don't love me, you're making me feel like what you're talking about is coming from a madman.

[74:01]

So, you know, let's do that thing first. Let's do the love first, which is, I believe, if I'm not mistaken, if it is Jesus' message. You know? Love people today. not after they're converted. If he loves you and he can still pester you why he loves you, that won't be such a big deal to you, and it'll be easier for you to listen to him. So give him that advice, and if he can get it, fine. And if he can't, then that's the problem. The problem is he's not treating you with enough love and respect. Also, one recurrent question of his is, what is undergirding my life or my faith or something like that? Because he has scripture to say, I'm undergirded with this.

[75:01]

And I just don't know how to answer your question. Well, you can ask me what I'm undergirded by. And I have no undergirding. I don't have an undergirding. I don't have a fundamental thing to rely on. I'm just a momentary... I'm just a latent work of art of the universe over here. And so are you. We're just constantly the beauty of the universe unfolding in a particular place. There's no fundamental... I told him that it's my own experience. It's not me. I don't have anything that's going to hurt him. And he said, that's the most terrifying thing I've ever heard. Right. So that's very being honest with you. And that's what we were talking about before. Because he thinks he's an inherently different person like the rest of us,

[76:04]

He's terrified of not having... The other side is that he totally doesn't exist. So not having something to rely on looks like total non-existence of him. And you are open when you tell him that to express his anxiety. But he, in my opinion, he's like all Buddhists too. All people who come to Buddhism come with this belief in themselves, a belief in some inherently existing thing. And then to hear about this, that things lack inherent existence, which is actually ultimate truth and liberation, it sounds like absolutely nothing. It sounds like total annihilation. It's not. It only sounds like that to people who think that there really is something. So his reaction is really a reaction of a normal human being. That's really great that he said that. Yeah.

[77:15]

We got the feedback. Any other people that haven't spoken that would like to? Yes. Yeah, it's spreading. It's spreading. It does spread. Yeah, it's spreading and spreading. You can come closer. No, you can bring some people with you if you want to. I wanted to be back more like with Sigrid and Leon and Betty. I didn't want to be somewhere far behind me. I'd like to turn toward you a little bit like you're doing now.

[78:24]

So ancient Zen practice was done in groups like this. And this could also be called group psychotherapy.

[78:58]

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