Well, before I forget, I'd like to stop. I'd like to leave at 5 o'clock today instead of 6, if that's all right with you. Those of you who are at time could stay until 6. There's a period of meditation from 5.15 to 6 that you can contribute like. We have opportunity now to spend the day quietly speaking. And with the basic question in mind today, with your throat, your mouth and lips shut, how will you speak? This is a chart of Zen teachers starting with Bodhidharma.

[01:26]

These are mostly Most of these people are Chinese Zen teachers, Chinese Zen students. Japanese names. And Japanese lineages come down from here. In one sense, you could say Zen gives koans. Koan means public case or public example. Public example of They're public in the sense that you can hear about it now. It's written down in books and so on.

[02:28]

Some of these cases were originally fairly private. Like in our story today, there's a teacher together with three of his students. There may not have been anybody else around. Or there could have been hundreds of people watching this interaction between the four of them. So sometimes there's a large group of people present at the original story, and sometimes just one or two people there. There's threads about the interaction. And so it becomes a public story or a public case, a public example of awakening, a public example of enlightenment. Now, not everybody in enlightenment appreciates the enlightenment. From the early days of Buddhism, the Buddha in India, Shakyamuni Buddha, was an awakened and not everybody he met understood.

[03:46]

He was successful in teaching a lot of people, but not everybody understood. Some people resisted. even though they met the Great Buddha, they still resisted, resisted what was happening. And then, from then on, in the history of the Buddhist practice. There have been many stories of people resisting what's happening. Some of us resist what's happening. And in a nutshell, that's kind of what life's about.

[04:55]

Resisting what's happening or not resisting. And these stories are usually about people. At least one person is usually in these Zen stories. And usually at least one person in these stories is someone who's not resisting what's happening anymore. And not resisting what's happening is called being a Buddha, or called being awake. hearing those words, even though I said them, I think, okay, can I, can I be present here and not resist what's happening?

[06:10]

And it feels good me saying so. I think that might be a good, um, suggestion for the day and maybe for your whole life of just considering in what way you're resisting what's happening by moment. Are you protecting yourself from what's happening? Are you indulging in what's happening? Or are you indulging in what's happening? You can resist what's happening by being too much in favor of it, by liking it too much, by wallowing in it. Or you can resist by being kind of shrinking back and holding part of your body away from what's happening, holding part of your mind away from what's happening. So today I was thinking we would do discussion in sitting, but both while we're discussing and while we're quietly sitting, and also walking back and forth between walking, between sitting and discussing.

[07:34]

Please consider whether you really like giving your body and mind, your body and mind. That is the kind of environment, or that's the medium in which these stories happen, and it's the medium in which you understand these stories. Now we could just practice trying to find the balance or the non-resisting way of being present with us if we talked about these stories. We could just be together that way today. We wouldn't have to study these stories. I think that would be a worthwhile day. Even though we're going to talk about these stories, we could change now.

[08:42]

In a sense, I'd like to, in some sense, put the story... let go of the stories, let go of Zen stories, and just work on the kind of presence from which the stories arose. And each of us, that's what I ask of each of us, Any questions about what I've said so far? What kind of presence did these stories arise from? A presence which is not resisting what's happening. These stories also resulted from a presence which was resisting what's happening.

[09:58]

So, in some stories you have one person who's not resisting what's happening together with another person who is, and then sometimes the person who is resisting stops resisting and wakes up. Sometimes they will not stop resisting, and sometimes the person who isn't resisting, out of their non-resisting way of being, says, too bad. Too bad you won't let go of your resistance to life. As I said in the early story, the Buddha is talking to someone and the person will not let go of their entrenched habitual resistances to their life. Even the great Buddha cannot get the person to let go. fairly energetically, but the person won't come along with the program.

[11:05]

So sometimes even a wonderful teacher like Shakyamuni Buddha cannot get a person to be completely present. But anyway, each of us can try our best to be present moment by moment with the experience of being alive. and experience of being alive, as you know, is sometimes very dynamic and painful. So to be present with that is not easy. But in order to set us free from that, from our You have to be free of that. So that's kind of the basic meditation, basic kind of, you might say, samadhi of the day, today's samadhi.

[12:16]

Okay? Any other questions about that? Does everybody know what the word samadhi means? Samadhi means to be one-pointed mentally and emotionally and physically, one-pointed. So I'm suggesting to be one-pointed on what? What? Not quite. Be one-pointed on what's happening. and then notice if you are resisting what's happening. Don't try to stop yourself from resisting, don't resist. Just try to be completely with what's happening and then notice if you're leaning away from that in any way. And if you are, as soon as you notice that, your essence comes back. present with what's happening again.

[13:18]

And that's part of what's happening. So don't resist resisting when you're resisting. And don't resist not resisting when you're not. Okay? Always be with what's happening. If you're a bad Zen monk, be a bad Zen monk. Then you'll wake up from it. If you're a good Zen monk, be a good Zen monk. You wake up from that. Yes? Yes? I'm over here trying to imagine what's going to happen if we all just deal with what's happening. Do I know what you mean? Yeah, you know my question. So that's what's happening with you now. That's what's happening with you. So now you'd be wondering what's going to happen. Would you say that's resistance or not resistance? I would say it's just a thought which probably makes you feel a little afraid, I would guess. What would happen to be in a room full of people like that?

[14:24]

So that's a thought that's happening over there, and now you've voiced it, so we hear it now, so some of us might be thinking of it too. And so we're just with that thought, which I've almost forgotten. You still got it? I'm not resisting you remembering, but I pretty much forgot. So you take care of that pen as long as you need to. If anybody wants to know what Beverly was thinking of, she can probably tell you. You could write it down. Is that better? Yes. So I was thinking when I notice I'm resisting, for example, I'll feel really squirmy. Squirmy? Yeah, I want to move around a lot. And I always feel like if you're doing zazen, of course you want to stay still. So then I'm just sort of thinking about that, like exactly what do I stay with?

[15:29]

You know what I mean? I'm not resisting maybe... What do you stay with? Don't stay with anything. but be one-pointed on what's happening. And so, like, here you have a body, you know, maybe it's breathing, and you're being one-pointed with that body as it happens, not necessarily the idea of the body, but just as it's happening. Maybe even something surprising, a body that you weren't expecting might manifest. So you're with that. Then you notice that you're having trouble just being with it. In other words, you notice you're squirming. So then you're just not resisting the fact that you're squirming there. Can I, can I move? I mean, you know, like, I mean, I could see moving with, with, um, only with awareness, but like, if I were really doing what I'm, like I wanted to do, I would be just like, you know, really moving a lot, you know what I mean? Yeah. And so that's, so would it, I mean, and I usually just sort of say, well, you know, you have this desire to move, but you know, just stay still and just use your way in, in the, um,

[16:42]

In the meditation hall, we actually say, we kind of say, let's all agree to not move at every impulse in our room. Let's do that little ceremony of staying at our seat and not wandering around the room or changing seats and stuff. That's the agreement. But outside the room, we don't necessarily make that agreement. In your daily life, you don't necessarily make the agreement not to move every time you feel like moving. Is that right? You might, but you don't necessarily. I'm saying that Whether, you know, if you're in a situation where you make an agreement to not move and then you start having trouble following along with that agreement because you feel strong impulses, that the actual meditation practice is not your agreement to not move in that room.

[17:49]

The meditation practice is to be with what's happening, meaning that you're in a room where you've made an agreement not to move and you're feeling impulses to move. to feel no duality about what's actually happening. But just, I'm a woman who's agreed to not move, and I feel the impulse is to move, that's what's happening, that's what's happening. That sense of not preferring what's happening, or disparaging what's happening, but just to be present with it. And when you're outside of the room, you say, okay, now I'm a woman who has not made an agreement to not move, and I don't feel any impulse to move. So now I'm just with that. Now I do feel an impulse to move again, and I'm with that.

[18:50]

Now I am moving, and I'm with that. So you just... whatever is happening, that practice is a practice which pervades everything in life. But sometimes, some people who do that kind of practice wind up in social situations like meditation halls where they make agreements, and that's what's happening, that you're in a formal meditation, some commitment or some agreements, and then you have to deal with that. You have to deal with it. That's happening. and that there is or is not someone else in the room that's also made that agreement. And so it will be different. It'll be a different happening if you're in a room that has two or fifty people in it than if it's not. If the room has like fifty Zen masters in it, that'll be a different room than a room that has none.

[19:51]

And to deal with what's happening in that case, we'll be dealing with different feelings. different feelings, different evaluations, different impulses. Like some people might say, oh, I'd love to be in a room packed full of Zen masters. Some other people might say, I don't want to be in a room like that. I want to be in a room full of beginning. It would be uncomfortable being in such a room. But wanting to be or not wanting to be is something else is happening that you'd just be with. So just being with what's happening is you have no attachments. Resistance is similar to no attachments. Just being with what's happening, you have no aversion. So no aversion or attachment is another way to put no resistance. Now if aversion or attachment is happening,

[20:56]

The meditation is to not have any aversion or attachment. Does this make sense? It's quite a balancing act, but that's what I'm suggesting, that you work on a balanced today. Otherwise, these stories will not... will not... will not flower the way they could. Will not bloom. Will not bloom as they might be able to. Okay? Gordon? Yeah. And Trudy spoke a lot about, as part of his practice of morality, supposing one is being present with what one is doing, and what one is doing is considering sleeping with a friend's wife.

[22:13]

Being present, you're aware of that. Being aware of the morality of one's things with one's friend and one's society and one's everything. That's another view. But supposing one goes with that view and feels, I want to sleep with my neighbor's wife, my neighbor's wife wants to sleep with me, therefore I will sleep with her. That being present was doing that. Is that enough? I understand the example, but I can maybe tell the story a little differently. Sure. The kind of presence I'm talking about embraces and sustains the precepts, embraces and sustains right action. Right action is not to be involved, for example, in sexual activity which might harm someone in any way. This kind of presence includes and is inseparable from right action.

[23:17]

If you're present this way, It can happen that a thought or an impulse could arise and you could see some woman or some man and think some kind of sexual fantasy might arise in your mind. It's possible. For a person who's present, practically anything could happen. It could happen that I could be present with you and you could have a thought of some sexual fantasy And what could happen was that I would be aware of your fantasy. Or I might feel it somehow. Or sense by the way your body is that you have some sexual fantasy. And I might be right. Or I might have a sexual fantasy. Such things can happen in the world, right? If I'm present with that, do not

[24:21]

try to avoid that sexual fantasy or desire that sexual fantasy, I will not act on that sexual fantasy unless that action would be beneficial and promote the presence. I won't do that. I will not violate these precepts. So, the precepts are the way to get into this kind of presence. Thank you. You're welcome. And this kind of presence has a meaning of these precepts. And these precepts show that this kind of presence can give rise to and is in accord with certain types of behavior. So part of what these... is that there's this presence. And the Zen teacher, suddenly, he's with his students and he starts talking.

[25:27]

Words come out of his mouth. And these words are words which are not intending to hurt. They're words which are trying to help. But there's no preference in these words. There's no greed or aversion in these words. He's not trying to change the situation. He's just with the situation, and from just being with the situation, he says, with your throat, mouth, and tongue shut, how will you speak? That kind of speech comes from someone who is free of all the words that are flying through his head. He's balanced in the middle of all his words, and being balanced in the middle of all his words, he talks to his friends. And then watch us to see how will they respond to me coming from this place.

[26:30]

Okay, now, did you... Julianne? Julianne? I'm going to just wait and see if I can figure it out while you keep talking. You had one before, though? It was, anyway, some sort of trying to come to understanding with it. Asked a question, you might be able to get closer to that. But the words for questions weren't coming. So maybe a questionable thought. So you thought maybe just put your hand up, something helpful might happen? That's true. That's what it is. It's like... Linda? My question is, what does... What does... You mean by speaking?

[27:34]

Does he mean words? What does he mean by speaking? Before we get into the story, although I just got into it, Okay? Let me just say a little bit about the background of this story. Okay? And please remember her question. What does he mean by speaking? I don't think we'll forget that. Okay? Now, this is a chart of these people, and on this chart, one of the greatest of all the teachers was this man named... who's the teacher in this story. Okay? Right here, this guy, Baijong Waihai. Baijong Waihai. One of the great, one of the great, great Zen teachers. I lost him. Oh, here it is.

[28:51]

I pointed the wrong person. By John Waihai. And he got the dates wrong. Got his dates wrong. Uh-oh. This doesn't give him enough years of life. Anyway, here he is. And he had a bunch of money. One of his great students is Huishan. Guishan Lingyu, he's an historic. And another one of his great students is Wu Feng. Wu Feng Changguan. So these are two of his main disciples are right there on the chart and in the story. The third disciple who's in this story is named Yun Yan. And Yun Yan came to Baijiang when he was pretty young. I guess maybe, I think 14 when he came.

[29:52]

And he stayed until he was 34. So sometimes these Zen teachers would take a young man as their attendant. In this case he did, took a young man as his attendant. So from 14 to 34, Yun Yan was with... But Yunyan is not on the chart as a disciple of Bajang because Bajang died before Yunyan resisted. But Yunyan was a great, a really great Zen student. Obviously, for one of the great masters to keep him around for 20 years close at hand, he had a lot of potential, but he was very slow. Anyway, not some of us. But anyway, 20 years he studied closely with one of the great masters and couldn't wake up. But then after Baijian died, he went and studied with Yaoshan.

[30:54]

So over here under Yaoshan, you see Yunyan's name, his successor, and woke up. And actually he woke up telling Yaoshan about Baijian's teachings. Yao Shan, Master Yao Shan, asked Yun Yan about Bai Zhang's teaching because he had never met Bai Zhang from somebody who spent a lot of time with him. So he asked him lots of questions. Well, tell me about Bai Zhang's teaching. So Yun Yan would tell him this and tell him that. Finally, Bai Zhang said, Why didn't you tell me this before? Today, through you, I understand Master Bai Zhang. And at that moment, Yun Yan woke up. When he, the teacher, his teacher was kind of channeled through him to another teacher, and at that moment he woke up to his teacher's meaning. And so then he became the master, Yun Yan became the teacher of, you know, the great Dung Shan, who's the founder of our school in China.

[31:59]

So, in this story, we know that the first two, all three of these people in this story, all four of these people, I'm sorry, the great Zen teachers, But two of them are already masters in the story, and one of them we know hasn't quite woken up yet. As we know from history, they didn't wake up before Bajong died, and Bajong's not dead yet in this story. So we know that this is one interaction broken up into three stories. This doesn't usually happen. Usually they would combine this into one story. But this story, since he asked the same question three times and got three different answers, they made it into three separate stories. Really, they all happened on the same day, I think. Probably. But not necessarily. It might have happened on different days. But I don't think so. But in terms of, if you look at the response, they happened one after another.

[33:02]

Okay. So now... Now let's look at the story. But again, now that we're looking at the story, I once again refer you to what I said at the beginning. In some sense, we don't need to talk about this story. So I'm talking about this story, but not because we need to talk about this story, but in some sense to see if we can talk about this story, even though we're talking about this story, you don't get distracted by the story. The main thing is that you practice being present today. If you don't practice being present today, it's a waste of time to talk about the story. If you do practice present today, Bringing up the story in some ways is a way to make your day more difficult. It might be easier for you to be quiet and present with what's happening if we don't discuss the story.

[34:10]

That's your only assignment. Okay? Make sense? You still might try to understand what's happening to you. moment by moment. But if the story comes up, your mind may tend to resist what's happening and try to understand what's happening. To try to understand what's happening is resisting what's happening. To seek, to get a hold of what's happening is to resist it. So in some sense, this story is tempting you to see if you can hear this story without leaning forward to try to get it. And Linda's asking me now, what what does he mean by speak, right? So we're going to talk about that now. But see if you can not try to get answers. And I tell you now what that means. And also, I will invite other people to say even better responses than mine about what it means to not speak.

[35:15]

And see if you can watch See if you can stay present and not try to get the answer. Or, if you hear some really bad answers, see if you can not try to avoid or be repulsed by them. Some people in here have a tendency to get bad answers. Okay, so now what does he mean by speak? One way to understand what he means by speak is to speak. That's actually one way to understand what he means, is actually to speak. You might say, what kind of speech is it to speak with your mouth shut?

[36:19]

Because that's not the usual way we speak, right? So the way I would understand that is that to speak without using words, which is also unusual, right? So what does that mean? It means that you speak words without using words. It means you speak, the words come out of your mouth, but you don't grab words and take them and put them out. The words come from your presence, rather than by opening and shutting your mouth, by you opening and shutting your mouth, by you thinking of a word, taking the word, opening and shutting your mouth, and moving air through there, and then having your tongues and lips help it out. In other words, speak that way. Speak without using words, without relying on words.

[37:22]

I think that's what it means. Now, any other ideas about what kind of speech that might be? Yes? Just to communicate by other means. It could mean to communicate by other means. That's a possibility. With a look. Huh? With a look. Could mean with a look. However, I would say that if you did speak with a look, with a body, or by writing... You could write a letter, right? That wouldn't use your lips. But I don't think that would count. If you reached for the pen and reached for the worries and separated and resisted what's happening, one of the main ways we resist what's happening is to say that there's what's happening plus me. That's one of our main resistances. There's Saturday, May 31st, 1997, and there's me.

[38:31]

That's a resistance. It's a main kind of resistance. Is anybody familiar with that? Huh? You're not? I don't understand, actually. Well, like there's this day, right? Like today, and then isn't there something, isn't there Daniel 2? And aren't you concerned about that? Don't you want to make sure we don't lose that part of the day? Mostly I want to make sure that it works out for me. Yeah, that's the day plus me. You're not just like, hey, the day is good enough. We don't have to worry about Daniel, too. A lot of us are that way, actually. Except that the day is good enough for me, plus I want to make sure I'm okay, but Daniel's not the problem for me. But you're concerned that it works out for Daniel. Right. You're concerned that Daniel exists today. That he survives today.

[39:38]

In an existing form. Okay. Right? That he exists at the end of the day in fairly good shape. Yeah, that's a pretty good way to put it. It's a little seductive when you say it. I feel like, oh yeah, I get this separation of being suspicious when I hear myself thinking that I understand what you're saying. So I try to sort of see if there's another way to understand it sometimes. It sounds too easy to myself. Pardon? It sounds what? Like when you talk about us being, separating myself from the world, like Daniel. So my instant reaction is like, oh, yeah, right, I get that. I've heard that before where it says things like that. I understand that. But I'm not always sure if it's that easy, but I really do understand it. Oh, I appreciate you asking. So sometimes I ask again to see what you'll say, basically. Yeah. But still, I want to ask each of you, this is part of, still in the context of being present, this is an example of being present or not resisting the fact that you're resisting.

[40:55]

So, Catherine was talking about wiggling. One of the ways we wiggle is just to make sure we're still here. You know? Like, there's the day, we're in the zendo, but, you know, well, what about me? There's the zendo, and what about me? Well, just wiggle a little bit. Yeah, see, I'm still here. See, I can still wiggle. Huh? Yeah. Yeah. But anyway, I'm still here. Look, see? The other guys are just sitting there, but, you know, I don't know how they're continuing to live. I'm going to make sure I'm still here, you know? This is like, hey, I'm, this is... Oh, what it is, it's like, am I going to get something out of it? That's the way it goes. Oh, yeah, that's the other one, yeah. Yeah, that's quite right. Like the day, here's the day. And is it enough just to have a day? Well, for a lot of us, no. How long to, like, get something out of this day? Right. Okay. Yes, I don't want to waste a day, yeah. Right. But surprisingly, perhaps, I see it. that to spend another day trying to get something out of the day is a waste another day.

[42:09]

To spend this day or even part of today even a few minutes of today of seeing what it's like not to try to exploit the moment but just be awestruck by the moment. Not even able to even remember to get something out of it for yourself And that's what Beverly was worrying about. What would it be like if we all did that? What kind of a day would that be? But just dare to live a moment or two, not trying to get anything out of the moment. That would be some moments that weren't wasted. I guess I'm wasting most of these moments. Yeah, well, that's fine to just admit that, okay? And then when you feel that you're wasting it, when you feel, oh, I do want to get something, then you've identified resistance. Yes. So the way we're going to, most of us, the way we're going to learn how to be free of resistance is by identifying. So I just gave you another example of it, just to help you.

[43:12]

I'm trying to give you more examples of ways that you fall off of just being present. That the day isn't enough. Most of us want the day plus us, which means I want that something for me today too. Yeah. Yeah. That's resistance, which we may have. Now back to, what's your name again? Dale. Back to Dale's question, what about, or comment, what about just like not saying anything? But again, if you don't say anything, and you think that's what it means to not speak, that's fine, and you're not speaking, Were you free of words at that time? Or was there, okay, now there's me plus not speaking.

[44:13]

There's me plus this gesture of looking or going like this. If so, your mouth isn't shut. Your lips are not shut. You're still, you are still talking. because you're acting like this, in terms of, I do this. That's not what he's talking about, I don't think. That his speech... Please, teacher, you speak instead, that this speech comes from a person. reaching for words and who's not trying to get something out of the day. So here you are with a great Zen master and he says, okay, with your mouth, lips, throat shut, please, how will you talk?

[45:16]

Now here's your big chant, right? This is a big... You've got an interview with this great teacher and he's asking you personally a question. You get a chance to talk to him. You get a chance to make your name in history. You're going to be a, you know, part of the history of Zen Buddhism now. If you just come up with anything decent here. And maybe you'll be totally liberated as you speak. Or if you raise your hand, maybe that'll be an opportunity for complete liberation. Here's your big chance. But if you care about that, if you care the slightest bit about you getting liberated, your mouth is not shut. Okay? So how can you respond to the question, an important question, an important moment, like now, without trying to get anything for yourself? Or another positive way is, how can you appreciate that you don't have to try to get anything from it?

[46:24]

And from that space, see if some words come. That's what I think he means. And that's the kind of talk he wants. He wants that does not use words. He wants talks that come from a person who's free of normal human sentiment, which is trying to get something every moment out of our life. It's so sad. And just to feel that sadness to be a sad person who's trying to get something out of this poor little moment and just let it go at that then from that sad person there may be some message like please teacher instead Maybe that's what you'd say. But maybe not. That's what Guishan said.

[47:26]

He already took that one. Now, to repeat that is going to be unlikely that this could be yours. But in a sense, you know, imagine do a little experiment. Just imagine that you met this wonderful teacher who says this to you. Speak to me free of grasping for words or any gain. Speak to me in that way. Free of all your human trips. And then what would you say? What words would come from you? And maybe none come for a long time. It looks like this happened pretty fast. But there were no lunch breaks between the question and the response. What question... Can you get to the place where Guishan answered the question? And for you or me to get to answer the question is, can you enter Buddha's mind?

[48:44]

And how do you enter Buddha's mind? I've given you some suggestions. And I'm looking at Catherine right now, and now she's looking at me. But before that, she was looking off to the left. I don't know what she was doing really, but I felt like she was trying to figure out what was going on. What were you doing when you were looking off to the left, what kind of thing? I was just sort of trying to contact something in my body, like what was going on, that's all. Yeah, something like, I mean, it's hard to describe, but the way it was going. So sometimes as you look off to the left with your eyeball, can you turn your eyeballs off to the left, that help you tune into your body?

[49:51]

Probably not, but I just, that's what I think I was doing. That's what you should be doing. And so what I'm suggesting is without using your eyeballs, without using your eyeballs or not, without using any contrivance, check into your own hotel. Without any reservation to resistance, check into where you are, how you are. And again, notice how we... tend to think we need some way to check into being here. In a way, I mean, I feel like I try to use, I mean, I try to experience the breath or whatever as a way, so I don't go so much into my mind.

[51:19]

I was thinking, what I hear you saying is non-duality, and I don't even know, you know. I'm sorry I said the word non-duality. Did you say, I don't even know, but that's what I heard. I mean, I'm not sure if you said that, but I said it twice. And so that seems, you know, how do I have a Buddha mind like that? And so I just go back, try to go back to something like my breath or something like that as a way to not try to think about this thing that's unthinkable or whatever. So that's... So you don't have to think about something that's unthinkable? Yeah, right. Because it's like, I mean, I was starting to go, how would I think if I was not thinking in duality? And that's, I can't think about that. Right, you can't think that, right. You can't think how you'd think if you weren't thinking.

[52:19]

Right. But it did occur to me. Right, but you have to try somehow. Eventually you have to do this thing called thinking of not thinking. Just continuing to think won't be enough unless you think non-dualistically. But thinking non-dualistically means that you think without trying to get anything out of your thinking. So if you think of directing your attention to your breath, you have that thought, I think I'll direct my attention to my breath, that thought. And if you have that thought, without trying to get anything out of that thought, like, for example, to exploit that thought to get you to meditate on your breath so that you'll feel better, which is what that thought might be doing.

[53:26]

Yeah, I think that's it. Like, I'm feeling nervous, now I think I let the Think about, rise to a thought now which will make me feel more comfortable. For example, go back to my breath. I usually feel comfortable when I'm meditating. I think it's fine to meditate on your breath and feel comfortable with your breath. But when you have a thought of how to direct your mind towards a state where you're more comfortable, that thought itself looks a little defiled. Because it's trying to uncomfortable state you're in. I don't say get rid of that thought that's trying to get you out of this uncomfortable state and get you to a more comfortable state. I'm saying just let that thought, which is trying to promote yourself from feeling frustrated about trying to think of something inconceivable and non-dual and making you feel nervous,

[54:27]

So you switch to another thought, which you think you have a better chance of feeling comfortable with, called, why don't you go think of your breath? Okay? That's okay. The interesting thing is that when you have that thought, you just let that thought be that, even though the thought looks like it's trying to gain something. But can you have the thought that way? Because it's the thoughts right there. Now when that thought goes away, and then now you're looking at your breath, can you then look at your breath without something like, well now here I am back looking at my breath, and pretty soon I'm going to be calm, but it hasn't happened yet, so come on, when is the calm going to start kicking in here? Rather than now, so now I'm looking at my breath, here we are in breath land. Oh well, that's fine. I still feel nervous, though, some residual nervousness from when I was trying to think non-dualistically.

[55:31]

Trying to think non-dualistically is, in some sense, is more upsetting than just trying to think of your breath. Because although you're trying to get calm, you don't feel that greed, because I'm just trying to be a little bit calm, that isn't so bad, it's not too much, but think non-delusively, I'm not just trying to be calm, I'm trying to be like liberated entirely, Buddha, this is too much, you know, I'm really, this is like on the verge of insanity, me to try to think myself into Buddha. So, probably I'll just go back and just be a little simple, a little meditator, you know. Don't have such big expectations. But I would like anyway to calm down. Even though that guy was just talking about, how about just having today? How about have today? And forget about whether you're calm today. How about that? Well, isn't that actually a little bit difficult? Just to be a nervous person today? Nervous person on Saturday morning? It's hard. If she is a perfectly nice person, she's not happy just to be a nervous person.

[56:35]

You're thinking of non-duality. She wants to be calm. So I'm not telling you, please try to think non-dually, non-dualistically today. I mean, I actually am suggesting that you do that. But I'm not suggesting that you do that. I'm not suggesting you try to think non-dualistically. I'm suggesting that you consider what it's like to be just you today and let it go at that. That would be thinking non-dualistically. For you to be you would be... that's non-dual. That's not trying to get anything. And isn't that hard? And Catherine has kindly offered us her example of how hard, that she was having a hard time just being this person. Because when I talked about, I unfortunately said the word non-dual.

[57:37]

But you know, you've got, there are... Say stuff like that, especially if you come around to Zen Center, somebody might say, non-dual, and you say, non-dual. Now, I've heard that that kind of like is the kind of thinking you have just before or at the same time, becoming enlightened. So that's a hot one, that non-dual thing. Dualistic is painful, but at least he knows. Low profile. So it's not so frightening. When we hear the word non-dual, we have a dualistic reaction to it. Like, non-dual, that's something other than what I'm doing? Or is it other? Is it other is a dualistic thought. So usually when we hear the word non-dual, or non-dualistically, we have a dualistic reaction. The dualistic mind grabs it dualistically. And we feel nervous. But it's good that we feel nervous because we're nervous all the time that when we hear the word non-dual, if you were Zen students anyway, it acted.

[58:41]

We get nervous. And you notice we're nervous. Now, here you are, Saturday morning, and you're noticing that you're nervous. In other words, you're noticing your life. And then you notice, I want a better life. I want to be calm. And I say, fine. Go ahead. But I'm in the room. So you're going to have a hard time being calm. Because I'm not going to let you be calm. for too long until you stop being confused. I'm not going to let you kid yourself into that you're calm just when I just become... But in fact, if I was shut up, you probably could kid yourself into thinking that you're calm. But if you're so calm, how come when I start talking about non-duality, you get nervous? It's because you're calm... is not dealing with... That's why.

[59:41]

You're receding, you're resisting, you're shrinking back from the full range of your grasping. Just like some people, they hang around with certain people and they say, hey, I'm not grasping this person. You bring somebody else to the room and they... Do you know what I mean? There's some people you don't feel much greed towards. And some people hang around people they feel no greed towards. They stay away from people who activate their greed. It isn't that the people activate their greed. It's that certain objects make you remember something that you really want. Or some other people activate your version. So they manage to get away from these objects. Which is fine. But that's not calm. Calm. That's what I call bomb shelter practice. Just go down the bomb shelter, and that's fine for a while, but it gets stuffy down there after a while. Nice thing about coming out of the bomb shelter is there's birds singing up here.

[60:56]

But if birds are allowed to talk, You may say, no, no, no, we're going to let the birds sing, but you've got to shut up. You say, what about if I speak without opening my mouth? With my mouth shut. And my lips together. Shut. Then can I talk? Is that okay then, if I talk to him? Now it turns out that the way I talk then will be even more upsetting than usual. Does that make sense? Because then I'll ask you to talk like that too. And then you'll notice that your mind is reaching to try to understand, how am I going to talk like that? So then you're going to want to go back to your breath. Rather than deal with the anxiety you feel when I ask you to do something that seems impossible, like to talk,

[61:59]

So I'm not saying, please be anxious. I'm saying, if you're anxious, please be anxious. Try to be what you are today. Or at least this morning. This afternoon, we can... What does it mean to have your throat shut? Same as to have your mouth shut. Just a little lower. Huh? Pardon? Just a little lower. Your throat's... Well, you're sitting in the usual way. Your throat's under your mouth. You don't usually think your throat's being shut? What? Well, I mean, it's not like... It's blocking your throat. Try to talk. That kind of thing. In other words, stopping all the different ways that you usually use to speak without using any of them to speak. That's what it means. Don't use your lips. Okay, now I can talk without my lips.

[63:06]

Anyway, eliminating all your usual means to speak. Give up all the ways you usually use to speak. And then he spoke that way. And he asked the teacher to talk. And then the teacher talked again. Now the teacher says, okay, he doesn't say, okay, I have my mouth shut. I have my lips together. And now I'm asking you. And yet they're speaking. Speaking is happening with my mouth shut. That's the way I'm talking right now. I'm not using any words to speak. And they're speaking going on. I am not using any words. I am not using my mouth. I am not using my lips. They're all shut. They're not being used. How can you do it? Let's see if you can talk like me. Let's see you talk like me without using... your lips or tongue or mouth or whatever.

[64:11]

Come on, do it. And the student says, please, teacher, do it again. Don't ask me to do it. Talk. You talk. That's the way you talk. And the teacher says, I don't refuse to talk. This is called apophatic, by the way. Apophatic way of talking. And it's characteristic of Zen is that you say, I'm not going to say anything today. Rhetorical devices that I'm not going to answer your question or please teacher you answer instead of me Please speak on my behalf. I can't say a word Now I'm not I'm not using any words. I'm not using my mouth. I'm not using my throat now How you can do the same and then you say to me please teacher? you speak instead and then I say I I don't refuse to to speak to you.

[65:12]

I don't refuse to speak to you. I don't refuse to speak to you. But if I did, in the future, I would be bereft of disciples. I would be bereft of successors. That's what he said. These are three expressions coming from people who are supposedly being successful at not using any words. that the story is about. Right? I mean, but tell me if something else is about, if you don't agree. What were you going to say, Liz? Pardon? It's not clear to me if the student is coming from that place. Well, is it clear that the teacher is? Well, likely, because he's the teacher. He's more likely that somebody... who could speak without using words would ask somebody else to speak without using words?

[66:15]

Well, what gives that it's likely that this guy is not just a hypocrite? Actually, but he didn't say, he didn't say, I can talk without opening my mouth. It was a blue jaguar. talk without using my mouth how will you be able to do it he didn't say that but i'm kind of implying that he was that's what he was doing but he didn't say in some ways teacher might say look you guys i i can't speak without using my mouth i use my mouth i'm reality would you please do it how would you do it i don't know how to do it tell me how you would do it Help me. I want to be able to do this. I want to speak non-dualistically. I want to speak without using words. How would you do it? And then the student tells him how.

[67:19]

By asking him to do it. This is getting very clear. Do you see? No? Yes? I see. Is that if the day... is there, is there. And the key word might be my, my love, my temple, my food. Perhaps the speaking isn't it. Yeah, that's the key thing. This isn't my day. These aren't my words. But that's what we're concerned about. We're concerned about this being my day. What's this day for me? And what are my words going to be, and what's my mouth, and how am I going to talk? So it's getting about... I'm wondering what Bhai Dham wants them to speak of.

[68:27]

You're wondering what Bhai Dham wants them to speak of? You're wondering? Do you have any comments about what he wants them to speak of? Well, I think, by John, he wants them to speak freedom, to speak free of speech, to speak free of words. We want to learn how to walk free of walk, ourselves free of ourselves. We want to know how to live today free of today. Free of trying to get something out of today. Right? We want to have a non-exploitative life because we already feel we aren't trying to get something out of life because we appreciate life as it is. That's all. Now, I wondered if you want to... Without going any further in the story, if you want to change the... to try, some of you try to say, try to respond to the question.

[69:53]

Are you ready to do that? I have to go to the bathroom. You have to go to the bathroom? Okay, anybody else want to go? Oh, it's quite a popular thing. Well, why don't we have a bathroom break? And we'll see if anybody comes back. How about five minutes? Another one of Bajang's main students was named Wang Bo. And when Wang met Baizhang, Baizhang told Wang Bo of a story about when he was working with his teacher, Master Ma, Ma Zi. So see, this person up here is the teacher of all these teachers.

[70:57]

And actually, this to 139. enlightened disciples. These are just the most famous of the 139. So, coming from Matsu is Baijong, the teacher in this story, and then from Baijong comes these people we have in this story, plus Wang Bo, that we've been studying in our koan class. So, when Wang Bo... was talking to Bai Zhang. Bai Zhang was telling Wang Bo about when he was studying with his teacher. And he said... So Wang Bo was going to leave Bai Zhang, and Bai Zhang said, Where are you going? And Wang Bo said,

[71:59]

to pay respects to Great Master Ma. In other words, I'm going to go pay respects to your teacher. I'm going to go on a pilgrimage to pay respects to your teacher. But my teacher's already passed away. And then Wang Bo said, well, what did he have to say when he was alive? And Bhajan said, When Master Ma saw me approach, he raised his whisk. Zen teachers carry fly whisks sometimes. He raised his whisk and he said, No, he raised his whisk and I said, Do you identify with this action or detach from this action? Bhajan said that to Matsu.

[73:03]

And Matsu then took the whisk and hung it from his seat, from his chair, his meditation chair. And there was a long silence. Then Master Ma said to me, later on, when you're flapping your lips, in other words, teaching, how will you help people And then Bhajan took the whisk off the chair and held it up. And Master Ma said, do you identify with this action or detach from this action? And then Bhajan took the whisk and hung it back up in the chair. Okay, following so far? I'm lost.

[74:04]

Who had the whisk? I'm not kidding. Did you say you're not kidding? Yeah. I believe you. I believe you. I believe you. Yeah, no problem. Does anybody have a whisk on them? No whisks? How about a scarf? A scarf would be... A scarf or a sweater. Thank you. That's good. So... So Baijian, the teacher in our story, is going to visit his teacher, Master Ma. Okay? So, he comes up to Master Ma, and Master Ma raises up his whisk. And Baijian says, maybe you could act this out, okay? I'll be Master Ma. Okay? And you can be Baijian. Okay. Okay? Okay. All right. So you come in, all right?

[75:05]

Is that good enough? You come in. You sit here. Okay. And then I go. And you sit. You say, do you identify with that action or detach from that action? Do you identify with that action or detach from that action? Hang it up. Okay? And then I... Later on, when you're flapping your lips, how will you help people? Okay? I say that to you. Everybody following this so far? Yeah. This is Pai John. I'm Mod Sub. Now what does he do? Take it up. Yeah.

[76:08]

Just hold it up. And then I say, do you identify with that action or detach from that action? Okay. Did you hear what she said? Did you hear what she said? She said she lost her hearing in a year. Bai Zhang lost his hearing for three days. And when Wang Bo heard that story, he went, Oh. And then... and then bai jiang said to wang bo bai jiang said to wang bo won't you succeed and become a vessel to my teacher and wang bo said although through your recitation of the actions of master ma

[77:19]

the great capacity of Master Ma. I dare not become his successor, otherwise I will lack in descendants. Okay? Well, that relates to this story. Okay? The issue is how to have descendants. Okay? You can stay here if you want. So, before this story, Bai Zhang has already had this talk. One of his own students told him this. He said, so now that you've seen my teacher and recognized the wonderful capacity of my teacher, won't you become a successor to my teacher? He said, if I do so, I will lose my descendants. He's saying, I ask you to speak, free of speech.

[78:27]

Then you say to me, won't you speak, teacher? And I say, I don't say, I don't refuse to speak. I'm just afraid if I do so, I will lose my descendants. Okay, yes? When Wong Bo said that, was Master Ma still alive? No. That's what I'm saying. He said, I'm going to go... Wang Bo said to Baijian, I'm going to go visit your teacher. Baijian said, my teacher's already dead. When he was alive, what did he say? How did he talk? So he told him how he talked. This is how he talked. This is also how Baijian talked. This is how we interacted. So he told him. Then he found out. So then the teacher said, now that you've heard, and you seem to be quite impressed... will you become a successor to my teacher? And he said, although from the story I see the teacher's great capacity, I fear that if I became his successor, I will lose my successors.

[79:38]

Okay? Yes? Isn't that as he may be not saying that he'd lose the integrity of his own being? Yeah. If he loses the integrity of his own being, he'll lose his own successors. And if he loses the integrity of his own being, then he'll help his disciples lose their own being. So he won't have any successors, even though he will have successors. He'll have successors in not having successors. He'll have successors in not having your own integrity. So, that's another way to approach this is to speak without using your mouth to lose your integrity. rather than speaking from your sense of you need to use your mouth to talk. We think, you know, that we need to be separate from today, otherwise what will happen to us? But your integrity is that you are today. That's your integrity. Your integrity is you don't have to get anything out of today.

[80:39]

You don't have to get anything from today. That's your integrity. But we think, oh no, you know, I've got to get something out of today, otherwise... It'll be, you know, one more day wasted where I got another day where I didn't get something. But actually, all the other days of your life, practically, you got something. How about today? Because today is a day to realize your integrity. You don't need anything. You're more than enough already. Yes? So, if you're a successor, then you don't have integrity? Is that what you're saying? If there's a successor, then that successor wouldn't have integrity? Pardon? Say it again? This is your integrity to talk like this that I don't understand. So, what I'm hearing is that they're saying that they wouldn't have a successor because there wouldn't be any integrity. If you don't have integrity, you're not going to have any successors.

[81:43]

I was hearing it the other way. Yeah, well, you got it backwards. Okay. Now, if you do have integrity, it doesn't mean you're going to have success, because maybe nobody else wants to have any integrity. Still, no matter how much integrity you have, like the Buddha, I said from the beginning, the Buddha had plenty of integrity, but some people don't want to have integrity. They want to be kind of like, I don't have integrity, there's the day and me. To think that you're separate from the day is not your integrity. Your integrity is separate from the day. The day is you. You are the day. You don't need to get anything from your life. That's your integrity. So if you have a successor, are you both integral? That's what you're saying, so the integrity is already there. Integrity is already there. But if the teacher... can't face his integrity, he's not going to have any successors. Now, some other person... If you're the teacher and you can't accept your integrity, you're trying to get something out of your students or whatever, the student could still become a person of integrity, but they wouldn't be your successor.

[82:56]

They would be a whole new thing, you know. They wouldn't... Your way would be a non-integrity way. But certainly if you don't have integrity, you can't have a successor. If you do, you might be able to. Kevin? Kevin? Obviously, he was wrong because the teacher's teacher did have a disciple. Obviously. Obviously, who is wrong? Why is he wrong? The original teacher was who, again? Matsu. Matsu. He had integrity. He had integrity, but he also had disciples. He did have it. No, you can't have disciples if you have integrity. You can't. Yes. Then why? You can't have disciples if you don't have integrity. Then why is the student afraid, saying, if I behave that way with integrity, I won't have to suck? No, it's not that he behaves... It's that if he becomes... If he becomes... If he says, okay, now I will become a successor.

[83:58]

Yeah. Now, hearing this one... Don't you want to become a successor to this teacher? Won't you become a successor now? If I do, okay, then I will lose my integrity. And then I won't... And then I'll lose my... If I depend on the teacher... then I'll lose my integrity and I won't have disciples. And that's good, isn't it? He relied on the teacher by saying, teacher, you speak for me. He sounds like he did, but he didn't. He's tempting the teacher. He's saying, okay, you asked me to speak without using my words, so you speak it for me. The teacher says, I don't say I won't speak, but if I do, I'll lose my successor, namely you, and the rest of them, too. So Wang Bo is saying, here, you live my life for me, please. You want me to speak without using anything?

[84:59]

You live my life for me. Then I won't fall into that. Well, that's pretty good. But if I do that, then I'll lose my disciples. Let's see. I think who is next? I was confused about why he screamed at the person who sat down. You were confused why he did? No, I'm not confused why. I don't understand why. Did you understand why he raised the whisk? Yes. Well, the way I interpret it, or understood it, was he raised the whisk to show that he understood why Ma originally raised the whisk. Bai, is it? Bai Zhan? Bai Zhan did the same thing his teacher did. No, no, no. He referred to Ma to Wang Bo.

[86:02]

Right. So it's Bai Zhan and Ma Zi, okay? So Pai-chan goes and meets Matsu. Matsu raises his whisk. Do you understand why he raises his whisk? No. No, so you don't understand why he raises his whisk, do you? No. And you also don't understand why he shot it, do you? So there. What I was asking, maybe. Watch now. He raises his whisk. You don't know why he did that, do you? Hmm? I don't know why he did it either. Okay? Then his wonderful disciple says, do you identify with that? This is what I'm asking you. When you act, when you talk, do you identify with your speech? This isn't like your speech, or are you separate from your speech? Okay? Are you involved in either of those extremes? Do you identify with this action or detach from this action? That's what Baijong Okay, good question.

[87:03]

In other words, does this action come, do you raise this whisk without using your hands? Do you raise this whisk without even you doing it? Okay, that means identity. Mansukh puts the whisk down. Okay, good question. Now Mansukh says, okay, now, This is how I teach people. You come to see me, I raise the whisk, you ask me a question, I put the whisk down. That's how I teach people. Now, when you're flapping your lips, how will you help people? Okay? So, bhajan says, bhajan picks up the whisk and holds it up. Okay? Somebody's saying that you would do the same thing as this teacher. Well, sort of. It looks that way, doesn't it? And the teacher, because the teacher The same question that the student asked, right? The teacher says, now do you identify or detach from that action?

[88:06]

And Bhajan puts this thing down. So it looks like he's doing the same thing as the teacher, right? So then, Bhatsa yells. Three days can't hear. This is how he teaches. So you could say, well, does that mean that Bajang copied the teacher and the teacher didn't like that? Well, you could say that or whatever. But anyway, the point is that this is the action that we're looking at. And when Wang Bo heard that story, he went... And then, Bajang could see Wang Bo understood the story, in a way. So he said, now will you become a successor? And he says... I saw a lot there, and I'm grateful for it. If I become a successor to your teacher, I'll lose my successors. In other words, if I reach for something outside myself, I lose my integrity.

[89:11]

That's the same as today, for us to reach something for something outside today. Today, we lose our integrity. Our integrity is not independent of this day. We don't stand independent of this day and the nice weather. We're not independent of it. If it gets cloudy, we're not independent of the cloudiness. If it gets cold, we're not independent of it. But also if we reach for it, we reach for the day and try to get something out of it, then we... then we... we lose our integrity. We lose our integrity when we try to get something out of it. And that's a problem. Liz? That's a problem for these guys.

[90:16]

Maybe you don't care if you have any successors, but these people were very concerned. The problem, celibate monks have to, it's spiritual. Yes? Yes? Okay, you may have answered it, but let me just see. Anyway, so when this monk said to his teacher, you speak for me, could mean, since we're not separate from the day or separate from our lives, I mean, couldn't anybody speak for us and it wouldn't matter if he was speaking? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. So could you have meant that? Yes. Yes. You could? Yes. But it sounded like his teacher didn't... No. He said, in some ways, he could say he did. His teacher says, yeah, that's right, I could speak for you. That would be one way that you could speak. Get me to speak for you. Be a ventriloquist. You know, then you can... You know? I'm getting...

[91:13]

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