An unsurpassed, penetrating and perfect Dharma is rarely met with even in a hundred thousand million kalpas. Having it to see and listen to, to remember and accept, I vow to taste the truth of the Tathagata's words. Kacchayana Gota Sutta Thus I have heard. Let's read together. Thus I have heard. The Blessed One was once living in Savatthi in a monastery of Andanda Pindika in the Jeta's Grove. At that time, the Venerable Kacchayana, a clansman, saluted him, sat down to one side. So seated, he questioned the exalted one, Sir, people speak of right view, right view. To what extent is there right view? This world, Kacchayana, is generally inclined towards two views, existence and non-existence.

[01:06]

To him who receives this right wisdom the upright world has come to be. The notion of non-existence in the world does not occur. To him who perceives wisdom the ceasing of the world as it is come to be, the notion of existence does not occur. The world, most part , is bound by approach as being inclination. does not follow the approach that determination of mind, that inclination and disposition, who does not cling to or adhere to a view, this is my Self, who thinks suffering is a sufferance to arising arises, suffering that is subject to ceasing ceases. Such a person will not doubt, is not perplexed.

[02:08]

Herein his knowledge is not without pendant. Thus, Kacchayana, there is right view. Everything exists. This Kacchayana is one extreme. Everything does not exist. This kacchayana is a second extreme. Kacchayana, without approaching either extreme, the Tathagata teaches you a doctrine of the middle. Dependent on ignorance, using disposition, depending on dispositions arises consciousness. Depending upon consciousness arises psychophysical personality. Depending on psychophysical personality arises six senses. Depending on the six senses arises contact. Depending on contact arises feelings. Depending on feeling arises craving.

[03:11]

Depending on craving arises grasping. Depending on grasping arises becoming. Depending on becoming arises birth. Dependent on birth arises old age and death, grief, lamentation, suffering, dejection and despair. Thus arises the entire mass of suffering. However, from the utter fading away and ceasing of ignorance there is ceasing of dispositions. From ceasing of dispositions, there is ceasing of consciousness. From ceasing of consciousness, there is ceasing of psychological personality. From ceasing of psychophysical personality, there is ceasing of the six senses. From the ceasing of the six senses there is ceasing of contact. From the ceasing of contact there is ceasing of feeling. From the ceasing of feeling there is the ceasing of craving.

[04:14]

From the ceasing of craving there is the ceasing of grasping. From the ceasing of grasping there is the ceasing of becoming. From the ceasing of becoming there is the ceasing of birth. From the ceasing of birth there is the ceasing of old age, death, grief, lamentation, suffering, dejection, and despair. And thus there is ceasing of the entire mass of suffering. I said that the previous sutra on the middle way presented a kind of practical middle way, and that this one is presenting the philosophical middle way, but that doesn't mean that this philosophical middle way doesn't have practical application, because it does have practical application.

[05:45]

It's just that I guess the difference is that in the first one we're watching for how we have a tendency to be devoted to various kinds of indulgence. Whereas this one is emphasizing more the arising of knowledge, looking at how knowledge arises. And so it's still looking at our experience, which is somewhat practical, but it's more philosophical in the sense that it's looking at how we view things, how we know things, different ways of knowing things, different kinds of knowledge, different kinds of views.

[06:54]

So it's not that different and it's not that much less practical, but it's more, if you'll excuse the expression, epistemological, because we're looking at the ground upon which we have our knowledge. Also, the previous scripture where it says, you know, avoiding these extremes, one enters the middle way, and he says, what is the middle way? And then he says, well, it's eightfold path. And the eightfold path is right view, right thinking. right speech. And so here's right view. So this scripture is still about the right view that's in the Eightfold Path that's discussed in the previous one.

[08:04]

So there isn't a strong division. I don't mean to set up a strong division between these two scriptures, but this one is focusing on right view. The other one in some ways, you know, if you look at it in terms of the Eightfold Path, if you look at this, avoiding these extremes in terms of the Eightfold Path, which aspects of the Eightfold Path are involved there? Right action. Right action. How so? Yeah, how is right action involved in avoiding these extremes that are talked about in the previous scripture of turning the Dharma wheel? Well, the indulgences result in action, although it has started with a thought or whatever the context of the situation.

[09:17]

Right. Sort of like effort, but mindfulness. You seem like all of them. But let's look at right effort, shall we? Do you say right action? So what is right action as taught in Eightfold Path? Action appropriate to the situation. Right, but how do they usually talk about it, do you know? Not harmony. Not harmony. Yeah, it's like, is not killing, not stealing, and... No, it's not, right? Not killing, not stealing, and no sexual misconduct. And they don't say so, but also that would include, I think, not intoxicating yourself. So, putting him positively... you know, not, you know, leaving yourself alone, being gentle and kind and being generous and these ways of non-harming physical action, they would go with avoiding the extremes.

[10:44]

Your behavior wouldn't, wouldn't be diverting you from what's happening, wouldn't be diverting you from paying attention to what's going on with you. Whereas these harmful actions would send you off into extremes of hurting yourself or indulging in sense pleasures. So indulging in sense pleasures goes with intoxication. Addiction to sense pleasures goes with intoxication and misusing sexuality, and sometimes with stealing, taking more than is really given to you, taking an extra drink when it's really not given to you. And of course, some people kill themselves and others

[11:45]

which is another way of deviating from the path. Also, how about right intention? Right intention seems to be also related to not veering off. So your right intention is to practice the middle way rather than going to these extremes. Right speech, again, you know, telling the truth, Not gossiping. Gossiping's a way that a lot of us distract ourselves from what's going on. Many people have trouble staying aware of how they feel when there's talk. which is one of the reasons why some people in meditation halls, when they don't talk, they become more aware of how they feel. Sometimes they have a really hard time with being so aware of how they feel.

[12:51]

If they could just start talking, it would disperse that awareness. And one might think, well, yeah, good, let's disperse it. I'm feeling terrible. But the middle way is not to run away from what's happening. And of course sometimes speaking of others' faults and of course lying and speaking harshly, these are other ways to divert yourself from the middle way, to indulge in self-mortification or addiction to sense pleasure. Wrong livelihoods are also ways to go away. I think, as Scott said, if we look at each one of these eightfold paths, we find there are ways of staying on course or not doing them are ways to veer off. But this one is particularly looking at the first aspect of the eightfold path. And it's saying that right view

[13:59]

So to what extent is there right view? And then the Buddhist says, in the world there's generally an inclination towards two views, existence and non-existence. And he doesn't mention that these views of existence and non-existence are not right view. But then he goes on to say, To him who perceives with right wisdom, and actually, you could also say right knowledge. Anyway, it's samapanya, which means right or comprehensive insight or wisdom. To one who perceives with right wisdom the uprising of the world as it has come to be. And that's a key phrase, as it has come to be. The notion of non-existence in the world does not occur.

[15:14]

So he's saying that if one observes, if one perceives something with right wisdom, which means you're paying attention to what's happening, and you see how something arises, you see how it has come to be, at that time you don't think of non-existence. Now that may seem to be straightforward, that how could you think that something that happens that something that's happening is non-existent, right? But he's saying that people actually do sometimes hold the view of non-existence, that there is such a thing as non-existence. They have that view. Does that mean death? No, it doesn't mean death. It's more like it's related to annihilation. that you think something is totally annihilated.

[16:33]

Yes, something that existed before is totally annihilated, does not exist. Does anybody have that view? So that's a view which is in the world. It's the view of non-existence, that something that was there before got annihilated. But he's saying that if you watch something arise and you see how it has come to be, you won't hold that view anymore of annihilation. But if you don't watch how things come to be, if you don't watch carefully, so carefully that you see how they come to be, or as it has come to be. If you don't observe that, you can hold this view which Greg has so kindly admitted she holds sometimes or all the time.

[17:37]

And similarly, if you watch something perish or cease, you watch it carefully and you see how it has come to, how its ceasing has come to be, You will not hold the view of something existing. And something existing means you think it exists eternally. That people actually hold that view of something existing eternally. Even though we know we're going to die, right? But even though we know we're going to die, we at the same time are holding this view that we're eternal. We carry that around. These are two views, and avoiding these views without approaching either of these extremes, the Tathagata doesn't approach either of these extremes and teaches that doctrine of the middle. And you can teach the doctrine of the middle when you avoid these extremes, and avoiding these extremes is the doctrine of the middle.

[18:48]

So you're observing things happen arising and ceasing and you observe them so closely that you you see the true basis of what you know of what you experience. And when you see the true basis of what you know you no longer hold these positions. These positions are untenable or seen through. Carolyn, yes? So if you're working with yourself with this, you're thinking thoughts. You're thinking thoughts. They're negative thoughts. They're negative, OK. They're negative feelings. Yes. Or you just think, this will go, this comes, this goes.

[19:59]

How would you work with that? Well, let's see. It might be good to mention a little bit, read a little bit further before we talk about how to work with it. So he's making a statement here that if you can, that one who observes things arise and you have right wisdom. And right wisdom is that you perceive the arising of the world. When there's right wisdom, you perceive the arising of the world as it has come to be. That's how you perceive it. That you perceive the arising of the world as it comes to be. Or you could say almost how it comes to be. In other words, you see the epistemological, the source, the basis by which you know this thing.

[21:01]

You see that. And when you see that, you don't hold this additional thing about that this thing's permanent or impermanent. But Actually, not permanent, excuse me. It's not that you don't hold the idea that things are impermanent. You don't hold the idea that the thing's annihilated. Annihilation is different than impermanence. So holding the position of impermanence, it's okay to hold the position of impermanence in the world. You can hold that. That's different from holding the position of annihilation or non-existence. For worldly phenomena are impermanent. They do change, they arise and cease. But we can watch impermanent phenomena, we can watch them arise and cease, but if we don't have wisdom and see how they come to be, we not only can observe their impermanence, but we can convert their impermanence into annihilation.

[22:07]

We can also watch their impermanence and simultaneously think that they're eternal. that they really exist even though we see their impermanence. The reason why we can do this wonderful nonsense thing is because we don't see clearly what's happening. But he's saying if you clearly see this you won't hold either of these views. In the world of phenomena you will see them appear and disappear, arise and cease. And when you look at the arising as it happens, you will no longer get into annihilationism. And you see the ceasing as it actually happens, you won't get into eternalism. You won't get into those positions if you see this as it is. And that will be the middle way. So let me just now, he's saying that's possible. He says, in the world, for the most part, kachayana, is bound by approach, grasping, and inclination.

[23:15]

And she who does not follow approach and grasping, that determination of mind, that inclination and disposition, who does not cling or adhere to the view, quotes, this is my permanent self, unquote, who thinks suffering that is subject to arising arises, suffering that is subject to ceasing ceases. Such a person does not doubt, is not perplexed. Herein her knowledge is not other dependent. Thus far, Kachayana, there is right view. Okay, now I think you could bring up your questions now that you've heard this part.

[24:21]

For me, when I'm in the middle of... whatever you want to call it. When you have a negative experience? Yes. A negative experience, is it arising now or ceasing? Is it right now arising? No, I mean, are you talking about the arising of it or the ceasing of it? I guess it's more the arising of it. It seems to me that everything's going so fast. Yeah. I'm in it. Yeah. Yeah. And I feel... I know I identify with it. Right. So... I guess, just for me, it is extremely difficult to believe... To believe? To believe that this is not me.

[25:22]

It's extremely difficult for me to do that. Yes. And to... I just get real... You get doubt, you have doubt, you're perplexed and you have doubt about what you're perceiving? You feel perplexed? I have doubt about myself. You have doubt about yourself and you're perplexed? Yeah. And of course we've got to... Yeah, I'm perplexed. I don't exactly know what to do. I try to just stay... Plus you have a negative experience in this case. Yeah, that's what I'm having. Now, but if it's a positive experience, you're not perplexed, you don't doubt yourself? I don't know. I don't think I examined that as closely as I did. Okay, so you don't know. Well, the Buddha says you might be perplexed in that case, too. But you might not notice you're perplexed, and you're also suffering in that case, probably, but you may not notice it because maybe you don't notice the suffering of pleasure as much as you notice the suffering of pain.

[26:26]

I think that's true. A lot of people don't know that. They say, suffering and pleasure? What? But then you can sometimes help them see that. But anyway, so there you are having something's arising, something negative, and you're perplexed. And so you're feeling a negative sensation plus you're perplexed on top of that. You're miserable. Yeah. Okay. So you don't know what to do under those. I try to just stay with physical experience, but it's very hard for me when I'm in that place with the thoughts, not believing the thoughts. Not believing that there's something wrong with me for having these thoughts. And I know intellectually I must be thinking that way, blah, blah, blah. But I do. Okay. So there we are. So what's the practice? So you said something about you try to stay with the physical sensation.

[27:28]

Do you try to stay with the mental sensation too? So you try to, but you have a hard time. You're a little bit better able to stay with a physical sensation. But when the mental sensation comes up, or the mental perception comes up, like, you're a bad one, for example. Or I'm thinking something, or I'm having a negative thought about somebody else. Or there's a negative thought, this person's a jerk, that arises, you have trouble being with that. I can be with that, but then I have trouble knowing what to do with that. You can be with that, but you have trouble knowing what to do with that. Well, I very quickly go into, why am I thinking this? What's the matter with me? Blah, blah, blah. So you have this negative thought about the person. Then you have, what's the matter with me? Then you have blah, blah, blah. And it's hard for you to stay with Some of the more, it's hard, maybe you think you can stay with this thought of this person's a jerk, but actually it doesn't sound like you did stay with it.

[28:34]

It sounded like you had a thought, this person's a jerk, then what's the matter with me? Why can't I stop this? When's this going to end? What's practice? Oh, there's another jerk. What's the matter with me? What can I do with this? What can I do about that? I can't do anything. I'm hopeless. There's another jerk. So you have trouble, what did you say? Sounds familiar. So, Buddha's saying that if you would watch these things, okay, you would not be able to attribute either of these extremes to what's happening. So he's suggesting that in the world when things arise, The world, you know, things that arise are bound by approach, grasping, and inclination.

[29:36]

So something arises and you tend to approach it or try to grasp it or grasp it. Think about what you can do about it. You have dispositions about what to do about it. Like you have the disposition to maybe think negatively about somebody or positively about somebody. So you have these various inclinations and prejudices and stuff that are going on. This is characteristic of the situation. So what do we do and how do we practice in a case like that? I think I may be wrong here, but I think I know you're supposed to watch it. It's just the actuality for me of doing that feels, you know, I'm all over the place. I'm just very hard. Yeah. Watch the thoughts. Yeah. It's very hard to watch the thoughts. And so just to practice, is there something you can say about, is there some way of, like if you were to ride a bike, you know, it kind of, there's certain things you do to do that.

[30:51]

Are there certain things you could do to learn to watch the thoughts? Am I making sense? Mm-hmm. What does the sutra say? The sutra says, he who does not follow the approach, she who does not follow that approach, that grasping, that determination of mind, that inclination, does not cling or adhere to the view, this is myself, who thinks the suffering that is subject to arising arises The suffering that is subject to ceasing ceases. Such a person does not doubt, is not perplexed. So, you're saying when suffering arises, you have trouble thinking.

[32:02]

the suffering that arises, the suffering that's subject to arising arises, you have trouble saying that to yourself. I know intellectually that's true. I mean, I know I have an intellectual understanding of that, but not on a pragmatic way. I can say that, but it doesn't seem to change anything. You know what I mean when I'm in it? I mean, I can say it. This is just arising. Well... It seems like... To do this practice, to change something, of course we want to change, but to try to change something by doing this is not really the practice.

[33:08]

To say, to see some suffering arise and to think, the suffering that is subject to arising arises, if you're looking for how that would change things, or if you're looking for some way to do that, that's a little bit more like this approach and clinging. Investment in changing. Right. And you can see the investment in changing. That's another phenomenon you can see, which is another version of suffering doesn't arise necessarily you know generically as generic suffering it's usually specific like I would like to fix this kind of that's the way suffering is arising right now I would like to be able to do something about this I'm judging this person and that's painful so there's a suffering that's subject to arising it can arise and it's arising

[34:16]

Now that suffering is there for long enough for me to see that it has arisen. It's completely arisen now. And maybe then later I see this suffering is also subject to ceasing and now it's ceasing. Now if you watch this and you're saying, but I can't. But you say you can't, but that's just another suffering. That statement, I heard it. It wasn't suffering for me to hear that you say that. To me, it was like, this is my job. I like this work. This is not suffering that you're telling me this. But for you, maybe that's another kind of suffering. I can't even pay attention to the arising of suffering. But that's not true. That's just another suffering thought. I guess it's suffering for you to think that way. But that's really a thought. That's not true. That's just another perception that which you cling to.

[35:18]

You think it's true. You think it's yours. That's your tendency. And now you think those kinds of thoughts are your tendency. And there's other kind of thoughts which might arise occasionally. You might say, those aren't my tendency. This is a surprise. I thought that. That could happen. But anyway, you say you can't do this, but you wouldn't be able to tell me this if you couldn't do it some, because you wouldn't be able to tell me about the suffering that you noticed. You wouldn't be able to tell me about that you notice there's a judgment, a negative judgment of somebody coming up, which is painful to you. You wouldn't be able to tell me that if you hadn't been able to watch it come up and feel it. You did notice that. You did. And then also you notice that after that another thought came up called, I'm not supposed to be doing this or what's wrong with me for thinking this way? Why am I so judgmental? I belong to the Dolphin Club in San Francisco.

[36:27]

It's a club on the bay where we go swimming. One time I was in the sauna and I heard these two guys talking and this one guy was saying various things and he said, I'm sort of saying bad things about everybody. What's going on with me?" I thought, good. He continued to do that, but he did notice for a second that he was saying one negative thing after another about everything that came up. He was down on it. And this is one miserable guy, but he noticed the key there in the sauna. He noticed I'm doing this. What is that saying about me? I think he even said, what does that say about me? Sure it is. That's a suffering. No, all of them were suffering. He was miserable. Miserable, miserable, [...] miserable. Putting this down. All those are painful, aren't they? Even though they're painful, they are painful, they could also be ways to distract yourself from another pain.

[37:36]

And that's what a lot of people do is they do those to distract from another one. That's how we do that. But if you catch yourself at this, then you catch yourself at the next thought, which that one ceases and another one comes up. So jerk comes, goes down. What's the matter with me? Comes up, goes down. How can I do something about this? Comes up and goes down. I can't do anything about this. I don't know how to meditate. Comes up and goes down. There's another jerk comes up. This is a thing, right? Each one of these things you noticed. You can tell us about that. You told us. You see, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. In other words, blah, blah, blah. It's not just, hmm, it's blah, blah, blah. You see the rising of this blah and the going away of that blah and the rising of the next blah and the next going. You notice that. You are somewhat aware of this. I guess I think I have some sort of picture in my head about, you know, having all this negative stuff going on and sort of watching this thought how it will go.

[38:36]

So that's not, yeah, that thought too, that's what a meditator is supposed to look like, rises and ceases. In between, every now and then you have this, what a meditator is supposed to be doing, coming up and going down. So this is what I'm supposed to be doing. I'm not doing it. This is what I am doing. I'm not supposed to be doing this. I feel bad that I'm doing what I'm not supposed to do. This is what I'm supposed to be doing. I'm not doing it. Right? That seems to be what's happening, right? These are called impermanent phenomena. Okay? Okay? You could, like, program a Buddha, you know, for fun, just to think the thoughts you're talking about. Let's say you did. Buddha says, say, Buddha, would you please think Carolyn's thoughts for a little while? So Buddha would go, jerk. Buddha would maybe say, do you really want me to do this? Yes. Jerk. What's the matter with me? I'm not supposed to be thinking like this. I'm a Buddha. I should be thinking differently.

[39:38]

Well, why don't you? They asked me to do this. How long do they want you to do it? I don't know. Why don't you ask? Did I do it enough? Yes. Okay, now I'll go back to be Buddha. What's the difference? No difference. There's no difference. For impermanent things like this, they just go up and go down and up and down. The difference is, the reason why the Buddha would be happy to think your thoughts for you, and actually why the Buddha is right with you all the time while you're thinking these thoughts, Buddha's not someplace else, you know, like, kind of like, oh, when's she going to stop this? You know? You know, as soon as she stops this, or at least takes a break, just a little pause, then I'll come and I'll inhabit her. That ain't Buddha. Buddha's with you, holding your hands as you walk through this forest of pain. That's where Buddha is, right with you. And Buddha's watching. Oh, there she goes. There's this little Buddha. This is a person who fully possesses our wisdom and compassion and virtues.

[40:40]

But she's holding to these things. She's holding to these things. She's holding to these things. She's holding to these things. Therefore, she doesn't get it. She doesn't get that we're here with her and she's one of us. She doesn't get it because she's holding to these things. because she's got this grasping, this inclination. This is me. These are mine. I'm the one who has these. And not only that, but I'm a miserable, judgmental, lousy meditator. That's who I am. I'm not a good meditator. Or somebody else says, I'm a good meditator, and I have positive thoughts. I don't have negative thoughts. I'm doing the right thing. There's meditators like that. You might wish to trade with them, but anyway... The thing is that they're not really worse than you, but they've got basically the same problem, but it's harder for them to see. You know you have a problem. They don't. So in a sense, you have an advantage. You're not right about your opinion of yourself.

[41:40]

It's not true that you're not a good meditator and you're not supposed to be doing this and you're supposed to be doing something else. That's not true. Those are just thoughts. And you're clinging to it, however. That you shouldn't be doing. So how are you going to stop clinging? That's the thing. Well, you're kind of like, you know, the clinging really isn't happening. You just think it is. So you not only think these thoughts, but you cling to them as something that's real, but you don't really cling to them as real because you don't really think they're real because, you know, they don't work. But you're involved in this illusion of clinging to them. And that's the difference between a Buddha and not a Buddha. Not the difference in the content, but the way of handling it. Because behind this thought is the idea that it's permanent or that it's annihilated. It's this solid reality behind these thoughts that's really what's making us grab them and making them grab us.

[42:48]

But if we would watch them more carefully... we would see that they are neither annihilated nor are they eternal, and then we would no longer be perplexed by them. But we kind of think they have really something there, therefore we're compelled by that belief, that fundamental belief to grasp them. So again, going back to your example, what's the difference between what's happening with you and the way one should practice? It's in a sense, it's just a steadier vision of the thing, which you already know about, but you're saying, I don't have the steady vision, so how do I live with my unsteady vision? You live with your unsteady vision. If you feel you're unsteady, you live with that. You say, I'm not seeing this clearly. But that's not really true, that's just your attitude. That's another thing to watch. Now, did I see it clearly that I think I can't see clearly?

[43:54]

Was that clear? Was that fairly clear? Is it fairly clear that I really think that I'm not supposed to be doing this? And is it fairly clear that I have the thought I should be doing something else? Is that quite clear? Can I look at that? Is that stable? Do I have a nice clear view of, I know what I'm supposed to be doing. There it is. Can you look at that? Yeah, maybe you can. But if you can't, if you're looking at something else, which is even more difficult to look at, like how bad a meditator you are. Maybe when you look at that, you just barely can stand to even get a glimpse of it. Well, then you say, I'm barely able to even get a glimpse of this. Well, that's where you're at. That's what you work with at that time. That's the phenomenon. That's the thing that's arising and ceasing. That's the place you start. That's what you think is happening. And fortunately you are aware of something like that. You can't have a different experience than that one. You can't have a different sense of how present you are with it.

[44:57]

This is called practicing patience. This is called taking your seat. And you gradually... get more and more intimate with simply how, first of all, that thing seemed to be happening, and now they're going away and something else is happening. You get more familiar with that, more intimate with that. And then you start to see how. So there's a general tendency in Buddhism to emphasize how rather than what. It's not that we never are concerned with what. As a matter of fact, what is... is one of the questions we might ask, but I think how is more the original question. How? How does it happen? How does it arise? Sorry. So we need to get in.

[46:12]

What the Buddha is saying here is, to her who perceives with right wisdom the arising of the world, in other words, each phenomenon of your experience, as it comes to be or as it has come to be. That's what you need to learn how to do. you are seeing the arising and ceasing of things. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to have these series of experiences. Something comes up, you are noticing that. So you are paying attention, but is that you more and more like can really just take it as it's coming to you. Including the statement, I can't take it as it's coming to me. So that no matter what comes, you take it. As it comes, you receive it. You don't quibble.

[47:13]

You don't negotiate. You don't meddle. You really work with what's given to you. And you say, thank you for this opportunity to work with this. And when you have that attitude, you kind of can see how it comes to be. So it says, she who perceives with right wisdom how this phenomena has come to be. or perceives this phenomena as it has come to be. So you've got right wisdom, so then you perceive this thing, this worldly phenomena, this impermanent phenomena, as it arises. But the other way around is true too. When you see how it arises, or you see it as it has come to be, you have right wisdom. So how do you see something as it arises? Well, you've got to be close to it and quiet. Right? Like if you get down on the ground, you know, put your face down on the ground, just watch the ground, and then you see a little sprout come up.

[48:16]

You see how it comes up. You're watching really carefully. You're not wishing you had a different place. You're watching right here. And you see something come up, and you see how it comes up. And when you see how it comes up, you no longer think, you no longer believe that things are annihilated. you see that the world is not annihilated. The impermanent world is not annihilated because you see how things happen. And also when the sprout goes down or dies and you watch how that happens, how it comes to be that it dies, that it ceases, you no longer think that, you no longer hold the view that they're eternal. When you drop away these views of eternal and annihilated, which are behind everything, that you hold behind everything, then you're set. Now your view is changed. So in some sense you don't have to really make an effort to practice anymore because you're not going to mess with things anymore because you're not provoked to mess because you don't have this view of it, these two extreme views.

[49:29]

You're not holding them. So you're not even provoked anymore to cling, follow an inclination and approach things. It's because we think things are really out there or really annihilated that we approach. It's because we think things can be annihilated that we attach to them. And because we think things are eternal, we seek them. Buddha doesn't attach and doesn't seek because Buddha knows that Things are not annihilated. You don't have to hold on to things. They're not annihilated. They just change. Now, we know things change. We know people change, right? But we also think, even though we see them change, we think that they can be annihilated. So we cling to them.

[50:30]

We know things change, right? But we think they're eternal, too. At the same time we know they've changed, we think they're eternal. So we seek them. Buddha had dropped these views so Buddha doesn't attach or seek. Once you don't attach or seek, then all these prejudices, inclinations, dispositions, they have nowhere to get up. They just drop away. In the meantime, when we still can indulge in them, we have to train ourselves to give up these things. We have to give them up. We have to not approach things But we have to discipline ourselves at it because we're still susceptible to approach. We have to not grasp. But we can't stop ourselves from grasping. That's another kind of grasping. What we have to do is we become quiet and still and close, intimate, not messing with what's happening, including that when you say, I can't not mess with it, that you don't mess with the fact that you can't not mess with it.

[51:34]

You say, I'm totally, I'm a meddling fool. I meddle with everything. There's nothing I don't make some kind of argument about. So in between every event is like, give me a different one. Give me a different one. Give me a different one. And then, so, give me a different person. You know, give me a different self that wants a different person. Give me a different meditator. You know, blah, blah, blah. At some level, you have to practice patience with this. You have to realize that you have to accept this, and this is what you work with. Are you being given challenging assignments? I would say so. Sound pretty challenging. Sounds pretty tempting for you to try to negotiate or tamper with what's being given to you, to argue with what life's offering to you.

[52:40]

Sounds pretty tempting to do that, but this is what you have to give up. That's not the end of the story. That's the beginning of the practice. The beginning is take your seat. Then if you get into this, as you get more and more into it, then other things develop, like this great thing develops is that you start to notice these extremes. You start to notice that you, poor little you, is walking around with these metaphysical positions of eternalism and annihilationism, that you actually hold these positions. Poor little you, a heavy-duty philosopher, And there are people in the world, philosophers, professional philosophers, who hold these positions, like sane people supposedly. And in the time of Buddha, there were 62 types of philosophers. But all 62 types were variations on the theme of annihilation and permanence or eternalism.

[53:43]

And Buddha looked at all these different ways of dealing with these things and he said, None of them are the way I see things, so he had made his new way up called the middle way, which was to cut through all these different positions which are behind the disturbance in the way people feel about their life. As long as these are behind your views, you're going to be somewhat perplexed and somewhat in doubt about what's going on with you and who you are. So it's going to be hard to meditate. It's not going to be like spontaneous meditation practice. You're going to have to discipline yourself because you think, when you hold these views, you think there's something to quibble about. You can't help it. You're going to complain. You're going to be driven to fight what's happening in your own mind, in your own body,

[54:49]

Forget about the external world. You're going to fight yourself all day long. And you had this wonderful example of constantly fighting yourself and fighting others too. They don't know about it usually, I guess, right? But if they knew, they'd think you were their enemy. So you don't tell them, which is fine. But you have to deal with it. And you do, and that's good. But you know this. You are aware. This is key. If you didn't know about any of this, it would be then if somebody else would be bringing up, you'd be sitting over there thinking, gee, that person's got problems. Too bad for that person. And it'd be hard for me to ask you what's going on with you, and it'd be hard for you to tell me what you're up to if you didn't notice it. Matter of fact, you might think that person's really stupid to have these problems of being negative about other people. Why do they do such a stupid thing? Poor thing. It's a relief that I don't. Can you believe people are that unaware?

[55:51]

Yeah? Carolyn? Oh, could you say a little more about the annihilationism? And perhaps it's a historic reference. It's hard to grasp what that means. I can't sense what that would mean, although I can see the other side, the eternalism. You can see that side. I think so. I think we tend to think like that. We're more schooled in that kind of thinking now. Do you want to say something about that? I don't know what they... Sure, go ahead. My, because that was really helpful for me with this, is I think my grasping, honestly, I want to tone this, with my coming from my belief that I can really actually cease these thoughts, that they're not like these thoughts. Oh. That's driving... Yes.

[56:56]

Go ahead. Go ahead. One word. Extinction. We're not written to the fact that we are gone. Well, whatever. I'm talking about most of it. So Buddhism is not saying that death is extinction. Buddhism doesn't say death is extinction. Death is not annihilation. Death is death, life is life, and we don't say that life turns into death. In other words, we don't say life is annihilated and that's death. Death is not the annihilation of life. In the conventional dualistic world, there's impermanence and change and suffering and there's birth and death.

[58:09]

But there's not annihilation in that world and there's not eternal things in that world. Reality. You're not trying to get what? What? Well, eternal would be, for example, you think you live forever. Like you die, but you keep going or something like that. So you know, huh? Well, maybe it's okay. You want to trade that one in? Right. But I want to work on it a little bit before you trade it in, okay? Okay. You may not have a problem with this, but a lot of people know. They say, sure, I know I die. But they actually think that they won't die.

[59:15]

They actually don't think they're going to die. They think they're eternal. They actually do think that they're going to go on forever. Some people do. Even though, of course, they know they're going to die, right? But they think something lasts. That's a view that some people have. So you want to have some other idea. Is there anything you think lasts eternally? You don't have to have that view that something lasts forever. What about Buddha? The Buddha that appears and disappears? The Buddha that doesn't appear, doesn't disappear, but is not eternal. It's just not impermanent because it doesn't happen. Everything that happens goes away. Okay? But some people, they know this happens and they know this happens and goes away, but they still hold behind this thing.

[60:21]

They hold this eternal position. But not everybody holds the eternal position, but almost everybody holds one or the other. Some people hold both. That's one of the possibilities, to have both. But there are schools in Indian philosophy and there are schools in American philosophy, which are these two positions together. Materialism is an annihilationist position. Materialism, for example, says that there's a thing called life that gets annihilated. It's a material phenomena, and when the conditions arise for it, there it is, and when they go away, it goes away, and they make that into annihilation. Buddha was not happy with that view, and they had that view back in his time, too. There were people who just had that view of when somebody dies, that's it. There's nothing, absolutely nothing left. There's nothing of the life left.

[61:23]

They know that the carbon atoms then start spinning around the universe and everybody shares them eventually. They know about that. But they actually think that there's annihilation. Some people hold that position. If you have neither of these positions sitting behind... your experiences, then you just look at them as they happen. You see how they happen. You're not perplexed. And you see what's on the second side of the sheet. You see how suffering arises. You see this thing. And when you see how suffering arises, you're not ignorant anymore. And when you're not ignorant anymore, then you see how suffering ends. But the first thing you have to do is you have to start watching things arise and cease, which you are doing, Carolyn's doing, and I think others of you too. You see the beginning of the retreat and the end of the retreat. You see the beginning of the day and the end of the day.

[62:24]

You see the beginning of the bite and the end of the bite. You see the beginning of the feeling, and you do see these are your experiences in the conventional world, risings and ceasings. Are you intimate with them? You need to find a way to become intimate with these things and watch them more and more, just basically watching them, and that's it. Not even trying to figure out how they happen is the way to see how they happen. You don't try to figure it out. You don't try to look for how they're happening. You just watch them, and the less... attachment and greed and approach you have towards them, the better you're positioned to see how they happen. The more you're trying to get something from phenomena, the more you're trying to get something from a phenomena, like to see how they happen so you can be Buddha, the more you're approaching the worldly way, which is based, that whole approach is based on that thing, that is either an eternal or an annihilated, you know,

[63:31]

thing out there that you're going to get. So the approach not only will reveal what you need to see, but the approach of revelation is also the approach you would take after you have revelation. Namely, it's not an approach even. You don't approach things. Because approaching them is believing that they're really over there or really not over there. They are really, really there eternally, inherently, or they're really inherently not there, forever annihilated. And when you feel that way about things, you approach them. And when you don't approach them, you can start to stop feeling that way about them. So the meditation is a way for you to see things in such a way that when you see them that way, you would be the way you're meditating. But before you see them, you kind of have to meditate like you will be after you understand what you're seeing.

[64:38]

So the Buddha, understanding, doesn't attach or seek in her meditation. There's no attachment or seeking in the Buddha's meditation. And if you could see what Buddha sees, you wouldn't be attaching or seeking anything. You know? If you knew reality like Buddha knows reality, oh, oh, oh, what a guess. Okay, so let's see. There were a bunch of hands. Betty, Greg, Renia, Renee, Esme. Anybody else? I think Renia was first. I was just wondering, in your example, it seems as though the students... It seems like the Buddha actually, through his teaching, practically teemed that out as something that's really kind of special, if I can put it that way, and not anything for the both of you.

[65:51]

Because a little of my feeling is that the spiral unit is self-producing, only thoughts Okay, so self-criticism. is a perfectly, you know, legitimate phenomena. Okay, here's self-criticism. Boom, boom. A pleasant experience is a perfectly good phenomena. Boom, boom. Okay? Right. Nothing special about it. But you can use self-criticism as a way to distract yourself from your meditation. Then that's called self-mortification. Right?

[66:52]

So you say, well, you know, Here I am thinking badly about myself, so I'm not indulging in sense pleasures, so maybe I'm practicing the middle way. But actually, I think I'll say, just to make sure that I don't even congratulate myself on that, because that might be indulging in sense pleasures, I'll say, not only are you bad, but you're a bad meditator too, so you're not even practicing the middle way of avoiding the extreme of indulging in sense pleasures. So when you get involved, you said spiral into self-criticism. So maybe what you mean by spiral into self-criticism is when you start using self, you use, you use self-criticism rather than just it being self-criticism. Then self-criticism takes you away from your meditation. Right. And self-criticism, even a little bit of self-criticism for a lot of people is a good enough excuse to Just a little bit of self-criticism can turn into spiraling into self-criticism, can turn into self-mortification. But self-criticism can be quite healthy.

[67:56]

You know, like you could say, I'm leaning. I'm leaning into self-criticism. I'm leaning into indulgence and addiction to sense pleasures. I'm leaning away from what's happening. That's self-criticism. That could be a nice little help to sort of say, okay, now straighten up. But if you get into too much, you decide to suffer that way rather than your basic suffering. And your basic suffering is due to this, the way you fundamentally see things as annihilated or eternal. That's what's driving you to all these tendencies which create these elaborations of your basic problem. We're trying to work our way back to our basic problems. We have to eventually face them. Because we can, you know, it's fine to patch up the superficial ones, the derivative ones, but we'll just be doing that forever. Not even forever, sorry, take it back.

[68:59]

We won't do it forever. We'll just do it for a long time, and then we'll flop, you know, and we won't even be able to fix them anymore, and they'll still be coming up. But if we get down to the root ones, there will be no, you know, there will be no source for these problems. So we can't ignore our superficial derivative problems because we have to face them. And the way we face them, if it's skillful, takes us gradually down to the root ones. And when we face the root ones, we achieve liberation. This text is trying to get us to a root phenomenon, a root philosophical bias we have. which obscures our vision of how things are, vice versa, seeing how things really are, these positions drop. And we're, well, we're very happy with what we got to work with. Betty? So, I have a couple of questions. I'm not exactly clear how it works.

[70:14]

Yes. [...] Can we do that one? So if you, a judgmental thought arises, and maybe that, in response to that, you think, oh, I think I'll practice loving-kindness. This is a good time to practice loving-kindness, you might think. that thought might arise, and then you might start practicing loving-kindness. So, look, are you practicing loving-kindness to avoid anything?

[71:22]

If so, then your loving-kindness is a little off. Okay? So, but it is possible to just sort of say, oops, here, oh, gee, where'd you go? Wow, I'm thinking a negative thought about somebody. Wow, that is amazing. Me? Jeez. Well, anyway, time to practice loving kindness, you know. I still, you know, I still may keep thinking these negative thoughts because, you know, there they are. But I start... practicing loving-kindness and eventually I start practicing loving-kindness towards this person I have the negative thoughts on, this can all happen without any approach going on. Approach means it's over there. And not just over there, apparently, I mean like really, eternally. I seek it. I seek loving-kindness practice or I seek the end of the annihilation

[72:27]

of this negative thought or I seek, you know, some permanent, reliable relief from negative thinking and hatred. I want a permanent release from that. If I want permanent release, okay, permanent release, permanent release is unreliable. If you want permanent release from suffering, That's an unreliable motivation. Stable release from suffering means you're not trying to get permanent release from suffering because there's no eternal release in Buddhism and no eternal damnation. But we, human beings, come up with that very nicely. No one has to teach us that. Our mind can produce these ideas and make these eternal... and annihilation views of what's going on. So if you notice an approach in your loving-kindness meditation, if you notice that kind of thing going on, then you have to practice equanimity.

[73:37]

Loving-kindness should be practiced with equanimity. Equanimity has no preference for love over hate. You practice love with no preference for love. That's practicing love without attaching to it, without approaching it. It's not. So, practice love with equanimity. Then you don't approach the practice and you also don't avoid the negative thinking. Okay, second question. but it's something about the birth of the birth cell and how that arrives and how that is not too steadily I'm going to be clear with the vowels when we talk about that not too you know, we've got to find this awareness and so how is that

[74:44]

So it sounded like there were some different questions there. One question was, how is the bodhisattva born? So it depends on what you mean by bodhisattva. If you mean by bodhisattva, someone who is born of compassion? Is that what you mean by bodhisattva? Okay, well then you have to tell me what you mean by bodhisattva and then I'll tell you how it's born. You can do that with anything. You tell me the thing and we have to find out how it's born. But anyway, bodhisattvas, my bodhisattvas are born of compassion. And my Buddhas are born of compassion. What I consider a Buddha is born of compassion. And bodhisattvas are also born of compassion. And compassion can start for yourself or can be for others. But if it starts with yourself and you keep working on it, it starts to spread.

[75:59]

The more you think about your own suffering and the more you think it would be a good idea to be free of it, and the more you want to work for your suffering and suffering, the more you start to notice others are suffering. So if you meditate on your own suffering and start to see how it's characteristic of all beings who have any beliefs in annihilationism or eternalism, which is most people have one or the other, you see they're all suffering. When you start to see all the suffering, you gradually start to see you're the same as the other people. we all got this problem together, we're all suffering together. And then you kind of want that they'll be free of suffering too. And when you want that they'll be free of suffering, you have empathy and compassion. And when you want everybody to be free of suffering, you have great compassion. So bodhisattvas are born of this great compassion. And this great compassion can then develop even further

[77:03]

and blossom into what we call the aspiration to attain enlightenment in order to work the more effectively to help all beings be free. This is kind of how bodhisattva is born. Okay? Pardon? Eternal is not timeless. Eternal is a time deal and so is annihilation. The ordinary world, the world is a time machine and people have these views of eternalism and annihilationism and those are time things. The Buddhist world is not eternal and it's not annihilated.

[78:07]

That's the Buddhist world. The ordinary world is subject to, people tend to think of it as annihilated or eternal. It's not true, but people tend to think that. And they think it in the realm of time. Time is another way that we put that on the world. The world does not come with time. We made it up. In Buddha's world, there's no time, there's no space, there's no self, there's no other, and there's certainly no eternalism or annihilationism. It's emptiness. It's emptiness, right. The Buddha's really quite a good teacher. Let's see, who is next? Renee. I just wanted to make sure I understood what you said earlier. You said that it's okay to hold a view of it. Yeah, you can kind of hold it, tentatively. In other words, but you realize you're holding it in the realm of conventional phenomena.

[79:11]

So in the conventional world, there is birth and death. But that's not an ultimate truth. Impermanence is not an ultimate truth. It's a truth of the conventional world. Birth and death is not ultimate truth. And the fact that birth and death is not ultimate truth does not mean that what's true is that there's eternal thing. Again, eternalism and annihilationism occur in the world of birth and death. Those are positions, and you can see why people would come up with them, because faced with birth and death, you want to come up with, okay, well, just forget the whole blankety-blank thing. Pretty soon it's going to be all over. So relax. Don't worry. Have a ball. Annihilationism goes with materialism, goes with nihilism. It's all going to be over soon.

[80:14]

Have a hard time if you want to, but you might as well just take drugs for the rest of the time if you're rich. Because, you know, why suffer the rest of the way through this? Because it's going to be over pretty soon, etc. Annihilationism has major consequences in this world of birth and death. But the world of birth and death is painful. It's painful to be born. It's painful to be born. We like to watch the baby be born, but the baby has a hard time. And the mother has a hard time. Birth is painful and difficult. And death is painful and difficult. You open up to birth and death. You know, you be a philosopher and check out birth and death. Well, let's come up with a little eternalism or annihilationism to help us, you know, be comfortable with this mess. And so the Buddha saw various philosophers, various yogis, their attempt to cope with birth and death was eternalism, annihilationism, or all kinds of subtle combinations.

[81:17]

He said, they don't work. That's not the way you're going to be happy, to say, it's all going to be over, completely over soon. Death is going to come soon, that's for sure. But annihilation is never going to come. The Buddha says, you're never going to get annihilation. That's not going to be a solution to your problems. Well, another school says, well, it's eternal. That's not going to work either. It ain't the way it is. It's not a good coping mechanism. It causes trouble now. And every moment you apply those philosophies, they're going to cause you problems. They're going to make you not be able to face what's happening intimately and become liberated now. Okay, Renee? Okay, great. Thank you. She's not done? She's okay and she asked me another question?

[82:17]

All right. Did I tell you that or did somebody else tell you that? I just wonder if anybody else is talking like me around here. But Renee, you said it too now. Well, first of all, when I say simultaneous, for the one who can see form and emptiness, the Buddha, it's simultaneous, but the taniest part, you know, it's not really taniest. It's not time. But sort of a... together, you know, not at the same time, but together.

[83:21]

The Buddha can see the world of time and the world of no time at the same time, or at the same no time. The Buddha experiences time and no time at the same time, or at the same no time. The Buddha experiences emptiness and form at the same time. The Buddha sees the world where there's no birth and death, where there's no practice, where there's no self and other, where there's no beings, where there's nothing out there, you know, separate from anything else, Buddha sees that at the same time that Buddha sees the world where there is time and space and birth and death and self and other and suffering. Sees them simultaneously or at the same no time. We, prior to being Buddha, we need to, like, if we're looking at one, we can't see the other. So we've switched back and forth. It is pretty good to be able to switch back and forth, let me tell you. But especially the first, you know, switching to emptiness is a big relief, but you can't stay there forever if you're a bodhisattva.

[84:25]

You have to come back and into the world where there's time and space, birth and death, and practice virtues there in order to develop your Buddha body. But we have to go back and forth until we realize complete Buddhahood. So that's why we say, you know, when we receive the precept ceremony, we say, even after acquiring Buddhahood, but certainly until acquiring Buddhahood, will you keep coming back and practice these precepts. But there's no precepts in emptiness. So when you realize emptiness, as a bodhisattva, you come back and practice in the world of precepts again. So back and forth. Greg? That's a great way to end my question. Because when I read suffering that is subject to rising, suffering that is subject to ceasing, ceases, I can get huge comfort from that.

[85:26]

I mean, I can totally, and I can relate to this idea of no terrorism, no annihilation. It's huge, huge, huge time. The difficulty I have is that I try and sort of come up with a prescription for how I should be living my life, and ... You just read it. You just said it. But it always sort of seems like it's a prescription for just sitting like a lump on a wall. I mean, everybody in this room probably has, in some form or another, a likelihood that's related to going to eat, suffering, or extend a period of people's lives, and I won't ... Right. But you just ... you just spoke of a likelihood right there. which eases suffering. That's a livelihood. You just reading that and thinking that is a livelihood. It's a livelihood. It is a livelihood. When you are reading that, it is your livelihood. Now you may say, okay, I get to decide when my livelihood starts and ends.

[86:30]

I get to decide what the world's paying me for. And I would say, you know, be careful of that. Like your mother gave you milk, okay? You had a livelihood then, too. The milk wasn't your livelihood. You did something. You lived a certain way, and you got milk from your mother. Can you decide at what point were you on the job and what time did you stop working? Huh? Do you know when you started working? And that's when she started to give you the milk, and then you stopped, and you said, okay, you don't get paid for that. Whereas actually mothers feed the kids, some mothers think, what I'm really paying the kid for is sleeping. If you would just sleep, I'll give you all the milk in the universe. But the kid says, no, no, I'm not getting paid for sleeping. I'm getting paid for learning to talk. That's what I'm getting paid for. So we human beings, we have this segmented idea of what livelihood is.

[87:32]

Can I rage about this for a little while? We have this idea, oh, I get paid for working from 9 to 5. That's my livelihood. My livelihood is not what I do before and after that. But when we're young, when does our livelihood start? In fact, we get supported by the universe for everything we do. That's our livelihood. Everything you do has to do with your livelihood. You can't have a nice ecological job and then the rest of the time be a polluter because that's your livelihood too. You're actually getting paid for driving your car. Now, people say, people, your boss says, I didn't write that check because you drove to work. But some people actually get paid for driving to work. So they say, see, no, I did get paid. It's all just segmented ideas about when, what part of your life you're getting paid for. You're actually getting paid for your whole life. So your whole life should be right.

[88:35]

Because some people... Well, just let me say a little bit more, okay? I'm saying, this works up to the point of, what's a monk getting paid for? Sitting on a log? Maybe so. They sit on a log and they read that scripture and they feel soothed by that scripture. They're big time soothing. They read the scripture, they think of it on the log, they feel soothed and people bring them food and say, keep thinking that way and keep thinking that way. I like to see you soothed because when I come to see you, you're soothed and you say you love me and you mean it. Because you're soothed. You're not all hassled and negative. Because you read that scripture and you feel soothed. This monk is sitting on the log. People bring this monk food. The monk receives the food. Sometimes the monk get off the log and take a little walk to town. Okay? They go into the town and they bring this soothed body and show people a soothed body.

[89:39]

And people could say, how come you're soothed? And they say... Read this. And the person reads it, and she feels sued because the monk came to get his food. Now, he could have stayed out in the forest, and she could have gone to visit him, and he could have said the same thing. That would have been his livelihood, too. Whatever he does is his livelihood. When you read that and feel soothed, the world supports you to do that. You are being supported to read that and be soothed. You may not think that's your livelihood, but I say it is. I say, I do not agree with you that you can say when your livelihood starts and stops. If you help your mother, I say that's your livelihood. If you're cruel to your mother, I say that's your livelihood. You get paid for being cruel to your mother, too. Yeah, get paid back, right. You get what you get for the way you live. The word livelihood is often just translated as life.

[90:44]

And this life is supported. So we have this idea of what you do to get supported, and what you do to get supported is you live. And so, does the monk get up off the cushion and walk to town and share his body and mind with the people? Does she bring love to the city when she comes to get her food? Does she go into the house and recite scriptures for the people? Yes. And sometimes they go in and don't recite scriptures, and the person says to them, why don't you recite scriptures? And then they say something which has never been said before, and everybody in the house is liberated from suffering. This is after lunch, you know? They already got their food. What did they get their food for? For walking to town? Well, you could say yes. But the real gift happened, the monumental gift happened after they ate their lunch. So is that their livelihood? Yes. So you read this, and if you're soothed, then you're a soothed person in this world, and you do the other work you want to do.

[91:55]

So you can do other work. Once you're soothed, you're going to be better able to do your other work. You're going to be better able to sit patiently in some of the painful meetings you have to go to. You're going to be able to sit patiently and in a soothed way meditate while you're arguing with people for things you care about. But your livelihood doesn't start when you check in at the beginning of the meeting and end at the end of the meeting. You know it goes all day. You're studying, you're thinking about your work all the time. There's no beginning or end to your devotion to beings. Good livelihood, right livelihood, is devotion to beings. Wrong livelihood is cruelty to beings. But people make a living by being cruel. They get paid for it. Everybody gets paid. Living beings are supported. So it's not a question of not having livelihood. If we don't have livelihood, we're dead. We live for a while in this world.

[92:58]

We are born and we live and we die. We all have livelihood that whole time. The question is, is it right? Yeah. And if it's right for you to read that scripture, And I think it's really right livelihood for you to read that scripture. I would support you. I would give you food to read that scripture. As a matter of fact, I did give you breakfast today so you could read that scripture. We all gave you breakfast. Not just all of us. All of Tazahar, the whole universe gave you breakfast so you could read that scripture and be big time soothed. We want you to do that. And we also want you to do other stuff that you're going to do, too. We want you to be good to your mother. We want you to be good to yourself. We want you to be good to us. We want you to benefit all beings. We want that, and we support you to do that. But you know we're going to support you

[93:48]

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