Big story in a short verse, relatively short verse. When Lu Pu was about to die, he said to the assembly, I have one thing to ask you people. If this is so, this is adding a head on top of your head. If it is not so, this is cutting off your head, seeking life. At that time, the head monk said, Green Mountain is always moving its feet. You don't hang a lamp in broad daylight. Lu Pu said, What time is this to make such a speech? A certain elder, Yansong, came forth and said, Leaving these two paths, I request the teacher not to ask.

[01:03]

Lu Pu said, Not yet. Speak again. Yang Zong said, I can't say at all. Lu Pu said, I don't care if you can say it all or not." Yonsang said, I have no attendant to answer the teacher. So has everybody corrected that? No. Do you see the type, this mistake there? Yeah. Okay, so once again, Lu Pu said, not yet, or not quite yet. Ask again. And Yan Song says, I can't say it all. It all. I can't say it all. And Lūpū says, I don't care if you can say it all or not.

[02:24]

Yānsaṁ said, Okay. Lūpū says, I don't care if you can say it all or not. Yānsaṁ says, I have no attendant to answer the teacher. Okay. That evening he called the elder, Yānsaṁ, to his room. Your answer today was most reasonable. You should experientially realize the saying of my late teacher, quote, before the eyes there are no things. The meaning is before the eyes. That is not something before the eyes, not in reach of the eyes and ears. End quote. Do you have end quote there?

[03:27]

Which phrases are guest, which phrases are host? If you can pick them out, I'll impart the robe and bowl to you. Yansong said, I don't understand. Lupu said, You should understand. Yansong said, I really don't. Lu Fu shouted and said, how miserable, how miserable. He says it twice. Cleary decides to say it once. The monk asked, what is the teacher's meaning? Some other monk. We don't know exactly how later. It might have been the original monk. Anyway, somebody else is standing nearby and says, You know, well, what's the teacher's meaning? And Lukla said, the boat of compassion is not rowed over pure waves, over precipitous straits.

[04:32]

It is wasted effort to set out a wooden goose. So quite a few people are here tonight that weren't here last week. So, I'll go over the beginning of the story again, which is, Luke is about to die, and the introduction, the pointer, is alluding to the intensity of his situation, that he's about to die, he's perhaps in considerable pain. He's got a delicate situation here of his students who are probably having all kinds of intense feelings about him at this time, so it's a very intense situation.

[05:42]

And everything that anybody does carries a great a great moment on it. So they're trying to meet each other in a balanced way here at the final hour, the ultimate point of the practice. And Luke says, there's something I want to ask you about. And then he kind of like creates a container for the situation, for the question. And the container has these walls around it, and one part of it, one extreme or one limit is, if you say this, that adds a head on top of your head. If you approve

[06:47]

of your understanding or your practice, that's too much. You're overdoing it. On the other side, if you want to avoid making that mistake and becoming awkward by affirming your understanding, or even if he would become awkward to affirm the understanding of his students, and try to avoid that, if you try to avoid that to keep the life of the lineage, then you cut off your head in order to protect against adding a head. So these are the two extremes, the extremes of it is and it isn't, of approval and disapproval. So he's not exactly asking about that, right? He's asking about something else. And what he's asking about is something that if you say it's this, you'll add a head to it.

[07:57]

And if you try to avoid that, you'll cut a head off it. You'll cut its head off. So that's what he's asking about. In other words, he's asking about something inconceivable, which is called, you know, it has lots of names, right? The Buddha way, the middle way, and so on. the way that cuts through all positions that we take. So he asks about that and so then the head monk comes forward and says, okay, you want to know about the Buddha way or the inconceivable path of liberation? So he says, the blue mountains or the green mountains are always moving its feet. and you don't hang a lamp in broad daylight.

[08:58]

Now, I don't exactly know, but we know from the commentary that Lu Pu himself said something like this. Was the monk copying him? I don't know. Did he copy the monk later? Didn't have much time, I don't know. Perfectly good statement, but somehow the teacher... got upset with that and asked, why talk like this at a time like this? And then the elder comes forward and says, now putting aside these two roads, as you said, I request the teacher, I beg the teacher not to ask. So, In this kind of situation where any kind of position or holding is being warned against, he wants to ask. And so the elder comes forward and says, please don't ask.

[10:07]

And so here we are. So we can start right there. What's this? The stuffiness or the staleness of the head monk's response, if anybody wants to champion that, they're welcome to do so. Speak now or we shall go on. You said that this statement echoed or parented something that Luku has said previously in another question. Commentary reveals this. Yes. Okay. Because without that understanding, I was wondering where these two statements came from. They sound like non-separatists in the Kurdish nature. I was wondering, are they like stock phrases taken from the tradition down there? According to the book. You mean about mountains walking and stuff? Yes. Well, yes. Almost dark phrases. About mountains walking or moving their feet.

[11:11]

Lu Pu is, let's see, he is, I think he's prior to the Zen master, but he might be contemporary. Do you have your lineage chart, Andy? You can check that. One of our, one of the teachers in our lineage is named Furong Dalkai and his teaching was the green mountains are always walking. The green or the green? The green is where Luke is. Hmm? Yes. Oh, there it is. I have a better sense of what the second phrase means than the first one. I remember you saying some effect that the Buddhas are born at the bottom of the mountains. The Buddhas are born where the green mountains move over the water. The Buddhas are born where the mountains are moving their feet.

[12:18]

Yeah. In other words, at the bottom or at the limit of studying phenomena. Okay? If you study your posture, if you study your breathing, if you study your thinking thoroughly, right to the end of the thinking process, at the end of the thinking process is the foot of the mountain. Okay? At the foot of the mountain, at the limit of study of forms, is the realization of emptiness. And water... is, symbolizes emptiness. The mountain symbolizes form. So the mountains, or the mountain is moving its feet always. In other words, everything, everything is ultimately, at its limit, everything is liberated.

[13:23]

Every person, every plant, every thought, every experience at its total exhaustion, at its fullness, is spontaneously liberated. Things in their totality are liberated. Everything is. So, the practice is to totally study, totally embrace the mountains, totally embrace our experience, and then we realize that the mountains are always moving their feet. So that's just, that's the, and so anyway, Fu Rong is a, let's see, da-da-da-da-da-da. I think Furong is a little bit later than Lu Pu.

[14:40]

So maybe these walking mountains had been sighted earlier than Furong. Does anybody know of any other people that saw mountains walking early on in the Zen tradition? Well, Shobo Genzo is after this, later. We do have the ancestors saying, first mountains are mountains, then mountains are not mountains, then mountains are mountains again. That's Seigen Gyoshi. He said that way back. And he was contemporary with six patriarchs. So this idea of mountains being fully mountains and then mountains Mountains not being mountains is the same as mountains moving their feet. And the place where the mountains move their feet is a place where form is liberated by its own nature.

[15:47]

Okay? But something about this statement some people in this class felt was stale. And it looks like the teacher in this case did too. But now, what about the, what was so good about what the elder said, of saying, teacher, please don't ask? What was, what life is there in that, do you see? Or what life would you bring to the situation in a case like this? George? Before he asked the teacher not to ask, he says, leaving these two paths. Yes. And I guess that would say to leave behind the middle way. Yes. And, um, Requesting the teacher not to ask would be, the way I see it, would be allowing the Dharma to penetrate through the medium of silence, the way that it does during Zazen. That's what I'll say.

[16:51]

I think that's certainly true, but what's fresh about that, the way of saying it? Where's the freshness? Where's the... Or, yeah, okay, where's the freshness? There's many ways to say that. You interpreted it nicely, but can you see yourself, can you see, can you, what would you say if the teacher said to you, I want to ask you about this, there's these two extremes. He says, I want to ask you about one thing, and here's two extremes. And then the first monk, see, the first monk says this and the teacher says, mm-mm, no, I scolded him. That's already happened. Somebody's already been admonished. And now it's your turn. What's your feeling at this time? Did you say your name is Raja? What did you say last week?

[17:54]

What I said as I went back to the beginning... asking what is the... if this is so, and so that the this is also... I mean, not also, contemporaneously we're talking about the ultimate. This is what was dying. He's dying. And Yongsan is responding to that from his heart. So he's also saying, I don't want to talk about the question of whether your dying is so or not so. Yeah, I think that's very... Didn't you follow that? He doesn't want to talk about whether the teacher is dying or isn't dying. Whether death is so or not so. Yeah, whether this dying is so or not so. He doesn't want to talk. He asked the teacher not to ask about that, you say. That's how you feel. But was the teacher asking about that? Yes.

[19:11]

Sometimes when I read those lines, it's like an old friend, their peers, I have a sense. They've been talking together for a long, long time. And he's kind of just saying, let's, you know, let's not do this anymore. Let's not hang this plant. Now, we've done it, it's been years, going over this kind of essential setting, go on, is this so, is this not so, and And it was a kind of gentle crying that I sometimes pick up on the appliance. We've been through this before. We don't need to go through it again now. It lacks sensitivity. Okay. So, if that's the case... Did you hear what she said, Linda? If that's the case... How is it that the teacher says, well, that's good, but tell me more? So I say to you, okay, let's say that that was a good answer, Martha, tell me more.

[20:13]

Tell me more about what you mean. Well, I mean, it very quickly shifts for me. You're asking just about that line, when he says, please, I beg the teacher not to ask. That line itself, for me, is him just saying, you know, relax, you're dying, you're in pain, you're... Right. You don't need to do this anymore. Right, so you're saying... I know that this is happening. Yeah, so you're saying that very kindly to me, your old friend and teacher, right? Let's, as you say, let's relax and not do this anymore. So then I say to you, tell me more about this relaxing and not doing it. Tell me more about this. You mean I can relax? I don't have to worry about transmitting this robe and bowl to you or anybody else? My responsibility is not so heavy after all? Jeez, tell me more about that, would you please? I can't. Well, no, you can't say it all.

[21:16]

Does this line have some life? Which line? The line of discussion where she's saying, you know, let's relax here. Let's not do this anymore, whatever this is. We don't know what it is, but let's not do it, whatever it is. And then I say, yeah, I kind of like this, actually. but I want to hear more. And she says that she can't say it all. I want more and she can't give it all to me. I just want more, it looks like. I'm not necessarily asking for it all, I just want more. Anyway, I say, please tell me more. She says, I can't say it all. And then I say, I don't care whether you can say it all or not. Okay? And then she says... I have no attendant to answer the teacher. Or, you know, you could either read it as, I don't have an attendant to answer the teacher, because I'm just another monk, or I, attending the teacher, can't answer the teacher.

[22:41]

What's that? What's going on now? Such a big class, it's hard to talk probably. That's the one I don't understand. I mean, I have an idea of what's happening up till there. The land to final line? Is it one you have trouble with? Yeah, that one's just like, if Yan Song had an attendant, would the attendant answer the teacher for him? I mean, I don't know how this works. Why would he say something like that? I get the feeling before when he says, leaving these two paths, I request the teacher not to ask, he's saying something like... Read it the other way. Make it easy on yourself and read it as being your attendant. Okay? The other guy is the head monk. He's not the head, he's not the attendant. The first guy who speaks is the head monk. This guy is maybe his attendant. He's an elder. An elder attendant. Sometimes then teachers have attendants that are quite old that have been there for a long time. So he could also hear it as, as your attendant teacher.

[23:56]

I can't, I have a hard time replying. I don't think I would understand that either. Would he have a harder time as his attendant, other than just having a hard time with one? Well, what are some of the reasons, if you were a attendant on somebody, and let's say you're an older person attending on another older person, what are some of the problems you would have in answering the question, do you think? You're going to die too. You're going to die too. You're going to die too. What else? It's not your role. It's not your role? It's a very emotional situation. It's an emotional situation? You don't want your words to be the last thing he hears. Pardon? You don't want your words to be the last thing he hears. Okay. Those are some possibilities of how it would be if you've been, you're quite close to this person and you're quite senior yourself.

[25:02]

Anything else? Why he would have a hard time answering? I didn't read that line as having a hard time answering. I understood it as, no one speaks for me. This is what I have to say. So that sent me back to look at that line, the other line, as an expression of his understanding. That's how I read it. You're hearing the final line as an expression of his understanding? No, I heard the final line as an expression of, I'm speaking for myself. Yes. So that made me think, emphasized the fact that the other one was an expression of his understanding. So the final line for you emphasized that I can't say at all was an expression of his understanding? I requested you not to ask. It's an expression of his understanding. Yeah, well, yes.

[26:04]

I request the teacher not to ask. The teacher says, when he says, I request the teacher not to ask, the teacher likes that answer. That was his understanding. I request, please don't ask. That is his understanding, definitely. Okay? The teacher likes that and says, yeah, good, tell me more. Okay? And Martha had some interpretation of what he meant when he expressed his understanding that way. I think every line here he's expressing his understanding. And the teacher likes the first thing he said and he likes the last thing he said. He likes it all. That's why he invites him over later for further discussion. That's the way I read it. This is all continual expression on both sides. They're both continually expressing the same thing that the teacher raised up in the first place. The thing that's being raised up is being now unfolded between them, all the way through, and now the teacher's going to invite him over after this to go into more detail in a smaller group.

[27:11]

So I agree. He's emphasizing, every line he's emphasizing, you can read this as every line is emphasizing his understanding more and more deeply, and the teacher is asking more questions in between to help him clearly express himself. more clearly come to a point and exhaust this mountain. Rather than just talk about it, moving its feet, they're actually getting this mountain to move its feet. Yes? Okay. Tell me if I'm... No, I won't tell you. Thumbs up. Okay, what I think might be going on there is that he's saying... I didn't get the feeling he was talking about dying when he said, have this thing to ask. I thought he was just talking about anything that had either this side or that side. And when... Yeah, that's right. And he just happens to be dying. Yeah, that he requested the teacher not to ask.

[28:16]

It had something to do with that he couldn't say anything about it or he would be on one side or the other. And maybe when he said... speak again he was trying to see if he could get him to say something I take my mind I will tell you I will tell you if the teacher says I have a question for you and then you say please don't ask or I don't want to talk because if I talk I'll go over to one side or the other if you say that then you're trying to avoid putting a head on top of your head so then he would have gone the other way the first guy got stale So he went over to putting his head on top of his head. The second guy didn't go over to the other side of trying to avoid making that mistake. Otherwise the teacher would have kicked him out too. He didn't try to avoid the error, the trouble you get into of talking. And he was not doing that. He was putting himself out there and if he made a mistake, fine, but he didn't because that wasn't the way he was talking.

[29:20]

He was not saying, I'm saying this or I'm saying that or I'm saying this and I'm not saying that. He wasn't doing that. The teacher felt that he wasn't, and so then wanted to draw more of the same unadulterated stuff out, what he called this undefiled conversation. Because if you try to avoid pitfalls of language by not talking, you just did fall into a pitfall, right? He didn't make that mistake. The first guy didn't try to avoid either. but he leaned a little bit over too much into what he was saying. So he made that mistake. So, no, he wasn't trying to avoid. It's true that if you do speak, you get in trouble, but only because of thinking that you said something or that you didn't say something. Otherwise, your speech is just, your speech and my speech is no different than the sound of the wind. Okay, now you understand.

[30:22]

Was there some other hand over here before yours? Wow, look at that. What else is down here? Yes, excuse me. The connection that I made with the the response, I have no attendant, was, the connection I made was with the next series, the next interchange about Host and Guest, and that him saying, I have no attendant, was sort of a reference to that same traditional way of talking about the absolute and the relative. Mm-hmm. and that it was essentially that he was sticking to his guns.

[31:28]

That is, he was saying he was refusing to respond in terms of a relative reality to the inquiry that the teacher was making. He was refusing to respond to the relative reality that the teacher... No, he was refusing to use the... Use the relative. Right. So you're proposing he did choose, he did speak relatively by refusing to use the relative. That's a good question. No. No. How could he avoid it if he tried to avoid it? He would have avoided it if he had refused to respond.

[32:31]

But instead, he brought back a response. But it was like, if he had refused to respond, he would have avoided what? He would have been avoiding responding in a row with it. So I phrased it inarticulately, but what I saw here is that he was... He was saying, I will not be pushed to one side or the other. In this case, I will not be pushed to answering a new relative. Okay. I will not be pushed to answering the relative. And you feel... And so... But do you feel that saying that I will not be pushed into answering the relative, do you feel that that's a relative position? I wasn't talking to you, man. Yeah.

[33:36]

I can't... But I feel like the... The failure is in my ability to paraphrase what's being said here. I think that there is a way to respond without falling into answering the relative and demonstrating in that response, you're not falling into answering the relative without that being the substance of your response. I think so too. And I think that's what he's doing. I just can't paraphrase it properly. You think he's speaking and not falling into the relative. Yes. But it's awfully tricky to not fall into the relative in the form of trying to avoid the relative as a way of not falling into the relative. And you think that maybe he did that?

[34:39]

He pulled that off? The usual way of not falling into the relative is to fall into the relative. That's the usual way to avoid falling into the relative. The safest way to avoid falling into the relative is to fall into the relative. Completely. What most people do is they fall into the relative half-heartedly. Therefore, they stay trapped in the relative until they somehow make a wholehearted response. The wholehearted response in the relative is the mountain wiggling their feet. Wholeheartedly embracing the relative, naturally the relative... jumps out of itself, like the fish, you know, the fish just goes, kapatsu, patsu! The fish totally, or Rumpelstiltskin jumping up and down the ground, going through the floor, you know, just to totally be a little nerd, a little munchkin or whatever, you go through the floor, or you fly out of the sky, you know.

[35:43]

So the usual way that, the safest way to prevent yourself from getting stuck in the relative is to plunge completely into the relative, plunge completely into words, get so involved in the words and all they mean that you go through the bottom of the floor of words, or you fly out of the ceiling of words. Now, to try to transcend avoiding the relative is another twist on the relative, which is fine. It's a special kind of relative called avoiding the relative, and using that as an opportunity You know, like using upside-down mountains to transcend mountains. I feel like what he's saying is, I can't talk about it like that now. I can't talk about it like what? I don't feel like, I think that what he's saying is, I can't talk about it like that. I can't talk about it in that way now. What way? The way the teacher's asking? Of avoiding those extremes? Yeah.

[36:46]

Is that like what Martha was saying? Well, yeah, I mean, I think it's consistent with what Mark was saying. It's sort of like what Galen was saying. Okay, good. I understand. Better. Let's see. Snowy Mountain? I think the teacher's question is, yes, why out of existence? What does out of existence mean? He pushes him until he has no... I think so too. That must be what this story is about. How? How is that so? All these stories are about that. Teachers and students pushing each other out of their selves.

[37:49]

You know, pushing the selves thoroughly. Because even if teacher's dying, he still doesn't give up to ask the same question for his students. He cares that much. Right. Even if it's a tired, old question, he keeps doing it. Yes. Yes. Good teacher. Yes. Yes. Go ahead. Well, I have no interpretation of this, but my sentiments... Well, I also thought that the reaction of the head monk way was right. The reaction of the young soul to me became after the escalation. No, no, you're not projecting.

[38:52]

This is one case where you're not projecting. When you feel utter desperation, you're not projecting anymore. Do you understand? Does everybody else understand besides me? No. So then it continues to me as kind of game, like the master insisting on, please go on, say something, and brings this desperation into boil. Yes. It kind of overwhelms desperation. Yes, right. And to me it all has to do with death. Because it is final, it is a separation. Whatever kind of separation it is, but it is one. Death is separation? What's life?

[39:53]

I think that desperation thing is good. That's a good line of walking down that road to more grace. It seems to me that the... I mean, I guess I react more to this thing about life than about death. But where death... Well, you're right, this is the case of living people. ...comes in is that, and he talks about this later on, he says, if you can separate the phrase, the gasp, which phrases are gasping, which are close, I'll impart to you the bowl and the row. And the one question I have is that what's very clear that people do when they're about to die is they start distributing. Uh-huh. They let go of whatever it is they have. And part of that process is figuring out to whom these possessions should go, of mind, of heart, of soul. Yes. So I think, to me, that's where the desperation comes in. I think he's really trying to see, is this person my disciple, my true disciple, my lineage?

[41:01]

Can we have a line-to-line transmission? Can I give you... My understanding of the rough and the bold. Right. So you're seeing the teacher as desperate. Yeah. You were seeing the student as desperate, right? You were seeing both as desperate? Were you? Yeah. I think that's right. I think they're both desperate. Yep. Desperados. I think Andy was next, if we're going in chronological order here. I agree that they're both desperate. Are you? Yeah. I was thinking that also, in a certain sense, Lhaka was saying, okay, this is the final hour. Who's ready to give up their enlightenment? And this is what really terrifies Yansong. Because Yansong has really enjoyed enlightenment a lot, the whole time.

[42:07]

And now he's getting the view of it, heading with it. Somebody's saying, okay, toss it off. Toss it off now. And that's what he's really desperate about. That's something he really, really loves to face. And yet he seems to be tossing it off better than the head monk. The head monk didn't toss it off very well at all. Right? Right. The head monk was just flat out smarty pants. Well, yeah, you're right. Except Yen Sun I don't think wants to face it. My sense is he doesn't really want to face it because if parting the bowl and the robe is only a symbolic act for saving beings... and who will embark on that completely, I think, in a sense. Who's going to save all beings now who completely dedicates themselves to that? I get the sense that Yansomu is saying, I can't do that, I'm not really there. Why is he willing to continue to interact with this dangerous character?

[43:15]

He'd like to. What? He'd like to. So he'd like to, but he's having some problems getting into this swing of things here. Yeah, maybe it does seem that way. I mean, he's doing very well, but he's also having some problems getting with it. And the teacher's happy with how well he's doing, but the teacher also seems to be asking for him to, you know, keep going now and just try to play this out further. Mark? I was kind of wishing we had the video of this. Yeah, it would be nice. I just thought of these words. I was feeling that Jan Sanzlitz, the aliveness of it is that he's saying, I'm here with you. And the head monk was all, you know, this, you know, this, this is the end number. And Don San said, I'm, I'm here with you. You know, you're dying. You know, don't ask, don't ask that. And that, I felt like he kept coming back each time and saying, I'm not, I'm not going to answer that question.

[44:21]

I'm, I'm here with you right now. I'm engaging with you. Yes. We're, we're, we're both here alive and you're, and you're dying. Right. And... But, you know, what do you say to Andy's thing about he's here? I agree. I think we're all saying he's willing to be here. He's willing to be here with the teacher. And yet there's some struggle. There's something difficult and miserable about this situation. The word miserable and miser, this is, what do you call it? This is the English word, right? This is not Chinese word. This is English word used here to translate miserable or difficult, rough. But miserable is related to miser. right? Miser comes from miserable, or miserable comes from miser. So there's something, he is willing to be in this difficult situation, but it is difficult. And it's difficult for a number of reasons. It's very dynamic, right? Yes. Yes.

[45:22]

Yes. My compassion is, I'm not giving up this attempt to teach right now. And Yang San is not quite getting that. He's trying to be kind of wishy-washy compassionate. Let's not talk about this. Which is a strong response to the question, but not quite enough. And Lopo is demanding I want more than that. It also feels like, I mean, what's being said here is Lopo is saying say, talk again. And Yang San says, I can't say at all. So he says, well, say some of it then. And what Yang San's response is, well, if I can't say it all by myself, I'd need help to just say some of it. I'd need help to just respond in the relative. And I don't have that help. And it feels like Lopo has pushed him to that understanding, but it's still not enough, and that's why he calls a man.

[46:29]

He's... I mean, that's why it feels like that whole lesson about... the Lopo spinal thing, about talking about the boat of compassion is not worth the pure water. You're not going to... I mean, he wants Yongsan to be compassionate by not setting out the wooden goose, but just jumping into this, and... And really being in the struggle regardless of difficult and emotional situation. So you see, you see, so you see Jansong that way. So the teacher sees some lot potential here, but there's some, some lack of being willing to play all the way with him. Do you see that Linda? Do you have your hand raised Linda? I wanted to hear a reading. We don't have a video, but we might have some desperate voices who might read it. Because every time you write, it's been very calm, and homeless people, homeless people. Oh, okay. Even if we heard it played out.

[47:31]

Sorry. Any desperate voices here? Any desperate voices? George, good. Anybody else? Any other desperate people? Call me back. Only one desperate person. Linda, how are you feeling? Fine, I'll do one more. George, why don't you turn around and face Linda. Who's going to be who here? Three. Okay, George, we have three. Okay, three. And how about Mark? You had your hand raised, didn't you, Mark? Yeah. Are you feeling desperate or revived? I'm feeling desperate. Okay, well, then you'd be good. Which part of that? I'd like you to be the head monk. And George, you be Lupu, okay? And Linda, you be the elder. Is that all right? Everybody got their scripts ready?

[48:32]

There's one more monk. When there's one more monk, Albert, you can be the other one. How's that? You want to be? Okay, Albert. It's in the wings here. Here we are in the Tang Dynasty, Chinese. Everything's the same as it was then, except you are there. I have one thing to ask you. If this is so, this is adding a head on top of your head. If this is not so, this is cutting off your head-seeking life. The Green Mountain is always moving its feet. You don't hang a lamp in broad daylight. At what time was this to make such a speech? Leaving these two past, I request the teacher not to ask. Not yet. Speak again. I can't say it all. I don't care if you can say it over and over.

[49:39]

I have no intent to answer the teacher. That evening, Luke recalled Elder Yansong to his room and said, Your answer today was most reasonable. So they eventually realized the same in my late teacher. Before the eyes, there are no things. That meaning is before the eyes. That is not something before the eyes, not near to the ears of the eyes. Which praises our guest? Which praises our host? If you can pick them out, I'll impart the robe and bowl to you. I don't understand. I don't understand. I don't understand. How miserable! How miserable! What is the teacher's meaning?

[50:41]

The boat of compassion is not rowed over pure waves. Over precipitous straits, it is wasted effort to set out a wooden group. Okay, now we're in the room. Now we're in the room and he says, before the eyes there are no things. Well, that character is also dharma. There's no dharmas. But dharma can mean things, you know, phenomenal. There's no things before the eyes. And then he says, the meaning is before the eyes.

[51:43]

But it's interesting that the word for meaning also means mind, this particular character for meaning. So you also say mind is before the eyes. There's no dharma before the eyes. Mind is before the eyes. Or the meaning is before the eyes. So now we're kind of into what looks like a kind of Vasubandhu-like teaching of that what you see before your eyes, you don't see things out there. What you see out there is things made into meanings or things converted into mind. We talked about that some last week, didn't we? We did, didn't we? In this class, didn't we? We ended up with it? So now his teacher gives his meditation instruction, which is very similar to the meditation instruction of case 32.

[52:51]

This is a kind of reversal of the usual way of thinking. If there aren't things out there, what's out there, there's not things before your eyes, what's out before your eyes is meanings, which you're attributing to what's out there. Like there's all this stuff out there, right? But I make sense of it, like into Kathy and Martha and Sam. Or in other words, I interpret what's out there as my mind, in terms of my mind. So either mind or meaning is out there before your eyes. You don't see things. You don't see things. You see mind. You see things converted into things that mean something to you. Or I convert you into things that have meaning to me. I don't see, I don't look out there and see the fact that I don't understand what you are. I don't encounter before me the inconceivability of all of you, of each of you.

[53:57]

I take each one of you and all of you and convert you into my mind, into a meaning. Because I don't want to not have a meaning. I don't want to stand before you without a meaning to defend myself. So I protect myself from you. I defend myself from you by interpreting you as my mind. By interpreting my mind as you. That's the teacher's first part of his former teacher's instruction, which he's now conveying to the elder. And then, He says, that is not something before your eyes, not in the reach of the eyes. Now, part of my question is, aside from do you understand the instruction, how is it that he brought up this instruction at this time in response to all that went before? Before we get into...

[55:02]

How does it make sense to you that this type of teaching, that he would bring up this type of teaching for his teacher, from his former teacher, they'd bring up this type of teaching, which looks like this kind of case 32 kind of teaching where you try to reverse the mind and understand that everything you see out there is yourself. Not that everything out there is yourself, but what you see is yourself. Why does he bring... What are the causes that lead him to bring up that type of teaching at this point for this monk? Russell? Well, I keep having a feeling of Yang Sang getting caught in his loyalty, getting caught in his love of his teacher and his sincere devotion to his teacher. How about the other way around? Do you see the teacher getting caught in his love for his students? Uh-huh. And I... When we get to this part, it's like, what's before his eyes?

[56:10]

Well, that is you. Uh-huh. So... Stop putting me out here. Uh-huh. And then, it actually leads into, I guess, an oath. So, yeah, so maybe... Maybe the teacher's saying, well, you're having kind of a hard time. Maybe if you remember this kind of teaching, it'll help you. This kind of difficulty that Andy's talking about, maybe this kind of teaching would help someone who has trouble like this. What do you think, Andy? Does that make sense? This kind of teaching would maybe take a little, give you some courage to deal with this? Give him a little push over the edge. Yeah. Now... If he tries to grab it... There won't be anything there. He would be more likely to be able to understand that. Yes. Mm-hmm. George? I was just going to say that that seemed like a very integral question to test Yonsei's enlightenment as to whether or not he was truly worthy of the root goal.

[57:17]

That's the way it seemed to me. Right. That's right. But my question is, There's many tests that you could give. How does this one relate to what went before? Una? Would you have your hand raised? Go ahead. It wasn't? That's okay. I was thinking that maybe he's trying to defend his teacher, that Jönsson is trying to defend his teacher from death in the sense that he doesn't really want the robe and bowl. That's what he says. I don't understand. Yeah. Didn't you say something like that last time? Roger? Yeah. Linda? I have kind of having this feeling that the elder is like not answering wrongly. And what Andy said was kind of like turned it a little bit for me in that...

[58:21]

They have like a parallel thing, like the teacher's dying, which is a difficult thing, and he's trying to pass on the responsibility. And he has an enlightened friend who is having difficulty accepting that. And so they have kind of this banter, dialogue going on, I think in the spirit that Martha is talking about, that's kind of how I feel it. And that to ask about the guest and host is just another way of like setting up a duality in a way. And the elder refuses to do that. You know, I think he... I think he's, like, exerting himself completely in the moment in all of his answers. And that, in fact, he is sure that he's going to get that golden bowl, you know, maybe whether he likes it or not.

[59:28]

And, like, for me to think about what's the guest and what's the host, it's like you can't say it either way. Because I could see, like, one way of saying that the line is host, because it's, like, creating meaning. But in another way, it's just a guest, too. And just like the teacher... Of what is it a guest? It's a guest of the teacher. You know, like, the teacher is, like, the real thing, or suchness or whatever is the real thing. And then the line... you know, is kind of a guest of that, and it responds and creates its thing. And yet at the same time, you could say that it's the host because what it's putting on. So you can't really answer either way. And so I think when the elder says, I can't say, you know, I really don't know, he's again saying, same thing.

[60:30]

You know, it seems to me like he's staying right in the center of all of it, and yet he's also expressing his humanness. And then the teacher says, you should understand. And where does that come from? Well, maybe he's just... Does the, you should understand come from the same place as I don't understand? Are we coming from the same place? I like that question. Say it again. The expression coming from hyamsam, I don't understand, does that come from the same place as the teacher's lupus, you should understand? I think so. And then when he says, you know, well, I don't, and then he says, how miserable, I don't think he's like... criticizing the elder. He's just saying, yeah, how miserable. You know, this is what it is.

[61:31]

It's like, this is what death is. This is what taking on this responsibility is. And this is like, you can't, you know, guess. You know, this is what it is, and we can't stick with that. I mean, it's really hard for us to stay with that. And I always need to know something. You know, I always want to grab on. Some other people do, too. I don't think he did, so I don't think he failed. You don't think he failed? No, I think he just... I don't think he did either. He was being totally real. Has anyone ever failed? If I answered the answers that the elder was saying, I don't think it would have the same meaning. It's like the monk who said, green mountains will walk on whatever. My mind can kind of get an idea to say this or something, but I don't really get it.

[62:31]

And I think that... I mean, it's like we did have it on video. If we were there, we could get a sense that he wasn't just saying words. You know, like, I don't understand. I mean, I just think that he... that the expression would have been, you know, some kind of complete exertion that was totally real and, you know, kind of like... Well, who... Have you ever seen anything not totally exert itself? No, I think so. Was it totally exerting itself or were you just not seeing it that way? Well, I want more. I want more from the situation. Right. or I expect more. Right. So I don't think it's a total exertion. Right. And so when we look at this, when we look at the story, I don't know this story, but most usually when we look at these stories on this paper, we want a videotape.

[63:38]

You know, because we don't, it's hard for us to, it's hard for us to look and see that every line here is totally exerting itself. So, we maybe we think like you said if we were there and we could see that maybe we'd see that he was totally exerting himself but we could also be right there in the tang dynasty you know bring ourselves back there and actually see these guys interacting and still maybe not see that lupu and yan song were totally exerting themselves breath by breath but uh The standard rap from Zen is that everything totally exerts itself. In the total exertion of things, things are liberated from themselves. If you see things as not totally exerting themselves, then they're trapped in themselves. But if I see things that way, then I'm not thoroughly studying either, because when I study thoroughly, then I see everything is totally exerting itself.

[64:39]

However, there is the dharma of, if there is the belief in the reality of the thought that this is not totally exerting itself, then the reality, the total exertion of that is misery. But that is total exertion. And in the total exertion of misery is liberation. So the misery of this story, if we can totally exert it, will be a great opportunity. Yes? Is this story about death and teaching, teaching about death? It's about death and teaching. Or teaching about death. Teaching about death, yes. It's about all that. Because I'm trying to get back to your original question. All stories are about death. You cannot have a story without death.

[65:42]

You can't have a beginning and an end without death. And the other monk in this story is holding back because of the death of the teacher? The other monk is totally exerting himself in the form of being stale. Which is misery. which is misery. And the teacher scolds him for that. But everything's been totally exerted in that. The monk is not sort of stale. He's precisely, thoroughly, honestly stale. And in the totality of his staleness, his staleness is liberated and has now become a national treasure. which we honor this evening by hearing again his life. But it's because his life, his staleness is enshrined in the realm of inconceivable total exertion that we read his story again.

[66:57]

And he was ensconced with this kind of practice. And and and Sonia has not spoken yet. Not all who are here. Well, two things. When you were speaking with Martha, I feel like the whole dialogue keeps mirroring itself. Yes. What I heard is, when he said, I can't say it all, is an inconceivable faith should not be defiled. And if I thought about it in that way, when he said, I have no attendant to answer, or I really don't understand, almost to me sounded like not raising any mind, not raising thoughts about the situation or the circumstance. Yes. And so that was his way of demonstrating, as other people were saying, again mirroring the teaching, his understanding.

[68:04]

For the teaching of my not falling into interpretation. Right. But when not falling into interpretation, when not even a single thought arises, is there any fault or not? Sometimes it reminds me of that phrase from an earlier koan, I don't know which one. Yeah, I just quoted it. It's called, not knowing is nearest. Yes. Mm-hmm. which is kind of like coming back to this original description of this coma and it's about the inconceivable. Yes. And it's not knowing, and for me, in a sense, how miserable is actually a compliment. Yes. When he says how miserable is actually a compliment, it ends the dialogue between the two with a compliment. Yeah. One way to read these stories is always, is that every line Every interaction is compliment, compliment, compliment, compliment. They're always complimenting each other, line by line.

[69:07]

Even scolding is compliment because he wouldn't scold someone that wasn't thoroughly scoldable, who wasn't like, you know, dead in the water, and, you know, really acting out that function. So, yes, there is... They are complimenting each other and they are congratulating each other. They are enjoying each other and this is a miserable situation. This is misery. They're not kidding. And their congratulate means to rejoice together. Conjoy. Conjoy. Well, slightest teaching disappeared in the... Pardon? The treasury of the teaching disappeared in the blind ass. That means that makes sense in that last dialogue. Yes, right. And another thing is, you know, what is it?

[70:13]

The ultimate, you know, the ultimate closeness is almost like enmity. When you get this close, it's almost like a fight or a struggle. Una? I was thinking if my friend were about to die, I would want to, my friend and teacher, I'd want to I'd want my partner not to die. And I'd want to preserve them in the way that I know. I think when he says, maybe when he says, I can't say at all, he's not talking about answering his question. Maybe he's talking about, I can't say all that you meant to me or something like that. And then a compliment to that would be, I don't care if you can say it all or not. And then when he says, these things about before the eyes there are no things.

[71:17]

Like I would be trying to preserve my friend and be desperate, want to. I wouldn't be seeing my friend in the way, I wouldn't be seeing things that they are. I would be seeing what I want to see and trying to grasp onto something. Well, that's very noble of you to confess. Michael? I keep thinking that Lutru is trying to help Yansong to die. It's his invitation. Getting close to the bewitching hour. Yes? Well, it seems like Lupo is fishing for a successor. Seems like that. Yeah, and the head monk, I think... may have been expecting to get that, and then he blew it. So now it's fallen to the end zone, and he's kind of maybe shocked and holding back.

[72:25]

There's someone to pass the bowl and rope on to, but someone to pass his mind to. That's the sense of it. That's right. I think that's happening. By the way, I kind of miss the pronunciation of his name. It would be loophole. Yeah, part of the dynamic here is this thing of successorship and fishing. Fishing is going on here. And... Okay, well, since it's getting close, I leave you with this meditation instruction. I don't know how well you're equipped to work with it, but there's a meditation instruction here to go with the dialogue.

[73:32]

So we have this meditation instruction is, before the eyes there are no things. It's the meaning or the mind that's supposed to be before your eyes. It is not something before your eyes, not in reach of eyes and ears, or ears and eyes. That's an instruction to help us understand this story, and other things too. So, I don't know if you can work on this in some way, to take that meditation instruction and use it. in your daily life and also use it to study this case. Next week I'd like to go on and look at the verse. The verse is short, a quite short verse, and maybe you can think about the verse too this week, and we can discuss meditation instruction next week and also discuss the verse, perhaps.

[74:36]

Okay. Can we say good night? Good night.

[74:50]

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