Yeah, there's plenty of room up here. I was listening to the radio day before yesterday. I was listening to the radio day before yesterday and I heard on the radio that... Is that okay, speaking like that? I was listening to the radio day before yesterday and I heard a kind of news flash that Dick Gregory's son had been shot.

[01:04]

Bill Cosby's son had been shot. Only son. Only son. And killed. And killed. And then there was live tape, footage, recording of the reporters saying, Mr. Cosby, [...] do you know anything? Do you know anything? how do you feel, or something like that. You know, all this hubbub and noise, all these reporters making all that noise. You hear all the shuffling, the equipment, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You can't hear anything except all this noise.

[02:06]

And then you just hear this, this voice. He says, he was my hero. And I was shocked to hear that this kid got killed.

[03:10]

But to tell you the truth, I was more touched by what Dick Gregory said. Bill Cosby. Bill Cosby said. All of us are going to get a rough treatment. which is not pleasant. All of us are going to suffer and our children are going to suffer too. I'm used to that. I'm used to that somewhat. But what really touches me is when someone stays tuned in the middle of this world of suffering, stays tuned to what's important. to remember in all this cruelty that there are wonderful beings that we care about and who are showing us, who are inspiring us, even our children, who are inspiring us to keep attentive to what really is important in the middle of all this,

[04:33]

And I just also, this just popped out of my book this morning. Somebody gave me this picture of a Buddha. See the Buddha? Isn't that a beautiful Buddha? Huh? Martha said, what's on his face? His face is all scarred up. All pockmarked. Because this Buddha was sitting in the middle of the atomic bomb in Hiroshima. So I thought, this is what it's about, isn't it? To stay present and patient and awake and kind and ardent in the middle of atomic bombs.

[05:43]

if that should happen. To remember our heroes, to remember the Buddha, to remember Bill Cosby's son. And also, this is the face of the vow, the vow to be that way, even if we sometimes fall on our face, even if sometimes this Buddha gets his head blown off, the vow to continue the way through all this suffering. In the beginning of our discussions here of the Four Noble Truths, I mentioned that Suzuki Roshi in all of Zen Mind, Beginner Mind, didn't say really much directly about the Four Noble Truths.

[08:22]

And Dogen Zenji in his huge works, just that one little paragraph or two on the Four Noble Truths. Nice paragraphs, but just a little bit about the Four Noble Truths. And, say again, Gyoshi said, I don't even study the Four Noble Truths. So, The reason I think why some Zen teachers don't present the Four Noble Truths is because they're concerned they don't want to distract people by a teaching which is supposed to focus people on the main point. And I myself, in studying the Four Noble Truths, like I passed out a sheet the other day, about 16 aspects of Four Noble Truths, and I've been studying these 16 aspects, and I think they're pretty interesting, but I felt, you know, as I think about it, I don't want to distract you and get you thinking too much, or thinking so much, that it undermines or overly taxes your mindfulness practice.

[09:43]

Now, there's some things, I guess, that are so important that maybe your mindfulness practice should be taxed. If someone's life depended on it, depended on you thinking a lot, then maybe you should think a lot. But when it comes to teachings, I have to be very careful. I'm trying to be very careful not to offer you teachings which are too complex, so complex that your mind comes up into your head a lot and you start trying to figure it all out and lose track of your mind. your feet on the ground and your breath and posture. So I'm not sure I'm going to be able to talk about those 16 aspects and for all of us to like together do this in a mindful way. So I have to take that into consideration. I am taking that into consideration. I don't want this to be like a, the Four Noble Truths to turn into like, the teaching of the Four Noble Truths to turn into, the teaching of the Four Noble Truths to turn into a burden, a metaphysical burden that distracts you from feeling the truth, from feeling the truth of suffering.

[11:12]

And directly, immediately, paying attention to it. I don't want what I say to intervene between you and your suffering when you can directly go to work on it, which I think most of you have something to work on. Most of you actually have a sense of the truth of suffering. So, most important is that you're actually practicing with that. For me, that's more important than I say something interesting about it. Now, if I say boring things about it, that probably wouldn't distract you. That would just maybe intensify your suffering. So maybe I should say some real boring things about the truth of suffering. Anybody know anything boring about suffering?

[12:19]

Oh, it's repetitive. That's pretty boring, isn't it? It happens over and over. That's pretty boring, isn't it? Pretty uninteresting. Not too distracting, right? The fact that it keeps coming back again and again, that's not distracting, is it? It's my suffering. Pardon? It's my suffering. It distracts you? Your suffering distracts you from your suffering? Well, you know, that's partly true. that suffering actually is something of a distraction from suffering. That's the problem. One of the problems with suffering is that suffering is actually hard to study. So, yeah, that's part of the bad thing about it, is that suffering is part of the... Suffering leads to distraction from what's happening. Suffering leads to the origins of suffering. So, suffering leads to the origins of suffering, and the origins of suffering lead to suffering. When you're suffering, you think, you know... I'm not just going to sit here and suffer, I'm going to make up a self and defend myself.

[13:22]

I'm going to make up a self that can do something about this. So then that self that you make up to defend against suffering becomes a source of further suffering, and then the suffering gets worse. They say, well, now I'm really going to make a self that's indestructible, that this suffering can't beat. And then, of course, it leaves. So actually, it leaves. Thanks, Lee. Now that you said that, though... Forget it. Someone also wanted to clarify, now the first kind of suffering is not called dukkha, it's the first type of dukkha in a sense, right? But it's actually not called dukkha, it's called dukkha-dukkhata. So it's not actually the first type of suffering in terms of the truth of suffering. is not negative sensation. It's not pain. Like pain of childbirth, drawing pains in the knees.

[14:24]

You have drawing pains when you're a kid? Hurts to grow, right? That's not the truth of suffering. That's just dukkha. Truth of suffering is having a problem with your suffering. Having a problem with your pain. It's bad enough to have a broken leg, but to complain about it. It's bad enough to have a headache, but to complain about it and try to blame somebody. That's dukkha-dukkhata. The Buddha, at the end of his life, definitely had pain. He was physically ill. He was in pain. But he just had dukkha. He didn't have dukkha-dukkhata. He wasn't complaining about it. He didn't think, well, isn't there some alternative to this karmic manifestation here? No. There's no sign of that. There's just a sign of dukkha, but not dukkha-dukkhata. So we need, without the ability to sense pain, it wouldn't be helpful to people if we couldn't do that, because we wouldn't be able to tell how hard to squeeze a pencil.

[15:35]

Right? Right? You wouldn't be able to tell, you know, how much pressure to put on things until some things, until you felt the pain, that that's too much pressure. You wouldn't be able to tell that the bath was too hot for your skin, right? Some people have that disease of lacking a sense of being able to tell temperature, so they have to be very careful when they take a bath, right? Because they can scald themselves. So we need, actually, the sense of pain in order to figure out Certain things like also sense of pain will tell us maybe sometimes when something's poisonous. So our sense of pain is very useful. That's not the first type of pain that's been spoken of in the truth of suffering. It's the resistance to and thinking of it as an alternative to this negative sensation. Thinking that there's an alternative to a particular negative sensation, that's what causes you to suffer. That's unnecessary, and that actually undermines our ability to take care of and make the proper response to a helpful negative sensation.

[16:42]

Is that clear? Negative sensation is something you can respond to well and helpfully. But if you're thinking in terms of alternatives rather than what do you do about this pain, what's the appropriate response, then you get into complaining and blaming rather than practicing the Buddha way. That's what I'm thinking about that, right? So, the end of suffering means the removal of this eternal driven suffering, the suffering that drives us, that captivates us. Is that clear? I mean, does that make sense? So I'm not saying that the negative sensation is taken away from the practitioner of the way, or the Buddha even. The Buddha has sensation. Our hearts have sensation.

[17:44]

They have positive, negative, and neutral sensation. But they stop there. Right? So, you know, the chain of causation of rebirth, As I mentioned before, number three, number, link number three to number seven are, link number three is, what is that? That's consciousness. Living beings have consciousness. Okay? Then there's name and form. Then there's, which means mind and body. Then there's the six sense doors. Then there's contact between them. Then there's feeling. Those five links, that five, from three to seven, those the Buddha has, those we have, the Buddha stops at feeling, doesn't go into craving. All right?

[18:46]

Is that clear? Going around the link, the Buddha comes around and, boom, stops at number seven, doesn't go to number eight, which is craving. Negative sensation, what does it have to do with negative sensation? Negative sensation, that's it. Positive sensation, positive sensation. Neutral sensation, neutral sensation. There's no craving for like, I wish the negative sensation would go away. I hate this negative sensation. No promotion, no wishing for more of a positive sensation. Just positive sensation, negative sensation, positive sensation, negative sensation. That's all. Neutral sensation, neutral sensation, neutral sensation, neutral sensation. This is getting... Neutral sensation, neutral sensation, neutral sensation. Anyway, that's it. Just sensation, [...] sensation. Willing to just experience, [...] experience. No craving for another... for another thing. That's it. That's the end of suffering, which is problem suffering.

[19:48]

Now, if you stop there, then there's no rebirth. No rebirth if you stop there. That stops the process of rebirth. So those of you who have a problem with rebirth, if you just stop there, you won't have to worry about rebirth anymore. You won't have to believe it or not believe it, or talk about it anymore, or hear about it anymore. And then... Another one which some people understand pretty well and others have trouble with is the next one, is the suffering of change. The suffering, the suffering of pleasure, actually. It's called Harinama Dukkha or Sukha Dukkha. And someone just told me that he had a very clear sense of that from the time he was a child. From the time he was a child, he loved to take Showers. He loved to take showers.

[20:55]

Very sensual guy. But as soon as he got in the shower, he started to feel sad because he knew he had to turn off eventually. So he was always suffering while he was taking these delicious showers. Always suffering. His mother would come in the shower, open the door, what are you crying about? I have to turn the shower off, don't I? Yes, you do. So he understood that second one. Not everybody does. But there it is. The suffering of right in the middle of experiencing really nice pleasure. We know it's going to end and we feel bad about that. And this person told me that after doing Tangario Tassahara, he went to the bath and took a shower. And I guess it was as pleasureful as usual. But he said he had no trouble turning it off. That's like a Buddha.

[22:00]

Just pleasure, water conservation. That's it. Time to turn the water off. Okay. No more sex today, fine. No third bowl, okay. Or, if not okay, how about, is that so? Is that so? Maybe not quite that chipper. Just, okay, I'll study this one. The end of pleasure. Pleasure's ending now, huh? Yep. Okay. Oh, by the way, now we're going to turn the pain off. Okay, is that so? Not okay. Is that so? Okay. Okay, here comes the pain. I'm not going to be exactly chipper about it, but I'll try to stay awake as the pain gets turned on.

[23:02]

Here it comes. Okay. Been waiting for this. I was telling Suki, you know, when we were doing the walking meditation, I, it was cold, I was cold, my body felt cold. And, you know what my body felt when it felt the cold? It was cold enough so my body actually felt the cold as pain. It wasn't just like, oh, cool breeze. Actually, it was actually, I didn't, and I didn't want to feel, I didn't plan on or want to feel cold to the extent of having the cold be like unpleasant. But actually it was unpleasant. And what could I assume? My body thought it was unpleasant. It wasn't like, okay. And I've actually also felt a negative sensation because I'm from Minnesota. And it wasn't that cold. And I felt bad about it. I didn't feel like it was right that my body should be feeling pain at this not very cold cold.

[24:05]

But it did. It felt pain at that minor cold. Wimpy, huh? Yeah. But I had to notice it was a negative, painful, slightly painful sensation of the cold against my skin. Sorry, that's what I felt. And I didn't like it. Double pain, double pain. Not liking it is not pain. Pain at the skin and also pain at being such a wimp. Being a wimp. pain at the actual sensation and pain at being affected by it, those two pains. And then I took my hands and put them inside my robes and felt the warmth, and it was pleasure, definite pleasure. And then I got a pain in my forehead from the hat I was wearing. But I told Suki, I had also a nice really joy at meditating on the pain.

[25:20]

I had a joy of being able to stay there and be there with that pain. And look at the tarmac or whatever, look at the ground, which was not that ugly, but sort of ugly. I didn't choose a pretty place to walk. I walked just on the cement or the tarmac over there. I was looking at the ground and I was feeling a joy at being able to meditate on the feeling. That it wasn't like, okay, you got negative sensation, so like check out. Just negative sensation and I was there. I wasn't running away from it or like, you know, going to a more attractive area or going indoors. I just was out there feeling a little bit of negative sensation. And feeling... feeling those feelings, and feeling some positive ones too. And then I also noticed, which is also kind of, it was pleasant to notice a very nice dovetailing and kind of intimate interface between positive and negative. They were highly integrated. I mean, they were going back and forth because I had my hands inside after a while, so I was getting the positive sensations from my hand and negative sensations from my face, going back and forth like that.

[26:26]

It was, that was nice too. So I wasn't suffering. I had none of those. I had not the first or the second type of suffering. I had a third kind of suffering. We'll talk about that later. There's a whole bunch of hands now. Yes? Isn't the wimp part the dukkha, dukkhata? Isn't that clinging or... No, the wimp... I think the wimp part is the third kind. That I have a concept of myself that I shouldn't be... that my body shouldn't be in pain from that. Like, maybe somebody else could be in pain from a minor cold like that, but I had an idea of myself which shouldn't be like that, so my sense of self was getting pushed on. So it was a third kind of pain. It wasn't actually a physical sensation of pain. It was a pain coming from my comparison of myself with what was happening. Would you call that moment upright? No, the uprightness is not the... The uprightness is...

[27:30]

That kind of pain comes from not being upright. That kind of pain comes from my self-clinging habit. But I was pretty upright as the consequences of my self-clinging manifested, as the consequences of my idea of myself being confronted with what was happening. and the difference there and the pain there between self and other, between the self I was and the self I thought I should be, that pain arising from my self-idea, I was present for that pain and that was a joy to be present for the pain that results from my idea of myself. So all of us who have any idea of ourself are in pain either as that idea is manifesting now or we're experiencing pain from previous moments of acting on that. Okay? Okay? But all of us can be like this little guy in the middle of whatever's manifesting. That's our potential, is to be that present and upright in the middle of the results of not being upright.

[28:38]

So, I think you're off. I have a question about, I always get stuck between the don't move and then what appears like good common sense, like putting your hands inside the robe. And I want to know if there's a difference between that kind of action to maybe not have pain that's like because your only son has been killed or because you have liver cancer. If there's a difference between that kind of pain that's really there's nothing you can do and the simple kind of movement like you can put your hands inside your robe and they'll be warmer. Well, I heard there's two questions. One is, is there a difference between putting your hands inside your robes to warm your hands and dealing with liver cancer? Or just leaving them out and thinking... And I would say that anything you do or leaving them out, is there a difference between putting them in and leaving them out? And is there a difference between those kinds of simple things and dealing with big things? Okay, so those are... So there's three questions.

[29:41]

Is it okay to take some simple action to, in a sense, avoid pain that seems like a common sense, you know, there's your robe and put your hands in it? Is that in opposition to not moving? That's good. Okay, so the basic question is, is some action, small or great, let's combine dealing with cancer and dealing with cold in your hands, is some action in response to pain, is any action in response to pain different in contradiction to not moving? Okay, and the answer is no. Nothing contradicts not moving. That's the thing about not moving. Absolutely nothing contradicts it. Look at this guy. Nothing contradicts this guy. The Buddha is not contradicted by any situation. The Buddha is present in all situations, no matter how, whether it's wholesome action, appropriate action, helpful, beneficial action, or unhelpful action.

[30:48]

Buddha is equally present in wholesome and unwholesome situations. However, there is a difference between wholesome and unwholesome situations. There is a difference between wholesome and unwholesome karma. So to put your hands inside your robes to warm them up, I would say, let's just have a little exercise here. How many people would rank that as wholesome karma? Okay, how many would rank it as unwholesome karma? How many would rank it as neutral karma? Yeah. I would say, I would rank it as neutral to wholesome. It didn't hurt anybody. It didn't hurt me. But, you know, it was also just kind of neutral. It would have been okay to leave him out, too. How about leaving him out? How many people would rank that as wholesome? Leaving him out in the cold? Is it, like, really cold? It was yesterday, right? Wasn't it yesterday? If you get chillblains easily... For me, anyway, I have a good seat to rent.

[31:51]

I would say it would have been wholesome to leave them out, too. It would have been fine to leave them out. I could have done something wholesome with that very nicely, so at least I can tell you that I think it would have been wholesome to leave them out, too. That's why I think putting them in was kind of neutral. Now, if they were so cold that they were going to get chillblains, then I think... And nobody needed me to have my hands out there to fix their car or something. then I would say that it would be unwholesome to leave them out in the car because they would damage them and it would make me harder for them to sit in Zaza and in Tassajara. So I think it would be less good to have them out in the car too long, right? So wholesome things are things that are beneficial, that help, that promote life and protect life and make it better, promote your opportunity to practice. That's wholesome things. Unwholesome things hurt you or hurt others and undermine your ability to practice. So there's a difference. But not moving is the way you are, in the most helpful way you are, your best posture, your best stance, your best presence in wholesome, unwholesome and neutral karmic situations.

[32:58]

The karmic thing is going on all the time. Activity is happening all the time. And either it's enlightened activity or karmic activity. And if it's a karmic activity, being upright and not moving in the middle of that is the realization of Buddha. And if it's enlightened activity, well, it's already realizing Buddha. There's no karma. Once you've completely let go of your idea, renounced your idea of self-existence, independent self-existence, then your action is coming from that renunciation and that liberation. It's not any longer karma. It's not karma in the sense of volitional action, which is evolving you any place, up or down. It's just dependent co-arising. It's just all things coming forth and supporting you to act, which is also not moving. So the not moving in the middle of karma is like the not moving... which is the activity you have after waking.

[33:59]

But not moving is not in contradiction to, you know, taking care of your body or not taking care of your body. However, if you don't take care of your body in a skillful way, that lack of care of your body will tend to involve you in such distractions, you know, that it will be hard for you to even appreciate the practice of not moving. So Buddha looked out and saw all beings when he was awake and he said, basically he said, all beings are not moving. Everybody is exactly who they are and that is Buddha. That's what Buddha saw. But because they're so busy dealing with the effects of their past karma, mostly they can't notice it. So by practicing wholesome karma, the situation calms down enough so that you can appreciate what you are. Like that again, that quote that we started out with. Don't move, just die.

[35:02]

And then the end of the quote is, just be yourself. No, just be true to yourself and express yourself fully. So from that position of not moving and dying, you're true to yourself and you express yourself fully. And that's not karma. But you may be in a karmic situation where you're generating karma and you're experiencing the results of karma. And the results of karma may be coming down really heavily, but you may have the skill to deal with it. If you don't, then it's going to be hard for you to appreciate that you're not moving. If you do, you can appreciate that you're not moving. And if you don't, your response to this horrendous karmic result coming at you is to generate positive karma. And the situation will calm down gradually. I think you were next. Yes, Robin asked my question. Okay. And then maybe Tay and then Elena. Maybe the same.

[36:05]

Maybe the same. Yes. In the example with Bill Crosby, if there's something one can do to minimize violence, is that not in faith? If someone can do something to minimize violence, is that not moving? I would say that what really does minimize violence, that is not moving. That's what non-moving is about, is to minimize violence, yes. Now, if you have died, if you've given up your sense of self, free of your sense of self, then you can work to minimize violence and promote peace and have it not be karma. If you still have any idea of self, then your work to promote peace will still be karmic.

[37:07]

So even though you're working to promote peace and even being quite successful, you're accumulating karma for yourself. But only because you're holding to this idea of self. If you drop the idea of self, you do the same work and have no karmic accumulation. So, working for peace, carrying a self, is an unnecessary burden which undermines your activity. You can still be somewhat helpful, or even greatly helpful. Some people are very helpful while carrying their sense of self. But if they would drop that, then their activity would not be karmic, and they would be doing themselves a service while at the same time that they're doing others a service. And they wouldn't be accumulating things which might later interfere with them doing their peace work. So, but if you're doing it not for yourself, as far as you know, you know? If you're really doing it not for yourself, then you've dropped yourself. So then there's no karma. It's just beneficial action. Beneficial action does not have to be karmic. Not all action is karmic.

[38:11]

It's intentional, goal-oriented, self-other kind of activity that's karmic. Okay, so how do you really know? How do you know? I mean, I can say I'm like... Ask me. How do I really know? You said, how do you really know? I said, ask me. Okay. How do you really know what? I mean, I can... Okay, I... How do you really know? If you're doing it just for the reasons you think you are. Well, she said, how do you know if you're doing it for the reasons that you think you are? Now, if you're doing it for evil reasons, for selfish reasons, well, let me say that, okay? If you're doing it for selfish reasons, you can know you're doing it for selfish reasons, which is a lot of cases. So you can know all those. That's possible. If you're doing it for an unselfish reason, you can't know that. You can't know if you're acting unselfishly, that you're acting unselfishly.

[39:19]

Basically, it's pretty much impossible, except by some kind of, like, the world sort of writing on the sky, guess what you're doing. But if you're doing things selflessly, you don't need to know it. The point is you're happy and you're doing what you want to do. So would you rather know that you're doing right or do right? A lot of people would rather know they're doing right than do right, so that's what they choose. They choose to know they're doing right, which means self-righteous, means causing trouble. A lot of the time. Not always, but... Just like it says in, what is it, the Self-Fulfilling Samadhi, All this does not appear to consciousness. All this incredible beneficial action is not something like the Buddha is sitting there thinking, boy, it's amazing. I'm saving these people in six realms simultaneously. The mountains and rivers are being saved and they're coming back and saving me. They're not thinking that. This is happening. You can't think that. I mean, you can't keep up with the actual process of universal salvation. But you can join it.

[40:19]

This kind of realization can't be the object of your consciousness. That's like the practice and the realization, looking at each other, that one. No. That's not possible. Or like I was saying to someone today, when you're off balance, you can know you're off balance. You can know you're selfish. But when you're balanced, you cannot know you're balanced. Have you ever been really balanced? Especially very precariously balanced. You know, like the first time you rode a bicycle on a tightrope carrying six monkeys. You just got balanced there for a second, you know? You got balanced and there you were, balanced. And then you thought, I'm balanced, and you fall off. You can see that the thought you're balanced, when you're really precariously balanced, in the moment, if the thought, I'm balanced, knocks you off, you fall off. You can't afford even the thought, I'm balanced, when you're balanced. Even a thought unbalanced throws you off. Or like it says in the beginning, in the introduction to Case 8 of the Book of Serenity, even holding as much as the word A in your mind, you go to hell as fast as an arrow shot.

[41:26]

You can't walk around thinking, I'm a good bodhisattva. You can't afford to carry that stuff around when you're doing bodhisattvic work. You just got to do the work. Deal with the situation. Now, it's not such a terrible thing to think, oh, I'm a bodhisattva. But when you're really in the work, when you're really totally engaged, then you can notice how that's a very expensive thought. So there's a whole bunch of hands. I don't know, Mick and... Oh, Elena was next. Suppose you have an itch in your ear. Yes. In the zendo? In the zendo. That happens sometimes. No. Or a fly. No. If you're not moving, it doesn't matter whether you scratch or not scratch? Well, not necessarily. It might matter to your neighbor. So, from your point of view, if you're sitting in the jungle and there's a fly in your ear, And you know what it means to not move.

[42:29]

You can move your hand up through various world systems, you know, over in the neighborhood of your ears and wave at the fly. And it's okay, it's fine. The fly will say, oh, Buddha's waving to me, how nice. And for you, it doesn't matter. But to the fly it matters because the fly is getting waved at by your hand. Okay? And if you could kill the fly without moving, it wouldn't matter to you. But it matters to the fly. So, when you move into Zendo, it may not matter to you. And in fact, when people move into Zendo in a way that really is best for them, Okay? Sometimes people ask me, should I move in such and such a situation in Zendo? And I say, yeah, I think it's better if you move. It's unwholesome if you don't move in this time. If you keep sitting that way, you're going to get sciatica. So adjust your posture when you get that sensation. I move. When I get a certain pain in my butt, I move. I adjust my posture. Because I've learned that that pain leads to major nerve damage in just a few minutes if I don't move.

[43:35]

So I move. But still, because there's other people in Zendo, I move in the sneaky spirit of not moving. So nobody ever saw me move, did they? So when I move, I move very slowly. I move in the spirit of not moving when I move. So if I'm going to scratch, if I'm going to scratch a scratch, it would take me a long time to scratch it. I wouldn't just go... Because that's sort of like not... I don't feel that's respectful of the spirit of not moving in the Zendo. So I move very slowly. By the time I even... break my mudra, the things change probably. But anyway, if I kept itching all that time while I carefully, slowly lifted my arm up, you know, without anybody noticing, you know, it would take a long time to get up there to scratch. So, in fact, I don't too often scratch during formal periods of meditation. I do scratch during meals and during other people's talks and my talks. During my talks I scratch a lot. So, the question is, is it beneficial?

[44:38]

Wholesome karma, unwholesome karma does matter, maybe not to you, but to other people. So therefore it does matter to you because not moving is the spirit of benefiting others. If you could practice not moving without the bodhisattva vow, it wouldn't be Buddha. It would be Arhat. which is pretty darn good. So, I just want to say one thing, and that is, the first time it ever dawned on me that I didn't move, I really got a sense of, I'm not moving, was when I was moving. I was moving, I was offering incense in the Kaisando and City Center. My hand was going through the air with the incense to put it in the bowl, and I realized I wasn't moving. It was the first time I got a sense, I'm not moving. Before that I was trying to sit still.

[45:41]

But it wasn't like I was, obviously I wasn't doing it. It's just that even though I was not moving, there was no motion, there was no moving in that action. You feel more confidence. So you can practice not moving while scratching your face if it doesn't bother the other people. But if it bothers the other people, would you really move? Would that really be the spirit? I don't know. You have to check it out. So then I don't know who was next. Maybe Nick. And then saw Nick. This notion of wholesome and unwholesome karma I find very interesting and provocative. In your example of walking kini, or walking meditation outside the other day, I had a similar experience. I went inside and I had a lovely time.

[46:42]

Although for a moment I felt like a wimp and I was disappointed that I was cold. Let's start a wimp's club, shall we? Anyway, my question is, my observation is that Intention. I'm thinking that intention has something to do with what we would call the karma that is generated in the situation. Well, you're right. It is the definition of karma. Intention is the definition of karma. Karma is all about intention. If you do something that's not intentional, it's not karma. So your intention is the thing that determines the quality of the karma. So all karma starts with mental intention. Mind intention. If the mind intention is a wholesome, beneficial direction, even if you fall on your face, it's still positive karma. It's not as skillful, maybe, as if you did it in such a way that not only did you intend it to be beneficial, but you actually did it in such a way that it was.

[47:50]

You said wholesome direction? Wholesome direction. Our intention. Like, if you look at the state of consciousness, right, the various things that are in the state of consciousness, like confusion or not, faith or not, diligence or not, anger or not, concentration or not, all the different elements in this moment of consciousness, take a snapshot of a moment of consciousness, If you tell me all the different elements in a moment of consciousness and the background of the person and their various tendencies and obsessions and dispositions, then you can see the consciousness has a certain shape and you can say, this consciousness looks like it's heading in a negative, harmful direction. This consciousness looks like it's heading in a positive, wholesome, beneficial direction. So it's a tendency of your thought, which is your volition. That is the definition of the karma at that moment. You had a suspicion in your example, if I heard you right, that putting your hands in your robe might be a little unwholesome, right?

[48:51]

Oh, yeah. A shadow of that thought, right. How come? Because I have a thought, one of my patterns of thought is that it's good... One of the ways for me to develop circulation in my hands... to circulate energy through my hands, is to confront it with cold, to see how it... Sometimes it's easier to feel the flow of energy through the hands if it's against cold than if it's against warm, because then if your hands warm up, you can feel like you've brought your awareness into your fingers. So sometimes, particularly at Tal Sahara, I practice with that, where, you know, is can I bring my hands, my energy into my mudra? So I hold my wrist in different ways to see if that makes the flow of energy warm the fingers up. So to some extent, I think it's a good practice opportunity to confront the cold. So that was your intention. In other words, it was part of your intention. Yeah, it's part of my general thing of working with cold in my body. But, you know, I also just did that, which I didn't feel that bad about it, actually. It was kind of nice. And it also offered the opportunity...

[49:52]

to continuous meditation on feeling, between the negative sensation and the positive sensation. So I think my intention, like yours, was basically a wholesome intention to do the exercise in a skillful way and learn something about walking meditation. There's one other thing I did which I also mentioned to Suki but I didn't mention to you, which I thought was worth mentioning, and that was, I was walking with these clogs, you know, and I was walking at first like somewhat of a normal walking rate. But then I didn't like, it was, I had negative sensation, but also part of my negative sensation was the clog, the noise of the clog and the clunkiness of the clogs was harder for me to like feel quiet. So I slowed down and did Keating style of walking. And then, and then the big clunky shoes didn't matter. And I, I quieted down. I could be more aware of my feelings when I walked more slowly than I, Then I grew it faster. Now sometimes you have to walk fast, and sometimes it's good to challenge yourself to see if you can stay in touch with your feelings while you're moving fast.

[50:54]

But I was having trouble staying in touch with my feelings while I was moving fast, other than feeling negative. And so I settled into this quiet, more slower way of doing it. So I adjusted my speed also to sort of, with the intention of... making it easier, in some ways, to fall into feelings. I think that was a positive intention. It was successful. It didn't hurt anybody. Yes? Can I say one more thing? Sure. Like, for me, I felt a negative sensation when I was experiencing the cold. And I'm used to experiencing negative sensations and then reverting. Yes. Now, in this case, I kind of did the same thing. Well, I kind of didn't do the same thing because... I respected, in a way, I think, the information that was contained in that negative sensation. Right. And so I could say I averted, but I averted from the original intention.

[52:00]

But I felt I did it... I mean, my test, this is what I'm saying, my test is when I was in the new situation, having gone away from the original one, I had no regrets. I didn't even think about it. I said, well, here I am now, and this is excellent, or whatever. So sometimes, I'm thinking recently, there's a test sometimes. Did I make the wrong move here? And part of it, for me anyway, feels like the presence or absence of this thing, like regret. Yeah, right. Well, karma can be tested. quite simply, by effects. Wholesome karma leads to beneficial effects and wholesome karma leads to negative effects. That you can see. Yeah, that's samsara. You can see samsara. It's the world of cause and effect. You can check it out. You can learn about wholesome and wholesome karma.

[53:03]

That's learning to be skillful. So, another example. Basically, I think I've told you this before, but the word, the typical word used in Buddhism for wholesome is kushala. And the typical word used for unwholesome is akushala. But akushala literally means, in Buddhism, means skillful. Akushala means skillful. And akushala means unskillful. Okay? So, skillful means skillful at doing what's beneficial. Unskillful means, well, unskillful at doing what's beneficial. In other words, doing what's unbeneficial. But it's interesting that the root of the word akushala is kusa, which is the type of grass that the Buddha was given. When the Buddha was about to sit under the bow tree, this person gave him kusa grass to make a little meditation cushion at the enlightenment seat.

[54:05]

So after that, he taught his monks, when you make meditation seats, use kusa grass. I did. Worked for me. Use kusa grass and sit under those pepala trees. Probably it'll work for you, too. So monks generally use kusa grass, and kusa grass is like pompous grass, it has a sharp edge. You can get sort of like grass burns from it, big long thing, and if you're cropping it to make your meditation cushion, if you're not careful, you can get pretty good cuts on your hands. So they developed a skill in the monks of collecting the kusa grass in such a way that they didn't, you know, didn't get cut up too badly. Of course, part of the process is trial and error, and you get cut a few times to learn the right way to do it. So, handling dangerous things, things that you can make mistakes with, like your emotions and so on, your perceptions, are dangerous. Learning how to handle them is to develop skill. So, negative sensations are potentially dangerous.

[55:07]

If you don't handle them properly, you can get hurt. Handling them well is how you make your meditation seat. So you can test this by whether you get cut or not by the way you handle things. That's karma. But through all this experimentation with action and attempting and admitting, hopefully admitting, hopefully you can spot, I am operating at a karmic level. I, that's the attention thing, I also watch the attention thing, watching the attention to take a step. I am operating to some extent at the level of I am here and I am walking and I am intending to take a step. That's karma. I'm living in the karmic world. There's a karmic being here. But the not moving or the being upright is the presence and the awareness and the mindfulness in the middle of that karmic activity. That's the through line, is that presence. That never moves, hopefully. I mean, not hopefully, it never moves.

[56:07]

It never moves, it's always there, that presence is always there no matter through wholesome or unwholesome karma. And again, wholesome karma is good because wholesome karma tends to promote the opportunity to appreciate and deepen your confidence in that presence which is there through all your karmic activity until finally the presence is so full and your awareness is so full that you see the illusoriness of the basis of karmic activity, namely the self that does things. Then there's no more karma. Then there's just presence in the middle of activity which is not karmic. So, so many hands. So many hands. But I think you already answered, so you're next, I think. Okay. I think it might be still what Mick is saying, but to use slightly different words. Doing good. Me doing something good. Right, you doing good. That's wholesome karma. That's skillful. But, okay, well, hopefully it's skillful.

[57:08]

That's by definition. What Buddha meant by good was skillful. Was skillful, okay. Skillful means you're skillfully acting to realize benefit. Right. But a little earlier you implied, but doing good is a thought. This is good. I am doing something good as opposed to doing something that's not good. Right. And the basic definition of karma is thought. Karma is thought. thought to do something good is wholesome karma. The thought of I want to do something good, that's the basic definition of a wholesome act, wholesome karma. And then for the body and voice to then enact that thought that I will do a good thing, then that's furthering physical and vocal karma, wholesome karma. Okay, so I want to do something good. Now, I want to do it because it's good.

[58:09]

It's not necessarily, given a million other choices, what I would choose to do. But looking at the situation, it seems that the most benefit would come from doing an act that I'm not in love with. Yes. That's still okay? Okay. Yes. It's still wholesome karma to do something that you think is good and beneficial but that you don't like to do. Like brushing your teeth. Right. That's good. A lot of people don't like to brush their teeth but they think, I think it really is a good thing and other people say, yes, I really like it when you do that. Or, you know, using mouthwash. You may not like to do that either but other people may really like you to do it and you know it's beneficial. So, doing wholesome acts does not mean that it's pleasant to do them. like to reach into some cold place to do something that would be beneficial. It might be unpleasantly cold, but it might be quite beneficial. And you know, and you think it's good, and you want to do good, and you chew it. That's wholesome karma.

[59:11]

And one of the things which she brought up was, there's many things you can do, okay, and you look and think, I think this would be most beneficial. It's also possible to see many things to do and say, I think this is most beneficial, but this is somewhat beneficial. To do something somewhat beneficial is still wholesome karma, even if it's not the most beneficial. But doing the most beneficial thing is more wholesome karma than doing the less beneficial thing. Like being completely generous is better than being somewhat generous on the karmic scale. You can intensify the karma, wholesomely or unwholesomely, again, to hurt someone and be sorry about it isn't as bad as to hurt someone and be glad that you did it. Or to help somebody and be glad that you did it is better than to help somebody and regret it. So the help in both cases is wholesome, but you can intensify the wholesomeness by being really happy that you did the wholesomeness and

[60:22]

intensify the unwholesomeness by being happy with the unwholesomeness. Even though the basic act is wholesome in one place, unwholesome in another. So I don't know who's next, maybe, geez, oh God. See, people are interested in karma, that's good. Let's take, Jim? Go ahead. This is a short question, but about kusha. Mahakushalaya. Mahakushalaya means good fortune. Great good fortune to you. Mahakushalaya. Great good fortune to you. Hail. Great good fortune to you. Good. That's what it means. Back to the hands in the room. Back to the hands in the robe? I'll point to both of you and see which one went first. I'm making a joke.

[61:25]

Hands in the robe. Hands are outside the robe and they're cold. In a sense, is there a way of just... You don't even identify with these are my hands and I'm going to make them the object of this kind of complex intellectual stuff. It's just the hands are cold, they go in the robe. I mean, it's almost like... I mean, you're walking along the beach with your grandson and a cold wind comes up, you put his hat on. Yeah, that's more like Buddha. The hands just go inside and outside the robe without any thought of my hands or just spontaneous activity that's more like Buddha. And it's always wholesome. And not just wholesome, but liberated. that the Buddha's activity is not just wholesome, but it's wholesomeness, or it's not just skillful, it's skillfulness in means of liberation. So not only is it helpful when you put your hand inside or outside the robe, when it's acting in a selfless way, but your grandson is liberated from all suffering at the same time. You like that? Since you pointed to both of us, and my question is an extension of yours, which is, so you do this...

[62:33]

Unselfish, action which is wholesome. Yes. But after you do it, then there is the recognition, this is wholesome. Not necessarily. But let's say that there was. There could be, yes. There could be. Yes. Let's say, I mean, I work with geriatrics and some people are very sick. Yes. And I approach them and they don't want to do whatever and I come and I talk to them and something happens, you know, and I'm not aware that I'm doing anything wholesome or whatever, but afterwards there's this incredible sense inside of me, and I don't know if it's just that I'm receiving their appreciation for what I do or what I do. Yeah, so then it makes you think, well, maybe that was wholesome, because it looks like there was some relationship there. It might not be, you can't be sure, but it might be something from a past life that's manifesting now. But it makes you think maybe that was wholesome. Some wholesome acts come to quite soon manifest positive result.

[63:38]

Most things, most of our states, most of our states of pain and pleasure are from previous existences, from past lives. But that's, you know, most means like 90% leaves 10%, and 10%, I'm not saying 90%, but 10% is like zillions of experiences per day, which might be coming from not just the present experience, but from today. So you can do something and immediately feel the results, right? Or, you know, five minutes later. Like this thing we did, we went over and we did a vigil. It wasn't a protest. We did a vigil in the rain at San Quentin, the last assassination, I mean the last execution. We stood out in the rain, chanting, getting soaked, our sutras getting wet, making a few comments about what we intended to do there and so on and so forth. But we're basically just a little huddled mass of wet Zen students there, you know, getting buffeted by the rain and wind. And some people expressed a feeling of futility, because they hope, you know, futility in terms of like stopping the execution.

[64:47]

And some other people didn't really think of it like a futile or not futile, they just went out there to express themselves. That was more my spirit, I didn't know if that was going to do anything, but I just thought it would be good for us to come and just all together say, we don't think it's good to kill people. That's basically our message. Okay? Okay? And people, that's our message, in the rain and all that. So we walk away, but as we walked away, and even hearing this person talking in my ear about how futile it was, and then she drifts away, I felt this tremendous feeling of love. Not so much coming from me or to me, but just everywhere. I felt tremendous love all over the place. And I associated it with the event. somehow. It was so tangible that we had created a sense of peacefulness and appreciation for life and love. It just lasted for hours and hours and hours. We came back to Green Gulf, you can feel it here. So it seemed like that was a positive, a wholesome act.

[65:52]

To some extent, we did that. We went there, we did that, I did that, they did that, we did that, and there seemed to be an immediate positive result, not... Not maybe stopping the execution, but generating love in this world and appreciation. And not hate, not blaming, not criticizing, but just a general feeling of appreciation. And I went back over to, you know, well, this is nice, you know, you go to a bookstore afterwards, right? And there's a bunch of Zen students in the bookstore. And the feeling was really buoyant and friendly and energetic. So, it seemed to be a wholesome thing to do. It didn't seem to be draining or distracting. So you can sometimes tell right away. Yes. About that San Quentin vigil, Melody, who works at San Quentin, said that the guards there are aware when there's a vigil outside, and some of them are not happy with the death penalty, and it helps them to know that we're there.

[66:54]

So that's something, you know, we might not even know that when we're there. Right, right. but it does make a difference. Right. But I also have a question. Yes. Last time you said, we have to be dedicated to wholesome karma, but we have to be more dedicated to studying wholesome karma. Yes. How do you study wholesome karma? Is that what we're doing now? Like this. Being upright and not moving is the way you study. Just being mindful in 365 degrees. I guess 360, right? 365 days a year, 365 degrees. Being globally mindful, being ready and present is the way you study karma. You don't like, okay, we're going to go, got the karma study group, let's go get the karma. You don't like to focus on some of your idea of karma, you're just present and karma comes and demonstrates itself to you, moment by moment. This little person who thinks she can do things comes and exhibits herself to you and shows you, okay, now I'm going to do this and now I'm going to do that.

[67:58]

So not studying karma is what liberates you from karma. And wholesome karma promotes the opportunities to study karma. So wholesome karma is very important. So a big part of our practice is to generate wholesome karma. Wholesome karma also attracts beings to come to practice. Having a nice garden attracts people from all over the Bay Area to come down and be at Green Gulch and practice studying their karma. If this place is too much of a wreck, you know, people will think, wow, they got this nice practice there, but it's such a mess, it's very embarrassing, please jump on you and stuff, it's really tough to study there, you know. So some Zen teachers do it that way. In that case, the students have to have tremendous resolve to study to get into the gate. It's so obnoxious. So they must really want to study to get in. Sometimes it's good to make a wholesome environment, a pleasant environment, to attract people. And then they can practice studying the karma, the results of wholesome karma that they can see, and studying their karma, studying their karma.

[69:06]

So studying the karma is what liberates you from karma, but wholesome karma is what promotes the study of karma. Does that make sense? Yes. Is anybody ahead of Lee? Sorry. No, it's okay. I just wanted to make sure, because you already had one. So I just wanted to know if anybody was ahead of you. Go ahead. Okay, I can't see. People's lives are a mixture of good and bad. Pardon? I didn't hear the beginning. It says people's lives are usually not just strictly bad or good in the conventional sense. They're mixtures of that. Can I say something? People's lives are usually a mixture of creating wholesome karma and unwholesome karma, good karma or bad karma, plus also experiencing the results of wholesome karma and experiencing the results of unwholesome karma. Both those kind of mixtures of generating both kinds of karma and experience both kinds of results. That's most of our lives. Yes. So, it seems to me hard to see, like, I'm walking out the door, somebody steps on my toe.

[70:11]

Yes. I'm very angry, and I walk down the path, and there's a newt strolling along. I step on the newt, and I didn't even see it. Yes. I was so hurt and upset about it. Right. I'm walking back, though, on the same path, and I see it. Wow, I press this newt. Yes. And I'm filled with remorse. Yes. Instantly. Yes. I decide to... come to Dharma classes for the rest of my life. Yes. So is that good, you know, wholesome karma, unwholesome? It seems like a mixture of that. The getting angry at the first step on your toe, I would say that's unskillful response. Okay? Stepping on the newt but not noticing it, as far as evolution, spiritual evolution, the actual, the harm to the animal, It doesn't count against you, but your lack of mindfulness does. So your lack of, your unmindful walking, that's unwholesome. So that's somewhat, not real intense, but sometimes not very intense lack of mindfulness can cause major examples.

[71:14]

Like we had a person here who was walking down this road here, you know, and she reached down in her car to pick something up off the floor and had a head-on collision with somebody right here at Green Gulch. you know? So it doesn't seem like that evil a thing to reach down to pick something up, but in fact, not paying attention can cause major damage. But evolutionary-wise, although it causes physical damage, it doesn't cause as much damage as, like, to intentionally try to run into somebody. So, she didn't intentionally get in an accident. In that case, she got hurt. Stepping on a newt, you couldn't step on a snake, right? So the snake bites you and gives you poisonous bite. So, but your karma in that case was not evolutionary type, right? Because it wasn't karma. It wasn't really karma in the evolutionary, towards evolutionary liberation from suffering. It was just an unwholesome thing. The results of which, every step that you take without mindfulness could be a snake. The snake being there or not isn't really the issue.

[72:16]

And then feeling remorse is a wholesome response. Being ashamed of unwholesomeness is a wholesome response, and then that would promote your practice. So there's wholesome, unwholesome, unwholesome walking, stepping on the newt was not really unwholesome. It was a result of your unwholesomeness rather than you didn't mean to, and the remorse was wholesome. So we have this mixture, right? So you should be studying these things. I think Scott, yeah. Yeah. When you started out, you were talking about the different things, just dukkha and then dukkha vikara, and you were saying that the Buddha still feels pain, it's just that he's not trying to get rid of it. He's not trying to figure out an alternative to it. Does that distinction apply to all three levels of suffering? So that the Buddha would still feel the pain of change, but just that he's not trying to get away from it? So if Buddha lost a son or a daughter, do you feel... Well, the second kind of... No.

[73:22]

The first kind is you feel pain and you feel... Basically, it's no alternative, right? Not moving. That would be the best. Feel pain, no alternative in that moment. Feel pleasure, no alternative. You wouldn't feel the second kind of suffering then. This thing about you'd be experiencing pleasure but you wouldn't be worried about the fact that it's going to end. You'd just be inundated for a second with pleasure. And then you'd be inundated and your feeling thing would be negative sensation. That's it. And then the third one would be you'd be feeling the pain of feeling separated from other beings or the pain of believing in self. You just feel that pain. and no alternative to that. It's different to say no alternative than having a response. I mean, when your hand felt cold, you put it in your, you put it in your rope. Yeah, well, it's that, but it's possible at the time it felt cold, at that moment, that I felt no sense of, no idea of wanting an alternative to that sensation.

[74:26]

That's liberation. That's like going forward on the path, just no alternative to what's happening. Then the next moment you can decide to do something, but it isn't so much do something about the pain or try to manipulate the pain, that doesn't necessarily have the motivation. But it's time to stop. So I appreciate your enthusiastic hands and feet. Meditation

[74:59]

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