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Mind's Dance: Beyond Duality

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RA-01969

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The talk explores the dynamics between subjective and objective aspects of mind, emphasizing the concept of the "mind seal" in Zen thought, illustrated by a koan involving Zen Master Baofu. It delves into the intricate interplay of consciousness, using metaphorical language and examples to articulate the non-duality of action and perception. The speaker connects these ideas to broader Buddhist concepts such as karma, mindfulness, and the practice of meditation, focusing on transforming and transcending ordinary human activity to grasp a deeper understanding of one's inherent Buddha nature.

Referenced Works and Concepts:
- Chinese Character for Thinking: The talk references how the Chinese translate the Sanskrit "chetana" using a character for mind alongside a symbolic representation of a pattern, illustrating the active and passive aspects of consciousness.
- Chetana and Citta (Sanskrit terms): Central to the discussion for illustrating consciousness and mental formations.
- Koan of Baofu and the Seal: This historical Zen story is used to frame the discussion, highlighting the dual nature of mind and the transcendence of typical dualistic thinking.
- Iron Ox Narrative in Commentary: This story is referred to regarding how impressions of action are understood in Zen, specifically in the "Book of Serenity."
- Vairocana: The Dharmakaya Buddha is mentioned as a representation of ultimate reality in the discussion about transcending consciousness layers and Buddha nature.
- Six Subtle Dharma Gates: Referring to meditation practices that include counting breath and mindfulness as methodologies for understanding the mind's workings.
- Dogen's Instructions on 'Think Not Thinking': Used to exemplify non-dual awareness during mindfulness and meditation practice.

AI Suggested Title: Mind's Dance: Beyond Duality

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Side: A
Speaker: Tenshin Anderson
Possible Title: Book of Serenity Case 29
Additional text: Iron Ox
Location:

Side: B
Speaker: Tenshin Anderson
Possible Title: Book of Serenity: Case 29
Additional text: 4 keys of discernment of mind, Discussion of Chinese character for think, Discussion of the verse
Location:

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Transcript: 

I'm just going to suggest to you a little bit about ways of looking at what's going on here in terms of the language, and that is what's being discussed here is the relationship between self and others, or the relationship between the subjective and the objective aspects of mind and the projections of inherent existence across that duality. So this case can be a meditation on your own, your own process in your own mind or your relationship between yourself and the environment or between yourself and other people. All these are going on at the same time.

[01:02]

And in a sense I see there's four layers to this conversation here, at least. And these are layers of, you know, increasing subtlety in discernment of the workings of the mind. The first level is the level at which we're being told that the active part of the mind, the subjective part of the mind, It can act. It's the aspect of the mind that has the ability to act.

[02:09]

It has the ability to think, for example, which is the fundamental form of action. Subjectively, there seems to be the ability, there is the appearance of the ability to think. And the Chinese character for these, you know, the active side of the mind, literally is, as I mentioned before, the character which means to think, the Chinese character which means to think, which is the way the Chinese people translate the Sanskrit word chetana. And chetana is related to the Sanskrit root ch, which means mind. It is the basis of the word citta, which means mind or consciousness. Caitanya is the overall pattern of the moment of consciousness.

[03:14]

Every moment of consciousness has some pattern. And the pattern or the topology, the landscape, or I also like the expression watershed of consciousness, is the way the consciousness looks like it could act. And the way consciousness looks like it can act is what we call thinking. This cetana, or the shape of the consciousness, is the definition of action. It's not the same as action. It's a definition of action. Action is then basically the imagination of what this shape or what this confirmation could do. The Chinese character for thinking is the character, this character which means, which they use to translate citta or mind, in combination with a character which means a rice paddy.

[04:37]

But it's shaped like a square with a cross in the middle. Because rice paddies in China have, you know, there are patterns, they're set up in these little patterns. So it means a rice paddy or a rice field, but it also means a pattern or a shape, an organized shape. That character in combination with the character for mind makes the new character, which means to think. It's mind, it's the pattern of mind. Actually, the pattern of mind is not moving, but it looks like it could go in some direction. Like if you look at a mountain range and you imagine If you poured water on it, you could imagine, well, the water would run down these hills, into this crevice, and then would run over to that one. So you could see, it seems to be going in this way or that way. And by looking at the shape of a moment of consciousness, you can tell whether it's going in a wholesome direction, an unwholesome direction, or if it's very complex, sometimes you can't determine what direction it's going, and that's called indeterminative action, where you can't assess...

[05:43]

Because there's so many complexities, it's hard to see the overall tendency of the consciousness. However, this is happening all the time, that these conscious moments are appearing with these shapes, and there is the ability to absorb this shape, which is consciousness itself. So there's consciousness of this shape, so there's consciousness of thinking. and that's thinking, which then ramifies into verbal, physical, and thought karma. That's probably quite a bit. And that's all over on the subjective, active side of the mind. And that's what's being referred to here as when the impression, when the seal's left on,

[06:44]

It ruins the impression. The passive side of mind, which again in Chinese is very nice too, because they use a character which means, there's a passive marker with the same character for thinking. So if you look at the discussion there, you see the ability to think and that which is thought of. You can see that the thinking is the same. It's really thinking in its two aspects. That which is thought of, or that which can be thought of, the passive aspect of mind, is when the seal is removed, the impression remains. This applies to the workings of your mind, just if you, like, have your eyes shut or in a dream, but it also is happening when you open your eyes and see somebody else. And we actually have conversations between the active and passive side of our mind when we're talking to somebody, which we can barely stand to face, the intimacy of our interactions.

[08:00]

And these people interacting in this story, they are also acting out the same thing that they're talking about. The people are like the active and passive side of the mind and they're talking about the active and passive side of the mind. So the first layer is the teacher is saying this. He's saying these two sides and we didn't bring this up before but if you've read the commentary you see that that this teacher is getting up and talking, but what he's referring to is an old story, a previous story that happened, which is in the commentary on the verse. Commenting on the works of the iron ox, when the seal remains, the impression is ruined. It says that the king of Ming sent an emissary bearing a vermilion seal. Baofu, a Zen master, Baofu went into the hall and said, take it away and the impression of the seal remains.

[09:17]

Leave the seal and the impression is ruined. And a monk came up and said, not taking away or leaving, what is the use of the seal? And Baofu hit him. The monk said, in that case, being inside the ghost cave on a mountain is entirely due to today. Baofu was silent. And the commentator says, I say, what a pity. The dragon's head, but the snake's tail. In other words, his opinion is, this story was not concluded, was not brought to fruition. And he feels, and I guess most other people feel too, that this story is brought to completion. Although There's, in a sense, a defeat here. Still, the story is completed. Anyway, the first layer is just laying this out. Okay? This is two workings of the Buddha Mind Seal.

[10:22]

Yes? I'm sorry to ask you to go back over a little bit, but you said that chaitanya is the definition of action. Yes. But it isn't the same as action. And then you went on to say that action is something. And that got past me. Action is... Action is the illusion that the definition has, you know, moved. Thank you. Okay. It's like I often use the, the thing about it could take a bunch, you could draw little stick figures, or particularly I talk about Mickey Mouse. You draw a little Mickey Mouse on some of those little pads that they have now, and then draw another Mickey Mouse and another Mickey Mouse, and each one's slightly different.

[11:27]

And then if you just spin the things, those different Mickey Mouses, it'll look like Mickey Mouse is moving. And if you draw him in a certain way, Mickey Mouse's movements may seem to be fairly, you know, coherent. Like he's walking along or something or jumping. If you draw him another way, Mickey may be just sort of like jittery, you know. But actually each picture that you're doing that with is just Mickey looking like he's about to do something or he could do something or has just done something or might be doing something. But actually you can't see what he's doing because he's just like this or like this. But actually, karma is simply always just like this, or like this, or a, o, i. But we put this together and imagine that there's some continuity among these mind states, and then that's how we compose the illusion of action. And that's how we create the world. That's the active side. There's also a side where you don't think you're doing things, which is everybody else. but actually those two sides of mind are always interacting.

[12:33]

And that's why it isn't the case that karma, that your independent subjective action happens. So I'm just trying to say the first layer of this koan is in some sense a, well, it's one layer of presentation of this kind of karma. this kind of mental action, and then the next layer goes deeper. Yes? I guess I want to go back to, I don't quite understand the passive, which is the act of the passive side of the mind. You're saying that in the passive, that you're not thinking, or you are thinking that it's somewhere else, whether that is you, or... The passive side? Yeah, you were talking about the first layer is the active, subjective... No, the first layer of the story is talking about the active and passive side of mind and how they work. What is the... I don't understand the passive side of mind. The passive side of mind is basically the environment for you and the environment for me.

[13:41]

I'm an example of the passive side of your mind. Before I make a judgment or say anything about you, before anything comes up as far as... Whenever you think, I'm not you, I'm the passive side of your mind. But you never could have a mind or consciousness without something which you're able to think of. Just like you couldn't have this moment of consciousness without looking at me or somebody. So I'm not really other. I'm just a passive. I'm just that which you're thinking of. But take me away and your ability to think isn't functioning. You no longer have the ability to think. The ability to think only has function in relationship to something it thinks of. And what it thinks of is its pattern.

[14:44]

which again means it thinks of itself. So the nice thing about that Chinese character is one is the ability to think, the ability of mind to have that pattern, to think of that pattern. The other one is that which is thought of, namely the pattern is thought of. That's why the pattern is the definition of what you think you're doing. The pattern of consciousness is the definition of what you think your action is. And one side of it is you're able to think of it, the other side is it's thought of. These two together make a moment of awareness. One side is the subjective side where you think you can do things, the other side is what you think you're doing, or what you think you're thinking about, or what you think you're saying, or what you think your posture is. Posture is not the ability to act. Posture is what you think you just did.

[15:49]

Yes? So, the thought... You said the thought of is what is removed, the obsession remains. I think I said that the active side is leaving... leaving the... leaving it on... the impression is ruined. You can't see it because there's just action. There's no awareness of anything. One side is there's no awareness of anything. There's just pure action or pure illusion of action. The other side is you take the thing away and you can see it. Take away your ability to think of things and you see something you're thinking of. But really these are two sides of one thing called the seal. The seal is actually both sides at the same time. But the way the seal works is that when you leave the seal on, you can't see anything. In other words, when the seal's impressing, you don't see anything.

[16:59]

Give an example. Give an example of where you don't see anything. You can't give an example where you see something, but you can give an example where you do see something, and that's the case where the action is not being looked at, the seal's being removed. it might help to do something more difficult and then come back. And that is, what they're asking then is if, what happens if you do this impossible thing of neither doing either one of these? What happens when both, when the mind's not subjective or objective? What's it like when you see that actually you can't have one without the other?

[18:02]

and you're not falling for the way the mind's working. What's that like? Yeah, I know, but... Well, don't just call it something, do something. Breathing, yeah. Breathing's good. Well, that's, you know... Where is the... Hmm? What? That's right. It's all right. But how, you know, you have to give an example of being in the moment. You have to demonstrate something more. Yeah. He said, he said, if you don't do either... take it away or leave it. Then is leaving it or taking it away right or wrong? And the guy didn't just clap his hands or snort.

[19:08]

He did what? You're stuck. Well, no, he asked a question. He said, actually, I had this working. And he's right, he did. But then he said, don't impress it. But... And he was actually saying... Well, he's saying many things. One thing he could be saying, we've all said, is don't approve me. See, there's another dimension of this, another play on this, is this is a seal of approval. Don't approve me. I don't need your approval because I have this working already. I'm coming to show you, to get your approval by telling you I don't need it. What do you think? And the teacher... Doesn't really say no, he kind of just presses him by saying, well, you're just, actually, you're not really a whale. You're just a little frog. But now he has another chance. This, actually, his response was good. He was being tested. But he got stuck. He could have done almost anything after that other than getting stuck. But he got stuck. What did he do?

[20:09]

He fell right into what? Thinking. Thinking. What happened when he thought? He ruined the impression. He fell into thinking. He lost sight of the seal. He was doing okay before that, actually. He was just being tested, and he failed the test. How human. How human, yeah. The first part is about human. This is the way humans work. Second part is about not being a human. Human beings can realize non-humanness by studying this human level thoroughly. You will be able to realize when that other level where neither sealing or non-sealing are happening. This is not human activity anymore. It's, as Maya said, it's freedom. But what is non-human activity?

[21:11]

He said what it is, right? We already know what it is. It's freedom. It's when there's neither sealing nor not sealing, when there's not impression, when there's not leaving it or taking it away. That's not human. And the guy's response is good. His response was not particularly human either. Then his teacher also made a rather non-human thing, calling him a frog. This is not the ordinary human way of talking. This is called compassion. This is not worrying about anything but whether this guy is going to unfold his unfolding. He's unfolding now. He wants him to do it again. So he says, okay, froggy. But froggy reverted to human activity and started thinking. So then he gives him another chance. But it's too late.

[22:17]

So then he gives him another chance. But it's still too late. And then the governor says, basically, hey, you know, you're done for, get down. He doesn't say actually that at first. First he just says, I see that the way things work in Buddhism is the same as in government. And then the teacher says, what do you mean? What did you see? And he basically tells the teacher, this guy is done for. You can't resurrect him. He's out. He's a knockout case. And all this relates to this introduction we talked about before, where we say this slow chess, or rolling your eyes in your head, you miss it. Non-human world.

[23:41]

Why do you think that... Non-what? Non-human world. Why do you think that... Well, this isn't a non-human world. This isn't a world. The non-human that I'm talking about is not the non-human of another world. That's not the non-human I mean. Non-human I mean is Buddha. It's not in another world called non-human world. My question is actually related to why... why do they, it seems pretty subjective to use animals this way as examples, like as though a frog, I mean, as though we entirely understand the difference between a frog and a whale, and to compare our development with that, I mean, I'm just wondering why that seems really subjective to you. Well, I just want to make clear, when I said non-human, I wasn't talking about frogs and whales, literally. I was talking about transcendence of being a human being.

[24:44]

That's what I meant by that. Well, I took it on a level of I was looking for, you know, an adult, a spiritual adult, and I found, you know, a kindergartner Just, I was looking for something big and I found something small. You know, I've been looking in the oceans, scouring the oceans, and now here I am in the mud. Now I'm in the mud, I found a frog. This is just not the scale of activity that I was hoping to have with you. He's judging the guy to see if the guy can stand up to judgment and not slip back into this human way of thinking. This is a test, right? I propose it as a test. And the guy slips back by just thinking. He could have talked and then his talk would have been judged again by whether he was thinking while he was talking or whether he had transcended his thinking while he was talking.

[25:50]

Okay? I don't think that the teacher in this case, I think the teacher in this case is being presented as somebody who is not being subjective or objective. And he's trying to find a companion. All right. Now the verse, if you want to, we can go to the verse now. This opens up other dimensions, but if you don't want to, if you have more questions up to this point, we can deal with that. Yes. I'm still having a little bit of trouble with iron ox, and I missed the very first class, but somehow I'm seeing workings of the iron ox, and I see iron ox as the seal itself, somehow.

[26:57]

Because workings... One definition of working with the lines in a seal, right? In other words, a seal has a pattern. And I don't know if I'm just totally off base on that way of seeing it or not, because you spoke of an iron ox as being across the river, an actual iron ox. There's a whole bunch of things happening at once, okay? And one thing is like the working of an iron ox in the sense that when it walks, you know, when it puts its foot down, it makes an impression, but it ruins the impression because it keeps its foot there. You can't see the impression when you leave your foot down. You can't see the impression of your thinking in your thinking. You have to take your thinking away to see the impression, just like when an ox takes the foot away. But this is a big ox, right?

[27:58]

We're talking about like a big impression. We're talking about everything. We're talking about you like impressing the universe and the universe impressing you. This is big scale cosmic working here we're talking about. But it comes down to this little thinker and what it thinks of. It's played out in our little consciousness. So one level of this analogy is, it's this actual footprint in the mud or on the ground, and when you leave the foot down, you can't see the impression. When you take the foot away, you can see the impression. When you take thinking away, you see the objective world. If you look at the thinking, you don't see anything. When the thinking is what's happening, there's no appearance, nothing appears. But actually, it's one thing. This moment of consciousness has a subjective and objective, has the active and passive side.

[28:59]

They're never separate. But if you forget about the thinking, you think there's something out there. If I forget about that I'm thinking, I think you're out there. If I remember my thinking too much, I can't see you. But if I see you and also simultaneously don't forget, in other words, if I don't leave it on or take it away, I have a totally different relationship to you. I feel, what can I say, intimate. But usually, we take the thinking away and see things, or we actively think and don't see anything. But you're also right that this interaction is the seal, and the workings of the seal could be the design of the seal, but also a seal, what's a seal before it sticks on something? It's theoretically a seal, but it's really a seal when it's a seal, when it's working, right? And when it's working, which is the seal?

[29:59]

The thing you have in your hand that you press down, or the mark on the paper. Which is the seal? They're both. You can't have one without the other. And they're not the same. They're negative images of each other. And the seal is actually the opposite and the reverse of its impression. This is also true of the way the mind works. They're inseparable and opposite. They're inseparable and contradictory. That's also the nature of our mind. The seal is contradictorily self-identical with its impression. And when we take the seal away, we see the seal in its contradictory self-identity. When we leave the seal on, we're not aware of its impression.

[31:01]

There's only pure illusion of the activity, of the ability to enact that pattern of consciousness at that moment. Okay? So on all these different levels that are going on at once, with the image of the bull and also with the impression, and this is the way the mind works too. That's where we got the idea about bulls and seals, from the way our mind works. All the entire phenomenal world is simply a reflection of our mind, separated by the ability of the mind to split itself in two. what you call mind organ. Yeah? When he's asking, suppose it's neither removed nor left, do you think in some senses he's setting the monk up because it's impossible not to remove or leave it?

[32:12]

Yeah, he's setting up the monk as a human being. He's setting him up he's also giving him a chance to demonstrate realization of mind, which the monk does, I think. I mean, that's what, I agree that most people think that the monk, that the elder did respond well, that he came up with a transcendent answer. He responded very nicely in the realm of the impossible. the impossible thing of not being objective or subjective. In other words, presenting action which directly emanates from the unity of mind. I think that was... I think that's what happened. When you said, I have been working... Yeah. I think he was... I think he was sincere and I think his realization was letting him say that. And then on top of it saying, please don't impress it. I think the teacher was pretty happy with that and was testing him further. So I think he did offer them, say, do the impossible.

[33:17]

Like, you know that, what is that, what's his name, Basho said, the problem with most people's poetry is it's either objective or subjective. And so he was trying to write poetry. He was trying to write poetry which was neither objective nor subjective. That was his thing, to try to express verbally from that place of unity, where the seals not left are taken away. It's a real, it's a big challenge, but anyway, I think the monk did it pretty well, and then he tested him again, but then he stuck. He slipped over to the subjective side, and there he was, lost in his subjectivity. And he gave him another chance, but he couldn't come back. So what do you think? Do you think that neither being objective nor subjective is the same thing as accepting the inevitability of the tendency to be exclusively one of those things?

[34:34]

I think a result of accepting the tendency to take these two sides The result of patience with that process will be transformation, and the ability to respond in this new way will come from taking responsibility for the way you're thinking. So the basic principle is taking total responsibility for your karmic way of thinking will give you the ability to respond in this new way, which then turns out to be appropriate for meeting people in this realm of intimacy. And I think this monk had been working on that very nicely. So he's already been doing his homework, supposedly, of meditating on his karmic life for a long time. He's an elder, been studying his karma for a long time, has understood it, taken responsibility for it. So he has the ability to talk to this great Zen teacher, Feng Shui. By the way, it's Feng. Okay?

[35:36]

And he does, he comes back for one, you know, gets his one nice response. But then the teacher gives him another chance, a little harder one, and he can't come up with it. He whips the jumper up around real fast the next time the guy trips and reverts to his, you know, ancient twisted karma. What do you think? Why do you think he slipped up? Pardon? Why do you think he slipped up? I think Feng Shui, I think he came on strong. I think he blew real hard and flipped the guy around again and he couldn't recover. That's part of what's in the verse is this pearl rolling in the bowl.

[36:37]

If you watch yourself and you come up with a good response, then you have to also be able to turn around on it again. So he's being tested here and he's being pushed hard and turned around again, but he couldn't make the turn successfully and come up with a new and original expression from his realization. Feng Shui is a dragon cave. I mean, what is it? Not a dragon cave, it's a wind cave. Wind cave. The wind cave gave him a big blow and flipped him around. Yeah. It seems like he was kind of bludgeoning the guy. I mean, he gave him a chance. Well, first time he blew, and then he started bludgeoning him. Yeah, he bludgeoned him, like he got stuck. Yeah, he got stuck. That's right. And the governor says, you know, you love me not too long, you've created... You're going too far now. He didn't let it settle. Big bully? It looks like that to me, too.

[37:44]

And so the governor really, you know, did a nice job. And the teacher, you know, respected that and got down off his seat, went home. Yeah? The governor's the hero, I'm sure. Well, but the governor, it's easy to watch this stuff, let me tell you. It's easy to watch. And much easier to watch than when the person's bearing down on you and, you know, you're right in that and watching yourself and adjusting and coming. It's easy to watch. But still, he was good, yes? Yes. You were saying that his first presentation was a good presentation, and then when he got turned around, he fell into the subjective mind. This goes back to what you were saying before. Is there another mistake to be made there? I mean, if there are two sides to this, is there any such thing as being lost in objectivity? Lost in objectivity? Yeah, I mean, what's the other mistake that could be made, the other side of this? as opposed to falling into thinking if you were going to not be expressing both simultaneously?

[38:55]

Not seeing anything and not being able to act. And it's interesting because I've been trying to go in order And I think I'm going to continue to go in order, but I'd like to jump to case 32 because case 32 is called mind and environment. It's about the same thing. In that case, the monk turns around and looks at the subjectivity and the teacher says, what do you see now? And he says, nothing. But that's criticized as being only the first step. This guy is, you know, this thing just keeps turning around, right? You're always turning around on this, actually. And one level of it is, if you look back, you notice that you don't see anything. So he says to the guy in that case, he says, where do you come from? And then the guy says, where he came from. He says, do you think of that place? He says, I think of it all the time. What do you see? And then he tells him the stuff he sees. And he says, if you turn it around, then what do you see?

[39:57]

He says, I see nothing. That's being stuck on the other side. You said there were four levels to this. Are we still on the first level? No. The first level is, is the teacher asks the question. And the teacher gives the information, right? About the way the mind works. Then he says, okay, do this impossible thing. The guy does the impossible thing. Then he pushes him. The guy gets stuck. And he's basically stuck. And then the governor comes in from the side, sees this, and sees where this is going and says, you know, well, I see the way it's going. This is the same as in the government. He knows how things work in the government. Now he sees the same in Buddhism. The teacher says, what did you see? And the governor told him what he saw. I've been in situations like that too, where things are happening between me and the people watching can see, you know, and then tell me, hey, it's over, okay, thank you. All right? So that's the four levels I see.

[41:01]

In a sense, in order for the monk to keep on, it seems to me that in order for the monk to keep on answering right, he has to, they say in some ways, you have to keep on killing the teacher. Yeah, keep on killing the teacher, that's a good thing, right. Or to keep on killing the teacher means keep on seeing what the teacher is. But it's hard to spin around and stay on your feet and see the teacher again. It's hard. And you get dizzy. Is it hard for teachers? It's hard for teachers too. As you see, he got dizzy too because he didn't know how to stop. Looks like. He couldn't figure out, hey, this is over. You're never going to come back. He couldn't see it. But I think this is also the working of compassion. This whole thing is compassion. They're both helping each other very nicely. And it's a really nice example of how we interact. Except usually we don't take that... Usually we stay in the first level of, you know, flipping from one side to the other rather than coming from neither one.

[42:14]

But, you know, once in a while we come from neither one. Like every moment, actually. But it's hard to watch it because it's hard to watch the flip-flopping so we don't see the non-flip-flopping. So we need to watch this flip-flopping which is called karma. Yes? Why does he ask him not to impress the seer? This is coming from the realm where anything can happen. He was just expressing his realization. And if there's anything contradictory going on here, that shows his realization. That's congruent with realization, that contradictoriness.

[43:19]

And that's why the teacher liked it and gave him that apparent insult, that ironic remark. The main rhetorical device in Zen is irony. So the teacher uses, in order to get his point across, he gives this ironic remark. But the guy got caught. and then he reverted to the realm where only certain things are possible. Thank you very much. What? Are they the same? Just wonder how come you can call this compassion and hope and thought. It's like... It's like... I saw this... What came to my mind is I saw this film called Mao to Mozart.

[44:27]

Did you ever see that? It's about Isaac Stern teaching music in China. You know Isaac Stern, the violinist? He's an American violinist, very good. About 65, 70 years old or so. Maybe he's older now. Anyway, he went to China... maybe 10, 15 years ago and did a tour teaching people how to play the violin. And he was teaching these people to play the violin and playing the violin, you know, and he would watch them play the violin. And while they're playing the violin, he would talk to them. And not exactly yell at them, but sort of yell at them. And they were good enough, but he was pushing them, you know. And some broke down. They weren't good enough. But others... from their concentration and their presence with their skill, he could push them into another realm. But it's tricky. So in this case, he had a monk who was very present and stable, an experienced elder, who demonstrated great skill, and he said to the guy, sing!

[45:40]

And he couldn't do it. so he fell but he was trying so maybe in a sense you're right that it wasn't compassion in the sense that if you want to say what is the customer is always right or the proof is in the pudding he wasn't quite right he didn't push just at the right moment or just the right way he couldn't in that way convert this guy so maybe you're right that it wasn't true it wasn't effective compassion because somehow he couldn't he spun him too fast or something so he fell down so maybe you're right that it When I say it's compassion, I guess I count, you know, a good try, but maybe it wasn't good enough, or maybe you're right. Even great, great Wind Cave blew it. Could that comment also be sort of like Lynch's thing, you know, now the line ends in this blind ass, and he's, in a way, he's offering a compliment. No, it is a compliment. It's an ironic compliment. It is a compliment. Well, he doesn't have to be unhappy about being a frog.

[46:49]

No, he doesn't have to be unhappy. He wasn't unhappy. He just got... He wasn't unhappy, necessarily. He just got stuck. But it's not exactly the same as Linji's saying, this is my, you know, my lineage now dies with his blind ass. is destroyed by this blind ass. It isn't the same. That was after that guy had already succeeded in a couple rounds. Then that was complete approval that time. This is a partial approval. Did he get stuck when he requested the Master not to press the seal? Was that stuffless? No. He was okay then, I think. He was fine. Then the teacher said, Hey, froggy. And then he started thinking. Then he got stuck. So then teacher gave him another chance. He pressed him. Come on, say more. You know, stop thinking. You slip, but can you recover? Can you come back from the realm of you flipped back into thinking?

[47:51]

Can you recover? And the guy hesitated. So then he gave him one more. Then he yelled at him to try to help him recover from that. And he still didn't recover it. He said, can you remember the story? But then he starts to say what the story is, so he hits him with a whisk. Arlene? It seems to me that it's a little bit like trying to teach a child a punishing. It seems to me that anybody can flip if they are in a position in which they're being put down or made to It's like bringing on the ego to challenge the ego that way. It seems to me a very bad teaching. Well, I don't see this as a child. I see this as an elder. Again, I see this as somebody, like in the case, when somebody doesn't know how to play the violin, you don't start telling them to sing with it.

[48:54]

They'll just cry and go home. These are cases where the people are very good and they're playing. And he said, if I was playing the violin, and it's not a good example because I can't play at all, but if I was playing the violin and somebody, Isaac Stern was there, I'd be nervous enough. And then he was saying, now sing, sing. You know, it'd be hard to hold on to the instrument, right? But they were good enough to hold on and he was pushing them. into another realm, and it worked, and you could hear the music change. Exactly the same tone, the same notes, but it changed from what sounded kind of okay, it turned into music. So the basic principle is here, when you find somebody who's stable and can speak from that stability, then they need to be pushed a little bit. Now, if they're children, they're not stable yet even. So when they're not stable, that's not time to push them. If they're not stable, what you should do is you should say, hey, you can be like you are. You can nod your head, that's fine.

[49:57]

Just keep nodding and smiling, nodding and smiling. And when you're totally there, then I can say something a little unusual maybe. But this guy was, this guy was, this guy was stable. And the teacher pushed hard and he stumbled. So this is not a success story in a sense. But he probably wanted the teacher to push hard too. Oh, he definitely did. He came forward and asked for it. He said, don't give me your seal of approval. And he didn't. And he didn't. And the way he didn't The guy said, okay, I'm tightrope walking. Now throw me another ball. Throw me a bicycle. Throw me two bicycles. See if I can make it, boss. Come on, give me a test. That's what he's saying, right? He said, I've got what you're talking about, okay?

[51:00]

Now don't approve me. And he didn't. But then he got what he asked for and he couldn't handle it. This wasn't a kid. Now, maybe he threw him a motorcycle instead of a bicycle, and that was too much. But let's look at the case, the verse. Maybe that will be interesting now. The works of the iron ox. And by the way, this works here, this works is that character is in my name, that ki, which means, you know, function, opportunity, working.

[52:05]

And it's also in that expression, in the subtle round mouth of the pivot, the spiritual works, the spiritual works, that works, turn. When the seal remains, the impression is ruined. Passing through to go beyond the crown of Vairocana. Vairocana, you know, is Vairocana Buddha, which is the Dharmakaya Buddha. The truth body of Buddha. Going beyond the head of the Dharmakaya Buddha. coming back to sit on the tongues of manifestation Buddhas, which we call Nirmanakaya Buddhas. Wind Cave is in charge of the scales. Lu Pi sustains a fall.

[53:08]

On the cane, at the shout. A lightning flash, a spark. Evident, distinct clear the pearl in the bowl or the pearl rolling in the bowl. Again this is the image from case 26 and will reappear at case 36. This pearl rolling in the bowl. But when you raise your eyebrows You missed it. Which is referring back again to the introduction. If you roll your eyebrows or if you knit your eyebrows, a lot of times I see people knitting their brow and then it's over. They're not listening anymore. They're trying to figure it out. Slow chess. Slow chess. Wow. Yeah? Doesn't this last line refer to the story of Yashan and Mazu and the mosquito biting the iron ox and the...

[54:14]

Isn't it appropriate for that story? Sometimes it's okay to let him raise his eyebrows and think as though there's something he's not prepared for. Well, I won't say no. But it seems like it might be. And if so, I don't understand why he says he missed it. Because in that original story, he says sometimes Jesus is a particular person. So it seems like it's taking one side. Yeah. Well, I just, I don't know, you know, if it's referring to that or not, but because it's true in that story, sometimes it's okay to raise your eyebrows and sometimes it's not. That's the one where it starts out. Yaoshan's asking Shinto, Sekito Gisen, to show him, you know, basically to show him this impossible situation of neither taking it away or leaving it.

[55:27]

And Sekito says, being just so won't do. Not being just so won't do it all. Being just so and not being just so won't do it all. How about you? And Yaoshan can't respond. So then he sends him to Matsu and tells him the story. Matsu says to him, sometimes I make him raise his eyebrows and blink. Sometimes I don't make him raise his eyebrows and blink. Sometimes raising the eyebrows and blinking is all right. Sometimes raising the eyebrows and blinking is not all right. How about you? At that time, Yao Shan understood and said, I think he bowed, and Matsu said, what did you see?

[56:33]

He said, now I see that when I was with Shito, I was like a mosquito trying to bite an iron bull. Or trying to bite the iron bull. Same iron bull, I guess. Yes. The raising of the eyebrows also appears in one of the first cases in the Book of Serenity in reference to Buddha and appears periodically. In the first case. What? It's in the first case. in the first case, and also it appears periodically, it seems like it's a figure of activity.

[57:34]

It's a figure for entering into worldly activity. But it's a very subtle form, but it's sort of attributed to people who have realized their Buddha nature. And it's a... It's sort of a stepping down from the position of enlightenment. So in this case, I think the distinction that's being made is being stuck in wiggling your eyebrows as conducting worldly activities without first having realized. Meaning? Yeah. Still wiggling your eyebrows, then you haven't gone past that yet. It's a matter to come back from it. Uh-huh. And I think that it relates to going beyond the crown of Vairacchana. It's a reference to that. One's wiggling his eyebrows.

[58:36]

It's not, has not gone beyond that realm. Yeah. Yeah. So, and also I'd like to point out that Vairacchana Buddha is also associated, the Vairacchana Buddha, Dharmakaya Buddha and the Sambhogakaya Buddha and the Nirmanakaya Buddha are also associated with avoiding all evil, practicing all good, and saving all beings. Those three pure precepts are usually aligned with these three Buddhas, three Buddha bodies. And so avoiding all evil in Zen is called right conduct. In other words, the forms of Zen practice, to do them with the right attitude, and then to practice all good, to practice the six paramitas and so on, and to save all beings. This is the truth body, the reward body or bliss body, and the transformation body.

[59:38]

So, going beyond Vairacchana Buddha means to fulfill the forms of Zen practice and understand what they're really about, to go beyond them, and then come back and practice all good and save all beings. That's what's going on here too. Another way to talk about that. To go over the head of Vairujana and come back through the body of bliss, through the body of faith, through the body of doing wholesome practices, and then take a form in order to save beings. So this verse makes out Wind Cave to be a Nirmanakaya Buddha, in this form, who's gone beyond, over the head of the ultimate reality principle, the Dharmakaya Buddha, come back through the bliss body, come back through the body of joy of the Bodhisattva's vow, and taken the form of a manifestation Buddha to play this role.

[60:47]

However, in this case, he was unsuccessful. It looks like. But maybe not. Yes? Yeah, I was just going to say, maybe not. I think that, you know, in some ways it seems like the success of an exchange like this is, does somebody wake up? Yeah. Somebody woke up who may not have been elderly. Yeah, it may have been one of you. Did any of you wake up? I'd say he woke up, the master woke up when he left. Yeah, so maybe the master... So that he was... So his unresolved karma was, I think, played out. Yeah. Yeah, so maybe that's what happened. Yeah. I hope so. That's right. That's right. Where? Right.

[61:49]

This is just a Mickey Mouse posture at the end here. And we're trying to figure out where does it go? Poor people that we are. This hammer... In the cane, is that what you have? And the shout? At the end? On the cane. You have on the cane? Yes. It's the last paragraph. You have, what do you have? On the cane. You have this hammer on the cane? No hammer. You don't have this hammer at the end there? Last paragraph. I'm reading the commentary. In the cane. The last paragraph? Yes. The hammer in the cane and the shout, the changes of action in lightning flashes and sparks are all momentary light and scenes.

[63:00]

Be careful not to use assurance or denial or gain or loss to decide victory or defeat. It's like a pearl rolling in a bowl. Blink your eyes and you miss it. One song. struck the meditation seat with his whisk and said, done. So I guess I wondered if you people understand how to practice what this case is about. You don't understand? I was thinking just now about how you lose something at telling, and something happens to you and you feel it's profound, and then you try and tell someone. You lose something because you're already talking about the past. But that these stories, to me, use language in such a beautiful way that they give you noble effort, you know, at trying to describe or recreate or share their experiences.

[64:11]

Yeah, I think so too. I think somehow the structure of language here is, I think it's pretty helpful. I think it's pretty helpful. I think it's pretty good. And so my question is, I think we have to, first of all, figure out how do we get to the place that sets this up, that sets this story up. There's homework to do before this case can happen in your life. Do you have some sense of how to meditate on this dynamic of the active and passive side of your mind? Do you have some sense of how to meditate on that? That's the first part of the practice here. That's in the background of this case that the teacher and the elder are doing.

[65:15]

Can you explain a little more? You mentioned in case 32 that, I don't know what it was, you said, I now see nothing, referring to the passive mind. What was meant by that? He actually wasn't referring to the passive mind. He was told to look back at the ability to think. That was the instruction. And when he looked back at the ability to think, he couldn't see anything then. He didn't see anything then. And then the teacher said, that's okay for the stage of faith. In other words, you were obedient. I gave you instruction and you did it. And by doing that, by turning around and seeing that the mind, that when you look at the ability to think, you can't see anything. When you turn around and look at your ability to think, you don't see anything because that's not, you can't think of that ability.

[66:18]

It's not one of the things you can think of. You cannot think of the active, or you can think of it, but when you do, you don't see anything anymore. How does it relate to it? How does it relate to it? It's half of the picture and it does not include the passive mind. You're not aware, you can't see the passive mind anymore because you've just made the active mind that which you think of by that exercise. And then, in some sense, then you have just realized that the nature of mind itself is insubstantial by that exercise. However, he had to do something more than that, and he couldn't do it yet, in that case 32.

[67:24]

And there's another step he was supposed to take beyond that, which is called the stage of person, which he had not yet reached. which is then where you have to act from this place. You can see if you can roll your eyebrows now from a new place. But he couldn't at that time. That's all he could do. But it's the same type of meditation in case 32. Yes? It's like I can't breathe without breathing out. Pardon? You asked a question about how to use it. Yes. And I was just thinking of how we can use it in meditating. Someone mentioned breathing before. Yes. Before, I don't know, it feels to me like now breathing has to happen in order for me to breathe at the same time, both at the same time.

[68:26]

breathing has to happen in order for you to breathe? Yeah, I used to be the breather. I mean, I seem to have flipped a little bit there. Where... Yeah, I see. They both have that. You mean breathing, you breathing and being breathed? Is that what you mean? Breathing seems to be happening simultaneously. Well, there's breathing, and breathing is you breathe you breathe, and you are being breathed. That's breathing. And when you meditate on breathing, you can see those two sides. You can see the side of you breathe, and you can, by studying the side of you breathe, you can realize the side that you're breathed. Yeah. And then you can look towards this, and then you can look, turn your attention towards the side of you're breathed, And you can also turn your attention to the side of your breathing.

[69:31]

Usually we think, I'm breathing. But once you get concentrated on, I'm breathing, then you can turn around and see who is the one who's able to think of breathing. And you can also look at what is the nature of being breathed. What is the nature of breath? What is the nature of the ability to breathe? You can look back and forth across this. First of all, though, you have to get stable. Before this instruction happens, these instructions are not for children. These instructions are for one who has gotten concentrated. That's why, first of all, you have to realize stillness in the breath. You have to watch the breath, watch your karma until you find the stillness in your karma. The stillness of your karma is when you can see that what you think is karma is actually your thought. What you think is motion is actually thinking and is not moving.

[70:38]

So first of all, you have to realize not moving. But in order to realize not moving, you have to admit whatever extent of moving you think you're doing. If you watch you're moving long enough, you'll see that it's not moving. Without stopping the show of movement, you can realize it's not moving. Then, you can go back and forth across this line. And you can meditate on your breath the whole time. Breath can be what you're working with the whole time. This is the six subtle dharma gates that we've talked about. counting, following, stopping, and then observing, which is when you look out, and then returning, where you look back, and then purifying, where you unify the two.

[71:41]

So you said uprightness brings awareness of the little seal. And I got stuck on the bringing. And I don't believe you mean... I mean, it's the entry point. So it's not agency, the uprightness carries something from one place to another place. No. Because to me there's a simultaneity in it. It's not a before and after. Yeah, it's like a gate. It's like the same thing I was just saying. Uprightness is being still. So when you're still, you're there and you can watch this, these two sides of the seal working. from that stillness, or from the uprightness. Uprightness and stillness, same thing. In the middle of meditating on your breath, there's some uprightness in the breath. In the middle of this apparent breathing in and breathing out, there's something that isn't moving. There's some uprightness there, and from that uprightness you can enter into awareness of this mind seal, of this working of subject and object, subject and object.

[72:50]

And you can, first you do it by watching the show, and then to get more skillful at the show, you turn towards one direction for a while, and exhaustively study that, then turn in the other direction, and study that, and then again come back and watch the show. But the place you watch from is this uprightness. And the way you get into the uprightness is by watching the apparent flow of the breath. The breath seems to be flowing at first. And if you can't get in the flow of the breath, well, then you can count the breath. tune into the flow. Shakyamuni Buddha did not actually recommend counting, but later people, you know, recommended that as a way to start jumping rope with your breath. And then following. And if you jump rope long enough, you can finally realize that somebody is not moving in the middle of that jump roping. Then you can start studying subject-object, subject-object. And then when you kind of see that, then you can just go from one side to the other and unify the two.

[73:53]

With breath, for example. So it's a gate in the sense of like you're there in your breathing process or whatever, or you're your posture and your breathing, you're there with this apparent flow of events, and uprightness just turns this, sort of, is the door to realize that this movement is not moving, to find the stillness or the quiet in the middle of this, this hubbub. Yes? Also, meditation on sense objects, too. Similarly, meditating on the thought nature, or the thought attributions to a sense perception.

[75:08]

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And this is also then, I was talking to somebody today, it's also like if you meditate on the roughness of your breath or any quality, that will also show you the other side. If you can just stay with it and meditate with it, you'll realize the basic principle of the fact that A is A includes that A is not A. but we must be present with this, you know, for this, for the pearl to turn in the bowl. It is turning, well, it is turning in the bowl, but somehow we have to be there with the stillness of that turning so we can participate with it. But it's, you know, it's hard because

[76:09]

we see these people out there making faces and we kind of always shake their hand or say, say hello and, and, you know, do what they're asking us to do and stuff like that. And we, and we start thinking, you know, it's hard. It's hard. When, when Dogen says to think now, thinking is, he's, that's that place where the terms are generally subjected. It's, it's almost, when I hear those words of his, think not thinking and we're sitting up and wanting breakfast. I've experienced that, is that not looking out and not looking back, it's sort of right there. Right, right. And the way you think not thinking is that you observe the way you're thinking. That's what you have to do first, admit that you're thinking. And if you admit that you're thinking thoroughly, that admission of your thinking thoroughly is thinking in a new way.

[77:17]

Because usually we just think. We don't turn around and look at our thinking. Usually we just think as a karmic act. We don't admit it. But if you watch the thinking, again, just like if you watch the breathing or the thinking or the posturing or the speaking, if you watch these things, you'll notice... that there is not just the thinking, there is the being thought. There is the being thought of. There is no independent operator there doing the thinking. You start to see this stuff, but you have to first of all admit your thinking. We must be able to discover and be aware that we're thinking. Most people have trouble doing that, so we start out by saying, well, be aware of your posture. It's the same thing as being aware of your thinking, Because thinking the way we're usually aware of thinking is as karma, or posture's karma too. So by studying posture and breathing, voice, posture, voice, breathing, as by studying this, you're starting to study karma, you're starting to study mind.

[78:31]

And gradually you can start to see that there's thinking there throughout this whole process, and then you're starting to think of thinking. And if you do this thoroughly, that's what we mean by think of, well, not thinking, but also think of that which doesn't think. Or think of the unthinking is another way to translate that. Anyway, there needs to be, somebody has to do some kind of reversal thing here. And when I study these koans, I feel inspired to reverse my basic habits of life, my basic habits of thinking. But it's hard. Everybody wants me to, really, and they think it's great if I ever do it.

[79:34]

But it's hard for me to understand that that's what they're asking me to do. But I think that really is what people are asking me to do. I say that in this class and I really believe that's what you're asking me to do. And that's what I'm really asking all you to do too. Although if you do it also it scares me because then I I lose you as a human being. Temporarily. But then I get you back as someone who can say surprising and illuminating things and encourage me figure out how I'm going to join you in that realm of freedom. But there's just some very basic, what do you call it, earthy kind of work to do here, of identifying your karmic activity, which is going on pretty much all day.

[80:37]

You don't have to change it. I mean, I'm not saying to change it, really. I'm saying just please notice it, get in touch with it, be really up to date with it, and that will set the possibility of realizing this Buddha mind seal here, which is always being impressed upon your karma by reality. Because really we do not do anything by ourselves, everyone helps us. This karma which you and I seem to be doing is actually under the auspices of all sentient beings. So is there anybody who doesn't understand how to do the practice of meditating on karma?

[81:41]

Does that, pardon? I was just confessing. You don't understand? Huh? What? I don't understand. What does that mean? You don't understand how to meditate on your karma? I don't understand how to accomplish Do you understand how to try? I think so, but then when I try, it's very difficult to do. So it makes me think I don't understand how to try. The class is already kind of running over, but just take a few seconds and try, okay?

[82:59]

Everybody? Thank you. They are intention.

[83:28]

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