where I see the influence of the Flower of Adornment scripture in Zen conversations is presented in case 93 of another collection of 100 koans called the Book of Serenity. So in case 93, a monk, I think quite an elder monk, who I think his name was Luzhu, went to Nanjuan and quoted a text. And I think the name of the text is Song of Awakening. Shodokan. Shodokan. And he quoted the part where it says something like, you can personally realize the wish-fulfilling gem

[01:01]

which is found in the womb of the Tathagata, or in Sanskrit, which is found in the Tathagata Garbha, or in English, which is found in the womb of the Thus Come One. In other words, found in the womb of the Buddha. This wish-fulfilling jewel can be realized or received and attained in the womb of the Buddha, the Tathagatagarbha. And I think after he quotes it, he says, what is the womb? What is the womb of the Buddha? Did you get that?

[02:10]

Could you go get the Book of Serenity? It's on the shelf in the Doksan room. And then after he says that, Nanchuan responds to, what is the womb? What is the womb of the Tathagata? What is the womb of the Buddha? And Nanchuan says, Cleary's translation is, that in me which comes and goes in you. So that's where I see the teaching of the scripture. the womb of the Jatagata is that in me which comes and goes in you. But in that statement by the great teacher Nanjuan, he didn't then turn it around and said, and that in you which comes and goes in me.

[03:19]

I would say that would complete the story. that in me which comes and goes in you and that in you which comes and goes in me. Thank you. That's where the tathagata is born. Now the actual Chinese is a little different where instead of saying me and maybe it's good that Cleary just said me but it actually says something like that in the great teacher which comes and goes in you. That and the great teacher, which comes and goes in you. Yes? Namaste has the same feeling for you? Yeah. Yeah. So... see, so clearly just makes it simpler, more accessible, rather than saying, that in the great teacher, which comes and goes in you, he says, that in me, more humble.

[04:36]

Just one second. And again, he didn't say that in you, which comes and goes in the great teacher. But I think that's also so. That's also where the Tathagata is born. Then the monk Lu Zhu says, yep, it is Lu Zhu. Then Lu Zhu said, what about that which doesn't come and go? And Nan Chuan said, that also is the mind, the mind, the womb. He clearly says, instead of womb, he says mind, like a gold mine. or a diamond mine. So the first response was, where is the womb of the Tathagata? It's that in me which comes and goes in you and that in you which comes and goes in me.

[05:41]

What about if there's not any coming or going? So you could say that which doesn't come and go in me That in me which doesn't come and go in you, and that in you which doesn't come and go in me, that also is the womb. So whether there's coming and going in me and you, there's a mutual inclusion. And if there's no coming and going, that could happen too, then that also is that mutual inclusion. And then he goes on, it gets a little bit more difficult. What's the jewel? Lu Zu asks. After Nan Xuan says what? That also is the womb. And then Nan Xuan called Lu Zu, you know, like he said, Lu Zu. And Lu Zu responded, yes.

[06:43]

And Nan Xuan said, go. You don't understand my words. That's kind of the rough part of the story. But maybe we don't understand, too. So we should also go. Thank you, Oscar. So that's another little drop from the ocean, which to me sounds like the same kind of teaching. Not kind of teaching, same teaching. And the tathagata can mean the thus come one or the thus gone one, the one who is gone, who goes, and the one who comes back. So the word tathagata also means going and coming.

[07:44]

going to realization and coming. The one who thus goes and the one who thus comes. So that's also played in there. But the thus come one, the one who goes and returns, realizes that there's really no going or coming. So both the coming and going in me and the not coming and going in me, which is in you. So again, I'm suggesting that I see the sutra being played out by these two. And I also say, I don't know so much about what led Anjuan to say, go, you don't understand. But that's what the story says. And I'm not going to say that to you. until a little later. Somebody said to me today, thank you for taking care of this place and this community.

[09:10]

And I said, you're welcome. And I could say to you, thank you for taking care of this place and this community, keeping it alive. The community is called the Community Jewel. Is there anything anyone wishes to bring up in the great assembly? Yes? When you were reciting what's in me, it comes and goes in you. It's one way, meaning it's unconditional giving.

[10:20]

So when you say what goes in you comes back in me, then it's a condition, you and me. Whereas it makes more sense to me, it's all... and what's giving, what's coming and going, it's all giving. So it's unconditional. The you, me, then it brings it into a... I agree this is about unconditional giving. I agree. However, there's no giving without receiving. Giving without receiving is conditional giving. I say, I give that to you. And because I gave it to you, you must receive it. And if you don't receive it, my gift didn't happen. No, it's not happening. Okay, so no giving. No giving is conditional giving.

[11:23]

It's not happening because I see there's a one. Yeah, well, so we've got conditional giving here. Congratulations. This is an example of conditional giving, which happens or doesn't happen. But unconditional, you can't really say. I mean, you can say it, but it's not true that unconditional giving isn't happening. I think unconditional giving is happening. Oh, I thought you said it wasn't. Unconditional is happening. But when we take unconditional and then we make it, okay, let's make it to a condition that it kind of... No, it's not making it to a condition. It's getting over the condition. For example, it's getting over giving and receiving. It's not just giving. It's not stuck in giving. That would make it conditional. Yeah, when I think of giving, I'm not... Yeah, my giving is no conditions. But there's nothing, the unconditional is not without conditions.

[12:31]

So giving without conditions, there's no such giving. There's only giving where there's receiving and gift. You can't have... So then I'm talking about receiving and gift. Okay. All right. Finally, we're on the same diamond. Yes. Well, it seems you are very interested in the flower adornment. And it's beautiful and interesting flavor of them. I just want to know why you're so interested. Why am I so interested? I think one of the main... I've been interested in it for a long time. About two years ago I found some notes from 1973 where I was talking about the sutra. So I've been interested in it and discussing it with people for more than 50 years.

[13:34]

However, I have not extensively gone into the scripture with people. People have been chanting the scripture during those 50 years, but aside from a Chinese teacher who was speaking in Chinese to mostly Chinese people, the sutra has not really been plunged into in the West. And I heard during those 50 years over and over that this scripture is very much influential of what the Zen school became in China. And although I heard that and other people have heard that, not everybody's heard it, but some people have heard it. I wanted people to actually see how the scripture is really the source of many of the stories of the school, like this one. I want people to see that this is a discussion, but actually, Nan Chuan's presenting the understanding of the sutra.

[14:37]

He might not have thought he heard the sutra and told us, but in fact, I see the sutra influencing him. And also, people don't necessarily know that the first case of this Zen koan, the Zen story collection, the first case is basically a quote from the sutra, from page 129 of this translation, of that translation. So much of what we actually are talking about in Chinese Zen is either directly or indirectly from the sutra. In Japan, I think it's somewhat different. Still, it's influencing, but to a great extent, it's influencing Japanese Zen through the Chinese teachers. The Japanese Zen, particularly our school, is more... more expressing the influence, the source of the Lotus Sutra on our school.

[15:44]

And so we did an intensive period of study at the beginning of or the middle of COVID where we studied that scripture because that scripture is so important to our school. I thought, well, how about take on the big one? And I thought, okay, I'm going to die pretty soon so probably we should start because it's going to take a while because it's so huge. So realizing that we haven't done it and it's so important to this particular form of Buddhism in some ways more important than the other schools like the Pure Land School or the or the Nichiren school, which is from the Lotus Sutra, or Tiantai Buddhism, or Shingon Buddhism, they're also influenced by this sutra. But their style of practice isn't so influenced. For example, there's a huge temple in Nara called Todai-ji, which means Eastern Great Temple.

[16:52]

or is it Daitoji? Anyway, this huge temple which has the largest bronze statue in the world and the bronze statue is a statue of the main teacher in the Avatamsaka Sutra. and the teachers, which is a very big teacher, the biggest bronze statue in the world, and it was sitting on a lotus, and on each lotus leaf there's a picture of the scene in Chapter 5 of the Sutra. So back in the 9th century, or the tenth century, the flower adornment scripture was sort of the dominant teaching of Japan. But then it changed, and I sort of wanted to recognize the importance of this scripture, which people, now I've told you that, but can you say, can you show, can you see how that's the case? I want people to be able to see this great influence.

[17:57]

And by seeing that, you understand better what these people are talking about. Like in that story, you wouldn't necessarily know that that's the teaching from the sutra. And also the first case here, you wouldn't know necessarily that's a quote from the sutra from one page 129. Well, I want people to know that. The Chinese characters are the same as the first story here. And then also, Just to remind you that after this first story of the Buddha ascending the seat and Manjushri says, clearly behold, the Dharma of the king of Dharma, of the sovereign of Dharma, The Dharma of the Sovereign of Dharma is thus. That's a quote from the sutra. But it doesn't say that he's quoting the sutra. It doesn't say that this is a reenactment of that scene. But it is. And then in the verse, written by the person who brought that case, that story up, to show the sutra in the Zen text, then he tells the story.

[19:05]

He said, the unique breeze of reality. Can you see it? That's the first line of his verse. The unique breeze of reality. What is it? Well, it's how you're included in everybody and everybody's included in you. That's the breeze of reality. Can you see it? You can't really see it with your ordinary eyes. And then he says, creation is constantly working her loom and shuttle. What's the loom? The loom is the whole universe. And the shuttle is each particular thing. And the whole universe with each particular are being woven together into a brocade. And this brocade has been woven from beginningless time. And now we incorporate the pattern of today, of this spring day. We incorporate into the ancient brocade. That's a little bit about the conditions leading me to, it's not so much that I'm interested in it, it's more than interest.

[20:13]

It's more like I'm in love. I'm in love with a wonderful sutra. I'm in love with a wonderful dharma. And I propose to you that our ancestors were in love with it too. And part of the way they expressed their love was by showing the teaching of the sutra in their daily life with their practitioner friends, by treating each other according to the teaching of the scripture. I'm in love with the ancestors, I'm in love with the sutra, and excuse me for saying this, probably shouldn't record this, but if you love me, you should love the sutra. And if you don't love me, go ahead and love the sutra anyway. That's the best way to love me, or one of the best ways.

[21:13]

Yes and yes? It just came to me that I feel like this sutra is classical music. Yeah. And I know that the Beatles listened to classical music. Yeah. I know that Miles Davis studied classical deeply before he was over into jazz. Yeah. And I know that old people like classical music. Yeah. Mostly. Yeah. And I just feel like, OK, I really respect and appreciate this. Yeah. And maybe someday I'll be into it. When you're old. Yeah. Shortly before you die, say, I probably should tell my friends about the sutra. I haven't done it for the last 50 years. Probably I should, too. I played a lot of classical music at my school. Yeah. Yeah, well, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I know it's great. Yeah, so thank you. And some people would say that the Zen teachings are classical teachings too. They might say that. But the Zen people actually were making jazz out of this classical music.

[22:20]

So the Avatamsaka Sutra is like classical music and the Zen school is like jazz. Or punk rock. And then Suzuki Roshi came to America and he did his best to do jazz for the young American students. He made jazz out of the classical music of ancient Zen. And now I'm doing jazz using classical music to do the jazz. But I'm not very good and I'm very old, so it's going to be pretty lousy jazz. However, I am enjoying it, even so. What we're doing here is inspired by classical and inspired by jazz. I'm not just inspired by the classical sutra, I'm inspired by the jazz of the ancestors. And I'm inspired to do something that's never happened before with you.

[23:24]

What we're doing here has never happened before. And someone might say, what happened before is better than this. That's what you often say compared to the classics, that we can't do anything as good as them. But our job is to go beyond the classics. Because if we stick in the classics, the tradition will die. So maybe out of this next eight years, we will have the materials for people to put together a new punk rock symphony. We'll see. We'll see. I was just talking to Charlie about the archive of the RDO talks. And if you go to the archive now, You know, if you go to rebanderson.org and you go to the teachings, then you go to the audio talks, there's like 552 talks in there.

[24:28]

But actually there's about 4,000 talks in the archive. So we talk today about opening it up. So pretty soon, maybe, you'll be able to go, and instead of just listening to 452, you can listen to 4,000 and blah, blah, blah. But also you'll be able to listen to, so funny, to Maya Wender's reading of this scripture. So you'll be able to listen to the scripture with your devices while you're walking and driving and cooking and doing yoga But probably not yet. Do they have underground Bluetooth speakers? Underwater Bluetooth speakers? So you might be able to even listen to it while you're swimming. So thank you, Charlie. And it's wonderful to listen to it. It's wonderful to read it.

[25:32]

And it's wonderful not to read it and not to listen to it. But we've been doing quite a bit of that already. So now it's a new phase where we read it, listen to it, discuss it, remember it, and find ways to apply it. And we can also question it. There's a chapter, chapter number 10. It's called, A Bodhisattva Asks for Clarification. And who is the bodhisattva who asks for clarification? the bodhisattva of great wisdom. Manjushri is asking questions, beautiful questions of a number of different great benevolent bodhisattvas. He's so good. So we get to learn how to ask, we get to get a course on how to ask questions

[26:33]

And then, you know, so asking questions is part of study of the scripture. The scripture is encouraging us to be great bodhisattvas and ask really good questions for the welfare of this poor suffering ocean world. That's a little answer, that's a little drop for you? Yes. With the sutra, is there a shift in thought from what had happened, what had been written in the past? You can say a shift. I would say one of the main things the sutra does So it's sort of the Mahayana, one of the key factors of Mahayana is a deep understanding that nothing has, I want to call it, any independent existence on its own.

[27:36]

In other words, everything is emptiness. That's a deep, deep truth of the great vehicle which bodhisattvas study. like the Heart Sutra and the other Prajnaparamita texts. And they're so wonderful. The sutra comes along and shows us that this emptiness, this lack of any basis to apprehend anything, it shows us how wonderful that is, how magnificent, how positive it is. Otherwise people see the great value of negating the existence of anything on its own. but they don't necessarily see how magnificent that is. This sutra shows the magnificence of space, shows the magnificence of emptiness. Like this sutra says, knowing that nothing whatsoever exists by its own being,

[28:52]

is to see Virochana Buddha. Virochana Buddha is, you can't see Virochana Buddha unless you understand that nothing has any existence on its own. When you do understand it, you see Virochana Buddha. Virochana Buddha doesn't necessarily look like that great Buddha in Nara. And it doesn't necessarily look like Romi But it could. It could look like Romy. It could even look like Kurt or Gene. That's how marvelous emptiness is, is that the fire china could look like any of you as much as any of you. That's part of what this scripture did. It's saying, like it says, everything is revealing this magnificent truth and there's nothing to this truth at all that you can get a hold of. And this truth is the truth that you can't get a hold of anything.

[29:59]

And that's so wonderful, the scripture is saying. Yes, thank you for your patience. I thought I heard you say something like we can manifest the Avatamsaka Sutra in our daily lives and bear witness of that. Maybe I'm adding a little bit. But then you said, I thought I heard you say, and then you can practice it with your practitioner friends. And I just wanted to clarify, that's all beings are practitioner friends. That's all beings, yeah. Mm-hmm. Our friends in themselves are not the practitioners. The practitioners are the practice. The practitioners are manifesting the whole works. That's the practitioners. But in other words, it isn't just you by yourself that are going to do this practice.

[31:05]

You're going to do this practice together with all of us. That's what I meant. Thank you for your question. That was a tie. Mary and Allison are in a photo finish. Not that I know of, but it might be. But if they are, they might just not have gotten very far yet. because it's going to take a while. But they might be working away at it. I've heard, I don't know if it's true, that Tom Cleary read the scripture in Chinese seven times. eighty scrolls.

[32:08]

He read seven times and then he started to translate. So I don't know if anybody, any Spanish speaker is reading the sutra and it's almost, it's just almost entirely in Chinese. There's almost no Sanskrit. So I don't know if any Spanish speaking scholars of Chinese Buddhism are working on the translation. And I don't know of any Germans or Portuguese. But we do have English. Yay! English did it. Tom Cleary did it. And also we had this other person named Dharmamitra, which means Dharma friend. And he is, I think, a student of the Chinese teacher who taught this sutra back in 1970. In Chinese he taught it. Sistemi prajas. It would be wonderful.

[33:09]

There you go. And then, Alison? The first Dharma talk I went to was taking that home in Santa Monica. And in that talk, we shared a teaching that touched me so deeply. I really believe they're using it here today. And the teaching was, I just wondered if it's related to the sutra. The teaching was, you hold a tangerine in your hand. You hold a tangerine in your hand and you look at it very carefully. You'll see that it's a miracle. But if you look very closely and see the tangerine is in your hand, maybe you've seen it before.

[34:13]

Yeah. And also, you might see that the tangerine includes the whole universe. In other words, the tangerine is a manifestation of the whole works. But you have to look at it for a while before you understand that, even though you've heard that teaching. The universe part is that it feels like a transmission happening. Yeah. Just . If Zizigurashi was here, he probably would say, keep drinking fluids. Anything else this afternoon? You're so welcome. Yeah, our job is to improvise on the classic teachings.

[35:30]

But it's hard to improvise on them if you never look at them. So let's look at them and improvise. you are all welcome to improvise on the great teachings for bodhisattvas. Because that's what they did. That's what the Mahayana was an improvisation on the earlier teachings. And it couldn't have happened without the earlier teachings. But it found nothing in the earlier teachings to get a hold of. And that's how it took the earlier teachings the next step. And then Albert Thomas, like a scripture in other scriptures, took the next step. Thank you so much. And now we can do our little prayer, our vow.

[36:40]

We vow that our intention equally extend to every being and place with the true merit of Buddha's way. Beings are numberless. We vow to save them. Afflictions are inexhaustible. We vow to cut through. Dharma gates are boundless. We vow to enter them. Buddha way is unsurpassable. We vow to become it.

[37:15]

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