Now, it says in the introduction, when the teachers are many, the line is confused. Another translation is, when the doctors are numerous, diagnosis is confused. The character for line or lineage is in there, but... In the context of doctors, diagnosis might make sense. When laws are issued, crimes are born. When rules are set up, trickery is born. Gregory Basin used to say, in the case of schizophrenia, it takes two to make one. Though curing disease where there is no sickness may be extreme kindness.

[01:17]

Another translation is, although the cure of sickness, I looked this word up, this word extreme, although the cure for sickness where no sickness exists may be, the word there means to injure, or to wound or to grieve. Although to cure sickness where no sickness exists is like wounded compassion or aching compassion or grieving compassion or rending compassion or wounding or wounded compassion, something like that. clearly translates to extreme, but the character actually means to wound or injure or grieve or distress. But not wounding compassion, but it's an adjective?

[02:22]

Well, you know, in Chinese, it can be an adjective. What else could it be? It could be an adverb. Ying, when it's Ying, it's a na, when it's Ying, a king. rending, injuring. Does it refer to the subject or the object? The subject. What's the subject? Well, it takes two. I don't know. Doesn't it take two? Well, usually, yeah. So which person does it refer to who is wounded? Or maybe the compassion is wounded.

[03:23]

Maybe the compassion itself is an aching compassion or... Could it be a verb of wounding kindness? Could it be a verb of kindness of object wounding kindness, injuring the compassion? Yeah, it could be that too. It could be like wounding the compassion or injuring the compassion. But it also may be more like an adjective, Anyway, I looked up that word for some reason and I was distressed to find out it means distressed. So, although curing sickness where there is no sickness may be extreme kindness or extreme compassion, how does going by the rule where there is a rule preclude citing a story?

[04:36]

Although the cure of sickness where no sickness exists may be aching or grieving compassion, when cases do exist, such cases are presented. So why not present such incidents? And here's the incident. Fa Yin pointed to a blind, and I guess this wasn't clear to everybody, that blind is like a curtain, a curtain that rolls up. But it's a curtain like in a door, I think. The entrance to the... the entrance to zendos in China were usually roll-up curtains. you know, roll up on a tube, like a scroll.

[05:42]

So I think one way to picture it is he walks up to the door, he's coming up to the door with a couple of attendants, or anyway, there's some monks around, he comes up to the door and he points to the door and they go and they raise it up, probably from two sides, so he can walk in. And he says, one gain, one loss. And I'd like to go to the verse right away tonight. Pines are straight, brambles are crooked, cranes are tall, ducks are short. In the age of the ancient emperors, people forgot about government and anarchy. Such peace.

[06:50]

A hidden dragon in the abyss. Such freedom. A soaring bird sheds its tether. Nothing can be done about the patriarch Bodhidharma coming from the West. Within, gain and loss are about half and half. Rays go along with the wind turning in the air. The boat cuts off the flow and reaches the shore. Spiritually sharp mendicant monks here observe Fa Yun's method. And so the first part is kind of a taking off of something which was in the... Well, I'll just read it.

[08:20]

The ancients couldn't help but give the forced name the fundamental lot. Pines are straight, brambles are crooked, herons are white, ravens are black. This originally comes from the heroic march scripture, and Tiantong changes in the verse to cranes are tall, ducks are short. Chuang Tzu said, the long do not have excess, the short do not have lack. Therefore, ducks' legs are short, They'd be miserable if you added to them. And though cranes are long, they'd be unhappy if you cut them off or shortened their legs. The proverb says, if you want to avoid misery, rely on your lot. Would it be only the people in the ancient... in the age of the ancient emperors who forgot about both government and anarchy?

[09:43]

Confucius says, in the West there is a great sage. He doesn't govern and yet there's no anarchy. Government and anarchy refer to gain and loss. The Third Patriarch said, gain and loss, right and wrong, let go of them at once. Another translation of government and anarchy is war and peace, I mean peace and war. In the age of the Asian emperors, people forgot about peace and war. So, in a sense, what is this saying, these first few lines? This is talking about, to some extent, no illness, right?

[10:47]

Why apply illness where there's no illness? You mean, why apply medicine where there's... Oh, excuse me, yeah, why apply medicine where there's no illness? Why not just leave, let ducks be short or have short legs and let cranes be tall. Let brambles be tangled and so on. Which essentially seems to be repeated down below where it says reeds go along with the wind turning in the air But then there's another thing here about gain and loss in such situations.

[12:05]

And he says, the commentator says, in the Chen hexagram of the Book of Changes, in the Chen hexagram is heaven. And heaven is all solid lines. Does everybody know what a hexagram looks like? Do you? Okay, so the first hexagram is six, excuse me, let's do it this way, six, six solid lines. Now, if you throw the coins or the sticks and you get nines, then those lines are called yang lines. Okay? So it says here that in the first, or rather, you can look up those lines, those lines are relevant to you if you have nines.

[13:16]

So a nine in the first place, if you look in the commentary, a nine in the first place, it says the hidden dragon is not to be employed. And a nine in the fourth place, a nine at the bottom, says a hidden dragon is not to be employed. Don't use the hidden dragon. Let the dragon be down at the bottom in the abyss. Leave it alone. But on the fourth line, when the dragon comes up, it says that one may leap in the abyss and there's no error. Or here it says, sometimes it leaps in the abyss. It's kind of the same situation, you see.

[14:21]

The dragon's down at the bottom. Well, actually, the bottom of the hexagram means abysmal. And the abyss is abysmal. There's no bottom to the hexagram, so down under the hexagram, so to speak. The base, deep down, there's a dragon and it's hidden. And it should not be used. But in the fourth position, it can leap and it's okay. All right? So the commentary in the Buddhist I Ching on the first line, on the hidden dragon is not to be used. It says, a dragon can be great or small, can shrink or expand.

[15:21]

Therefore, it is used to symbolize a quality of heaven. In the beginning, if the dragon, to be sure, In the beginning, it is a dragon to be sure, but because it is at the bottom, it's best to conceal it and not employ it. This refers to discovering great potential, yet working quietly and unassumingly to develop it inwardly. Now it skips over the intervening lines, which I'll just bring up, even though I didn't mention them, but you can see maybe why I didn't mention them. So at the beginning the dragon is hidden and shouldn't be employed. Then it says, seeing the dragon in the field, it is beneficial to see a great person.

[16:26]

So first the dragon is at the bottom, and should not be employed. Then later the dragon's out in the field and it's good to see a great person. Does that make sense? First, you shouldn't... There is great potential here, but it shouldn't... It should be kept concealed and worked inwardly. Then later, the great potential can be brought out and it's okay to be seen in the field. That's the second line. The third line, it says that then... a superior person works diligently all day and is careful at night. Danger is no error. So now even one step further, this great person is not only out in the field and seen and it's good, but it goes to work and works all day and even at night it's vigilant and aware of danger. Then the fourth line says,

[17:29]

in a sense, comes back to the beginning again. You're back into the abyss. And now it's okay to leap. In the beginning, where actions were proscribed, the dragon is in the deep abyss. Now, in the fourth stage, it is again in the abyss. Why is this? In the beginning it hid, now it leaps. The forces of time are not the same, but the appearances are temporarily the same. This is like a ruler abdicating or an official being lenient. It means retreating in order to advance.

[18:32]

So, in the beginning, the dragon's down in the abyss. It should be hidden and not employed. It's hidden and should not be employed. Then it's brought out into the field, and it's okay. It's beneficial, even. Then it really goes to work. In the day and even at night, it's vigilant. Now, it comes back, in a sense. It retreats. back to the beginning in a sense. It looks like the beginning, but it's different. It's different. Now it can go forward, but it retreats in order to advance. And then there's two more phases in this development. The next one, the fifth line, the dragon flying in the sky. It's beneficial to see a great person, just like before. First, the dragon was hidden and shouldn't be used. Then it was okay for the great person to be seen.

[19:40]

Now the dragon comes back and is employed, and then the dragon flies. And again, it's okay to see the great person. And finally, the proud dragon has regret. So again, the final stage of development, the dragon is very likely to be proud, and so firm strength, properly balanced. Well, I better not read this one, this is the, I'll get you mixed up. This is the Taoist interpretation, but anyway. At the final level, it's important to guard against arrogance. So... Maybe that's enough for discussion.

[20:47]

I just don't want to go through all that and still be arrogant. That's hard. Yeah, it seems like that would be something that would have happened early on. And through that whole process, the stages that, you know, towards the end... Oh, you can be arrogant. Yeah, you can be arrogant at any point along the way. And you... It isn't that you have to wait to the end to get arrogant. It's just that at the end, you have the best excuse to be arrogant. Now you really have something to be arrogant about. So... I don't know if it's, you know, what the likelihood of arrogance is at various stages of development. But all I can say is that it's a problem all the way through, but at the end it is basically your only problem. That is the problem. So the final problem of spiritual development is being proud or wanting to be famous and get some profit out of the deal.

[21:54]

Earlier phases you could also be concerned with getting profit and fame, but you're also concerned with other stuff, like trying to get other stuff too. Therefore, since you're still trying to get the other stuff, you're not so famous. But when you're not interested in getting the other stuff, you get quite famous. And also you can get rich too on being not interested in money. People give money to those people. So the potential is greater. The potential... I'd say the potential is greater and you have more reason to be arrogant and think you've done a good job. You have, in a way. So anyway, the final problem that most spiritual teachers have is the problem with being arrogant. you know, aware of what they've attained. So the big deal about Buddhas is Buddhas give up their attainment and come back to the ground. Is that the fourth stage you're talking about, going back, it's taking a step backward to advance?

[23:02]

That's part of it. But even in this final stage, to have regret is another way to step back. in a sense, to have regret over attainment. So case 11 of this book is about Zen sickness. And you can see that as the development gets higher and higher, and you get purer and purer, all the more reason that you would think, well now, this must be good enough. And the higher you get, the more reason, I mean, the more the more justification you would have to think that this was good enough, because it is getting better and better. But the paradox or the irony is that to camp out or to settle down in advanced attainment is a worse illness than to camp out in almost no attainment at all. Because if you have very little attainment and you settle in it, you're going to get in trouble fast.

[24:07]

Because it actually isn't very good at all. It won't hold up to almost anything. But if you have quite a high attainment, and you camp out in it, I mean, almost no one will notice that you're camping out, including you. Because it's so high, it doesn't have any kind of like signs of, it doesn't even have any signs of camping out. You're really in trouble. No one can cure you, almost no one can even spot the disease. The only way you can spot the disease is to notice that you haven't come back to the ground. But, you know, it's hard to come back to the ground when you're not on the ground. Especially when there's almost no signs of not being on the ground. But this case is not about that final stage. This case is about, in a sense, they're saying, this is being suggested, it's about like the beginning and this middle stage.

[25:15]

It's about this early stage where you've got potential. So you've got here two good monks in a way. And I don't know, there's various possibilities here. Either they're both at the beginning stage where there's potential, and one of them moves and the other one doesn't, and therefore the one who moves loses, and the one who doesn't move gains. But the other possibility is they're both at the fourth stage, and the one who doesn't fly, or the one who doesn't leap loses, and the one who does gains. There's various possibilities here. But what's this about in your own practice? And there's other interpretations too, which you can bring, but anyway, looking at the I Ching.

[26:16]

By the way, this man who wrote the verse, Tian Teng, was into the I Ching quite a bit. So, that's why he, I mean, that's why using the I Ching to interpret his imagery here about the hidden dragon and the soaring bird makes kind of sense. He probably was thinking about this hexagram when he said that. Well, it would be good to know whether you're kind or reprehensible. Yeah, that's true. Yes? When I read the two lines, reeds go along with the wind, turning the air, and the boat cuts off the flow and reaches the shore.

[27:20]

Is Stuart on the floor somewhere back there? Oh, there he is. It reminded me of why one has to fan. The air is everywhere. Why can't I fan? So now the boat is the fanning. The boat is the fanning? Yeah. And it came back to me to the case where I felt like these two months were... so cooperative and so undifferentiated. There were these two. I was reading the Art of Zazen by this article that Kattegiri did where he said za in Chinese means two people sitting in the universe. And then I read this and I had that sense of these two mugs doing exactly in some sort of unity and rolling up the blind in a sense of illumination, the blind meeting.

[28:28]

And at Brianne's comment, one gain, one loss, was almost like saying, you know, don't get lost in the fourth stage. Don't be so perfect, so pure. The two of you are so stepping up in unity. So you think Fayen's method is to say to these people, don't get lost in purity? Is that what you think? Yeah, I mean, they were so good. You know, he pointed to something, and they did it so flawlessly with sort of a loss of individuality or a loss of self, and it was a kind of quality. It's just an image that came up, and I read the two of those. Went at the same time, roll up the blunt, but there was a... So are you saying that he didn't feel like he was sort of saying that one monk gained and one monk lost, but more like they both gained and lost?

[29:30]

Is that the way you saw it, that they were kind of on a par rather than differentiating between these two people? Yeah, I felt that he was saying somehow remember the both. I mean, it's lovely to have the reeds going along with the air and there's no differentiation and everything is in harmony. But remember, someone's got to cut across the floor and maybe take a stand and maybe gain, maybe loss, but that's the story of our life. And the same way that the case affected me, there was a sort of an unreal kind of harmony to these two months going back and putting the blind in and... Like there was some way in which there was then sickness implied there for me. And then he says, one gain, one loss. Although one gain, one loss doesn't really follow my reasoning too clearly.

[30:32]

It somehow felt like it was like, get in the boat. Don't get lost in perfection. Do you agree with the kind of view that he's pulling them back into the world of gain and loss? Yes. He's encouraging them to give up their attainments and come back to the ground. I mean, I was seeing the blind as somehow a symbol or metaphor for illumination or enlightenment. As you compare these two lines, they walk the same but don't step the same, and then the line, he divides the body under the sword, you know, in the commentary on the verse.

[31:51]

And how does that feel to you? I didn't get that. These two. It seems like the lines within being a lot are half and half. support that feud with Mark Willis? Within Gannon Laws, they're about half and half. What do you mean, half and half? How does that strike you, about half and half? In this situation, Gannon Laws are about half and half. It suggests that actually the only way I can construe the law, which is otherwise kind of puzzling, is that gain and loss is a portion to each half and half.

[32:57]

One gain, one loss, a portion half and half. A portion half and half? Distributed half and half. One gain, one loss. Distributed half and half. Do you mean half is gain and half is loss? Is that what you mean? Half is gain, half is loss for each. Each one is half. Each person is half gain and half loss. Yeah? Six of one, half of the other. Right. But Stuart's point is that it applies to each of them. Is that what you mean? That's what's being said here. Rather than one monk gained and one monk lost. In both cases, it's six of one and half a dozen of the other. Also, isn't there a relativity of gain and loss?

[34:01]

Gain depends on loss. It's like, you know, the battles are crooked by two straight. Gain is defined by loss, doesn't depend on gain. They depend on each other. They end up being without loss. Right. So he's cutting off the flow. It's like going beyond the line of a lot of stuff. It seems like he's actually trying to define gain and loss, going beyond just the relativity. So there's one side of it. There is gain. There is loss. So one side is, in this case, there seems to be gain and loss 50-50, and they're relative, and you feel he's also trying to show what gain and loss is. I'm reminded of what Kuchiyama Hiroshi says, that gain is a collusion and loss is a likeness. So we kind of turn around. Yes?

[35:04]

I'm hearing them being separate first, gain and loss. To win some, lose some. To win a thing, any time a thing is won, it's lost. Right. Yes. Just kind of in the commentary on the verse, going along with the leads and the boat cutting off the flow, we said that these two lines mark out the gain and loss. In some ways, you know, in some contexts, you would think of cutting across the flow as going beyond gain and loss. But here, the commentary, at least, is suggesting that it's within the realm of gain and loss. Yeah, one way to see it is that the flow of the river is gain and loss.

[36:10]

And the boat cuts across the flow and gets to the other shore. So there's a cutting through gain and loss. Mm-hmm. On the other hand, or at the same time, there's this other thing about resting in your lot. And your lot is gain and loss. So it may be that part of the dynamic here is that the way to cut through gain and loss is to accept your lot if you happen to be in the realm of gain and loss. And so part of the situation here, you know, thinking about, like, we're in this situation and we may soon be in another situation. We may, for example, get really sick any minute, or I don't know what, become poor, or we may change our state radically one way or another.

[37:16]

And so one approach you might have would be, well, I don't know what one approach. Anyway, what's the best approach given that your situation may change and you may be in other states? And so I think part of our concern is how not to get stuck in the various states that are coming to us. We're going to go through states, and those states could be judged as gain and loss. Now, they will be judged as gaining loss, most likely. How are we going to cut across the ups and downs that are coming up for us when we get relaxed and then get tense? When we get twisted and choked, what are we going to do? What's the best way to proceed? First, accept your situation. Yeah, rely on your own lot.

[38:19]

Rely on your own lot. Is there any better way to cut across? And in some way, maybe there's also here the issue of that sometimes cutting across is to be hidden and work inwardly, and sometimes to cut across is to leap up. Yes. Well, it also seems like if he said out loud to these two people, one gain, one loss, you don't know which one you are. And so it's like, it's just turning. And it seems like not knowing which one you are is one way to go through. Yeah, I had the sense it was almost like he was saying, no matter what, gain and loss. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. This line, they walk the same but don't step the same, seems to be what?

[39:24]

Seems to be what? In the added saying. I know, but seems to be what? It seems to argue against this point. Seems to be arguing against the point that they're both 50-50? Well, yeah, it says they walk the same, but don't step the same. Maybe the translations. Yeah, the next one is he defines the body under disorder. Right. So I agree. But that's what the case they're doing. They are the same in the beginning of the case, and then he's saying, what did he say? There is gain and loss here. Marlene? My experience of gain and loss is that they're exactly the same, that I suffer either way. And so I'm not sure how to cut through that except to recognize that they are the same. I don't see a difference.

[40:25]

You don't see how to cut through except to see that they are the same? I don't know what it means to cut through, because they are the same, but I don't know what it is to cut through. Cutting through means to become free of them. If I don't see them as separate from each other, If you don't see them as separate from each other, then you see them as one thing. And then if you see them as one thing, you don't have a problem. But when you see them as two things, then can you cut through that? And the answer is yes, you can. And part of what we have here is the possibility that we have before us an indeterminate sentence.

[41:43]

I can't even say infinite, but I might as well say infinite. But an indeterminate infinite, because it's infinite in sometimes appearing not infinitely. It's infinite. It's infinite. It's dynamic. It's infinite and dynamic. It sometimes appears like it's going to end any minute. In other words, we have an indefinite, infinite opportunity here of gain and loss. We're going to be involved in gain and loss probably, basically, as far as I'm... You might as well consider that you're going to be involved in gain and loss forever. Don't plan on it ever ending. Yes? Is that the same thing as just realising that everything is changing all the time? Is it different, you say? Is it the same? No, it's not the same. It's a little different. It's saying everything is changing all the time and it's going to keep doing that, it's not going to stop doing that, and you're going to have to be around for that.

[42:51]

And so why don't we right away adopt the best possible approach to our indefinite involvement in a world of gain and loss? Why don't we just right away, as soon as possible, adopt the best attitude, the best path, given that that's basically what's going to be going on indefinitely? Even if things get worse, they're not going to stay worse. They're going to get better again. So you can't even just keep going down. There's gonna be gain. You're gonna go like this forever. So what's the best approach under those circumstances? Well, let's adopt that as soon as possible. The word that keeps coming to my mind is, in that process, surrender. Mm-hmm, surrender. Which is similar to accepting your one's own lot. which is similar to not being concerned about anarchy or government or war or peace.

[44:03]

Is the boat coming off the floor the same as the breeze going along? Is it the same? It's the, what is it? It's the, well, it's a compliment, but it's, yeah, it's a compliment or it's like the, it's like, yeah, it's a compliment. It's like the strict side of being flexible. Flexibility and softness is very strict. You can't like, you know, like, stand up now and walk around the room in a relaxed, flexible way. You can't do that unstrictly. If you do, people will say you're not relaxed. We can all see somebody who's relaxed, and there's a very strict criterion for that.

[45:11]

So, strictness and gentility, or uprightness and gentleness, go together. One is cutting across the flow. One cuts through the flow of gain and loss. The other shows that the way to cut through flow is to be flexible. Is that basically what the path is? This is to approach this case, by the way, from the point of view of this case, suggesting to us a path for it, an attitude towards a life of gain and loss. What's interesting is the I Ching lines that he mentions in the verse, if you look at what that in turn changes into, exactly what you're talking about, it changes into wind, and the commentary in this I Ching on wind is to be flexible and obedient, but to fly very low and softly penetrate. It kind of picks up the same imagery.

[46:17]

Yes. I'm a little interested by the analogy between... Did you say you're a little interested? I'm interested by the analogy that he puts forth as a Taoist about the ancients not being concerned with government or anarchy. As a metaphor for... the bluest idea of original nature. It's a fairly stocked Daoist line. I think you talked about the agents did not get involved with creating laws because that just created criminals for original sake and such. That wasn't necessary at the time of the agents of the Virgin. It was embodied in government. So what's the relationship between not being concerned about war and peace or government and anarchy?

[47:39]

What's the relationship with that and being concerned about world peace? How do those two go together? You mean concerned about world peace? Well, you know, like right now, we're on the verge of another war, it looks like. And then earlier, a couple of years ago, we got into another war, and some people here got concerned about war and peace. So what does working for peace have to do with not being concerned with war and peace? What's the relationship there? Is there a contradiction there? It seems like being peaceful with yourself first. finding some peace where you're losing the war or not losing the war. You're not backed up in that game anymore, so there's a kind of peace there.

[48:41]

So one of the entrances to the realm of peace is to not be concerned. One of the awarenesses that enters one into peace into tranquility, into extinction of greed, hate, and delusion, one of the doors is not being concerned about anything. It isn't that you aren't concerned with anything. Human beings are concerned with things. That's how we have gain and loss. But the door into peace for a human being who's concerned about things who's involved in getting lost, the door to peace, is to not be concerned. That's one of the doors. There's also the matter of the ancient emperors looking for that state, or looking for the quality of the ancient emperors, where, actually, there's not yet one peace.

[49:44]

What's the difference between looking for that quality and using that quality as awareness of that quality as a door? Do you see a difference there? Were you trying to make a difference between those? You said there's also. Well, I think there's the ancient emperor has some censure over trying to take the original mind The language is not different, but it's a different way of approaching the mind. Uh-huh, right. What I have to understand is that we should have really kind of a model of how we can be. Or like our source. It's like a source, right? The source. Or vacuum. Mm-hmm. Yes? Also, it isn't just that the ancient emperors were concerned.

[50:47]

The people in the time of the ancient emperors, there's an issue of then the ancient emperors were just. and ordered society. I mean, because the society was orderly and the situation was just and there wasn't war, then people didn't think about it. They didn't think about it because they weren't in that situation. And so I think that's the sense in which they don't think about it. I think the entry is into being in the situation where there's perfect justice, when there's perfect justice. we can, on the one hand, not be concerned with anarchy in government, and at the same time, we can be concerned, not think about anarchy in government, and at the same time, be concerned about all of it. Okay. I was wondering why the government was born here.

[51:48]

Yeah, why was it born here? Nothing can be done about Oh, yeah, somehow, what is it? After all that, still, you can't stop that guy from coming over from India. You have the, you know, what is it you have... you know, the pines are straight and so on, and then you got these hiding dragons and these leaping dragons. And then, next thing is, nothing can be done about bodhidharma coming from the West. Yeah, but also, it's also nothing, you can't stop, you can't stop gain. You can't stop this wonderful thing from happening. Everything's going pretty well, and then now on top of that they have a Zen master coming to make things even more interesting.

[52:57]

That's one way to read it. Everything was okay before he came, and then he came and told them that it was also, but in a different way, even a better way. And then after that things could really get bad. And they did. So I think one thing we could do from here is we could check to see if everybody understands, and then if everybody does, then we could have a little workshop, and people could bring forward a few examples of where they can't do this practice. Where they can't do this practice? Yeah, I mean, somebody might have some actual practical examples of where they just don't see how to do it, actually. Yes? Yeah, so I thought maybe you would. Before you give it, I wanted to know if people understand so that we can now take some practical examples from it.

[54:01]

Yes? I'm a little concerned about being unconcerned. It just didn't feel right when you said that. What about what Stuart just said? Did you hear what he said? Yeah, but it didn't help. So tell us about it. Well, it seems dangerously close to indifference, or could be indifference. Is it the same as saying that being unconcerned is a letting go of the concerns that you're aware of, being concerned about war or peace? Let's see. Well, first of all, before I respond to that, I want to say that we have to not be afraid to get dangerous. They're close to indifference. I mean, you can't, like, stay so far away from indifference that there's no danger.

[55:05]

There is danger at various points along the way here. For example, they mentioned that there was danger as you evolved to the third stage, there started to be danger, you had to be vigilant for it. So it's not a problem that we're dangerously close to indifference. We just need to be clear about what indifference is. What's indifference? What's the difference between indifference and not being concerned? Yes. Can you articulate what you think the difference might be between what indifference is and what's wrong with it, and is there some kind of lack of concern that might not be indifferent? The first thought that came up with indifference was suppression. Suppression. Yeah. Right. Also in Buddhism we have a term called equanimity. which is not the same as indifference, right? So, when somebody spits in your face, and then somebody kisses you in the face, to not notice the difference between the two, or suppress the sense of difference, or to actually not respond differently, actually, that might be like indifference.

[56:19]

to be so numb or so out of touch, that might be more like indifference. Do you have anything more you want to say about indifference? Yeah, the sentence that just came was the sixth level, which was arrogance. Right. You might be so arrogant that you're indifferent. Whereas equanimity, I think, is more like no matter how you get pushed around, You, you know, you turn, you're like the pearl in the bowl. Pearl in the bowl, yeah. You turn, you keep turning right side up no matter what they do to you. What you do get pushed around by things. And yet there's some uprightness and some equanimity even so. And part of the way you turn right side up all the time is because you're flexible. Your uprightness and your strictness has something to do with your flexibility. And your flexibility has to do with your lack of concern.

[57:23]

What? Within that movement, is there a relying one? If you're relying, then you get stuck. Is part of this the fact that you can... There's a gain and loss in the moment, but I think what happens is... If we're facing upward in terms of gain, we look towards a future moment that we'll continue to gain, or if we lose, we'll... In other words, it has to do with creating a mental structure, looking into the future about it, rather than you could sense the gain and loss in the moment, but not to continue with it. That's my understanding of this. So you're not indifferent to the gain and loss in the moment, but you don't become... You don't project it. You don't make it more than what it is. In other words, it's a trend. I gave it a trend. You don't continue the trend. You just see what it is at that moment. That's my understanding.

[58:25]

What were you thinking about that? Lynn? I just wanted to say that I think, to me, the indifference represents apathy and really not being aware of what's involved. as opposed to lack of concern is perhaps a lack of being overly concerned. It doesn't mean that you're not aware. It involves awareness. And it also tells you that you have to maybe detach a little, have that peace within yourself so that you can perhaps do something about the situation. Because if you're overly concerned, you'll lose that peace within yourself. And if you don't have that, you can't really be of any help.

[59:26]

Well, you can't be as much help. You can be somewhat helpful. The biggest schnook in the world can be helpful. But to be as helpful as you can be, it's nice to be flexible. So actually, maybe rather than get to perfect understanding, we could have a few practical examples and see if we can apply what we've learned so far. Evelyn? As I sit here, I have a habit of clenching my shoulder. And so... I'm just sitting here, and I'm listening, and I'm breathing. So I'm breathing, and for a brief moment, my shoulder just whipped and clapped with it, and then all of a sudden, it just clenched again.

[60:28]

It's constantly doing this. And part of the reason I did it, It keeps quenching because as soon as it lets go a little bit, I have a little bit of relief. And so I continue. So I get focused on it again. And it's like, oh, keep going. And it's hard. It's hard when you have pain and it starts to go away. to not want it to continue. And it's very subtle and it's just a very minor example. It's kind of emotional because it's constant. It affects my ability to fully be present with everything else that's going on.

[61:34]

I would like to reach that kind of state where I can be not so concerned with wanting this state to go away. Anyway, that's all I'm saying. It's just a practical example that I constantly... And I can't really explain it. It's not the kind of pain that, you know, not an intense, intense pain, just this very bizarre kind of circumstance that comes from a lot of awareness, my own levels of stress. So I think it's very, this thing with your breath, and you're trying, I'm trying not to concentrate on my shoulder, not to care so much about my shoulder, I just stay with this breath, and then as soon as it drops a little bit, I just immediately, I can't stay with my breath anymore.

[63:02]

I am staying with my breath, but my mind is on my shoulder. So how do I not care? How do I, how do I do that? I think I should not deny that you're staying in relationship with knowledge. I, I... Maybe, maybe that's it. I don't, I don't, I probably do not take pride most of my life in meditation when I actually kind of focus on it, the knowledge that it is that we do. Is it like when it says, every word I consider detachment from gain and loss and forgetting right and wrong to be superior, but Fayan runs right into it. He runs into the ocean of right and wrong. The pit of gain and loss and makes a living there. Can you make a living there?

[64:03]

Yeah, I think that's a good thing to bring up. My feeling is that there is somebody who is already making a living in the middle of the situation that you described. So there's this... this subtle, but when it goes on forever, it can be as painful as anything for it, this subtle emulation. And there's even an attempt to not care and not be concerned. But, and there's even an attempt for us to look for how to do that, how to not be concerned or how to not be caught in this But there's some, there's already, there is, there already is not being concerned.

[65:17]

And it's your life. Your life is going on. Your life is not concerned. It is going on in the midst of the situation. And your life can be, is fayen. That's his method. His method is your life. And he can demonstrate your life. because he goes right into your life. So the one who goes into your life is pa-yen, or that's your life. Your life is actually somehow miraculously going on in the middle of this nauseating, annulating situation, which includes this coming and going of pain And also coming and going of wanting to understand how to do some things that might help it or free you from it. If you go into the Zendo, you could read the people's minds, you'd find out that many of them are inside screaming, inside.

[66:26]

But you look at them and you think they all look very calm. And the ones who are screaming inside but sitting there, even moving a little bit or a lot anyway, the ones who are sitting there in pain look very alive to the observer. Anyway, there is that method. That method is there in all of us right now. We do not have to import that method. It is actually already fully embodied in us at this moment. That method which tolerates our situation. And our situation is that we are intolerant of our situation. And practicing tolerance of our situation is a way for us to in some ways, approximate or develop confidence in a perfect tolerance which is already going on.

[67:34]

That's what I have to say. It's talking about wading into the shit. So, I said before that Lotus Sutra says, "...practicing all virtues," which in other words means, "...weight into this shit." Wade into this gain and loss, gain and loss, gain and loss. Wade into, how can I get out of this gain and loss? Wade into, it's painful to be in gain and loss. Wade into, oh, I wish I could get that. It's so close, or it's so good, it's almost perfect. Why can't it be a little bit more perfect? It could be better. Why don't they turn the lights on? Wait into that. Not go into it to accomplish the greed, but wait into the greed. Don't be greedy.

[68:50]

Wait into the greed. Don't be angry. Wait into the anger. Wait into it. Wait into the shit. That's called practicing all virtues. And be upright. Don't be upside down. Don't get pushed to the right or the left. You already are pushed to the right or left. Wade into the right or left and be upright in the right or left. And be flexible. You are flexible. You are flexible. We are flexible. We're changing all the time. Those three things. Wade into the shit. Be upright and flexible. Be upright and gentle. If you see those, you'll see Buddha in every situation. And this does not require doing anything. We actually already are in the shit. We actually are always upright and we always are flexible because we're always changing according to the circumstances. But we have to fan ourselves. We have to appreciate what's happening.

[69:54]

We don't have to do anything. We're doing plenty. We're non-stop doing stuff. And as a result of what we do, part of what we do is we're constantly judging gain and loss, and judging suffering in relative ways to the gain and loss, and pleasure in relative ways to the gain and loss, and trying to get out of the gain and loss. We're doing all this, all of us, basically all the time, and Buddhas are not any different. Because Buddhas come, they could be different, But they wouldn't be Buddhas, they would just be highly evolved spiritual beings who hadn't gotten as high as a Buddha, because as soon as you go up to Buddha you come down to prove, to test that this isn't a selfish trip, that you can be an ordinary human being. And in fact we are.

[70:54]

And you don't choose the way you come down, You don't choose what shit to go into. You have to wait. And be given the shit that you're given. Like tonight, you know, I... Like tonight, before I came to class, my daughter vomited a lot of spaghetti. You know, I've been waiting for that to happen for years. You know? Because that's the kind of shit that I'm prepared to deal with. You know? You know the thing about the you know, don't do anything to me. Break my arms and legs, cut my head off, burn me, whatever, but don't throw me into the briar patch. You know? So for some people, you know, do anything you want to, but don't make me clean up vomit. So that's what I would say. If they captured me, I'd say, Go ahead, give me that electric shock treatment. You know, drill my teeth, you know. Kill my family and, you know, destroy Buddhism, but don't make me, don't make me, don't make me clean up vomit.

[72:03]

So anyway, tonight I got to vomit, and I cleaned up with my hands, you know. Oh, my God. I said, I said, Risa, look at this. You want to smell it? Even my daughter almost vomited again. So I didn't get to chisel. I had to wait to get the opportunity. For me, that's easy. That's easy. For some of you, that might be hard. That's how I got good at that, because my mother always used to get me to clean up the vomit of everybody in the house. She'd be out there trying to So I was just the vomit collector. So for me that's easy, but there's other things that are probably easy for you that are hard for me. The point is you don't get to choose which one it is. You don't get to choose. You've got to, it's whatever, you know. And sometimes there's a long time between the ones that you, the shit that you like to get into, that you know everybody else thinks is shit, but you don't mind, actually.

[73:14]

So that's the kind of ones you want to go into. But there's other kinds that aren't even that bad, you know. If they were worse, it would be easier on you. It's the kind of not-so-bad ones that sometimes really bother us. Some people are sissy for real bad ones. Other people are sissy for the not-so-bad ones. But the point is, you don't get to control. The point is, whatever it is, wade into it. Wade into it. And be upright and flexible. But if you don't wade into it and you're upright and flexible, that doesn't work. And if you decide what you're going to wade into, that's not it either. You've got to wade into what people are presenting you, what sentient beings are presenting you, what your body is presenting you. And you are wading into it. So again, it's not really doing anything. All these three practices of wading into the shit, being upright and being flexible and gentle, they're not doing anything.

[74:22]

They're just seeing Buddha in this. That's all they are. They're just not cringing at your life. They're just understanding that this is the manifestation of ultimate reality now. And also, if you don't want to face it now, remember that you're just going to get a million, trillion more examples, so why don't you start soon? Because if you start soon, you're going to get good at it. Now, while you can get good at it, get good at it, because... You're in a good shape now to get good at it. You've got all this recommendation for doing this and you can hear it and put it into practice. So later when you can't even, if you really get totally thrown for a loop and the stuff you're into, you can't even think. You know, one time I was really in trouble. It was right after I got ordained and I was in a state where I could hardly know what was going on and I put my okay saw on.

[75:28]

And after I got it on, I thought, my God, I got that on me. and the knot on my okese in those days was a more complicated knot than the knot that most of you know now but my hands learned how to put it on you can learn how to do things so that when you're like totally your brains are blown out you can do it there's a practice you can do with your brains blown out and your brains are going to get blown out Everything's gonna get blown out, so learn now this way of wading into the stuff and being upright because it's, again, it is, that will always be true no matter what happens to you. You will always be in it, you will always be upright, and you will always be changing. You'll always be soft enough, no matter what your state, to change into your next thing. If you can adopt this, this will carry you through whatever you're gonna go into. So as soon as... And there's not going to be an end to this.

[76:33]

Don't plan on this stopping. If it does, okay, fine. But actually, don't plan on it. Assume it's not going to end. I haven't heard anybody say it ends anyway. But there is freedom from it for those who start to apply themselves as though it weren't going to end. As though the problems you have now, you'll always have. If you accept that teaching, you can become free of the problems you have now and the problems you have later. But if you postpone it and don't put this practice into effect now, maybe you won't be able to do it later. I don't know. You can't be sure. So right now, let's try to Discover, it's not something we do, but discover how we're already doing it. It's already under our nose. Because you're alive, you see, that's the proof that you're doing it.

[77:43]

That is your realisation. But are you noticing it? Are you aware of it? Are you witnessing it, your actual life? Which does wade into the situation. It wades into it minutely and completely every moment. And it is even willing to wade into a painful situation. It is willing to wade into painful, tiny little... It is willing to wade into a life that feels pain over tiny, tiny little discrepancies. Which is willing to be upset about the difference between an A and a B. Yeah? When's the time to let go of wading in? Being upright and Being upright and gentle is the process of letting go and not being stuck in whatever position you're in at the moment.

[79:01]

So it's not just waiting in. It's not just being in the world with all sentient beings. It's not just that. Human beings are also upright. Human beings are incandescent. and constantly adjusting appropriately to circumstances. The path of practice is much too fast for anybody to be able to do it. You cannot do this. It's too fast. You could never do it fast enough. That's why basically Zen practice is just being physically together and picking it up by the body. You cannot do this. But you are doing it. And you're doing it extremely fast. That's why if you try to do it, you would always be... You never could catch it. But you don't have to catch it.

[80:03]

You just need to notice... that you're trying to catch it, or that you're at some distance from it, or some discrepancy from it, and that's all you, again, that you're doing, all you have to do is notice that, and the gap is sealed, the wound is healed. This language that's always used to makes it very difficult because the language is pointing to practice. And all of these words are pointing to something to be done. And I know that you keep saying there's nothing to be done. But the language tells us over and over there's something to be done. And I hear you say, we're all doing it anyway. And I say to myself, well, what are we all doing here then? We're doing it anyway. What are we sitting here for? What are we all here to find out about? Well, yeah, we have to have that side. Otherwise, we have to have the side that looks like it's something to be done. Okay?

[81:05]

But you need to balance that with you are being done. You are being practiced. But if we just say you're being practiced, then the way people hear that is, well, then I'll just sit there and I'll be practiced. But if you think that way, then you're doing the thing called thinking of being practiced. And you're not noticing that you naturally do things. But for you to do things is not doing anything. It is inexorable. It is your nature. You don't have to do it. But if you don't Notice that you're doing things and get caught in that way of seeing things. You're a denying part of your nature. It's not really that you're doing anything. But you have to remember also that you're being done, you're being practiced into being a person who thinks of doing things. You have to work with that dynamic. We must work with a very dynamic situation. We must basically... in a sense, get ripped to shreds by how dynamic our existence is.

[82:09]

But we don't have to make it that way. Life is that dynamic that it completely, you know, it basically destroys us moment after moment. But not destroys us like eliminates us. It just completely transforms us. Life transforms us. It's so dynamic. But it doesn't transform us according to our little idea of transformation. It transforms us according to our actual life. And that's why we don't have to be concerned. We don't have to be concerned because it is such an intense, brilliant, dynamic situation. That it, you know, no matter how concerned we are, we can't touch it, we can't modify it, we can't do anything. And yet, we must appreciate this. Otherwise, we don't appreciate it. And if we don't appreciate it, we feel really out of sorts and then we can do really bad stuff. Which again, you know, isn't really that way, but somehow we're just trying to align everything and get it back into a chord and to appreciate the way things are.

[83:19]

But we don't do it by doing things, except that we think that way, so we have to admit it. So I have to say it that way once in a while. Otherwise, when you think that way, then you'll think, whoops, I'm not supposed to be doing this. And then he goes, do not doing it. But you're not supposed to or not supposed to, you just do think that way. And if we somehow raised a person to not think that way, then as soon as they found somebody who taught them to think that way, they would pick it up like that. Well, if they didn't anyway, they just wouldn't be a human being. So if you wait too long to teach people language, they can't learn, and they spend the rest of their life basically, I don't know what, living in a laboratory with linguists studying them. Or, you know, just being not human and yearning to be human. So fortunately, we're caught in all this stuff of thinking in terms of doing things. So we have to recognize and pay homage to that deity.

[84:25]

Is there a goddess or god? Probably Apollo, huh? What's the goddess or god of language and duality? It seems that if there's any doing in what you're saying, it has somewhere to do... You keep saying you have to be aware of it. And there's sort of a plea in there, if we're doing anything, it's to cultivate an awareness of the fact that there's nothing to do. No, not an awareness that there's nothing to do. An awareness that you think you're doing things. I'm not saying, don't think about that there's nothing to do. I'm telling you that there's nothing to do, but don't think about that. Think about the fact you think there is things to do. that you're thinking that way all the time. And that's not something to do, that's just something to admit. So it says in this thing, you know, it says, put the Buddha's seal on your three activities. All day long you're thinking, you're talking, and you're making postures.

[85:31]

And you think these are doing something. This is going to go on. It doesn't say, eliminate these three kinds of karma. It says, put the Buddha's seal on these three kinds of karma. Put the Buddhist seal on your body, on your postures, on your voices, on your vocalizations, and on your thoughts. It doesn't say do these three things, and it doesn't say stop doing these three things. It doesn't say do karma, it doesn't say stop doing karma. If you tell people to do karma, it's redundant. If you tell them not to do karma, it's just stupid. And telling them not to do karma is another kind of karma. So, you're going to do karma. That's set. But you can put the Buddha seal on your karma. What's the Buddha seal? The vows. The vows. And what's the vow? The vow is to practice all virtues, to be upright, and to be gentle. That's the Buddha virtue.

[86:33]

That's the Buddha seal. To put on everything. You don't really do anything. You don't... you don't really move, you don't really act, but you do definitely, you know, think that you act. You do definitely think that you speak. You definitely believe that you're doing things. You do believe it, you do think so, and there is the reality of thinking that you're doing things. That's so. But you're not doing anything. But therefore we don't tell people not to do things. We don't tell people to not do things because they're not doing them. And we don't tell them not to do things because they're going to continue to do what they're not doing. They're never going to stop. Because you can't stop people from doing what they're not doing. There's no way to stop what's not happening. So people are going to continue to be involved non-stop in creating what's not happening and there's no way to stop it. There's no way to stop something that doesn't exist. So we don't put energy into trying to stop what's not happening.

[87:37]

Rather, put the Buddhist seal on what's not happening. In other words, what you think is happening. What you think is happening is you think you're doing this stuff. But putting the Buddhist seal on it is not another one of these things. It's just to look at this stuff, to go into it, and to be upright in it, and to be flexible, to be completely undisoriented by what's happening. And in fact, no matter what you say, no matter what you think, no matter what posture you're in, you're never disoriented by that, because that's exactly all you are. And also you're not that either. That's why we don't say stop being that way either, because that's another thing, which isn't that we don't try to stop you from being. But put the Buddha mudra, the Buddhist seal on everything. Put the Buddhist seal on every gain and loss. I'm sorry, we've gone over time.

[88:42]

The Buddha mudra

[88:47]

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