Welcome to the people who are here first time. I imagine that for each of you there's a different constellation of causes and conditions that brought you here. And I wanted to tell you a little bit about what's been going on here for the last few years. And in particular, the last two and a half years, we have been in this situation here, we have been focusing on a vast scripture.

[01:00]

This scripture, this is a scripture and we've been reading and reciting and studying and discussing and meditating on the teachings that are presented in this scripture. And the name of this scripture is Flower Adornment Scripture or Buddha Flower Adornment Scripture. or great, extensive Buddha flower adornment scripture. And there's a Sanskrit original, which is Maha Vaipulya Buddha Avatamsaka Sutra. So Sutra is a Sanskrit word. In Pali it's sutta, and it's translated usually into English as scripture.

[02:09]

Scripture. So we have been devoting our life energy to this scripture for two and a half years. And we may continue, if all goes well, for another time. Seven and a half years. I offered ten years to study this. And today I'd like to take a little pause and reflect on this situation. What situation? Studying scripture. And one thing I'd like to reflect upon is that in the history, in the recent history of whatever I am, looking back to when I first started to be interested in Zen, back in the 60s, I got interested in Zen, and I really didn't hear anything about scriptures.

[03:26]

What I heard about, And what I read was stories about Zen practitioners. I also saw pictures of Zen practitioners. Oscar, there's a little kind of small black box that has hearing aids in it. Would you go get it? It's sort of around where I'm sitting. And also, maybe you could do that, please. And could you go into that changing room up there and bring me the picture of the person sitting? Thank you. So again, I saw pictures of humans. I saw pictures of human Zen students or Zen teachers.

[04:32]

I heard stories about Zen teachers, sometimes called Zen masters, and Zen students, and I was attracted to these stories. I thought, these are good stories. And then I found out that the people who are in these stories, that they did a practice, please come. And so I... started to do the practice which I heard they practiced. But still, I hadn't heard anything about scriptures. So my introduction to Buddhism was really mostly through Zen. I heard about the Buddha for a long time, but I wasn't attracted to Buddha. I mean, the pictures of Buddha, like there's a beautiful Buddha statue here. When I saw pictures of Buddhas and I saw statues of Buddhas in people's backyard, I didn't think, oh, that's for me.

[05:38]

But when I saw pictures like this, when I saw pictures like this, I believe in Look Magazine. Look! I looked and I thought, that's beautiful. That's a beautiful thing that person's doing. I didn't really think they're meditating. I just thought, how lovely. And I still think so. And this is a Zen student. His name's Hisamatsu Shinichi. And the picture of him inspired me to do that practice that he was demonstrating. Could you see the picture, Rick? Did you see a picture that inspired you a long time ago? But anyway, you practiced anyway.

[06:43]

And then I started to practice, and I practiced with the San Francisco Zen Center, and then I started to find out about scriptures. And the first one I found out about is called The Heart of Great Perfect Wisdom, Scripture. And I found out about it because after sitting with the people in the Zen Center, then after that, we would recite this great, perfect wisdom scripture. So I started to be exposed to scripture. So I would get up in the morning, and I lived in an apartment right across the street from the temple, Sokoji Temple on Bush Street. I would get up in the morning, and go across the street and sit.

[07:59]

And after sitting, they would have the chanting of the scripture. And I enjoyed that. But sometimes I skipped going to the scripture recitation and went home and read books about Zen people. I kind of was more attracted to the stories in the scripture. However, the scripture that we had, the piece of paper we had, was really quite interesting because it has these lovely Chinese characters, then a way to pronounce them, and then an English translation. So I was learning Chinese, which I appreciated. But again, I skipped that sutra recitation for quite often. But I kept sitting. Over the years, I started to actually start reading the scriptures and studying them. And then so I got into them, and I'm into them still.

[09:08]

And I'm amazed by what happens when I dive into the ocean of these great scriptures. I'm amazed at the life of studying the Buddhist teaching. But I just want to make clear again, I didn't start out with these scriptures, but now I'm like putting a lot of energy into the scriptures, in particular this huge scripture. And this scripture, this Flower Adornment scripture, it's particularly devoted to teaching, to offering teachings to what are called bodhisattvas, people who are on the path, not just the path of meditation, but the path of becoming Buddha.

[10:25]

in order to help all beings it's a teaching this big scriptures teaching for such beings and it talks quite a bit about when this wish or this aspiration to become Buddha arises in a living being so ordinary people like us it sometimes happens that This wish arises in our mind. Just like this morning, the wish arose in your mind, I guess, to come here. Did you notice it? And now you're coming here and I'm telling you this scripture is wholeheartedly praising the event of this wish for Buddhahood in order to help the world of suffering be free.

[11:34]

It really praises and encourages and supports and appreciates and celebrates this mind of awakening. So we've been talking about this the mind of awakening, but also talking about the arising of this wish in the ordinary human mind. So ordinary people, not all ordinary people have had this thought arise in their mind. They haven't heard about it. But today you're hearing about it. Today I'd like to talk a little bit about this thought. What thought? The thought of awakening, of Buddha's awakening. That thought arising and how it relates to teachers and scriptures.

[12:45]

So here's this thought which is brought up in a scripture. but it can also be brought up in other venues where this thought arises and it arises in the midst of certain causes and conditions. And the sutra talks about some of the causes and conditions in which this thought arises. So I have talked about the arising of this thought many times, and for me, one of the simplest ways to describe it is that this thought arises in a spiritual communion. So when there's a certain kind of communion or communication between living beings like us and awakening,

[13:49]

or you could say, and Buddhas, when there's a communication between us ordinary human beings and the Buddha, one that's really intimate and wholehearted, this thought can arise. That's a simple way to put it. a more detailed way of talking about it is described in the scripture so it's described in many places in the scripture over the thousands of pages it's described but in chapter 15 it starts out by talking about when this thought when this aspiration when this wish to become Buddha arises what is it? the question is what is it?

[14:52]

and what it does then is it tells various situations in which this thought arises and the situations the first time this talks about six situations and they're basically situations of seeing the Buddha hearing the Buddha listening to the Buddha and seeing suffering beings and listening to them. So what's described is various situations where we're meeting very inspiring beings and we're meeting suffering beings. And in meeting suffering beings, this thought can arise. But the story I told you was not actually seeing suffering beings, but seeing inspiring beings. So the vision of inspiring beings attracted me to wish to become a Zen student.

[16:02]

I didn't yet have the idea of Buddha, but I did want to be a Zen student because I saw inspiring examples of Zen students. But some people, when they see suffering beings, they aspire. to become awake in order to help them. So these are different situations can give rise to this thought. In other words, different situations can describe the birth of a bodhisattva. So here's a big chunk of information, is that this thing happened in China where people whose minds were inspired and who aspired to Buddhahood, they heard about a special transmission outside the scriptures.

[17:19]

outside the teachings. They heard about this. And that also encouraged them to practice Zen. Because this statement arose in so-called the Zen school. In China, And I imagine that part of the reason that this discussion of a special transmission of the Buddha's enlightenment, a special communion of Buddha's enlightenment, happened outside the scriptures. And that led to some people disregarding the scriptures, even disparaging the scriptures.

[18:27]

or disrespecting them because they heard about this wonderful transmission which didn't need the scriptures. That arose in China. And then we have this wonderful event of a Japanese student of Zen. He went to China and he heard about this teaching and And then he went home and he wrote some essays criticizing this teaching. A transmission of what? Of the mind of awakening outside the teaching. Outside the scriptures. He heard about it. He went back to Japan and he wrote quite a few essays.

[19:30]

But two of them particularly address this issue of we don't need the scriptures, we don't need the teaching, all we need is a special transmission. He criticized it. And he wrote two essays which really focused on it and they both sound the same in Japanese. They both sound like this. But they're not the same characters. One is, bukkyo is Buddha, butsu, together with kyo, which means teaching. So one is Buddhist teaching, bukkyo, Buddhist teaching. The other is Buddha, butsu, together with another kyo, but the second kyo means sutras.

[20:31]

So one is Buddhist teaching, the other is Buddhist sutras. So in these chapters, he basically says, to make a long story short, the special transmission is the teaching. It's not outside the teaching. The special transmission is Teaching. Teaching is the special transmission. It's not that there's a special transmission outside the teaching. Teaching is the scriptures. The special transmission is the scriptures. The special transmission is the scriptures. That's his criticism of that statement. is not outside or inside the scriptures.

[21:33]

It is the scriptures. And the scriptures are not inside or outside of the scriptures. They are just an intimate communion. So in the essay he says something like, of course it's written in Japanese, but anyway, In English, he says something like, bringing forth the thought, what thought? The thought of unsurpassed, complete, perfect awakening. Bringing forth that thought, that aspiration, that determination, that resolve. What resolve to this awakening? Bringing it forth depends on scriptures, on sutras, and wise friends.

[22:38]

So, in my case, this wish to practice the Buddha way arose depending on this picture of a wise friend, not even a person, a picture of a person. wise person I saw the picture and the aspiration arose but it also arises relying on the scriptures and then the practice of this aspiration also depends on the wise friends, the teachers, and the scriptures. And then the realization of awakening depends on the scriptures and the teachers, the wise friends.

[23:44]

And the last time it says, instead of just saying depends on, it says totally intimate with the scriptures, and the wise friends. When we first meet the good friend or meet the scripture, the thought arises for a first time There's a first time when this thought arises, when we meet scripture and or teacher. However, when it first arises, it's probably a little dualistic because we're just ordinary, deluded people. And so when I see this picture of this lovely meditator, I think he's separate from me and I want to be like him.

[24:57]

I aspire to be a wise person like him, but there's a little dualism there when I start. I aspire, but I'm not yet intimate with the teacher or the scripture. But the suggestion is that's how it arises. It arises when you hear the sutra, hear the teaching, or meet the person. But dualistically at the beginning. Then you practice and you continue to practice with scriptures and teachers. But still some duality between sentient being and Buddha. In the end, however, realizing the fruit of Buddhahood, which we aspired to, at the end of the process, or I shouldn't say not the end, actually not the end, but at the fruition, at the fruit, at the fruit, not the end.

[26:12]

The fruit's not the end. The fruit is just the fruit. And at the fruit of Buddhahood, then... we intimately, totally intimately, are relating to the teacher and the scripture. And then after the fruit comes the seeds, which are giving birth to more wise people and more scriptures, which then, again, start the process around again. So the fruit isn't the end, it's just... the reproductive conclusion of now we can reproduce this. So this is something that happened in Japan, and I don't know to what extent it happened in China, which was the refutation of the Zen phrase, a special transmission outside the city.

[27:22]

outside the teaching. It's refuting that. It's saying that that's a fallacy. It's saying it's a fallacy that there's a transmission of Buddhahood, of the Buddhadharma, outside the teaching of Buddhadharma. And then things go on, and the statement is made, wise friends, good friends, are well versed in scriptures. Back in India, and also in China, they told the Buddhist students, one of the ways you look for a teacher is to see if they're well versed in the teaching. That was a very strong message as part of what a teacher should be is someone who is well-versed in the teaching.

[28:30]

And the same in China, until the Zen thing happened. And the Zen thing said, wait a minute, the teacher doesn't have to be well-versed because it's a special transmission. Now, in Japan, things are going back sort of to the beginning again. The teacher... The Buddha is well-versed in Buddhist teaching. The Buddha is well-versed in Buddhist scriptures. But the successors of Buddha are well-versed in the scriptures. And then it says, well-versed means that they see the sutras as the land. If you read the scriptures, good for you, I would say. Be careful, but good for you.

[29:31]

And the statement here is, when you become well-versed in what? In the sutras. When you become well-versed, you will see them, you will see the sutras as the land. Or you could turn it around, I would say. When you're well-versed in the sutras, you will see that they are the land, and you will see that the land is the sutras. When you're well-versed in the sutras, when you look at the land, you say, this is a sutra. Later, we might have a work period here. Sorry, you're going to miss it. We're going to have a work period where you can go out and look at the land and see the sutra. But maybe you can't do it yet because maybe you're not well-versed enough in the sutras. It's being suggested.

[30:33]

When you're well-versed in the sutras, especially when you're well-versed in this sutra, this sutra says that when you look at the land deeply, you will find a huge sutra. This sutra says, when you take one atom and smash it open, you will discover an enormous scripture. A scripture that's as big as the whole universe. Where? In an atom. You can find, and in every particle of dust on the land, there are sutras This is what it means according to this sutra and according to Dogen. This is what it means to be well-versed in the sutras. That you see the land as the sutras. You see the sutras as the land. Then he goes on nicely.

[31:36]

He says, they, the wise people, they see the sutras as bodies and minds their bodies and their minds but they see the sutras as bodies if I was well versed in the sutra I would see these bodies as sutras these bodies as great sutras and the minds as great as the sutra this is what it means to be well versed and then he goes on and on and on, and I skipped some of them, but just to say, they see the sutras as their father and mother. I probably shouldn't say this, but after being into these sutras for a while, I'm starting to see them as my father and mother, which is kind of like me bragging, I'm sorry.

[32:42]

I feel like this sutra is giving birth to me and nourishing me like my father and mother. Also, they see the sutras as their descendants, as their children and grandchildren. When I'm well-versed in this sutra, I will start to see this sutra as my grandchild. I love my grandchildren, and when I'm well-versed in the sutra, I will love the sutra as I love my grandchildren, according to some people. And in this way, we investigate the sutra. How do you investigate the sutra? Look at everything as a sutra. And then we have all these Zen stories about these people interacting in these very interesting ways.

[34:04]

And now the suggestion is those are born of the sutras and those are stories of what it's like when the thought of enlightenment arises. All the Zen stories are about that. So the suggestion is that the sutras are the whole world in ten directions. The sutras are the whole universe. Astrophysicists, of course, would have no problem with that because they are devoted to studying this astronomical, infinite universe. They are devoted to studying that, to learning from that. In ancient times, it has been said that the whole universe in ten directions, in all directions, the universe is scripture.

[35:13]

There is no place that is not a Buddhist scripture. No place that is not the Buddhist teaching. So a little summary about the history is, in the early days of the Buddha Dharma, these scriptures were offered. The Buddha gave teachings and the teachings were written down and became scriptures. But they were scriptures before they were written down, I'm suggesting. And in India, some people really respected the Buddhist teaching, really were devoted to the Buddhist teaching.

[36:17]

and the Buddhist scriptures and then in China when the scriptures and the teachings got transmitted the Chinese people some of them were very devoted to these scriptures and they made a big effort to translate thousands of scriptures into Chinese and the emperor and the government supported this tremendous effort to translate all this stuff from Sanskrit into Chinese. And that was an act of devotion to the Buddhist teaching. The Chinese people were devoted to the Buddha and the Buddhist teacher. And then after they translated them, they were devoted to the Chinese translations. And then the Zen school came along and some of the Zen people thought, you know, I think these people are getting hung up on these sutras, so let's liberate them from the sutras.

[37:22]

Wouldn't that be great? And so they tried and they had some success. And then some people came from Japan and saw what was going on and went back to Japan and said, no, let's go back to the ordinary Buddhist life of being devoted to the Buddhist teaching. And I think that's where we are now. Where are we now? We're here together. And what we're doing here is a scripture. This meeting is a scripture. This meeting is a teaching. It's not just me teaching or you teaching. It's all of us together being here. Our life together is a Buddhist sutra. And it might be helpful to read some essays about how that's so. So I brought them up today. But I'm just scratching the surface.

[38:25]

But even though I just passed the surface, I've been talking so long that I probably should stop and see if you have anything you'd like to add to this scripture. Yes and yes. So I can't remember exactly how to put this, but you said, so read the scriptures or the sutras, and then you said, be careful, and then you went on. And I just wondered what you meant by... Yeah, be careful not to swallow them whole. You'll choke. Chew them. Be careful not to grasp them, because they're ungraspable. Because the sutra is ungraspable, they can be the whole universe. And because the whole universe is ungraspable, it can be a sutra. So be careful. And I remember one time a wonderful Buddhist scholar named Kajiyama came to Berkeley to teach, and he said, I warn you Westerners not to swallow the Japanese Zen tradition whole.

[39:40]

In other words, Be critical. Chew it. As you know, even brown rice, which is really pretty good for you, if you swallow it whole, it's not so good. You get that indigestion if you swallow it whole. But if you chew it, it turns into dharma. If you chew it thoroughly. And Suzuki Rishi loved to see his students chew brown rice at Tassajara. And I love to see people chewing the citrus. I don't want you to swallow it whole. I don't want you to think I'm telling you to believe them. I'm just saying, here's a little banquet for you. And you can chew it if you want. I've been chewing it and I'm going to continue. I'm enjoying chewing these citrus and telling you how delicious they are. But sometimes when you're doing something, it tastes bad.

[40:45]

Maybe the brown rice has too much salt on it or has become moldy. So maybe you should spit it out. Yes, yes, and yes. Yes? I could totally relate the aspiration parts that... for the aspiration of seeing the picture and seeing beauty, I call it beauty, but basically it's aspiration. This picture, I thought this picture was beautiful. Yeah. And I did. And also there was a subtitle on it, which was In Deepest Thought. And I thought, oh yeah, right. When deepest thought hits your body, your body becomes beautiful. It becomes what? Beautiful. A body in deep thought is a beautiful body.

[41:50]

Even if it's on the verge of death and all wizened and covered with scars and sores, if it's in deepest thought, it's a beautiful body. And of course, all your bodies are in deepest thought. So you're beautiful and so you're sutras. Then as you're speaking, I'd like to believe you, but I'm not. You don't have to. I welcome you to postpone believing and start questioning. And I continue the question because that's what... Thank you for continuing the question and coming back to question some more and never believing anything. But I hope you have faith in questioning. That's where my faith actually is. Yeah. Okay, thank you. Questioning and the inquiry. So I'm inquiring the suffering.

[42:53]

The aspiration, it's all beautiful, but I can see myself. My aspiration kind of gets lost. It totally dissipates. Yeah, that can happen. That can happen. So, and I've been talking to some people who have lost their aspirations, so I say, if you've lost your aspiration, let's start looking for it and find it again. So it's a normal thing that you have an aspiration, you start to practice and you forget why you started. So then you go and say, you know, I forgot what I'm doing here. Well, let's go find it out again. It's there. So we have to keep going back Why am I here? Why am I alive? Why am I in a Zen center? Oh yeah, right. So it's normal that we keep losing it. Or even if you kind of remember it, you still have to, you know, not just remember it, but go back and like drink it, chew it.

[43:56]

Because that's where your energy comes from, is your aspiration. And then you can put it to work. But still, it... the energy will run out unless you go back and eat some more aspiration. And again, don't swallow your aspiration whole. Chew it. And part of chewing it is to question your aspiration. The questioning, if it's done properly, will make the aspiration, and the energy, it won't make the aspiration grow in this case because the aspiration is infinite. But it will make the energy that comes from the aspiration grow. I like to give my vow because I love the statement that I vow with all beings. I like to give my vow with all beings that in the process they forgot to chew their forgetfulness.

[45:01]

Because there's a lot of forgetfulness. I didn't see your vow. I thought you were going to tell me a vow. I didn't see it. A vow is chewing the forgetfulness. Okay, so you vow to chew. You're going to chew the forgetfulness, but are you going to also chew the vow? I heard you say, I heard a vow to chew is forgetfulness. Are you going to also make a vow to chew the vow? That comes... I think I can see that. Once you chew all the forgetfulness, then you chew the vow. Okay, great. All must be chewed. Great. And then if you forget, chew the forgetfulness. And then you remember. Oh yeah. Thank you. Yes? Is scripture the Buddhist teaching in writing? Is that what scripture is? I'm trying to get the difference between... teaching and scripture? The Buddhist scripture can be seen as the land.

[46:07]

And as a head and everything else, right? It can be seen as a book. It can be seen as a word. It can be seen as eyeballs. And what's the difference between teaching and scripture? The teaching is a scripture and the scripture is a teaching, but the teaching of a scripture is not a scripture. The teaching that comes from the scripture is not just the pages and the words on the page. The scripture, the page teaches something. The teaching is an extension or a pervading of the book, of the pages. So is part of what scripture means or not? Yeah, well, the land is part of it. The land covered with all the temples and all the libraries, all of that, the entire land, is a scripture.

[47:14]

And some of the scripture looks like a book. Sometimes the scripture looks like a book. But the book is also a teaching. The land is a teaching. This is, it's a subtle matter. But anyway, the Zen phrase is, the first part actually says, a special transmission outside the teaching. And then it says, not depending on words. So this is a teaching that is in words that doesn't depend on words. So the scripture doesn't depend, this book here doesn't depend on this book. This book is the entire universe. And the entire universe is this book.

[48:16]

The universe can take the form of a page, a paper with writing on it. That's part of the universe. But not all the different parts of the universe say that the whole universe is the teaching. But this particular part of the universe is telling us that the whole universe is the teaching here. So this is not something to be grasped. You can't get a hold of this. Wise people do not try to — first of all, they depend on the scriptures, but at the beginning they And when they first start, they might be somewhat grasping the scriptures. When they become mature in their study of the scriptures, they don't grasp them anymore because they're so intimate. There's nothing to grasp.

[49:19]

However, we do have this book and we have the rest of the universe. And the entire surface of the universe is a scripture. but the entire surface of this book is also a scripture. The pages, the surface of the page of the book is a scripture. So I have a scripture and then the surface of the scripture is another scripture. Okay, so I'm going now to Linda and Charlie and Linda, Charlie and Linda. Yes, Linda? I was having... kind of a however when you were talking, but as I'm listening, I'm seeing more the way you're seeing it. I was feeling myself agreeing with the Zen people, feeling that when you talk about scripture, scripture is words often, and words tend to confine and be limited rather than...

[50:25]

When you say awakening is the scripture, yes, when the scripture is awakening, the scripture can't quite reach it if it's words. But the chewing, maybe it's the chewing that grinds it up and makes it When you first started talking, you said, I had a whatever. A however. A however. And I thought, oh yeah, that however, that however is a scripture. If you look at that however, you'll discover there's a huge scripture in that however. And you started to unfold that however when you're taught. And that's the scripture that came out of the however, is your thinking. about the however.

[51:25]

Chewing. You're chewing. But in every word, in every question, if you actually look at it, you will discover the whole universe there. So, and then in this Zen... You try to put it into words, and it becomes in person. If you do put it in the world, if you have a word that's imprisoned, or if you have a prison, that prison is a teaching. That prison is not really a prison, it's a teaching. The whole universe is a teaching. It's not to say there's no prisons, it's just saying the prisons are part of what is a sutra. You can't get away from the sutra by being imprisoned. Still some people might say, let's let the people out of prison. Nope. Okay. Why not? If you can let them out of prison, fine.

[52:27]

Some people say, no, keep them in prison. So if some people want to set them out, okay, there's a sutra. Some people want to keep them in prison, there's a sutra. There's nothing that's not a sutra. There's nothing that's not calling for compassion. There's nothing that's not calling for investigation. Investigating the sutras, there's nothing you don't investigate, including however, or I like the Zen people. Investigate it. So I see, let's see, there was Charlie. Charlie was before Linda. He was way back. You couldn't see him, but he was way back there. Charlie? there's a criticism of maybe it's a criticism of just of trying to go with just the teaching outside the scriptures There also is a criticism to say that the transmission is outside the scriptures It's not outside the transmission is unlimited

[53:50]

It's not outside or inside. There's a criticism of that. And my impression was, oh, okay, so Dogen's trying to get me to read the scriptures. Yeah. No. I don't put that on him. And also, I am not trying to get you to read the scriptures. But I do actually want you to understand that the whole universe is a scripture. I do want that for you. But I'm not trying to get you to read Delva Tom's architecture. And I'm not trying to get you to read anything. But I do wish that you would wake up to that everything is teaching you. And say thank you. You feel like this topic, this wonderful conversation, is sort of a nice little refresher. I'm like, hey, why are we reading this? Yes. That's what I'm doing here. It's not working.

[54:58]

But wait a second. You say it's not working. It sounds like what you mean by working is to make you want to read the book. That's not what's going on here. It's like some of us are reading the book whether we like it or not and I'm talking about how to understand what we're doing. not to get you to do what somebody else is doing, but to help you understand what you're doing and what the other people who are reading the sutra are doing. What you're doing, without looking at this scripture, it's being suggested to you that what you're doing is studying a scripture. Everything you do all day long, you cannot, there's nothing in your life, there's no place or time that's not a scripture. And I wish for you to study everything deeply and realize then, oh yeah, but I'm not trying to get you to open this book.

[56:00]

And I have told you over and over that when Suzuki Rishi was going to talk about the Lotus Sutra, I started to read it, but I stopped because I just felt... not no life in the study of it and he wasn't I didn't feel like he was trying to get me to read it and when I stopped I didn't feel like oh I I didn't I went again my teacher and then I and then I read it again and he didn't tell me to but I read it again and I stopped and I read it again and I stopped but finally I found the scripture in the scripture Finally the scripture opened up and said, look what's here. But I had to chew on it for quite a while. But you don't have to chew it at all. You can discover the scripture without ever looking at the Lotus Sutra.

[57:04]

You say finally, but also then something else might happen after that. Like you might also realize the emptiness of the scripture. Well, I say... Yeah. Actually, when you first discover the scripture, you might think, again, like I said before, the people who are well-versed in the scriptures, the wise people, when they first study the scripture, there's some duality in it. But as they become more mature, they realize that the sutra is ungraspable. But they start, they maybe think it's this, like it's a... It's a page. And then gradually they realize there's no beginning or end to it. It doesn't say the wise people read the scriptures. It doesn't say that. It doesn't say they don't. It says the wise people are well versed in the scriptures. What does it mean to be well versed in the scriptures?

[58:07]

It's to see them as the land. It's to see them as your mother. and your father. But you don't have to open this book up to discover that in this book is your mother and father. Because your mother and father are in this book and they're in this stick. But you have to study the book and the stick to find your mother and father. That's what... And we're also not telling... Not saying you should be a wise person. Just telling you what wise people do. They're well-versed in the sutra, which means... They see the whole world in everything. That's what being well-versed in the sutra means. Yes. Thank you. Well, the use of the word scripture for sutra has been causing problems as a translation because it literally means...

[59:09]

A written work. No, sutra does not mean necessarily. Yeah, sutra doesn't mean that. But sutra means that. So I'll just, let me finish myself. The word sutra and the word scripture are etymologically related. Sutra, as you know, means thread. Thread, yeah. But also surgery means thread. Well, I don't want it really. Well, you're the one who's bringing up the words. And the Chinese word and the Sanskrit word for sutra mean a thread. Well, I'm going to belabor this because I want to conclude with something really nice. But a thread in English is a very wonderful metaphor of something that's woven together. Yeah. And in... Most usage that I've ever heard, scripture definitely means something written in words, printed.

[60:10]

Right, it means that, but etymologically, sutra means thread. As in suture. And suture is used to put things together. And the thread is to put the pages of the sutra together. It's not the pages. Etymologically, it's what runs through the pages. That's the sutra. Not the pages, but what runs through them. And Chinese is the same. It's what went through them. I would like to retain the word sutra in English, like we've now picked up dharma as an English word. Sutra, I'm just saying sutra will help us more than the English word scripture. But I honestly don't want to argue with you about that. No, no, no. But you can go ahead and wish, but the word scripture is going to happen in this situation. But the word sutra is also going to happen. So we have Sanskrit sutra and English scripture.

[61:12]

And trying to eliminate either one's not probably going to happen. But if you have both, if you have both, you're going to have problems. So because you'll have problems, if you have both, someone might want to get rid of one of them. I feel misunderstood. However, let me just give you the gift that I wanted to give you. Okay. And everybody. There's a line in Shakespeare, very nice, more than nice. And, you know, a dude gets thrown out of his kingdom by his bad, bad brother, and the dude get his loyal people that are still with him. They're out in the forest. They have to live in the forest. And he's really good. He's got a lot of wisdom, and he gets happy there. And he gives this line, and this our world, I think it's world might be, this our world exempt from public haunt, finds tongues in trees, books in the running brooks, sermons in stones, and good in everything.

[62:13]

Yeah. That's what I just read from here. Not as beautiful, maybe. But those who are well-versed in sutras, they see that. They see the sutra in the woods. They see the sutra as... the hundred grasses, and they see the sutra as 10,000 trees. That's what they see. But you have to go out there in the woods or read the scripture. Either one. It's the same. And the word sutra and scripture, having both of them, has a problem. Let's see, who's next? Is that it? Yes, George. I read that Suzuki Roshi had this line where he said, careful of stair, step, zen.

[63:17]

Yes. You can go straight to enlightenment or awakening. This sounds like a... confirmation of that it's like you can meet life right where it is yes and be careful of going up and down stairs you know each step you know just like really carefully step otherwise you might fall down or you might get too high and fall down yeah usually what goes up comes down so Let's be careful of the steps, but each step is the whole universe. Each step is a sutra. Each step, yeah, is teaching us the Buddha way.

[64:19]

According to this scripture. Yes. I would like to participate in reading the sutra. How can I do that? There actually are some groups that are doing that. You can join the groups. You're welcome to join. I would like to do that. You're joining? Are you in this group? I am. I was going to make it in a house at the end of lunch. There are a number of groups that are reading the scripture at different times of day because some of them are in Europe. Some of them are on the East Coast and some of them are on the West Coast. So depending on the time zone, you might find one that works for you. But there's several that are reading this sutra and also some are reading the Lotus Sutra. Yes. There are some flyers in the room there from Karen Mueller who has a group the first Wednesday of

[65:27]

afternoon of each month. And she asked that we know that they're there and be aware of that reading together. Yeah. It's called reading the sutra together. Yeah. So that's happening. Yes, Leslie. There's someone in this quote, I don't know exactly, talking about not understanding words and phrases. And then one, two, three, four, five. Okay. Would you say it again louder? When he talks about not understanding words and phrases and not phrasing it correctly. He doesn't say not understanding, he said not dependent on words and phrases. Not dependent. So again, that statement had certain drawbacks.

[66:28]

I think the statement was offered to free people from words, to let the people out of prison of words. That's, I think, what the intention was. But it led to them trying to eliminate, not use words. So then Dogen heard that teaching of don't depend on words and phrases, and he went back to Japan and he said, the only way to understand the special transmission is with words and phrases. You have to use words and phrases to realize what's beyond words and phrases. Freedom from words and phrases. The only way to realize freedom from words and phrases is with words and phrases. And then what are the words and phrases? Well, they're the whole universe. What? I don't know if it's six, seven... I don't know what you're referring to, one, two, three, four, five.

[67:33]

Anyway, there's a lot of numbers in this book. And each number is an opportunity to realize the way right there. So be careful, though, because if you do it here, then you see if there's another one, you might say, no, no, no, I'm not going to go there. So you get stuck in this one where you realized the way. I don't want another one. So the talk today is about some orientation about what it's like to study, to become well-versed, to study scriptures. That's what I'm trying to explore with you. And you don't need to open this book ever. But if you want to, you can do so, and you can do it with other people. All right. Yes, Deborah? So you can become well-versed in the scriptures through seeing a beautiful picture of stillness or silence or going into the wood.

[68:46]

But also, it's not just seeing, it's understanding. If you want to be well-versed in the sutra, can you see the sutra? Can you see the trees in the forest? Can you see them as a sacred teaching? That's how to become well-versed in the sutras. And this particular sutra is saying, yes, please study every particle of your life and everything you meet. When you see everything you meet as a scripture, then you're becoming well-versed. To see the sutra as confined to this book you see the sutra but you're not yet well versed and so for some people it's easier to become well versed by going out in the forest and seeing if you can see what's going on there for other people it's like read the scripture and then go out and test it the sutra says you can find the teaching in every particle of the land so then when you hear that

[69:59]

Go out in the land and see if you can do it. It might be hard, but any particle is a good opportunity. Yes and yes. Even calling on this person is a good opportunity. Can you talk louder? I feel pretty loud in here, but it may be just that I'm back here. But it seems like we're referencing traditionally inspirational things, but I'm hearing you say that the whole universe is a sutra. So like rage bait and anger and they are all They're part of the universe and they are part of the scripture of the universe.

[71:04]

And so they're calling for compassion. They're calling for respect. They're calling for investigation. They're calling for questioning. They're calling for devotion. They're calling for love. They're calling for patience. They're calling for gentleness. Everything. as you mentioned, and endlessly is asking for that. In that sense, everything's teaching us to practice. Would I add one last thing? Yes. Last thing for me. I wouldn't have read this particular scripture. under other circumstances but I like it now because because you love it so much and you're so powerfully connected to it that I like to do it with you and with this community that's reason and it's a great activity that's why I'm doing it and I love I really appreciate that you consider loving what you see me loving

[72:25]

I've seen some people love some people. And I thought, I think, wow, I'd like to learn that. I mean, because the people may be like really mean, you know, like the mother of gangsters. She loves her little boy who's really just so terrible. How can you love that? But she can. She can love this person who's being cruel to other people. Yeah. I want to learn that. I think somebody said, it's a secret. If the students love the teacher, they'll start to love what the teacher loves. So that's fine. But I'm not trying to get you to love it, but I'm happy to hear that you're joining this love fest. Dishimaru used to have spoken. I saw that his students were all smoking. Yeah, and Chogyam Trungpa, he drank.

[73:30]

I don't know if he smoked, but he drank quite a bit, and his students tried it. And then after he passed away, some of his students told me, you know, the only person it seemed to work for was him. The drinking didn't work for the rest of us. So I think, I don't think that, I don't know. if any of you know but I don't think they're drinking anymore very much I mean I know some of them and they don't drink but they tried it and they found out it didn't work but maybe it worked for the teacher but there is this thing about example and so and again just to say that one time Some students asked Suzuki Rishi, what about him drinking? And Suzuki Rishi said, well, usually we don't do that.

[74:33]

But when it comes to him, I don't know what to say. I don't know what to say. But it was a difficult act to follow. And they tried, but I don't think they, it didn't really work for them. that that we heard him talk once and he was drunk in a church but his talk was really lucid so I don't think it works for him but he could be clear yeah and one time the first time he met Suzuki Rishi he met him at Tassajara he came down to Tassajara and I just happened to be at the pool with Suzuki Roshi at that time. I don't know what we were. We weren't swimming, but we were at the pool. And Trungpa, with his attendants, came down and met Suzuki Roshi. And then later he gave a talk in the zendo.

[75:37]

But at that time, he wore this big... He had a brace on his foot and a big boot because of an accident he had. He was kind of crippled. And he came into the zendo. with his boots on, clump, clump, clump. And I really did not like that. And then he gave the talk and I thought, that's pretty good talk. I forgave him for tromping down the zendo floor. The whole universe is a scripture. The whole universe is a sutra. So that's what the Surya says. But I don't ask you to believe that. I'm not saying that over because I want you to believe it. I'm telling it over because I love it. It really helps me because then I respect, if I follow that teaching, I respect every living being and every experience I have.

[76:48]

And if I forget that teaching, There are some experiences which I might not be respectful, which I might try to get rid of or eliminate. But the sutra says let's take care of the whole universe.

[77:06]

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