Once again, the love story of Di Tsang and Fa Yan was 30 years of close study together. And maybe at the end, when Fa Yan was about to leave, Di Tsang said, where are you going? And Fa Yan said, I'm going around on pilgrimage. And Di Tsang said, is that a thing? Is pilgrimage a thing? And Tha Yen said, I don't know.

[01:02]

And Ditsang said, not knowing, most intimate. And then later, the teacher Hongzhi celebrating this love between these two, this love where the teacher's not attached to the student, totally devoted to the student, studying with the student, studying to understand the student, and the student the same. Hongzhi said, now having studied to the full, it's like before. When Fa-Yin first came, remember? in the snow and Xu Shan was kind of rude to the teacher and Fa Yan said you shouldn't be crudely insulting him maybe I'll stay with him for a while and he did

[02:26]

But after 30 years, it's like before. Before he started studying, and now that he's leaving, it's like before. Having shed entirely the finest thread, he's reached not knowing. Let it be short, let it be long. Stop cutting and pruning. Going along with the high, along with the low, it levels itself. The abundance or scarcity of the house is used according to occasion.

[03:33]

In this story, it's pretty scarce. It's not an abundant story this time. But it seemed quite appropriate. Roaming serenely over the land, Fa Yan goes where his feet take him. The purpose of 30 years of pilgrimage. Parentheses, inconceivable. Close parentheses. Clearly, he had turned his back on a pair of eyebrows. Clearly, he turned his back on a pair of eyebrows.

[04:36]

And then there's a little comment on eyebrows. One face, big as you want. Eye, ear, nose, tongue, distinguish territories. Mouth asked the nose. Eating is up to me. Speaking is up to me. What's so good about you that you're above me? The Nao said, Among the five sacred mountains of China, the central one is most honored. Then the nose asked the eyes, why are you above me?

[05:49]

The eyes said, we are like the sun and the moon. Truly, we accomplish illumination and reflection. Dare we ask, eyebrows said, what virtue do you have above us? The eyebrows said, excuse me, the eyes asked the eyebrows. So the eyes said, we're like the sun and the moon. Then the eyes asked the eyebrows. What virtue do you have to be above us? How come you get to be up there above us? The eyebrows said, we really have no merit.

[06:57]

We're ashamed to be in the higher position. There they are up there in the high position. Yes.

[08:16]

Where that story and that poem are found? The story is case... It's various places. But I'm reading from the Book of Serenity, number 20. It's probably also... The Book of Serenity has 100 Zen conversations. But... There's other collections that have thousands. So it's probably in some of those other collections too. So the compiler of the Book of Serenity chose, in some sense, her favorite 100. And then in the commentary of those 100 are several more. So originally that story was probably in some other collections. The poems are only, this poem I read you, they're only in the Book of Serenity.

[09:22]

Because first he compiled the stories, then he wrote verses for each story. And it's in Chinese, so fortunately or unfortunately, we have trouble appreciating how beautiful it is in Chinese, these characters. You know, when you translate them in English, He translated a character that maybe has five meanings. So when the Chinese read it, they maybe choose the same word to translate, but all these associations are there, which are resonating. But anyway, the Hongzhi is considered to be one of the great Zen poets. And so he wrote the verses to these stories. He collected the stories and wrote the verses. Did you give us the back story, Shenshu? I did. The back story was that before Shenshu is the one who said, who came back to visit, and Di Sang said, where have you been?

[10:34]

Where are you coming from? He said, the South. So he had been to visit Di Sang before, and he was kind of, seemed to be kind of rude. Like, even talking behind, De Sang's back. He just said that arbitrarily. So that's the back story. But then he came back after being kind of rude and met the teacher again. And they had this second conversation, which has been appreciated by Hong Zhur. He liked the follow-up story. But in the commentary, we hear the back story. And Shinshu didn't say, sorry I was rude last time I was here. Maybe he wasn't. Maybe that's just his way of loving the teacher. Sure, go ahead, ask a question if you want to.

[11:35]

But the teacher did say, mountains, rivers, and the great earth. Are they the same? Are they identical? Or separate from you guys? Well, you elders. Yeah. So he's asking these four people. And Shishan spoke up after allowing him to question and said, separate. And Di Sang raised two fingers. And then he Kind of like, oops. Identical, identical. It's identical exclamation point. Identical. So this is how these guys had intimate conversations. So now it's our job to continue the practice.

[12:45]

of intimate conversation. I mean, we're being called to do that. I'm up for it. Are you? Okay. Anything else? Yes, Sonia? I answered this today, but what I've been pondering with no grasping, it seems like in the teaching, there's like trying to add on something, like joy or compassion, and I'm wondering how, what I've been thinking about is how you not add on, but actually lead to transformation, not grow it.

[13:49]

what you know, but actually transforming how we actually engage. I think you're saying intimate conversation, but how do we not add it to the self? Well, in this story that we just talked about, Fa Yan received teachings from his teacher for many years, and then he's going to go away. And he didn't go away to add something. He's going to go for a pilgrimage. He's going to go for a walk. And then it says, after having, what is the word, let go of the finest thread, he finally reached, not knowing. Yeah, those things you mentioned.

[14:55]

Those are actually pretty thick threads, but there could be even finer ones that you let go of, even the finest thread of the teaching. But you devotedly care for the thread that you're letting go of. Is that what it said? shedding the finest thread but you don't shed it by not taking care of it pick up every stitch right you take care of it and then taking care of it thoroughly you let go of it it's kind of like the proof of taking care of it is that you're not holding on to it and you may have noticed that you're holding on to some of the teachings That's not, you're just holding on to a thread.

[15:56]

Also, I don't know what the characters are right now. I'll look for them later. But anyway, the character for thread might be the character for sutra, for scripture. The Chinese character for scripture is the Chinese character for thread. Just like in Sanskrit, sutra. originally means the thread. It's the thread and it's the thread that runs through all the leaves of the text. The same in Chinese, the thread that goes through the leaves or the pages of the scripture. So we let go of even the finest thread. But we do that with our devotion. We let go of the finest thread of who we think our lover is. By loving them, we love our attachment away.

[17:07]

Like some people do get attached sometimes to somebody and then when they get attached to somebody, guess what happens? They suffer. They suffer because this person they care about, they're attached to that suffering. So then they think, maybe if I would just turn down the caring, then the suffering would go down. And it might. But it just turns it down. It's just in the dark. And I wouldn't say turn it up. I'd say leave it, study it. But it's hard to study the pain of our attachment to someone we love. But I've known some people say, I think maybe I just should care less about you. And I say, that's not going to work. You should care more. Care more and more. That will show you, the more you care, the more you'll notice if there's any kind of holding on to a thread.

[18:15]

So if you notice it now, it's painful, just turn it up. Do it more wholeheartedly. That's going to be pretty scary. Yes? How can we support you as you go into that surgery? How can you support me? Let's see. There's so many ways. One way would be around the middle of the day, on the 29th, you could think of something like bodhisattva love, which isn't going, it's going everywhere, right? Just remember bodhisattva love in the middle of the day.

[19:18]

I couldn't... Who could ask for anything more? So it's for all of us, right? Just remember what's most important at that time. But you can start earlier if you want to. Middle of the day is probably when the surgery will be. But that would be, I guess, that would be helpful. But there may be other things also that would be helpful. I wouldn't mind. And you could also have a picture of Kaz at the same time. Another call. Yeah. I could imagine you saying, hey, Kaz, is it okay if I have a picture of Reb in my mind while he's having his surgery?

[20:19]

I think Kaz might have something to say. I think Kaz might have a response to your question. He often has responses. And his responses are often love. Once again, thank you for another wonderful day together.

[20:45]

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