So, today is kind of an anniversary, a three-year anniversary of our joyful exploration of a great sutra called the Flower Adornment Scripture. We've been exploring it and discussing it for three years. Three years ago, I vowed that if this body lives 10 more years, I would devote this body to the study of this sutra with you for 10 years. And recently, in various assemblies, we have been discussing book 18.

[01:01]

of the Flower Adornment Scripture. And Book 18 in English has been translated as clarifying Dharma. Clarifying the Dharma. Dharma which is clarifying. Another translation is clarifying method. Clarifying the methods of bodhisattvas. So many of you have been at those meetings. And today I'd like to continue discussing Book 18, Clarifying Dharma. Book 18, of course, follows Book 17. And Book 17 is a great symphony of joyful expression of the infinite merits of the first time that the aspiration to Buddhahood arises in the mind of a living being.

[02:17]

In the Bodhisattva vehicle, this is a very important moment in the evolution of the Bodhisattva. when they actually have this aspiration arising in their ordinary human or ordinary dog or ordinary cat mind or bird mind or dolphin mind or gorilla mind. This can happen. that there's actually a wish and a commitment to realize the best understanding of life in order to help all beings. A little bit of that is discussed in chapter 17. And we discussed that chapter for a long time.

[03:25]

And now book 18 goes into the practices that protect this wonderful mind, this wonderful wish, this wonderful bodhisattva wish, the magnificent, infinitely beneficial thought to attain a true awakening in order to help all living beings. So in this chapter 18, basically, the context is a conversation. An intimate conversation between two bodhisattvas. Like right now, we have a conversation between many bodhisattvas. But in that book, in book 18, it's just two are mentioned.

[04:32]

I have just mentioned about 90 bodhisattvas who have the opportunity for an intimate conversation about life, about death, about our vows. So in chapter 18, these two bodhisattvas are featured. And again, we've discussed this in the past. You can check on the past recordings. But basically, the one bodhisattva, vigorous wisdom, asks the bodhisattva, dharma wisdom to teach about how the bodhisattvas who have this aspiration how they can practice to bring this aspiration to protect it and bring it to fruition and the last time we met we reached the point in chapter 18

[06:00]

where Dharma wisdom tells us that there's ten dharmas, ten teachings, ten methods, which cause the bodhisattva to quickly enter the bodhisattva stages. in cleary's translation thomas cleary's translation it speaks of ten things which caused the bodhisattvas to quickly enter by the way that's on page 428 of cleary's translation in the other translation of the dharma mitra It says there's ten dharmas by which bodhisattvas quickly enter.

[07:05]

The bodhisattva grounds. So, stages is one translation, but the original Sanskrit is bodhisattva bhumi. Bodhisattva grounds. Or bodhisattva stages. So, you can say stages or grounds. Grounds is... has virtues and stages as virtues. So we have two great translations in English now. One says grounds, the other says stages. But they both say there are 10 things, 10 dharmas by which the bodhisattvas can quickly enter the bodhisattva grounds, the bodhisattva stages. Today I'd like to bring up two of the ten. One of them is that the bodhisattvas thoroughly investigate and practice the six perfections, the six transcendent bodhisattva training methods, which are giving ethical advice

[08:30]

enjoyment and discipline and investigation, ethical training. Three, patience, bodhisattva patiences. Four, enthusiasm, diligence, joyful practice. Five, calm abiding. tranquil meditation. And six, transcendent wisdom. So doing these practices, bodhisattvas can quickly enter the bodhisattva grounds. Another one of these 10 methods that I'd like to bring up is number nine on the list of 10. And number nine is that the bodhisattvas develop a mind which doesn't dwell in the teachings of each stage.

[09:41]

So there's ten bodhisattva stages in this sutra. And there's a big chapter, a big book on these ten. It's hundreds of pages long. And it gives lots of teachings on each stage. So someday, I hope, chapter 26, we will reach and we'll go into these teachings for each of the grounds. But what's mentioned here is that the key to entering these grounds quickly is that you investigate them, you study them, and you do not abide in them You diligently, wholeheartedly hear the teachings about these stages. You ask for the teachings.

[10:44]

You listen to the teachings. You contemplate the teachings. You even teach the teachings. You give classes on the teachings. You write books on the teachings. Like there's a book with my name on it called entering Buddha's mind about these six perfections, which many of us, many of you, have been joyfully practicing, giving, studying the precepts, patience, diligence, concentration, and wisdom. But here, number nine is emphasizing that in this study of these teachings, the bodhisattva does not dwell in any of the teachings, does not get stuck in them, does not attach to them. So the Zen tradition is often kind of complemented as a school which has no dogma.

[11:56]

The school has infinite teachings, but no dogma. We have no teachings that we hold on to tightly. We have no teachings which are unquestionable. We have teachings which we question, which we investigate, we investigate, we investigate the teachings, we do not grasp them. If you hear the teachings about these stages, and you receive them, and you say thank you for them, and you remember them, and you, again, investigate them with good friends, like we're doing here, with questioning, then we do not adhere to them and we quickly enter the stages. So again,

[13:02]

carefully, thoroughly investigating the teachings about the stages, the bodhisattva stages of this great sutra, and then not dwelling in them, not abiding in them. So we have a temple called no abode, which is the bodhisattvas. Study the abodes of the bodhisattvas and don't abide in them. Do not attach to them. Do not accept them without investigation. And from early Buddhism, Buddhists said, okay, you want the teaching? Well, please listen. But don't believe the teaching just because I said it. Listen to it with respect and then question it. And find out for yourself that these teachings are true. But we won't realize the truth of them if we don't investigate them and question them And also, if we don't have some friends who question our investigation.

[14:05]

We had a wonderful tea teacher who came to Zen Center back in the 70s from Japan. to teach us tea, tea ceremony, tea practice. Her name was Nakamura Sensei. And I was one of her students in the tea class. And there was various tea procedures which she taught us, starting with the simplest things, like how to fold the cloth that we use to wipe the utensils, how to hold the utensils, how to walk in the room, how to receive the bowl and give the bowl. Anyway, lots of procedures she taught us, from the simplest to more complex ones.

[15:21]

And I learned some of these techniques, some of these procedures, some of these dharmas. And at the beginning, I didn't know how to do them really at all. And then I worked some more, and I kind of got the hang of it. But even so, I didn't feel like I completely mastered any of the stages. Before I mastered the first stage, the first procedure, before I mastered it, from my point of view, she taught the second one. Before I could get a hold of the first one, she taught the second one. And that was the way it was. Then I learned the second one. But before I kind of could master the second one, she moved on to the third one. And so on.

[16:24]

Before I could master the third one, she went back to the first one. And then before I could master the first one, she went to the third one. I never could master and get a hold of any of the things she taught me. And I really, looking back, really appreciate that I didn't get anything out of all the study I did with her. But it was so beautiful to not get anything from this sincere effort that we were making together And then I brought up, the last time we met in this assembly, I brought up a famous classical story of two of our ancestors. One is called the sixth ancestor, who we sometimes call by his Buddhist name Hui Nung, which means able and wisdom.

[17:36]

And... a student who came to see him, who we call Seigen Gyoshi, or Seigen in Japanese pronunciation, and in Chinese, Ching-Yuran, Ching-Yuran Shinsa. This monk came to see the sixth ancestor. So I'll tell you the whole story first, and then I'll go over it with you. So first, Ching Sa says to Wei Nong, how can I avoid falling into the bodhisattva stages? He actually said, how can I avoid falling into the stages? And the sixth ancestor said, what have you been doing up till now? And Ching Yiran said, I haven't even been practicing

[18:38]

the noble truths. And the ancestor says, well, what stage have you fallen into? And Ching Yiran said, if I haven't even practiced the noble truths, what stage could I fall into? And then the story says, the sixth ancestor could see that here was a deep, a deep vessel for the Dharma. So now I'd like to just go over the story again and give a little, imagine, give you an imaginary context for this story. So the story just says, Ching Ran went to see Hui Nung and, you know, and asked him, What did he ask him?

[19:40]

Now, here's the imaginary part. What did he ask him? He said, how can I avoid falling in, how can one avoid falling into stages? So I imagine that this monk, he was already, he was a Buddhist monk, and he had heard about the elaborate, extensive bodhisattva stages. And he may have even heard that Huinong teaches them and that the Flower Adornment Scripture teaches them. But he also may have heard that bodhisattvas are not supposed to abide in anything, that they're not supposed to abide in the stages that they're being taught. I imagine he heard these things and now he's coming to the teacher to ask, well, how can I practice these stages without falling into them? And the antichrist says, what have you been doing?

[20:43]

And he says, I haven't even practiced the noble truth. In other words, I haven't even started practicing yet. I've heard about Buddhism, but I haven't really practiced it yet. Even the most basic teachings of the first stage, I haven't practiced. But I'm concerned, if I do, that I don't fall into them. And the ancestor says, well, what stage have you fallen into? Oh, no, what have you been doing up to now? And he says, I haven't even been doing that. So the ancestor says, well, what stage could you have fallen into? And he says, well, if I haven't even started, how could I fall into anything? Right. And I think of some stories of many Zen students when they first come to a Zen center, when they walk in the door and see the meditation hall or whatever, most of them do not think, I own this hall.

[21:54]

I own this Zen center. They don't think that. Maybe some do. Like my grandson thought he owned the place when he first came. Children might go to a temple and say, oh, this is my temple. I own it. I've owned it for decades. But most adults, when they go to a Zen center, they don't walk in and say, this is my Zen center. I own it. However, if they practice at the Zen center for a while, they gradually start to think it's theirs and they own it. In other words, they start abiding in the practice. But Sagan, Ching Yiran, heard about the practices, heard about not abiding, and before he started, he wanted to know how to protect himself, and so he asked that question.

[22:56]

To abide in the stages is sometimes called Zen sickness. So there's stories about people who practiced and moved quite a way along in the path, and then they made a nest in the path. And then they were diagnosed by the teacher of having Zen sickness, which is they make a nest in something that has no place to put the nest. But they do it anyway. In celebrating this case in cell in celebrating this story about ching your own and the sixth ancestor another ancestor named case on joking Japanese ancestor he wrote a poem celebrating this case do you want to hear it okay going to

[24:10]

and fro in the way of birds. It is as if there are no tracks. How then could one seek stages along the hidden path? Going through and fro in the way of birds, it is as if there are no tracks. Then how could one seek stages along the hidden path? Yeah, but still people might try to master the first or second stage of tea ceremony. Someone might try to master the first or second of the noble truths. But they can never be mastered. We can only be devotedly, thoroughly studying them forever together. So here...

[25:12]

We see the source of this spirit of studying without getting anything in the great sutra. The sutra which gives all these teachings also says if you want to enter these teachings, if you want to enter these teachings quickly, then don't grasp them. Don't attach to anything. Even the most precious teachings, don't grasp it. Even what's most wonderful, don't grasp it. Not to mention anything else. And I see some people I didn't see before. I see, welcome Mark. Welcome Andrew. Welcome Rana. Welcome Cynthia. These are the latecomers. Any other latecomers? Okay. Well, it's been lovely seeing you, and if you have any questions about this teaching, if you want to question the teaching about questioning the teaching, if you want to question the teachings which are supposed to be questioned, you're welcome to do so.

[26:29]

And if you don't want to, you're welcome not to also. Roshi hello Great Assembly if if we can't master each step of tea ceremony where is skill in the practice of of tea ceremony well for example in my case i practiced the first thing and i got good enough i got skillful enough at the first one for her to give me the second one so she's watching me she's see i i've learned all these things i haven't mastered any of them but i have learned them quite a bit i've learned skills which i didn't know before

[27:51]

But I didn't master them, and before I thought I mastered them, and before she thought I mastered them, she moved me to the second stage. But I wouldn't be able to do the second stage if I didn't develop lots of skills in the first stage. In the second stage, the skills which I learned in the first stage would not be taught. But in order to do the second stage, I had to have the skills of the first stage. But I thought I could master the first stage. But before I thought I could, she moved me on to the second. But she didn't say, you mastered the first stage. She didn't say anything. She just taught me the second stage. She could have said, you have not mastered the first stage, but let's do the second one. So there was quite a bit of skill, but it was skill that I couldn't get a hold of. And how did that feel?

[28:54]

Well, it felt great to study as far as I studied. I was really enjoying it. And I was looking forward to consummating my training and really getting a hold of this practice. But just before I could get it... Okay, now let's move on to another one. What just came to my mind was... When I was in graduate school at the University of Minnesota, I had this vision. The vision was I had a very nice life being in graduate school. I had a nice apartment, I had great friends, I had great teachers. I got close to having the life which I wanted to have. but I didn't quite feel like I got there yet. And then I had a vision, which was, okay, I'm in graduate school, and if I keep doing what I'm supposed to be doing in this training program, are you with me, Angela?

[30:10]

Yes. I might get a PhD, and then, after that, I might become an assistant professor. And then an associate professor. And then a full professor. And then head of the department. And then a professor emeritus. And then dead. And I kind of thought, wait a minute. Something's missing. Something's missing. So you have to study quite a bit before you see something's missing. And I studied tea ceremony enough to realize that something's missing. And my impulse to get to a place where nothing was missing was not supported by the teacher. Yeah. Those are some things that came to mind. Yeah.

[31:11]

Yeah. Have you mastered Zen yet? No. Kalpas away. Kalpas and Kalpas away. But are you enjoying studying it? I am. Okay. I am. And do you notice any impulse to try to consummate, get a hold of practice? Yes, that's why I'm asking, because my mind's trying to grasp that skill and master. I'm enjoying learning this skill, and I notice I'm trying to get a hold of mastery. And I confess the impulse that to grasp mastery. Right. And I've heard that even a great ancestor had a problem with this. Yeah. And I'm sorry about it. And yeah, I wish to watch the nature of my mind and compassionately care for it as it tries to grasp.

[32:16]

Yeah. And that's part of the instruction of the sutra too. is that the bodhisattva compassionately observes her mind, and by doing that, she finally sees that there's nothing to grasp. But she notices that she's trying to grasp something for quite a while. Thank you. Well, that was a great exchange with Angela, Rabbi. Now, can you go to, you know, I think I've had suffered from Zen sickness once or twice, but you have, something's missing, something's missing, and it seems, and then the compassionate Bodhisattva says, well...

[33:27]

I will let go of something's missing. I will put aside something's missing. But it may be the case that the compassionate bodhisattva says, I will figure out how to embrace something's missing. Yeah. Embrace something's missing. If you realize something's missing, that's calling for total love. Not try to get rid of something's missing, but embrace it. And then by embracing it, you realize something's missing. And then you embrace that. And this way, you continue with us forever. Yeah, very great. Very great. Very great. Good morning.

[34:39]

Good morning. It's good to see you. Good to see you. It's actually good to see a picture of you. I can't see you, but I can see a picture of you. Yeah. Yes. So I can see how it's a problem to think, you know, this temple belongs to me, this teaching belongs to me. But what about the feeling of I belong in this place? This is where I belong. Is that a more subtle version of the same problem? I think this is where I belong is a little different from I own this place. And this is my place. And I can hold this place. I can grasp this place. I belong in this place where I don't have anything. You might feel like that. And then don't grasp that. we have or i have you know a deep wish to feel that i belong and and that is um that's a thing to investigate without grasping and you you're you are investigating right now but in your investigation is possible that you you wouldn't grasp it you just say i've got this thing that comes to visit me quite frequently a wish to belong

[36:05]

It's one of my best friends. I've had this friend for a long time. I don't know if she's a woman or a man, or I don't know if she's a storm or a song, but she comes to visit me and I love her. And I'm not trying to get rid of her. She's a beautiful sentient being. She's a wish to belong. And I'm not trying to get rid of her, but also She's in pain because she's trying to belong. So her pain is also something I embrace. And I'm not trying to get rid of her. Yeah, in doing that without saying she's good or bad. Yeah, you can do that without saying she's good or bad. And you could even say, I'm not saying she's good, I'm not saying she's bad. However, I do think that this is a

[37:06]

common characteristic of social animals that she has like humans have a concern for belonging but so do horses and the horses horse herds are matriarchal and when the kids are little uh they basically the the message they get is you belong but when they get to be teenagers they think it sometimes get a little rambunctious and so They use the belonging to train the teenager by pushing the teenager out of the herd for a while, where they're not protected by the herd. And they get scared. And then they calm down and then the matriarch welcomes them back. But it's built into them, especially when they're out of a discipline, you know, put in their room or outside, that they want to get back. So we do want to be part of the group.

[38:07]

It's a normal thing. And we should be kind to it. And the matriarch might use that thing that's in the horses, in the teenage horses, might use that, I should say, the adolescent horses to use that thing that's built into them, that wish to belong, as a training instrument to compassionately train them by working with that sense of belonging. And then they can grow up, and then they can become a matriarch, and then they know that impulse to belong, and they use it compassionately. They don't attach to it. It's just a characteristic of social animals that we can use skillfully. When you first met Suzuki Roshi, or you first came to Zen Center, did you feel like, this is where I belong? the place I have along? I think the first thing I felt, again, was... Yeah.

[39:12]

Actually, when I first went to Tassajara, this summer will be the 59th year since I was at Tassajara, I went there to visit some friends and I met some wonderful people who became my lifelong friends. And then I left. And looking back, I did not like Tassajaro. I didn't like it. However, after a little while longer, I thought, maybe I'll go live in this place I don't like. I didn't think of belonging there. I just thought, maybe this is a good place for me. So then I went back again to visit. But the next time I visited, I visited the city center. And when I went into the Zendo, I did not feel like... this is the place I belong. But I was coming to see if maybe it was a place I belonged. Maybe it would be a place where I could train. And the first thing I, and I sat down in the hall and I saw Suzuki Rishi's feet and I thought, oh, I think these feet can teach me Zen.

[40:21]

I think I found my place. And then I met him face to face and again I think, I think I found not exactly the teacher but a teacher. And I kept feeling that way for the rest of my life. I found a community. I found a teacher. I'm very grateful. But I didn't so much feel like I belonged to it. I just feel like I found a place that's good for me to practice. Thank you. Yeah. You're welcome. I'm very touched by all that has been said this morning.

[41:30]

I want to extend my gratitude. Because I see in pictures when you talk, I wondered if I could read a small thing that I wrote as you were speaking. Okay. I'm having a little trouble hearing you. Maybe you could hold up what you're reading. Okay. Is it now? Okay? Like water flowing, ice melting, steam, smoke rising, sound falling, ungraspable awe, the moment is ungraspable practice. Yeah. Excellent. Thank you. Yeah, the ice doesn't hold on to being ice. When requested, it melts. When requested by thermal energy, it melts. And it doesn't get stuck in water.

[42:31]

When it gets cold, it freezes. But it's not attached to ice or water. Or I should say, it's not attached to solid or liquid. This is the way of water. Thank you for giving birth to those images. Thank you. Hello, Ren. Hello. Welcome, Brendan.

[43:32]

So I've been reading, I think I'm reading your third book. Thank you. You're very inspirational. And I'm trying to become congruent with a concept, the teaching in Zen Buddhism. How to put these two together. We have the bodhisattva, where the bodhisattva vows to liberate all beings. things that need to liberate all beings. And then there's the idea of the teaching of no self. And the idea of liberating all beings, all sentient beings, would include not only humans, yeah? Not only humans, no. Not only humans, yeah. So, Red, the part that I get in my head a little bit with, and I'd like you to help me with this, I think of, for example, sharks. They have been in that form before the dinosaurs existed.

[44:35]

They're not evolving. They've found their form, and they're doing sharpness. I don't think they're going to come out of the water and start growing arms and legs and talking, sitting, and listening to the Dharma. So how does one get their head around liberating all... beings, all sentient beings, when it appears that many sentient beings are not about evolution. What did you say? Sentient beings what? They're not about evolution. They're not evolving. They've reached the stage of evolution. Yeah, they are evolving. They are evolving, but they're primarily about evolution. of being diluted and trying to reproduce. Sentient beings are basically about being confused and diluted.

[45:36]

Yes. Yes. But the idea that the form of a shark, for example, or a horseshoe crab, that form is not evolving. Like humans... Well, you have to have generation... Evolution doesn't occur right now. It occurs in many generations. And a shark, if a shark meets a bodhisattva in the water, if that shark has a dialogue with the bodhisattva, their mind evolves. Your mind changes at that moment. It's not so much evolves, they just change when they meet the bodhisattva. And the way they might change is that it might become free of something so they can hear the teaching and if they can hear the teaching then they're liberated while they're still a shark they don't have to become a different kind of shark you don't have to become a different kind of a human to be liberated and once you're liberated you can practice and although and then and then and then you

[46:58]

within this form, of this human form, you evolve as a bodhisattva. Bodhisattva evolution does not require reproduction, does not require being in the next generation. You can evolve in this generation. You can evolve from a sentient being who is attached to the teaching to one who is devoted to the teaching without attachment in this life. And so in this life, you can realize liberation. And you can teach other beings in this life how to practice in such a way to evolve from attachment to letting go. And sharks are harder because, for us anyway, because we, what I call it, we are not so comfortable in the water, but it is possible for some bodhisattvas, human bodhisattvas, to go into the water and transmit the dharma to sharks.

[48:05]

And for the sharks to become... And sharks are suffering. Sharks are also deluded. They also are prone to attach to things, so they're also prone to suffering. So I also want to liberate the sharks from suffering. So the second thank you for that. I will stick with that. By the way, there's a movie called Octopus Teacher. Yeah, I've seen it. Yeah, incredible. So some people might say there's a bodhisattva in the form of an octopus teaching humans and teaching others. The octopus is in the water teaching the fishes and the other invertebrates. There's a bodhisattva in the form of an octopus teaching humans and other vertebrates and invertebrates, possibly.

[49:10]

So when we meet that octopus, we evolve. We might evolve. For example, in respecting octopi more than we used to. That's an evolution of us. Okay. Okay? So that rolls me into the second part of the question, which is that if someone truly undertakes the bodhisattva valve completely and is vowing to liberate all beings, there is innately in that an agreement to keep returning because there are a lot of beings to liberate. Beings are not being liberated that easily. You know, like when I walk around the mall here, you know, I live in Medellin, Colombia, and I'm walking by all these beings, and I think, okay, I'm just going to extend compassion for their liberation, for their freedom.

[50:13]

And there's a lot, a lot of beings out there. And my observation is there's very few that are interested in liberation, from my observation. So that would mean coming back a lot of times. So my question is, who's coming back? So that's your question, who's coming back? Oh, because there's no self. Understanding is there's not somebody who you said who is coming back. OK, so when I hear who I hear an acronym. World honored one. So when you say who's coming back, I hear world honored ones coming back. The World Honored One is in this process of being born and dying every moment. So the World Honored One doesn't come back. The World Honored One is always here in the midst of change. The World Honored One is always here in the midst of birth and death.

[51:21]

And Bodhisattvas vow to join the World Honored One in this work. of the Buddha way. And by the way, your observation of these people who do not seem to be interested in liberation, that's your observation, okay? And it might be mine too. I might meet someone, I might be walking through the marketplace and I might say to someone, or they might say to me, how come you have a shaved head? And I say, well, I'm a Buddhist priest. They say, what's that about? I say, what's about liberating beings? And they might say, oh, well, I'm not interested in liberation, they might say to me. Sure. But the Buddha might be standing next to me and say, they say they're not interested in liberation, but they are. They just don't know it yet. And they're working, not only are they working on liberation, they're working on liberating others. But they don't know it yet.

[52:23]

So... Some Buddhas have told us, they see a suffering being, the ocean of suffering beings, and they say all those beings want to become Buddhas, but they don't yet know it. But in some cases, the person says to the Bodhisattva, how come you have a shaved head? And the Bodhisattva says, because I want to give my life to liberation of all beings. And sometimes the person in the marketplace says, Oh, could I learn that? I want to learn that. But sometimes, and so they do know they want to learn that, the path of liberating all beings. But the person next to them says, Brendan, you're so silly. That's ridiculous. Let's get out of here. But again, the Lotus Utter says, everybody wants to, even though they don't know it. And if they want to know it, we have practices for you to discover.

[53:25]

that you do want this. You want the liberation of all beings, and you want to devote yourself to them. But, again, right now, you don't see it. So the Lord Sutta says, although you don't see it yet, that's really the path you're on. And if you would practice being upright and flexible and harmonious and honest, you will see that you want to do this practice. And so did the sharks. Thank you. You're welcome. Hi, Rob.

[54:27]

Happy birthday. Thank you. I wish you many, many more. And may you stay a long time to teach the Dharma. Wouldn't that be great? I jotted down a couple of notes. Can I just go through them as you were talking? You had said, don't grasp at the teachings. I didn't say don't. I didn't say don't. What I said was the instruction is for bodhisattvas not to. I'm not telling you don't. I'm saying the instruction is to have a mind that doesn't. That was my interpretation. I don't tell you not to do things. I'm just telling you how bodhisattvas act. And then it's up to you. You want to learn that. So how does one teach without grasping at what one has realized?

[55:32]

And I was thinking of that as just forget the specifics, forget the information, but embody the heart and offer the living Dharma in action. Yeah. So this, what I'm bringing up today is to embody the living dharma in action is to receive it and not grasp it. And then you will enter it and embody it. How do you enter and embody it? By receiving it and not grasping it. Just now you asked a question. I gave an answer. And you might have received it and not grasped it. But also, you might have received it and tried to grasp it. You made a facial expression which looked like you received it, but then it looked like you tried to get it.

[56:35]

I'm playing with that. So again, be kind to that trying to get it, but realize there's a mind which receives it and doesn't get anything. Can offering be part of that? Yeah. Non-grasping? Yeah. When you receive it, you can receive it, and then at the same time you receive it, you give it. Yes. Thank you. You're welcome. Hello, Rab. Hello, Rana. I apologize to everyone because I had eye surgery, so I have to look like a rock and roll star.

[57:48]

Well, I appreciate your teaching because it always provokes something. And I was debating, does it worth that I open my mouth or not? And then I thought, oh, maybe you're scared. And I said, okay, if I'm scared, let me try to go and say something. I'm thinking about And the word knowing, this knowing, there are moments that we know and we don't have any doubt. We know. We see, we recognize, we know. And there are times that this, we go through this knowing and get closer to not knowing. And the more The more we know, the more we know.

[58:51]

We don't know. And then... The more you investigate the knowing, you discover not knowing. Yes. And then if you investigate the not knowing, you discover knowing. Right. Right. So they have... Yeah, they work together. They do. And they work together best when we don't abide in either. Good to see you. Thank you. And by the way, what you said about coming to these talks and how they provoke something. Somebody came and saw me one time. He used to go to Green Gulch to the talks that I gave. And... to the talks that I gave away.

[59:53]

And he said, you know, honestly, I don't really know what you said. I know. But the reason I go is because of what I think about when I listen to you. I really like what I think about when I'm in one of your talks. How we can get rid of... Thank you. You're welcome. Hello, Rev. Hello, Maggie. Hello, great, lovely assembly. Thanks for your talk. So I also feel that your talk is a great help for me to investigate or to question my practice.

[61:04]

Great. And I do sometimes reflect or question my practice. But it seems to me that I seldom found that I have peace. After investigation, I find, oh, this time I did wrong. Maybe another time I didn't do it well. So when I investigate, I find problems or I find doubt. Did I do it right or wrong? That gives me an uneasy feeling. So today when I'm listening to your talk, then I was investigating more on my doubt, why I am not feeling peace when I'm doing this investigation.

[62:11]

Am I trying to... grasp a definite answer it looks like that i was maybe secretly i was expecting when i investigate i want to find an answer yes i did it right or yeah i want to find a very clear answer to myself so that i can feel peace but most of the time i don't i don't i don't find a satisfactory answer when i reflect what i did this way or that way So I'm wondering, is it because why I'm doing the investigation? I'm trying to get something out of that. It seems to me that I could never get a clear answer to myself.

[63:14]

Yes, I did it right. Now I can sleep. No, it seems to me always, I always question myself. No, I didn't do it in a way that I wanted or I was never sure whether I did it right or wrong. And some saying that I did seemingly even against some precept. Last time I heard your talk about, you know, the first practice of the non- indulgence you were talking a long time about the precept but you were also saying that precepts is calling us to question the precept itself and sometimes for example also it's also others questioning you yeah and you questioning others you know it uprightly being questioned and that and that's what you're doing right now You are questioning yourself.

[64:18]

Yeah. Let me just say something, okay? I don't want to bother you by giving you a great compliment, but... In chapter 18, after the bodhisattva vigorous wisdom asks wonderful questions and tells about... and tells about her questioning practice, shows her questioning practice. She questions and questions and questions and questions. Then Dharma wisdom says, very good. Very good, child of Buddha. Very good. You ask that question to help many beings. You ask that question to bring peace to many beings. You ask that question because you're liberated. So your questions are wonderful.

[65:24]

And you said, I can't ever say that I really understand. Something like that? Not sure. Not sure, yeah. I can't ever be sure. And maybe for the rest of your life, you won't ever be sure. But when you first started practicing, you might have thought a few minutes that you were sure. So... Dogen teaches us, when the Dharma does not fill your body and mind, you're sure. But when it fills your body and mind, you're not sure. So, unfortunately, the Dharma seems to be filling, not unfortunately, fortunately, the Dharma does seem to be filling your body and mind, and so you're not sure. And I'm here to encourage you to allow that sense of not being sure. And to allow the, maybe some, a little bit, what's the word?

[66:29]

Lack of peace. Yeah. Coming with the not sure. That's a bit pain. A pain. It is a pain. There's a pain with not being sure. But it is possible. for the bodhisattva to be full of joy with the pain of not being sure. Because she understands that bodhisattvas have a little pain or a lot of pain until they finish their job of liberating all beings. They don't finish the job and say bye-bye to suffering. I'm in peace. See you later. Like one of the recent talks, I started by telling my granddaughter, telling me that she learned at school there's two kinds of Buddhism. Nirvana, peace, and helping people. That's what she learned. But when you're helping people, you feel their pain.

[67:34]

Buddha is at peace, but he feels the pain of all the beings who are not yet at peace. And even for Buddha, something's missing. Namely, we all have more work to do. So, your questions are wonderful questions. They're indications that the Dharma is filling your body and mind. And what's missing is confidence in this questioning, in this doubt. But the doubt comes from taking in lots of Dharma. So I hope you can practice patience with the pain of the Dharma filling your body and making you feel there's more to know, more to be sure about, without trying to get anything.

[68:37]

But if you do try to get something, then be kind to that. And if it's painful not getting anything, be kind to the pain of not getting anything. The Buddha says to Subuddhi, when I attained unsurpassed complete perfect enlightenment, was there any dharma that I attained? And Subuddhi says, no, Lord, you did not attain the slightest dharma. Therefore, it's complete perfect enlightenment. But before complete perfect enlightenment, we still might want to attain something. To get a Dharma. Like peace. Yes. And Buddha does not push that way. Buddha accepts that somebody's trying to get peace. She's welcome here. I'm welcome.

[69:46]

I need to learn to practice. Embracing the unpeace part. Yes. Turbulent part. Yes. Me too. Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you. Thank you for your wonderful talk. Thank you. So first of all, the first thought I had was, oh, he's let me off the hook. Because I'm definitely not abiding in the practice. At least not to my end. I'm often in conflict with myself. Like, why am I not being better at this? And I felt like you helped to alleviate that question. To question it is the good part. The answering isn't necessary.

[70:49]

That's the hidden path. So thank you for that. And for your humor. I laughed a lot during this talk. I hope that's not offensive to anyone. In all joyous respect. And the one question or kind of rain of sand that struck me or came to me is the word want that um we want all sentient beings to be free suffering and i think it when you were talking about the shark in in that discussion um i I felt very clearly that the bodhisattva in my mind that was underwater meeting the shark that was evolving very, very slowly, that part of what it is to liberate may be accepting the other as whatever they are, not as the image that

[72:04]

I project. So I see this shark as a dangerous animal that can bite my leg off or whatever it can do. And that's not that's respecting the shark as being fully a shark. And so some of it may maybe rose or rose in my mind the idea of the boundary of liberation, that perhaps, and maybe this is my question, I was having trouble formulating it into a question, but could the liberation be the boundary between my wish to liberate you and your liberation, that they may not look the same, that... What I want for you and what you want for me may not be exactly the same.

[73:10]

And yet, if we can have this conversation, then we're liberating something. Is that a question even? I don't know. Okay. So, thank you. It's mostly what my... message would be, and happy birthday. By the way, it's not my birthday. I want to know it soon. Happy birthday any day of the month. Happy birthday all month. Yeah, right. All year. Thank you. You're welcome. Hi, Reb. Hi, Justin. Thank you for your teaching today. Brendan's question about the shark and Barbara Joan bringing up the shark again made me think of a story.

[74:16]

Something happened to me. Can I tell it? I was going down Mount Tam many years ago from Panorama to Edgewood, and it was dark early in the morning around 5 o'clock. and i came around a corner and there were two baby deer in the middle of the road and they were just frozen and one was on kind of in front of my car and one was in the opposite lane and uh they weren't moving and they seemed like they were just you know very scared and um i was worried a car was going to come around the other corner and just hit one of them was right around right from the other turn so i i I wasn't sure what to do. I waited a moment and then I decided I'm not going to go around them and just go. I'm not going to sit around and watch a car hit one of them. So I said, I'm just going to get out of the car and try and pick them up. And I got out of the car and my focus was on my breathing and my focus was on

[75:29]

not thinking and dropping all thought. And my intention was to, if I can demonstrate that, you know, we're, we're here for more than our own survival. And these were the thoughts that were having across my head. And I walked out of the car and I picked one up in each arm. They allowed me to pick them up. And, and I walked them over the side of the road, put them on, on the, on the, in the, in the weeds and saw them run off with mom. Um, but it was a very liberating moment for me and I hope it was for the deer too. And, uh, um, you know, I know this is very different from a shark. Um, but, uh, you know, it, it really, um, I don't know. I felt like it was a moment where I was able to, to connect with an animal animals in a, in a, in a deep way. And, and, um, deepen my faith that our consciousnesses are connected.

[76:36]

I just wanted to share that story. Thank you so much. Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you for the story of the tea ceremony teaching. I heard you talk about that before, but I haven't heard it that way. And that teaching of non-abiding or non-abiding in the teaching, moving on to something before you can grasp the first thing, it just feels like, maybe this is obvious, but it feels like it applies across anything we... practice, anything we study, anything or anybody we meet.

[77:38]

And so for me, for some reason, that story resonated for me as far as how we meet others, how we meet a person, how we develop a relationship or our story of who they are and what we offer to them as our story of who we are, both as sort of the T student and the T teacher. in meeting someone, there are these pitfalls where someone says, well, what do you do? And it's this thing where, like, I hate that question personally. Like, you know, do they want you to say, oh, well, I'm a doctor, you know, or I'm a musician, you know, or like, here's my story and identity you can grasp. Let me offer you something. And some people get really uncomfortable if you don't offer them a very graspable story right away. Mm-hmm. And I get uncomfortable when they try to get a graspable story out of me. And so that practice of non-abiding, there's such an art to it, as we see in the tea ceremony.

[78:44]

But in relationships, I find like, well, I try to give them an answer that causes them to ask more questions or to call me into question. Or I try to make them laugh or I try to say something that they're going to stop. and open up a new avenue of questioning, and basically to do that endlessly so that we never get at a place where we've, okay, now I've figured out who you are, now I've grasped you. But seeing it from your story, I was seeing the student's role, the teacher's role, and not that, you know, I mean, who knows who the student is and who the teacher is when you meet someone. You know, when you meet someone, you're like, you're learning them, they're learning you, so you're both in both roles. Um, and it's, uh, for me, I don't know. I guess I just, I just traveled. I'm in a new place right now for, for a few days and I'm meeting a lot of people I haven't seen in years or I've never met before. And I'm doing this practice of not abiding in telling them who I am or in having a very simple story of who they are, but the questioning and opening.

[79:52]

So I wonder if, if that's, uh, if that's what you're talking about. That's what I'm talking about. Mm-hmm. That, That exploration, that investigation. Well, I listened to it because I couldn't... Also, I... If somebody asked... If somebody would say to me, what do you do? Not that I'm giving you an answer. I really, you know, I'm not sure what I do. But I can tell them what I aspire to. But I'm not saying I do the thing I aspire to. And this conversation with them is what I aspire to. I aspire to have conversations where people ask me what I do, and I actually tell them the truth. I don't know. I don't do being a Zen priest.

[80:55]

I don't do Reb, but I do have a name. And so what do you do? Well, I have a name, but I don't really do that. I don't know what I do, but I do aspire to have conversations where I can be honest with people like I am with you. And if they say, you know, you're really a weirdo, I might say, I'm here to listen to you say that. And a lot of people share your view of me. Do you find that you have to consciously strike a balance between... being too much of a weirdo like giving them a giving them a response that that's so so weird it's not funny for them or so or causes them to call way too much into question not just a little bit into question like you have to somehow give them what they're asking for but but maybe just a little weird yeah actually um the last time I know abode

[81:57]

one of the people in the assembly, Barry, asked me to elaborate on something. A text. So, I started to comment on the text. But the way I commented on the text, most people didn't think I was commenting on the text. But that was my comment. My weird comment was the one I gave. So then they said, you know, give them a different comment. Give him a different elaboration. So then I gave a different elaboration, which was more in accord with what people thought he wanted. But I don't necessarily, when people ask me for an elaboration, I don't necessarily think, what elaboration do they want? And let's do that one. I might just say, well, how about this one? And they might say, that's not the elaboration I want. And I might say, what one do you want? And they might tell me. And I say, well, thank you. And that conversation, I would say, was an elaboration, even if we don't go any further.

[83:02]

And I could say, this conversation with you that I'm having now, of you asking me to elaborate on a text, and me having this strange response, and getting feedback of how strange it is, and then offering something that's less strange, it's all part of the process. And I think the general consensus is, This guy is really weird. And I'm okay with that. If I could say one more thing. Artists and philosophers and revolutionaries and Zen teachers have been exiled and tried for heresy and basically maybe not achieved what they were going for when they're too weird. So isn't that sort of what... I don't know what the Buddha calls skillful means. Like, isn't that that practice of not being too weird? Yeah, I just gave. I was apparently too weird.

[84:05]

The way I was, people thought I wasn't responding, even though my response was something, which they called not the appropriate response. And I accepted that. For me, that's fine. For me, somebody asked me for X, and I give... Well, possible X. I don't know if it's really the X they're asking for, but I thought they asked for X, and here's an X. And they say, no, that's not what I want. And I might try again. They say, no, that's not what I want. And then tell me more what you want, and then I'll try to do what they want. And they might say, yeah, that's more like it. This is a story I've often told before. In my early days of... Listening to Suzuki Rashi, one of the early talks I heard him give, he said, sort of, he said, I'm not enlightened. And that was sort of not what I was looking for, that the teacher was not enlightened.

[85:09]

But I heard him say he wasn't. I said, okay, he's not enlightened. I still really think he's really good to be with, even though he's not enlightened. That's not what I wanted. And then maybe the next week he said, I'm Buddha. And I thought, yeah, that's more what I'm looking for. So, he wasn't what I was looking for, and I could accept it, but if I couldn't, he might have said, okay, okay, I'm enlightened. If you can't handle that I'm not enlightened, I'll be enlightened. For you, I'm enlightened. You feel better? Yes, sir. Thank you. So we don't want to be rigid in not doing what they're expecting. But give it a try. And if this doesn't work, don't adhere to being a weirdo. I am a weirdo, apparently. I went with my daughter when I was with my daughter and my grandson.

[86:18]

her son and my wife, and I had my robe, not my full robes, but this kind of robes on, and I had a hat, a sun hat, and we were walking through a strip mall, or one of those, what do you call it, those discount malls. We were walking through, and my daughter noticed that people were looking at me, and she said, I'm walking with a weirdo in a safari hat. People, you know, I do look unusual. Not always, but usually I look unusual. And usually people are fairly tolerant of it. But if they're not, okay, I'll change my clothes. I'm not attached to being unusual, to being a weirdo. It just turns out that's usually the way it is. Thank you.

[87:20]

Yeah, you're welcome. By the way, I have a t-shirt which I wore recently going to this gym which I go to. And the t-shirt has a picture of a Buddha riding a motorcycle. And the title on it is Hell's Buddhas. Okay, thank you. I want to call next on Koji, because she hasn't been called on yet. Hi, Rob. So nice to see you. And thank you for being online, because it's the only way I get to see you. But I am moving back to California in August, so I'll be coming to the new abode. Great. Yeah. But yeah, I was just having a question about who is liberating who?

[88:23]

Because like when you were talking about liberating the sharks, et cetera. So if we could have an intimate, upright conversation, you and me. Before I get into it, I can't resist the acronym. Who is liberating who? World Honored One is liberating World Honored One. World Honored One is an intimate conversation with World Honored One. It's really the intimate conversation that liberates us. You and I are in this conversation. It's not that I'm liberating you or you're liberating me. Our upright, genuine, wholehearted conversation liberates both of us and not just us. Okay. I think that's clear to me.

[89:24]

But I guess when you said, like, we are liberating the sharks from suffering. I would say I aspire to my conversation with sharks to be liberating. Whereas I would see it more as the sharks are liberating me. Yeah, well, I'm not liberating the shark and the shark's not liberating me. Okay. We're kind of liberating each other. my conversation with the shark liberates the shark and me and i hope to libera i hope that the shark is liberated in my relationship with the shark but i'm not doing the liberation the shark yeah yeah that's what i was unclear about because i didn't mean the shark are contributing to the conversation okay i get it now thank you thank you for thank you for pointing out i aspire to me and the shark being liberated. But I don't do the liberation. The shark doesn't do it.

[90:26]

But all of us together in conversation. Thank you for clarifying that, Rob. Thank you for questioning me. I look forward to seeing you in person. Do we have one more question? Did we respond? Oh, yes. Thank you. This is sort of a follow-up. In your book, Nothing to Attain, there's a story of a person who gets lost, finds home, doesn't know that he's at home, but eventually he does. He does understand that. And I feel like there's sort of a tension or a dialogue between the title Nothing to Attain and the understanding of actually being in the place where he belongs. And I wonder if you could say something about that. Okay, so I don't understand where I am.

[91:33]

I don't understand that this is where I really am and this is how I really am. And then I realize this is how I am and this is how I really am and there's nothing to attain. And I have this realization, but I didn't get anything. I just realized that there's nothing to get other than being this. There's nothing but this conversation right now. And before, I thought there was something besides this conversation. At the beginning of the conversation, I thought that later in the conversation, I would get something. But then I realized, no, there's nothing to get. So I did wake up to that there was nothing to get. But I had to have the conversation in order to realize that there's nothing to get from this conversation. Because before the conversation, I thought there would be something to get if I had a conversation with somebody about something. There's something about the story that's kind of hopeful.

[92:38]

And I know hope is a strange thing, but hopeful that, you know, we will understand at some point that we're where we belong. Yep, the story is saying you will realize that you are a bodhisattva. You will. Maybe you don't know, but you're going to. And when you do, you'll understand that you always were. And you didn't get anything. And yet, you're very happy. I see. Thank you. Okay. Now I'm surveying the great assembly. For a while there was more than 90 people. Now there's 73. That's a lot. I'm so happy to see you all. And I don't know why the other people left.

[93:40]

I don't think it's because they were bored with you and me. No, not that. I don't think they thought what we were saying was really not worth listening to. They probably just had to go to lunch. Or dinner. Or who knows what. But we have people here from all over the world, and we're so fortunate to be together having this conversation, which is liberation. We're practicing liberation right now. Congratulations to us.

[94:08]

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