So the sutra was discussing this thing called non-indulgence or non-negligence. And it says that if bodhisattvas abide in ten things, this is called non-indulgence or non-negligence. And that says, what are these ten? And number one was to guard and uphold the many precepts. And we talked about that somewhat. And I also wanted to say, one of my notes says, bodhisattva precepts are veritable conversation. Bodhisattva precepts are real, genuine conversation. bodhisattva precepts are intimate conversation so one of the precepts is the precept of not killing and I suggest to you that not killing is intimate conversation when we have intimate conversation that is the precept of not killing

[01:30]

And so on. Intimate conversation is reality. In reality, there is no killing. But as you know, in delusion, there seems to be lots of killing. And in delusion, there's lots of... insincere or incomplete conversation or one-sided conversation. A friend of mine says, so-and-so is really good at upholding their side of the conversation. In other words, they do all the talking and they go on for a long time. And quite a few people came and talked to me about, you know, trying too hard, working too hard, and working not hard enough to talk about that, and to look at that issue, to watch out for overworking.

[03:05]

Usually people know they're supposed to be watching out for underworking. In the world, you're not supposed to underwork. But you don't hear so much about not supposed to overwork. But it's becoming more common for people to recognize that overwork is unwholesome. Usually. Not always. Sometimes it's good to overwork. But not as an addiction. The middle way which the Buddha found was between the extreme of addiction to underwork or the addiction to overwork. But sometimes it's good to underwork. That's not an extreme. That's just underworking when it's appropriate. Like, for example, you're cleaning a temple or you're cleaning your house. and you're cleaning with some other people, and you let them do some of it.

[04:14]

You don't do it all. You do less than you could do. You underwork so that they have a chance to work. And between the two of you, or the three of you, you find out all of you doing a good amount and nobody hogging the work. So from a certain point of view, you're underworking. You're doing less than you could so that other people can join you. And as I mentioned to somebody, I know some people who work very hard. It is amazing how hard they work. It's amazing, just amazing. It's like a force of nature how hard they work. However, some of these people look down on other people who do not work as hard as they do. So they're working really hard, and they're working with other people who are working really hard, but not as hard as them, and they look down on these people.

[05:20]

And these people who are working hard feel disrespected and demeaned, even though they're working hard. It's a sad situation. So there's nine more things to look at to develop this diligence. Diligence as the partner to non-diligence. And non-negligence as opposed to negligence. There's ten things to work on. We dealt with the first one.

[06:21]

And I thank you for all the examples that you brought up today to look at this question. And so I had the thought that we could work quite a while in the next nine. But before we get into the next nine, is there anything you want to bring up? Yes. and maybe you were saying the other precepts do. What are you saying? Oh, I'm saying that reality is we're in conversation with everybody. And when you're in intimate conversation, when I look at intimate conversation, I cannot see any killing. When I see killing, I'm seeing a world where this person's dominating this person, or this person's dominating this.

[07:27]

this being. They're not really like saying, for example, may I touch you? They just touch somebody. That's not a conversation. That's just them expressing themselves without any consultation, without any questioning. They're in a relationship with somebody where they're not asking the person, would it be all right with you if I touched you? Well, sometimes when you touch people, they consider that killing. Have you heard of, should I say, rape? How about that? Sexual harassment? They touch somebody. without asking the person how that is for them. And the person actually, if they were to ask, the person would say, no, don't touch me.

[08:30]

But they didn't ask. They thought they'd do somebody a favor by touching them. In reality, there's no one-sided activity going on. In reality, we're doing things together. You can say over your head or you can say under your feet. It's all around you and this is pervading you. This is what Buddha sees. Buddha sees everybody working together. Buddha sees that everybody possesses the wisdom and virtues of the Buddhas. That's what Buddha sees. Everybody's in this wisdom virtue event. Buddha does not see me killing it. If Buddha... You don't have to bring a gun.

[09:32]

If Buddha's watching you and him and then Buddha sees you reach over to touch him, Buddha understands how that's a conversation. But if you don't understand how it's a conversation, then you think you can touch him without talking to them. So you don't understand how it's a conversation. You think you can touch him without asking him. That's not a conversation. A conversation, you respect the other person. So if I do something to somebody and I'm not being respectful, that's not conversation. Now, did that go over your head? Okay, so... Well, again, again... If you are having a conversation with an animal, if it's a conversation where you're listening to them, do you think you would slaughter them?

[10:42]

Do you think you would be unkind to some being? Are you saying there's no killing in the whole world? I'm saying killing is occurring when you don't see the conversation. Yes. If pulling up spinach from the ground is done without me respecting the spinach, that's not a conversation with the spinach. But where there's a conversation with spinach, there's no killing of spinach. And conversation looks like respecting the person, the being that you're relating to. It means respecting them. Deeply respecting them. And being gentle with them. And questioning them. And let them question you.

[11:46]

So people get into situations where they say, I do not have time to question people. Then they're saying, I don't have time for conversation. Then they're saying... I don't have time for reality. I'm saying that. People who don't have time to talk to people sincerely and with mutual respect, then they're basically saying, I'm not up for Buddhism. I'm not up for Buddha Dharma because I'm too busy. I got to kill this cow soon. Otherwise, I'm going to lose my job. So for the sake of keeping my job, I'm not going to ask the cow if it's okay that I would touch them, that I would hit them, that I would knock them out. I'm not going to ask them. And I would agree, I'm not having a conversation with the cow. And also with the human, if I say I'm not going to ask them about whether they're ready to hear me, I don't have time for that.

[12:53]

Then you're saying, I don't have time for a conversation, which you're saying, I don't have time to open to the truth. Opening to the truth means opening to the people you're talking to and respecting them and being careful of them and being patient with the pain and fear of being with them. We can't have a conversation if we're not being kind to our fear of each other. humans are often afraid of each other. And if we're afraid of each other and don't work with that fear by asking the person if they want to hear from you and maybe they say yes and say, I want to tell you I'm afraid of you. Are you afraid of me? This kind of thing is a situation in which there's no killing. But if we don't have that,

[13:55]

Then we're, what do you call it? We are, what's the word? We're turning away from, we're ignoring reality. So ignorance ignores the conversation which is reality. We are ignorant of it. We're born ignorant of it. And we have to have an educational process to recover from our ignorance of others. this conversation of this dependent core rising of everything together. We ignore that. And then we go on this trip of misery because we ignore reality. But conversation is very, very... What's the word? I don't want to say demanding, but it's labor-intensive.

[14:55]

It requires so much. It requires the most of us to have a conversation. Reality requires all of us. And we have a habit of being sometimes not giving all of us, but giving more than us or less than us. Yes? Well, sometimes silence is good, but what Did you say, I don't know what to do?

[15:57]

Well, it depends on what you want in the world. If you want to benefit beings, if you want to be awake and skillful, then what's required of you is to have a conversation with this person. Right in the middle of them being angry with you, yeah. Don't wait for them to stop being angry and then try to have a conversation. Try to have it now. And one way to try to have it is to say, may I ask a question? And they might say, no. And then you might say, OK. But you're starting a conversation. You're saying, may I ask a question? That's a start. You're giving yourself. Or you could even say, I'd like to have a conversation with you. May I? May we have a conversation? And they might say, no. And you might say, May I say something? And they might say, no, but you're talking.

[16:59]

And then you would say, could I talk to you later? And they might say, OK. If you keep trying, they'll give you a chance, especially if you keep giving, giving, giving. What? Giving you, who wants to have a conversation. If they start seeing that you respect them, even when they're angry, and you want to relate to them, even when they're angry, you're starting the conversation. It isn't necessarily fully realized, because maybe not both parties are willing to wholeheartedly engage, but we're working towards that. We're working towards wholehearted engagement in the midst of anger and fear and confusion. and greed to have some other conversation than this one. I must say I was kind of confirmed by a recent New Yorker cartoon.

[18:06]

I've often said to people, I don't usually go to, I don't go to cocktail parties. I have been to some in my life, like about maybe 50 years ago I went to a cocktail party. But I didn't enjoy it. I thought maybe I was not in a good, wholesome place to practice. Because almost everybody I met, as soon as I met them, they were looking to see if there's somebody more interesting to talk to than me. And then somebody would introduce another person to them, and they'd say, oh, hi. And then they start looking around the room for somebody more interesting than me. But almost everybody's looking for somebody more interesting than the person they're talking to. And so the recent New Yorker cartoon, it's quite recent, has all these people in the cocktail party with these bubbles above their head, and everyone's saying, is there somebody more interesting to talk to? They're all thinking that. That's what I mean by I don't want to go there.

[19:09]

What? Yeah, I think I would avoid going. I would avoid going into a situation... where I think it's set up to basically not pay attention to the person you're talking to. It's unwritten, but that's what almost everybody does. Almost everybody does that at a cocktail party. They're all looking for something else besides what's happening. And they even, like, they introduce you to this person, but then they take you away from this person to introduce you to another person. It's like, it's, oh, I say, it's extremely advanced. To be able to go there and be with people who don't want to talk to you, they'd rather talk to somebody more interesting. And no matter who you are, they want to talk to someone more interesting. And if you're super famous, it's the same. They want to get away from you because they're afraid of being with this famous person. But can you go into that situation and really interact with people who don't want to interact with you?

[20:20]

Well, maybe one. If you meet one person that doesn't want to interact with you, they have a chance. But a room full of them? So I'm not saying I recommend you avoid it, but I'm sort of recommending. It's too advanced for almost anybody to have a meaningful conversation in a cocktail party. Buddha maybe can do it. Most of us cannot. So generally speaking... Buddha does not recommend the disciples to go to cocktail parties, but definitely recommends to go and have wholehearted conversations with people. So where can we have a chance? And somebody like you really feel a strong need to have genuine conversation with your family members because you can't get away from them. It's not just a cocktail party. You have to live with them So you really need, I don't want you to avoid them unless, for example, they're drug addicts or alcoholics.

[21:29]

Then maybe you get away from them and tell them, I'll talk to you when you're in recovery. So if you want to talk to me, please enter into recovery and then we can talk. But basically, you still have to work with them. We need to have whole genuine conversations with everybody. in order to have a peaceful world. And of course, even with one person, it's really hard. So I pray that you have, what's the word, the courage and the inspiration to talk to people who are angry with you. Anger is a little bit more engaged than looking for somebody else to talk to. They don't even notice you enough to get angry. Yes? Sometimes I hear you and I get confused.

[22:35]

Sometimes I hear you and it's very clear. So I want to pay attention to what is it that it's said that I see clearly, what is it that you said I realized when you are saying conversation, being in the conversation with the person, when I use instead of you or another person, if I say to myself, be present to the moment, the moment I say to be present to the moment, then I start to think, okay, am I agitated to the moment? Am I disturbed to the moment? Am I scared to the moment? So it makes it easy for me to do not killing, which is what you're saying, is do not kill what's rising in the moment.

[23:49]

So when I hear it in that form, which you do say sometimes, and then bring Buddha, yes, Buddha is the form, therefore is present to all forms equally? And am I, do I, would I have that capacity when I am in the moment to be nobody? That's a lot of questions. That's another question. You asked another question. And I'm emphasizing that those are good questions, but that's not talking about somebody else calling you into question. What we need is not just to question ourselves, we need to question others and we need them to question us. Otherwise, we're not having a conversation fully. But questioning ourselves is good and it's part of the story. You have to what?

[24:54]

You have to learn, yeah. And also... That's fine. That's fine that you see that we're similar. That's fine. That's good. However, that's not enough. You need to have people question what you see. You think you see this way. But other people might say, do you think you see that? We need that. Because otherwise, I'm questioning myself. but I can still touch this person without talking to them. The touching needs to be a conversation. This hand is asking a question. Is it the right time to touch this person? Or to wave to this person? Or to welcome this person?

[25:55]

Is it enough to say that people who don't engage in conversation are outside reality? No. I would say they're not outside conversation. They're not outside reality. They're ignoring it. We are. Actually, in reality, we are in conversation with the whole universe. That's what the sutra is saying. Nobody's not in conversation with the whole universe. But quite a few people are ignoring that. And the way we're in conversation with the whole universe is the way we are endowed with wisdom and virtue of the Buddhas. Buddhas are just like us. Buddhas are a conversation. But Buddhas do not ignore it. But sentient beings, who are just like Buddhas, who are in the same conversation as Buddhas and with Buddhas, sentient beings, for various reasons, ignore this.

[27:14]

And therefore, they act like they're ignorant. So they think they can do things by themselves. They think they can act unilaterally because they're ignoring that we can't act unilaterally. They're ignoring that really Our reality is we respect other people. We appreciate them. But we ignore that. And we're built to ignore it. And ignoring it has various evolutionary power. For example, in mating, you ignore your competitors. The ones who ignore the competitors and don't respect the competitors, they're the ones... who reproduce. And the ones who are respectful just wait in line and don't get a chance. So we're biologically built to be selfish for the sake of our genes. But there's a practice to free us from our genetic predisposition to be concerned with this body and this mind and not to respect all other bodies and minds.

[28:26]

We ignore that reality. Yes. So we had evolution, which made miserable, suffering beings who get together and make more miserable, suffering beings. And somewhere along the way, somebody noticed that there was this suffering, and they noticed where it came from. Namely, they noticed it came from ignorance. Somebody kind of got a hint there. And then it got developed so that Buddha realized, oh... This whole thing depends on ignorance. And that's just ignorance. And there's no belief in it anymore. So somebody woke up. And not just Shakyamuni Buddha, but infinite Buddhas woke up to ignorance and saw it for what it was. And in ignorance, they had this great awakening to see what's really going on, what's really going on.

[29:31]

is not killing. What's really going on is intimate communion with all beings, which we are built to ignore for the sake of winning an argument rather than the sake of communication. Yes? Well, I really like your understanding of the expression tete-a-tete, like head-to-head, face-to-face, and you take it to the level intimacy. And so I think when you're having an intimate, you know, close, true exchange with people in the conversation, which I think is turning with, like returning, [...] it becomes a circle, really. And while you're doing that, you don't need to question how you feel, you know, because you know how you feel. And so I think That, I mean, that's how he was described.

[30:36]

It's not just... That also brings people together to continue their genes. It's not just that I don't know. So I think that having to continue their genes and also variety... Yeah, right. Yes, that's one of us. Let's just follow the path. We have this Dharma. But apparently, sometimes people have not awakened. and they also reproduce. So there's a lot of people who are descendants of the unawakened to take care of. But they can learn this practice. They can learn to start relating to each other to wake up to reality. And part of it is to be kind to our ignorance. Another part of it is to be kind to our fear, to be kind to our greed. to be kind to our hatred. And also then, to be kind to every other living being.

[31:39]

In this way, we're working towards waking up. In some of the sutras they say, sort of like, get rid of the ignorance. I'm not too strong on getting rid of it. I'm more like into awakening in the middle of it. maybe that's ignorant of me to say so. What do you think, Ted? Oh yeah? Thank you for ringing the bell. Thank you everybody for your kindness. and patience thank you for this conversation which is ungraspable and inconceivable

[32:39]

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