It's raining. Sometimes harder than this. I have raised my voices during Can you hear me, Bernard? It's a little low. It's a little low? Can you hear me now? Yeah. Yes? Do people like the doors closed or not? Do you want the doors closed or not? No. Here we are. How about one? One door? We don't know. One time after one of those talks, Captain Dennis said to me, are you angry at us?

[01:14]

Because I was yelling. I'd like to return to this comment on the conversation between Nanchuan and Zhaozhou.

[02:18]

The comment was, being questioned by Zhaozhou, Nanchuan just crumbled and melted. unable to give an explanation. So one picture that I get from this comment is that Ngan Chuan and Zhaozhou meet and Ngan Chuan crumbles and melts. In his crumbled and melted state he can't give an explanation. and Jojo has a great awakening experience. That meeting the teacher, and in that meeting the teacher melts, the student wakes up.

[03:28]

So, again, the image I have is bodhisattva isn't somebody who... Well, you know, in one sense a bodhisattva is a teacher, but in another sense a bodhisattva isn't a teacher like the teacher who gives the teaching. But it's somebody who, when they meet people, they dive into the relation, into the non-duality. and not exactly disappear, but more like melt into the relationship. And in that plunging, the teaching comes alive and the student awakens. Some bodhisattvas are eloquent, some are not, but they all dive into the relationship, and that's where the work, that's where the function occurs.

[04:43]

In this case, the person, Jatman Nathuram, is very expressive, but he said to not make an explanation. where Zhaozhou wakes up. And so, yeah, and another monk came to visit Nan Xuan, who we call Dongshan. He's the founder of of our Chinese lineage, he also went to study with Nanchuan and had a good meeting.

[05:50]

And then he went and studied with Guishan, and he wound up studying a pretty long time with Yunyan. After Yun Yan passed away, one day Zongshan was performing a memorial service for Yun Yan. And a monk said to him, a monk in his group said, When you were with Yun Yan, or when you were at Yun Yan's place, Did you receive teachings?" And Doshan said, although I was there with him, I did not receive any teachings.

[06:51]

And the monk said, if you didn't receive any teachings, how come you're doing a moral And Dongshan said, why should I turn my back on him? And the monk said, you first were recognized when you met Nanchuan, the great Nanchuan. And yet you're doing moral service for yin and yang. Who didn't give you any teaching? And Dung Shan said, it's not the virtue of my late teacher and his Buddha Dharma that I esteem most.

[08:04]

is the fact that he never directly indicated anything. He never exhaustively explained. The monk said, well, since you're doing this memorial service for the late master, I wonder if you agree with him or not. And Dongshan said, I half agree and half don't agree. The monk said, why don't you completely agree? And Dongshan said, if I completely agree, I would not be grateful to the late master. When I tell stories, if you don't agree with the way I tell the story, you're welcome to make comments.

[09:28]

But I think that one was not that bad. Anybody want to comment on the way I told the story? The words I used? It was pretty good. I feel close to this tradition of, you know, not being a teacher, of a tradition of teachers who are not teachers and teachers who don't give teachings as the most important point. But we kind of need to set up teachers in order to in order to get over it. Otherwise people think, they probably think, well some teachers came in here, it would probably be good and they would teach us and we would be happy.

[10:38]

But if you have teachers who you really respect, and then have them not teach, you find out that that's really the place where we learn the best. I feel best about that, which may disappoint some people who like to have teachers who teach. In a sense, I'm learning to teach, but I think that's not what's most important. I think what's most important is that when I meet people that I crumble and melt into the relationship and that everybody wakes up. Still, it's about being, you know, still melting and crumbling.

[11:57]

I can still have a pop quiz, right? It's midterm time and some people actually voluntarily ask for a midterm exam or at least a progress report. So I have some questions for you. You're grading on her? No, I'm grading on a sinker. So let's see. Did I say... and that the Zazen I teach is wholeheartedly practicing in the midst of delusion.

[13:03]

Correct. Did I talk about it? Or, yeah, do I imply that this practice, that the practice of sitting would also be to sit wholeheartedly practicing in the midst of delusion? So you say, of course? Who said of course? Morning? Does anybody want to say, of course? I didn't do that last couple of words. What? Does anybody want to say, of course? You actually said that.

[14:12]

What I said? Do I talk about sitting wholeheartedly in a mystical illusion? That was a nice one. How about practicing wholeheartedly without adding anything? Did I talk about that? No, you didn't. I didn't talk about that?

[15:13]

No? Yes. How about practicing wholeheartedly in the midst of delusion without expecting anything? Yes. Can I talk like that sometimes? Yes. Did you hear that, of course? Jeff? I mean, personally, I disagree with you. I don't think you talked about expectations. You don't think I talked about what? Expectations. You don't think I did? Practice wholeheartedly without expectations. Did I say that? Yes, you did. Okay. Now, did I talk about expressing the Buddhist ego? Yes. Now, is expressing the Buddha seal, what do you think? Is expressing the Buddha seal to be wholehearted with no expectation?

[16:19]

I think it might be saying too much. What? I think it might be saying too much. Saying too much to say, expressing the Buddha seal? So, you think that expression of the Buddha seal is adding something? Is that what you're saying? So, I'm sorry about that. Is to say practice wholeheartedly without adding anything, is that saying too much? That's okay? It kind of is? So, if I say practice wholeheartedly without adding anything already, that's a little too much. It's adding something.

[17:21]

It's adding something? Yes. But it's helpful for some of us. Anyway, so... I'm just, you know, I wouldn't actually want to say, practice wholeheartedly without adding anything, because I might move over into the area of directly indicating something, so I don't want to say that. Okay? I do not want to say, practice wholeheartedly without adding anything. And also, now that it's been pointed out, I do not want to say, express the Buddhist seal in the three actions. I don't want to say that either anymore. Okay? Got it? Remember what I don't want to say? Now, I'm not saying this, but if somebody did express the Buddhist seal in their three actions, would it be adding even more to say, to

[18:27]

To say, express the Buddhist seal in your three actions in the midst of self-fulfilling awareness, would that also be adding something? Huh? So I thought I won't say that either anymore. But you'll be saying it at a minute's notice, if you ever have one. If I say, you know, practice wholeheartedly in the midst of delusion without adding anything, although if I say that, that's a problem, I know. And that's why I'm not going to say it anymore. Except to remind you that I'm not going to say it. That's all I'll do from now on. Talking like that has the problem of it's like teaching something.

[19:30]

I'm sorry. So that's why I don't want to do it. It's adding something and it's getting in this confusing situation of teaching. So I don't want to do it. Yeah. Is it adding something if you're shattered? If you say that being shattered? Actually, he said, is it adding something if you say you're shattered? If you are shattered. And you say that. Oh, if you're shattered? And you say blah blah? Yeah. Is it adding anything? Well, when you're shattered, you know that there's been no possibility to add anything. It's when you're not shattered that you think something happens and it gets added on to something else. But you really don't add anything. So then you could say it didn't teach. You could, yeah. But you wouldn't. Did the Buddha?

[20:31]

Apparently, no. Did he say anything? Oh, he said something, yeah. He said something. Nanjuan said something. They both said quite a bit. But they actually did not teach the Dharma. The Buddha didn't teach the Dharma. But he was very talkative, and so was Nanchuan. They met people and talked in this melted place, and while they were talking, people heard the Dharma. But they weren't saying the Dharma. They were saying, No, I'm just doing that. If you want to talk, you've got to come up here. So you did really well on the turn.

[21:35]

And I think that when you sit wholeheartedly, without expectation, although I'm not telling you to do that. When you are that way, I think you are expressing the Buddhist seal in your three actions. When your body's sitting upright, and you're wholeheartedly there without expecting anything, without adding anything, and realizing that nothing can be added, at that time you're expressing the Buddhist seal in your sitting posture. I would say that. Wouldn't I? Isn't that what I'd say? You would have said that. Pardon? You would have said that. I would have said that? No. But you won't.

[22:37]

No, I'm saying that, but, you know, I don't want to. I'm just saying if I had, you know, would I have, could I have, does that seem like something I would say? How you doing, David? You look stressed. I did ask a question. What? It just popped out of my head though. Yeah, the question you lost it, that's why you were stressed? You thought it was a good one? that you thought some of what this was saying was directly indicating something? Could you speak up? When you said certain things, like, could you come up here? Could you please come up here, David? Hey, David, you came up. There you are. So what were you saying about flattery?

[23:39]

That was in my mind. Something about why you don't want to say certain things because you think it's directly indicating something. I'm not so sure what it's directly indicating. It seems like helpful advice. Oh, I see. Why can't you express? Why are you saying that you don't want to say these things that you're saying? I actually, I take it back. I do want to say the things I'm saying. I'm just saying I'm not going to say them. That's all. Because I most want to not give any teachings and just have you find the teachings. That's what I most want. Because I don't give you the teachings. I'm just interacting with you in hopes that you will hear the teachings. the true teacher, while we're interacting, can you find a chance to do it?

[24:43]

I don't know. I don't think so. Obviously. But, you know, at least I didn't give you the teachers. So there's a good chance that you'll hear the teachers. How about now? A little more. A little more, yeah. So you want to say something? Come on. Who else? Who else wants to try? Who else? Yeah, come on. Come on. You can take the shortcut. You can take the shortcut too, Jita.

[25:46]

Did you say the whole universe in the ten directions is the speech of the meditator? Yeah, pretty much. I mean, that's not the speech of the conversation we're having. This conversation is the whole universe in ten directions. I would say that, yeah. I believe you. You're saying it. You're teaching it. You're giving us those words. Somewhere that came from in the night. Yeah. It came up out of the night through you. In the discerning to me. Through you too. Through me? Through you, too. You put the words together. Or you received them and delivered them or something.

[26:50]

Yeah, right. So did you. I heard them. You received them and delivered them. Okay. Okay? Okay. Your whole body is the whole universe as your whole body. My whole body is the universe as my whole body. Our conversation is the whole universe You said that the pure mind seal, the Buddha mind seal, is something that we experience in rare moments when we get glimpses of it.

[28:36]

Is repentance something like that too? Is not repentance something that we see and feel deeply in rare moments? I think, you know, it depends on how deep you're saying, but I think I see people repenting not so rarely, at least at Hasahara. I see people repenting quite a bit, actually. People go to churches and confess and repent, and they go to the Ganges to confess and repent and wash away their sins. So, I'm wondering if this act of confessing and repenting, will that also become a grasping? Could it become a grasping? Yes. However, if you do it together with the Buddhas, it may melt away the grasping in that practice.

[29:37]

Is the mind not very tricky? The mind is very tricky. But it can hold on. That it can hold on and continue to make stories, creating reasons. Yes, creating reasons, making stories. Convincing reasons. Convincing reasons. To hold on to old habits which die hard. Yes, right. So, I mean, is that real repentance or is repentance something that comes up in rare moments when you really want to repent and confess? I actually don't know how rare it is that it's a real repentance, but I'm just offering with some, I don't know, with some opinion that, which I'm not really terribly strongly holding to, that when we do this confession and repentance

[30:43]

we are transformed by that activity. And we can look in our own heart and see if we really are saying what we feel we did that we don't feel so good about, and whether we actually don't feel good about it, and watch and see if that actually transforms us overly. I think it does. But again, you're right, I may be just dreaming that it does. I may be just dreaming that the people who I've seen confess and repent are evolving positively. But that's what I see. I see a positive evolution in those who practice this practice it so skillfully, it seems like the more they practice it with others and give feedback, the more skillfully they become at confession and repentance, and that seems to cause positive evolution in their conduct.

[31:51]

That's what I've seen. And then I say, try it yourself. And maybe you have, and maybe you've noticed, I have a tricky mind. Okay? That's something else to confess, a tricky mind. And sometimes you feel good about your tricky mind, and sometimes you feel, this way of being tricky I don't feel good about. And that causes a reprogramming of the whole organism, I would propose. I'm a terrible driver. And you're a Tussauds driver?

[32:55]

Yes. But there's all kinds of driving, right? There's driving 101 and somewhere between Gilroy in San Jose noticed that, gee, I just drove 20 miles, and I have absolutely no clue where those 20 miles went. Sometimes, you know, you're driving between, say, Mill Valley and Green Gulch, and there's these hairpin turns. Now, one of them, this is a little tiny thing. I want you to come to a point There is driving, and then there's awareness of driving. Yes. There's the way, and then there's awareness of the way.

[33:57]

Right. When I'm sitting in Sashin, somewhere around day three or so, it starts to become apparent that the way is always there. It could never be anywhere else. You become aware that you're sitting sashim. Yeah, basically. It's sashim. It's sashim. But why does it take all of that? Why can't I carry that awareness out when I'm driving down the road? The attention and Sometimes it's not so helpful to be thinking too much about the way. And there's a very sharp turn coming up ahead.

[35:01]

The idea of the way. The grandmother mind is not fully enough developed to develop that more. Now, you realize that you don't have the space to forget for a moment your practice, because your grandchildren will get hurt if you forget your practice. You need to feel that way about driving your car. and something you love very much will be hurt. You have precious cargo that you're carrying in the car which is not just the people but the practice.

[36:04]

And you need to have that feeling like you are caring for the Buddha and you cannot afford to forget even for one moment. Just like So that has to be seeking to you more. When it does, you will be able to drive and be there. And of course it will be very nice because you will see it's very beautiful between Gilroy and wherever. There's lots of stuff happening, you have a light there. There's great benefits of taking care of the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha. But you need to really feel like you can't afford to take a break. Or rather, you know, they need you to take care of them all the time, those triple jewels. It has to sink in.

[37:06]

When it does, you won't forget. Before that, your grandmother mind is not fully developed enough. There isn't any one particular thing you can do to bring... way to focus that development? Techniques? Again, um... He said that... Yeah, there's gazillions of techniques, but basically it's confession and repentance that you notice, I hadn't been paying attention for whatever. And I don't feel that good about it. So now I'm gonna, like, pay attention. And then maybe you do it for a while, and then maybe you feel like, this is the way I want to drive. And then if you check out again and don't take care of the practice again, and you notice it, confess and repent again.

[38:10]

And over time, you will become unforgiving of the Triple Jewel, and you will remember Even Great Hakuin said he was 65 before he was mindful all day long. Pardon? Hakuin, 65. So if a great Zen master has to get that old before he's mindful all day long, it probably will take a long time too. In the meantime, be generous and patient and energetic in applying yourself to taking care of the Buddha mind all day long. And if you forget, practice confession and repentance in a way that you will continue to practice confession and repentance.

[39:13]

It should be actually somewhat encouraging and joyful to know that your that you're doing pure and simple color of true practice. The true body of faith, the pure mind of faith is to do this practice. Great Zen masters have done it. You're invited to join. What time does the kitchen move? Quarter past? It's quarter past. Does that look good today? Okay?

[40:22]

You can come first. You haven't come up yet. Is that okay? He goes ahead of you since he hasn't come up? So you said you don't want to teach. Is that correct? I don't know if I said that. I think I said I don't want to be a teacher. You don't want to be a teacher. Well, the thing that came to mind was I don't want to learn anything. And yet there's this question, what is the teaching that cannot be taught?

[41:29]

I think it can be taught, it's just not taught by one person. It is taught in our relationship. That's what teaches it. And we can learn in our relationship. But the teacher sort of has to So is the teacher not there? Almost. Want to turn the heat up a little bit? I'm not sure I know where the switch is. I appreciate you expressing yourself today. It's a good morning.

[42:44]

And thanks for letting somebody who hasn't spoken yet come on in. Speak up. I'll use your mic. Yeah, speak up. Thank you for inviting the person who hasn't spoken before to come on. Speak up. Yeah. I said, thank you for inviting the person who hasn't spoken before to come ahead. You're welcome. Anything you want to express beyond that? Yes, it's about that. Some time ago you asked me something and then I looked inside and I said back to you, go softer. And I carefully listened to that message myself to understand what was it expressing.

[43:54]

And then I said, maybe not with gloves, but just there was something about that. And yesterday I realized that when you are saying things that feedback you received from people about how you were giving lectures or how you were giving Dharma talks and people's resistance to forms and ceremonies, I understood that for me and for many people, perhaps it's difficult to see that you are vulnerable because you occupy the position of authority. And we might make the mistake that you also occupy the position of our power. I occupy the position of your power? Yes, or position of power, therefore I don't have it, or somebody or people don't have it, so we have to come to you to get something.

[45:05]

And today I understand that you are just as vulnerable and you have your special things you're vulnerable to because you occupy that seat. And I empathize with you, sympathize. And the message I heard for myself was, and I think maybe both of us, that message carried for both of us, that sometimes we are well-meaning, or I know that I'm well-meaning, but I go, my message is true, has too much strength and velocity and just doesn't really meet what's needed first. And there are some people I've done this kind of non-meeting to as they're sitting in this room. And I'm sad about that.

[46:06]

Did you use the word softer with me? I think what I said was the closest word for now was softer. How have I been softer? From your point of view? Today, yes. Yes, I think so. But what rose that question strongly is I witnessed your interactions yesterday with a couple of the people who came up and I just left with this sense of sadness that there was not really full meeting. You felt there was not full meeting in a couple of cases? Yes. I looked at Carol and I just looked and it was the most beautiful woman I've ever seen there and you're dancing with her. That was that. But when I saw you with Max, I felt real sadness.

[47:16]

You did? Yes, because there was this very sharp... I think both men who came up, Andy, your shogun, and Max, they had a question, but I felt that there was actually something under that they were really coming to find out for themselves. And I saw you with Max kind of entering this dual words, and with Shogun also more like an explanation. I got into an explanation. I felt so. It was pretty good. That's why I wanted to stop, because I felt like you were just getting more and more explanation. Yes. With Max, I really had a good time, actually.

[48:18]

How was it for you, Max? It was fun. It was fun, yeah. It was fun. Yeah, it seemed like we were, yeah. So maybe we didn't meet perfectly, but we still were having a pretty good time. I saw that. I guess males do that. No disrespect to the males. Just males are different like that. That's what I meant. With full appreciation for my experience. I'm sorry it hurts you or someone. I really mean that. Well, I think... Nice going. Anything else you'd like to say about females?

[49:20]

While you're out here? Well, why do you think I could say something about females? I really don't want to. Say them softly. Wow. Did you hear that? She was very something. That's how females are sometimes. I hope that we've Both of us keep that in mind and go softer without putting gloves and hold anything back so that people who are shy and who are not coming up know that they have something to contribute and it's valued and it's waited for to be expressed.

[50:42]

And if they're not here, they're still contributing. And it's your body. Thank you. Thank you. I don't know. Confession? Confession? I have a confession. Could you sing it from the... sing it at your top tone? Sing? Yeah, sing it. Please. I feel... That was... I can't sing. I really can't. I was sitting yesterday.

[52:00]

I was sitting yesterday. And I really saw how much self-preoccupation is there. How much self-preoccupation is there. Can you hear the song? I hear you singing. I hear the music in your voice. Can you hear it? I don't hear the music. It's right there. Can you hear it? No? Okay, well. You're going to meet with the song. I haven't been speaking much the last six or seven days. So you saw it? Yeah, I just saw it. It was actually painful.

[53:03]

Yeah, actually painful, yes. Could you say it louder? If you don't want to say it louder. I actually saw it and it actually was Jeff? Yes. And so I just wanted to confess that and repent that because I do feel... Feeling the pain. Feeling the pain as you're repenting. One time, you know, I told this story, it's a real long one, but I just want to say that one time I got really concerned at the old Zen Do during my first practice period when we had very, almost no solid food. And one day there was soup that had croutons in it. And I got very concerned about me getting some croutons.

[54:05]

And after the meal was over, I cried. Not because I didn't get any croutons, which I didn't. But because I came to a Zen monastery to learn how to be a great bodhisattva. And what I was concerned about was croutons. For me. I wasn't trying to make sure everybody else got croutons, which they did. I was concerned that I got some croutons, and that I was to see that I was that petty, and that my attention could be drawn strongly into croutons. Croutons. That was really... That was great that I saw that.

[55:09]

And I repented. And I cried to see that that's where I was at. Yanis? Nanchuan says there is nothing in particular I will point to. Buddha says, I will point to the Eightfold Path. Is there a conflict there or not? I don't think so. I think the Buddha, like I said, he taught Eightfold Path, that kind of stuff. But that's not the Dharma. That's not the actual Dharma. He's teaching the Eightfold Path. And while he's teaching the Eightfold Path, the person he's talking to hears the Dharma. Caleb.

[56:28]

Yes. My bones are singing. Your bones are singing? Singing. Singing? Singing. Yeah. Can you hear them? Yes. What do they sound like? You. Is that all? That's all. Want to add something? Yeah.

[56:50]

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