I referred to it, a teaching by the Buddha earlier today, I think, and it's called Fear and Dread, Fear and Dread Scripture. And it's the fourth scripture in the Middle East Sangs. Want to hear a little bit about it? Yes. Thus I have heard at one time, The Blessed One was living at Savatthi in the Jeta Grove in the Pindicus Park. And then the Brahmin, Janasone, one of Buddha's only Italian disciples, went to the Blessed One and exchanged greetings with him.

[01:02]

When this courteous and amicable talk was finished, he sat down to one side and said, Master Gautama, when clansmen have gone forth from the home life into homelessness out of faith in Master Gautama, do they have Master Gautama as their leader, their helper, and their guide? And do these people follow the example of Master Gautama?" And the Buddha said, That is so, Brahman. That is so. When people have gone forth to study with me, they have me for their leader, their helper. And those people follow my example. And Senor Giannasoli says, but Master Gautama, remote jungle thickets are hard to endure, and seclusion is hard to practice, and it is hard to enjoy solitude in those jungle thickets.

[02:29]

One would think the jungles must rob the monk of his mind if he has no concentration. That is so, said the Buddha. That is so. The remote jungle thickets in the forest are hard to endure. Seclusion is hard to practice and hard to enjoy solitude. One has no concentration. Before my enlightenment, while I was still only an unenlightened bodhisattva, I too was thus. When I went into the forest, you know, it was hard for me to endure. It was hard for me to enjoy solitude because I was afraid. I lacked in concentration. So, whenever a recluse or a Brahmin who's unpurified in bodily conduct resort to the remote jungles, thickets, the resting places in the forest, then owing to the defect in their unpurified body and mind, those good recluses and Brahmins evoke dread.

[04:01]

But I resort to the remote jungle thickets in the forest. But I do not resort to the jungle thickets in the remote forest with unpurified . I am purified in bodily conduct. I resort to the remote jungle thickets in the forest as one of the noble ones whose body and conduct is purified, seeing myself, this purity of body and mind, solace and joy dwelling in the jungle thickets of the forest. So, I don't know if this is archaic language, but basically, could you follow? Is that clear?

[05:06]

All right. So then the Buddha goes back and says, yeah, well, before body and mind, when I was out there, I got scared. So then I thought, well, maybe if I would just practice this way that I told you before, like if I'm walking and I get scared, I'll just keep walking until I'm not afraid anymore. And if I'm sitting and fear arises, the fear and dread arises, and it also says unwholesome fear and dread, as though there is a kind of wholesome fear and dread. In a sense, there's a wholesome fear and dread in the sense of you dread that someone would be hurt or harmed. But if you're walking in the jungle, it's not good to get frightened of the wild animals and the dangerous

[06:19]

So anyway, when this unwholesome fear and dread arose, he practiced this way of just continuing in whatever he was doing until the fear and dread melted away. This is an experience of a purified body and mind. a mind of concentration, where you just stay present with what's happening in such a way that you're not ahead of yourself or behind yourself. There's danger all around, but you're concentrated and fearless. And then, you find solace in the jungle. You find solace in the world, in the dangerous world.

[07:22]

The world is still dangerous, but because of its practice, you find it a place of ease, without changing it, other than your way of being. The Hundred Sutras And then at the end, the Buddha says, now, Senor Giannisoli, you might think, perhaps the recluse is not free from lust and hate and delusion, because even today, even today, which is why he still resorts to the mountain thickets and resting places in the forest. Buddha says, you might think this. In other words, why is he thinking of the forest if he's free?

[08:27]

Buddha imagines that someone might think that. He said, but you shouldn't think this. It is because of two reasons that I still go into the forest. There is forest. I see it as a pleasant abiding place here and now. and I had compassion for future generations." But he goes in the forest no longer because he has to go in there to test his concentration. He goes in the forest because he actually finds it really joyful to be in this spectacular situation of all this danger. It's not just the danger, it's the trees and the animals. In the earth, in the forest, that's really enjoyable when you're afraid. As you may know. It's wonderful when you're not afraid, but when suddenly you become afraid, it's like hell. Nature is hell when you're afraid of it.

[09:32]

Let me get back to the city and open my apartment. I want to go home. Okay, let's go home. I don't have to pray it. So finally, Sr. Govosoli says, Indeed, it is because Master Gautama is an accomplished one, a fully enlightened one, that he has compassion for future generations. magnificent Master Gautama. Magnificent Gautama. Master Gautama has made the Dhamma clear in many ways. And though, as though he were turning, as though he were turning upright what had been thrown, revealing what was hidden, showing the way

[10:44]

to one who is lost, holding up a lamp in the dark for those with eyesight to see forms. I go to Master Gautama for refuge and to the Dharma for refuge, the Sangha for refuge. And today, let Master Gautama remember me as a lay follower who has gone forth to him in refuge for life. So he said, come with me and enter into the place where you realize the world dangerous. And then find a way to be there in this dangerous world. Reappear. And then realize how wonderful it is to be in this world of impermanence. And show other people the way. So this is early Buddhist teaching about that.

[11:47]

Is there anything you'd like to express? A desire to live like that. What? A desire to live in total trust and freedom. But I'm still aware of how my fears keep me Enclosed. You're so aware? I can see half the but. Half the but is, but because of my fears I'm enclosed. On the other hand, take away the but and say, I'm so aware of my fears. Or rather, another one is, I express a desire to live that way and I'm aware of my fears. And my awareness and my fears, I hope, will help me live that way. I'd also like to be your grandfather.

[13:01]

I just love the stories. You'd like to be my grandson? You will be soon. And I'll be your grandson, too. And your granddaughter. Your granddaughter. Want to hear another one? This is a recent one. So he moved to L.A. with his mom. So I went down to L.A. with my wife, who's his grandmother, to the zoo, L.A. Zoo. That was fun driving to the zoo because we got on, you know, we went on the L.A. freeways and we, you know, like got on and we drove down the freeway and got off the freeway and got to the zoo rather than going on the freeway and sitting still. If it happens to you, listen, you go on the freeway and you just sit there with 20 million other people.

[14:07]

But we got on the freeway and drove down the freeway and got off. went to the zoo, and things were going very nicely, having lots of fun. And he decides to take little snacks with him. So he pulls out his snack kit. He saw it as orange, and I say, do you want me to help you peel it? He said, no. And so he peels it and gets all the peels off of it. But still the stuck on it, and so it's hard to get apart. So he couldn't figure out how to pull the different sections apart. So I said to him, want me to help you? And he said, yeah. He gave it to me. And then I reached up and bit the end off by holding the things together. And he immediately flew into an intense rage. First of all, I think he felt really hurt that I bit his arm, that I put my mouth on his arm.

[15:13]

He found that extremely obnoxious. See what I mean? People find me obnoxious. Maybe you don't want to be my grandson after all. So anyway, he says, he says, you know, you put your mouth on my orange. I hate you. You keep flying and screaming and hollering and crying and just about to hit me. But his grandmother restrained him. Isn't that funny? But he does not like me to laugh when he hits me. This is really serious. A terrible thing has just happened. I can't say that either. I've got to shut up.

[16:13]

I'm being punished. I have to accept my punishment. Anyway, he was really upset with me. And he was going to throw the whole orange away. And his grandmother says, if you throw the orange away, you're not getting any other stuff, any other snacks. So he ate the orange. So he ate the orange. And he was mad at me. And he kept being mad at me for quite a while. But then I feel this little hand reaching up to my hand. starting to reconnect. And then pretty soon he lets me, like, give him rides on my shoulder again. Can I have a ride? So it's up on my shoulder. That's the way he likes to go around. He's getting heavier, but I'm keeping up. How big will he be? So anyway, so we're kind of like back to normal again.

[17:19]

And he says, I don't know what we're doing, but suddenly he turns to me and he said, if a Buddhist master saw what a terrible job you're doing, he would fire you. I don't think I laughed. But my wife said that when he said that to me, she saw me stop walking, walking along. I stopped walking. And she said, I knew what you were doing when you stopped walking. Do you know what I was doing? Spinning. Huh? Spinning. I was spinning. But what was I doing while I was spinning? Deliberating. Huh? Deliberating. I was literally not aware of what he said, but I thought, this is a good story.

[18:23]

You've got to remember this, you know? That was really getting into my memory. Isn't that a good story? Yeah. And the next day I asked him what I was doing that was so terrible. And he said, you were talking too much. And then I asked him again, you know, that's what his grandmother remembered. But then I asked him again later, and he said, I don't remember what you did. But anyway, that's what he said. Don't end up being nice, being able to talk to me like that. Before you didn't want to say anything, do you want to say anything now? Express anything now? Yeah. Okay.

[19:23]

Going back to what you were talking about earlier, can I change the subject a bit? You express yourself, man, whatever. Are you talking about how the universe is supporting us in what we're doing? Yeah. I was curious, and I would certainly include everyone in that, and so I was curious if you could explain a little bit how when people, when it certainly feels like people aren't supporting us, it might feel like they're not being encouraging at all. Not being what? How they're not being encouraging at all to what we might be doing, how that We might relate to that, maybe not immediately, but in some distances. Yeah. Well, let's see.

[20:28]

If you're about to do something unskillful and someone says, you know, I don't agree with you, please don't do that, you might feel like they're not supporting you. Later you might see, oh God, they kept me from making that, do that really unskillful thing. Did you hear the story that I told you about my student who was going to go to Switzerland? Yeah, so he, when I first said it to him, he got kind of irritated with me. But then he thought it over, and he realized that I was being supportive. And, like, also... George Bush, you know him? So he was running for president a while ago, and the way I supported him was to vote for John Kerry. I felt like it would be good for him to not be president anymore. I think that was best for him. I wanted to support him to do what I thought would be better if he wasn't president.

[21:29]

So I supported him by voting for somebody else. He might not have, if he knew that, he might not have thought that was support, but that's the way I wanted to support him. try to get in the place of supporting him and John Kerry. I want to support both of them. But I think you can support somebody by asking them to retire from some positions. You can really feel that that's a good thing for them to do and a good thing for other people, that you support them and ask them to do. And I often, you know, sometimes I think, you know, if I just travel and teach around, people don't give me much of a hard time. died about a year ago. She'd actually died the day after the election. But before that, when I used to go back to Minnesota to visit her, she says, your visits are so short.

[22:35]

But one good thing about him is you don't stay long enough to see him. But anyway, if I travel, you know, and just you don't have to see much of me, I'm pretty interesting for a few hours maybe, some people. But if I don't, you know, you start giving me a hard time. So sometimes I think, well, maybe I should just travel. Or they also say, you're never a wise man in your own house, so go to somebody else's house. But I don't want to do that. I don't want to go places where I'm just popular, so I stay at Zen Center where everybody hates me. Because I realize, you know, people who live in, the leaders of cults get really out of touch.

[23:39]

So it's good to be in a place where people give you a hard time and don't just go along with everything you do and kind of see how stupid you are and tell you. But even if they don't tell you, they still support you. It's just, you know, why doesn't everybody give me negative feedback? People support you by giving you positive feedback and sometimes by negative feedback, but they're always supporting you. And we need to wake up to that So I'm telling you how I see it as supportive, but it's just like a hint. It's like actually waking up to reality. So the reality where people aren't supporting you, I'm not saying that's not reality. I'm just saying there's another reality. And Buddhas wake up to this other reality. They actually see everybody supporting them. And they see everybody else supporting other people. They support and they see everybody supported.

[24:42]

That's their vision. But I think that the places where you can see, at that time I didn't see that they were trying to help me and later I saw it was the kindest thing anybody ever did for me. There's many stories like that. But you can't tell enough stories to actually get to the totality of it. We have to, like, open our mind to another dimension that's not really graspable. That's why it's, like, open the mind rather than... You can't really... doing this for you. But you can get hints of it. And I sometimes say to people who are being mean to me, I sometimes say to them, you're being mean to me. And they say, yeah, that's right. But you're thriving. And it's true.

[25:44]

I thrive in the jungle thickets. And I don't complain too much. Even when I said, you're being mean to me, I'm not really complaining, I'm just kidding, you know. And I'm really happy that now, when someone calls me a teacher, I laugh, rather than go, what? How dare you? I think 30 years ago, if somebody told me I was a lousy teacher, I probably would have got offended rather than laughing. But I was attracted to stories of teachers who are called lousy teachers and go, hmm. And teachers who are called great teachers and go, hmm. That's what attracted me. That way I'm not getting pushed around by insults and praise. But see, praise is support. Love is support. Hate is support. It's all really love.

[26:47]

Would you like to say something? Express something? I was looking at her, but you want to? Go ahead. Well, sure. Okay, you're invited. I'll pass it to you. You expressed something already. Can I sing you a song? Yes, you may. She sings me a song. Would you sing them a song too? Perhaps in a moment. Perhaps in a moment? Yeah, do it in a moment. If you're happy and you know it, clap your hands. If you're happy and you know it, clap your hands. If you're happy and you know it, then your face will surely show it. If you're happy and you know it, clap your hands. Now, would you join me? Yeah. Okay. We'll do pat your head. Okay.

[27:54]

If you're happy and you know it, pat your head. If you're happy and you know it, pat your head. If you're happy and you know it, your head. Let me show it. If you're happy and you know it, pat your head. Okay, now for everybody. It's your pit. If you're happy and you know it, it's your pit. If you're happy and you know it, it's your pit. If you're happy and you know it, then your face will certainly show it. If you're happy and you know it, it should be. Which actually leads me to a point that I wanted to share with you. So this is a Norwegian poet named Olakau. I'm happy to put it up. I have not, but I'm an allergic poet.

[28:57]

He had a poem called To the Point. And I don't know it perfectly, but I'll sort of paraphrase it a bit. Year in and year out, we spend our lives studying over books, gaining more knowledge than nine wives could require. When it comes to the point, So little is needed. In Egypt, the Gaelic knowledge wears the head of an ape. Here's a poem by Pablo Neruda called Fear. Everybody's after me to jump through hoops, whoop it up, play football, rush around, even go swimming and flying.

[30:04]

Fair enough. Everybody's after me to take it easy. They all make doctor's appointments for me. I mean, in a quizzical way. What is going on? Everybody's after me to take a trip, to come in, to leave, not to travel, to die, and alternatively not to die. Not matter. Everybody's spotting oddnesses in my innards. suddenly shocked by radio-awful diagrams. Agree. Everybody's picking at my poetry with their relentless knives and forks, trying, no doubt, to find a fly.

[31:13]

I'm afraid. I'm afraid of the whole world. afraid of cold water, afraid of death. I am, as all mortals are, unable to be patient. Would you like to say something, express something? My mind keeps going back to the idea that push you away and go in that openness with the only place that good can come from. And it seems to me it takes an act of faith to do that. And I'm thinking about the difference between faith and experience that

[32:18]

that that can occur, to be able to practice it in order to experience it. That's becoming. Another way to understand faith is not so much what you exactly, I don't know what, But anyway, it's kind of like what's most important to you is your faith. And if what's most important to you is good, if your faith is, in some sense, that that's most important, then does it make sense to you that holding on to something you think is good does that make sense to you?

[33:23]

It does make sense to you? Does it make sense to you that that helps the good live? And again, if you think of something good, what is something good that helps it thrive? Is abandoning it and ignoring it going to help it? Not necessarily. And smothering it? So again, parents have trouble. Like Suzuki Roshi said, you know, if you're taking care of a cow, the worst thing is to ignore it. That's turning away, pushing it away. Next best or next worst is to tie it up, to protect it. But the best way is to give it a big field and just be with it in the big field.

[34:30]

The same with children, you know. But again, parents are afraid, so they think they have to control them. But To think you can control your children is, well, just to make it simple, it's disrespectful. I could say it's extremely disrespectful, but anyway, it's disrespectful. And children do not feel when their parents treat them as though they could be controlled. They don't feel respected. Even babies. Parents are afraid of their babies getting hurt, and out of the fear, they do this disrespectful thing. When you're afraid, you don't see how wonderful your children are.

[35:33]

You're blinded by fear. So then you think, oh, I love this thing more than anything. But love is not the same as respect. I remember, again, when I first went to Zen Center, there was a wedding not too long after I got there. And Suzuki Roshi said in the wedding, Love's important, but respect's even more important, or equally important. You can love people. I mean, you can feel love to them, you can have great affection, really appreciate them, but not respect them, which means you appreciate what you think they are. But you don't look again to see what they might be. So I think parents who just totally adore their children don't necessarily respect them. Or they adore their children and they do respect them, but when they get afraid, they lose respect.

[36:37]

Because respect is a vision thing. looking more deeply. So I think a lot of parents love their children and disrespect them and try to control them because they're afraid of them being hurt, rather than be with the child and teach the child fearlessness. Be fearlessly with the child and protect them without being afraid. Again, if you have a bodyguard, which kind of bodyguard would you like? A frightened bodyguard or a fearless bodyguard? Would you like somebody who's like, not only not afraid and can throw themselves in harm's way to protect you, but not even afraid that you're going to get hurt? Which kind of bodyguard would you want? You'd want a fearless one, wouldn't you? I don't know, maybe you wouldn't. Maybe you'd like a frightened one so you could feel fearless. But anyway... Like, you know, surgeons sometimes, when it comes time to their child needs an operation in their specialty, they usually will not do it themselves because they feel that they'll lose their... that they'll become afraid.

[37:55]

And when they're afraid, they won't be as skillful. So the good surgeon is really committed to help this person, but they're not afraid. They're just going to, like, do their best. and they know it's dangerous, and they're open to the danger, and they're trained about the danger, but they know that what everybody wants them to do is operate and just be totally present and not afraid and actually enjoy the operation. And they do. And, of course, if it doesn't go well, they feel terrible. But while they're doing the operation, if they are, I should say, Wonderful if they're in that space where they're not afraid. It's beautiful work, and they love it. And they have to be unafraid in order to do their best work. Same with an artist, I mean, a musician or a singer.

[38:57]

There's tremendous danger that complex performances, that things, you know, that they'll get distracted and that the thing won't go well, that the piece will be destroyed. They have to find that place where they're... So, anyway, try it. Try it with your children. See if you can find that place where, of course your children are always in danger. Whatever ages, when they're tiny, when they're tiny, you know, they're in danger. When they're teenagers, they're in danger. And they're tiny, they don't, when they're tiny. My grandson, you know, going downstairs, he's a big boy now, right? When he was, like, just learning to walk, before he could walk, he was going downstairs, but he couldn't, like, you know, couldn't go downstairs like this, right?

[40:03]

He had to go downstairs backwards, right? Couldn't go downstairs backwards, like this. So he learned that, and he was okay with not going down like this. He was afraid to go down the stairs. He couldn't have that instinctive thing at that distance, you know, when they get to the edge, they see that differential of density of the material. So he was naturally afraid of that thing, but he wanted to go down the stairs. This is when he could walk, actually. This is when he could walk. So we were at this place one time and there was a differential like this. It was like one inch. Yes, Chara?

[41:10]

Kaya. Kaya. I was just wondering about, you were just talking about like musicians and artists, you know, using the right side of the brain or whatever. And, you know, as a kid, and even as a kid, you lose yourself in those things if you're in them or whatever. So are you saying that this kind of practice of thinking is sort of like switching the sides of the brain? Do you stay in that state or? Is it like switching sides of the brain? Well, you know, you kind of have like, When your brain loses it or pain in, you know, you lose yourself over time and you lose things like that. You know, I wasn't actually thinking that, but that may be part of what you're doing. Maybe fear is kind of a left brain thing to a great extent, where you're making all these judgments and calculations, you know, and more on the right side, maybe we don't do that so much. So it might be that we're actually shipping part of our brain to find the fearlessness. So maybe on the right side of the brain you learn how to do things, certain kinds of things, and then when you go into a dangerous situation, so that you don't become frightened, you have to shift to the left brain and then use the right brain skill, shift to the fearless, so on the left side you learned your skills which are working for you.

[42:26]

It might be something like that. In your life have you ever noticed anything like that? to where before your practice and all the things that you've gone through, have you noticed a difference in your thinking and your environment? One thing that just came to my mind was that One time I copied a Picasso drawing upside down and wrote it with my left hand. And it was really a very nice drawing. It was not better than Picasso, but it was actually a drawing of Stravinsky. Picasso did this drawing of Stravinsky. And so I turned the drawing of Stravinsky upside down and copied it with my left hand. It was a very nice drawing. So in that case, I just experienced that I was getting away from the side of the brain which is trying to do things right and avoid doing them wrong.

[43:32]

But if you're doing a drawing and you're trying to avoid doing an ugly drawing, you're not open to doing it. well, that's going to interfere with you doing your work, right? If you're sort of like stuck leaning towards doing a beautiful drawing and avoiding doing them and leaning away from doing a bad drawing, but if you find another route, like use a different hand, you don't expect to do things well with the other hand. You're up for like doing a lousy drawing. You don't want to, but it might happen and you're going to take a chance now and use your unskillful hand to do this drawing. And you're going to turn the picture upside down and they're going to copy. So also, like, you let your eyes be, you know, and then, which is kind of maybe pretty good. That came to mind. But the main thing I feel is that I'm more willing to be myself and less afraid.

[44:34]

I'm less afraid. I have a question about like a daily meditation practice and how meditation fits into the kinds of things you're talking about. Well, that was the question. I had to question it. You had a question? Ask that question. Well, the question was just how to do it. It's almost implicit that by meditating more we'll be better at this. Would you agree with that? Well, this is a meditation. I'm taught this is a meditation. And so if you do meditation, the better you get at it, yes. But other kinds of... I think of meditation as counting the breath and sitting still and not about thinking about fear or thinking about... So let's say you're doing that practice of counting your breath, okay?

[45:43]

Most people, when they do that for a while, they start to become more aware of their fear and their pain. It isn't the instruction to sit down and fear. That's not usually what we say to people. We say, you know, sit and pay attention to your posture and your breathing. Okay? But when you do that, when you slow down and do that, when you're open to being there in that way of just like... Okay, you've got a body and breathing. You're not running around in circles. And you're not maybe having, you know, real elaborate arguments with people. And you're not planning tomorrow's menu too much. Okay? When you're in that kind of space, when you quiet down and slow down, you tend to open up. And when you open up, you tend to become more aware that you're afraid.

[46:50]

You discover that you're afraid and you discover that you have grief and fear and sadness. Or maybe that you hate certain people that you don't usually notice that you do, and you see how bad you feel hating them. You even start to notice how you think you're better than the other people who are sitting around you. Or worse, and you hate them for being better than you, according to your opinion. Except when you slow down. But isn't it, we say, go and notice how you hate everybody and go. But when you slow down, you start to notice stuff that you can't notice when you're agitated. People are agitated and they notice they're agitated. They're surprised by how agitated they are. So they go to a zendo to be calm and they find out they're agitated. They go to a meditation hall to calm down and they say, oh my God, I'm really upset.

[47:58]

But then if you sit there and look at the upset, you really become calm. So you might not necessarily think you're calm, or you might think you're calm, and when you sit still, you find out maybe that you're not so calm, and when you sit with that, you become calm, really calm. Does that make sense? Do you still have a question about that? Thank you. And also, when you do that and you become calm, your body becomes more flexible and soft and buoyant and alert. That also then helps you that when you start to notice these fears and so on, that you can then relate to them in a relaxed, flexible way. So part of meditation Giving up thinking.

[49:05]

When you give up thinking, or give up discursive thinking, give up wandering thoughts, give up running around in your mind. That's part of meditation. And then you get calm. When you're calm, then you can look at your thinking. And your thinking is where your fear comes from. except for the fear that happens when you stand at the edge of a cliff. That doesn't come from thinking. That's more like built-in. But you're thinking about, you know, what are they going to do to me to make me fired? Are they going to light me? If I do this, what will happen? That kind of thinking. If you're calm, you can look at that kind of thinking and you can say, oh, that's the kind of thinking that makes me afraid. Oh, when I think of the future, I get afraid. When I come back to the present, the fear drops away. So if I'm in the forest and I think about what's going to happen next, I become afraid. But if I just stop thinking about it and just keep sitting, sitting, sitting, breathing, breathing, breathing, or walking, walking, walking, I start to calm down.

[50:19]

And then I can look at and think about that. and notice, oh, if I think about something over there and some other time, I become afraid. If I come back here, I calm down. So you'll notice that in the present, the fear drops away. In the presence, the fear drops away. And then there's still maybe some anxiety, and then you can work on that. And that's the insight type of meditation, where you're from a calm place, you look at your thinking, You study the fear. You see how it works. You see what its source is. You open to it and then you also learn to open to what it comes from without thinking about it. Just open to it and look at the danger. But the calming part is a great asset in order

[51:19]

The calming isn't specifically to look at the fear. But again, if you calm down, you can see that you're in a dangerous situation. But if you're not calm, you know, somebody says, you want me to show you something dangerous? You say, no, I've got enough problems. Somebody looks really frightened. You don't say, let's go get that frightened person to do this dangerous thing. Or let's go tell that frightened person about some big danger. You don't think of doing that, right? And the person doesn't want to hear about it either. Make sense? But if you're really calm, people bring you dangerous situations. They want to talk to a calm person about a dangerous situation. And also the calm person also sees the danger. They can tolerate opening their eyes to the danger because they're calm. You can see, that's dangerous. That's really dangerous, and here's how it's dangerous. But you don't have to be afraid of it.

[52:22]

And if you are afraid of it, it's hard to see it. Is that okay? Does it make sense? I was thinking about, why would I want someone to bring me to dangerous situations? From what you said earlier, understand that we want to see the danger around us so that we are aware of it, not pretend it's not there and it's there either way. Yes, but also you might want people to bring you dangerous situations because you love them and you want to help them. Because people are in danger, and not only are they in danger, but they're afraid of these dangerous things. So you might want, particularly you might want your grandson to come and tell you about his dangerous situations. and take you with him when he goes on these adventures so you can help him. And he will come to you and ask you to take him to dangerous places. He does not want to go by himself.

[53:24]

He wants me to go with him on his adventures, his dangerous adventures. And then sometimes he calls the whole thing off. But he comes to me because I'm calm. He doesn't go and ask some frightened person to go on these trips with him And I want to be there to help him walk through this dangerous world. So I'm sitting there waiting for him to come and let me serve him by guiding him on this dangerous path of life. And he will come to me, probably, again and again. Bite his orange without talking to me. As I've learned, I just have to say, you know, Do you want me to bite your arm? And he'll say, no. So I have to be very careful. It's dangerous. Very dangerous. So I do want people to bring me dangerous things so I can help them meet the danger and play with it, if they want to.

[54:31]

I want to help people that way. I want to give, one of the gifts we have, three gifts in Buddhism. Giving material, giving Dharma, and giving fearlessness. Those are the three gifts, three types of gifts. So I want to give people material things. I actually don't want to give my grandson material things too much. Actually, one of the things I'm most afraid of... Want to hear a story about that? So we're going, this is also at the zoo, you know, and they have all these animal gift shops at the zoo, right? And this one gift shop he wanted to go into, it was just full of the most, it was really terrible. And I knew that he wanted, he was checking all this stuff, you know, I knew he was going to want me to buy some of this stuff for him. And I knew that he'd just throw the stuff away in a fire.

[55:35]

He wouldn't even get home, you know. It's just crap. And he's got a room full of stuff, too. But he just wants to bring more. He's a real little consumer, you know. He wants to bring more junk home. And, you know, I was just trying to find some way to, like, I was having a hard time. Because I love him, and I want to get him whatever he wants, and yet I don't want to buy more junk. And it was really difficult, and I was really scared I was going to buy him junk. And I was also scared that I wouldn't buy him junk if he wanted it, because I don't like to not get him something if he wants it. I was having trouble being fearless in there. And later we came back there, and he wanted to go and get the stuff. We came to see the live animals. We're not going to buy any toy animals. I thought, that was good. I didn't think of it because I got so scared, you know. Oh, my God, he's going to force me into buying this crap and polluting the world with junk.

[56:41]

But I want to give him fearlessness. I can't always do it, though. But if I'm meditating on it, it helps. Would you like to express something? Me? Yeah, you. Teach. I'm glad all of you could be here. That's what I'd like to express. Okay. Harrison, would you like to say anything? No, I don't. No? You did. You did express something. Thank you. Yeah, I just did. Anything else? What? The ear. You want me to say something?

[57:52]

I want you to laugh more. Okay. The theme of fear? Yeah, or meditation on fear and fearlessness. We have both here. They really do, actually. I think when I think of fear, I think of what is basically the act of just clinging to yourself. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Somebody else said that earlier. Who was it? Oh, it was Christopher said that. It's basically about self-clinging. That's right. That's what it's basically about. Something?

[59:01]

Express something? Yeah. What's your name? What's your name? Phyllis. Phyllis. Would you like to express something, Phyllis? Yeah, I think for me death doesn't seem to be a problem. What's a problem? Death. It doesn't seem to be. Doesn't seem to be, yeah. Because what I think is that when I die, that's it. I won't be anymore. Uh-huh. And so I really don't worry about something where, you know, if I'm dead, I won't know it. So why should I worry about it? I don't worry about what can't be fought. I'm not saying you should worry. So I think it's just not a problem. It's not a problem for you? Yeah. Okay, well, what is? What is a problem? What are you afraid of? If you would care to let me know. What? If you would care to tell me, if you're not afraid of losing your good reputation with some people?

[60:05]

Yeah. Unless we have such a bad reputation, it can't get any worse. We're always in danger to lose what little good reputation we have. Or if there's somebody who thinks we're not total worthless, we're in danger of even losing that. What is that danger? And then the question is how to open to that danger, open to that danger and see that danger and not be afraid of it. What I do is just notice when I'm thinking that way. Yeah, that's very... And it tends to dissipate. Yeah, right. So you know it's going that way, and it tends to dissipate. Right. That's what it's about. Yes?

[61:09]

I think it's a couple of reasons of fear. I mean, you realize that I have In my own depression. I mean, I think I've spent my life trying to avoid being aware of any depression that I have. So that a lot of behavior that I find it adverse to my being in the moment. It keeps me from doing things that keep me from avoiding getting depressed. For example, sugar. Sugar is a problem for me, and I have a hard time going without sugar because when I go without sugar, then I get depressed. Really? And I don't want to deal with it. Right. And sugar works pretty well? Pardon? Sugar keeps you from getting depressed. Yeah, but it isn't good for me and it doesn't make me feel good. But then what your talks have made me aware of is that I need to be open to the depression.

[62:12]

I need to go there. I didn't say go there. Open to it. You don't have to go there. You can stay here. Why do you want to go there? Because I'm afraid I'll get deep into the depression or something. But I need to be open to it. I need to look at it. You need to open to it if you want to open the door to other possibilities in life. It's not just to be open to it. It's not to open to obnoxiousness just to open to it. It's so that you can become free of the fear of depression and also open the doors to lots of other things in life. Open your heart to lots of people. All of us could get depressed So I'm suggesting open yourself to the danger of depression, the threat of depression, which is another version of open yourself to losing your health. You might lose your health.

[63:13]

But if you close to losing your health, you'll become afraid. And then you lose your health when you become afraid. But if you open to the possibility of losing your health, because we all can lose it, and depression is one unhealthy thing. that can attack us or come to us. I'm saying open to it, and then that opens to a lot of other stuff. So you need to, if you want to open to all the wonderful things in life, all the beauty in life, we can't see the whole beauty if we're closed to depression. And some people say, some people get angry at me when I say that, and they say, depression is just too terrible to be open to. You don't know what you're talking about. I say, okay. But then the unfortunate thing is I think if you close to depression, if you close to it, I think you close to beauty. But I also just want to say that I think... Actually, I said something like that at a retreat in Cleveland.

[64:25]

Somebody really got mad at me. She really got mad at me. I think it's possible to be open to depression and take medication for depression while you're open to it and not afraid of it. Just like I think you can have a headache and be open to the headache and not be afraid of the headache and have an aspirin. But you can also... have a headache, and take an aspirin, and being afraid that you're going to get another headache, even though you don't have one. So I just say, open to depression, be fearless about it, and then if it comes, it's okay to take medication. Taking medication doesn't have to be in the spirit of being afraid of it. It's like taking other kinds of medicines, like drinking green tea. It doesn't have to be because you're afraid.

[65:25]

of having a heart attack, or afraid of being sleepy, or afraid of not having any green tea. And going running, you can go running not because you're afraid of not running, but because you want to go running. It's a little bit, a little turn there. Lisa? I wanted to say that I have bipolar disorder. And for me, depression is safe. I will do things to stay in depression. You feel depression is safer than depression? Yeah. And neither one of them are safe, actually.

[66:31]

Neil. I have a question about the scripture that you read. Yes. If the force, I hear, as it matters for the Lord, Yeah. For us, it's a metaphor. When we're in the city, it's a metaphor. For Buddha, he actually did go in the forest. For us, it's some other situation where we get in touch with... Some place we go to practice where we get in touch with our fear. And the reason why we go to that place is because somebody else who we're following, maybe, goes in that place. So somebody, like, encourages us to go there, and we trust that person, and we go there, and then we get afraid, and then that person tells us how to become free of the fear, like the Buddha did. So he goes in the forest, and he found freedom from fear, and then the other people follow him in the forest, and he taught them what to do.

[67:49]

So this guy is asking him, so how can you go into this dangerous place because people are going to follow you in there and they're going to get scared and they're not going to be able to practice either. And he said, they will get scared if they don't get concentrated. So I'm going to teach them how to be concentrated so they can enjoy it. But it's true. If they go in there and they don't have purified body and mind, they will get scared. And then I can give them instruction about how to go in there and not get scared. But, you know, the guy was kind of wondering how to take people into a place where they'll get scared. Because it is a dangerous place. But he says, yeah, I do go in there and I encourage people to come with me so I can teach them how to be fearless and be at peace and happen in a dangerous place. But the Buddha doesn't think that back in the city is safe. Just that back in the city, people don't know how frightened they are. It's harder to get them to see how frightened they are because they just go to bars. And then they go, I'm not afraid. But you go out in the woods, you can't, there's no bars out there.

[68:54]

There's no TV. So you really do feel, you know. I don't know if you've ever heard of Huey Newton. Yeah. who's like one of the leaders of the Black Panthers. Are you leaving, Phyllis? Yes. Goodbye, Phyllis. Thank you. Harrison's leaving. You're welcome. So anyway, he was a big, strong guy and one of the fearless leaders of the Black Panthers. And I don't mean to criticize him at all, but anyway, he came to our monastery one time And he went into the stream, and they were fishing the stream, and he got terrified of the fish, little fish, little tiny fish, biting at his toes. He got really frightened, because he'd never seen them. And I also heard of inner city kids that get brought out to the country, and there's like no lights.

[69:59]

because of all the street lights and stuff, you know. They never experience dark and they get really scared. But it's not that... You know, it is dangerous out in the dark, but of course we know it's much more people get in trouble in the city than in the forest. It's dangerous, the city's dangerous, but they get numb to the danger of the city. They are not afraid, but they go in the woods and they can experience their fear because it's a new kind of fear. a fear that nobody told them not to have. So the Buddha, like, invites the city dwellers, actually, to come out in the forest. There were city dwellers then, too. In touch with the fear, and then he can teach them where it comes from and how to let go of it. How would that work the other way? Coming from maybe not so much fear of forests, but maybe more fear of the city? Yeah. Bring the country people into the city. Some Zen teachers do that.

[71:06]

They have a nice little country monastery. A lot of people are afraid to go to Zen monasteries, right? To be in these little rooms, you have to sit all the time and all this stuff. Of course, they hit you with the sticks. People are afraid to go to Zen monasteries. So now you have these monks who are in the monastery, and they're totally cool, you know. They've been there for several years. They're, like, completely calm and fearless in the monastery. They're just sitting there. They've learned how to, like, really be calm and fearless. Then the teacher takes them into Tokyo, into the marketplace. Horses through the marketplace to see if they can do that. So all of the thing is keep turning, you know. Keep turning. Don't get... Otherwise you get stuck. You think, I'm not afraid. Okay, let's come over here then. I'm not afraid. Well, smell this. So we have to keep turning and keep checking to make sure we're not living in a little plastic shell that we're used to and that we've learned, I'm safe here.

[72:17]

feel safe it's okay to feel safe I don't mind you feeling safe if you're open to the danger so in some sense we do want to feel safe we want everybody to feel safe and at ease but not by blinding themselves to the natural of life we're going to lose our health we're going to lose our youth we're going to lose our old age we're going to lose our life. We're going to lose our good reputation. We're going to lose everything. That's natural. We're in danger of love's things, naturally. If we don't blind ourselves to that, and then you feel safe, fine. Fine. That's good. That's called fearlessness. That make some sense to you? Would you like to express anything? Me? No, not you. No. Bertha. Do you like your new name?

[73:26]

No. You're excited about something. That's good. Thank you. Do you want to express anything else? I think fearlessness is scary. Fearlessness is scary, yeah. Fearlessness thrives on fearlessness. Fearlessness thrives on fearlessness. Because if you're fearless, you're going to go in really dangerous situations sometimes if people invite you. And again, I suggest to you, if you're fearless, people will invite you into dangerous places. And if you're scared, they won't invite you into dangerous situations as much. They'll just leave you in your current dangerous situation. He's got enough danger. Look, he's trembling in fear with the danger he's already dealing with. Just leave him there. But this person, this common, come with us. We need you to come with us. When I was a kid, but I was really strong. I used to weigh, I weighed way over 200 pounds when I was in high school.

[74:30]

But I wasn't fat. And some of the boys in the school used to dance with them. And one time one of them said, you know, we don't just invite you to go to the dances with us to protect us. We like you too." And I didn't realize that they'd been inviting me to go to protect them. And my mother used to take me to places when she was nervous. She used to take me along because I would help her be calm. And she used to leave my brother at home because he'd make her more nervous. He was like a cat in the car. You know what I mean? He's this great kid, but he's like, you know, you put him in the car and he's like all over the place. Or you put me in the car and I'm just like... So she used to take me with her just to have this big heavy thing sitting next to her.

[75:39]

Ten-pound football player or whatever sitting there. It just made her feel calm. So she used to take me places when she was scared. And she was, my mother was really, in a way, you know, it's interesting that my mother was a very anxious person, very frightened. And her frightened, like trained me to be somewhat fearless. Because I realized that it helped her for me to be courageous and fearless. It helped her. So actually she trained me to convey to her calming. But I'm not saying I didn't have any fear. I still have some fear, but she trained me to help her calm down by being fearless. It took me places for that reason. When I was even a little boy, when I was like five years old, she used to take me to events and sit me down next to her, and I'd just sit there.

[76:47]

I liked being with her and those other ladies at these tea parties. It was really nice for me. No other kids there. Just this one kid who would just sit in his seat. My brother would never sit in his seat. And then after, I don't know when, 8 or 9 o'clock, I would get tired and I'd go sleep. I'd go up into the bedroom and sleep on the bed with all the ladies' fur coats. You know, with all these... nice perfumey coats all over me. And then my mother would take me home and she said, they said you were a very good boy. Which I was. I was just sitting there like calming all the ladies down. I mean, they like little boys that are running over the place, knocking the teacups down too, of course. But they don't call it a good boy necessarily. It's a boy that just sits there. I was happy doing that. So that's part of my training. It started when I was a little boy, of being a calm person and getting encouraged to be calm and then also be encouraged to... into upset situations, like take me to dances where there's other boys that they're afraid of and just have me there and then it makes everybody feel calm.

[78:10]

And I actually did do that. I'd go places, and people would start fights with my friends, and I would say to them, it's not a good idea. It's a waste of time. Forget it. You'll regret it. And they always believed me. So there was never any fights. Because I told them it was really not worth their time. And they never called me on that. So no fights. No violence. at least in those cases. There was one time, however, where a friend of mine got drunk, and we were at this drive-in, and this woman walked by, and he kind of was obnoxious towards her, made a pass at her, and then her big husband comes out, and he's going to take care of my friend. And I start to intervene and say, he's drunk, it's okay, I'll take him away. And then the guy started to attack me. And that was difficult for me because I was being the good guy, right?

[79:13]

I was being the peaceful guy, trying to help, trying to protect both of them, which I didn't think really needed to happen because this guy was really stupid. But then the guy turned on me, and I thought, that really made me angry because I thought, I'm trying to help you, not get in a fight, and help you and protect people. And my self-righteousness caught me, and then I started to get angry. But I noticed that I'm the good guy. That's what got me. And he wasn't appreciating me. There wasn't a fight, but I did get angry. But I thought that was why I got angry, because I thought I had the good. And how dare he not appreciate me, because I'm ready to help him. I was wrong. I was wrong to try to help. But I was wrong to think that I was the good one, and he should appreciate that. Would you like to express anything? Sure.

[80:15]

Okay. I have a comment about football. Comment about what? Okay. And then I have a longer story. Okay. I think more than we watch football, we play football. I like watching football, and I examine which sports I like to watch on TV and which ones I like to watch. It's one for a kind of physical memory of what it feels like to be a Jew. Yeah, right. So it's not courage to watch. They're not football at all. No, football, I've just never become involved with women. But it goes back to my other story I played about in the morning, which is very interesting. I wasn't here. I was an athlete when I was a kid, and I was a girl before Title IX. So I lived very much in school. I played basketball. In fact, I do now, so you can imagine how hard it was getting fed. And I also played baseball with my brothers. But girls didn't play baseball with my daughters. So all through my life, I played softball, all through college. And the irony is, I can hardly get my hands around softball.

[81:16]

So when I had a son, he wanted to play baseball. He couldn't believe he played baseball. And it brought back all those agonist physical memories of throwing the football and that sound of the internet. So I ended up playing baseball, playing catch. We had this great physical meditation . My boyfriend, you know, one of the things I was interested in, he likes cats. He's got a good arm. He's got a good arm. He has a great arm. I have a better arm. Again, of course. He's big, like football. A few weeks ago, I was talking about an acquaintance that she's friends with that I knew her as a kid. And in my memory, she was one of two girls who were the best athletes I've ever known as a kid. And this woman's grown up now. My friend said she's been suffering from intractable depression. And she's been in the hospital for a long time.

[82:19]

And she was coming in from out of town. Well, for a variety of reasons. But she was talking about her. And I knew this person. I hadn't seen her in a while. And I said to my friend, well, and I teach yoga. I took yoga teacher training with Jenny. I said, well, we should get her into yoga. And I said, do you know she plays catch? She still plays big ball? And she said, I have no idea. And I said, well, let's get together. So I had dinner with her and her sister and this woman a few weeks ago. And I said, you know, I'm always looking for someone to catch me. My boyfriend's shoulder gets sore. I said, do you have a complaint still? She said, no, I have a complaint. And I said, well, would you play with me sometime? And she said, sure. And she's very self-conscious. So we left it at that. Meanwhile, they're going to go there.

[83:22]

And sitting here yesterday, trying to clear her mind, I was thinking about the weather. I was thinking, it would have been a great day to play catch. And then I thought of her, and I'm thinking, I have no idea how to get a hold of her. She's living in a house. And I think, you know, it's normal to be able to catch her. But it's already dark by the time I get home from work, so I don't really have a lot of time to be able to catch her. And when I left her last night, we went home. Neil and Jan are staying at my house. And they're exhausted. We took a nap, and the phone rang. And I hear them. And when I got up, it was a cop with a woman with a phone number. So I called her and said, so what's up? You want to play catch? She said, it kind of sounds funny. Sounds cool to me. And she said, yeah. She said, okay. And it sounded like it was brave. And she's like, what do you want to do?

[84:23]

And I said, how about tomorrow? She said, okay. And I said, well. And then she's like, what? I said, how about in the morning? She said, well, what time? I had to get these guys here at 9. I said, well, how about 9.30? She said, you know, I don't drive. I drove these guys here this morning. Then I went and picked her up. I had mitts. As we started playing the softball, and I told her the whole story. I said, well, we can start with the softball. We can do softer and I said, but I'm much better at a hardball. So we played with a softball for a while, and it was a little awkward, and she really hadn't played in a long time. And then we switched to a hardball, and she played much better. And she said, you know, the catching is coming back. And she was catching it well, but she was having a hard time throwing it. And she got better, and we played for an hour. And then I had to go, and she had to go on.

[85:24]

It was just a great one, and I'll do it routinely. And I'm hoping this is going to help her remember how good she is. It will. It will. Don't worry. This is really especially good for depressions. Get the body, the mind, one thing, but get the body going. And the chemistry changes. However, you know, it's hard to play catch all day long. Yeah. But this may be the person that will play catch with you all day long. Yeah, this is great medicine. Definitely. It's hard to be depressed when you're running or swimming or playing catch. Hardball. So yeah, I think that's really wonderful. That was totally in accord with you coming here, from my perspective.

[86:33]

That's the Buddha way, is to help her play catch. Even though, of course, you just did it for selfish reasons. Just another one person to play catch with. Let me bring up one other quick point. They didn't throw out whether I should tell this story. I get caught up when it's being egotistical. I tell stories and talk about it. When it's useful. Yeah. Well, you got invited. And it was good that... And if there was any... There was, of course, the danger of egotism is looming around you all the time. I think if you'd be open to the danger that you might have been on some... Open to that, but hopefully not afraid of it. And then you can, like, spin and leap beyond it. Which, you know... I don't know if you did or not. But you were invited to tell the story and to express yourself, and you did.

[87:39]

You go there, you get to see it. And leap, [...] throw, catch, leap. Ego's flying all over the place. Can you give me some attention over here? Okay, just a second. Okay. Let's see, now it's 424. Would you like to have a nurse sitting before we end today? Yes, you want? You have to go? Okay. Well, great to meet you, Neil. And Jan. And Carol? Oh, you for that? No, they have to get some out of my car. They're right somewhere. Oh. Don't you sing? You and I are so fabulous. Okay. So, goodbye to you.

[88:40]

Maybe before you go, I'll sing you a song. If you want me to. Oh, I'd love it. Yeah, more songs. Okay. There may be trouble ahead So while there's music and moonlight and love and romance Let's face the music and dance Before the fiddlers have fled Before they Just to pay the bill And while there's still a chance Let's face the music and dance Soon we'll be without Humming a different tune And then

[89:47]

There may be teardrops to shed So while there's music and moonlight And love and romance Let's face the music and dance Let's face the danger and dance So thank you all.

[90:19]

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