I intend to begin with going to the center of the sutra again to look at the place where tranquility and insightful observation are united. And then I'd like to go to a topic which I mentioned earlier. And that is how to apply some of these teachings to working with pain and disease and all sentient beings. And in particular to talk about the crucial role in this process of working with limits and boundaries. So at the central point in the sutra, especially at the center of the message of chapter 8 on the definitive instructions on yoga for bodhisattvas, Maitreya asked the Buddha, at what point

[01:23]

are, having combined Samatha and Vipassana, or at what point, having combined Samatha and Vipassana, are they united? And the Buddha's answer, when they mentally attain to the one-pointed mind, And so I just want to look at that a little bit more. When we practice, according to this sutra, when we practice observation, for it to actually be authentic observation, it is practiced on the ground of tranquility. So in a sense, Whenever we're actually practicing observation in this authentic way, the two practices are combined because there must be this attainment of tranquility for the observation to be qualified as vipassana, higher vision, insightful observation, rather than just looking at objects.

[03:05]

And then the question is, at what point are they united? And I would again use our word for this practice period. At what point are they intimate? And they're intimate when they attend to the one-pointed mind. They're intimate when the calm is so intimate with the observation, that the observation is now understanding that it's looking at the mind when it's looking at objects. And the concentration understands that when it's looking at objects, it's looking at its mind that it's always focusing on. So that total intimacy is the place where they're intimate, where they're united, and also the observation goes on.

[04:09]

Now they're looking at this intimacy. Now they're looking at the realization of this teaching. Now they're looking at suchness. So this is the place where we would like to get to in relationship to pain and suffering and our relationships with all beings. so that we're looking, again, we're looking at beings and we're looking at the suchness of the beings. I suggest then, as I mentioned before, that the practice of generously giving boundaries and limits in relationship to the practice of generously giving boundaries and limits for the sake of intimacy in relationship to pain, disease, all sentient beings, and Buddhas.

[05:31]

we even, in order to become intimate with Buddhas, we need to set some boundaries. In order to be intimate with sentient beings, we need to offer boundaries and limits. In order to become intimate with our own bodily pain and disease, we need to give boundaries and limits, I propose. The Buddhas may not need us to set limits, but we do. We, if we walk up to a Buddha, we often say, oh, sorry, wrong place, see you later. I don't really want to talk to you. You're a busy guy, right? See you later. I got an appointment with Buddha today. You do? Yeah. How did it go? Actually, I left before I got it. I chickened out. It was a little bit too much light for me.

[06:38]

Bring sunglasses next time. It's a good idea. Limits. Wear a sun shield. And the other thing to mention at the beginning, fundamental thing I feel is that these are offerings. We're offering, we embrace the limits ourselves, we accept them, and we offer them as gifts rather than as control strategies and manipulations. Again, if you try to control the pain, we're separating ourselves.

[07:49]

We all know how to, we all do that. Some have done that. We may do it in the future. But these limits are, it's possible to use these limits as a way to get closer and finally they get so close that there's no separation. That's our intention. And we can constantly slip off from giving it as a gift to using it as a strategy to keep some distance. If we're trying to get control of the pain, it's not, you know, it's not the same as remembering that we're offering this limit with the ultimate purpose of becoming intimate with it.

[08:51]

And the point of becoming intimate with it is that we can be at peace and free even when there is pain. Because there are situations when nobody and nothing can get us any distance on the pain. So it's fine to take pain medication. No problem. You can do that. I can do that. But I'd like to get ready for the time when there's no medication. There's no medication for death. You can't get away from it. You can only resist it and fight it, distract yourself from it, But then you're basically, you know, suffering. It's not peaceful to fight it. And other kinds of dis-eases are really, we're not going to get them under control.

[10:02]

So this practice is to get ready for the things, for the big ones. the big white wave that nobody can stop. Also I, well, let me say this that, so part of the limits are Another kind of limit is that when you think of doing something, it's good to yourself, limit yourself.

[11:07]

Give yourself a limit, I should say. Not limit yourself, but give yourself a limit. Not limit yourself. Give yourself a limit to work with. Not to limit yourself, but actually to fulfill yourself, to make yourself more completely a person that you are. So, for example, if you're practicing in a family, on a team, in a community. And Zen is family practice. Zen is team practice. Zen is community practice. And part of the reason we have that is so that when you contemplate an action, you consult with your community members. You consult with your family members. You consult with your teacher. with your brothers and sisters, with your children, with your parents.

[12:12]

So again, I don't say this to limit myself, but actually these limits, by bringing them up, they're ways to fulfill myself. And again, the ultimate point is to fulfill myself, yes, dash intimacy. the bringing up the limit of checking with others that we're living together with about what we're doing is for the sake of intimacy. But it's also kind of a limit. Like, I'd like to just do this. Okay, I got this pretty good idea. I think, well, let's all try it. Wait a minute. Actually, it is a good idea. I agree, but check with your family members about this good idea. not just to get their agreement or disagreement, but for intimacy.

[13:16]

They may disagree with you, but the bringing up the boundary and sharing it with them develops the intimacy. Just this morning, actually, I had this nice idea, and So I checked with Reverend Frane about it. And he didn't say right away, yeah, that's a good idea. He said, I'll consider it. Because the idea I had would affect his life and his relationship with other people. It would affect my life and relationship with other people, but I had already checked with myself. And I said, okay, cool. And if he says, okay, cool, then I have to also check with, or he has to check with Anna, Mako, Judith, and Kathy, and Leslie.

[14:27]

Because the idea is, how about in the last day, no doksan or practice instruction, and just everybody sits. That was the idea. It's an idea that occurred to me. It's an action I was considering. I might also ask my trusty attendant what he thinks. He might say, I think it's okay. Or he might say, no, you've got to see these people. It's a limit. I'm not limited by this. I'm facilitated by this. I'm facilitated by the fact that everything I do affects everybody. And that fact that everything I do affects everybody is a manifestation of the intimacy, a factor of the intimacy.

[15:31]

So I have these ideas and I find out, well, actually, I can't do anything. But that's okay because I have various things I'm thinking of. I just can't do any of them because after I check, I can't do anything except check. Except I can think of good ideas and I can check with people and then none of them are acceptable. But what I'm doing is I'm realizing intimacy by checking. All I accomplished in this whole practice period, I didn't do anything, all I accomplished was intimacy. They wouldn't let me do one thing, but everything they wouldn't let me do, they, you know, they were totally intimate with me about. Bodhisattvas are encouraged basically to give everything away, all their possessions, not hold on to any of them. It's major precept number eight. not being possessive of anything, not being possessive of the most precious thing, the Dharma, not to mention anything else.

[16:39]

So we just say, not being possessive of anything. Usually it says, not being possessive of Dharma. But in the West, where Dharma is not yet equal to money, we say, you know, everything. For example, your body. Somebody wants your body? Bodhisattvas are encouraged to give it. However, give it with intimacy with everybody. Don't just give it unilaterally. Like somebody says, can I have your body? I say, yeah. No, it's not like that. It's, yeah, you can have it after I check with everybody. And they won't let me, but I'll, you know. Then you go check and they say, actually, it's okay. Go ahead, give it. You know, you're really old. It's all right. You're only going to be around for about 15 more minutes.

[17:41]

Go ahead, give your body. Okay. I mean, you know, it's been great. We appreciated you up till now. But, you know, considering how much that person needs and, you know, we're not going to get much more out of you anyway. Go ahead. So it says in the Bodhisattva instruction manuals, when people ask you for their body, it's fine to give it. But first of all, you should check with your family and your teacher. your teacher has a sense of whether you're actually going to be able to follow through. Because it's not good to give your body and then change your mind halfway through. You know, like, yeah, here, have my arm. And then they start munching. You say, wait, I changed my mind. And the person says, well, you said I could, so I'm going to keep doing it. No, no, I changed my mind. And then you get into a tussle, you know. It's rather advanced to give your body. So your teacher might say, that's great that you want to, but you're not ready. It's too advanced.

[18:41]

I'd like to give my house away. Well, check with your kids and your parents. It's fine that you want to, but don't do it, you know, without consulting with your family. I'd like to give the Pines away. I'd like to give some posthouse of hard property away. Fine. Talk to the community. See if they support it. If they do, great. And it's also not in your gift all by yourself, it's our gift. Any wholesome act you're considering, still check with others, if possible. Sometimes you don't have time, like somebody's in the creek and you're and you think about going in to help them, and you jump in and you drown. So we just heard the other day that if we have a storm here and somebody's in the water, you're not supposed to jump in to help them.

[19:50]

And if you ask your supervisor, they say, don't jump in, it's not going to help. Here, put this rope around you, now you can jump in. No, not even then. See what I mean? I can't even do that. How about throwing them a rope? Okay, I checked. I can do something at last, but not that rope. That's not a good one. I... So we have physical difficulties here during the practice period.

[20:53]

We have some problems with, I don't know, sleep, too much or too little sleep. We have problems with the temperature, too hot or too cold. I had some problems with, what was it, 1990? I had a problem. It was hard for me. And I heard that after November comes December, and it gets colder here. One time it got down to 10 here. 10 is cold. So if it gets to be 10, then that's going to be a big white wave for us to deal with. So how do you get intimate with cold? So I've been working on that here and other places for some time, trying to work with how to be intimate with cold.

[21:58]

So I swim in the Pacific Ocean, and I have swam in the Pacific Ocean all the way through the winter, some winters. But I started swimming in the ocean, in the San Francisco Bay, I started swimming, the first time I went, I think, I went in August, when it was like above 60. Now 60 is, 61 for some people is quite cold, and it was cold, but it was a warm day. And I went in and it was cold. My body was intimate with the water. Actually, initially it wasn't intimate. Initially there was some kind of me and the water kind of thing going on. But I found some intimacy with the 61 or whatever it was. And then I just kept swimming. And if you swim every day, then the water will only drop maybe one degree from what it was the day before.

[23:09]

And that amount of drop I could be patient with. I could be I could be somewhat gracious with. Of course, I could be careful with, too. Not of course. And I could be careful. I could be careful, patient, and somewhat welcoming. And when I go into the water, I didn't used to do it, but now when I go in the water, I try to go in not exactly slow, but I try not to get ahead of the experience of the water touching my body. A lot of people just run in because they don't want to feel that. They just want to get themselves in the water. I like to see if I can feel the water rising up my torso. My legs don't mind so much, but my torso is more sensitive to the cold. And as it rises up my abdomen and chest and sides and back, it's hard to stay present with it, but not impossible.

[24:12]

especially if it's only one degree colder than the day before. If I take several weeks off and it's ten degrees colder than it was the day before, it's harder to do that, but it's actually harder just to go into the water at all. So in some sense I would set a limit on myself Yeah. So I kind of know from experience that just flat out, having not been in the water for a long time, I can go into water that's about 55 and it's not a problem, if I haven't been in the water for a long time. But if it's below 55, particularly below 53, I offer myself a boundary. It's a bit too much.

[25:19]

Now, if the day before I'd been in 54 and swam around in it, then I can go into 53. And so on. I've gotten down to 43. I got intimate with 43-degree water. I went swimming in it. I didn't just go in it, I went for a swim. It wasn't a leisurely swim, but I did swim. I swam half a mile in 43-degree water. And it was, yeah, I was intimate with that experience. And I would like to be intimate with other intense experiences like that so that I can be intimate with intense experiences that I can't choose that are going to be given to me without consultation with me, or at least without consultation that I know about. I also, in thinking about this, I remembered an article that is in the New Yorker magazine, which I have not yet read all of, and it's an article which I think is called A Dip in the Cold, and it's written by Lynn Cox.

[26:48]

Lynn Cox set the world's record in the English Channel when she was 15. She became a long-distance swimmer when she was 14. Before she was 14, she swam shorter distances. And she set world's records, and then she moved on to swimming places that no one has ever swam before, like she swam the Bering Strait. She swam from Alaska to Russia. Then she decided that she wanted to swim. She wanted to find the limits of her body. And she wanted to see what extremes her body could tolerate. And in particular, she was interested in how cold water she could tolerate. She didn't go into hot water.

[27:51]

She might get into the hottest water, but she's into the coldest water now. Now, as you know, water can't get indefinitely cold. It turns to ice at a certain point. But she actually... Some time ago, she went swimming for more than a mile off the coast of Antarctica, wearing nothing but a swimsuit. However, the preparation she went through to do this was basically a preparation of limits. She kept checking all kinds of limits. She had a big team of doctors working with her. She had all kinds of physiological scientists working with her about whether she would die if she tried this. Some people who have experienced this place say, if you go in to water that temperature, you will die in two minutes.

[28:57]

But she wanted to swim in for more than two minutes. She wanted to see if she could, and she did. She swam more than a mile, and she was in for about, I think, 22 minutes in water that was, I believe, about 32 degrees, 11 degrees colder than I could do, than I have done so far, probably ever will. And she wrote an article in the New Yorker about it. And also she came to the dolphin club where I swim and gave a talk one time. I didn't see her. I asked, what does she look like? She said, well, she looked like a fish. Anyway, now she's written an article called A Dip in the Cold. And this article is about swimming portions of the Northwest Passage. In the Northwest Passage, there is water between Greenland and Alaska.

[30:07]

And until 1906, no boats could ever make it. So she wanted to go make the trip on a boat. We have more advanced boats now, of course. And also global warming makes it a lot easier. But anyway, she wanted to go and she wanted to swim parts of it. And she did. And I think she swam a mile up there. But up there, for some reason, the water in the Arctic can be below freezing. So she swam a mile in 28-degree water. But I'm not just her feet that I'm telling you about, but just that the feet, the main point is the feet she performed was because she carefully took into account the limits of her body. Her body is limited, and she carefully looked at them and related to them in such a way she could become intimate with them and find out what was reasonable and what wasn't.

[31:10]

And she survived. But she wants to push right to the limit of what can she get intimate with and what can't she. And what does it take to get to a place to be intimate with something that previously you weren't able to be intimate with? So in my case, I'm telling you that I got intimate with 40-degree water or somewhat intimate with 43-degree water, but I didn't go from 82 degrees to 42. If I had, I might have died. I mean, if I'd actually got out in the water. Not just if I stepped in and stepped out, but actually get out away from the shore without a boat near me, just me in the water, Your muscles can cramp up. You can have a heart attack. You can pass out. Hypothermia, of course, but you don't usually get hypothermia in 10 minutes.

[32:12]

But you can die in a few seconds in that kind of shock. So we have that situation here. We have pain in our body when we're sitting. We have pain with the cold. these pains, in order to get intimate with them, I suggest we, you know, allow ourselves to have limits. Don't push ourselves too hard, because then we'll, like, hurt ourselves or we'll quit, etc. Check with your friends and teachers about the way you're working with your pain and your disease. See if they agree. So that's about your own pain and disease. And in relationships, it's the same. You'd like to be intimate with people, but also you feel limits arising in you. You feel like, I don't know why, but I would like to ask you to stop talking to me like that.

[33:16]

I'd like to talk to you. I'm not just setting it there. I'm giving it as a gift to you. I would like you to look at me differently. I would like you to stand farther away from me. I would like you to consult with me before you do things. I would like to offer you the limit or the boundary that you don't do things without talking to me. I would like to work for the sake of our intimacy. And when I offer that, I would like to also be aware of another limit, which is your vulnerability, if I tell you about my vulnerability. I'm feeling vulnerable, but if I tell you about my vulnerability, that could hurt you. So I have to be careful when I bring something like that up. May I talk to you? People ask to me, please give me feedback, and I say, you know, I would be happy to do so. I mean, I would be happy and grateful to do so, but that doesn't mean I'll be able to.

[34:24]

Because now you're saying you want it, but when the time comes, you won't be the same person. Somebody else will be here, and they may not be at all interested in feedback from anybody. They may not want feedback. They may want a limit. They may want people to stay away. They may want, you know, like my grandson, we were riding down the Green Gulch Road, and I saw him come to the speed bump, and I said, slow down. And he didn't, and hit the speed bump, and then there he went, hit the ground, and that was okay with him, but when he started sliding, it got really painful. And I came up to him to help, and he said, leave me alone. Leave me alone. And then he went back to his mom and grandma, and they tried to help him. Leave me alone. Don't touch my body. They're just trying to help, and they didn't. They didn't touch him. They let him have that limit.

[35:28]

And then when he found out that he could have that limit, then he let them touch him. So I also think of, what is it? this wonderful kind of person called Temple Grandin. She's an autistic person. Can you say that? She has autism, but she's also a genius. And she designed, she loves to be hugged, but she also doesn't, she doesn't want, she needs some boundaries in the hugging. And when people hug her, she gets so, what do you call it, what's the word, overwhelmed by the experience, that she can't even say, let go, release. And there's no button on people that you press, a release button for the hug. But she loves to be embraced. But she also gets scared unless she knows she can turn the embrace off.

[36:32]

So she designed a hug machine. that she goes into and it hugs her. But she's got her hand, I think, on some kind of like a hug release button. So as soon as it gets too intense, she presses the button and she's released. And she also designed... slaughterhouses so that these domesticated cows could go to the slaughterhouse without being traumatized on the way. They could die not in fear. Someone pointed out cows are prey animals, so they have ways of dealing with being eaten. But they're not torturers on the way to death. So they usually like to walk along and then there's this interaction and they know how to deal with that. But she designed it so that they could go to slaughter peacefully until they get... So she's really sensitive about how to set boundaries.

[37:42]

And if we want to be intimate, we need to realize that we're vulnerable beings and we need to take care of that vulnerability. Otherwise, we'll back away from the place where the separation is going to be insubstantiated. Another very important detail here, which some people have brought up, is that if you're actually calm, when you're actually concentrated, even if there's some physiological proof that you're in pain, you actually might not experience it.

[38:49]

certain states of concentration, there's no negative sensation in them. And so they can be kind of a relief from pain. But that particular possibility is similar to dissociating from the pain or doing what now we call a spiritual bypass around pain, disease, and uncomfortable relationships. So we need, in our practice, for our own sake and for others, we need to learn the difference between being compassionate and tranquil with the pain and dissociating from it. Again, I heard another autistic person say that when he was a kid in the schoolyards in England and people were bullying him, it didn't take much to bully him, but they were bullying him and he was feeling terrified and tortured, he would just start squaring numbers in his head.

[40:07]

And he could do that. And he said, as he got into the squaring, he said, I would just sort of leave the playground and I would go to this peaceful island where nothing was bothering me. That was his way of coping with the overwhelming experience of cruelty in the playground. So it kind of worked, he said, but the problem is how to get back. Very difficult to get back once you go there. So the practice of being at peace with pain One way to be at peace with pain is to dissociate from it. And people who aren't autistic also develop mental strategies to be with pain, but it's in a dissociated way, which has drawbacks, like you can't get back to your life.

[41:16]

So the method here is you know, really embrace the pain. Not like it, but embrace it. Be gracious with it. Let it in. Let it be in a gracious way. Practice giving in relationship to the pain or the disease. It is that I like this disease and that disease and that disease. I don't like them. I'm not saying I like them, I'm saying I welcome them. Or I say I'm trying to learn to welcome very difficult guests. I'm trying to learn that. And I'm trying to learn it now. But the guests I have now, I get a feeling are not as difficult as some guests that are coming. But I would like to be able to welcome them too. I'd like my... or I'd like the welcoming mojo to get really working so that even when I don't know where I am or who I am or what direction is up, the welcoming mojo just keeps cooking away and embraces my confusion, embraces my pain, embraces my fear so that I can move towards intimacy with it.

[42:38]

And then the next one is Be careful of it. Be careful of the pain. Be careful. Pay attention to it. Be vigilant. Watch it. The pain. The pain, the pain, the pain. Where is it? Okay. And, you know, that's ethics. Be careful of everything you do in relationship to the pain. Are you taking pain medication? Be careful not to take too much or too little. Be careful to consult with somebody about what you're doing with pain medication. eating more, eating less in relationship to pain and disease. Don't do it unilaterally. Talk to your friends. Be careful with this pain, with this disease. And be patient. But patient doesn't mean just tense up. It means come to the present. feel the pain here in the smallest place you can feel it, and now in the smallest time.

[43:43]

And now. And now. And now. And in now, and now, and now, there's no thought of, how long has this been going on? I wonder how long this has been going on. They say, what day of Sashin is this? How many more minutes in this period? No, this pain. No, no, no. It doesn't take the pain away. It's just a way of being with it. It's an approach to being intimate. It's an approach to peace with it without dissociating. Then we're ready for concentration. Then we're ready to look at the mind, even if the mind is doing squares. But the mind isn't doing squares. That mind is the mind which Vipassana looks at, the squaring mind. We're looking at the mind which is there whether you're doing squares or cubes. So to look at the mind, you could, as soon as you run into pain, you could immediately look at the mind and use the mind to dissociate.

[44:49]

But now we're going to use the mind not to dissociate, but to get more intimate. So here again, you should check with the meditation teacher to make sure the way you're looking at the mind is not dissociative and bypassing. Tell the teachers how you're practicing tranquility in relationship to pain to see if they feel like you're not pushing it away as a trick way to get closer to it. Auspicious time to ring the bell. And for me, all the things I mentioned about how to, well, all the things I mentioned about, not all the things, but some of the things I mentioned about how to relate to pain and disease involved other sentient beings.

[46:45]

So the same with other sentient beings. Just as you consult them about the way you're dealing with pain and disease, You should consult your pain and disease about the way you're relating to sentient beings. And the same principles in relating to sentient beings for the sake of intimacy is to use boundaries and limits as a way to dare to be intimate. Like Temple Grandin dares to be intimate with her hugging machine because she knows her limits. She wants intimacy, but she has to know that she can set limits with the hug. And if someone wants to be near to us, we may be able to let them be near to us if we know, I shouldn't say know exactly, but unless we've experimented with them and found out that we repeatedly have offered them limits and they've said, fine.

[47:47]

So we know if they get closer and I feel I need a limit, I can say it to them and they'll say fine. That they're also practicing patience with their action and they respect our vulnerability. And even if we don't tell them about it, they check with us about it. Yeah. They respect us when we say, you know, I need to set, I need to offer, again, I need to offer, not set. I need to offer a limit for your consideration. Let's set this or establish this limit together. So maybe you've heard the example. I have younger grandchildren. I have a big boy grandson who's 11 almost, and I have... one that's almost ten and one that's almost eight, a boy and a girl, and they like to put their hands into my mouth.

[48:50]

Even recently, at this advanced age of eight, he still likes to put his hand into my mouth and also to pull my mouth in various directions. My lips, my tongue, likes to, like, manipulate them. And I let them do that, but I say, I'd like to set a limit here. And the price of admission to the mouth is clean hands. So they go and wash their hands. And also another form we have here in this practice is let me smell the hands. And then, does it not smell clean yet? Please do it again. Okay, now they smell clean. Now you can put the hands in the mouth. And also you can't pull that hard. No, no, that's too much. So some feedback on the situation is part of the deal. Some people, some grandchildren do want to get really intimate with their grandparents. And some grandparents are available to be intimized.

[49:51]

Is it called intubated? What's the word? Intubated? Is that a word? Does it mean like going in? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, well, children like to intubate with their hands sometimes. And some people say, okay, but we need some limits here in order to perform this intimate act. And now I feel that actually we live in this, in some ways, this really great place called California, Northern California, San Francisco, and you go to the doctor's office and they say, I'm going to touch you now, and my hands may be a little cold. When I was a kid, they didn't say that. But now they say, I'm going to touch you, and my hands may be a little cold. Wow. This may, this, I'm going to prick you a little bit with this pin, and it may feel, and they tell you exactly how it may feel. And kind of like you sign on for that, you know. It's like, that sounds okay. And it's just like that.

[50:54]

The level of boundary establishing, you know, has been, you know, this is one of the great benefits of lawyers. You know, people have to be very careful of what they do. And I think that it's good. I'm sorry if it bankrupts various people, but the care with which people do things in some settings is really intimacy-facilitating. In other words, it's really ethical. In other words, they're paying close attention to the minute details of their action. Yeah. And sometimes they're patient and generous too. And that's really such an encouragement, isn't it? And so intimate. I don't want to leave the hospital. You people are so nice to me. So that's what I wanted to say about offering, not setting, offering for agreement, offering for agreement, boundaries and limits, so that we can be intimate with each other.

[52:13]

So teachers and students can be intimate. So teachers and teachers can be intimate. So students and students can be intimate. So all beings can be intimate. And also, all beings means you and the being of your pain and you and the being of your illness, that you can be intimate and realize there's no separation between you and your illness. And I'm going to propose when illness is not seen as external, unwholesome, unfortunate states of mind are pacified. And we enter the middle way. And one more thing which I've said many times. Suzuki actually surprised me a number of times. by things he said in the early days that I knew him. One thing he surprised me by was doing a funeral ceremony for his dear student, Trudy Dixon.

[53:20]

I went to the ceremony, and I was amazed. I thought it was a beautiful thing. I'd never been to a funeral ceremony. I heard that they were terrible, morbid things. And I went to it, and I thought, this is a wonderful thing for living people. That surprised me. And another time he said, when you see a flower and you say it's beautiful, that's a sin. I was surprised to hear him use the word sin, and I was also surprised how strict he was about sin. That to call a flower beautiful is a kind of a sin. I think he meant you're separating yourself from it. I thought, wow, that surprised me. And another surprise he said was at a wedding ceremony, he said to the couple, he said something like, you love each other, and that's good. But maybe more important than that is for you to respect each other. And then he said, another thing he said which surprised me is that when we're not intimate with people, we can be informal.

[54:30]

But for intimacy, we need formality, like wash your hands before you put them in my mouth. Consult with me before you stick a needle in me. Ask me if I'm ready for you to touch me before you touch me. Let's practice that form. Ask me if now is a good time for you to tell me something. And if you ask me, I may be able to hear quite a bit. If you don't ask me, in my vulnerability, I may not be able to receive your gift. This is just my view, it's not truth, just a gift to you. And it's for the sake of intimacy, because that's the topic of the practice period. You are cordially invited to make offerings to the Triple Treasure if you wish.

[55:58]

One second, please. Thank you very much for the talk today. You're welcome. I'm just curious about going back to your swimming analogy. You were talking about the water and how on kind of a daily gradient scale you could then get more and more used to being intimate with colder and colder water. And then you said that, you know, if you had been, you know, instantly dropped on this 43 degree water, It might have killed you. You might have had a heart attack or whatever. But you have this preparation process. It seems that many times in life we don't get much of a preparation process. life seems many times to be more like just being dropped in the 43 degree water. And I'm curious in regard to the preparation process to allow for this shot.

[58:03]

Because when I observe myself and most people, they don't tend to get into a lot of trouble when they can see stuff coming. They can see an argument that got to go settle or what have you. But when stuff settles up next to you, you don't see it coming. And then all of a sudden you're in the middle of it before you really even consciously engage your parent or your friend or your boss or whatever. That's when you find yourself all of a sudden cramping up in 43 degree water and then all of a sudden you realize, oh, I haven't prepared for this. Well, you're in trouble. You're miserable and scared and you die scared. Yeah. And you also said, which this isn't recorded audially, but he says when something sidles up and he brought his left hand over to his shoulder, and a lot of people say that's where death is. So if death comes up to you unexpectedly, you don't have much of a chance to say, hi, darling, I've been waiting for you.

[59:04]

I've been practicing Zen for 50 years because I thought you'd be coming and I'm ready for you, sweetheart. So this practice is the preparation for this stuff. That's a lovely question. What we're doing here is getting prepared for this stuff. Because if you wait until they come to start getting prepared, it's not called preparation. It's called shock and awe. So we don't have a chance to deal with this big stuff if we're not well trained. And we see sometimes... with some of the smaller versions of these big challenges. We see, oh my, yeah, my practice helped me. I wouldn't have been able to deal with this if I hadn't been practicing all these years. So that's what we're doing here. We're getting ready for the big ones, because we won't be able to start practicing compassion when somebody comes and smashes us in the face. That's not the time to start. The time to start is now, right here, when everybody's nice to you most of the time. And then when they're a little bit disrespectful, you practice giving, welcoming, being careful, being patient, and finally realizing wisdom.

[60:16]

Then you're prepared for big insults like, hand over the body, Michael. But before you hand it over, we're going to crush it. into all kinds of sickness and pain. And then we're going to take it away. And you say, hey man, I'm here for you. I've been waiting to give myself. I love you. That's what we're training for. This is big preparation. And after the recession is over, I'm going to give you a gift of more details on preparing for death. More details on how to help you make it easier for your friends and family to go through the dying process with you. We're going to do a class on preparation for death. You know, what that brings up as far as just a thought instantly is that it seems a lot like, I don't want to use the word attainment, but it seems like a growth process, like a self-improvement process, which I know Zen isn't about.

[61:27]

It seems that way, yeah. But it does seem that way, to be preparing for something. Yeah, so that's another thing to get intimate with, get intimate with the appearance of self-improvement so that we can be at peace and free of the appearance of self-improvement. Self-improvement is just conscious construction. That's all it is. There's not really any self-improvement. It's just an idea. I'm not really more prepared for 43 degree water. I'm just having the idea that I am. That's right. And if you know that, you'll be more prepared for 43 degree water. Thank you. If I could just briefly mention, I think in my, maybe my, not my first practice period, but my first summer here, or second summer here, I read a book called Magister Ludi by Hermann Hesse.

[62:33]

And at the end of the book, not the end of the book, and the book's about, Magister Ludi means, Ludi means, actually Ludi means, I think, like play. And like in, what is the word, the word collude means to play together. Collude. So Magister means the great master of the game, of the bean game. So he was this great master. At the end of the book, he goes swimming with one of his students in cold water and drowns. And I thought, yeah, that's why I'm practicing Zen. It isn't just up in your head. It isn't just, oh, yeah, prajnaparamita. It's like, yeah, it's prajnaparamita. Would you please come into this cold water with me, teacher? Would you come swimming with me, old man? That old man forgot his body in that practice.

[63:37]

And so he couldn't... And even our master, Suzuki Roshi, down the creek, he got excited and jumped in the narrows. He forgot he didn't know how to swim. So we need to practice in a way that includes our body. Welcome, buddy. Can you come swimming with me, old man? What's the temperature of the water? I don't know yet. What? I don't know yet. Well, it depends on the temperature of the water. I'll go down to the beach and see how it is. But if it's too rough, I might not be able to go in today. Okay, well, we'll see how this goes. Okay. May I say something about, out of respect for William, that you sent an email about yesterday?

[64:44]

Yes. Do you want to explain to people? Yeah. Yeah. Magically, an email arrived, at Asahara, for you. And it was from... to Rusa who was communicating a message from a chaplain who was communicating a message from a family and spouse or partner of a man named William who was dying and who asked for you and wanted you to be there while he was dying a couple of days ago. I'm really touched that we were here at Tassajara, so you didn't respond by going. In fact, probably you passed away before you got the message.

[65:47]

But I was really touched. Well, I'm touched by so many things that it's kind of hard to know where to start. For instance, when I ask for you, I get you. So that makes me think about William. And I was touched by Rusa's kind of careful transcription of the message and taking care to send it to Keith and Leslie right away and to also state in the email that she... had called the chaplain to give names of other priests at that center that might be able to attend this person's death process. And I noticed at the bottom of the email, Risa said, I know that you're not permitted to tell stories about Risa, but she's never told me that I couldn't.

[66:53]

Wait a second, though. Don't you think maybe she checked with her? Would I do that? Call her on the telephone. You think I shouldn't say what you said at the bottom of the message? I don't know. But there is the issue of checking with her before you quote her, because if you quote her, then people might say, oh, you said blah, blah. Well, if you're my model, then... Don't copy my mistakes. I will do my best. I appreciate you listening to me. Yeah, and I think it would be respectful for you to ask Ruse if you could tell the song or what she wrote there. Because she is actually a person who asked me not to talk about her so much because after I talk to her, then people say, oh, Reb said this and that about you. And then she has to you know, deal with all these people coming here and talking to her, and she doesn't want that.

[67:59]

So I think me saying that might not be so bad because I don't think you're all going to go and tell her, well, I understand you don't want us to talk to you. But she doesn't want, you know, like if she's walking around Green Gulch and she comes down for lunch on Sunday, she doesn't want 40 people to come over to her and... So that's why she says, don't talk about me. But this talking that you're just doing, that is holding, that feels like holding the boundary? I think, I thought so. It's a respectful way of talking? I hope so. Do you think it was respectful? Well, I feel, I feel okay about respectfulness. And I feel okay about not... I'm not telling the sangha what she said. I guess I could just say I was really touched by what she said. Yeah, that's fine. And then I also, I mean, your sort of diligence about right speech here makes me wonder, do you feel like I dishonored William by sharing with the sangha his asking for you?

[69:08]

No, because he's not going to get inundated by Sangha members saying, Steph told me about you asking Rem to come and see you. It's not going to happen to him. But if he lived at Zen Center, and you talked about him, that might have an effect on him. But I think this is not going to be a hassle for him. I think it was fine that you brought him up as an example of something that touches you. in the context of what is this practice for? Who is the practice for? And in light of come to mind the preciousness of the situation we're in. And I know that I will not It will not always be this way for me, but I will ask for you and you will be there.

[70:10]

So I'm just so grateful for the circumstances of this ungraspable ocean. And I feel a very deep and inexpressible appreciation for the beings that are coming to swim together. The Sangha Ocean. The Sangha Ocean. That's one of the names for the monastic sanghas, the Great Ocean Sangha. So how was that swim?

[71:17]

Actually it was, if anything, on the verge of too warm. But Thank you for asking. I'll drink this now. Oh, here comes Reverend Hydration. I'm happy about that. He loves to see a well-hydrated sangha.

[72:26]

My nephew is studying to be a doctor. And he says he's going to tell all his patients, have you had enough water? I wanted you to know that I checked with the Chico and it's okay with us if we don't have any Doksana practice discussion on the last day of Sashim. Okay, thank you. So I'll check with the other... Thank you. Thank you. And maybe we could, since you're doing that, since you feel okay about it, if you didn't feel okay about it, I wouldn't ask the Sangha the following question. The question I asked in the Sangha is, is it okay with the Sangha if the practice leaders just sit the last day? You don't get any interviews that day, okay? We're all going to be in this place together, all right? Is that okay? If you have any later reservations, let us know.

[73:33]

So if it's okay with the other practice leaders, the last day we'll all just sit here. Sounds great. Yeah, sounds like nice. We had one day like that, but now we have one at the other end of the session. That's nice. Thank you very much for checking that with yourself and your GICO. Sure. Yes, I'm very interested in this preparation for how it is, how we can understand our worst grief and pain and separation. For me, it all comes down to separation. And it's the pain of birth as well, which we don't talk as much about, but I think it's very similar.

[74:40]

Very similar. Both are very difficult. Yes. But I guess with death, there's the possibility that we're going to be a little more conscious of it. So maybe that's why we talk about death more. How, in that and similar situations, can one take his feelings of separation that are so powerful but completely overwhelming, and make that into an offering? Well, the first step in dealing with the sense of separation is to say, I give this sense of separation with all its difficulties, I make this an offering.

[75:46]

to all beings. Not that they will have separation, but I just, I make it an offering. I give it away. And then we're heading towards a place where we will, after we're calm with the separation, that we look at the separation with this teaching and see that separation is just a conscious construction. It's totally insubstantial other than being a conscious construction. And that brings peace with the separation without eliminating, without moving a particle of dust. Separation still looks just like it does before, but there's peace all around it and freedom. But we start by saying, I wish to give this I wish to make this difficult thing, this great challenge, a gift. I wish my disease to be a gift. I wish the approaching death to be a gift.

[76:50]

So just saying the words. Saying the words for starters. Thinking them and saying them. And then until you feel like, yeah, I really feel that way. And it's joyful. I feel joy now. Not joy about exactly the death, not joy about separation, because it's painful, but joy of giving, even now. Even under these circumstances, I can be generous. Maybe what you're proposing is in the midst of the thing, the overwhelming terror, a person might find the ability to at least just say the words. And that could be like a ceremony of sorts.

[77:54]

Yes, exactly. And the ceremony is a request for a response. too, for assistance and support in making it real and verifying it. Thanks. You're welcome. Thank you for your offering. Since I didn't ask, may I just ask if it's okay for you if the door is open? Is this okay? The door open?

[78:55]

Yes? Could I ask if we could try for the other door to be open, because I can't see you yet. The other one would be better for you? Yeah, because then you're not, there isn't this bright light that's behind you. Okay. Give me a moment. Thank you. See you again. Yeah. Welcome, Abby.

[81:11]

Thank you, Roshi. I wanted to offer a question and my understanding to you of pain to check with you to see if my understanding is clear enough now. And one of the things, one couple of the things that I've learned about pain is that, first of all, it's not personal. So it's part of the human condition. And I find that to be hopeful, actually. The second thing is that I find pain to be instructive in that I find when there is a tendency or desire to have a disassociation from the pain, it means usually that I want the rest of my life to be exactly how it is except this one thing.

[82:14]

And so if I use the pain as sort of like a guiding post to see what other areas in my life or in the situation need to be healed, then I find it to be helpful. So at the same time, however, I don't want to disassociate, right? Because that's not the program that we're signed up for here, actually. All right. So I guess it's the neither being timid nor reckless with the pain. In other words, not being a martyr. I could do this. I could do this. I could do this. And not being too timid. No, no, no. Yeah. Not being... not being too timid or reckless or not being timid or reckless I think is a nice balance act. So we actually want to eventually be able to be really calm with the pain after being kind to it and gentle with it and careful with it, then to be calm with it and then finally to realize

[83:32]

its suchness. And then realizing its suchness heals all the other problems in the world. And so, for example, you had your hand here when you were talking about pain and then you talked about the other parts of your life and healing. It's like the pain is the growing edge of the healing process. It's sometimes hard. Some things in our life need healing, but they aren't calling out in pain right now. Some relationships, for example, they need healing. There's some rift there. But that relationship's not crying out in pain. But there is some pain, maybe. And if we take care of this pain in a compassionate way, in a wise and compassionate way, That caring for this pain, this new, this growing our compassion and wisdom to meet this pain, heals the other relationships too.

[84:39]

Maybe not completely, but starts the healing process of them too. So the pain is like, says, please be kind to this right now. That would be good. And that will heal even more than this pain. This pain is an opportunity to heal the basic problem of duality. I guess perhaps I'm teetering on the edge of wanting to control. I'm trying to understand then the difference, the practical difference, for instance, between being a detective and understanding like, oh, you know, the need or something is calling out for attention and being calm with that attention and trying to figure out what the need is that's being asked for without dissociation of pushing away.

[85:50]

Well, I think one way to put it is you're trying to find out what the need is. That's one way. A slightly different way would be to say you question what the need is. You ask what the need is. So I ask you what the need is, but I'm not necessarily trying to find out what the need is. I'm asking as a gift to you. But if you don't tell me what the need is, I'm not frustrated because I wasn't trying to get the need from you. I was offering you my interest in what the need is. And if you tell me, then you gave it to me. But I wasn't trying to get that gift. I was just saying, what do you need? And you might say, I'm not going to tell you. I say, OK. What do you need? I'm not going to tell you. Okay, what do you need? Oh, well, I need this, I need that. But I don't repeat it for you to give me, I just keep telling you, guess what, I'm a person who'd like to know what you need. But you don't have to give it to me.

[86:52]

And that will be part of taking care of the problem. Thank you. You're welcome. And before you go, I wanted to mention something that you remind me of, and that is someone might say, well, what does all these teachings have to do with, for example, sitting in the zendo? Are these teachings about zazen? And I would say, for me, yes. We're talking about zazen in another way. So the teachings here would be, for example, this is one example. You're here in the room, you've got a body. So the teaching would be take care of your body in the sitting posture. Be kind to your body in the sitting posture. Be gentle with it.

[87:55]

Be welcoming of it moment by moment. Be careful of it. Be vigilant of it. Be patient with it if it's in pain. And finally, calm down with it You could say settle with the body or settle the body. But before you settle the body, pay attention to it. Don't just go and settle the body. Pay attention to the body and settle the body you're attending to. Settle the body you're being kind to. Be kind to the body and settle the body. That's a basic practice opportunity here. I wouldn't say, I would just say, That's a way to practice these teachings in this place which I would say is compatible with the way a Buddha would sit. A Buddha would take care of her body, would be kind to her body, if she had one.

[88:57]

And she would practice tranquility with the body. And how does she practice tranquility with the body? She looks at the body, which she's caring for, and she remembers the mind. She looks at the body, which she's being patient with, and she remembers to focus on the mind. She calms with the body. She settles the body. Once they're settled with the body, then you practice looking at what is the body. When you're caring for the body, you're not actually looking at the body. You're just aware of it and being kind to it. You're not trying to figure out what it is. So through this process, we settle the body. And then once the body's settled, then we observe it. Then we inquire about what it is. So that way of practicing sitting is a kind of a basic way to describe how to apply these teachings to the sitting. You can do the same with the breath. Take care of the breath.

[90:00]

Be kind to the breath. Settle with the breath. And then what is the breath? And then, of course, so on. Okay? Thank you. Yes. What is the relationship between offering reasonable boundaries and being welcoming to threats?

[91:14]

Can I take away reasonable? Hm? What's wrong with reasoning? Nothing. I just think it's a simpler question to say, what is the relationship between offering boundaries and... what's the next part? Being welcoming to perceived threats. Offering boundaries and being welcoming of receiving threats? Received threats. Received threats. What is the relationship, can I change this slightly? What is the relationship between offering boundaries and welcoming threat? Yes, that's the question. Well, again, martial arts. Here I am to meet this person who is coming saying, good afternoon, I'm a threat. I've come to threaten you.

[92:19]

I'm going to throw you across the room, if possible. I'd like to. I think it'd be lots of fun for me. Would you like to play this game with me? And I say, are you ready? Yes, I am. For what? I'm ready for you to do this threat thing. I welcome it. However, I wish to offer a boundary. The boundary is, I would like us to move from where we are, over there, where there are mats which will cushion our falls. Also, I would like you to throw me by grabbing my clothes, which are built... for the purpose of throwing people. They won't rip. And I would like you to put on this kind of clothes so I can work with your clothes in a similar way. I like to put on a combat outfit.

[93:24]

I would also like for us to wear helmets. And the person might say, fine. And the person might just throw you across the room. They might throw you across the room, but if they throw you across the room without, what do you call it, without apparently respecting the boundary which you offered, in that case, I would say, both of you are going to have trouble. It'll make it more difficult to be intimate. But your example was, how about offering a boundary when there's a threat? So I gave the example, there is a threat, and you offer a boundary. And the person maybe doesn't accept it, but the thing was, when you offered it, you became more intimate with them, in my view. Did you also become more vulnerable? No, you did not become more vulnerable.

[94:25]

I wouldn't say that. you're basically vulnerable all the time. I'm basically vulnerable all the time. And because we're vulnerable and because we feel separate from each other, we're afraid, we're agitated because we feel separate. And when we're agitated and afraid, because we're vulnerable, the agitation and fear can hurt us. we can be harmed by our own agitation. Our agitation can make it so we fall down stairs, or spill hot water on our leg, or slip into hatred. So we are vulnerable in general, and we also can be vulnerable in particular to our own state of mind.

[95:28]

Everybody around us is nice but we can hurt ourselves with our own state of mind. Our own state of mind is generally speaking susceptible to unwholesomeness as long as we see others as separate. When we understand, when we give up in our peace with the illusion of separateness, unwholesome states drop away and we're fine. It's not that we become invulnerable it's that we're at peace with being vulnerable. We're free even though we're vulnerable. And then we may still fall down the stairs, but joyfully. And we may die at the bottom of the stairs joyfully. And generations of students may be inspired by the way we fell down the stairs and died. Did you see how she fell? It was so beautiful. She was like, just like He was like ballet, totally unafraid, performing her last great act.

[96:30]

Like Gandhi, when he was shot, said, Ram. He blessed the person shooting him. But again, he was prepared. How was he prepared? He was already saying Ram. He was saying, blessing, bless you, [...] bless you. And then, bless you. But if somebody shoots you, you may not say, oh, what do I do now that I'm shot? Oh, yeah, ROM. So if you're welcoming, welcoming, welcoming, and someone starts to come and says, I'm threatening you, and I say, could I offer you a limit, a boundary? And the person says, no. But anyway, you did your job. You practiced the bodhisattva way when this person came. You welcomed them. You welcomed them and you gave them a gift. You say, I have a gift I can give you. We can become more intimate, threatening friend. And the person says, yeah, I would like to become more intimate with you by throwing you across the room.

[97:34]

You say, yeah, but if you would listen to me, we could even be more intimate. And they may not be up for it. But for you to accept that they're not up for it, again, I would say it's more intimate and you're still vulnerable. but you're more at peace with your vulnerability. And if you get hurt, you'll be more at peace with your hurt because you'll be able to then welcome the hurt, the pain. But there, too, you can be generous with the pain. So we will get tumbled around. Some of the threats that are coming are not going to back off and not going to accept our limit. So we say, go to the doctor, and the doctor says, well, you have cancer. You say, well, could you postpone that message to me? Or you go to the doctor who's done some tests, you say, actually, I don't want to hear the results of the test today. Is that all right? Could I hear it tomorrow? I want to go home and settle some things with my family before you tell me the answer to the test. Doctor may say, OK.

[98:34]

And then you come back. OK, now I'm ready to hear the news. Doctor says, you have cancer. I say, I'm ready for it. I'm ready for this. And my family's ready for this. you know, I talk to them and I said, if I have cancer, can I share this with you? Are you up for supporting me through this? And they say, yes. Okay, now I'm ready to hear. If I go home and I ask, you know, I might have cancer. Are you ready to support this? And they say, no, we don't want you to have cancer. Forget that. Don't talk like that. You know, like certain people, if I talk about that, they say, don't talk about that. I say, okay. So yeah, if you do that, We don't know what the other person will do. The doctor might say, I'm too busy. I can't wait till tomorrow. I'll tell you now. It doesn't mean it's not a control thing. It's a gift. And you're doing the practice of intimacy. When the boundary is apparently not respected.

[99:38]

Yes. You welcome that too. I mean, the Bodhisattva welcomes that. my grandchildren want to put their hand in my mouth, I say, please wash your hands, and they don't do it. I welcome that. It takes a lot of giving. It takes a lot of giving, yeah. Again, it's called job security for giving. No end to it. There's no shortage of it. Endless opportunities for generosity. No end. And it doesn't take a lot of giving. It doesn't take... It's given. Giving, it involves a lot of giving, right? It provides a lot of giving. Our relationship provides a lot of giving. I find when a situation is difficult, threatening, or something, often I have trouble with the methodology of giving. In other words... And so welcome the trouble of the methodology of giving.

[100:41]

I think I failed to understand how to give when I can't conceive of a giver or a receiver or a gift. Right. Most people do, so that's why they do conceive of a giver, receiver, and a gift. Because they can't imagine giving without those three different things separate. So that's like beginner's giving. Beginner's giving is giver, receiver, and gift. As you get into it, Finally, as you really get intimate with the process, you can't find the giver, receiver, and gift. And you can still conceive of it, but you don't, actually. I mean, I shouldn't say you don't, but you're free of the conception of giver, receiver, and gift. Yes, I experienced that in easy situations and neutral situations. Well, good. Difficult situations. If you keep practicing in the easy and neutral ones, and as you get better and better, you'll be able to do it in the difficult ones. Like people play the piano in their living room, usually before they go and do it in front of 3,000 people.

[101:52]

And people practice the violin for a long time before they can practice the violin in front of 3,000 people and have somebody yelling teaching instructions to them while they're playing. But if you practice a lot, if you get enough training at something, you can adjust to the big white wave. So work on practice now with what you can practice with. Some things are too advanced. Accept that. And know that there are bigger challenges ahead, but you're getting ready for them. Someone said, you know, if you're just, you know, from flat out not having been in cold water for a long time or never been in cold water, if someone just dropped you into 40 degree water, you might not be able to accept it. Your body might just sort of say, okay, this is like death. Closed down shop. This is all over here.

[102:56]

No more living here. Turn it off. This is the end. But if you prepare, you can drop somebody in Forty-Three to Go Out Water and they go, cold, let's relax now. Relax and start moving the legs. It's the same with being a Buddha. If you just dropped one of us down in the middle of a Buddha, we would die instantly. Because the Buddha is like totally open to the suffering of the entire world. And if you actually went from where we are now to being like that, we would just like close down. This is it. Buddhism, forget it. If I have to be open to everybody's suffering, everybody's sensitivity, everybody's vulnerability, no way. Let me die. I'd rather die. Yeah. Being Buddha would be... none of us could stand it. We're working up to it by these little tiny practices of bodhisattva training with the idea to eventually be able to be dropped into the heart of Buddha and sit there calmly, joyfully, and beneficently.

[104:07]

But right now, we're not ready for it. But it's okay to notice that there is this possibility ahead of us of much more advanced challenges. Is that still being ourselves? Is the Buddha being ourselves? Totally. It's the same thing. If you were dropped down right now into being your actual self, you just couldn't stand it. Yes, I know. The talk about pain has brought up something for me that has been a challenge and has made me irritated at people and at Zen.

[105:20]

So sometimes when I'm here in the Zen Dome listening to you or by myself listening to my stories, I'm in so much pain I can't stand it. I spent 30 years as a physical therapist and I learned pretty much in that time that it was the other person's pain and I couldn't decide for them, okay, you need a pain pill or that's nothing, you don't need a pain pill. So I learned to be respectful for what the other person was saying. So when I'm in the state, in the zendo, listening to you or by myself, I can't stand it. And the form is to stay. The form is to stay. Stay in the zendo and not run out in the middle of that. Yeah, the form is not to run in the zendo, that's right.

[106:23]

And not to leave during the middle of a period. That's just the form, yes. But, although that's the form, it is given to you, the responsibility, to perform that form. It is your responsibility to perform it. And since it's your responsibility, it's your responsibility to perform it in the way that you think is appropriate. It's your responsibility, not mine. It's not my responsibility for how you perform the form. It's your responsibility. Well, I share with you your responsibility, and I can give you feedback, but it's your responsibility. So if you feel that it would be appropriate to run out of the zendo then it's your responsibility to take care of your feeling that it would be appropriate.

[107:25]

It doesn't mean you do everything that you think, but it means that you take care of and you're kind and gentle with the thought, I think it would be a good idea for me to run out of the zendo. And if you're really kind with that idea, you might actually run out of the zendo. It's possible. There are times when people do run out of the zendo, and it is appropriate. for example, when they have diarrhea or need to vomit? You're making a look... You have a look on your face like... What does that mean, that look on your face right now? Well, I could be vomiting in my brain. No, but I'm saying... I'm just showing you an example where there's a form, but the person feels that it's not appropriate to stay in the room. As a matter of fact, they shouldn't even walk out. They should run out. Now, if you're vomiting, your brain is not necessarily the case that you should leave the room, though. I don't necessarily agree with you. If I'm vomiting in my brain, I don't necessarily think I should leave the room.

[108:28]

Where's the boundary, then? I'm setting a boundary for my pain. Are you talking about vomiting now or pain? Pain in my head. Terrible, crushing sorrow. The boundary of the pain? Well, you could say, I feel the pain is getting so strong... that I think if I left the room and was outside, I think the pain would calm down a little bit. So if you felt that, you might actually, and you might feel like, it's possible that you feel like, I think actually if I got up carefully and quietly, I could walk out of the room and get some relief from this pain. And I feel I need relief from this pain, so I think it's appropriate for me to go out of the room. and then you go out of the room and you may find out, yeah, that actually was a relief. You might be right. It might be like that example I told you about with Temple Grandin, where she likes to be hugged, but she also wants to have some sense that she can end the hug when she's had enough.

[109:37]

So part of your problem might be if you're in pain and you think you cannot leave, That may actually make it harder for you to be gentle and kind to your pain. So maybe you need to know you can leave this room. Even if you have to run, you can do it. You get feedback, of course, later, like, how come you ran out? But you can say, I was in such great pain, I was terrified that it was going to crush me and I had to leave. But now, from now on, you have from me, for the rest of this practice period anyway, you have from me, I'm telling you, if you feel that you're going to actually be hurt by the pain you're feeling and you feel that being outside will give you some relief and make you, you know, and will prevent you from being harmed, you have my support to run out of here. And then afterwards I might say, how did that work? Was it helpful? And you might say, yeah, it was. you might say, the fact that I know I can run out if it gets too bad, the fact that I know I can get out of the water if it gets too hot or gets too cold, the fact that I know I have that permission, now I'm actually willing to go back in the room again.

[110:51]

And when the pain comes again, the fact that I know I can, that it's my responsibility to deal with this pain, and that I know that you support me to deal with it the way I think is appropriate, and even if I think it's appropriate to leave the room, that you support that, It helps me. It doesn't mean I won't leave. It just means it makes it easier to stay. Does that make it easier for you to stay? What I just said? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, that's why I said it. I want you to be able to stay and I want you to know, not that you have control, but that you have support to deal with your pain in the way that you think is best and learn by trial and error. So I've been doing that for 40-some years. I've been having pain in this room and other rooms like it. All over the world. I haven't been to Australia yet. But anyway, I've been... or New Guinea. But anyway, I've been to a lot of places and I've been having pain in all those places.

[111:54]

And I've been dealing with the pain. But I know it's my responsibility and I know that I... can set some limits. I can say, this is enough pain, I think. I'm going to adjust my posture or I'm going to leave the room. So I want you to know that you have that support to be that way too. The Buddha supported me to work with my pain and to not push myself too hard. I have some friends who I practiced with many years ago in the early days of Zen Center, and they pushed themselves really hard and they quit. because they didn't feel like they had any recourse to set some limits on their pain, just to have a boundary of how much pain you feel you can deal with. So if you feel the pain's too strong, but also I want to tell you that sometimes I pushed, a few times I pushed too long, and I found out, oh, that was too much.

[112:59]

I hurt myself. Yeah, I pushed myself too hard a few times. Maybe you have pushed yourself too far a few times. Or maybe you've pushed yourself too far many times. I haven't pushed myself too far many times. But a few times I did. And I hurt myself. However, I didn't get discouraged. I thought, oh, this is feedback. And also a few times I was too easy on myself. I took a break or I shied away from the pain and then later I found out it didn't reduce it. In fact, it got stronger when I shied away from it. I felt certain moral problems with it. So by being too easy on myself and avoiding the pain in the sense that I really could have done well with it, by pushing myself too hard, by learning those mistakes, I've learned something of a middle way. And I found that sometimes I'm uncomfortable and I sit with it and I'm really happy afterwards.

[114:03]

I did. I really wasn't a problem. But that's because, and I can do that because I know I can leave this room. And I can put my leg up and put it back down. I can do that, and I can do it because the Buddhas support me. It's not because I'm in charge. It's been that way since I started. I haven't pushed myself too hard very often, and I haven't pushed myself too easy too often, but I've done quite a bit of both. but just not too often, just often. That's good to know. Yeah. So you have this, you can do this too, so that maybe now you can find a way to be kind and calm with your pain. It makes a big difference. Good. Thank you. You're welcome. And what I said to Pat, I say to all of you. And I've said it before, this isn't the first time I've said it.

[115:04]

And I say to myself, In listening to the talk today, I was reminded of a line from Toni Morrison's book, Beloved. And I'd like to share that line with you and hear your thoughts on it. And contextually, the book, have you read Beloved? No. And actually, it's what I would call a very intimate exploration of the topic of the African diaspora and slavery in this country.

[116:15]

And she explores it through the story of a woman who was a slave who escaped. And was a mother. And gave birth to two children. And in raising the children, she actually did escape. And was in Ohio. It's a true story of a woman who lived in the 1800s. The slave catchers came for her and she killed one of her children and attempted to kill the second child who survived. That's the metaphor. That's the story of exploring this diaspora. So the character's name is Seta, and she's escaping slavery. She was very pregnant, nine months pregnant, and walking in the night through Virginia on bare feet.

[117:22]

And she laid down to rest, and a little white girl came along in a red velvet cape and found her. And she was in great pain. Her feet were very swollen. And the little girl started to massage her feet. And she said, it's going to hurt now. Anything dead coming back to life hurts. And then she found moss, and she wrapped Seth's feet in the moss. And shortly thereafter, Seth again worked. to the child who ended up living. And I just wondered what your thoughts are. That line has stayed with me for 20 years. And I wondered what your thoughts are on that concept of anything dead coming back to life hurts.

[118:25]

Well, I guess my gentle response would be, coming to life hurts. But the part of anything dead coming back to life, I have a doctrinal problem with. Because it's established doctrine in our tradition that you don't come back from life to death. But I think being born is painful. And I agree with that. And dying is painful, unless we're totally free of all attachment. And I also think it's really nice to wrap painful things in moss. It's a good metaphor for what we should be doing with our pain. To gently massage, not to make the pain go away, but to make the pain have a friend, have compassion around it. And every time we're born, that same compassion

[119:31]

would be good to apply. And every time we die, that same compassion would be good to apply. My sense of the metaphor of the feet, or feet, is that they're swollen and numb. It's like a dissociation you're talking about. Yeah, yeah. They're actually alive, but dissociated. It's so painful that the consciousness couldn't be there anymore. It just withdrew. I find it a particularly compelling metaphor, just around this topic of the diaspora, for example. It's like, we're not talking about it, but it's there. And when we start talking about it, we start touching it, it's going to hurt. It's going to hurt because it involves, suffering is there, suffering is there.

[120:40]

Yes, so maybe you could say, if we're dead to the feeling of pain, Like the people already feeling the pain of the diaspora, if we talk about it for them, it won't bring the pain, they already have it. But those of us who have dissociated from it, if we start talking about it, it'll awaken a pain that we've been denying. It's there, as you say. And for those of us who are denying it, when the discussion starts, there'll be an arising of a pain we haven't felt for a while. Those who are already feeling it, they'll say, yeah, let's continue to take care of this pain. I'm glad we're talking about it, because that will wake up those who are dissociated from it, who are numb to it. Numb to it. Slowing in. Yeah. So after the pain medication wears off, after we're not numb anymore, it starts to hurt. And hopefully now the pain isn't so much that we can't stand it.

[121:45]

A couple days earlier, if the pain that would have come then, we wouldn't have been able to stand. But now that we've healed a little bit, or now that the freshness of the wound is healed somewhat, maybe now we can feel the pain. We're working towards that slowly. And we can keep our eyes out for the little white girl with the velvet cape. Yes, yes. Thank you. The director of the Zendo has given the big T sign. So sometimes we follow orders.

[122:42]

@Transcribed_v005
@Text_v005
@Score_87.41