So, like last week, we had a class. It was a day after a big election in this big country. And we didn't talk about it in the class that I... There was another event that happened earlier in the day that one of the people in the class was out in the water and... needed a lot of help to get out of the water but he got out and came to class and he's still here. And then kind of nearby this class is that there's a practice period going on here at Green Gulch and today two of the people that are in this practice period announced that they'll be leaving or that they left. And In the practice period, at the beginning of the practice period, people kind of sit together as a kind of ritual expression of the commitment to do the practice period.

[01:19]

And then if anyone leaves, it's kind of a major thing for all the people in that group. I think that part of what's going on here is a number of people here and other places at Green Gulch are challenged to make this big change right now. So I wanted to let the people who are not in the practice period know about that. So we sometimes speak of a container for a container for a process of practicing together in a Sangha. A container with the community and also a container for the student and the teacher that they create somehow a container in which they can have experiences together

[02:26]

And even when things get really intense, they can sometimes stay together through the intensity because they've worked on this, making this container. So the practice period is a container, but it somehow didn't hold the two of the people. They kind of came out of the container There was an attempt to get them back in, but apparently so far they've gone out of the container. But that makes the other people in the container wonder, you know, is it going to break? Who's going to be next? People sometimes think. When there's just two people in the making, just a student and a teacher, if one of them goes out, it's like, of course, a much bigger deal. When there's a lot of people, when one goes out, maybe the container can go on.

[03:32]

But if one person jumps out of a two-person relationship, it's kind of like hard to imagine the container going on, but it's possible that one of them could keep holding it. until the other one came back and entered again. So we told a story we've been looking at about... Here's a story about a story. The story about the story is that there's a story about Bodhidharma coming from India and going to China because as the story goes he thought the people in china would be able a great vehicle of the bodhisattvas so he went there to transmit this this vehicle this this way of practice to them and at one point he met the emperor of the liang dynasty his name emperor and they met and the emperor already an initiated

[04:44]

practitioner. He already had made a great effort to practice and Bodhidharma came to try to make a container to transmit the teaching which the emperor had not yet received. But somehow Bodhidharma left. One of the main teachings that I feel Bodhidharma gave the Emperor was his teaching that the highest meaning of the holy truths is vast emptiness, no holy. He gave that teaching to the Emperor And then he left.

[05:46]

But did the container break? Was the container made? I'm wondering about that. And then Bodhidharma traveled from the imperial compound and went to a place called Little Forest, Shaolin, and sat there and faced the wall And I'm wondering, you know, what was he doing while he was sitting there all those years? Was he meditating on the highest meaning of the holy truths? Was he meditating all the time on vast emptiness, no holy? Was he taking care of the container so that beings could enter and receive the Buddha mind seal?

[07:05]

Finally, a student did come more than one, but one in particular came and he gave the Buddha Mine Seal to that student and maybe to some others also. But I'm wondering, you know, did he hold the container for the emperor? Is the container, did he hold the container for all the generations, the 1500 years of generations of Zen students, did he hold the container for all of them? And I wonder, am I

[08:13]

Am I accepting the responsibility or am I sharing the responsibility? I wonder that about myself. Am I taking care of this container? I remembered I said I would. Take care of this container. and not let it be lost. So I'm actually trying to take care of the Bodhidharma's container that he tried to build there in China a long time ago. And before all the Buddha ancestors, I think, make a practice place, a practice place, a place to practice. a place of enlightenment. They all did that.

[09:15]

They said they all did that and they all promised to do that. And now today, here we are and we all actually, excuse me, many of us really felt like we were trying to make a container here at Green Gulch and then some people left. So we're wondering, should we continue? to make a place for people to practice? Do we wish to do that? Even if everybody leaves, do we still wish to take care of it? Even if everybody seems to leave? Yeah. Even if everybody says they don't want to take care of the container, do we still want to say, okay, I hear you, and I'll hold the container for you in case you ever want to? Thank you for holding it for me.

[10:24]

You can join me. I don't particularly want to hold it by myself. You can accept the responsibility. You can be partners in this if you want to. And if you don't, I promise to hold it for you until you feel like you do. I completely accept that, but I'm still going to hold it for you because I promised. and I'm happy to keep working on it, but with the human mind, sometimes one can get disoriented. If close members walk out and say bye-bye, that can be quite disturbing, and then you may get disoriented about what you really want to do, what responsibilities you really do want to take care of. So I would actually like to make a container to take care of the teaching, Vast Emptiness, No Holy, for anybody who wants to meditate on that.

[11:51]

That that simple teaching supposedly was given 1500 years ago and that simple teaching has been reiterated all those years in many, many practice places, often called Zen centers or Zen temples. In Korea, in Japan, in Vietnam, now in the United States, in Canada, in Mexico, South America, and now in Europe, and back to India now too. Temples in India, where they're trying to make a container to take care of all these teachings. This simple one we've been looking at, simple practice, simple, simple teaching. Fast emptiness to know wholly.

[12:55]

Right now I don't feel distracted or disoriented particularly. I feel pretty focused on this issue, on this teaching and on making a place for all of us to meditate on it. I feel like I'm in the right place, namely here with you. And I wish I won't be distracted, but if I am, I hope I'm honest about it. Kind to that distraction. Kind to me, but also kind to the distraction. So that the distraction will be in the container. And if it's in the container, it can be transformed into strengthening the container.

[14:25]

So I wonder, and I've said it before, I wonder if this practice place where the Buddha Dharma can be studied and meditated on and realized. And I wonder if you have any questions about how to do that. Did you have a question? It comes to me to say, vast, empty, no practice period. Vast emptiness, no practice period. And then the other thing that comes to me to say is that I'm not in the practice period, and I am very aware of the practice period at considerable distance from him. So it's a wonderful feeling. You're aware of taking care of the practice period as a non-resident. Mm-hmm.

[15:35]

And vast emptiness, no practice period. And vast emptiness, no practice period that you're taking care of. Thank you. Yes. How do we meditate on vast emptiness? Well, One way is you say to yourself, perhaps quietly, vast emptiness, no holy. As you're walking around Green Gulch, in this class, you say, in this class, this class is a particularly appropriate place to say it. And you can say it out loud, which you just did, and you can also think it every moment. One story, innumerable Zen practitioners, male and female, over 15 centuries have been saying this to themselves in various languages.

[16:51]

They've been thinking about this and talking to their friends and teachers about it for 1,500 years. They actually think about it. That's one way to practice with it. Think about it. And think about it in the container where you're, you know, where you're focused and relaxed with it. It's possible. Where you feel inspired to meditate on the instruction that Bodhidharma gave to the Emperor of China. And therefore, now, to all of us that that was his, in some sense, one of his. He didn't have that many teachings. And the teachings he had were pretty short, pretty simple. And this is one of the shortest and simplest. And then also he told you how to give you additional instruction of who is his teaching.

[17:59]

That also is a further instruction about how to meditate on a vast emptiness no holy is also. Who is that? Who is that vast emptiness? Don't know. That's an instruction to how to meditate on it. Practice don't know with it. Have you done that by any chance already? No. Not intentionally. Not intentionally. Well, I do it intentionally. During this class, I've been doing it intentionally. That's one of the ways I take care of the container, is to think about the teaching that Bodhidharma gave the emperor. the this one of our ancestors is not in our direct lineage but he's part of the conditions for having a zen center in the united states is this wonderful person named yogin senzaki comment on this case is this case doesn't really need any comment it's obvious right it's the case is sitting right in front of you don't there's not much to say about it just

[19:34]

Just meditate on it. There it is. Isn't it? Just pay attention to vast emptiness, no holy. Let it enter you and enter it. So, but that means that you're not thinking, you're not so much thinking about Bodhidharma a long time ago, although I mentioned this thing about 1500 years. You're meditating on it now or not. So he says we're not talking about some old teaching, we're talking about how that teaching is functioning in your life today. So forgive me for mentioning that people have been meditating on this for a long time. But I think every generation, they were saying the same thing. Let's meditate on it now.

[20:37]

Let's not think about other people meditating. Shall we read another story? No. Does your name know you? Oh. Oh. I'm not exactly even used to that name. I don't know. The next case in this collection is sometimes called the ultimate path is not

[21:59]

The story goes something like this. Zhaozhou, teaching his assembly, said, the ultimate path is without difficulty. Avoid picking and choosing. And then he says, as soon as there are words spoken, quotes, this is picking and choosing. This is clarity, quote, unquote. And then he says, this old monk does not abide within clarity.

[23:34]

So sometimes people translate clarity as not picking and choosing. But it actually does say, you know, clarity doesn't say not picking and choosing, but So there's... He says, if you avoid that, the path's easy. And if you get involved in it, the path is hard. And then there is clarity. And he says, I don't abide in clarity. He didn't mention that he doesn't abide in picking a Jew. He says he doesn't abide in clarity. And then he says something like, do you still preserve anything or not? At that time, a certain monk asked, since you do not abide in clarity, what do you

[24:59]

And Zhaozhou replied, I don't know either. And the monk says, since you don't know, teacher, why do you say that you do not abide in clarity? And Zhaozhou says, it's enough to ask about the matter. bow and withdraw. The expression makes me think you understood his final response. In other words, you asked a question, that's enough, you can leave. So, it looks like Jaojo doesn't abide in the situation in which the Great Way is not difficult.

[26:21]

And he says, do you preserve anything or not? In other words, Do you understand what I'm saying? Or are you coming along with me on this? On this not abiding in purity? Can you follow me on that? On the path of not abiding in purity? And the monk comes forward and says... Since you do not abide within purity, what do you take care of? What do you preserve? And Jaja says, I don't know either. And the monk says, if you don't know either, why do you nevertheless say that you don't abide with impurity?"

[27:38]

And Giorgio says, thank you, that's enough. I thought this was further instruction about how to meditate on the holy. The ultimate way is not difficult if you don't get into picking and choosing.

[28:56]

And the teacher says, I don't abide in not picking and choosing. So picking and choosing makes it hard, but the teacher then doesn't abide in not picking and choosing. But the teacher teaches that and teaches that and teaches that and doesn't abide in anything. And if the teacher doesn't abide in anything, how can he take care of anything? What? Yeah. If he doesn't abide in anything, what does he take care of? Because, of course, you know, if you're taking care of non-abiding, that you don't abide in taking care of non-abiding.

[30:07]

So it's pretty subtle. In other words, vast emptiness, no holy. There's no holy thing here called non-abiding and called the great way. And of course, most people don't think that's holy either. It just, you know, makes things difficult, but maybe that, maybe that not picking and choosing and then cruising down the great way, maybe that's holy, but no, Perhaps you can think of lots of situations in daily life where you could apply these teachings. Perhaps you could think of that.

[31:09]

All the different situations in daily life when you could apply these teachings. And then you might wonder, well, do I? I could, but do I? Are they being applied? They could, but are they being applied? So, I think you can notice picking and choosing. What's it teaching about that? Well, that makes sense. But the teacher doesn't abide in not doing that. So to find this very subtle place called the Great Way, Not picking and choosing makes it easy, but if you hold on to not picking and choosing, that's not like Jojo. And he's not telling you to not abide in purity.

[32:12]

He's not telling you to abide in not picking and choosing. He just says he doesn't. And then question if he doesn't He also didn't say, I don't pick and choose. He didn't say that either. He just said, I don't abide. If you want to ask me, do I pick and choose? Maybe I say, yeah, sometimes. If you ask him, do you abide in that? I would guess he said, I don't abide in picking and choosing. But he also doesn't abide in not picking and choosing. What does he take care of? And he doesn't say, I don't take care of anything. He says, I don't know either. You take care of something? I don't know either. Anyway, this guy, Jojo, makes a big effort and lives to be 120 years old. And his teaching... they say that tongue when you know he was a great radiant teacher who says sparking tongue says I don't know either and that's enough for today you can leave now is that enough for tonight

[33:42]

I don't expect you to know what you're going to be taking care of from now on. But I do want you to take care of something. I do. But I don't particularly want you to take care of something. If you do, I totally accept that. I want to totally accept that. But I don't want to abide in totally accepting it. I just want to totally accept it. But I do ask you these questions and I do want you to take care of the great... I do want you to take care of Zhao Zhou's teaching and Bodhidharma's teaching. I do. I want you to take care of the teaching of these people who don't abide in anything. And it's pretty hard to take... So even they do not know how. I mean, they don't know. They know how, they just don't know.

[34:49]

So this is the Bodhisattva Avalokiteshvara's way. Listening to the world, maybe almost all the time, and then each moment, Last emptiness, no holy. Each moment, not abiding in purity. Each moment, no either. Each moment, taking care of the, of Lakhiteshvara's great way. I just saw Sarah Tasker's face and I thought, and now we have another appearance of bed bugs in the guest house.

[36:05]

So now we have to deal with these bed bugs. How can you stay focused on the practice when you take care of the bed bugs? It's really hard. I watched the people conversing about it today, trying to discuss how to take care of the situation. Avalokiteshvara Bodhisattva. The best house of Green Gulch Farm, which has bed bugs in it. It's easy if you don't pick and choose. And abiding and not picking and choosing goes away. I thought how challenging this is for the guest program.

[37:12]

How to take care of the situation of the guests and the bed bugs. Yes? Were you at City Center years ago when they had, I think, was it cockroaches? No, I wasn't. I don't think you were, but... Yeah. They had lots of cockroaches. I have to decide what to do. Yeah. Kind of like a... I just want a cat kind of thing, you know, like, how to deal with it. Do you remember hearing the story? I do. I remember hearing about it. It seems like that's the story. Yes. Simone? Would you mind speaking for a moment about, because you said the verb, it's not dialogue, they're saying, what do you preserve?

[38:24]

And then you go to, how do you take care of this? And I was just curious if you had any extra juice around even the original text of it. preserve or and why you like just why you like to say to take care of because one of the translations is uh do you follow me you know to follow along um this is what i'm saying this is what i'm this is how i'm going the way i'm going I don't abide in clarity. Do you understand that? Do you agree with me? Are you doing this? Or are you taking care of something else? What are you taking care of? This is what I'm working on, is I told you about this easy way to go on the great path. You won't have any difficulty if you don't pick and choose.

[39:29]

But I don't abide in not picking and choosing. So do you agree with me or do you take care of something else? So I can go either way. Do you agree with me and follow the way I'm going? Do you take care of what I'm taking care of, which is not abiding in clarity, not abiding in the easy way? Or do you have some other way you're taking care of it? So then the monk says, well, if you don't take care of... The monk probably doesn't think he's taking care of picking and choosing. He doesn't need to do that. Everybody else is taking care of that for him. A lot of people are anyway. He's not even taking care of purity. He's not abiding there. So if he doesn't... If the monk says, if you don't abide there, what are you preserving? What's your way? If your way is not abiding in purity, what's your way?

[40:36]

What are you taking care of? And he says, I don't know either. He doesn't even know how he doesn't abide in this easy way. And he also probably doesn't know how he does abide. It's kind of inconceivable how we do abide in picking and choosing, even though Actually, how we do that is actually as much a mystery as how he doesn't abide in purity, in clarity, in easiness. Okay? I appreciate the space between those metaphors of abiding and then taking care of. How does Zhaozhou's way or the easy way, and I think of those as at least two separate things.

[41:47]

What? Zhaozhou's way? Zhaozhou's way and the great way or the easy way. No, it's like the great way is easy if you don't pick and choose. The easy way is no picking and choosing. But the great way isn't the same as not picking and choosing. It's just that if you don't pick and choose, you won't have any problems. But that's not the same as the great way. So Giorgio says, and I don't abide in not picking and choosing. How do these relate to freedom from suffering? Hmm? How do they relate to freedom from suffering? The ultimate way is freedom from suffering. Okay? So, if you want freedom from suffering, you'll be free of suffering. But Zhaozhou doesn't do it that way.

[42:50]

What would happen if you were not picking and choosing? You would be irrelevant. to the people who are picking and choosing. But you don't have to do picking and choosing to help people who are picking and choosing. You can just not abide in not picking and choosing. Barbara? I was going to say, it reminds me of the vows we chant every day, the vows which are open-ended conceivable and mysterious, and yet I feel with great heart that there is... I'm abiding, but not in anything in particular, or at least longing to... You're longing to abide? Or you are abiding, and you long for something else? I'm just saying that holding the container, but you're not abiding in anything in those vows, because it's inconceivable and inarticulatable, even as I can't say that word.

[44:06]

It's a vow with no object. It's an open-ended vowing. So that feels to me like abiding, non-abiding. It might be just non-abiding. But what you were saying, with our everyday experience, we chant this every day with a great heart. And so part of your everyday experience is you do this chant, and then while you're doing the chant, you can look at whether your dog goes away while you're doing the chant. And then when you're doing the chant of talking to somebody, about something or have your conversation, you can also see if you can apply Jiao Jiao's way to that conversation. The vows actually I think are, what do you call it, one can do the vows and still kind of like be abiding while you're doing them.

[45:11]

And you can be abiding in picking and choosing. Like, for example, you can do the vows and say, do them with this person. Or I'd rather be someplace else to do these vows. So you can do the vows and be doing picking and choosing. And also you can do picking and choosing without abiding in it. And you can also do the vows without picking and choosing. He was talking about Ramana Maharshi who seems to be able to practice with people without picking and choosing. It looks like it. People thought that he was like not picking and choosing. That's what some people said. But maybe he wasn't abiding and not picking and choosing. So Jojo, you might see Jojo, he might not be picking and choosing either. Some people might say, God, Jojo doesn't pick and choose. If you see some stories about him, you could say, it looks like he's not picking and choosing. If you look at his stories, you could come up with that.

[46:18]

He's really kind of a strange person. And maybe he's not picking and choosing, but he's saying, I don't abide in not picking and choosing. Even when I'm not picking and choosing, I don't abide in it. And he could pick and choose, if that would be helpful. So in his story and on the previous one, how does a person act who practices a vast emptiness, no holy? How do they act? Somebody who doesn't abide in purity. So this is a story about Jojo. This is how he acted, and he's a guy who does not abide in clarity. Yes. How do you not abide in picking and choosing?

[47:20]

I don't know that either. It seems to me that we pick and choose no matter what in our daily lives. It seems that way to you. I think it is that way. So, thinking that it's that way is picking and choosing, right? Well, I just think my brain is structured that way. Right, you think that way. Do you think your brain is also structured that you could not... And I say that if I say I don't want to pick and choose, I'm still picking and choosing. Yeah, but what if you didn't say either? So, if it enters my mind, what do I do with that? If what enters your mind? Picking and choosing? How do I not abide there?

[48:32]

You don't abide there. You don't abide in picking and choosing. Is that what you want to know about? No, I want to know how do I not abide? In picking and choosing or period? In picking and choosing. How do you not abide in it? How do you not abide in picking and choosing? Yes. When you pick it on, okay, you let it be. Completely. Completely. And then you're not abiding in picking and choosing. But picking and choosing is going on. Abiding in picking and choosing is what? Is when picking and choosing is going on, you don't allow it. Completely. You get involved in it. You abide in it.

[49:37]

But jiao jiao is the one of abiding and not picking and choosing. If there's not picking and choosing, which can happen, he does the same thing with that. Most people are abiding in picking and choosing. If he sees picking and choosing, he doesn't abide in it. It's okay to pick and choose. It's just not okay to abide in it. Is that the teaching? That is the teaching. And so he doesn't abide in not picking and choosing. He doesn't abide in clarity. He doesn't abide in picking and choosing either. But not abiding in picking and choosing is a kind of clarity. And he doesn't abide there either. And can you take care of things? People say, well, can you take care of... practice because then you might say well how could I do certain things which I feel like I'm responsible to take care of in the state of not abiding and picking and choosing and not abiding in clarity how can I take care of the bed bugs and his answer to that is he said that's what he's up to and then you want to ask him how he does it or what is he taking care of and he says I don't know that either

[51:08]

which is another example of the subtle form of not abiding and not abiding and not abiding. This is weeding out clarity that you might attach to. Yes? Wouldn't our hearts abide in safety? Maybe. I don't know. I cannot testify. If you're asking me to be on the jury for Parhats, I think you will disqualify me. I was just wondering if... I hear it, yeah. ...that he's a Bodhisattva. Pardon? ...that he's teaching that he'd be a Bodhisattva, maybe. You mean you think he might be making a veiled indictment?

[52:11]

What is an awkward? What's the definition? The definition of a... It's somebody who... A what? They're... They're... They're free of delusion. and they're able to enter nirvana. Buddha was an arhat, among other things. Being an arhat does not contradict being a Buddha, but it does kind of contradict, it creates certain tensions with bodhisattvas. But bodhisattvas are on the path to Buddhahood. So their relationship with arhatship is something that they don't want to abide in arhatship. They don't despise arhatship.

[53:19]

I vow to not despise anybody or anything. Right? That's our vow. I vow to not despise anything. And particularly nirvana. Yes? If they are free of delusion, would that be clarity? Yes. But is anybody going to accuse them of abiding in that clarity? And maybe they don't abide in that clarity. Maybe they just receive the clarity and give it away. Because, you know, they're free. Because it's kind of like, it's kind of diluted to something called clarity.

[54:22]

So I think maybe they have really good understanding, they're wonderful sages. But Jaojo doesn't abide in clarity. So if clarity comes to Jiaojiao, it could happen to him too, you know, clarity could come to him. Arhat, the specter would float into his life, but he wouldn't abide there, he says. Yes, Timo? It seems to me that abiding in not picking and choosing is sort of a paradox, because abiding is sort of picking. It does seem kind of paradoxical, doesn't it? Yeah. So maybe you're not going to do that anymore, huh? Because you don't want to be paradoxical. Yes?

[55:22]

Is abiding in the same as clinging? Yeah, pretty much the same. It's related to being stuck, sunk into, attached. Barbara and then Neil, you? Yes? Is your name Barbara? No, I'm Barbara. What's your name? My name is Susan. Ah, Susan. Susan? Is your last name Barbara? Barbara? Barbara I know I know I just thought there was two well anyway Susan I was wondering about the relationship between not abiding and don't know they seem to be very intimate that

[56:27]

Yeah, I think bodhidharmas don't know, I think, is the non-abiding of bodhidharma. Yes. Good evening. I got confused again in that I thought I'd heard... Is your name Confusion? Could be right now. Ah, yeah. I know you're Confusion. So I thought I'd heard here, while I've been here, that Arhats were attached to Nirvana and wanted to go there and stay there. And that was a sort of significant difference between Arhats and Buddhas because they didn't want to come back and save all beings. Have I got that wrong? I wouldn't go so far. I just don't think I would say Arhats are attached to Nirvana. They just go there. And the place they go is a place that you can't attach to.

[57:30]

But they don't leave it. They don't make a vow to leave it. They don't make a vow to leave it, right. Bodhisattvas are like, I don't want to go to Nirvana and stay, so maybe I shouldn't go at all, just in case I lose my resolve. bodhisattvas think bodhisattvas think they might get attached but they don't go around accusing other people of getting attached to nirvana kind of like we are now discussing people getting attached to nirvana okay but i'm i'm not saying that our hearts attached to nirvana It's possible on the earlier stage of sainthood, you know, when you first enter sainthood, there's four stages. When you first enter, you might, and you're no longer attached to the self of a person, you might still be kind of like, okay, but I wish I could get nirvana and hold on to it.

[58:32]

But I think arhats are beyond that. They're pretty highly evolved. So I don't think they attach to nirvana, but they do not have the vow of, I will not hold on to that. I'll only touch it, and if it's useful to people, I'll come and show it to them. But I won't hold on to it, and I won't hold on to the bliss of it, but I might get into the bliss of it. But, you know, not too close, because I might weaken, because I'm into being weak with everybody else. I'm not going to the strength of nirvana and staying there. But I'm not saying the arhats do go there and stay there. I'm not saying they do. I'm saying, but bodhisattvas vow not to. But bodhisattvas might slip too, because what could be finer than to be in nirvana in the morning?

[59:33]

Is there leaving nirvana, I guess, another aspect of that question? You don't really leave it, no. You just let go of it. You forsake it. You forsake the pleasure of it. But you don't really leave it. Nirvana is not someplace you can get away from. But it is something you might try to hold on to. And bodhisattvas do not want to hold on to it. They just... They can attain it, but they don't want to hold on to it. Is there... And I'm not saying any arhats do. I know some people would like to hold on to it, but those aren't arhats, I don't think. Those are lesser developed people who actually... I don't think arhats are holding on to anything.

[60:47]

But they don't necessarily have that vow to re-enter holding on. Maybe that would be helpful. And it is helpful. So picking and choosing can be helpful as an opportunity to not abide there. Okay. Can you lose that once you've seen it? Lose what? Lose... Okay. A lot of hands on this side, so I'm going to turn away from this side over to the... Yes. Thank you. It seems to me that there is more substance in the story. So, teaching in the second update, towards the end, where he says, if you don't abide there, what do you take care of?

[61:50]

And he says, don't know. And then he asks, if you don't know, why do you say you don't abide? And the response of the judge was like that. Right. That's very important for you. Maybe. Maybe. Which you? Huh? Yeah. Which you? I don't know which you. But anyway, it's enough that you make this point. You can bow and go home. Thank you. Good. Good monk. Anything else tonight? Yes. Christina. Yes. Do Bodhisattvas cling to their vows? Do they what? Do they cling to their vows?

[62:51]

They vow not to. But in fact, in fact, they can even vow, they can make these vows, but they still have to make these vows even though they can cling to them. But they can cling to the vow. Yes. But the vows that they cling to are necessary in order to stop clinging to those vows. But they do sometimes cling to them. I find it shocking that they're not supposed to cling to these wonderful vows. But they're not supposed to. Bodhisattvas are not supposed to cling to these vows, and they do sometimes. But at the moment they cling, they're kind of like not bodhisattvas at that time. ...care of the vows and noticing when they're clinging and keep taking the vows and noticing when they're clinging, they will become bodhisattvas and they won't cling to their vows and they'll keep taking care of and they'll preserve the vows without clinging to them.

[63:52]

But usually they do spend some time clinging to the vows in their path. So at that point, at that moment, they're not bodhisattvas. Nobody can tell who the bodhisattvas are except for the Buddhas. Nobody can tell if somebody is clinging to their vows except the Buddha. But the Buddhas who can tell, say that bodhisattvas are clinging to their vows at that time are not bodhisattvas. Diamond Sutra 4C. Diamond Sutra 4C. Diamond Sutra 4C. Okay. And only a Buddha can see. Is that enough for tonight?

[64:56]

Grace, is that enough? Okay. Yes. Yes. That part where he says, what are you preserving? Yes. He says, I don't know either. Do you think it's, is he preserving anything or is it an act of preservation? So question one was, is he preserving anything? And then what's the next point? Or is it this act of preservation? Good point. Is there something preserved or is it just the act of preserving? I'm just wondering if there's even the act of preserving. Yeah, I don't know either. I like your question, thank you very much.

[66:02]

And I don't know either. Is it sort of like practice, like faith, when you engage in practice, you really don't know what you're doing? I mean, you don't, you can't say, oh, well, I am saving all beings. You can't know that, but it's your intention. Yeah, you can think that, and then we're not supposed to abide in that thought. You can think you're not saving all beings and not abide in that either. So the question is, do you have faith in the teaching of vast emptiness, no holy? Teaching, I don't know either. Do you have faith in the teaching of not abiding in the most excellent situation? Do you have faith in the teaching of non-abiding? That's what we're trying to learn. And we're also, this is for people who are trying to learn this, and we can't learn this unless we vow. And then we can fall into abiding in that.

[67:04]

So these vows are necessary in order to be able to dare to not abide. Even though we can kind of vows. So the faith is not just faith that these vows are good, but faith in not abiding in them. Is that like real? Is that like a clarity you're not going to abide in? Or is that an unclarity? You're not going to buy them? Yeah. Wow, you guys are hot here tonight. Barbara and Ben, yeah. Okay, but you're not roommates, right? Barbara. Okay, so in vast emptiness, Really, how could you actually abide in anything?

[68:07]

And I'm not trying to sound like a smart aleck or something, but actually, could you abide in anything, ever? In the real, honest to good, you cannot abide, and then you also can't abide in that. Right. So you can't abide. Right. But even that, I don't think you can even do that. It's always evaporating. Yeah, but you can abide in the evaporating. You're free. It's a concept. You can abide in a concept. But even a concept actually is always evaporating. Yeah, right. Yeah, right. Ben? Is the container to keep us from abiding in the container? Yeah.

[69:10]

And the container to keep us from abiding. But, you know, because we go someplace where we can abide sometimes. Someplace where we can get something. You know, like rather than being in this place where we don't we don't get anything. We'd like to go someplace where we can. Or we are getting something that we'd rather not get. Is there a possibility when you might want to get out of the container? The container is not... We pretend there's inside and outside, right? We pretend that? It's not necessary to pretend that. The container doesn't have to have... We don't have to try to get out of it or stay in it. We don't have to buy into that. But we are trying to make a practice place. Yes, go ahead.

[70:21]

Was that sufficient? That was just a shake of the head. It wasn't an overture to a comment. Just a head. Yes? Is a synonym for container a world? Good question. I would say the container is not a world. However, the container would allow for world-making. The container is the practice place where you can look at worlds being made and how they function. Like a lot of people are in worlds but they're not in the container to study the world with the Buddha and the Sangha. They don't know the teachings of the world. We're trying to make a container where people will listen to the teachings about worlds.

[71:25]

Where worlds can be dropped within the container. We need a new container, not just another world around the world. We want a container to study worlds that are creating. A container for becoming free of worlds. A container is not another world. Thank you for the question. Worlds are a place of abiding. But Jaojo doesn't abide in no world. He helps people who have worlds. And he doesn't know what he's doing. He's guided by all beings. Does he use a container?

[72:30]

Does he use a container? He does. He does use a container. A container without abiding. A container without... He uses a container to realize non-abiding. He has a container there where he can have all these conversations with the other monks. in which they study non-abiding, and where he takes care of the way without knowing what it is that he's caring for, which allows also knowing. Not knowing doesn't exclude anything. He does work with a container, I say, and that's how he's able to do this practice. he was made into the bodhisattva in a container, and he continues to take care of the container which his bodhisattva life was made in.

[73:44]

He keeps taking care of it. This story I see as a story of the working of the container, of the working of the practice place. So when that monk got up and talked to Ashu about this question, he was actually helping maintain the container. Yeah, he was. He was helping maintain it and he was enjoying its support. So I hope we all do that, that we enjoy the support of our practice and we care for the support of our practice. out of appreciation for what's supporting our practice. That we all share that responsibility in the Dharma. And we consider whether we're ready to we consider whether we're ready or whether we want to get ready.

[74:51]

And some of you have told me you don't yet want to accept the responsibility for taking care of the container. If you don't feel ready to I accept if you don't feel ready to accept the responsibility to take care of the container. I am really, I vow to be patient. If you don't yet feel ready, you want to accept that responsibility. It's really, I really want to be patient with that. And I don't, I enjoy talking to you even if you're not yet ready to accept the responsibility. Now, is that enough?

[75:39]

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