Was there a diversity gathering this morning? No. No? Okay. I wanted to... I want to talk about traditional practice issues, but also there's a number of community issues I'd like to bring up. I bring up the community issues first, and maybe there'll be time to deal with the other things later. The community issues are, the first one is the consideration about having a day where we experience practicing together without doing service. recitation of scriptures and so on, three times a day like we do.

[01:11]

Those three services. There's also meals and so on, but after getting lots of feedback and meeting with the practice committee, what I would suggest for your consideration is that we have a day where we just don't, we just... What do you call it? We don't have those three services that we usually have before meals. I would hesitate this time to make lots of other changes like having all meals silent and not doing the rogue chant and not doing... everything else that you do. But just start with this one change, just for the experience of what it's like to have a day without those three services. And in the morning time, we would either do walking or bowing between zazen and service, allowing time for physical transition from sitting

[02:21]

silently, to sitting while eating, some movement there. Also allowing time for the servers to leave and get ready to serve breakfast. And at lunch, probably the same, some walking or following. And at dinner, I guess we can just... I don't know. I haven't thought about what to do with it. We just come ten minutes later or what. But I would suggest this... major but limited change at this time as an experiment. And I want to also say that I'm not doing this because people have resistance to these practices. I don't feel like that what we do here is when people resist, we get rid of the thing they're resisting. But the resistance, when it was expressed, I wanted to respond to that resistance, not by trying to make it go away, because I respect the resistance.

[03:29]

I think it's really helpful and beautiful and alive. You wouldn't be resisting these things if you weren't trapped in this valley. You just, you know, go to the movies or whatever. But here, because you're so committed to the practice, these things really mean something to you, and I think that's great. I'm just responding to this to be flexible and show you that I'm not attached to these forms, which I'm not. And also just to have a different experience. Just like coming here for practice period is a different experience. Now you can have a different experience. So that's what I would suggest for starters. And I wanted to also say that I'm a little concerned about making too many changes because I'm I'm really impressed by how powerful the container is, but also when you make little changes in it, what a big effect it can have on the psyche of the people. So I don't want to be very careful to make this change, but that's what I would suggest, to do that.

[04:36]

And then we could possibly do other experiments, too. That's what I would suggest. And one more thing is that I think Kosho and Diane would kind of like to experience it, so I would wait until they came back. Otherwise, we could do it tomorrow or next day. So we'll wait until they come back. That's all right. So any feedback on that at this time? And other than silence, being understood is OK. Yes? We don't do evening service. We could have like a 25-minute zazen period for that. That's a nice idea. Just about when the Zen show starts. Or a 20-minute period. Because if it's a 25-minute period, you have to get there earlier. Yeah, that's a nice idea. To have a 20-minute period of zazen or something before dinner.

[05:39]

Any other responses? Yes? Just on that suggestion, can there be some movement space between zazen and ding? Yeah, we could have 20 minutes zazen and a three-hour break. Five minutes. Or five minutes, yeah, of handshaking. That was exactly what I was thinking. That was what you had in mind, too? Exactly. Amazing. Yes? Yes? There may have been discussion that I just wasn't at, but I'm just curious what the – what is the – where are all these requests – what are they coming from that you're asking of us? One day, I think during Sashen, two people one day expressed resistance to these – to that particular form. And I thought, oh, maybe some other people are too. So I addressed resistance. I gave a little resistance comment. I talked about resistance a little bit in the talk, didn't I?

[06:44]

And then I also mentioned, well, we could try that. Not because, again, to avoid the resistance, but just people see what that's like, just for that information. That's the one story of how it went. And I also, if I can parenthetically mention, I've told many people who've told me that they resist service, that when I first came to Zen Center I came to practice sitting meditation with a group and with a teacher. That's what I came for. I thought that was Zen training as far as I knew. I didn't know anything about it, I didn't hear about service, I just heard about the sitting. And back in Minnesota I was practicing sitting by myself. and wanted help and encouragement in the practice of sitting, which I thought was the practice that you do to become a bodhisattva, which is what I wanted to do. I didn't really particularly want to be a sitter. I wanted to be like these bodhisattvas.

[07:48]

So that's what I thought the practice was. I came to Zen Center, and then I found out they had service. which was kind of interesting because they had these cards, you know, these cards over at Sokoji Temple, which had Chinese on it, and underneath the Chinese was a Romanized version of it with English, so you could actually, it was Chinese class that they had there. I thought that was nice. But still, I wasn't that interested in service. So in the morning, I'd go to two periods of Zazen, and then when service time happened, I'd just go across the street and read about Zen in my apartment, across the street, where a lot of other Zen students lived. And that was fine, no problem. And still people do that, they go to zazen and leave at service or whatever, go to work, things like that, in the city. And then, but during sesshin, that doesn't work so well because you get zazen, service, and you eat food. Stay, you know.

[08:52]

During sesshin, I didn't leave for service, I stayed for service. Still didn't think it was very interesting. And then I thought, well, maybe it might be interesting to help do service, to learn to hit the drum and the bells and stuff like that. So I started doing that. And I got more interested in the service when I was part of the orchestra. And then I sort of got more and more into the service, as you may have noticed. But I wasn't really interested in it. That's not what I came for. I wasn't interested in it. I'd rather do other things. It wasn't painful like Zazen. It didn't have all those advantages. It was easy, but not particularly interesting. I had other things I'd rather do. So, there it is. Kazan? What about the rogue chant? I would suggest, for now, the rogue chant and maybe the evening chant and the meal chants. Just make them the same. We could also try another day with even less

[09:54]

chanting, but let's start with this. This is one big change. I think it's enough for now. Yes? You said a day, so are you envisioning some feedback evaluation as to what happens after that? Right, so let's do a day pretty soon, and I welcome your feedback, and you get feedback to each other and talk about it during times when we're usually talking, which are highly limited, as you know. Yes. Yeah, we'll just figure that out in detail. We'll figure out whether we'll all do bowing or all do walking or what. It might be difficult to do walking and bowing at the same time. So... That's what I thought too, man. So that might be possible. Yeah, we might be able to do it that way.

[10:56]

Would you like to do it that way? Well, we could do it in the part where the servers aren't. So you couldn't walk all the way around because the servers are setting up. Maybe you could do it... But, you know, I'll let you know what the Lord tells me. What, Bernard, are you behind it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was thinking, the four sessions that I had mentioned of Mike in the show, that the chanting didn't protect for reasons, and there was a lot of resistance coming up for me with that. But I didn't go on to say that I wanted to stop. I just stopped there, because I can't see the value and the benefits of all these. And so I was wondering if these three people actually expressed so, or was it just kind of implied that they wanted not to have them for it?

[11:58]

One person said resistance to forms and ceremonies. One person was thinking of this precept about forms and ceremonies, which he wishes to receive. I've just accidentally disclosed who it is possibly. But anyway, and that he has resistance to the forms of ceremonies. He didn't say specifically service. I don't remember. But another person said specifically all that talking is, you know, all those words is kind of hard for her. So that's what I heard. But I know other people also have resistance to service, and I... I sometimes see people during service, they look like they're resisting it. Well, that's what I notice about myself. I notice ways that do resist. Yeah. So it doesn't necessarily request anything. I understand. Okay, thank you. Yeah, some people during service, they're not going like this. You know, they're kind of...

[13:00]

I was changing my tones, and my partner finally came over. Kicked you? Of course. But I was actually kind of emulating all the different tones in the room, so I wasn't really kind of going too far. I was wanting to get down into the river. I was getting near the wake-up bell in the river. I'll get up on my hands, count my tears. I know what you mean, yeah. Yes. I just thought I would experience this with the plan. Blanche sometimes does these five-day machines without any chanting, and they're just about like, without lecture, without focus on it. Without lecture and focus on that, that was a little bit too hard for me. But there was something really nice about not actually having to use your vocal cords for many hours at a time. Sometimes I feel that there's some chi build-up during the thought and then chanting, and kind of moving it around.

[14:14]

I think it's a wonderful idea. One thing I've also noticed is that in the upper garden, there are these rows between the beds that are really nice sort of pinyin things. And if we did want to do walking meditation, maybe there could be a track out there that would be in the way of the servers. So then we could just keep it in flow if it was half an hour long, instead of having to turn around. I don't know what people would do in the end hour. OK, thanks for that. We could have a labyrinth. Just to mention the other side, I mean, you also said the other day that really, really liking service is also resistance. Correct. You wanted to make that point? Yeah, just because my side is getting a little too much attention. Yes, liking service can be a resistance too.

[15:17]

Just to follow up on what Courtney said, I also had noticed reluctance to speak at all during Sashim, specifically during Sashim, and I noticed that when I came up to speak once during, like I don't have much voice, if this experiment is a success, then for me it would be nice during Sashim, not just to experiment with not . There is something to when you don't speak that, you know, what happens to that energy. Mm-hmm. Thank you. Let's see, Judith. The other morning during Sashi service, I almost was very strong. I almost lay down when my head on my buckle. And I'm one who likes service a lot, but for many years I felt an innervation in service.

[16:30]

Something about our... I don't know if we're not connected to the horror. I don't know what happens in the champion, but... I feel that energy from his audience just coming out of me during service. And so I'm interested in the experiment, as I said to you, because I also appreciate the deep silence. But I hope, I long for instruction. You get so much around all this. how to bring our energy forward in service. Because there are times, like personal day, evening, it is magnificent. We are all there. I don't know if it's because we're rested or well fed or what. We're all so there. For the chanting? I don't know. At the time, there are other times I notice when we're really very presently pleading with our breath and our sound.

[17:34]

And there's such potential with the nurturing. OK. Yes. I was wondering if you could comment some more on what you mean by, I consider this too much as a form of resistance as well. Well, actually liking it at all is a form of resistance. Okay. Disliking it at all is a form of resistance. So like when you meet something like service or a person, liking and disliking are adding to the meeting. It's a kind of resistance to the, of the meeting, you know. Just to meet somebody without adding or subtracting or seeking anything, that's, you know, resistance. But to get into liking and disliking somebody or something, it's a kind of resistance to the actuality of the situation. It's a distraction. And some people get way into liking it, and that bothers people.

[18:40]

And then some people get into a way of not liking it, and that bothers the person. their energy gets all wrought up or all depressed. Does that make sense? Yes. Yes. And the other people who haven't spoken, go ahead. Well, I just noticed that a number of times people spoke of service as speaking, and I think chanting and speaking are not the same. Uh-huh, okay. I'm just wondering about that. Right. So there may be too much speech, but that doesn't necessarily mean there's too much chanting. Yeah, right. So what Judith was saying and what Courtney and Eric are relating to, that maybe if we were... If we found another way of chanting that was like, we might feel differently about service. But it wasn't, you know, that it was, it wasn't, it was encouraging the spirit and energy of our practice better.

[19:46]

So maybe service is kind of weak for us, that we could develop a good deal. But for now, let's get rid of it. So, I visited Shasta and he was in an attendant service there, and even though we don't know how they do, it was like a Cambodian chant style chanting, which is very different to ours, which are beautiful, you know, it sounds like both English or Christian chanting. And I was kind of very thinking with that, and I asked something like that, so I got distracted by how beautiful it sounded, you know, that very monotonous chanting. And she said, well, you know, that could happen, but really, you know, you're either present or you're not present. And you may say, well, it's just another person being present with no threat, breathing in or breathing out. Breathing out is having to be . But I don't find it defeating my energy. I find it actually keeping energy moving. So I have a different thing of thought with that threat.

[20:47]

There's a question of being present with that threat. Yeah. I just thought, popped up while you were talking, that it would be nice if we took a day off, and the next day we had more more energy for the chanting when we do it. It would be sometimes all the fasting helps you to develop an appetite. Was there any other comments? Yes. Well, I was just brought something to... I was wondering why when we do the echoes and we chant, why they're so slow, speaking of energy and captivating and stuff. Oh, Buddha... Is there a reason that we do that and might we have a little more energy if it was a little more punch? I think that Tassajara I don't know how fast you're talking about saying Mahaprajnaparamita.

[21:55]

I don't know how hard you say it. Oh, I'm not good. Mahaprajnaparamita. I just think paramita particularly is one word. So the way you said it is... I don't know. I didn't get the language. I've never... I'm just wondering why we do it so... Pasahara does it faster than any other place like Zen Center. Sure, from my perspective. But I think it may not just be... Because the way you did it, it didn't sound that fast. It sounded okay to me, the way you just said it. I didn't think it was that much faster. I think we're talking about your yearning for a kind of energy level that seems good or appropriate, and we're searching for it. But we can chant things fast and not have a tooth. But I do feel like you're calling out for something to be realized in the chanting.

[23:03]

And so there's a great opportunity, of course, to look at. Yes? I would say two things. One, I really appreciate the spirit of experimentation that you're bringing up. Just trying for a day and seeing how it is. Yes. I hope that when we do that, that everybody goes into it with the spirit of experimentation, you know, just that, oh, we're just going to try this, and so that there is a stupid wholeheartedness about just trying it. I think a lot of the issues that people have about service, it's kind of like being on the freeway when you're driving along at 75 an hour, and somebody comes in at 45, and another person's running 90, and it's different. paces or different energy levels and so it kind of finding your way it's a little bit can be difficult when everyone's on the same page it's you know just seems to be more on running of course um that's not say also about the experimentation it might be interesting to experiment the other way do you know what i mean like in sort of reducing

[24:06]

forms of ceremonies to ramp up forms of ceremonies. You know, and just like where, you know, a day where people really get a lot of instruction in forms of ceremonies, you know, and see what that's like for a day. I think that that's part of the response I'm hearing here. It's not so much ramp up forms of ceremonies, but could we do our forms of ceremonies more wholeheartedly, more energetically, more You know, people are calling for that. I hear that in his response. They can be amazingly wonderful sometimes, right? Sometimes they're just fabulous. Yes. To Gary's point. Yes. I've brought that up at Green Gulch a couple of times, especially that laugh line.

[25:09]

And one thing I was told, and now that I'm a priest, it seems to be true, that laugh line, priests are putting out their Zagos, and sometimes the Doshi is kind of waiting for that process to happen, and the Doan is kind of throwing out that bell, waiting until everybody... And I think that has an effect particularly on that laugh line. Maybe. So I, too, would like a quicker pace for that. And I'm just bringing up that I think there's other things happening that's affecting particularly that line. Right. And also, when chanting echoes in general, there's a sense of extending the breath. Sometimes I hear people chanting, the kokyos chanting, the ekkos, and they're just talking. They sound like they're talking more. So clipping off the voice at the end of the words rather than letting the voice carry it.

[26:12]

And that's not necessarily, it may be slower, but it's also more of a breath-extending gesture. And I remember one time, Kadagiri Roshi, after he left Zen Center and came back, And I asked him if he had any suggestions to present some, and he said, yeah, at the end of the Sandokai, extend the last vowel longer. There was some, that was his only suggestion he had. There's some feeling, you know, when you end a chant, you know, like if you say, maha-prajna-paramita, Like that, it's something, you know, something, I don't know what. Prajnaparamita. The way you just did it, it didn't have that, to me, it didn't have that feeling of kind of dying with each held syllable, like the energy there throughout the whole thing.

[27:22]

What I hear more often, it's kind of like, we're lulling ourselves. Or, you know, Bodhisvaha. You know, when Bodhisvaha And svaha may mean welcome, but it's welcome, welcome Bodhi. So if we mix slow with, if slow get put together with drain, we don't like slow. If slow goes with energy and enthusiasm, it doesn't, it may be slow, but it doesn't bother us. So this is, you know, this is a challenge for us. It's turning into quite a discussion here. I had this question rolling around in my head for a while. I guess my difficulty with service is not so much the chanting, but a lot of the concepts that are in the content of the book.

[28:30]

One of the biggest concepts that seems to jump out at me is that of merit. And I really wonder what the merit of service is. And particularly when we offer, what are we doing when we're offering merit to celestial beings and et cetera. Yeah, I'm really curious about how you see them. Well, one way of saying the echo is whatever merit has developed during this chanting, we dedicate to so-and-so. it doesn't mean that there really is any merit. Because it looks like the chanting is going on top so hard, there's not much more to be given away here.

[29:41]

But if there is any merit, if there is any energy, then it's a very central teaching or idea in Mahayana Buddhism If you have money or energy or any positive feeling in a situation that we don't hold it, that we give it away, we turn it over, there's that feeling of dedicating any positive energy or positive material that's been developed through our practice, and you give it away for these various purposes. And it can be celestial beings, but mostly it's the Buddhas, bodhisattvas, and sentient beings. That's mostly what it does. And the Buddhas don't need this stuff, OK? But part of the, this is a big topic.

[30:45]

I'm going to stop, please. But part of the also teaching is that when you make an offering to a Buddha, it's very meritorious. So if you develop merit, positive energy in a group, in chanting, then it's considered meritorious for us to recite the teachings, to say the teachings and for us to hear the teachings and learn the teachings and remember the teachings, having it to see and listen to, to recite, to remember. This is considered to be meritorious for us to be familiar with these texts. And then to give that merit to the Buddha increases the merit considerably. And then after you have more merit because you gave the merit to the Buddhas, then at the end you take all the merit and give it to sentient beings who need it. So there is this idea of us giving away our spiritual energy, not holding it. I don't mean to make anything substantial, but I had been in ceremonies where I felt a palpable energy arising from the ceremony.

[31:52]

And one time I remember in particular, I said, what are we going to do with this? You can't just walk out of the practice place with all this energy. And then the echo came and said, oh, great. I don't want to have this energy. Too much. Sometimes, in practice periods, it happens, like the vissasim, often, that a great positive energy develops among the people practicing together. A lot of goodwill. Like, look at the energy that was flowing around Tathagala yesterday morning. You know? Did you feel it? You know, a lot of energy, a lot of goodwill, and a lot of noise. But there was a lot of energy there. But the subject energy that developed during Sushina, we're constantly giving it away throughout the Sushina. So that's a little bit about it. But if you look at the vows of Samantabhadra,

[32:57]

He vows to serve Buddhas, to serve sentient beings, to make offerings to Buddhas, to beg Buddhas to stay in the world, to teach, to practice confession and repentance, to appreciate all beings, and to practice dedication. At the end, to practice dedication is a merit of all these practices. I'm just giving a little bit about the merit and dedication, but it's a key ingredient in the bodhisattva path of giving away any positive energy you're involved in creating by yourself or with other people, not to hold on to it. Is that enough for now? Okay. I have some other topics, if that's enough on this. I appreciate this. It's very interesting. I didn't expect all this information about service, Very good, thank you. The next topic is that someone raised the issue of confidentiality in terms of what people are expressing here in the group.

[34:11]

And my suggestion is that we do not have confidentiality for what happens in the group. I feel fine about confidentiality in Dzogchen. If you tell me something in Dzogchen, I'm not going to tell other people you said it. Or if you tell me something you did in Dzogchen, I'm not going to tell other people you said it or that you did it. One time someone confessed to me that they stole a lot of money from Zen Center and I didn't tell Zen Center and I got in big trouble for it. However, I did tell the person after a while to tell Zen Center. Sometimes people tell me things that they do, and I suggest that they tell people. But so far, I've never felt the need to tell people. Now, if someone... People have not come to me and told me that they commit suicide, for example. But people have told me other things, and I've suggested in some cases that they confess to some other people, but I've never told on them.

[35:19]

So I think there's confidentiality for me, in dog-son situation. But I think I would recommend that we don't have confidentiality for our group events. And if confidentiality for group events is possible, I would be happy to consider it. But my experience is it is not possible at Zen Center to have confidentiality in group settings. So when you speak here, I think basically you're speaking not just to these people in this valley, but eventually potentially, to a much larger audience. So if you're not ready to shout it from the highest hill, then what are you willing to shout from the highest hill? I think it's good to confess to everybody anyway. So what can you confess, not just to these dear people, but to the whole world? Because that's, I think, what you're confessing to, really. I think anything that's been confessed so far is it may get out.

[36:23]

It's already sent out. It's already sent out? I'm sorry. Yeah, I can send it to you, too. Yeah. You can tell me to keep it confidential. No, I don't think it's going to work. OK. So they sent ACD, too. OK. And part of my experience at Zen Center is that if you say a situation is confidential, and then it leaks, it's much more trouble than if it just leaks. Or not leaks, but just goes out. Because when somebody hears, when you tell somebody that you're telling them something confidential, and then they hear it, and then they tell someone else... and then tell someone else, then the person who hears it can't find out who said it or whether it's true. And it can get distorted, but you can't find out because you're not supposed to have heard this.

[37:29]

So you can't go ask. So then you hear that so-and-so called you such-and-such. But because the person who told you was confidential, you can't go back and you can't ask the person if they really said that about you or if they're really doing that. thing that you heard, because you weren't supposed to have heard, and you don't want to get the person in trouble who told you. So all this strange stuff happens at Zen Center. It's very unhealthy, this confidentiality in our group. And I really recommend that we don't try to practice it anymore, because I think it's kind of a little bit of a sickness here at Zen Center that people are telling things that are supposed to be confidential, and people are hearing things, and then they don't feel that they can find out. It feels creepy, you know? So if somebody can tell you something confidential, say, I want to hear it. If you can't tell everybody, go tell me. I want to hear it.

[38:32]

Because, you know, not to mention I'm the third person, you know, if I'm way down, and all these people are, like, telling people, and they can't find out. So that's why I think just forget it. But doksan is different. It is possible for me not to tell people what you say. I don't have too much trouble with that, actually. I may lose my mind if I get older. Where did I hear that? Is that in doksan? I'm dying around here. So I may be asked to stop doing those things. Or just that people have been told, if you tell him anything, he's going to tell people. He can't remember anymore. So I'm sorry that some of you said things that you thought weren't going to get out of Tassajara.

[39:40]

And maybe they won't. Some of the things you said, maybe they won't get our text letter. It's possible. But if we make them confidential, they will. This is confidential. I'm not telling anybody but you. You're such a cool person. Yes. I think that I agree with you. I've had experience in another Zen Center and everything always gets around. But I think it would be helpful before, like at the beginning, to tell people. Yeah. Sorry I didn't say at the beginning. Because I, for example, first time I ever gave a way-seeking mind talk, I thought it was confidential. And, you know, two years later, I got it back in some distorted fashion that that was wrong. Somebody had to check something out.

[40:41]

And I was very shocked and hurt. So I really did believe that this very personal information was being shared with a finite number. So I'm sorry that we didn't make that clear at the beginning, that I didn't bring this up at the beginning. And I'm sorry. I don't know whether it's not really the guideline, but it's just as an awareness. It could be not a guideline exactly, but just an awareness. And you should know that blah, blah. Yes? I wanted to tell Jerry that they are a guideline. I mean, it's actually not a guideline. We have three precepts about right speech. And they allow me to make a confidentiality agreement because we all have a great deal of precepts. Great. Yes. All of them, exactly. Right. If I say Levon, we just put it up, feet open, and Jonathan will put you in that.

[41:43]

Okay, is that enough on that? Yes? I was just wondering if you think that the non-confidentiality thing is a good idea in, like, crew meetings or something like that. Non-confidentiality in crew meetings? Yeah. Yeah, I think it's a good idea in crew meetings. I think it seems like the dog sign situation is working pretty well. But the crew meetings, I think, is getting too big already. And the third kind of community thing is that I made a commitment to do another retreat the day after tomorrow at Mount Madonna.

[42:44]

And I have no further commitments after that outside Tazar. But I wanted to tell you that I would like to go and do that since I committed to it. And I thought maybe of Sonia going with me. And she wants to, is that right? And I talked with the practice committee, and they thought that would be OK. And I wanted to say to you that I've heard that some of you have been somewhat uncomfortable when I've been leaving. And some of you, in your discomfort, have become angry at me, which I I completely accept that that might happen. And I have a pill you can take. Anyway, I just wanted to say that. I invite your feedback on my going out during this practice period and your feedback about that way of doing the practice period.

[43:58]

But I'm continuing to keep in touch with some practitioners outside of here during the practice period. I welcome your feedback on that during this practice period and for future practice periods. Yes. As an experiment, this is my Tengri practice, so I'm not sure if this is normal or not. But I'm wondering if the practice there, if you ever tried staying in for the whole practice period without going out, or if it's normal. Have I ever done the whole one without going out? As a practice leader. When I was tablet in the practice periods, I only left to go to Zen center meetings. Um, and then I would sometimes, uh, I would sometimes, like, have anybody sometimes be gone a week or even two weeks to go to meetings up in San Francisco or Green Gulch when I was abbot.

[44:59]

But I don't think, as a practice leader, I might never, it may never have been the case that I stayed the whole practice period. And I don't, and I, I don't know if anybody who led the practice period ever stayed the whole practice period. I don't know if that ever happened. Maybe it did. I don't remember. I don't know if Suzuki Roshi ever stayed the whole practice period. But he might have. It's possible. I think, actually, Tatsugami Roshi, my second practice period was led by Tatsugami Roshi. I think he may not have left it all again the whole practice period. It's possible. Since he didn't have any Zen center responsibilities, and he had no other teaching responsibilities in America. And yeah, so he might have stayed the whole time during his practice periods. After Siddhartha Maharishi died, Richard Baker, the next abbot, really left a lot. So since after him, I think that the leaders of the practice periods were here considerably more than he was.

[46:06]

And they felt really good about, well, we're really here a lot. But still, I don't know. Can you think of anybody that stayed the whole time unless they never left? Blanche. Blanche might have never left. Yeah. Blanche might have. So Blanche might have stayed the whole time. And Mel also. Huh? He didn't leave at all. So there may be some. And then after I was out of it, I developed these teaching responsibilities or venues outside Zen Center. I don't usually, I don't think I've left Tosara practice period to teach other parts of Zen Center. I don't think I did that. I can remember like leave here and go to Sashin in the city or something. I didn't, but I left for meetings. Okay? That's my sense of the history. Yes? I definitely feel there is a different feeling when you're gone.

[47:11]

And I find it very interesting. So for me it's a practice opportunity to see, oh, can I keep the practice up in the same way myself? How does it feel? Why is it different? It's actually interesting. Some people find it interesting. That's it. Yeah. I have a comment about that, but I'll let people speak first before I make my comments. Yes? I'm having a lot of space. I wanted to check out if I heard you say a month ago that you wanted to let us know that you are planning to leave three times during this practice period. I heard you say it, so it changed. I was wondering how you feel about the change. From three to four? Five. Five? Oh, the Steve Stuckey thing.

[48:21]

He wanted to meet with me. I added that. I didn't know about that at the beginning. About the communication about it. That you leave is fine. I wonder about the communication about it. I understand what you're saying. What? The leaving is fine. You can leave forever. Yes. The communication about it, that's what I wonder about. He told me to tell everyone. Oh, okay. Okay. Yes? I knew you were leaving because I get your schedule on email, but I guess the suggestion from some feedback from people is they might have signed up for the practice period and didn't know that you would be leaving. So maybe that could just be on the... Yeah, I thought that too. Just on the thing, the practice leader will leave sometimes. That could come with the application. Yes, that's true. I think that would be a good idea. And that would be a good point, yeah. Yes? I would say that over the past few years, some practices go for a longer period of time.

[49:24]

And we've gone a couple of times, but they've been for a really short time. So it hasn't felt like it's as big of an impact as when some people were away for two weeks. And then it's, again, it's also a different interest to me. This practice period, I think I said that before, I did short trips, which is kind of inefficient in certain ways, but I intended to take these short, basically weekend trips. We're all weekends except for the Steve Stuckey weekend trips and coming back just to see how that works. So you can think about whether that's better if you have feedback from you whether it's better to go for a week, including two weekends. Like if I had two weekend retreats, to go to one and stay up and do a second one, not come back in between. Yes? First of all, you're being gone for a more shorter period.

[50:26]

I like that better than you being gone longer period, even though it might be harder on you. It's much harder on me. And using more gas. And using more gas, which is harder on me. Because I actually pump the exhaust right back into the car to feel the suffering of this thing. Yeah. I just want to speak on behalf of the people out there. I practice with you in Sweden. I feel very happy to sort of lend you out to people. I mean, a lot of people probably have, but I've seen your skill with people who maybe are just sitting for the first time and how it opens, how there's an opening that happens, and I feel I feel really happy that you're able to go out and connect with all these diverse people in the world, because that brings about more practice. Yeah. Thank you.

[51:29]

To do three months practice period, it's hard to do that and still take care of the requests, which I feel pulling. Yes. This is my fourth practice period, and everyone that has led a practice period, the first three, they all left. So I think it's pretty normal. I've also appreciated the short practice. But actually what I've appreciated the most is that when you are there, I wish I had two bodies. Or six bodies. Yes, there's another one. Yes?

[52:30]

I was just going to say the same thing there. If you're not there for a day or two, it's not a big disruption. And if you were gone, what comes up today is you're headed to the existing trip. It would have been me and the practice today. OK. All right. Well, it sounds like most people are recommending the short trips rather than longer trips. Yes? I realized what I didn't say when I said my thing earlier was that I wanted to say that I really appreciate your presence here. So I notice when you're gone, but even more so I notice when you're back and you're here, and I thank you for your presence. Thank you. On the point of communication, I think the only time that it really affected me was the morning we had a priest meeting with you, and we were in there for an hour and a half, and you never told us you were leaving that day. And that particular occasion, I felt this sense of, like, we were there with you all the time, and we didn't know you were leaving.

[53:32]

We might have had a different I intended to tell you that during the time that you were talking so much I couldn't get away with it. I was intending to mention it. But I did, I did ask Carolyn to say later in the day. Yeah, that was it. And she did. And then there was a short sign after that, did I tell the people in that group that I was leaving? Yes, yes. I intended to tell both of those intimate gatherings, but I forgot, so. And so my story I want to tell you about my first practice period. I came here, you know, like in January 1969, and it was Mel's first practice period too. I don't know if it was Catherine's first practice period, but Mel and mine's first practice period. We came down here to practice with our teacher, but our teacher had what was called an Asian flu, and so he He couldn't come to the beginning of the practice period, but we thought when he was feeling better, he would come.

[54:38]

And there was a resident priest named Colmencino, wonderful, wonderful person, but he was having heavy culture shock. So he was like in cabin nine, I believe, or the next one to it. And that's where he was. He only came out just a few times, like maybe four times during his tax period. And every time he came out, it was delightful to see him. He was such a good guy. And one time, actually, I was staying with the old Cabin 14, and... Anyway, I was down there in the lower part of Tofsar Avenue, and I looked up the road and I saw Suzuki Roshi standing on the bridge.

[55:45]

But it was Kobuchino Roshi. You know, nothing against him, but he looked like Suzuki Roshi. He came up from a distance. So it was very nice to see him. And, you know, whenever he came to the Zendo, it was very nice. So basically it was us kids. Mel wasn't such a kid, but I was just 24, and he was like, he was 38. And just us kids down here, you know. And even Kojina was a kid. We were here by ourselves the whole practice. 38 of us. And... It was just, you know, it was this fabulous experience. We had a hard time. Nobody teaching us how to be nice to each other. So we weren't. We did go to the zender court a bit, actually. And the chanting was like people, just on the verge of killing each other.

[57:05]

People hated the way each other chatted, you know. We did service without a priest. Somehow, I can't remember how we did it, but we did service without a priest. And we had to, you know... And it wasn't very cold at practice grade because it rained every day. That was the most... affected by rain practice period that we've had here. And we never missed a meal. We never didn't have three bowls to eat from. But what was in the three bowls became very, very simple. And we also got very dark in this end because we gradually ran out of kerosene. Yeah, the robe was out for almost the whole practice period. That never really got opened.

[58:07]

I think it opened for like a day one time. We got some stuff in. But basically, the robe was out the whole time. And actually, Suzuki Roshi and our supposed shiso also didn't come. But Suzuki Rachi and the supposed, the proposed shiso came actually to Tatsuhara, came to Tatsuhara, came to where the road was out and went back home. So he actually was feeling well enough to come, but it was just, they just couldn't bring themselves to, you know, and we didn't know that they were coming even, I think, because the telephone didn't work either, right? So we were down here with nothing but each other and the rain. And our teacher came, but went back. We heard later. And at the end of the practice period, Kadagiri Roshi came to Levit Sashin. And I think he came over the Tony Trail because I remember going in the dark across, you know, up there, you know, and across the river, going through the river, helping him come through the high river to Levit Sashin.

[59:16]

And... Mel and I had a number of adventures together. We went out on snowshoes, and then we came back from Moreo Seco, crossing Church Creek, and we almost lost Mel, you know, because we were going in high, you know, it's very high water. And we threw a rope across and used a rope to get across, and he almost lost the rope and got taken to Salinas. So anyway, it was a great practice period to learn to practice together without a teacher, just these kids, basically. Really young people. The oldest person to practice with, I think, was Kashi Fangis, 40 years old. There might have been somebody older than her, but I'll ask her. She didn't seem old, but everybody else just about was.

[60:20]

Most everybody else was in their 20s. And yeah, it was great. We really learned a lot about ourselves. So you do learn a lot without the teacher, and then having teachers come and go adds another dimension. It's interesting. Yes, were there any Dharma talks? I think possibly Kovenchino Sensei did give a Dharma talk, maybe one, or I think maybe one. And when Kadagiri Roshi came, he gave Dharma talks during Sashin. There was Sashin at the end, so we had regular seven-day Sashin, pretty much a normal situation, and had Shosan ceremony at the end. And yeah, that was more familiar. And that was nice. Anyway, it was really a wonderful practice day.

[61:26]

And this is Duke in a different way. Now it's time for the kitchen to dine. And so we could conclude and go to the Zendo. Joan hasn't rung the bell yet. She's happy. And, pardon? You had some practice points. Pardon? You had some practice points. I have big, tiny practice points. But I thought maybe I could have a class again tomorrow if that's OK. And I could do these extremely important practice points. It's nothing that you haven't heard before, just the same story in a very emphatic and unavoidably acceptable form. Did you approve? Okay, I'll give you the clue. If the kitchen can wait just a moment.

[62:28]

The starting point is the Buddha ancestor zazen, the zazen of Buddha ancestors, okay, is not just seated meditation. It's not just the practice of jhana. The Buddha ancestor zazen is nothing less than the practice realization of Buddha. Does that sound familiar? The zazen of the Buddhas is nothing less than the practice realization of the Buddhas. The zazen I teach is practicing wholeheartedly in the midst of delusion and enlightenment, leaping beyond both delusion and enlightenment.

[63:29]

The zazen I teach is not limited to something we say has nothing to do with sitting or lying down, or any posture. The zazen of the Buddha is not limited to any posture, and can be realized in any posture. It is simply the dharmic gate of reposing bliss, totally culminated in liking it. If you want to practice, the way of the Buddhas and ancestors. If you want to be the same as the Buddhas and ancestors, how must we practice? Give up seeking and give up discriminating between Buddhas and sentient beings. Give up discriminating between your present state and the state you wish to realize.

[64:37]

To live giving up that distinction. giving up that discrimination, to be that way in this world, is the meditation of the Buddha. And the two things which follow from that or relate to that I'll bring up tomorrow. One is, well then why do all this sitting? If the practice of the Buddhists, if the Samadhi of the Buddhists can be practiced in any posture, what's the reason for sitting so much? So tomorrow we'll talk about that. And the other thing is the logic of practice enlightenment and the logic of, I don't know what, the logic of, oh, the logic of,

[65:41]

practicing zazen in order to attain enlightenment. And then when you attain enlightenment, you don't need to practice it anymore, that logic. I'd like to talk to you about those two things tomorrow, maybe. But I'd like the kitchen to be able to be participating, and we seem to have to go. So can we stop now and go do this thing, which we can't quite see why we have to do it? And I'm really glad you were able to stay, Joan. It's nice. Is that right to stop now? Yes.

[66:22]

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