The question has been raised, something like, on one side, if we sentient beings are circumscribed by only cognition, if the world we see surrounding us is only mind, how can we verify whether we understand that or anything? And how can we communicate with each other, communicate with others who are similarly encircled by cognition? And not only are we encircled by cognition, but the type of cognition we're encircled by is a cognition which appears as a world which we're separated from.

[01:12]

We live in a cognition that appears as a world full of beings who are not intimate with us. Meditating on this teaching in a state of concentration is proposed as a path to realizing the truth of this teaching and not being caught by what the teaching is pointing to, namely the misleading nature of our cognitions. By studying the teaching that our cognitions mislead us, that our cognitions present a non-intimate world, we stop believing the non-intimate appearance and realize the reality of intimacy, the freedom of intimacy. But how can we verify it?

[02:16]

We could just be dreaming that we understood intimacy. And how can we communicate with others who are similarly enclosed. So one is, how can we communicate? And the other is, how can we verify? First, how can we verify? We verify by living together. We verify by sitting together and walking together and having breakfast together.

[03:22]

one of our ancestors, whose name we chant, Fuyo Dokai, he studied with Tosu Gisei. In Chinese, he's Chinese, and I'm touched to understand that he was born almost exactly 900 years before me. So I have a connection to him in a way. And his Chinese name is Furong Daokai. And his teacher in Chinese, his teacher's name is Touzi Yijing, Yijing. So he was his attendant. And he said to his teacher, the ideas and words of the Buddha ancestors are everyday rice and tea.

[04:58]

Usually people insert, although in the original it just says, the ideas and words of the Buddha ancestors are everyday rice and tea. They usually add in everyday drinking tea and eating rice. But I like that the original just says rice, tea and rice. Is there anything else that the Buddha ancestors have Any other words besides eating rice and drinking tea, do they have any other words to help people, to teach people? And the teacher says, you tell me, does the emperor in his own house

[06:08]

does his activity of ruling, do his decrees depend on the authority of the ancient emperors? And when Daokai was about to speak, Tojo covered his mouth with the whisk. and said, you already received 30 blows. As soon as you started to think of being here, you already received 30 blows. Daukai realized intimacy.

[07:16]

and did prostrations. The teacher Yijing said, the teacher Tozu said, What did you understand? And Dao Kai started to leave. The teacher said, Acharya, wait a minute.

[08:20]

And Dalkai covered his ears and left. In the house of the Buddha ancestors, tea and rice are everyday activity. Like here. In this house, tea and rice are everyday activities. This tea and rice has been transmitted over many years and is present right now.

[09:27]

Thus, Buddha ancestors' vital activity of tea and rice comes to us. I guess the word I should use is concrete. the situation is concrete. We have tea and rice in this place. And the tea and rice we have has been transmitted to us, and this is the activity of Buddha ancestors. This is how they, on a daily basis, verify the understanding, by having tea together and eating rice together. Having tea together is, for them, verification.

[10:35]

When they speak, when they give talks, for them, this is verification. And for them, it's just like having tea and rice. Formal ceremonies for us here are like tea and rice. For me, having tea and rice is like a formal ceremony. Cleaning the meditation hall. for me, is a formal ceremony of verification that has been transmitted to us. Buddha ancestors have cleaning the meditation hall.

[11:38]

Their everyday activity is like cleaning the meditation hall. They speak in the meditation hall. They sit in the meditation hall so that the meditation hall can be cleaned up after them. The meditation hall is cleaned up so the Buddha ancestors can practice in the meditation hall. The ground is swept. This is the vital activity of Buddha ancestors. And all this is mere concept. If I accept this, I can have lunch.

[13:12]

And this lunch has been transmitted to us as Buddha's vital activity. and its mere concept. It's like a painting of Buddha. The Buddha's activity is to do a painting of Buddha, to pretend to be Buddha by eating rice and drinking tea. I told a story about Guishan and his two main disciples, Yangshan and Xiangyan.

[14:32]

Xiangyan said, a painted rice cake does not satisfy hunger. But Dogen says, only painted rice cakes can satisfy hunger. And hunger is a painting of hunger. This is mind-only teaching. Only a painted Buddha can satisfy our yearning for Buddha. Our yearning for Buddha is yearning for a painted Buddha.

[15:32]

How can there be verification? Let's have lunch. Not now. Later. according to the schedule. Having a schedule is actually, some historians might say they didn't have schedules back in the old days. This is a recent invention. How can we communicate? One theory that's proposed is that we can communicate because we think in quite similar ways. Our karma is similar, primarily because we speak language.

[16:48]

And then we have these different kinds of language, but basically Because we can speak languages, we do. And when we do, the mental activity that is involved and the verbal activity and physical activity that's involved is quite similar. And therefore, the consequence is we live in similar enclosed worlds. The world we live in is due to our thinking. Not completely just in our thinking, but most importantly due to our thinking. Fish think like fish. Birds think like birds. So birds live in a world that birds understand, and fish live in a world that fish understand.

[17:50]

AND WE LIVE IN A WORLD THAT WE UNDERSTAND BECAUSE WE THINK ALIKE. SO WHEN I DESCRIBE MY WORLD, I'M THINKING ABOUT THE WORLD WHICH IS THE RESULT OF MY THINKING, AND I'M THINKING ABOUT THE WORLD WHICH IS THE RESULT OF MY THINKING. SO WHEN I THINK OUT INTO SPEECH FROM MY WORLD WHICH IS THE RESULT OF SPEECH, you who are living in a world which is a result of speech have a chance to understand me a little bit and I can say your understanding is good and you can say don't be so easy on me and so on or this Rice is delicious. And you can say, I agree.

[18:52]

But if I say this rice is delicious even to some animals that think quite similarly to us, like dogs, they don't really know what I mean. But there's certain places where dogs think like us. And in those places where they think like us, they live in a similar world. And there we can communicate. Like I live with a dog who likes to go for walks. So when her mistress starts putting on certain clothes, walking clothes, her mistress thinks, I'm going for a walk with the dog. And the dog thinks something like, this is interesting. I like this, whatever it is. I'm very excited about this. She's thinking like me now. And they're really in rapport.

[19:57]

And then they do this thing where they both think they're doing this something together. What the dog sees and what she thinks they're doing and what she thinks they're doing is somewhat different because the dog's thinking about the walk as a stroll through aroma paradise. But still, the mistress thinks she's putting on clothes and the dog thinks, good at putting on clothes, the dog doesn't think she's putting on clothes, the dog thinks that she's about to do something that the dog wants to do. And she thinks I'm about to do something I want to do and I'm putting on clothes to do it. The clothes for her are being put on. For the dog, they're a signal of this activity. So there's an overlap. They communicate because their thinking is getting pretty close. And so that's really quite enjoyable for mistress and dog.

[21:03]

So we can communicate and the way we communicate is by talking, eating, walking and sitting together. Doing things together is how we communicate and how we verify our understanding. There's ways we communicate by physical posture that leads other people who are communicating with their physical posture and think about their physical posture, they understand something by looking at our body that they understand by looking at their own body. And so we can work out the verification together. She's as curious as she'd like to move rocks. My Dharma brother, Paul Disko, likes to build temples.

[22:36]

Ed Brown likes to cook. I do kind of like studying ancient texts. I do kind of love studying sutras. And I do feel forced to talk about them. I don't really want to, but Once I start doing it, I get very happy. So it makes it not difficult for me to comply with the pressure. And then people want to make books out of things I say, so then I feel obliged to help them with the books. So then I spend even more time looking at the scriptures. And then you have to hear about it. If somebody's making a book out of my talks on garage mechanics, it would be the same.

[23:49]

You would be hearing about that kind of thing. Because I was asked to be in this position. So I'm telling you about my life. It may look like I'm talking about an ancient text, but really I'm talking about my mind. where I'm living. I would like it if this teaching helped us realize intimacy with each other in our daily life. So again, we could be up for intimacy or not, but let's say we were and let's say we wanted some assistance in becoming intimate.

[24:54]

Well, one assistant, one assistance I offered was at the beginning a story where one of our ancestors said that, recommended intimacy and demonstrated offered the recommendation of intimacy in the context of a story of intimacy, of a story of working closely and living closely with a student, somebody who takes care of his clothes, carries his clothes for him, offers him his clothes, receives his clothes, asks him about his clothes. Teacher asks the students about the clothes. They talk about the clothes they wear. And people do that too. They talk about the clothes they wear. They have trouble with the clothes they wear.

[25:55]

The kind of clothes they wear are not the kind of clothes they advertise in the catalogs. where they say, you know, really comfortable clothing, comfortable, convenient, easy to clean, easy to put on and take off. Our clothes are difficult to put on, difficult to keep on, difficult to keep on, difficult to get off. This is the robe of patience. This is the robe of practice. So we practice with this cloth and share share the intimacy of thinking about cloth the same way and having struggles with cloth. In this way we verify our understanding. But sometimes we verify that we don't understand. Sometimes we think we don't understand and our lack of understanding is verified. Sometimes we think we do understand and our understanding is not verified.

[27:03]

Sometimes we don't think we understand and our understanding is verified. Sometimes we don't think we understand and our understanding is not verified. In other words, we're told that we do understand. And then we understand and then we're told we don't understand. In this way, we learn how to eat rice and drink tea together. And we transmit this eating rice and drinking tea. And we transmit temple cleaning and temple cooking and temple building and clothes wearing and bowing and chanting and sitting. We transmit all these things which are the way which are the daily activity of Buddhas, and they're all paintings of rice cakes, which are the only thing that will satisfy your hunger.

[28:09]

The actual rice cake one might wonder about, the actual rice cake is not something to satisfy you, but it comes along with satisfaction. The actual rice cake is not actually painted or cooked. It's not even fabricated. It doesn't come or go or rise or cease. That's the actual rice cake, which is the fruit. It's a fruit that has no birth. So we do paintings of this, and the paintings of this satisfy our hunger. And when our hunger is satisfied, we realize the rice cake.

[29:18]

And then that realization of the right cake gets communicated into eating painted rice cakes. which satisfy a hunger which is really just a painting of a hunger. But nonetheless, it's satisfied. We're at peace. We're flexible and free. And we can continue eating and painting rice cakes together and enjoying the great happiness of the daily activity of Buddha ancestors. So we're already practicing the way that's been transmitted, but we can be fooled by our mind. So it's good to be aware that we have a tricky mind that appears as objects. It appears as something out there.

[30:25]

It appears as something out there which is separate from us. That's the way it looks. We should not deny that. We should take care of that We're no longer fooled. We're no longer fooled. We're at peace. All unwholesome states are pacified, and we enter the middle way. We enter the big rice cake. So in my little world, everything's really clear right now. And if it's not in yours, then you can tell me about yours. And since yours is quite similar to mine, except yours has that difference, we can talk about it. And if it's clear and you want to talk about how clear it is, you can talk about that too. And we can verify the clarity.

[31:29]

We can send aid to unclarity, and we can verify clarity or refute clarity. It's also possible, if you like, of some of your clarity refuted. We may be able to offer that. That's basically what I wanted to offer to you. When does the bell ring? Who's the bell ringer? When do you ring the bell? No, I thought we rang the bell and then the kitchen goes, but does the kitchen go and then we ring the bell? What time should we ring the bell today? Huh? 10.15? Okay, you ready?

[32:34]

10 more minutes of rice and tea. For the kitchen. Before they go and make rice and tea. For the Zen dopes. Thank you for your teaching.

[33:59]

It sounded to me at a certain point... Can you hear well? Okay. It sounded to me at a certain point... that you were talking about our living with shared concepts, or the concepts are involved in the sharing that we do in our communal life. Mm-hmm, yeah. Conventional designations, words. Yes, involving language. involving language. Yeah. So the situation that you share, you might consciously share either your enjoyment or your dismay or they might be dismayed and you might be worried about them because they're holding a baby or, you know, all these things go on in these

[36:16]

situations. And it doesn't involve, does this involve concepts? Or does it involve... It does, yeah. It does. And the concepts, particularly the concepts that we where we communicate our concepts around the body. So, for example, there is chairs for Spanish-speaking people and English-speaking people, but in both languages they have a word for chair. So both languages are thinking of the image of a chair, and the image of the chair has something to do with a body that sits in it. So even though you don't say chair, you're sitting on a chair with the person, even though you don't say chair, you both have a concept of a chair because you have these human bodies which sit in chairs. So then you're both sitting in the same concept, basically, slightly different name, and you're both lurching because you have bodies which lurch similar ways.

[37:27]

So you both have concepts in different language for lurch. And you can both step in potholes, so you both have words for potholes. And so you think this way. And because you think this way, you feel that you have some communication with these people who speak different languages. But the reason why you have some similarity with them, some similarity, is because you think like they do. And the way you think like them is that you use similar concepts. That's what I'm suggesting. Prior to the concept, isn't there a physical event that exists? Well, you could say prior to a living being, is there a physical reality?

[38:32]

before somebody is born. Because a living being is a body that's conscious. And when consciousness arises, it arises with concepts. There's not just consciousness, there's consciousness and objects of consciousness. Well, I guess I want there to be a ground. Yeah. When you live in a mind like we have, people really would like a ground. So there's a yearning for ground, there's a yearning for something substantial in our situation. And part of the reason why there's one of the contributing factors to wanting a ground is that the way mind appears, the way our consciousness arises, is it arises in this split way. It's split. It seems like the world's separate from us.

[39:37]

And because of that we feel agitated and frightened. And we would like something to hold on to, to hide in or protect ourselves from this fright. Can't we not just live in that consciousness? Can't we just live in the world that the consciousness splits us from? We are living in the world that the consciousness... The consciousness doesn't split us from the world. It's like you look at a child. The child feels separate from their parents, but their parents say, I'm right here. I'm right here. I've always been right here with you. Now, the parents also see the child as separate, but they're not worried about it as much as the child might be. But the Terrans aren't really separate. We're not really separate from us. We live in a world where we're not separate. We live in a world where we're intimate with everybody. There's no distance between us. There's no separation. This is a cognitive construction. And we live in a world where things appear to be separate, but they're not.

[40:42]

And so you say, can't we live in a world where we aren't separate? And I say, we are living in that world. That's where we're actually living. But to us, the world where we're not separate is inconceivable. Because the world where we're not separate is not fabricated. So we're in fabricated land. And one of the main fabrications is separation. That's where we're surrounded by this fabrication. But around the fabrication is non-fabrication, is the reality. But fortunately, somebody has realized this reality and is sending us care packages. The care packages are you're living in a mental construction. That's where you're living. If you will accept this, you can calm down with it. If you calm down with it, you will be transformed and realize the intimacy which surrounds you all the time. You're always moving in this intimacy, but you won't let the light in unless you recognize that you have sunglasses on.

[41:48]

And if you accept you have sunglasses on, you don't have to take them off. You can somehow sense the light. Some of these sunglasses, this isn't the best metaphor, you have blinders on. We all have a consciousness which is blinding us because it appears in such a way, it arises in such a way that it comes with false appearances. And again, the main false appearance is we're not intimate with something. We're not intimate with the mountains. There's a little separation between us. When we're in the mountains, we're not intimate with the valley. So we're afraid. Does it mess it up to say that we're living in the inconceivable? We are living in the inconceivable. We're living in the inconceivable Dharma. We're moving in it all the time.

[42:51]

However, we live within a little world, you know, fish live in water, birds live in the sky. And it says, you can make other analogies, humans live in delusion. If a fish leaves the water, it will die at once. If we would get out of this deluded, cognitive-only world, we would die at once. Yeah. We would die at once. And matter of fact, when we die, we get out of it for a minute, which is, you know, one of the advantages of dying. You get a little break. I will study this further. Great. Thank you for continuing to go over this.

[44:38]

It makes me think of how sometimes we hear things and sometimes we don't hear things. And I see Every time I come to Tassajara, every time I drive from San Francisco to Jamesburg, I see stuff I never saw before. I say, was that there before? How long has that been there? Forty years? Fifteen years? Hmm, never noticed it before. Same way we go through the teaching, there's so much we miss. And Samyuddin Ramachandran Sutra is really like that. But also the koans. Every time I go through the story, I see another little rabbit in there.

[45:44]

So we have to be patient and go over and over and over. And we see more and more and more as the years go by if we keep going over and over these teachings. So, to go over it again? Yes. Are fabricating faculty? Would it be like mental perception or the mental organs? It's not that, you could say that's a focal point, but it's the whole cognitive consciousness is involved in the mental fabrication, the whole karmic consciousness.

[46:59]

But that particular organ is sometimes given the focus of a particular type of fabrication, not all fabrication. It's the focus of the imagination of separation, of difference, of, you know, and therefore self. That's its particular forte and also its particular, why it's called, that's why that organ is called defiled mind, because it's the central defiler in one interpretation of this teaching. But the whole pattern of the consciousness is actually the fabricator. The karmic consciousness, the overall pattern. So the overall mind would be considered karmic consciousness? No, a mind

[48:02]

The kind of minds we have are minds that are karmic consciousness because they have many mental factors. The mind has a, what do you call it? The mind has creative capacity. So it isn't really the overall mind, but it's the creative, imaginative capacity of the mind to construct and put things together and fabricate things. I wouldn't call that the overall mind, I would call that the activity of mind. And minds that have that activity are called active minds. So karmic consciousness is a consciousness where there's activity being generated, fabrication, construction. It's a construction site, which we don't like sometimes, but It's giddy.

[49:07]

It's a giddy situation. Easy to be disoriented. Did you get the distinction now? The overall mind is not the defining quality of karmic consciousness. The pattern, the overall pattern of the mind, that fabricated pattern, that's the karmic part of the consciousness. Yeah, I think I like the observer and the observed. That's a construction. That's one of the constructions. Self and object. Grasper and grasp. Those kinds of things are the result of the workings of the consciousness, their creations. they will not stand up to analysis. You cannot find a grasper separate from a grasped. But there is the creation, the fabrication of such an appearance.

[50:12]

And we cannot get away from that fabrication without dying at once. But then we just get born again back in the same situation. Hopefully. Rather than a fish. So outside of the observer and the observed, the mental activity of subject and object... Outside that? Outside that. Yeah. Is that...is there kind of a consciousness happening there too? Or is that like... Well, you said outside that, but that's another construction. Okay, so that's a little bit difficult for me to say yes. to that because without noting that we're talking about another construction called outside. So it's not exactly outside, it's more like the karmic consciousnesses live in reality, but reality isn't exactly outside karmic consciousness.

[51:20]

The Dharmakaya, the true body of Buddha, isn't outside deluded beings. and it's not deluded beings, but it totally penetrates them. So it's not exactly outside. But there is a realm of reality which we're actually living in that we don't realize because it's unconstructed. And we can't even think of it because we think, how about outside? How about inside? Those won't make it. Nothing we think of can reach it. It's beyond any kind of imagination. But that doesn't mean that just because I said it's beyond, that doesn't make it either. But still, I say, we do live in reality. And to wake up to it, we have to really understand our delusion. And we never get away from reality. We just get distracted from it or obscure it by our delusion. Well, I say we do.

[52:26]

It is just distracted. We are just distracted from it. Or we are obscured. We can't see it because of the way our mind works. But also, it is the truth of the way our mind works, too. Could you follow that somewhat? Yes. I guess it makes me think of the practice, which I think is the proposal here, of viewing all that arises through the sense gates as well as the mind gate as mind. So objects that normally appear to us outside, you know, seeing the eye, consciousness touching the wood post, you know, as that wood post as a fabrication is mind.

[53:29]

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, the wood post that you see is a mental fabrication. Right. And in that way is volume. Mm-hmm. Right. So then... But I'm not necessarily saying to think of that every time you see a wood post. But be mindful of that teaching but don't necessarily think of it all the time. But equally important is how do you take care of the post or the enemy or the insult or the pain. So if I take good care, if I hear this teaching and then I take good care of the post, in caring for the post and calming down with the post, then I'll realize this teaching. And hearing it beforehand helps maybe, but you can actually realize intimacy with the post even without hearing this teaching.

[54:35]

But this teaching is actually to encourage you to become intimate with the post. And as we work on being intimate, if there's some sign of being interfered in your kindness to the post by the sense that it's separate, then if we overcome the interference to the kindness, we also overcome the belief in the separateness. So it's more about how to become intimate with the post than remembering that the post is intimate. The teaching is saying you are intimate with things but they don't look intimate. That is the teaching. Then the practice is to actually practice intimacy with the thing and then realize the teaching of intimacy. To practice intimacy with mind only to realize that it's mind only. In other words, that it's not really out there.

[55:40]

In other words, that you're not separate from it. In other words, we are intimate with all objects. They're all intimate already. And if we treat all objects in these very kind, concentrated ways, we will become wise in relationship to these objects. We'll understand they're not separate. So then the practice would be to become intimate with mind? Yeah, you are becoming intimate in mind as it's appearing as a post. the way that it's being recommended that we do this is by keeping that teaching in mind? No, you don't have to keep teaching in mind unless you don't do the other. The way it's recommended is by practicing the bodhisattva training program. Yeah, starting, for example, with giving.

[56:43]

You practice generosity towards the post. By practicing generosity, post is the first step towards intimacy with the post, to realizing intimacy. You're already intimate with the post, but it looks like it's out there separate from you. It looks like you kind of feel like, well, I can walk away and the post isn't me. I'm not saying you can't walk away from the post. I'm just saying no matter how far you walk away from the post, you're always intimate with it. So how do I understand I'm intimate with the post? By practicing generosity towards it. And that will lead me to realize this teaching. And this teaching is not something I keep in mind all the time. This teaching is to encourage me to do these practices to realize it. Because the teaching is saying, if you realize this, that will be wisdom. That will be suchness. That will be the middle way. This is the way to actually realize enlightenment. And this is what enlightenment is. It's getting over this, it's realizing intimacy. So how do you realize intimacy? You don't have to remember those teachings, they're just encouragements and guidelines while you're doing this.

[57:48]

Why am I trying to be intimate with this post again? Oh, because I think I'm not intimate with it. And everybody thinks they're not intimate with it. I'm not a weirdo. So now I practice generosity with a post. And how do you practice generosity with a post? I think of my, again, my Dharma brother. When he went to Japan, he already built the kitchen here before he left. He was already a really good builder. So he went to Japan to learn carpentry. The first six months he was there, all he did was plane posts. Just planed them, [...] planed them. In other words, he learned generosity towards the wood. Didn't build anything. didn't learn anything about temple carpentry, just plain wood. He already knew how to do it, but six months of that, six months of intimacy with the wood. Then he's ready to learn the precepts of wood, how to be careful with wood, then to be patient.

[58:50]

Also the six months help with the patience. So these are ways we get intimate with each other and with all beings, including wood, is by practicing generosity, ethical discipline, and patience. Then we have a lot of energy now to practice concentration and settle down with the wood. Now we settle down with the wood, and when we're completely settled with the wood, after being so kind to the wood and getting quite intimate, but still there's a little bit, a hair's breadth difference, it still counts. There's still a little bit of difference between me and this post. There's still a little bit of difference between me and you. And that little difference is enough to make me really scared sometimes of you and the wood. That's enough. Just a little bit. So how do we close the gap? We keep looking at the wood. We look at the separation from this calm, kind place. And we see, oh, there's not any. It's the mind. It's my mind.

[59:51]

I am the mind. It's the mind. We are intimate. Now we're seeing suchness. But I don't have to remember this teaching. I will realize it. The teaching is saying, this is an important teaching. This is the thing that bodhisattvas look at. You want to see this? You want to see what bodhisattvas look at? Then practice these precepts. These six precepts. And you will see what they see. And you will enter the way that they walk. But once you get that message, you don't have to think of it anymore for a while. Unless you get discouraged and say, why am I practicing precepts? There's no end to this. It's to realize intimacy with the precepts and realize the suchness of the precepts because that's what saves all beings. So don't think about the teaching too much. Mostly practice these precepts with what's happening. for you, what's appearing to you.

[60:54]

And it maybe helps to notice occasionally, I feel a little non-intimacy here. And it is sort of agitating to feel a little, and I'm kind of scared when I feel separate from people. It's good to be aware of that because that's appearing too. And that's also not out there, that fear. How is it now? Good. You're welcome. Hi, Lori.

[62:01]

I remember last time we talked and I was feeling really sad and upset and you said I had to go look at the things that I was imagining in my head and not just push them away. And so I did that. And I discovered that they were images of longing or intimacy. And they were images of intimacy with everyone here. So after I saw that, I started realizing that all these people were actually right outside and all around me and that there were plenty of and there had been and there were plenty of opportunities for intimacy and so I've been seeing that that and sort of like tuning in to the

[63:27]

24 hour Tassajara intimacy channel. And seeing that, you know, whether I'm bathing or working in the kitchen or being intimate with the plants or living in the dorm with eight women and one bathroom with two sinks and two toilets. It's all very intimate. I also find that when I really get out of it, especially good examples like on serving days, you get up and you're really tired and you think, oh gosh, I gotta go serve. But then when I get there, and the rest of the serving crew is there, and Shibuchi walks in, and she looks at us, and she just says, like, wake up, everybody.

[64:30]

We're serving. And then everybody, we support each other doing that, and it's a really wonderful feeling. And then you get to go around the Zendo, meeting everyone and bringing them food. It feels really good. No, I'm not serving because I sit in that seat and I get to move around every time I have a meal. I get to go be intimate with everyone's seat. See what it's like there, how hard their seat is or soft. And then I also feel very humble from everyone here. Yeah. Humility is compatible with intimacy.

[65:35]

I'd like to thank them for accepting my past evil karma when it arises. Thank you. You're welcome. When one becomes intimate, the teaching that the rice cakes and hunger that one experiences are paintings of rice cake and hunger, what keeps one earnestly devoted to paintings of rice cakes and hunger?

[67:10]

Well, I'm not sure, but one possibility is The teaching that if you think the painting of separation is real, you're going to be in trouble all the time. And you're going to be less able to help people if you think the painting of separation, the painting of not being intimate with people, is something other than a painting. It'll really interfere with the harmony of your life. So I'm devoted to, not so much to the separation, but I'm devoted to practicing with the separation so it doesn't harm anybody eventually. I'm devoted to the peace that could be arrived if I was no longer fooled by the illusion of separation. So I give a lot of attention to separation, or we dash things I'm separated from, both, the things I seem to be separated from, both the sense of separation and what I'm apparently separated from.

[68:19]

That overcomes this illusion. that brings wisdom to arise at the point of delusion. What keeps someone from just saying, OK, there's paintings, and I'm going to deeply relax to the paintings, let them be whatever they are? That's part of what I'm talking about, is relax. with the illusion. Relax with separation. If you feel separated from somebody, if you feel alienated from somebody, relax with that sense of alienation. And then you'll calm down with it. And then look at it after you're calm with it and see that the thing you're alienated from is you. Why do the Bodhisattvas choose to engage with these paintings rather than just relax and stay? Because of their vows. The whole thing's under the auspices of their vows.

[69:26]

They came here to help, and they remind themselves all the time that that's their main point. And when they think of that point, if that's separate from them, then they try to relax with the sense of separation from their vows so that that doesn't interfere. And they also know from the teachings and from experience that they're trying to help someone and they see the person separate from them, that really tires them out. So they realized that if they wouldn't see people as separate, they would be more indefatigably devoted, which they want to be. That's pretty important. Thank you. Yeah, they're the basis. I am not still clear about the intimacy, especially with you talking about the intimacy with the setting of the boundaries.

[71:16]

Yes. Can you hear her? Yes. Maybe tilt it this way. This way? Yeah. So you're not clear about boundaries in relationship to developing intimacy? Okay. Can you give an example of where you're not clear? I can be patient. Can you be patient with me? Well, I'd just like to point out that you just set a boundary. You offered a boundary right there. Did you see that? Did you see it? I was asking you a question. You kind of wanted me to stop so you could continue with that thing. I saw a little boundary there. Did you see it? Do you see it now? Yeah. And that's okay with me for you to say. Would you please shut up for a while?

[72:18]

That's fine. Both setting up boundaries and receiving boundaries. You talked about setting up, giving the boundary as a gift, not as a control. Yes. And also, you didn't say that, but receiving a boundary as a gift instead of a rejection, probably. How do you do that? Well, for example, I really appreciate this question because what you're bringing up is something that's very important in relationship to what I was talking about in terms of giving boundaries. You can give boundaries as a gift and not mean it to control the person, really not trying to control them.

[73:23]

However, even though you give it, it still might hurt them. They might feel pain. So if you're looking at someone and they offer you a boundary of, you know, stay away from me, or they offer you a boundary by saying stay away from me by not looking at you, you know, you may feel like, oh, I'm here to serve you and they won't look at you. They feel like I have to set the boundary of not looking at you. I'm limiting my I'm limiting our relationship by not having eye contact with you. And sometimes if people won't look at me, it might be somewhat painful to me. Maybe I would like them to look at me. But maybe they need not to look at me. But it still might be somewhat painful for me. Even if I don't feel rejected, I still may be feeling painful. But I remind myself when people don't want to look at me or are trying to avoid me, I just say,

[74:25]

I accept this limit in our relationship now. Maybe they need this in order to dare to be intimate with me. Where does intimacy come? If you have communication with that person, that's it, because you set the boundary. There's no more interaction anymore. There is. The next time I see them, there'll be interaction. Another time when they won't look at me. And another time they won't look at me. And another time they won't look at me. And another time they don't want to talk to me. Those are all interactions. I'm saying it's working towards intimacy. And if I accept that they won't look at me, if I accept that they don't want to talk to me, they, on some level, They understand. He's letting me not look at him. He's letting me ignore him. He's letting me not talk to him. He's not forcing me to be intimate with him. And after a while, and in some cases it takes years, after a while they come.

[75:34]

They come and they say, I'm ready to look at you now. Now I can look at you Now I can look at you and take care of myself too." Some people look at us but they get very disoriented when they look at us and they don't want that. So they don't want to look at us. Even the Buddha suggested to Ananda one time, He said Ananda was very good-looking and very charming, but he was also a celibate monk. So when he met women, he was heterosexual, I guess, or they were. Anyway, there was a big thing that happened between Ananda and these women. And Ananda got kind of excited and disoriented. And he went to his teacher and said, you know, I got this problem. you know, when they come, just walk away. I said, what if they come and stand in front of me? He said, well, don't look at them.

[76:38]

What if they say, hey, you, don't talk to them. You know, Ananda wasn't ready for it. And maybe it hurt those women's feelings. But this was his path to become intimate with these women, which he was able to do finally. Not physically intimate, but heart to heart, he became a great ancestor. But he had some times where he had to offer limits, and the Buddha had to help him offer those limits. But it doesn't mean it doesn't hurt the other people or that the other people don't. Hurt means uncomfortable. It doesn't mean harm. But a lot of people, particularly when I'm in a practice setting, don't want to look at me. They want to avoid me because they feel that's what they want. And they want to know if I can accept that. I think maybe they're not consciously, but how long can I avoid him?

[77:41]

Will he accept that forever? And when they feel that I can, then maybe they'll come and see what else is possible. How was your feeling? I wouldn't exactly say it hurts my feeling. I would say it's uncomfortable. It's kind of uncomfortable. I don't very often take it personally. If I take it personally, it makes it more uncomfortable. But I understand that if I'm in the position of leading a practice period, for example, that creates certain psychic energy that some people are uncomfortable with and aren't ready to encounter in certain ways. And it's like some people are very good looking. Some people, I really don't want to look at people that are really good looking because they get all giddy and upset when they look at them. So they stay away from them.

[78:43]

And the good looking person has to accept that and it might hurt them. And some people want to be with good-looking people and some good-looking people don't want a lot of people to come and look at them. So then they avoid people who are trying to look at them. They're not ready for the intimacy. So part of what we have to do, we have to accept people's limits. And when they learn that we'll accept their limits, then they'll let us get closer. But if they think, he doesn't accept this limit, maybe he won't accept the next limit. So why even start? Why wait till later? And it's more difficult to do later in some ways. So it's good to do it right away. If you feel anything, do it right away. Be patient and generous. Patience isn't really to offer a boundary. That's a gift. But patience deals with offering boundaries and people not accepting them.

[79:48]

And patience deals with people setting boundaries with us which are uncomfortable. Sometimes we're very close to people and they say, I need some space. I want to be away from you for a while. And that can be quite uncomfortable. But we should, I feel we should give people the space to have some, we should give people the space that they're asking for. And if they feel that generosity and that we're not giving it as a manipulation, I'll give you the space to get you to, I'm giving you the space so that later you will let me come close. No, really give it with no expectation. And then give it again with no expectation. This is developing intimacy. And the person's getting closer and closer to the time when they can open to you. Patience is how long it takes sometimes.

[80:54]

Patients obliged to how long it takes for the person to trust that they would take a chance, take a chance on intimacy. But we are vulnerable, so it's good to be careful. Because if you're not careful with your vulnerability, then sometimes you really put up a very strong wall, sometimes an aggressive wall, So it's better to do it with the little things. If someone comes a little too close, say it right then, because then it's not so intense. Like, you're getting a little too close, rather than, you're getting way too close, and I'm going to punish you for that. I'm going to call the police. This is a difficult part of the process. setting the boundaries I say set but giving boundaries and receiving boundaries but I really have confidence that when I have accepted the boundaries people have set up many many times some boundaries have been set up and are still up after many years I'm waiting for some that have been there for decades but some have been up some were up for years really and the person came and told me about what was going on

[82:24]

And I talked to other people about what to do with these boundaries, and I usually got the advice, just let it be. Let them have it. And I've always been rewarded, not always, I've been rewarded many times for just tolerating people having space from me for years. And then finally they came and told me the story of what they went through and were ready to ready to deal with the problem which was too much before for them to deal with. So I have confidence in this. But it takes a lot of patience and generosity and carefulness. It's not, as Suzuki Rishi said, intimacy is not easy to realize. It's hard, it's difficult. That's why we need formality and boundaries. To do it without that is just too much. It's catastrophic.

[83:28]

I believe it's always there. That's my belief. That's my belief. That's my faith. My faith is that intimacy is reality and separation is an illusion. And I bring a big sutra with me to back me up. It's my bet on intimacy. That's what I'm here for. That's what my life's for. And I know it's really difficult, but that's what I'm betting on. And it's possible that 10 years from now I say, well, it was a bad bet. I'm switching to separations of reality, and that's what I'm here for. Get away from me. I'm going to control you. Forget intimacy. Let's get into control here. That's part of the reason why it's good to practice with the Sangha, because you might think you can control your spouse or your kids, but you can't control the whole Sangha.

[84:53]

Unless it's a cult. Everybody. Yes, sir. We agree with you totally. You're welcome. I wanted to apologize. You were giving a talk three days ago or so. And I was, I've had trouble with boundaries for a very long time. And I think part of that came up with, you know, what I talked about in my way seeking mind talk. A great deal. And I have some more memories that come up since then. you know, emotional and physical abuse. So anyway, that's... But when you were giving your talk, I've been sitting, you know, really pushing myself with my sitting, you know, developing a full load.

[86:07]

It's been very painful. And for a long time, I really... You know, I never moved out of it. I wouldn't move out of it. I just, there was no boundary. You know, I would sit the whole session and that was it. And... I'm glad you survived. Yeah, I'm very flexible. Yeah. So, I mean, I'm fortunate at least. Yeah. I'm glad you didn't quit. Yeah. By pushing yourself too hard. And I hope you're more gentle in the future. and have more enjoyable experience. And not so much less painful, but less severe. It's not that I want you to have more or less pain, but I want you to be more gentle with your pain, more tender with yourself. That would be good. Be tender with the boundary called, do not move. The boundary on movement. No movement. How about, no movement.

[87:10]

No more today. We're going to sit still here. Maybe. We're not going to push too hard anymore. We're just going to push the right amount. I just wanted to apologize because I was sitting right over there and probably people saw I started to slump down and Everybody was watching you. I don't want to send that message that that's a way to practice. What message do you want to send? Okay. Please send that message. I just wanted to also, here's that message.

[88:14]

Actually, yesterday I gave myself a lot of, I sat in Saison during tea and just opened up into Burmese for Yogi and me. And it was, a part of it was, like, I mean, for me, it's also a competitive thing. I've always been in sports. Yeah. Playing tennis and competitions with music and so forth. So I learned very competitive and bringing that into it. So for me to sit in Cezanne was, it felt like... I don't really want to do this. I don't want people to see me, you know, show weakness or, you know, like I don't want to appear to be not so good or something. And, um, but it was, um,

[89:15]

I wanted to give it as a gift, you know, just because I think we should all, you know, be not so attached and more kind. And I just felt a lot of humility. I felt like I was more human, like I was giving myself some kindness. And it really felt good yesterday. I mean, it was amazing. Great. So I want to just appreciate everybody here that's been giving me that message all along in great discussions. Great. Thank you for that expression. You're welcome. Thank you. I have a question that's been coming up for me during the talks the last few days, and it's about the anatomy and physiology of the brain.

[90:49]

I read this book called A Stroke of Insight. Did you read that book? No. Yes. And she had an aneurysm and it temporarily blocked completely the functioning of the left side of the brain. which is kind of, seems to me, a metaphor for the fabricating function of the brain. And yet she's completely aware of the right brain function, and she perceived everything as oneness. And I have two questions that come from this. The first one is, how do you think this functioning is related to what we're talking about? And then also I have a fear. that all this is the brain and not the one that actually informs the brain.

[92:01]

Well, my understanding of the human condition is that we have brains and we also have fear. And you told us about one fear just now. And so my understanding of human condition is that these wonderful practices that have been given to us are perfectly set up to deal with fear. And if we apply these teachings, these practices to fear, we will come to wisdom and we'll be relieved of the fear. That's the first thing. That's the main thing. And other difficulties and also other nice things. If we apply these practices to pleasant things and unpleasant things, we will be led to wisdom and peace and freedom. In terms of the brain, what just popped in my mind as you were talking was the right brain, when she was seeing oneness, that was still a construction.

[93:18]

It was a painted cake of oneness. And that's why you might be afraid that there would just be a brain, because that would mean that oneness is just a painting. But in fact, all we ever see is a painting of oneness. So when you see oneness, sometimes people come and say, I saw oneness. Well, that's another example of cognition only. However, it's a part of cognition only that keeps us not comfortable with separation. It prods us to the real rice cake of oneness, which is not a fabrication of oneness. But since it's not a fabrication of It's inconceivable. And that's why we have to do the practice. If you do the practice, the fruit of the practice is you realize the inconceivable oneness, the realization which is not the object of recognition. That which can be recognized is not realization itself. But you can make realization into a

[94:26]

into a painted cake of oneness. And that's really great to look at. It's very nice. It's a very nice orientation. It's lovely, especially compared to the hell of separation. Hell is extreme separation. It's the max, max separation. So, yeah, a painting of oneness is nice. It's very nice. lovely, and you get really relaxed and happy. But that's still a fabrication, a brain fabrication you might say, a psychophysical manufactured product, but still nice. And there's some nice things over on the division side too. There's good and evil, you know, there's cute babies, stuff like that. So to say that there's more than brain, it's not exactly that there's more than brain, but there's a reality to the brain.

[95:33]

The brain lives in reality. And the reality of brain is all brains are intimate. They're living in intimate peace and harmony. That's what Buddhists see right now. And they welcome us to enter that realm. But to enter that realm, we've got to take care of our brains by these practices. Look. Hello, Brad.

[96:41]

Brad, are you there? I am sort of here. Are you comfortable? Yeah. Thanks for responding. You're welcome. This is kind of what the most intimate relationship in my life has been like for the last year. Wow. Man, I'm feeling a lot of support. Pardon? I'm feeling a lot... You know what? The first part is, it sucks. He won't put up with it. Nonetheless... I felt a lot of support to take up this practice and find the comfort there and to study the feelings of separation.

[98:11]

Wonderful. I'm glad you're willing to study them. I want to thank you for teaching that Himodi supports intimacy. Yeah, it nurtures it. I've been given many gifts. Thank you for the gift. Again, thank you for this very thorough investigation of this question and for the profound teaching.

[99:56]

So if I heard it, we live in a mind which perceives itself as things outside of us. like a wig looking at another wig and saying, you're not me. Still hearing that description, in the context of the question of verification, it seems to me that it's still an article of faith that some ordinary human being could become extraordinary and grow and flower in a way that demonstrates the unconstructed and that someone else could see that. I personally believe that, but I feel that it would be... Yeah, but again... Yeah, but for me, the kind of faith that I have is more like, okay, I'll try it for life.

[101:08]

I'll try this out for life. I'll bet on this. I think it's got a good enough chance that I'd be willing to give a life to it. Sounds, you know, it's a pretty good bet. So not, so what I hear you maybe saying is you're distinguishing from just the faith that I take it on, but rather the belief that I'm willing to check it out and see if it's... Yeah, so that someone says that sometimes when I'm talking with enthusiasm they feel that criticism is not welcome. You know, critical thought. But I think that part of the tradition is, you know, there's a kind of Buddhism which says Buddhism is criticism. That's basically what it is, is to criticize, to analyze, to question. So it's also an article of faith that criticism and questioning is beneficial to the world. That's part of our tradition, generally, I think. But some Buddhists maybe don't like that kind of attitude, and so I accept them as loving Buddhism too.

[102:14]

But I'm more on the side of, like, I trust criticism also. I trust questionings. I trust people expressing their disagreement. I bet that's a good thing. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, at Zen Center, For some time now, when people ask me difficult questions, sometimes afterwards their friends say, you know, that wasn't very respectful, the way you talked to him. And then they sometimes come and tell me, they told me that I wasn't being respectful, and I said, no, I felt good about your question, and I encourage you to continue, and I would like to ask your friends to, I'll tell your friends that I appreciated your question and I didn't feel it was disrespectful. I need people to challenge me and not disagree with me.

[103:20]

And they do. So I'm getting somewhat, maybe I need more than I'm getting, but I'm getting some. I feel it's not healthy if nobody ever disagrees with me, questions me, criticizes me. And so it hurts sometimes, but I think, oh, this is protecting me from certain things, this criticism. It's protecting me from attracting people who are coming here to expect somebody that's perfect. People say, oh, he's really bad, but I'm still staying here to study with him. I wouldn't advise it for you. Stay away, but I'm kind of committed to work this out. It's really troublesome. So, also with what you said about practicing day-to-day life together, and the way that that sets a context for actually being able to see, or maybe I could say to sense something beyond this construction that I have, the people that I'm interacting with.

[104:40]

To me it's really a beautiful idea And it puts the whole context of what we hear about some of the old stories about, you know, hosu or fist or staff into a completely different realm. You can really start to see, you know, and again also in the context of the comments that you made about not seeing threat, not being perturbed by threat at a certain advanced stage of bodhisattva training. Not that I'm advocating any fists. And lastly, I also wanted to say, then it seems pretty obvious to me, and maybe this is, but I wanted to check it out with you, that the, if concentration is only fostered by meditation on non-conceptual images, that's why we do Shikantaza, right?

[105:46]

That's why the definition of Shikantaza is objectless meditation. Great. Thanks for verifying. And then when you're settled in objectless meditation, then you look at what is ordinarily considered an object and then see that it's not an object. Experience that you already were one with it. Yes. So it's Shikantaza and going to meet the object called the teacher and see if you can see the teacher is not out there. And then seeing the object makes you more calm. Seeing the object not as an object makes you more calm. So I'm coming forward somewhat blessedly, but mainly because we're on this topic and having this discussion, and we won't continue tomorrow.

[107:29]

And so I decided to jump in, even though I may not be able to articulate very clearly. I'll do my best. So as of yesterday, the idea of exploring the unconstructed reality seemed quite wonderful, at least where I was with it seemed quite wonderful. And today, when I've heard some of the changes that I've heard, that's shifted. Because I realize it seems fundamentally, the last thing I want is to be loved.

[108:36]

Did you say to be left or loved? To be left with this mind, only this mind and its constructions. So I value separation. This may not surprise you to hear. I do value separation. To me it's a beautiful thing because only through This primary separation, I feel we can find intimacy. It's the two coming together, the three coming together, separate entities form something else, so that you're not just spinning around in your own mind all the time, which is a nightmare scenario for me. So I'm probably far from getting what you're trying to transmit.

[109:43]

Now, can I say something? I think you said you value separation, so now I would say that the bodhisattva path is to love separation. Love it. Not like it, but love it. Loving separation will take us to intimacy. Yes, I would like to. Love means be gracious, be generous towards the separation, be careful of the separation, be patient with the separation, be enthusiastic about being those ways with the separation, and be enthusiastic about calming down with the separation. And then when you're done all those practices, look at the separation. and realize that it's actually the door to intimacy, the door to non-separation. That's the way I would say it, to love the separation.

[110:44]

So I agree with you that it's through the separation and the pain around it that we will realize intimacy. That's why intimacy is hard is because we have to go to the source of the illusion of non-intimacy, the source and the pain of separation, which you say is potential nightmare land. No, separation to me at this moment in time is not nightmare land. Okay. Anyway, that's what I mean by love. The way that you're talking about separation and the need and how to relate to it and how to love it makes it sound as though Either the reality or the delusion of separation is somehow a problem.

[111:46]

It's the source of misery. Believing it is the source of misery. That's all. And if you wish to overcome misery, then you face the source of the misery. You don't see the possibility. I don't know why I'm losing my voice. It's a sign that I should stop maybe. You don't see it as a possibility. Separation is actually a gift also. Excuse me? If you practice graciousness towards separation, you see it as a gift. Did you get that? Yeah. So if you're gracious towards separation, you'll see separation as a gift. You'll see delusion as a gift. If you practice generosity towards delusion, you'll see it as a gift.

[112:48]

If you see it as a gift, you'll understand the delusion. If a gift is an invitation, is it not to... That too. If you're generous with something, you see that it's inviting you. Yes, right. But if separation didn't exist, there would be no invitation... If separation didn't exist, there would be no need for any invitations. There would be no suffering. There would be no birth, there would be no death if there were no separation. So we wouldn't have any problems. So we wouldn't need to practice. Separation is part of creation. Things do not... Yeah, I understand. I understand. Yeah, I understand. But you said, if there weren't, you're the one who brought it up. And I just said, if there weren't separation, there would be no problems. But there is, but there isn't really separation.

[113:49]

There's only the illusion of separation. Only the illusion. If there weren't the illusion of separation, we wouldn't have problems. But there is the illusion, but there's not separation. Separation is not part of creation. It's not. The illusion of separation is part of creation. Separation does not exist. in any substantial way. It only exists as an illusion. But we believe it. And when we believe it, we're scared, agitated, and uncomfortable. Unless you're me, and then in which case it would be the opposite.

[114:51]

No verification on that one. Unverified. By me, anyway. Thank you, Fred. You're welcome. And my love. Thank you. Excuse me.

[115:58]

Well, you know, it is time to stop. So if it actually is going to take, you know, five minutes or something, Eno is going to have a hard time with that. And Big T is going to come. And maybe it would be better to do it some other time because it is 1130. And that's a time we're often encouraged to stop. Do you want to tell a real short story, Eno? Well, you did tell a short story. The short story is, I'd like to give you a gift. I got that one. Now, to tell the other one, maybe you can do it tomorrow. Want to? See you tomorrow. And if you have a short one, Brendan, but otherwise I think we're being asked to stop. Huh? Okay. May he ask a short one? Is that all right?

[116:59]

Is that okay? Okay. Let's see. I want to thank you for introducing Temple Grandin into your talk. I'm very passionate about my work with people with disabilities, and she's somebody who I've studied. And you asked, is it okay to refer to her as an autistic person? And there's nothing wrong with it, but I wanted to inform you of the trend in language around disability is to refer to her as a person with autism. Oh, okay. First in your language. Okay. Thank you. A person with autism. I'll practice that. Thank you.

[118:00]

You're welcome. Thank you.

[118:03]

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