I see some new people, some people who weren't here last night, and I would like to invite people who weren't here last night to stand up, please. Thank you. Would you please say your first name? Felicia? Francisco? Anita Eugene Susan and we last night we talked about we talked about the most important thing we talked about what is the most important or what is the ultimate concern of your life and again emphasizing not so much what's the most important thing maybe today but it might be the same thing today but also what's the most important in the long run at the end of your life at the end of life what would be most important or what is most important

[01:31]

for yourself, for your friends, for your relationships. In others and in your relationship with all things, what is most important? I ask people to look and see if they could see what that is in themselves or from your point of view. So that's kind of an ongoing an ongoing contemplation to see what that is. And then, and along with that, what ways of thinking are in accord with or line up with your ultimate concern in life?

[02:37]

And I also mentioned that I kind of think of an ultimate concern or the long range deepest purpose as faith, is what I think of as faith. Not so much exactly what you believe in but it's kind of what you believe is the most important thing in life, what you trust most in life, the thing that is the bottom line or the end point, this kind of stuff. So I wrote on the other piece of paper, sort of, I wrote a heart Just sort of like, what's the heart or the core of life for you, the deepest thing? And then, what way of thinking is in line with that? And thinking.

[03:48]

What kind of thinking is in accord with that? And sometimes people say, but a basic teaching of the Buddha, Shakyamuni, is that what we call karma is basically thinking. So the basic problems in life are due to our karma or our thinking. The things that obstruct being in accord with what's most important, the things that obstruct the deepest part of our heart from expressing itself are the results of karma.

[04:59]

Karma is a hindrance to the spirit in us, the deepest spirit, the deepest intention of life. We have it somewhere in us and sometimes because of karma, because of our past thinking, it's hard for us to find it somewhere. and also because of our present thinking, like if you're thinking right now that this person is not my friend, this person is not worth my kindness, that kind of thinking makes it a little hard to find your deepest desire in relationship to a person if you have a story like that. But even if you have a story, a different story, like this person is my friend, which in that story does go with this person.

[05:59]

I do want to be compassionate to this person. So that kind of thinking is in accord, for example, with a deep desire to be friends with people. If in the past you've been thinking that this person is your enemy, are not worthy of kindness. The results of those past thinkings, even though presently you want to be this person's friends because of past thinking, you can't quite let it out. Does that make sense? So I accept that I have a path of some thinking, some karma, which is not the thinking that everybody, or that this person and that person are my close, dear friend. And as a result, I have some obstruction. But if I find, I have some obstruction to my deepest desire.

[07:06]

But if I find the desire, now at least, I can start looking for the opportunity to think in a way that doesn't accord with that. So another way to say what thinking is or what karma is, is it's the story that you have in your mind. Probably you've got a story, like I have a story. I'm at Mount Madonna with you and it's Saturday morning and it's a beautiful day and I'm happy to be here with you. That's my story. That's my karma. And that story actually goes pretty well with what's most important to me. That story goes kind of nicely with wanting to realize a very deep, close friendship with all of you.

[08:14]

That's my... That's an expression of my... concern. And at the end of my life, that's what I... kind of, that's an expression, that's a way to talk about at the end of my life, my long-term goal, my long-term purpose is that I would be close friends with all beings, that I would realize intimacy. So this current story goes pretty well with that. Now if the weather was really kind of tough, you know, there was the wind was shaking the building and stuff, I should say, the wind was shaking the building. If I was thinking that the wind was rocking the building, if I was thinking the weather was really challenging and difficult to be in, and I was thinking, but I'm with my friends, I'm with close friends, then that story also would go with

[09:24]

the deep wish to be close friends with all of you. That story, that thinking, that karma. So a basic contemplation. Be mindful of what this deepest concern is. Be mindful of that continuously. a contemplation which includes a commitment to be continuous in the contemplation of the central issue central and long-term, central and final. Maybe right now I have this concern, I have this value, I have this desire, but it hasn't been realized. And I want it to be realized by the end of my life. Actually, it can be sooner, but at least by then.

[10:29]

If I die without realizing this, this is not my favorite idea. I think it requires that I keep remembering it and keep checking if my thinking is going with it. remember it and keep checking if my story's going with it. Is my story a story about how people are my friends? How I'm close to them? Not how everybody's my best friend, but how everybody's my close friend. Do I have that story? If I don't have that story, then I confess that my story is not in accord with this deep thing. And that's not the end of the process. Because by noticing that my story is not in accord with my ultimate concern, I can confess it and repent it. And that process will transform me into telling different stories.

[11:38]

to and more in accord with my deepest desire in life, my deepest purpose. That's kind of a review of last night, isn't it? Rubbing it in a little bit more deeply. So karma is thinking basically and sometimes people say thinking and acting but karma is basically thinking and it is an acting that is thinking is karma. So just in your mind and when you act with your body based on that thinking, that's karma. And when you speak based on thinking, it's karma. If you speak not based on thinking or as an expression of thinking, it's not really karma. And when you make postures not based on your stories or your thinking, it's not really karma.

[12:47]

So my traditional example that I give is a knee reflex. See, it went there. There, there. The tapping was an action based on karma. I had this story that I want to tap my knee to show you an action of my body that's not karma. The knee reflex isn't karma because I did not intend it. But I do intend this tapping. This is karma. The knee reflex, which didn't come, that is not karma. Salivation is generally karma. It's a physical action, but it doesn't come from your story. Or, you know, like if something gets in your eye and then mucus fluid is secreted to wash it away.

[13:59]

That's not based on a story, generally. But those physical postures that you make based on story are karma. And those vocalizations based on your story or your thinking, those are karma. Body, postures, vocalizations and mental formations, or rather mental formations, mental activity and the physical and vocal expressions of those, those are the actions of mind, body and voice that can or cannot be, that are or are not in a line with what you really care most about in the fullness of your life. So again this is something we can learn

[15:03]

we can learn what this is, what this deepest purpose is. We can learn it, we can discover it, we can remember it, and we can observe our karma, our actions, our body, and check to see if they're in accord with it. So that's like a central orienting meditation which then is at the center of all our relationships or not. We're doing that meditation and it applies to all relationships. It does, whether you like it or not. The issue might not be that you wish to I don't know what, your central intention, your central, your deepest desire might not be expressing some relationship to all beings.

[16:15]

It might not be that you wish to realize close friendship with all beings. That might not be your deepest desire. Some people might just say, I want to be a really good mom. to like three kids or one kid. That might be their deepest desire. They might not want to be a good friend to all beings, including their children. Okay? Some people won't say that. Still, if the deepest thing, the deepest desire in their heart is to be a good mom to three kids, that is their deepest desire that they've found so far. That does, whether they like it or not, it does relate to all beings. And if they take care of that and act in accord with that, they will realize that and that it will change. It will change from being a good mom to these three kids to being a good to these three kids and all beings.

[17:22]

I predict that. start with some area that's clear to you where you want to work and you take care of that in this way of lining up your karma, your stories with this point and it will include the whole universe. If you have a huge, already have a huge ultimate concern, the same. if you take care of that, that will actually, that does to the whole universe and you will realize it. So whether it's small or large, if you take care of it in this way of lining your karma up, the karma will become unobstructive, unobstructive, and this thing will gradually include all things because It does.

[18:23]

We already are intimate with all beings. So my personal deepest concern to realize that intimacy is based on the intimacy already being truth. You already are intimate with all beings. But you need to find the wish to realize it. And it can start with the wish to realize intimacy with your spouse, with your children, with your parents, with your student, with your coworkers, with one friend. It can start with that. And if you line yourself up with it, it will expand to all the different types of relationships. Some maybe way, way... A lot of people say that the most difficult one, the one that they most have trouble with is their parents.

[19:32]

And a lot of parents actually say the most difficult one is their children. And children don't have trouble articulating that until they're a little older usually. But a lot of Zen students, I know, they're kind of surprised that they're working on this compassion with people. And they kind of like their parents to be first, but their parents seem to be last. I think it's partly because of karmic obstruction. You have this long history of... of thinking in certain ways which make it hard to realize this ultimate concern which you vaguely knew when you were young and didn't know how to line up with it. So now there's a lot of obstruction. So that again is a central contemplation for relationships.

[20:43]

And then the other additional contemplation is And this contemplation, however, is not... Some people don't want to do this contemplation because this contemplation, the next contemplation, is one for someone who would like to receive Buddha's wisdom. So if you don't wish to receive Buddha's wisdom, this next contemplation might not be something that you would be interested in. but if you wish to receive Buddha's wisdom if you wish to see the Buddha teaching the truth to you then if with every being you meet you meet every being with tenderness peacefulness

[21:52]

and honest and upright everything in yourself and every being you meet every human every dog, every cat, every cockroach, every rat, every banana slug, every tree, every rock, every car, every tire, every pencil, every dish, every pain, every fear. So this is kind of a compassionate way of meeting things but a particular kind of compassion which will especially open you to receive Buddha's wisdom and then not only will you open to intimacy with the person or the tree, in intimacy you will be able to see more clearly what actions go with

[23:26]

your basic concern, your deepest desire. So to combine these two meditations, repeatedly going back to what's most central and final in life, what actions accord with that, and to help you see what actions accord with that, then for each event, for each experience outside and inside that you meet, care for the meeting in this way. So I guess the second meditation, so there's three meditations. One is find this ultimate concern. Two, find what action, speech and thought, or thoughts, thought, thought-speech and thought-posture, thought-speech and thought-posture, what actions go with this deep thing.

[24:32]

But kind of between the actions being aligned with this deep concern and between it maybe is this way of being with things, with events. So the second, the meditation on being tender and gentle and flexible and peaceful and honest and upright, that maybe will help you cope with your deep concern with your actions. Because that's not exactly an action. It's a way of being with all your actions. Or it's a way of being with all beings to promote the kind of action that will be in accord with your deepest concern to come forth and line up with that. So that's kind of a review, but also maybe it helped those here last night to be clearer. So now again, I was thinking that there's a central issue, your faith of your life is more important than a way of meeting things, such that you can find the thinking and acting

[25:48]

the thinking actions which align with this deep thing. And that's the basic contemplation. And then there's this variety of relationships which we are talking about. And I'm not going to go through all these different relationships one by one because there's too many types even. but just let you bring all the different variety forth. You know, I invite you to bring forth parent-child, child-parent, doctor-nurse-therapist, patient and patient-doctor-nurse-therapist. You can come at that from the patient side or the therapist side. Most therapists are also patients, right? Most therapists go to therapy or have gone to therapy. Not all doctors have gone to doctors. Most have, but some haven't and never will.

[26:55]

Most teachers have been students and are still. If it's a really good teacher, the teacher is still a student. Like one time I was at Tassajara, when I was abbot of Zen Center, you know, abbot of, you know, Zen Mountain Center, Tassajara. It's a monastery of the National Forest. When I was abbot of the monastery, I was, it was during the summer, and we have guest season in the summer. And, uh, the guests have separate meals from the resident practitioners. But I was with the guests and I was sitting with this woman and we introduced ourselves to each other and she didn't have to tell me that she was a guest. I knew because she was eating in the guest meal, but by my shaved head and so on, I was a student at Tassajara, and she said, are you a student here?

[28:03]

And I said, yes. And then later in the day, she found out that I was an abbot, and she was very happy that I didn't say, no, I'm not a student, I'm an abbot. And I was not just being a student. It's just, yes, I am. And I'll always be a student of the truth, of the Dharma, of the teaching of the Buddhas. That's no problem for me. When we give, like here we don't have such formal talks, you know. I sit down here and we start talking. But when we have more formality before I give a talk, usually, I bow to my teachers. I bow to the Buddha and to the bodhisattvas of wisdom and compassion. I bow down to them. I'm their student. And so I don't have the role of a teacher, but I'm a student teacher. Okay, so we have student-teacher, teacher-student relationships.

[29:12]

Look at them from both sides. We have parent-child, child-parent. We have spouse-spouse. Switch that sometimes. Try to be the other side of the relationship. Of course, that's good. I'm trying to learn to be a good wife. So bring them forth. Rather than go down the list, you can come at them from any angle. And I also wrote here, giving control and boundaries. So these are all in relationship to this central issue. And before I get into this, I want to take one of my, I guess part of my central concern, my ultimate concern in life is to be fearless.

[30:35]

particularly at the end of your life, being candy. And I notice a lot of people, as they get older, they seem to get more afraid. Or rather, they become more aware of their fear. Teenagers, with the aid of certain chemicals... are sometimes fearless. Young men sometimes jump off the top of tall buildings thinking that that will be fine because they feel indestructible because of the hormones that are going through them, which actually do help you recover from injuries. Do you know that? Testosterone helps if you get to... It's like, what is it? It's related to... What's it called? The shots you get? There's a steroid. What's it called? Cortisone, yeah. Testosterone serves part of the function of cortisone. So you can jump off buildings and break your bones or get bruised.

[31:38]

So you kind of know beforehand that you have a certain advantage here. So anyway, as you get older and the hormones go down, you're more aware that if you fall down, you will break. If you watch the football players getting thrown onto the ground, you go, ooh, I might break if I got thrown down that hard. So then older people start going like this. They start walking like this to be closer. Because the ground, somebody said to me, as you get older, the ground seems farther and farther away. So let's get down there. So we have to work with that fear so we can stand upright. And also sickness comes when you're older and sometimes you start losing certain faculties. It's sometimes how handy to be able to remember something like my name, a telephone number, where do I live?

[32:49]

I know it'll come if I just relax. So as you start to lose faculties, it's quite easy to get frightened. Fear is going to be, is going to come to visit possibly as you get older. So this is the way to work with fear. Work with fear if you're tender with your fears. gentle with your fears, flexible with your fears. You know, when fear comes, you don't have to stiffen up. You can go, okay, fear, all right, fear, okay, fear, all right, fear. I can work with you. I can walk with you. Walk, fear. You don't want to take a walk? What do you want to do? I want you to freeze. Okay, I'll freeze. How's that? You know, play with fear. Dance with fear.

[33:53]

Walk with fear. Talk with fear. Be tender and gentle with fear. If you want to be fearless. Be peaceful with fear. Harmonize with it. Not indulge. Well, indulge means yield. You can yield to it as part of being flexible and Okay, fear, you totally got me. I admit, you're living here. Okay? You did your job. I'm a successful frightened person. I'm successfully frightened. But I'm also tender about it and not beating or what I'm afraid of or myself up. I'm peaceful with... If I'm afraid, I want to be peaceful with my fear. If you're afraid, I want to be peaceful with your fear. If you're afraid, I want to harmonize with you and be in harmony with you.

[34:57]

I'm not going to tell you, you're a big girl. I'm not going to say that probably, except as a joke to some very fearless child or fearless adult. Then I might say, you're not afraid when you're fearless. And be honest, though, be honest. I am like one frightened . I'm afraid. We got fear here. Fear here. We got it. Honest, I'm just honest about it. And upright. Upright in mind, upright in power, upright in speech. This, by the way, reminds me of an offering which I can make to you during this retreat, which I offer other places too. I can make suggestions to your posture, if you like.

[35:58]

In meditation, when you're walking in meditation, if you like, I can make a suggestion. If you don't want me to make a suggestion, I'm not correcting you, I'm just suggesting what might be an exercise in uprightness to your posture. Please tell me at that time or tell me before then. Tell me or tell somebody else to tell me. that you do not want me to make a suggestion to your posture because I might see something in your posture that I could suggest. Try this. This might make you physically feel more upright, which then feed back to your mental uprightness. So uprightness in body, speech, and mind. Honesty in body, speech, and mind, peacefulness in body, speech, and mind, and tenderness, tenderness, in body, tender body, gentle body, wide body, and tender speech, tender speech, and tender thoughts, gentle thoughts, towards, for example, fear.

[37:18]

You will become fearless. and then you will be non-violent even when people are attacking you or your body's falling apart. in a sense to now come back here because it's so important in relationships. When fear comes up, it's a very special mention. So again, I have this deep heart's desire for the kind of relationships I want to have with all beings. I want to have a relationship of intimacy with all beings, of friendship with all beings. But then sometimes I meet a being and I feel afraid. So now, in order to act in accord with that deep desire, I need to work on the fear, the way I just mentioned. Then, when I become involved in working with the fear, it doesn't mean the fear goes away.

[38:28]

It means I'm working with the fear in a way that's called fearlessness. Fearlessness involves being tender with the fear that's coming up. in relationship to somebody, a good relationship, an intimate relationship. So I need to take care of this fear. I can't skip over the fear and have a good relationship. I have to work with the fear. That's part of, I have a relationship with fear now, which is joining my relationship with this person. For the fear in that way, and then I can start working with the person. So I'm working with the person, my view of the person. I'm working with the person, my view of the person, my deep desire and my fear all at once. Does that make sense? That usually, often when we're working with people, humans, and some animals, and some plants, fear is also part of what's going on here.

[39:33]

So we need to be intimate with all beings, mean intimate with all humans, but also be intimate with all my fears and all your fears. Okay, now back to this chart here, I have written giving, care, control, the central point of life, and boundaries. So the basic, the first and most basic practice in a way, in relationships is giving. It's the first and most basic way of transforming the actions of beings to align with their deepest concern. So in relationship to beings, transforming the mind of those I'm relating to so that our actions come into accord with happiness.

[40:49]

Because I think everybody does want to be happy. giving is a good place to start, maybe the usual place to start. The previous exercise could be seen as an exercise in giving, being tender, peaceful, honest, and upright. is kind of an expression or elaboration of what it's like to be giving. It's also a way to open up to giving. And also giving is also spoken of as the basic way to become fearless.

[42:03]

fear is overcome or is no longer a problem in the midst of fully divine giving. And there's a way of talking about giving which I've found myself to be very helpful but at the same time when I talk to people about it I've found them to go, to go, huh?

[43:18]

But I'm going to tell you this strange way, a kind of unfamiliar way to talk about giving that you might have a little difficulty understanding or you might be like me and think, oh yeah, that's really, that's what giving is. And it is to look at giving in some sense basically as giving yourself to yourself and giving others to others. That's sort of in some sense a basic or the basic giving. to what's going on. You're just giving yourself to yourself and giving others to others. And others can be, again, humans, animals, plants, landscapes, breakfast. So, when you go over to breakfast, if you go to breakfast, when you get your breakfast together, give your breakfast to your breakfast.

[44:28]

Let your breakfast be breakfast. And understand that that's giving. That's a generous act for you to not just eat your breakfast, but give your breakfast a gift. And therefore make your breakfast a gift. make your breakfast a gift, and even if you don't, even if, I don't know what, even if you went over there and for some reason or other they ran out of food, I don't know what, or for some reason the food just seems to be really not very, not much to it, just a tiny bit of food left or something, if you make that breakfast a gift, that breakfast will become a treasure. When you give things to themselves, the thing turns into a treasure. It's transformed into a treasure when you practice giving towards it.

[45:30]

Now you could give your breakfast, you know, you could give a dollar to your present, a dollar to your breakfast, but you can also just let your breakfast be breakfast, and your breakfast will turn into a treasure. and let yourself turn into, give yourself to yourself, and you will turn into a treasure, a valuable thing. Now you already are a valuable thing, you could say, and your breakfast is already a valuable thing. And if you know that, that's fine, and probably you know that because you're being generous. But if you don't know that you're a valuable thing or that somebody's a valuable thing or that a breakfast is a valuable thing, give it to itself and make that giving. See that that's giving and the thing will become valuable. And then give that away. And again, a giving is a simple version of the fourfold meditation I talked about before.

[46:37]

towards fear, opens to fearlessness. And then giving then goes with care, control, and boundaries. And I don't know which to start with first. maybe control. There's a chapter in a book called Zen Mind Beginner's Mind by Suzuki Roshi, founder of Zen Center.

[47:52]

And he says in that chapter, even if you, or even if we, even if you try to put people under some control, it is impossible. you cannot do it. That's what he said. The best way to control people is to encourage them to be mischievous. Then they will be in control in the wise sense. And I think he was being a little mischievous when he said that. If you encourage people to be They will be, including that they won't be mischievous. And that will be mischievous. Say, oh, you want me to be mischievous? Well, I won't be then. He liked the word mischievous anyway, and he was kind of mischievous because we encouraged him to be mischievous and we controlled him into being mischievous.

[49:03]

So in that sense, you can be in control of people. If you encourage them to be creative... you will be successful. They will be under your control because people will be creative. But in some other sense of control you will not be successful. He said to give beings a large spacious meadow is the best way to control them. first let them do what they want and watch them this is the best policy first let them do what they want first be generous with them be generous and then watch this is the best policy

[50:11]

to ignore them is not good that's the worst policy second worst is trying to control them the best is to watch them just watch them without trying to control them this is the best way Not trying to control them is the best way. But not just not trying to control them. I'm not going to try to control you. I'm leaving Mount Madonna. See you later. I'm giving up trying to control you. And I'm staying here to watch, to see that I don't have control of you. That's my vow. I'm going to stay here and not try to control you and watch you not being under my control.

[51:15]

But still, I ask you to touch with me. Even though I don't do that to control you, I just ask you to tell me what you're doing if you're not in my presence this weekend. I ask you that as a gift to you and to me. It's a gift to you and me. And when you come and tell me, as some of you did last night, it was a gift to me and to you. Oh, it's something for the new people that came. I request that if you're not going to come to some of our that you let me know beforehand that you're not going to be here so I know where you are or, you know, that you're okay. That make sense? One time I was at Tassajara and I think I was doing a workshop and a woman in the workshop said that somebody, another guest at Tassajara had just lost her husband.

[52:27]

And she asked me, she came to me and asked me if I would help her, if I would talk to her about it. And she said, I don't know what to do to help her. What should I do? Well, you could just sit with her and listen to her and hold her hand. And then she came back a day later and said, I did what you told me. I stayed close and did nothing. Your input is better than the way I put it. So now that's what I would say. Just stay close to her and do nothing. Don't try to get her husband back for her, although that would be cool. Then you'd be the messiah. Try to talk her out of it. Just stay close and do nothing. Stay close and give her a big space, which isn't doing anything.

[53:33]

It's already there. And watch. Don't try to control her. Don't try to make her continue to grieve. Don't try to make her stop grieving. Don't try to talk her into or out of anything. Give her to her. Don't do anything. As a gift, generously, don't do anything." And she said the woman was very grateful and seemed to really help her to just be close and do nothing. Okay, so that's giving in relation to the issue of control. And so I'm making this proposal of how to deal with this issue of control. And I know there's lots of challenges to this. I know people tell you. control your children control your dog control your students your company control your husband get your wife under control man get your parents under control people tell you to control people people are trying to control you into controlling people i know that there's pressure on us teachers are told to control their students

[54:58]

If you don't control your students, we're going to fire you, says the administrator or the other teachers. Control these kids. This is tough when they say that to you. You control these kids or we're going to control you out of this school. Control these Zen students or you're not going to be a Zen teacher anymore. Yikes. got some fear to take care of there. And now practice, start by practicing generosity towards any fear that comes up when you're told to control people, to control dogs, to control pests or else. So I welcome your feedback on what I've said and also to bring forth difficult examples Just giving, fearlessness, action in accord with compassion, and giving up trying to control.

[56:10]

You don't have to give up control because you don't have it. We're talking about giving up trying to control and acting like you are so you don't get fired. Some people, if they act like they're trying to control their students, that's good enough. They're with the control program. And if it doesn't work, we can get in more controllers and eventually we'll get these kids under control and they will be dead and we'll be successful. You're welcome to come up here. There's a seat up here. Did you want to say something? Please. Well, when you're ready, you're welcome to come up here. Please come up here. We have one here to talk directly to me, and another one is to talk to me and your friends. And we have extra cushions if you need them, and chairs, and swings, and lots of support equipment if necessary.

[57:16]

And to Paul, we have this for you if you want to use it. She doesn't want to use it. Huh? My example was one morning I was walking my dog at the same time that kids were going to school. So they were sort of behind me and in front of me with parents and so forth. And my dog, she's a girl, a male dog, on a bush. And part of the pee got on the asphalt in the walkway. And so what happened was that I just kept walking. And then I'm realizing that this person is saying, hey, you, hey, you. And I thought, I didn't even think it was me. But then I, yes, you.

[58:21]

And I said, yes. And then she said, your dog peed on the bush. And I said, I know. And then she said, but my child has to walk there. And I want you to watch it and not have that happen because then I have to deal with this stuff on her shoulder. Thank you. And then I left. It totally disarmed her, but that was not in my control. I just said, thank you. She had a concern. You weren't in control either. No. And you weren't trying to control yourself, it sounds like. No. And out popped, thank you. Yeah. You meant it. I did. Yeah, great. And she was disarmed temporarily. She was. Although you weren't trying to. No. No. Was it worth the trip? I have a female dog that I live with who

[59:38]

Like a yogi, she does a handstand when she pees. She goes up on her front paws and does what's called bhakasana, which is a kind of handstand when she does it. Pardon? No. Well, of course the pee does go down. Because of gravity. But before it goes down, it goes out and down. So she does this because she's tiny and that way she can pee higher. So if you watch dogs, if one dog pees, the other one tries to pee up on top of it. So this way she can pee up on top of taller dogs. And if she's walking with other dogs and they pee, she pees on top of it. So the female dogs sometimes also try to establish these territories, right, by peeing. That's what it's about.

[60:41]

And she's, I think partly because she was spayed, she has a little bit more of the masculine territory thing. So even big male dogs, they pee, you know, they go like this and then they pee up about around here. But when she has her hand stand, she gets up about even with it. Does this work for you? Would you like a microphone? Want this? I'll accept it. Yeah, you can use it as you wish. Control is a big subject. I'll try to limit it. You'll try to control the subject? Yeah, because when I get started talking, For long reasons, nobody needs to be here. We don't know what's going to happen. It can get to be too much. Yeah. Regarding controlling students, from 67 to 73, I taught in Flatlands, Oakland, which at that time was almost entirely African-American, a little bit of Hispanic-American.

[61:56]

They put me in the sixth grade. After a month, climbing in and out of the windows. They decided I was trying really hard, so they had me assist two other second grade teachers and then I got a second grade. It took me five years to learn how to control second graders, but it wasn't control learning the dynamics, so we were all working together. I was finally able to do that, so we were all working together. But that business about control your students or you're going to get kicked out was an issue I kept bringing up to them, threatening them that they would get somebody worse than me if we didn't all try together. Along with a lot of other things to try to bring in reality. I am respectful of you saying that we don't control and can't control, but in terms of my feeling of trying to learn how to be kind and hedging my bets about how to do it,

[63:09]

Regarding the activities of Mr. Cheney, Vice President Cheney, watching, that's certainly, I think, necessary. So I recommend the DVD of the frontline program, Cheney's Law. And, however, I don't know how to solve the problem, which I think is a really in terms of eventual exposure to fear that we all may have if some of his programs continue along the lines he seems to want, unless we assert very clearly habeas corpus, a barrier between this country under any circumstances engaging in torture. Can I say something right now? Boundaries. We'll talk about that. Yeah. So she's suggesting some boundaries, like habeas corpus is a boundary.

[64:15]

So I'm glad that we can continue. That's really all I have to say. Okay. Thank you. Thank you for your gift. So from being close to Mr. Cheney and watching him... I do think it's a good thing to feel warmly towards him, but I do think that there need to be boundaries to what he's doing, and I think it's really serious. Yeah. Did you hear that? Yeah. So I have boundaries on the list there. under giving, in relationship to giving. And we could go there now. Shall we go there now? So, but I suggest starting with when you see some person, for example,

[65:17]

Richard Cheney, you start with giving him a spacious meadow. You start with being generous towards him. Giving Cheney to Cheney. Start with giving. The proposal being if you wish for the of Dick Cheney, you start with giving. Giving will eventually transform him in the way you want or not so much the way you want but in a good way give his programs to his programs as an act of giving and his programs and he will become treasures to you the giver the generous one they will become treasures you will appreciate them and from the giving them the spaciousness and watching and being close as a gift more gifts will come and one of the gifts that will very likely come one of the gifts that will very likely come almost for sure to come is the gift of boundaries.

[66:39]

Yes? I think boundaries have to be set regardless of how far he's gone, of how far he has progressed, of how far he... I agree. You set the boundaries, you can set the boundaries before the person has been transformed. Yeah. You're practicing giving with the person. They have not yet been transformed, as you can see. Transformed by the giving or not, you still will set boundaries. Now this is also true in traditional Zen practice, that the teacher and the student set boundaries together, whether the student has been transformed by the practice of giving of the teacher or not. But the teacher is supposed to demonstrate setting boundaries as gifts, setting boundaries as part of the basic program of staying close to the student and not doing anything.

[67:54]

That's the basic. The basis is staying close and not doing anything. The student to the student and realizing that this student is a treasure. And you can see that. in generosity. Now if you see it immediately, then generosity is already functioning. If you don't see it, practice giving towards the student. I got Dick Cheney as my student. Practice generosity towards him until I see he's a treasure. And then give my treasure, my dear wonderful student, give him a boundary as a gift. to help our relationship develop further. Whether he has been transformed or not. Even if he has been transformed, I still might put a boundary up to go deeper. So it isn't just so-called, I don't know what, retarded students that get boundaries. So children get one kind of boundary.

[68:57]

We give one kind of boundary to our spouse. We give other kinds of boundaries to our spouse. or our parents, different boundaries at different levels of development. In the final formal Zen training, lots of formal boundaries are set up to realize intimacy between the teacher and the student. Formal ceremonies, which are done this way, not that way. And that way, not this way. In detail, boundaries, like you go up to here, you don't go beyond this point. You go around this way, not that way. You use this foot, not that foot. You use this hand, not that hand. You use this many fingers, not that many fingers. You stand in this posture, not that posture. Boundaries are given as gifts so that the student can learn how to relate to the boundaries and the teacher can be there with them

[70:04]

And working on these boundaries together, they realize their intimacy. And a new student cannot deal with all this. The advanced student has more boundaries than a new student would ever wish. I'm telling you about this now not to scare you away, but to tell you that as you advance in practice, you might get more and more boundaries. So boundaries aren't just for children or people who are at a low level of conversion to compassion. And when you give boundaries, you don't necessarily appreciate them. And they may think that they aren't gifts. They may think you're trying to control them. And I don't know if Bruce wants to tell a story, but he could. What do you feel? Want to tell a story? Want to tell a story? Yeah. He told me a story, which he might want to tell you. How's it going, Roberta, in terms of hearing? How's the hearing going?

[71:09]

A lot better? Okay, good. And Leon, how's it going? Good. Good? Great. Welcome to all the new friends and welcome to all the not-so-new friends. I love my friends. I was speaking with Reb in the Santa Barbara retreat. It was about a month ago. I learned something. And I have a 10-year-old daughter named Daphne. And I've spent years to get Daphne to get up in the morning and get ready for school. We haven't had one day where that worked. And she's very bright and very capable. So I shared this teaching with her. The teaching was, I said that when I tell you to get up in the morning and how to do it, it's the gift of your daddy. Your daddy's giving you a gift. It's called the teaching of how to get up in the morning and get ready for school. But I learned this.

[72:10]

I said, it may not seem like a gift to you. It may seem like I'm trying to control you. I tell you when to get up, how to get up, what to do, when to do it. I evaluate. I'm blaming. And she became very tender and very open and she said, yes, daddy, it feels more like that. So I said, there's also a part of the teaching I left out. I said, I didn't tell you that I love you whether you get ready or you don't get ready. And she was very affected by that. She didn't know that. So I said, I do, I love you. But I'm going to keep giving you this gift and this teaching, whether you do it or you don't do it. About three days later was the first time she got ready exactly the way she's supposed to get ready. And we were driving to school. I said, Daphne, I noticed you got ready. So I love you whether you get ready or you don't get ready.

[73:13]

I just want you to know Daddy noticed that. And she just smiled at me and she said, Daddy, thank you for your gift. So I began to understand how relationship transforms things. Thank you. Thanks for practicing the teaching. Any other difficult examples of where we feel pressured to try to control somebody? Or boundary gifts that are difficult to see or give that you wish to bring forward? Okay.

[74:37]

Hi. It's a little more scary sitting over here than just looking at you. If you want to use this, you can use this. When you asked about difficult boundaries... Does she speak up? Can you hear me? If I eat the microphone, will it go that way? In some ways this is a really not important... I'd like you to speak up, please. Rev... I'm trying to control, just to get. Yeah. I'll love you whether you speak up or not.

[75:44]

But I will notice. Yeah. I'm watching. Yeah. So does this work? Yes. Okay. Okay. I'm feeling a little awkward because in some ways I feel like this little problem I came up to share is really a little problem. And it's one that kind of comes up for me a lot though. It's a question of how I can not try to control my partner sometimes when she likes to talk more than I like to listen. And sometimes I really want to be compassionate and I really am compassionate sometimes. Sometimes I just want to be compassionate. But a lot of times I can really listen and just cherish her. Just cherish what she wants to share with me in that moment.

[76:49]

And sometimes I have evaluations about what she wants to share with me. I also sometimes share boundaries with her. I'll tell her I'm full. And so I'm just wanting to hear your feedback about maybe ways that I could be more willing to hear the gifts of her sharing and or be more generous with the boundaries that I choose to share with her. Does that make sense? It's just a practice that I have where I really, I love her and I want to hear what she has to share with me and sometimes I want quiet. So when she's talking to you, you want to appreciate her.

[78:08]

And sometimes you do appreciate her while she's talking. And then sometimes you feel like you would like her to stop talking. I think there's two kind of different ways that this happens to you. Sometimes one or the other of us will say, could I talk with you? And there we're just really, I'm committed to listening to her and being there with her and holding her in her sharing. Other times we're eating breakfast and we haven't really agreed that I'm going to listen and that's a little different. So, if she starts talking to you without asking you beforehand, if you're up for listening to her, then it's more difficult for you. So, this is kind of a boundary, it's kind of, in some sense, an initiation boundary, or a gate, where you would like her to ask you, before she starts talking to you, whether you'd like to listen.

[79:16]

so you could have a boundary or a form with her which is, I'd like you to ask me before you start talking to me if I'm ready and willing to listen. And I often will be, of course. But sometimes But generally speaking, I don't want you to start talking to me. I would like you to be more formal with me. This is an example of using a formality with someone to realize your intimacy. And I remember one time Suzuki Roshi said, early on in my relationship with him, he said, for acquaintances, we may not need formality. We can be informal. But for intimate relationships, we need formality. And I thought, oh, I thought it would be... Like with acquaintances, you have to say, how do you do?

[80:24]

Very nice to meet you. How are you feeling? But actually that's kind of informal because you haven't agreed on that form or anything like that. You can pretty much try whatever you want. I shouldn't say pretty much try whatever you want, but just follow the usual system of things and that works out kind of okay because it's just an acquaintance and you don't assume that you can put your finger in their ear. You don't assume that you can adjust their tie. You don't assume that. But with somebody you're close to, you might think you can adjust their tie or put your finger in their ear. You think so. Like children think that they can bite their mother's nipple without asking. Mommy, can I bite your nipple? Well, no, I don't want you to. But they don't ask. They just go ahead. They assume. And they bite. This is a biting thing, too, you know. So when we're close, we have to be formal. Or like I also say, you know, like... For an acquaintance, if you want to have lunch with an acquaintance or you want to talk to an acquaintance, you make an appointment.

[81:30]

You say, could we have lunch sometime? You ask them, you make an appointment. But with somebody you live with, you think you don't have to make appointments with them. Because they got their life, you know, they're living their life, you know, and then you want to have lunch with them, but you didn't tell them beforehand that, you know, it doesn't work. But you think because you're close to them, which you're right, you are, you think you don't have to ask them. And with acquaintance, if you understood that with an acquaintance you're also intimate with them, you'd realize you have to make an appointment with them. So that's a funny thing about when you're living with somebody, you think you don't have to do this. Sometimes I have assistants at Zen Center, people who... live with me in this, particularly at Tassajara, they practically live in my room with me because they're in there almost, they're in there, you know, many hours a day doing things with me.

[82:31]

But it's their job, you know. And because of their job, they're intimate with me. But it doesn't work for me if they just start talking to me about whatever they want to talk to me about. But since they're in the room, they sometimes think, well, we're in the room, you know, together. They might say, well, what do you think of blah, blah? But nobody else can just walk into the room and say, what do you think? But they can because they're in the room. Because they're so intimate with me, they can talk to me about anything they want, anytime. But that disturbs the intimacy. So I say to him, you know, you have this privileged situation of being in a room with me all the time, so you could talk to me any time, but actually you should make an appointment with me just like everybody else, even though you're in the room with me. But you think you don't have to because you're in the room. Whereas everybody else who comes in the room can talk to me about what they want to, but they come in on an appointment.

[83:34]

They say, could I talk to you? And I say, yes, you can come and talk to me. So they do come and talk to me. We have some intimacy. But the person who's even more intimate thinks they don't have to, that there's no need, but actually there's more of a need because we're so close. So even with the person who you know you're intimate with, I shouldn't say even with, but especially with that person. You need more formality than with other people because other people will not walk into your house, sit down, generally speaking, and start talking to you. They won't do that. But even the person who's already in the house should not do that. I shouldn't say, I won't take them out. They shouldn't do it. If he does that, that disturbs the intimacy because if you realize intimacy, you would realize, This person wants me to ask them if I can talk to them. I can feel that. You know, they're reading a newspaper or they're thinking about something and they want me to talk to them.

[84:41]

And especially something important. You need to make an appointment with the person. But we think we don't have to. So with my daughter, you know, as she got older, she said, what do you want for birthday? What do you want for Father's Day? And I would say, I would say a walk and a talk. Because she would, especially during her teenage years, she would never really talk to me. We'd start to talk about, you know, and the telephone would ring. to eat, you know, and there's always something to do besides have this talk, this intimate talk. It's easy to veer off into something else. We both want it, but it's hard to stay there. So I say, I ask for a walk and a talk. The walk, we start walking, and we start walking, you know, this, this, first of all, this is just this

[85:46]

this teenage chatter going on, you know, she's not really talking to me, she's just... she's just expressing nervousness of being with her father. with no way. We're out there, you know, in the field or on the hillside and she can't get away from me. So she tries to talk herself away from me. She wants to be with me. She wants to give me my Father's Day present, but she also wishes she could be someplace else because it's awfully intense to be with your father all alone in the mountains with no entertainment. But then after a while she gets tired of yacking away and she becomes quiet. So there are the two of us walking quietly in the mountains. And then she starts talking. And then she tells me this thing, which are not meant to distract, but are meant to show her father what he wanted to see, which is, what is his daughter becoming?

[86:50]

Who is she really? And she finally tells me, And then we become silent again, go back down, and she starts yakking again. So I need that formality with her, otherwise she just veers away. She's just, you know, she's tired. Now she's got a little boy to take care of and she's got work. And she's running, she's in debt, you know. She's got quite a few walks and talks that have not been done. So I have a lot of stored up formal intimacy time with her. And with my wife, too, I say, may I talk to you about something? And she says, yeah. But sometimes she says, no, I don't want to now. I can't deal with that now. I do want to talk to her about some things and it does require quite a bit of formal structure to make those conversations occur. And I just learned that in 33 years.

[87:54]

I've learned that that's even though it seems strange, you have to do it. And it's necessary in order for intimacy. Boundaries are necessary to fully realize intimacy. Intimacy is there already. We need boundaries. We need formality to make it real. And part of the way it makes it real is can you stand to put a boundary up with that person? Are you intimate enough to set a boundary up? Because with friends you don't feel intimate enough to establish a boundary. Even at a cocktail party it's hard. anyway, but by walking to the other side of the room. So can you do that with somebody? It's not easy. It takes a lot of... It's a very intimate process to set up various boundaries, physical, psychological, vocal, space, all these boundaries.

[89:01]

So yeah, so you can work on that. And again, one other phase is I'll tell you later. Yes. I just got an insight about the courage that I need. upright because in general we have a very good relationship about sharing and having boundaries and sometimes what's hard for me is I'm thinking a few weeks ago we were taking a walk and she was talking to me and I was talking with her but then there came a time for a while so I could really take in the landscape where we were and the energy of being on the earth And I said, sweetie? And she said, I know, you want me to shut up. And that's harder for me to deal with. I feel a real sadness because of some of her karma.

[90:07]

She doesn't always feel like she is worthy of being listened to, worthy of taking time. And so I'm that place in her that will hear my boundaries as not caring or that she's not important. And I don't want to express that she's not important because she is important to me. And I also can't truly be there for her if I'm not available. So how do I write with my energy and my availability and be compassionate with her sense of that she's not important?

[91:15]

Well, you could check, working backwards, you could check after you give the gift of a boundary whether she is on board and will support that and wants to have that boundary. That's one thing. So you include her in the boundary setting. So you might say, well, I love you and I appreciate you. Well, that's not very appreciative. I would like to set a boundary here. I respect you. I don't want to say it, but what do you say? If she does it with you, it's more likely that she's not going to feel disinherited from the boundary setting process. Another thing is when you said she was talking and you felt okay, and you wanted some silence to take in the landscape. I thought you were going to say, I wanted some silence. When you said, to take in, I thought you wanted to take in what she was saying.

[92:17]

Someone can be talking to you. They're talking to me, but they ask me to stop so what I say can sink in. They really want to hear what I'm saying, but if I keep talking, it doesn't sink in, so they can stop me. They can make this signal, and I'll stop. because they take in what I just said. So it's appreciation. And then I can also learn that even if people don't ask, they probably do want me to stop, to let what just was said sink in. And sometimes what they do is they cry, which is a signal for me to shut up. they're crying as a signal to me, would you stop now and let this sink in? This was very moving. And the tears tell me that let it do its job.

[93:23]

It's working very nicely. And if they want more, they can ask. But already we've got a lot happening here. So I don't feel... And if they stop me, It's a gift to let it have its space. And the other thing is, which I was about to say, is that when setting a boundary comes up, you often feel afraid at that point. So you can actually share that you're afraid to set a boundary. but you can work and help the other person work with your fear of setting a boundary, of asserting that you wish to set a boundary as a gift. But even though you have this thing of you want to set it as a gift, you're still a little afraid to give this gift because you know it might hurt the person.

[94:25]

Also they might, yeah, if they're hurt, they might become afraid then if you set the boundary. And then if they become afraid, then they might become violent and so on. So setting boundaries is dangerous. It's dangerous to give the gift of expressing, asserting that you feel a need to set a boundary here. The other person might become frightened and violent. It's possible. Or hurt and frightened. or just hurt and frightened. That's enough, right? It can happen. That's why it's good to invite them in the process and do it together. Don't do it unilaterally. Now again, if the person can't understand how to participate in it, you can still offer that you'd like to have the boundary, but it really isn't working very well if they don't agree on it. So if we set a boundary with whoever, and they are not yet evolved enough to realize that they're invited to set it with you, which means it might be somewhat different than what you originally suggested.

[95:39]

I think part of being tender is to, this is the boundary I wish to set up, but I invite you to set it up with me, and if you wish to change it, this is possible. Matter of fact, your suggestion might be a better boundary than I thought of anyway. How about doing it this way, Mommy? Darling. How about doing it this way? Citizen. You know? And you might say, actually, that's better than I thought of. Wow, this is amazing. You're intelligent. That's part of it, too. But the way of being tender with your friends is to be tender with the boundary, that you're not holding the boundary tightly, and the other person is invited to set it with you. So a lot of times, again, student-teacher relationship, the student often comes and asks the teacher what the form of the relationship is going to be, what is it supposed to be. And I, generally speaking, participate in forming the formality, of creating the formality together.

[96:46]

So it's not me imposing the formal quality of student-teacher relationship upon them with the power of the tradition. I think the tradition is about showing the student how to create the tradition, showing the student how to co-create the formal structure of the relationship. And as time goes on, in more and more detailed and minute to the form, bringing in traditional forms and being creative with them together. So set these up together with her. Don't do them unilaterally and they might not come out quite the way you had in mind originally. but they will be better when you do them together than the ones you were going to unilaterally set up.

[97:49]

Even if it comes out almost exactly the same form as what you thought, it's better together, and oftentimes the form will change and it will be better. This is a major area to do it. It's talking spaces and one of the major places to do it. And then you can stay or return to your original position. Another quality is when you express a boundary, is there fear? And is there some tension around it? Is there some charge on it? And are you trying to control the person with the boundary? If you're trying to control them with the boundary, And if it's not a gift, they probably will understand that you're trying to control them. And they will not feel that you're being tender with them if you're trying to control them. They will not feel that you're upright if you're trying to control them.

[98:54]

They will not feel that you're peaceful if you're trying to control them. They will not feel that you're harmonious if you're... They really won't. Even if they say they do, they won't, because you're not. Trying to control people is not tender and respectful and peaceful. It's kind of rough. It's kind of unpeaceful. It's not harmonious. It could be honest. It could be honest. But it wouldn't be honest unless you say, I'm trying to control you because I don't respect you and I'm trying to be rough with you and unpeaceful and disharmonious and not upright. That's why I'm trying to control you. That would be honest. So if you said all that, the person would give you a gift. Thank you. That was good. And yeah, and you didn't control me, but you gave me this wonderful gift. Thank you. And I'm glad to help you with this problem you've got. So yeah, watch when you set the boundary.

[99:58]

And again, if you just set it and you're really inviting them to participate, that's a good sign. If you want to set it and get it established before they have anything to say, it's not a good sign. this is an offering, what do you want to do with it? And they say, well, I'd like to break it up in little pieces and throw it in the garbage can. If it's a gift, that's fine. A gift, if they destroy your boundary, it's still a perfectly good boundary gift. And if you give the gift of a boundary and they completely crunch it and toss it away, the giving has, and you're okay with it, the giving has been successful. And then they're watching to see I destroyed it. Now I'm looking to see, now how are you? And they see you're just glowing with happiness of having given the gift. And they say, wow, that really was a gift. My God, it was a gift because I could throw it away and you really just, you weren't trying to control me. Try another one.

[101:00]

So you actually get what you get, the happiness which you were hoping to get, by setting the boundary even though the person destroyed it. And then out of that happiness you may have another one to give. Might be just like the last one quite different. There's a story about one of the great teacher-student relationships was a teacher named Nagarjuna and his disciple was Nagarjuna means, I think, born of the Nagas. the serpents who, they were these beings who took care of the perfect wisdom scriptures. And he was born of them. They revealed to him the truth of the perfect wisdom scriptures in the tradition. His name was Nagarjuna, one of the great teachers in the history of the tradition. And his students was named Aryadeva, which means noble deity.

[102:05]

And Nagarjuna was in southern India at the time and up in northern India there was a very powerful magician who was defeating all the Buddhist scholars in debate. And so they sent word to Nagarjuna to come and help, you know, debate these magicians and save the tradition. But Nagarjuna was busy with something or other at the time, writing some treatise that we still have probably. But anyway, he said, you go. You can handle this guy. And he said, by the way, on your trip, you may be asked to give a gift. And it may be difficult gift to give. But if you give it, it will come back to you. But if you regret it, you'll lose it. It's a basic principle of giving. If it's really a gift, you'll give it back.

[103:09]

But if you give it and then you have some expectation of what's going to be done with it, then it's a loss. It won't come back to you. Because you're exiling yourself from the channel of giving. So he's walking along up to northern India and a blind beggar says, you know, Hey, hey, give me one of your eyes. And this is, of course, before techniques, but somehow Aryadeva got his eyeball out of his head and gave it to this guy. this amazing gift. And he walked on, and the guy, again, without modern surgical procedures, the eyeball didn't get it. He wanted it, he thought it would help him, but it didn't. He couldn't get it in his eye. And he got very angry, and he smashed the eyeball on his stump. And when Aryadeva saw that, he regretted having given it.

[104:15]

He regretted seeing his gift, his eyeballs being smashed I guess if the guy had taken care of the eyeball nicely, he would have felt okay. But seeing his smash, he regretted it. And he never got his eye back. And then his name changed from Aryadeva to Kama, which means one-eyed deity. But anyway, he learned. He learned about giving. And he went up to northern India and defeated all the magicians in debate. And they all became happy disciples. So it's a tough lesson that we will learn if we practice giving. That when we give with some expectation, that then nullifies the giving and we lose what we gave when we have expectation.

[105:22]

So then we will learn. Oh, there was expectation there. Oh, there was expectation. I set the boundary with the expectation. Rather than, here's the boundary, now let's see what happens. Watch. Here's the boundary, now watch. And then when it gets crunched, go. Wow, I'm okay with that. Or, here's the boundary, what do you want to do with it? And you say, I'd like to turn it this way. Okay, yeah, all right, okay, this is good. I can go with this. Or, oh no, my precious boundary, don't tilt it that way. Well, it sounds like it's not a gift. I wanted to give it as a gift, but now I see by the way they manipulate it, it's not a gift. It was a control thing. Want to trade places with her? You just turned around to look.

[106:24]

What did you look at? Just to see if it was time for breakfast. I don't want to talk past breakfast. Okay. Want to use this? Okay. Can everybody hear me? I'll use this. Can anybody not hear? Can anybody hear me? Okay. Well, I have three young boys, and they hit each other, so I must control that. You think so? I think so. That's your story. That's my story. That's your karma. Yes. That's your karma, right? And there's two now. It's not okay if they crumple that gift. They must obey. That's your story? Yes. Are you tender with that story? Not really. Good girl. What I really want is peaceful, loving family.

[107:25]

Right. And that's what I really want. Right. So I feel I've set boundaries, and they crumple them, and then I get hurt. Or I control. I set a control. Just a second. If they crumple your boundaries, Okay. But that's semantics, really, whether I call it control or boundaries. No, no. If they crumple your boundaries, then you don't have them under control. Yeah, I don't have them under control. Which is good. Okay. Yeah, I have no control. That's good? Yeah. Because you give your... Then they crumple them. And they see that... And then they see, does she love us after we crumple it? And... My nine-year-old said I ruined his life. So that's his attempt to set a boundary. Yeah. That's his gift to you. Yeah. Now, he may not realize it, but that he gave you that gift. This is his boundary. Like, you've gone so far as to ruin my life.

[108:26]

Now, can you see that as a boundary? Can you be tender with that message? Yes. Great. Actually, that really hurt. I was very tender with that. Yeah. But... So I just want to say that if he can express that to you and you can be tender with it, then he realizes that he can set that and you can join him in that and you keep loving him. So he gets to express himself and say these outrageous things and see that you keep loving him. That's very good. Yeah, that actually hurtful, but that was very good. But the constant crumbling up the boundaries that I set Well, there it is right there, that I set. I'm recommending you do not set boundaries mommy laterally. But if one is three years old, you come into an agreement of whether or not to hit your brother with a three-year-old. Yeah, it is hard with a three-year-old, it's true. The nine-year-old, however, shouldn't be much of a problem to have him participate.

[109:32]

So what about for the three-year-old who you can't Explain to him that he has the rights to set these boundaries with you. How are we going to do that? This is a nice problem for us. Well, I put him in his room. That's possible. But how can you put him in his room with him having a sense that he cooperates? Room change. Oh, see, that's interesting because I put him in his room and he tries to come out of his room, so I stand in the doorway and he hits me and he says, I hate you. And I just stand there until he's done hitting me and telling me that he hates me. And then I say, he usually falls on the floor crying. I say, would you like a hug? And then he sits in my lap. And it takes 20 minutes. It's a long process. It's a big gift. I don't like doing it. I think it's because you, you know, you're not realizing that you're giving them gifts.

[110:37]

It's making me feel anxious. What is making you feel anxious? That they're not listening, that they're not listening or following the boundaries. So I'm suggesting to you that even with a three-year-old, that you develop a sense, even though it's hard to see how he could understand, you develop a sense of setting boundaries with him and the other boys together. Setting boundaries come from, I'm recommending, giving rather than from control. And even control as a gift. And you can tell the difference between control as a gift or boundaries as a gift by whether you have an expectation of the so-called attempt to control or the setting boundary.

[111:40]

So another way in gift giving is that when you give a gift you do not think that it's one-sided. You see that the other person is giving you the gift of letting you give them a gift. And if you spend 20 minutes with your boy in gift-giving, you will not... It will assuage your... And you will be happy spending 20 minutes of giving with him. And in that giving, you'll realize he's giving to you. He's letting you be this giving mother, which is your joy. And he's doing that for you. You can't do this without him. And you can set boundaries with him. Understand how you're doing with them. If you understand how you're doing with them, he can understand. And the older boys, you can actually talk about it. You can actually say, I'd like to set this boundary. What would you do? And they can say back. And you can negotiate with these different boundary suggestions. And their suggestion may be, That's still a participation.

[112:43]

You're still inviting them. They still feel respected. They can tell the difference between, this is the boundary and I'm offering this boundary, what do you think? They can tell the difference between that. And they want to test whether that's a real invitation by seeing if they can do what they think you wouldn't want them to do with the boundary. Make a really special little boundary, you know, like a special little suit that you make for him. It's kind of a boundary. and you give it to them and you've really put your whole heart into it and if you put your whole heart into it and they destroy it you'll be fine if your whole heart is in it because you've already completely realized happiness already but just to make sure that you are wholehearted offer it to him and invite him to participate and sometimes they will test to see if they can destroy what you gave them and you still are happy. Then they know you really weren't trying. So if you ask people to do things, especially children, whose most important thing is whether you love them or not, then that's the main thing they want to verify.

[113:52]

Then they kind of know that if they go along with what you say, they can't be sure you love them for the fact that they go along with what you say or you love them regardless of whether they go along with it or not. So they want to find out. And sometimes they have other reasons than finding out about your love. That's just the most important thing. They have some various trips that they want to go on, various things they might not accord with. Like one of your boys maybe want to be with you and you'd like to, in a certain way, and you'd like to not be with him that way because you have to do something else, so you want to set a boundary. And he's testing that. And so again, you offer that boundary and you actually feel, I invite him to respond to that. And he may not go along with it, but I invite his contribution. I invite his struggle. and I will give him another gift in relationship to what he gives me.

[114:54]

But this is a giving process. And if you enjoy it, it's giving, and if you don't enjoy it, you haven't found the giving. I enjoy setting boundaries together with people. Really? Yes. I enjoy it. It's difficult, but I enjoy it. There's fear potentially all around it. because again they can feel their fears can come up and then their violence can come up in me bringing forth a boundary gift. But if I'm giving it as a gift when their violence comes it's difficult but I'm happy. I enjoy it. I feel like life of our relationship and that's what a lot of people do is they stay away from setting boundaries because they think some violence might come so they stay away but the life is over there they're getting they're veering away from the life of the relationship because if you go to that place it's so vital that people become afraid and potentially at risk of violence so let's just stay away from this

[116:05]

You know? We can think of horrible examples of this, of where people do not set limits because they're afraid of violence and then violence is done to them. But again, setting limits not in a generous way is not much fun at all. And often you get the violence anyway. But if you set boundaries in a generous way, you still may get the violence. But eventually, The person you're saying the boundaries are, realize they're doing it with you, and they will become unafraid and nonviolent. That's my amazing proposal, and it's getting really close to breakfast. It's astonishing, actually. I'm going to have to think about that. Yeah, and please, and this is a kind of a form I'm setting up I invite you to set it up with me, and if you disagree, I invite you to destroy it. Okay. So it's getting close to the wonderful breakfast, which probably, since it's 10 o'clock, is probably very attractive.

[117:17]

Just now, I think they'll give it to you, and then maybe you could come back here at 11. If you're not going to come back, please tell me. And we can start with quiet sitting at 11 o'clock. Thank you very much.

[117:34]

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