I kind of would like people, there's kind of an open spot there. I wonder if we could kind of fill in that area with people. Yes? Do you think it would help, Justine, if you came closer? Yes, could you come closer? Yeah, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I've spoken of this to some of my friends and to my spouse.

[01:44]

I'd like to present it here. I'm one of 10 people that puts on a fundraiser in Santa Barbara, and we've been doing it for 10 years. We each take a tenth of the job of putting this on, and my part is to be the commodity shopper. And so for a few weeks before the event, I start collecting napkins and plastic utensils and things of that sort. This year when I turned in my receipts, I got an email back from the representative of the food bank asking me to identify 12 packages of spoons that cost $275. So I did that. Then there was something on the receipt at the same shop that she did not recognize. I didn't either, but guessed that it was the paper cups for water.

[02:49]

So I responded to her as quickly as I could. I didn't get a further question from her. But the next day, one of my colleagues telephoned me around dinner time and said that the person from the food bank had called her with concern about my receipts. And so she said, what do you think it was? And I said, I think it was the 2,000 plastic spoons and the 2,000 paper cups. I feel that fear of loss of reputation because she didn't accept my first answer and then didn't speak directly to me again, but instead went to my colleague. So that's kind of as of Thursday afternoon, and here I am learning about relationships. So you're feeling some fear?

[04:07]

Yes. That someone might imply that you were, that you acted inappropriately? Has implied. You feel has implied? Yes. I can make up a story for why she would do it. And one story that I can make up is that for her boss, it looks like she's paying attention. So I can make up that story with the first request, not with then going to one of my colleagues. So I don't have a good story for that. you have a kind of a story of unskillfulness. I do. On her part. I do. And perhaps on mine.

[05:10]

Maybe my receipts aren't clear enough, but I don't modify them in any way. You know, it's out of one of those cash registers that puts ten of this and four of that, Do you think it would be helpful to offer the gift of inquiring whether everything's cleared up now? Yes. You think it might be helpful to offer that gift? Yes. I think so too, possibly, if it can be a gift. And then, well, you know, depending on the response to that, you might ask for another gift too. For example, you might ask your colleague, both talk to the person who called the colleague and ask the colleague how do they feel about this.

[06:14]

Not in the sense of controlling your reputation, but in offering the gift of clarifying the situation. And even to see if you could say to your colleague, you know, that you're really not trying to control your reputation, but you'd like to give the gift of saying, I need this to be clarified, and I need to know how you feel about this now. So it's mainly her, probably. She's the key person. Does she feel clear, and does she feel that your conduct was appropriate? Or is there anything that you could have done differently that you'd like her to tell you if there's something she would have liked you to do differently, like be clearer about the receipt or something? The representative or my colleague? Your colleague. I see. Because your representative I don't think is going to go any further than your colleague. I wouldn't think, because she's probably done her job now, right?

[07:21]

As far as she, you know, maybe overdone it. Yeah, but there is next time, and we'll all work together Yeah, and you might want to clarify that too. Does she feel like, not so much that she trusts you, because next time you could pull a fast one potentially, not that she trusts you, but maybe that you have a way, this is again an opportunity to set some boundaries or some forms. Mm-hmm. that you would like to discuss with her how she would proceed in the future if, with you anyway, if there was some unclarity in her understanding, how would she proceed? And then she could tell you how she would suggest and see if you agree with that. You might not be able to agree, but you might want her to come to you first rather than go to other people. And she might not be able to agree to that, but at least she could bring it up. So you can work with her on that and

[08:24]

and have some understanding, and this is a way for you to become... Although she may not presently imply anything untrue or unestablished about you, still there's the issue of being intimate with her. Yes. And whether she's working there or not, sometime you're going to have to work it out with her. So you might work out with both of them, two different understandings, but both about how to, you know, what form are you going to agree to practice with each other. And I think you would have preferred that she come to you if she was unclear. I think I would too. And so that would be my, I would need that. Or to tell me that she's going to go to somebody else, which takes courage on her part to say, I don't want to talk to you, I want to talk to your colleague. But then you can, again, if she would tell you that, then you have recourse to talk to her about that and offer her another gift.

[09:34]

So you have these two people, I think, that you can make some offering to, and then you can watch as you offer. Is there some element of trying to control things? Because this gift is not the gift to control your reputation. That's not a gift. It's the gift of saying what you'd like. Which might even be that you'd like your reputation to be good. Yeah. but as a gift not to get it. Just to say, I just happen to be somebody who would like my reputation to be reflective of the truth, which I think might be a good one in this case, because I think I was up and up. Maybe I wasn't detailed in my descriptions, but I think I was, yeah, I think that was pretty good, but I welcome your feedback. You might say, well, yeah, but I think... I want you to be more detailed next time." And you might say, okay. Or you might not. But the main thing is to want to have a good reputation is fine.

[10:41]

To try to get it is controlling and not giving. but to give that you'd like it, to say that. I'd like a good reputation. I'd like to do a good job. I'd like to be appreciated. I'd like all that. This is good, but I'm not trying to get it. And I'd like clarity, but I'm not trying to get it. I'm giving you the information I'd like it, and I'd make an effort to promote it, but these are gifts in that direction, but not control moves. And then you can watch to see if you feel that that's really what's going on with you. My first impression, my first activity in my regular version of myself, not my higher version of myself, was to say, okay, then here's the shopping cart. I'm never doing this job again. And then I was able to be tender and honest and calm a little bit and talk to my husband and talk to my friends and now I'm talking to you.

[11:56]

So time has been helpful. that I left Friday morning to come here so that I didn't, like, give her the keys to the shopping cart. Whatever that would have solved, you know, not much. Well, it would have set a whole new thing in motion. Right. I don't know what that would have been, but... Yeah, but this issue, which is important to me, would not have been touched by that. Right, you still have this work still sitting there, kind of requesting to be done, which I hope you can find a way to do it as a gift, not as a controlling thing. And you might not be able to, but then you can say, you can even tell these people involved, I feel some kind of like I'm trying to get you to whatever, and this is not what I'm here for. So I just want to confess that and I'll try to say it again as a gift to our relationship.

[12:59]

Thank you. Thank you. And there was a request to discuss the activity of setting boundaries as gifts, setting boundaries to promote intimacy, and in particular to bring up the fear that comes up around setting the boundaries. So setting boundaries, there is some danger around setting boundaries. And, for example, there's a danger to hurt people's feelings. There's a danger, yeah, there's a danger of hurting people's feelings. There's a danger of frightening people. I should say, are people becoming frightened by the boundary? And then, of course, once they're afraid, there's a danger of violence.

[14:02]

So setting boundaries... has those dangers. They don't always manifest, but there's some possibility of them happening. And then I wrote also on the other side, opportunities. There's great opportunities in setting boundaries, opportunities of intimacy. Boundaries can clarify situations and make people feel more at peace and more, I don't know, at ease, actually, once they're established and people particularly people if they feel like they have some participation in establishing them. People feel more safe and then dare to be more intimate once this work is done. And this is, as you have heard me talk about before, this place that is surrounded by danger and opportunity is the Chinese character for crisis is these two characters for danger and opportunity.

[15:04]

Danger does not always go with fear, but often does. So turning points, there's often dangers at turning points, right? You can fall over, sprain your ankle, step on somebody else's foot, whack somebody with your elbow as you turn around. There's dangers in these turning points, but turning points also have great opportunities. And then so therefore the places of great opportunity are places for danger, and places of danger are places often of fear. But again, if you care for the setting properly, The setting, of course, is supposedly in relationship to what's most important. Everything you're doing is supposed to be, has the potential of being what we call justified or aligned with what's most important.

[16:10]

So now I want to set a boundary to promote what's most important. However, now that I'm setting the boundary, I know this opportunity of promoting what's the most important. For example, intimacy and close friendship with all different relationships. But there's danger. There is danger. Even a Buddha, if they were setting a boundary, somebody could feel offended, left out, excluded, forced to join all these kinds of people come over here. They don't want to be categorized like that or categorized outside of it. Categories are boundaries. So even a Buddha setting a boundary totally as a gift, completely okay with what people do with the suggestion, still people could be hurt, could feel offended.

[17:18]

But then again, there's a follow-through on that of how then would you respond to the offended people. Would you see that as a gift and show them that you accept the gift of their being offended. So when you first offered the gift of boundary, they were hurt, scared, whatever. Now they're hurt, scared, and you generously, graciously receive that. So then they say, hmm, okay, this may... this may be a surprise. And if not, then more happens and you do it again. Questions have a high price. I guess so. Now I have to formulate a good question. So, say there is a boundary that you haven't articulated, but you think it is an obvious boundary.

[18:25]

Someone oversteps it, then there's obviously then a consequence. It's okay to give consequences, that's not manipulative. Consequences can be gifts, yeah. Like, if someone comes too close to you, you thought it was obvious that you didn't want them that close. and they came closer than you wanted and you feel uncomfortable. So the consequence might be that you give them the gift of saying, I'm feeling uncomfortable. And I, as my daughter says, I need you to give me some space. And would you please back away? And to say that as a gift rather than a manipulation. They may not get that it's a, they may not in their in their experiencing of you saying, I need you to be farther away, would you back away? They may not see that as a gift right away. But you're actually, maybe easier for you to see whether it's a gift or not.

[19:29]

But anyway, if it's a gift, if they don't go away, okay, you're still happy that you gave them that gift. of you feel good saying, I need you. It's like, I got a gift for you. You may not say it, but you feel like, wow, I got a gift. I need you to not be so close. Or I'm uncomfortable. It's as a gift, like, oh, I'm just a poor person and I didn't have much to give, but suddenly I have something to give. I have no possessions, but I have a feeling that has arisen, which actually is about us. And it's called, I feel uncomfortable here. and I would need you to get farther away here and please get farther away here one happy gift after another one joyful gift after another three right in a row like that boom boom boom now of course if you think about it you might be afraid of each one of those what would happen if you did those because here's this person getting closer than you wanted and now suddenly you're promoting intimacy but not necessarily intimacy in the form of them being physically that close

[20:37]

you don't have to be physically close to be intimate. Matter of fact, sometimes when people come I'll just say for short, too close, you feel less intimate because they didn't negotiate that space with you. And really the intimacy would, you feel, would have implied that they would talk to you about coming into this space. If they would have, you still might have said no, but you would feel in or intimate with them if they would say, may I come closer? Sometimes I ask people, may I touch you? And they say yes. I don't necessarily touch him. I just realize that I just want to know if I can. Like I asked you about your postures earlier. When I said make a suggestion, I meant, may I touch your posture? No, I didn't make that clear. May I touch your back to make a suggestion? When I asked you that question, I was, I think, making a gesture towards intimacy with you.

[21:41]

Even if you tell me you don't want me to, I think we're still... So that was my gift to you and you can give me a gift of saying yes or no. Either way, it will be a gift. Can you tell me how to deal with the anger that arises when you are constantly negotiating consequences that are not understood? Does that make sense? No, I think it would be good. It did. Of course it makes sense, but maybe you could articulate it more. So now, are we talking about the boys again? Always. Or my mother, or it could be anybody. There are lots of times in life where you, especially somebody who's very close to you, when you set up a boundary, you could do it as a gift. Again, there it is again, there it is again. Like a controlled gift? Well, also you set it up.

[22:42]

Oh, okay, you, yeah. The boundary, often when you want to set up a boundary, it's because it kind of really is there. But the other person may not realize it, especially your son doesn't realize it. They think they own you. They think what is yours is theirs and what is theirs is theirs. They think they own you, but they don't think you own them. Unless you would say, I don't own you. And then they say, yes, you do. But anyway, they want to see if they... They're trying to find out where the boundary is. They kind of know where it is. It's somewhere around you. It's one of the main boundaries they're trying to find out. What are the boundaries around this person? How much, how close can I get? And finding that there's a boundary here is finding their intimacy with you.

[23:44]

Because you come with a boundary. And they want to be intimate with you so they want to find out what is the place that's appropriate to come up to and what's the place beyond which is not appropriate. So these boys are like, these boys are always, you know, these are the boys, these are your boys. And they want to realize intimacy with you and one of the main ways they're going to find it is by finding the boundary. Without finding boundaries, they're not going to realize their intimacy with you. If you let them come too close, they're not finding their mom. They're finding a collapsed mom, which isn't their real mom. So when a mom says, that's far enough for me, how about you? It's not far enough for me, mom. And they go back and forth with that. And when you find the agreement, then they understand that So I always get angry first before we find some agreement.

[24:46]

So it's possible that you will learn how to get uncomfortable first. Because really you probably get uncomfortable a little bit ahead. Maybe not long because there's not too much time with these guys. They're fast. So like the discomfort is like you got to do something real fast and anger is easy to do. So now we want to insert between the anger and the discomfort a gift. Mommy's getting uncomfortable. And you know what happens right after mommy gets uncomfortable. You don't want mommy to get mad, do you? No. Do you want me to yell at you? But even before that, because that can be manipulative, even before that, mommy has a gift for you. Your mother, your dear mother, is getting uncomfortable because you're getting too close. She needs some space. because she's handling a hot pan or she's taking care of your brother and taking care of your brother is taking care of you and this is my gift to you and yeah and that forestalls the anger.

[26:02]

But there might be some fear around around just telling him right away or them right away real quickly this is my situation I'm feeling uncomfortable And I need you guys to do such and such, so please do such and such. And do those three gifts real fast to learn to do them. You can learn that. It's fast, though. You've got to be fast. And the anger can just jump in there very quickly ahead of those things. And you miss this opportunity to some extent. for you to realize this wonderful intimacy with them and generosity towards them, for them to learn generosity from you. You know, surviving the moment without burning somebody is important but they may get through life without getting burned or they may get burned but what is also possible here is not only do they reach adulthood

[27:07]

but they learned generosity from their mother in the process. And their mother enjoyed teaching it to them. Along with helping them survive, you got the joy of practicing giving and teaching them this so that they can teach their children. So this is an additional thing beyond survival. Plus it's also very enjoyable if you can learn this. And again, you're not going to control these boys. That's an illusion that you sometimes slip into. Eventually they're going to be way, way out of control. You know, they're going to leave and be out in the society. But if you can teach them generosity and fearlessness before they go, you're going to be much happier, they're going to be much happier, and they're going to make a really great contribution to society because they can teach their kids and their students and so on. But this is hard, especially with three

[28:09]

coming at you. It's very hard. I probably wouldn't be able to do as well as you. But I am aware of this possibility of setting boundaries with them. And that goes with offering gifts. Because once again, if you offer boundaries as gifts, if you offered the opportunity to set boundaries as gifts, that would make sense that you would include them because you're not offering them to be that way. It's just a possibility. And you give it, and if they don't want to do it, you didn't lose anything because you gave them a gift. So you're fine. And I can give them the gift of a consequence. It's fine. It's not minute. You will give a consequence. There will be a consequence, and the consequence will be a gift, and you'll be part of it. Okay. Yeah. And again, when you give the consequence, watch again, are you using the consequence as a control or as a gift?

[29:16]

And you can kind of tell the difference between a consequence that has a controlling thing in it or a consequence which is a gift. You give it, but it doesn't necessarily go the way you want it to, but that's fine. You're happy because it was a gift. That was a gift and it didn't... I thought it was going to go differently. I thought the consequence was going to go differently than it did but I wasn't really giving the consequence to make it go the way I thought it was but I did think it would go some way and it didn't. But I'm so happy and now I can give another gift. Gifts both have consequences and are consequences. They're consequences of reality and they're consequences of teaching about reality and practice of the teaching. That's what realises gifts. So you can, I mean, this is your great opportunity. Thank you. You're welcome.

[30:22]

Yes, anurag, heroic energy. Well, some of us were having conversations at lunch, and some of this was a reflection of how I was feeling. But I think I know I'm confused about boundaries and control. And there are some situations where my limits are negotiable, and I could put it out, and I could say... Some cases where your limits are negotiable. Yeah, I could say, I have a very strong preference for this. How do you feel about it? And that's good. Yeah. So some of your... limits you can give as gifts. Yeah, we could kind of dance. Okay, yeah, good. But occasionally there are limits that are just, there's a bottom line, and that's where I'm not so sure about the control issues, where if we can't come to a satisfactory conclusion, you know, I might still care about you, but I'm going to have to remove myself from this.

[31:33]

or something and it feels like there's a, you know, there's a threat in there that's kind of... Remove myself, oh, oh, and like there's a possibility to remove myself and it's a possibility to use any, practically anything as a threat. You could use it that way. But anyway, removing yourself could be another gift though. But also removing yourself could not be a gift but could be a control move, right? So, you know, Elizabeth could give the keys to the shopping cart back as a gift or as a control move or, yeah, or as a punishment. All three are possible. But anyway, you have some access to expressing limits as gifts and therefore they're negotiable. This is my offering. Now, what's your feedback? And then other ones you feel like, this is my offering, and it's not really an offering.

[32:34]

It's an ultimatum, and I don't want to hear anything from you about it. And that's something, if I did that, that would be something which I vow to confess, that I don't trust the practice when I do that. So I just confess it. This is a case where I really wasn't being generous. I was trying to be controlling. And, yeah. I'm wondering if there's something that's sort of in between those, because it sounds kind of black and white. And I was thinking about a situation that maybe I could describe it. Okay, but I just want to say that what I'm proposing is the in-between way. It's the middle way. But the middle way may sound like an extreme way. But it really is, this is the middle way. Because this is a way where you actually are putting up boundaries. It's not like you're saying, whatever, man. One way is like, whatever, I don't care. You know, do what you want. That's one. The other one is, do it this way. The way I'm talking about is, you don't say whatever.

[33:38]

You do say this way, but you say this way without making this way a substantial way. This is a gift. And you can give another example if you want, and I have one too, with my grandson, which I'll tell. Okay. Go ahead. I have some friends, it's a couple, I do things with him from time to time. He drinks quite a bit, and... He's a nice guy. I like them both. And I was in a really bad car accident a few years ago. And I know that when he drinks, he drives erratically. Lenore can't hear this. Is that what you're saying, Lenore? I'm sorry. Hold this near you. Yeah. Is it on? Yeah. Can you hear the beginning, Lenore? Okay, she wants to hear. Okay, so I have these two friends. I enjoy doing things with them, but I don't enjoy being in the car when he's driving erratically, which is because of driving. Or even when he's driving well, but he's drunk.

[34:40]

Yeah. Because you never know when the alcohol is going to hit. And he's kind of a sneaky drunk. I can't always tell that he's drunk until I see him. do something uncoordinated. And so I bet I have a lot of goodwill for this person who apparently has a lot of goodwill for me. So one day I went to him and I said, I just can't have this. I can't ride with you anymore. I can't do this. Yeah. And he said, okay. And so now when we do things, he says, would you please drive? You know, which is a pretty good resolution, but I was completely prepared to say that's it. I was. I mean, I know in my heart if he had not responded that well, I would have said, I can't do things with you. Yeah, it's fine to say I can't do things. That's fine. And then have that be another gift. Okay. And then he says, yes, you can. And you say, yes, I can. Not in a car. And then you can say, yes, I can.

[35:41]

And then you say, not in a car. First one is tender and flexible. You've got to be flexible. Flexible is like, I can't do things with you. Yes, you can. Yes, I can. And I can't do things with you. Yes, you can. Yes, I can. And you still aren't going to do this thing probably. I think that's what I... But you're flexible about it. But I'm not flexible about the car part of it. You are flexible about the car part of it. You can be flexible about it. You don't have to be inflexible just because you don't do something. Huh. Huh. Huh. I'd really... Okay. Some people are inflexible about not drinking. And some people are flexible about not drinking. Both people do not drink. One is inflexible about it and uptight about it because of their history.

[36:41]

Their karma is such that they feel they have to be inflexible about drinking themselves. The other person, because of their karma, also doesn't drink and is not inflexible about it. But they don't. And you can say to them, you're going to drink tonight. And they can say, you're right, I am. And then they don't. Or, no, I'm not. Whatever. You know, the point is they're not rigid. They're tender about this topic. This topic of drinking is they're gentle with it. They're flexible. They're not, like, fixed, like, I am or I am not going to drink. Could that lead to them drinking? Yes. Could that lead to you getting in the car? Yes, it could. But it could also lead to, you know... saying, I offer you the gift of not riding in the car with you if you've been drinking. I offer you that gift. And I'm flexible about it. But that's my offering right now.

[37:43]

Honestly, that's my offering. And that often will lead to you not getting in the car with him if he's drinking. But as you just demonstrated, now you can get in the car with him with you driving. So, Is it getting clear? Not yet? No. Sorry. Part of me wants to let it not be clear so we can have something to talk about in the future. And another part of me wants to just make it clear right now. That would be nice. So just to change the pace, because sometimes if you go over something too many times, people tense up and can't hear anymore. By the way, did you get to think about some people do not do the thing, but they're flexible? That's the part I'm kind of chewing on. And some people do not do the thing inflexibly. So I'm not going to get in the car with you, or I'm not even saying it, but he gets in the car and you just don't get in.

[38:50]

And you're feeling inflexible not getting in the car. So... Another person is feeling firm and totally relaxed and just like, I'm just a puddle of not wanting to get in the car with you. And I'm totally not attached to that. And if I wind up in the car, I'll be fine. And I'll probably take the keys away from you or do some other amazing feat because my flexibility is like just totally creative. You know, you get me in that car, man, you're going to enjoy what happens. It's going to be really interesting if you get me in there. But also, come out here. It's interesting out here, too. Wherever I am is interesting because I'm one flexible chickadee. And I'm telling you, I don't want to get in the car unless you move over and give me the keys. So I do want to get in the car with you sitting in a different seat. So that's what flexibility can allow. Or I want you to get out of the car and take a walk with me and then we can get in the car.

[39:53]

Lots of possibilities start blooming when you're flexible about, well, it's stupid to have him drive. That's a gift. It is a gift. But can you feel it's a gift? And if you can feel it's a gift, then you're happy and you can give it. Is it getting any clearer? So it's not a power struggle, it's just not doing it. It's just not doing it, and he's contributing to you not doing it, and I am too. You're not in control of the not doing. It's not a unilateral boundary setting. You're doing it together with him, and there's flexibility. That's an interesting thought. Thank you. I was, so again, this story, it's a story that has two phases. One is when it happened and then later when I thought about it, my grandson used to live in Chinatown. And so, you know, like right in San Francisco, Chinatown, very busy, you know.

[41:00]

I lived just up a block from, I think, Stockton. You know, there's Stockton and so on. You ever know San Francisco? Very busy market streets and shopping streets, lots of trucks and stuff. So we would go down from his house to a park that was right down there and sometimes we'd come out of the park and sometimes he wanted to walk into the street, you know, where the heavy traffic was. And then I, trying to practice, you know, giving him the gift of telling him that I'd like him to not go into the street, but trying to, like, give him that gift but not overpower him and control him in this case. It didn't seem like he needed to be overpowered. That was not the gift. Sometimes overpowering somebody can be a gift. That's another thing. Sometimes sitting on your son's chest could be a gift. You can do that as a gift rather than to control him, but to give him the gift of knowing what to... to give him the gift of realizing that mom's stronger than he is. Or if not mom, dad.

[42:02]

Or if not dad, the police. You know, at some point anyway, sometimes that's a gift, a nice gift to give people to see, you know, there's people stronger than you. And you want to feel it? We'll show it to you as a gift. Not to control them, but to educate. But I didn't think in this case that it was the issue of him thinking he was too strong. You know what I mean? Sometimes kids think they're very, very strong and they think they can control, for example, their mother or their father. They think if they just yell loud enough or scream loud enough that that's going to actually work because they're so powerful. They're powerful, but they're not that powerful. So you've got to show them, oh, you want to know about power? Okay, well, here, feel this. Feel this? That's power. And it's a lot bigger than you. And there's more where that came from. But it's not a control thing. Do you see the difference? Your trip is not to keep the kid flat on the ground.

[43:03]

That's not what you're trying to do. That's not the point of the game. The point of the game is to show him that there's force in the world and it can be applied to him so he will understand what's going on. It's a gift. And then when he gets up, he understands or he doesn't. So in my grandson's case, it was not that he was trying to overpower me or overpower the trucks. He just wanted to go in the street for some various reasons. A lot of energy and interesting things in the street. Trucks. you know, etc. But I didn't want him to go there because he might get hurt. So I was trying, without overpowering him, to give him the gift of granddaddy wants you to just not go in the street. And I tried that and tried that and tried that and kind of, you know, we kind of negotiated and he didn't go in the street. And then he turned around from the street and went the other direction into the shops. So then I had to try to protect the shop people from him.

[44:05]

which is even more difficult because, you know, he's not in danger in the shop, just the shop people are in danger. Or I'm in danger of paying for everything in the shop. So that, but still it was difficult. But in retrospect, I realized that there was another way to negotiate with him of setting the limits together that I didn't think of because I was a little tense. In the way I thought of later, if I was really tender, I would have opened to some other creative responses. And one of the creative responses which I didn't notice because I was kind of tense, trying to be a protective grandfather and also a Zen teacher, was to go into the street with him. I didn't think of that, but that's really, that's what I, I think that would have been really, then I wouldn't have been so tense.

[45:11]

Actually, I would have been relaxed because I wouldn't be worried about overpowering him or slipping into control of him. And he would be totally with me, you know, out there in the street. He would be like, we would be negotiating that space together. He would realize with my accompaniment how dangerous it is out there and how big those trucks are. He would learn that directly, but I didn't see it at the time, to go with him and for him and me together to say, well, let's get out of the street, shall we? And then later... and I pity certain people for hearing his story again, but later, when he was a little bit bigger, when he was like three or four, he was out at Green Gulch. And, you know, it was about this time of year when it gets dark before around dinner time, it's already quite dark. So he's still up and able to go outside when it's dark.

[46:16]

And he said, let's go out and down into the garden and dig in the dirt. So it's like cold and dark. And he's got this little plastic tool kit and he wants to go out in the dark you know, down in the field, you know, in the cold, and dig in the dirt. And I thought, you know, this is not, for me, this is not dangerous, so I didn't have a problem of doing it, but I thought he might get scared. I thought as a little boy I might get scared to go out. Now he's scared of the dark. Now he's older, he knows he's scared of the dark. But at that time, he just thought, let's go. And I thought, okay, if he wants to go, I'll go with him. I didn't say, won't that be scary, or won't that be dangerous? So we went after packing a little, as he calls it, bag of lunch. So we went off into the dark and the cold together. And as we approached the field, we came near to a pond.

[47:17]

And we were going with the little dog, little Jack Russell that does the handstands. We were with that handstand dog. Her name's Rozzy. And so we were going down to the pond and he said, what's that? What's that sound? And I said, I think it's frogs. And he said, oh, you mean Ribbit? I said, yeah. He said, oh. And we walked closer to the pond and the sound of the frogs got even louder. And he said, let's go home, I think Rozzy's getting scared. So, you know, to set the limits together, to, you know, not to say, no, we're not going to go there. We can go, we can go there. You know, together we can figure out how, where we're going to go. And, you know, learn that I don't have to tell him what he's supposed to be afraid of or not be afraid of.

[48:27]

And I don't have to tell him where to go and not to go. I'll go with him. And if I'm flexible and tender and honest and upright and peaceful, we will find our way together. Wisdom will come into our relationship. And fear may arise, but then we just deal with that the same way. And we'll find our way through. But we need all this working for us. If we miss one of these points, we veer away from wisdom into, you know, unskillfulness. We lose our vision and then we veer off into control, you know, setting boundaries unilaterally, etc. And then I have on here The other item I wrote there is care. And basically I have this kind of simple teaching about care.

[49:40]

And that is, I think it's good to care. I think it's good to be careful, to be full of care. And I think it's good to care a lot. about everything. And then I think the point is how not to care too much or too little. Because I know a lot of people, I think a lot of people are attracted to Zen are people who care too much. You can care too much and get into a Zen center. Well, that lets you in. You can even care like, you know, way too much and still be allowed into a Zen center. And some people care too little. And if you care way too little, you probably can't be in the Zen center because you won't, you know, you won't care enough to take care of the boundaries which we have in our life.

[50:55]

not staying up all night, getting up in the morning rather than at noon, you know, not drinking or smoking in the meditation hall. So if you don't care, if you don't care, people will say, well, you know, it doesn't work for you to be here. You don't care enough. You don't care. Not caring is not enough. You have to care some, not zero care. yet care actually a lot about everything but a lot is not not is not not caring and a lot is not too much but a lot of people a lot of people care too much because they're protecting against caring too little because caring too little you get kicked out of certain formal settings. Yes, you want to come up here? Yeah, no, you know, oh.

[51:58]

People care, a lot of people care too much to protect against the danger of caring too little. Because they don't want the consequences that happen from caring too little. Like prison, social ostracism. You don't usually get sent to prison for caring too much. The people in prison are not those people unless they're, except for people who take drugs and alcohol as an antidote to their caring too much. And then that's the way they care a little bit less, but then because they're intoxicated, they commit certain crimes, or they commit the kind of intoxication. But basically, if you're in your right mind, you can care too much and we can work with that. But a lot of people do care too much. So caring too much for your children, caring too much for your parents, caring too much for your teacher or your clients, and them trying to get you to care too much and not falling for that.

[53:11]

This is a balancing act. This is part of being upright. So I thought I'd put that out there too. Thank you for saying that about caring. I'm a teacher and a teacher activist and anti-racist work that I do in schools. And I feel like that problem where I have boundary issues is with people who care too little. And so I hadn't gotten that last piece put together until you said that.

[54:15]

And so then for me, it feels like I'm, is it Sisyphus is pushing the boulder uphill. And where I feel the boundaries are set is that the teachers, certain colleagues refuse to engage in dialogue. They refuse to have an inquiry. So the impact of that then is on the kids. And the school I work with is bimodal socioeconomically. And so that I look at how the grades fall out and the achievement falls out and it falls out along socioeconomics and it falls out along race lines. And so what happens is I get tired and I'm pretty clear that my entrenchment doesn't help.

[55:31]

And so that then people have a reaction to me again raising the questions. Entrenchment like not being tender and flexible? Entrenchment meaning let's look at this data. And I always have data. That doesn't sound like entrenchment. Well, I stick to that. Oh, the sticking to it. Yeah, to this question. Let's look at this data. So that doesn't sound flexible. So flexibility would facilitate wisdom interacting with the data. I propose. I feel like I have some flexibility in that I can shift. This isn't working. Okay, what we'll do is this approach.

[56:34]

Okay, that's not working. What we'll do is that approach. That's good. And so the sticking to it is I don't let go of the question. Yeah, so it would probably be good to let go of the question. Add that to your repertoire of letting go of the question. And you just exhaled. Audibly and visibly. Let go of your breath. Let go of this question. And then inhale the breath and inhale the question. And give it again if it comes. It probably will. It comes. What about the kids? What about the kids? Well, yeah, you're really concerned about the kids, right? So because you're concerned about the kids, they're more important than you holding on to this question, right? That's the question. What about the kids? Yeah, you asked that question, and I'm proposing to you just to say that the kids are more important than whether you hold on to this question.

[57:36]

If the kids would be benefited by you letting go of the question, wouldn't you let go of it? I think the under-arching question is what about the kids? Yeah, I agree. Okay. It just happens that I agree. But, and I'm saying to you since that was important, then if you understood that letting go of the question would help the kids, then would you pay the price of letting go of the question? Then the question wouldn't be relevant. It doesn't matter. No. The question would be that which you let go of, in which the letting go benefits the children. The question is now the thing you let go of in order to help the children. It is relevant. It is what you're letting go of. I'm not comprehending.

[58:37]

Yeah, well, you're close, though. Any minute now, I could hear it. what's going to help the children, what's going to convert the system towards people changing. The way it is now, you want it to change. And you need to change too. So you need to do a different... If you say, I'd like to stay the same and have everything else change. I want these children to be benefited. I want the way they're living to be changed. But I want to stay the same. I'm just going to hold on to that agenda. No, give that agenda away. Make it a gift, not a thing you're holding on to. not a thing you're holding onto, something you give away. So you're demonstrating giving, you're practicing giving, and that will transform the system. That will change the minds of the children, and you will teach the children giving.

[59:44]

If the children learn giving, if the children in this mode learn giving, and the children in this mode learn giving, then they will practice giving towards each other, among themselves and between each other. And the ones who practice giving will be benefited and they will teach the other ones, whichever mode they're in. I got it. If the kids in these two modes come out of your school knowing how to practice giving, you are a success. You want to help the children. Right, but what I also understand or take from what you're saying is that in finding a way with my relationship with the colleagues to have it come from a place of giving is different, and that shifts it. And that shifts it and shifts them. Now, they won't immediately necessarily, and the children won't immediately catch on to that what you're doing is giving. They won't necessarily get it right away, but they may suspect, and then they'll test you, you know, to see if it's really giving.

[60:50]

And maybe by resisting what you're offering even more than before, because they kind of sense, gee, she's offering it in a softer way. She seems to be less holding on to this like she used to. Maybe we'll just check to see if this is real. And if it is, well, it could have been real, but then you slip back into more of a controlling mode. And they say, ah, it wasn't real. And you try again, and then they test you again. And the next time when they test you, you say, oh, no, it is real. I am actually giving this as a gift. Because it's more important for me that you learn giving than that you learn what my agenda was. Because my agenda really was giving, but I was not acting in a generous way towards my giving agenda. Well, I got that. Yeah, good. Giving without expectation. Exactly. Thank you. You're welcome. I haven't very often said this to anybody but I think maybe I will more so in the future but I think it might be good to ask some of your friends and enemies if they would give you feedback on whether they feel you're caring too much or too little about something.

[62:46]

Just get their feedback. And also it would then introduce the idea that one can care too much or too little to them. They would be tipped off to this, and then they could practice it on giving you feedback, and you'd get that feedback. And then you could, again, look at yourself to see if when they give you feedback that you're caring too much, you care too much about that. Or do you care about it, but not too much? Like, oh, they're saying I care too much. but I don't feel like I cared too much about them saying that. And you might ask them, did my response to you telling me that look like I cared too much? And they might say, no, actually, in that case, you changed. Or you might feel like you care the right amount, but other people think you don't care enough. Or you might feel like you don't care enough sometimes and ask people, and they might feel like, I agree, you don't.

[63:51]

And then you might start caring a little more and feel like you care more and people might still think you don't care enough. And you might listen to that and care that they think you don't care enough and still feel like you're kind of on the mark. And just continue that way forever. Don't stop after one year or ten years of this. And it's hard, by the way, to offer invitations enough. Because, you know, it's like, how many times can you ask people to give you feedback? You'd be talking like nothing else but that, right? Give me feedback, give me feedback, I invite you to give me feedback. But again, if you wait too long between the invitations, people forget they're invited. So it's another balancing act of caring about giving invitations to people to give you feedback about how much you care and not caring too much about that and giving too many and not caring too little and giving too few but caring enough so that you probably give some because if you don't ever initiate the invitation

[65:06]

Zero is probably not enough. So I invite you to give me feedback on whether I care the right amount. I take back right amount. Whether I care the appropriate amount. Appropriate to what? To intimacy with you. Because you can see that. You feel like I care the appropriate amount. And if you ever feel like I care too much or too little, I welcome your feedback. Reb, I think you don't care enough. I think you care too little for our relationship. And I can tell you ways that I think you care too little. Or, I think you care too much. I mean, I appreciate that you care about our relationship, but it's too much. Lighten up, please. And I think I know some people that I would recommend that to.

[66:08]

Some people, actually, it's pretty clear they care way too much. But still they should ask for feedback. Because sometimes they care way too much and they know it. They know they generally care way too much. But even so, they sometimes forget that this is an example of it. And if they had invited an invitation, their friends could remind them, you know. Like, I just thought of, you know, like Karen just went through a Bodhisattva initiation ceremony last weekend at Green Gulch. where she received these bodhisattva vows and these bodhisattva practices. For example, you'll be glad to hear she accepted the precept of not killing, the teaching of not killing. She's committed to that. So these are these vows. But some people could care too much about that, care so much about not killing that they kill people. We have that in the United States now.

[67:12]

We have people who care so much about not killing that they're going killing people all over the place. They care too much about it. Of course it's good to care a lot about not killing. It's really important to care about not killing. And caring too little is really bad. And caring too much, we have that situation here. people care too much about not killing, so much so that they kill. So generally speaking, an ethical precept that you care too much about or care too little about, you are at risk of going against that ethical precept. Sorry. Again, that's what people do, is they figure, if I overdo, if I overcare, then I won't under-care, because under-caring is definitely, everybody knows that's, not caring enough about killing is not good, right?

[68:12]

Everybody knows that. So let's care too much just to make sure we don't slip. So America's way too much, you know, no American will ever be killed, you know. Well, that's kind of unrealistic, as you can see, because we're killing each other so much. Because this is the safest country in the world, it's probably the most violent. So therefore, it's not the safest country. Because we're trying to make it 100% safe, we will kill people who say they have a gun. This guy told his mother he had a gun and told the police he had a gun, so they shot him. Because this would be so terrible, so horrible, if he did have a gun and he would use it. Because this is not allowed. So therefore, we make it happen. You see that picture? It's way, way over too much.

[69:17]

ask people to help you if you're going too much one way or the other. So these precepts, I mentioned to the friends that came to the ceremony, now you hear these people's precepts, now give them feedback. And I didn't mention, give them feedback if they're overly serious and care too much about these precepts too. If it comes to intoxication and they're drinking too much, give them feedback. If it comes to intoxication and they totally freak out if they see somebody drinking, give them feedback. If they care too much about not lying or too little, give them feedback. I invited them on behalf of the people. And they let me do that, I think. Nobody complained afterwards. Well, how come you invited those people to give me feedback? Was that okay? I didn't ask permission. But since they asked me to give them these precepts, I gave them these precepts.

[70:21]

I gave them the precepts and I gave them the support system. And so now they have that. But now you can ask people You can tell people the precepts you want to practice. You can tell people your commitments, and you can invite them to give you feedback on whether you're following them, but also whether you're too tense about them or too relaxed about them. Elizabeth, you're a little too easy on that one. Elizabeth, you're too uptight about that one. But I won't say that to her. Probably I won't say it to her. And even some people will say it, though. I won't. I won't say it because I know it's way too heavy for me to say it. But some people will say it. And then you'll reject it because you didn't invite them. But if people ask me, and then I say it, then they say, okay, I did ask, it's true, okay, you want to give me some feedback?

[71:24]

Well, all right. And then I say, well, maybe later. If you don't really want it now, I'll do it later. But I'm asking your feedback on this particular way. Do I care too much? Am I caring too much about you and our relationship? Or do I care too little? Go home and ask your children, your parents, your spouse, do I care too much about our relationship? Do I care too little? And also, I invite you in the future to give me feedback on this point. I invite you to help me have a balanced, you know, wholehearted devotion to our relationship without overdoing it to protect against underdoing it. And of course also without underdoing it due to, you know, distraction and so on.

[72:27]

Any feedback on that? Or any feedback on whether I care too much or too little? it really is every time you say something to your partner it really is a gift but if you don't see that it's a gift if you don't mean it as a gift if you don't want it to be a gift then you can miss it it is a gift though it always is a gift but you have to practice it You have to practice the feedback, but you have to practice... If you give Leon feedback, it's a gift. It always is. But if you don't think of it as a gift, you'll miss the gift part. if you think of it as a control, it really is a gift. If I say something to you, it really is a gift, and it's not really control because I can't control you.

[73:30]

But if I think it's control, I miss it, it's a gift. And we do think, our thinking is, our karmic obstructions is that our thinking is thinking a lot in the past has been, in the past, not now of course, but in the past we've been thinking and telling stories about control. So now we're somewhat obstructed by thinking in terms of controlling ourselves and controlling others. And there's a lot of reasons why we got into this. People taught us that. Control yourself, control your dog and control your children and control your students. So now we have that karmic history. So we really are giving. That's really what's happening is we're like giving, you know. Like, I see friends shaking hands, saying, how do you do? They're really saying, I love you. But they don't get it because of karmic hindrance. They think, I'm just saying how you do. That's all the farther I'm going to go on this one. Really, when you give Leon feedback, you're giving him a gift.

[74:34]

But if there's a controlling hindrance in there, then you missed the gift. And he might not give it. He might not miss it. He might say, I know she's giving me a gift, but I'm sorry she doesn't get it. She thinks she's trying to control me, but she's not. I'm just like totally overwhelmed and out of control in her gift giving. So you need to tune in to the gift giving and not be fooled by any thread of controlling of this guy, even though it really would be good to get this guy under control. Wouldn't that be great? No, it wouldn't. The uncontrollable, uncontrolled Leon is really great. He's just like out of control Leon. And it's just so beautiful, isn't it? It's just great that we can't... Some people have tried to control this guy, but... There's a song about this. They tried to control me, but nobody could. How does that song go? Oh, I think it's this... Anyway, Leon cannot be controlled, is not controlled, and we don't want to try to control Leon.

[75:46]

We're just going to let Leon be who he is and watch him. And enjoy him, right? And Elizabeth is too. And if any controlling threads arise, she's just going to be gracious towards them and not get into it and realize... that she's really practicing giving with him, which you are, of course. But occasionally some thread of control comes into our relationship with people, right? That's something to confess. Trying to control, trying to control is something to confess. And repent, and get over, and go back to giving. That's what I say. Any feedback? The young mothers are being very active. Their children are old enough so that they have enough energy to walk.

[76:47]

I have a confession. And my confession is I tend to be, I think I'm over-caring. And so last night, I felt like I needed to express myself, and I, shall we say, wasn't very still in my mind. And so I came up here, and I expressed myself, and then I ran back over there. Oh, you ran, did you? I ran pretty much and ran, yeah. Get away from Reb, yeah. Because I was afraid. I was scared when fear came up. And so, yeah, that's my confession. Great. I mean, great that you told us and great that you knew it. Oh, and yes, this is what I want to say. When I got back to my cushion, I sat there and I thought, well, Reb didn't say anything. He must not, he doesn't care enough. And that story arose in my head.

[77:57]

And then the next story came up, and that was, when you got back to your cushion so fast, you ran away so fast, there was no time for sitting and waiting for a response. Yeah, and if you'd sat here and waited, and time had gone and gone and gone, and I didn't say anything... you gradually would realize, boy, he must really care about me to sit here and not say anything all this time. So now I can say thank you to him. That's what he does with his daughter. He sits there quietly with her for a long time until she has something to say. Let's see, will she run back this time or walk back? Did you run or walk? Well, I walked both times, but the first time I felt like I ran, so I walked.

[78:58]

Yeah, there's some people, you know, that we really feel close to and we want to be close to, and then sometimes we run to be with them, and then when we get to be with them, we try to get away. So I had that thing particularly strongly with Suzuki Roshi. He said, I arranged my life, when I first came to Zen Center, I arranged my life to be near him and always available to him. And he noticed eventually that this guy was available. And so he said, well, I guess he, so then he would bring me into his presence. And then when I got into his presence, I tried to get away. after I finally, you know, got what I wanted of being close to him, then it's just too much for me, so I try to get away. So this is normal intimacy practice. Now it's time for a break, and I would like to adjust a boundary and invite your participation.

[80:07]

I would like to make this break a half an hour longer, or 25 minutes longer. I'd like to reconvene at 3 instead of 2.30, if that's okay with you. Is that all right? Okay, so we'll come back here at 3, and we'll start with quiet sitting. All right? Thank you very much.

[80:31]

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