I have various things I'd like to talk to you about. And in lieu of being able to feel which one is best to bring up, I thought I'd tell a story to kind of warm up. And it's a story which, when I first heard it, I liked it and it took me a while to find it in the Buddhist canon. It's a story which in the scriptures is called the Acrobats. And the story goes something like, there was an acrobat and an acrobat's apprenticed. Many of the stories the Buddha tells are about a something and a something apprenticed.

[01:07]

Carpenter, stonemason, doctor, nurse, farmer, and they're apprenticed. In this case, the apprenticed, the acrobat, I think, was a man, an adult man, and the apprentice was, anyway, his daughter. Meaning smaller than him. And he said to her, and her name I think was Frying Pan. Like a frying pan? And in some, you know, if you see it in Pali, it doesn't, it looks just like a Pali word, but translated it's frying pan. So he says apprentice, or he says frying pan. Now, oh oh, the Buddha says, once there was an acrobat and his apprentice. And they were bamboo acrobats. And it's not clear exactly what the bamboo thing is.

[02:13]

So one possibility is that the bamboo is held in the hand. No, one possibility is actually, yeah, one possibility is there's a bamboo pole and he climbs up in the bamboo and she climbs up in his shoulders. But I think it actually is he takes the bamboo and balances it on his head or his chin. And then she climbs up on his shoulders and up the bamboo. I think that's the feet. Or it's possible that he climbed up in the bamboo and she climbed up and gets on his shoulders and that's all. Anyway, something about the two people in bamboo is the feet. And he says to her, now you climb up on your shoulders and you take care of me and I'll take care of you so that we'll be able to do this feat and successfully and safely and collect our donations and have a good day at our work."

[03:21]

And she says something like, respectfully, I respectfully disagree with you, venerable master. Rather, you should take care of yourself and I should take care of me. And then we will be able to do this feat successfully. And then after the Buddha tells that story, which you could say, well, he just made that up. But anyway, after he tells the story, he said the daughter, the apprentice, is correct. So this shows, number one, that the student, in a good story, the student is oftentimes shifting the situation and teaching the teacher. And then the Buddha says, and how, and he says, and it's the same in our practice, if you want to help other people, first you should help yourself.

[04:35]

you should help yourself in such a way that you can help others. And you should help others in such a way that helps yourself. And what's the way to take care of yourself so that you can take care of others? Well, he said, practice the four foundations of mindfulness. Be mindful of your body. Be mindful of your your posture, your breathing, and so on. Be mindful of your, that's the first foundation, be mindful of your feelings, be mindful of your mind states, and be mindful of various mental objects which will develop your awareness. And then if you are mindful of these things, if you take care of yourself by being mindful of these things in yourself, then you can also be mindful of these things in others.

[05:41]

And then you can be mindful of these things in yourself and others. Is the breeze bothering you? It's okay. So first you take care of yourself this way, then you can take care of others and you can take care of both self and others in being mindful this way. And then based on this you can be patient and kind and non-violent with others. And when you're that way with others, that's a way of taking care of others that takes care of you. So taking care of yourself in such a way you can take care of others is to be mindful of your own state, what's going on with you in these ways, these four basic ways. And you can also teach others to do this. But then also as a result of that you can be patient, you could say generous, non-violent, non-harming, kind, and so on.

[06:52]

So it's a circle. Take care of yourself so you can take care of others. Take care of others, which take care of yourself. Take care of yourself in a way that allows you to take care of others. Take care of others in such a way that allows you to take care of yourself. When you're generous with others, that takes care of you. When you're patient with others, that takes care of you. When you're generous with others, that takes care of you. That's the best way to take care of yourself, by taking care of others. And the best way to take care of others, the first way of taking care of others, is to beware of yourself. If I try to be patient with people before I'm aware of what's going on with me, it's very difficult. So, like, if someone's pressing on me and I feel uncomfortable and I try to be patient with them, it's hard to be patient if I don't take care of my discomfort. I have to first of all realize, oh, I'm uncomfortable. I have to practice patience. Otherwise, I won't be patient with them. I'm not dealing with my pain, my discomfort, then I'm going to be unpatient.

[08:02]

And I could even be afraid if I don't take care of my pain, be afraid of what's going to happen next with it, and be violent with people. So it's good to wish to be nonviolent and patient with people, but I won't be very successful if I don't take care of my... if I'm not mindful of my own feelings and my own emotions. Which takes us back to Being mindful is a one-word expression for being aware of my feelings and being honest about them. Say, this is the feeling, this is the emotion, and being tender with it is part of being mindful. And being peaceful with it, and be upright with it. this is an elaboration of what proper mindfulness is. So again, those are ways of taking care of yourself so you can take care of others.

[09:08]

And then when you're taking care of others in that way, that also takes care of you. There is some difference between what we call student-teacher relationship and what you might call parent-child relationship. There's some differences, certainly, but there's some similarities, too. I'd like to bring up the proposal that a lot of conflicts that occur between beings come from, especially between a student teacher and a parent child, come from not distinguishing or discriminating between

[10:27]

the needs of yourself and the strategies by which you try to meet the needs or the needs of others and the strategies that they're attempting to use to meet their needs. So one example would be the parent says to the child, it's getting late, I want you to go to bed. And the child says, I want to play some more and I'm not tired. And the parent says, if you don't go to bed now, you'll be tired in the morning, and you'll have a hard time getting up, or you'll resist getting up.

[11:45]

You'll fight me when I try to get you up to go, and so I want you to go to bed now. And the child says, no, I won't. And the parent says, yes, you will. The child says, no, I won't. And we can go on from there. So the parent actually wants and feels a need that the child will get rested, because they have a need that the child will get up and go to school, and that they have a need that it will be a fairly happy negotiation, this getting up out of bed, that they won't have to fight in the morning. They feel a need to have a nice relationship in the morning and at night. And tonight I bring up this boundary so that tomorrow morning things will go well. In this case the parent directly or indirectly, yeah, the parent kind of states their strategy and also they state without maybe making their need clear, but they sort of did when the child argued, they kind of told their need.

[13:00]

that the need was for the next morning. They don't really need the child to go to bed tonight except in relationship to tomorrow morning. But anyway, they stated their need first. So another scenario would be, would you please get ready to go to bed? I want you to get ready to go to bed now. And the child says, I don't want to, I'm not tired. and I want to play some more with my toys. And the parent says, you want to go to bed when you're tired, is that right? And you want to play until that time, is that right? And the child says, yeah, that's right. And the parent says, is there anything else that you want to tell me about what you want to stay up for? And the child says, no.

[14:03]

He said, have I heard you? Have I heard the reason why you want to stay up later? Yes. Okay. Well, I want you to go to bed so that, you know, now you listen to why I want you to go to bed. And the child says, okay, you listen to me, I'll listen to you. Okay, tell me why you want me to go to bed. I want you to go to bed so that you get enough rest so in the morning you'll wake up and be ready to go. And so, did you hear that? Yes. And you can play until you're tired. And then when you're tired you can go to bed. Okay? Okay. And thanks for listening to me, the parent says. child may not say, child could say, well, thank you for listening for me.

[15:04]

Thanks for asking if, you know, what I wanted and hearing that I wanted to keep playing until I felt tired. My grandson is, quite frequently, he actually, at Thanksgiving, no it wasn't Thanksgiving, it was his mother's birthday last Yeah, it was actually last Sunday. It was after the ordination. There was a birthday party for my daughter. And my grandson said at about eight or so, he said, I want to go to bed. And someone thought he was actually kind of showing off. Because children don't usually say, well, good night, I want to go to bed. Someone thought he had something he wanted to go do in the other room. Like get out his game board. Huh? I think his mother thought that maybe, she said, don't get your Game Boy out. He said, okay.

[16:08]

And he did go in and he put himself to bed. And he does that sometimes. He actually says, I'm tired, and goes to bed. Because he actually kind of likes getting up and not being so tired, too. And I think when we hear our children, whether they're our son or daughter or just a child, when we hear their needs, we do not have much trouble supporting them. But when we hear their strategies, we often have a problem. some of their strategies are really questionable. Like, for example, buying everything in Toys R Us. You know, just go from one thing after another would be what would happen to something.

[17:14]

Their strategies would really be a problem. But if you find out what the need is, actually, if they could find out what that was, it wouldn't be so difficult. But sometimes it's hard to find the need. You have to really respectfully ask the person to tell you about what they need. And if you're not respectful, it might be hard for them to tell you because they feel like you might belittle them as they struggle through their strategies to their needs. One simple example of this was about 27 years ago 27 and a half years ago I went to Esalen Institute for a couple of months to teach Zen meditation there and my daughter went with me and her mother went to France and

[18:18]

excuse me for saying so, but some people told me at Esalen, they said, you know, I really like the way you are with your daughter. You kind of treat her like she's your friend, you know. You don't, you know, it's kind of like you're partners in this parent-child thing. And I, and that was true with the exception of in the morning when it was time to go to the school, the children's program, usually she would cry on her way to the program and cry when I left. I don't remember clearly how that worked out, but usually she cried. And then when I picked her up at the end of the day, I would come up and she would kind of go, kind of like, who are you? She always had a good time, but the separation was hard for her. And separations are also hard for her son. Usually when her son comes to visit us, about when it's time to go he starts getting real mean to us not always but before that he used to he used to cry and so did we we just kind of like get used to each other and then he goes back to his house but anyway when we were there my wife asked me to

[19:43]

get the daughter off the pacifier. She used a pacifier. She was three and a half. And she used a pacifier particularly when she went to sleep at night. And so her mother said, try to get her to stop using it. And I said, okay. And And so I guess one of the first nights we were there, I said to her, your mother asked me to try to help you to give up the pacifier. And my daughter said, well, I want to keep using it. It helps me go to sleep.

[20:46]

she told me her need. Using the pacifier was a strategy for going to sleep. And certainly she has a need for going to sleep, which I have no problem with, of course. And so there's various strategies for going to sleep. And I thought, well, considering the strategies that some people use to go to sleep, this is not a bad one. You know? So the pacifier by itself is not, she doesn't really need a pacifier. She needs to go to sleep. So I said, okay. I didn't mean to sort of say, okay, I'm not going to do what your mother said, but sort of that's what I was saying. She sent me to do something which, now that I look at it, is kind of unreasonable to ask you to give this thing up, which is kind of a a pretty good strategy actually for going to sleep for this kid at that time. So she used it.

[21:49]

And other nights I would read to her and she would fall asleep before she asked for the pacifier. And I didn't say, don't you want to use your pacifier? So sometimes, some nights she would go to sleep while I was reading to her and other nights she would ask for it and I would give it to her. And one night I was doing a class and she was being babysat by Christina Groff, Stan Groff's partner. She was babysitting him, babysitting her, and she was using her pacifier while she was being babysat. And when I came back to where we were staying from the class, my daughter was still, but had been very, very upset because her pacifier broke. She bit through it. So it was a, non-satisfying pacifier.

[22:53]

It wasn't really working properly because she bit it. So, you know, she said to me, go buy me another pacifier. And I said to her, well, it's Again, a perfectly reasonable strategy to use a pacifier, but you don't have one now. I didn't say that to her, but anyway, I was okay with her using a pacifier, but I said to her, we're at Esalen, you know, and the nearest store is 25 miles on a windy path, and 25 miles back, and I don't feel like going driving in the night for 50 miles to get to the pacifier. I said, get me some water. Although you'll miss the story if you go, so maybe you should stay. You know the story, you should go.

[23:54]

So, plus, I don't think I said this to her, I said, plus, you would be asleep long before we got to the story. After a few turns on the road, you would be asleep in the car. I didn't say that, but anyway. I said, if you remind me tomorrow, I'll make arrangements. Thank you very much. You're welcome. I'll make arrangements. Somebody's probably going to town tomorrow from Esalen. I'll get them to get you a pacifier. but I don't know if I'll be able to remember, so help remind me. So anyway, the day went through, took her to school, she cried. When I picked her up, she didn't want to leave school. And then when nighttime came, she says, where's my pacifier? And I said, well, you didn't remind me, so we don't have a pacifier. So I read her the story, she went to sleep, and that was that. Next day, I said, but if you remind me tomorrow, I'll have somebody go get it for you.

[25:05]

I'll buy you another one, but I'm not going to drive 50 miles just for that. So the day went by, she didn't remind me, and I didn't remember either. If I had remembered, I think I would have told somebody, but I didn't remember. And I didn't say that I was going to. I said, if you remind me, I will get it for you. The night came and she said, where's my pacifier? I said, you didn't tell me. So she went to sleep. And then that was it. Then she never asked again for the pacifier. And I didn't try to get her off it. She just got off it. And since then she's been having no trouble going to sleep. She said, also at her birthday party, she said, I'm not quite as good as Dad at going to sleep, but I'm pretty good. Her mother says, I wish you guys would teach me how to go to sleep like you guys can do. I guess it's somewhat genetic, enhanced by Zen practice, which she refuses to do.

[26:15]

So this also relates to parent-child-student-teacher in that a lot of people come to a Zen temple to meet the Zen teacher and then they ask the Zen teacher, sometimes they ask the Zen teacher, what should I do? How should I practice? They don't usually do that with me right away because usually they come and get some orientation to the temple at large or they've already had some experience But as they get into the practice a little bit, they sometimes start asking me, what should I do? How should I practice? And so I used to tell them how to practice. And I noticed also, particularly when I ordained people as priests, I felt like I had this job of training them to be priests, and my basic idea was to train them to be like me. I thought that would be pretty good.

[27:22]

They thought I was a good priest. That's why they wanted me to train them. Or anyway, they thought I might be a good trainer, so they asked me to train them. So I thought, well, I'll train them to be like me. I'll tell them all the good practices I'll tell them about all the practices that I like. You know? And I did that for a while and then I noticed that they didn't they didn't do they didn't want to do the training that I told them to do because that was what they didn't want to become me. They wanted to become themselves. It's the bottom right Is that what you want? They didn't want to become like me. They wanted to become themselves. And they didn't want to do what I wanted them to do.

[28:29]

They wanted to do what they wanted to do. So then I switched. Things shifted. And then I started to try to find out what they wanted to do. and then try to help them do what they want to do. And there's resistance to that too, but it's resistance to what they want to do rather than resistance to what I want to be. And it's resistance to being themselves rather than resistance to being me. Both are hard. But one, actually, I've come to think is more appropriate. And the same with children. Parents sometimes I have an idea what the children should be, rather than helping the children find out what they want to do. And with my daughter, although it would have been darling for her to become a Zen priest, that's not what she wanted to do, and I didn't expect her to be that. And even with my grandson, when I see glimmerings that he might want to be a Zen priest, it's very endearing.

[29:34]

Like when he sits in full lotus, I go, So there's some stories where, you know, there was intimations of his future priesthood. And that would be, you know, it would be nice to train your grandson or granddaughter in the family tradition. That would be lovely, but my daughter didn't want to. And as a result, I watched and saw that when she didn't want to do something, although she still would do it to some extent because we asked her to. There were certain chores that we asked her to do because she lived with us, like clean her room, wash her dishes, do her homework. That's enough, I guess.

[30:39]

These are things we wanted her to do while she's living with us. brush her teeth, go to sleep, eat. It's part of being a good roommate. And when she didn't want to do those things, she still did them, you know, just because we wanted her to. But she did them half-heartedly most of the time. Which, you know, that was okay because she didn't really want to do them. But occasionally there would be something that she didn't want to do. So then she would show me and her mother what it was like when she wanted to do something. And then the lights went on. And you could see what you knew all along, that this girl has intelligence, energy, creativity. And when applied to what she wants, it's an amazing event.

[31:41]

And that would be sometimes done towards unwholesome things and sometimes towards wholesome things. But particularly towards the wholesome things she was doing amazingly. That really was amazing what her energy and abilities could do. after I saw that, my general confidence in her was very well established. And I felt like, yeah, when she finds it, it's going to be great. And when she was, but she didn't find it, except for those few times. And when she went to college, she didn't want to study. And she sort of did, but not much. And then And then she sort of did a little bit more, but not really. And she was uncomfortable with this. And I said to her, you know, you just happen to be somebody who has a lot of abilities and it is my view that when you find out what you want to do,

[33:04]

you'll be very happy to work on it. It may be hard but you will be able to do it and you will feel that your life has arrived and the kind of suffering you have now will be gone. You'll have another kind of suffering called the suffering of working really hard at what you want to do. That's the suffering you'll have. And you'll get tired probably because you're not totally skillful but there'll be no more of this suffering you have now because you're spinning your wheels and not going anywhere because you don't know where you want to go." And I said, I was lucky when I was about your age I found out about Zen and I wanted to do it. Before that I was going through college and working pretty hard but I was just doing that in lieu of finding out what I wanted to do and I thought that would be a good thing to do for somebody who didn't know what he wanted to do. And it was. And her going to high school was a good thing to do in lieu of finding out what she wanted to do.

[34:10]

And college was barely, she was barely making the effort. But she was learning a little bit more in college. And then not too long after that conversation where I said, when you find what you want, then things will be different. But until then, it's going to be very painful. And I don't know how many years it's going to be before you find it. But fortunately, she found it in about a year. She got pregnant, unexpectedly. But then when she became pregnant, she thought about it, and now young women can think about such things, and they can actually think about whether they want to have the baby. It's something to think about, rather than your parents are telling you that you have to have the baby, or your parents are telling you that she shouldn't have the baby. Her parents didn't tell her to have an abortion, and her parents didn't tell her to have the baby.

[35:10]

And she wanted to know if I, you know, would she be sent to Zen hell if she had an abortion. You know, she thought maybe that she couldn't open her mind to that possibility. She wondered if she could open her mind to that possibility. And I supported her to open her mind to having the baby or not having the baby. And I also encouraged her to open her mind to how extremely difficult it would be and what kind of responsibility this would be. And is she ready for this huge responsibility. You know, for somebody who had like zero responsibility, now we're going to more or less infinite. Is she ready for this? Does she want this? I asked her to do that. Not to try to talk her into getting an abortion, but come on now, let's just open up to how big a deal this is, okay? Please. So you don't spend years whining about, well, how did I get into this?

[36:13]

And somehow she, whatever, pretty much opened to that and said, I want this. I want this baby. This is my baby. I've got a baby. I want to be a mother. And she found out what she wanted. She wanted to be a mother. And then during the pregnancy, It was no more half-heartedness. She was wholeheartedly pregnant. She was a good pregnant person. Not a little girl who doesn't know what she wants to do. She was impressively pregnant. The way she did it. Very good. And then I saw her have the baby, you know. And I saw the baby... that I saw born give birth. This is one great moment in my life to see the little girl who I saw born now giving birth. This is, you know, fathers don't get to have babies but they get sometimes to see this thing.

[37:18]

And I get to be the father of a mother. And she was a good deliverer. And, yeah, I was just so proud of her. She was so beautiful. And I didn't really care for the little guy that much. You know, he just looked like a ball of red flesh to me. I just was not that impressed except I did put his legs in full lotus just to make sure everything was okay. But I, you know, people said, are you in sight? And then afterwards people said, are you excited about your grandson? And I said, not really. But I'm so impressed with my daughter. I'm so impressed to see her find her fullness, her completeness in this act of being a mother. And then everything after that, she was so unstinting, you know. She was like just this little research machine, you know, just checking out all the best ways to do this and appropriate ways to do this, just studying, studying like never in high college, you know, just becoming a great expert in motherhood.

[38:35]

And I knew she would find something like this. I didn't know a Bingbing mother would do it, but she found it. And I'm happy that I let her find it. I didn't tell her what it was supposed to be. I didn't find it for her so she would stop suffering not knowing. And it was difficult for us to watch our children grow up or watch our students grow up not knowing what it is because before they find it, it's hard for them to engage fully because it isn't it. They don't see it. And it was really hard, but she did a really good job and she's still doing a really good job. And the other thing that happened is once she started to be a mother wholeheartedly, Then she went back to school and she did that wholeheartedly. Because it's kind of funny to do this wholeheartedly and then go be a child, an irresponsible person over here. So she was fully responsible for a child and now she was a fully responsible student.

[39:40]

So she went from being kind of an F student to being an A student just because she did the student thing like she did the mother thing. And now she's a teacher and she does the teacher thing and she does the mother thing. So she's a really good teacher. She found out what she wanted to do and then she found out how wonderful it is to do things the way you do things when you really want to do them and to do everything that way. So in that sense I'm congratulating to some extent myself and her mother on letting her find her thing and not, you know, letting her not find her thing. Letting her not find her thing and not find her thing and not find her thing and not find her thing. And watching her and listening to her cry in pain when she hasn't found her thing. And asking her to do some chores, you know,

[40:43]

in lieu of, in the midst of her suffering of not finding her way, ask her to do some chores. Basic human chores. And at a certain point, she was not doing her chores. When she was 19, she was not doing her chores. And she had come back from college in the East Coast, where she was not doing her chores. And, you know, we were paying a lot of money for her not to do her chores. So she actually very kindly could see that it was kind of not very nice of her for us to be supporting her to not do her chores and be paying a lot of money for school, which she didn't want to do. So she came back and she was coming back to go to work and maybe go to school or maybe not. But she didn't go to work. She did not go to work, and then she did not go to work.

[41:48]

But she did go to play into the late hours of the night. And she got up at noon. And this went on for the whole summer, pretty much. Somehow she had the energy to be up all night. Her poor parents somehow didn't have the energy to stay up all night. But she did. and then she could sleep till noon and then she would get up and consider going to live for work but it was too late usually by the time she got going so the summer went like that and then it was time for me to go away to those mountains for three months and I didn't want to leave my poor wife with this big girl with all that energy unemployed not doing her tasks, not doing her chores so I talked to her mother and I said you know, I think I'd like to tell her that I want her to move out at the end of the week, in a week, if she doesn't get a job.

[42:49]

I wondered if you agree. And she said, I think I do. So I don't want to leave her, I don't want you to have to deal with her by yourself. I said, okay. So we had a meeting with her, we told her we wanted to have a meeting, and she came to the meeting. And I said, you know, I know you want to get work, and I know you've been trying to get work to some extent, but I don't want this to go on more than another week. So if you don't get a job at the end of this week, I'd like you to move out. And when I told her this, I looked right in her eyes when I told her this. And it's very important for me to do that because if I tell her something that she doesn't particularly want to hear, I don't like to tell her things she doesn't want to hear. I don't like to tell her things she doesn't want to hear. But she looks unhappy sometimes when I tell her things she doesn't want to hear.

[43:51]

I don't like to see that. So what I sometimes have done in the past is I tell her something that I want to tell her because that's where I'm at. I tell her about her dad, but I kind of look away to see the effect of the message. But this time I kept my eye on her and I watched the effect. And I kind of liked the effect. She didn't crumple. She didn't like it, but she was kind of there with me. Oh, by the way, just before I told her that, her mother said I changed my mind. And I said, okay, your mother's changed her mind. This is just from me to you. I'm telling you how I feel. This is what I want. And she says, well, if I move out, where am I going to live? And I said, well, yeah, right. you would have to figure that out. And I have full confidence that you will figure it out. You will find a place to live.

[44:53]

And, you know, you will take care of yourself. I know you can do it. You know, of course, there's a risk, but I'd rather risk that than risk you staying here. That's my choice. And she didn't want to hear this. It was not happy news to her. But I looked at her when I told her, and she looked right back at me and she was there with me and she didn't, you know, pout or she just looked right back at me and asked me those questions. And then she said, I guess, I don't know what, is that all? Or, well, good night. And we stayed in contact during the whole thing, which I think is very important when you deliver the message to your loved ones that you look and see what the effect of the message is. And particularly if it's like, well anytime it's always intense and hard to stay with it. But particularly if it's kind of like strong like that.

[45:56]

But we stayed in contact and she got up and she went you know, not real happily, but she went kind of like not, she didn't stamp out of the room. She walked out of the room and walked into her room and closed the door to her room, you know, not sweetly, but she didn't slam it. She often would slam it so hard that she would knock the, what do you call that, around the door? Huh? The molding, she'd knock the molding loose many times. And I'd go back and pound it back in. And the molding's still there, but it's very loose after being knocked out for many years. After her not accepting and fighting the message. But this one, she didn't really fight. She took it. And that was that. That was the message. But I felt really good about delivering it because I delivered it and stayed with her in the delivery. which I, in some cases in the past, I would deliver it and then I would look away a little bit, because I didn't want to see that face.

[47:04]

I don't like to see that face not happy with me. So I felt really good. I gave it. And also, I did not much, maybe a little, but pretty much, I just gave it. I wasn't trying to get her to move out of the house. This was not a manipulation. This was a message, a gift to her. I was not trying to manipulate her into getting a job. I was not trying to manipulate her to get out of the house. I was just telling her that I actually would want that. I would want that. I would like that. at this moment I would like that now after I tell you I might change my mind but right now this is where I'm at that's kind of how I did it and it was kind of a high point of the time when she lived with us and then the next morning this amazing thing happened she got up not at twelve but at seven thirty

[48:10]

or even before maybe, when I came back from meditation, she was already up. And she said, are you going to San Francisco today, Dad? We're out at Green Gulch. And I said, yeah. She said, can I go with you? I said, yeah. And then a little while later she came on and she said, which sweater should I wear? And like she never asked me before any consultation on her wardrobe. She would ask her mom sometimes, but she never asked me. So she asked me which one... I think she kind of told me that she was going to go look for a job. So she was asking me for which sweater to wear. Yeah, can I go into San Francisco with you and look for a job? Which sweater do you think is best? I said, I think that one. And she wore the one I suggested. And then she asked me about her shoes. And again, not before and not since has this happened. And I said, those.

[49:13]

And she wore the ones I suggested. And we drove to San Francisco. And I went to swim in the bay. And she went to look for a job. And when I got out of the water, she was waiting for me at the club where I go swimming. And she had her legs crossed. And she was like a girl does sometimes with her legs crossed and kind of kicking one of them like this. You know what I mean? You know what I mean? And she said, guess what? And I didn't guess. I said, what? And she said, I got a job. I got a job in an hour. Of course, she had to get dressed and go to San Francisco. But basically, from the time I dropped her off, she was back in an hour with a job. I thought she got two, but she told me recently that it was only one job.

[50:14]

And, you know, I wasn't that surprised. And again, if that girl came into my office or my store or whatever and sat down in front of me and said, you know, I really don't want to work for you. I would say, fine, thank you. I wouldn't hire her if she didn't want to work for me. That would really be a big mistake. And I think that's what she told the other people. She went in at 4.30 or something and said, I don't want to work here. And they said, thank you. But if that girl comes into somebody's office and said, I'd like this job, I think most people would hire her for pretty much anything, unless it needed a Ph.D. in physics or something, and she didn't have one. But basically, if she wanted to do a job, she can do pretty much anything. And if she told you that, she would. So I knew that almost any place she'd go, if she said, I want to work here, they would say, fine. And that's the way it's been ever since.

[51:19]

If she wants to work someplace, she goes there and they hire her. Because she wants to work there. And she hasn't gotten any job since that she didn't want to do. But the one she wanted to do, she got hired. Like that, every time. And then she said to me, do you think, do you think I got, do you think I got this job because of what you said last night? And I said, I don't know. I knew I had to say that. I knew that's the answer she wanted, but really I didn't know. She did not want to think that what I said to her manipulated her in to get a job, and I didn't think that either. It's kind of a mystery how this all happened, but of course I was very happy about the process, but I didn't know what led to what. But it was hard.

[52:21]

And it had to get quite hard before it got... before I did that last hard thing. And after that, it was easy. And since then, it's been kind of easy. We've moved to the appropriate level now. She's an adult, and she's found what she wants to do, and it's hard. And I found what I want to do, and it's hard. But it lines up with what's most important, so it's a joy. So how many people have heard the story of my daughter before? How is it for me to tell it again? Is it boring? So I feel like with her and of course in many other arenas of teaching, psychotherapy,

[53:46]

You name it. The key thing is, it's okay to say what you want. Because if you have a want, it's a gift to tell them what it is. And then be careful that telling them your want is information and a gift, but that you really want them to find out what they want in relationship to what you want. and you want to help them find out what they want with the information of what you want. And sometimes the information of what you want helps them find out that what they want is not what you want. But you're telling them what you want helps them find out what they want, which is not what you want. But then when they find out what they want, that really is what you want, but you didn't know it. Thank you. Any feedback on this or anything you want to bring forth about this kind of thing?

[54:58]

Any conflicts that you sense that you'd like to discuss? Are you? Hello. Hello. My son is fine. But a friend of mine has twins who are both addicted to drugs. And I'm wondering what kind of support I can give her. She's pretty lost. Your adult friend, the mother? Yeah. Would you like to hold this? I think I'm done talking. OK. Have you asked her what kind of support she would like? She's pretty lost. It's been about four years.

[56:13]

Do they live with her? Yeah. And they're 18. They're both, what, 18? Yeah. Are they twins? Yeah. Is she tender with them? She cries a lot. But she's soft. And her husband's hard. Is she tender with her husband? He's been gone most of the time because he's on the road with the rock and roll band. Is she peaceful with this painful situation?

[57:16]

No. She's honest about it? Is she honest about it? Honest about her pain? Her pain, her desires, is she honest? Is she upright? with this story of having two addicted children? She is? Upright as in messing up to it? As in not believing the story that she has? You just told me a story and I don't believe it or disbelieve it. I just heard you tell me a story. The story I have is you didn't just make that up to entertain me. But I do hear that as a story. And if I was on the scene, I would have a story too. But then I would try to be upright with my story about these boys or girls.

[58:18]

And that means I wouldn't really believe what I think is going on. And I wouldn't disbelieve it. That would be my attempt. And I would try to be tender with them, and I would try to be honest with them, and I would try to be peaceful with this story. And I would think that if she could be that way with them, that wisdom will come to her and to the situation. And from that wisdom, she may be able to offer them something which will help them find a different way to deal with things other than this, you know. There is something in a way tender about taking drugs because you're trying to like, you're trying to like, you're feeling very, you're probably feeling, you know, very sensitive and you're trying to dull the pain, right?

[59:21]

So it's not all bad, these addictions. This is a strategy, right? This is their strategy. So what is their need? And if she can be this way, she might see what their need is and help them find out what the need that this strategy is attempting to meet. She might be able to see that if she's this way with them. Now, she might be able to see it even if she's not tender and upright and peaceful. She still might be able to see it. And even after she sees it, it doesn't mean it's not the end of the story. Then she has to try to help them see if they heard what they saw, what she saw. So I think you could help her find out what these children's needs are and try to help them meet the needs.

[60:29]

Because if they can get the needs met by some other means, they may be able to shift the story. So there's a possibility that Of course, there's consequences of these actions which make it now harder to make the shift and harder to find the needs. And even after they find the needs and meet them by other means, there's still this other way that's hovering as perhaps in some ways easier because it's a less mature way of dealing with which they already know. the more adult way will be, in some sense, harder at the beginning. So I think you can help her find out with the kids what are they actually trying to satisfy by this and then try to find other ways to get to it. But like how you were going to have your daughter leave the house, do you think that that's a good thing to do with kids who are like that? It might be.

[61:33]

It's possible. You know, but again, you sort of have to, like, go there and open up to the situation to see if that feels like... In my case, I had confidence that my daughter would do about as well outside the house as in the house. She wouldn't have parental, direct, up-close parental support in her housing and food and so on. But she probably just moved to somebody else's house, you know. She had lots of rich friends. She could move into various, you know, like her friends have suites that they live in. She could move in with them and it probably wouldn't be any worse than her hanging out with us, probably. But it might be. Who knows? But I think if you could help her look at the situation and see if them moving out would be actually better for them or not.

[62:34]

And if it would be, then you might tell them to do that. And then from them living outside the house, continue to try to help them find out what it is. If that seemed like a better venue, it's possible that it would be. or to go to a treatment center and help her do what it takes to get them to a treatment center where they also will help them find other ways to meet their needs. They do have needs. They're trying to meet their needs by this kind of unskillful way. Pretty unskillful. But all strategies are, you know, Just an attempt. And so this one, it seems like, is somewhat successful. Because they're still alive and they want to do it again. So they're getting something out of it. Just like my grandson. Now he's addicted to the Game Boy. My dear little guy who used to want to go out and dig in the dirt.

[63:38]

Now he doesn't want to have anything to do with me anymore. He loves his Game Boy more than he loves me. Because he gets instant entertainment and ease and, you know, solace. Game Boy's a really good friend. He loves the Game Boy. It's set up to make him happy in this way. So he's addicted to it. So his mother parcels out how much... He has a limit of screen time every day, right? Limit of Game Boy-television. And computer is nice because I can do it with him. But still there's a limit. So I think that these addictions that the kids get into which are somewhat fostered by economic issues, people find things that people will pay for that are easier than other ways of satisfying these needs for entertainment and relaxation. But still they

[64:38]

with the request of the mother and friends, they might be willing to make the shift. Some other way to meet relaxation, entertainment, freedom from anxiety, or calming the anxiety and so on. So I don't think she needs to be lost indefinitely. I think you can help her find a path a path of wisdom to deal with these kids and help them find this thing. I don't know if you have time to do that with her, but maybe you do. It's hard when it's the focus. When you have a best friend and that's always the focus, that's hard. Yeah, it is. So then again, for yourself, I think what needs do you need to get met in your relationship with her? Try to find that. what's really like nourishing and encouraging way for you to be with her.

[65:48]

Try to get that clear for yourself before you try to help her. In other words, before she climbs on your shoulders, take care of yourself. Get your feet on the ground. Okay, now I'm good now. Okay, now you can climb on my shoulders. We can do this thing. I'm fine. This will be fun. This will be good. I'm ready for this. Or I'm not ready yet. I want to help you, but I'm not ready. I've got to get settled here. One, two, three. Okay, now let's do this together. Okay, yeah, and this is going well. Okay, I'm up for this. I want to help you, and this is good for me. Okay, that's enough. I'll come back another time. I'm not sure what I want to say.

[67:26]

I just wanted to be up here for a little bit. There's so many different stories I feel that come from here, different ways in which to It's a bit like a can of worms for me, that it's kind of used at different tangles. And it feels like a very raw place for me, just different things that come up. And I think I would want to hear some guidance or permission to tell some of the stories. I think maybe partly where I'm getting knotted is that I feel that they're too dangerous to tell or... or in danger in different ways to myself and to other people. And I noticed that I rarely, I mean, this was a rare thing for me, but that I rarely have requests of you.

[68:35]

And it came up for me when you were telling the story of your daughter that you wanted her to open to what the responsibility of having this child is. because you didn't want her to spend years whining about it. And that made me want to say, oh, Reb, I want to hear you say that you have compassion for people who do end up whining for years about a choice. I do. Thank you. And I feel, I want permission to blame my parents. You want permission? Okay, you got it. I do. And I want to know that it's a story, but it's a story I feel I need to tell before I can let go of it. Yeah. Thank you.

[69:37]

Thank you. Thank you. different words I have for some of the things that this stirs up, these conversations. most recent was about the wanting being able to say what I want because I think sometimes it comes out and it's fine and sometimes it comes out and I say what I want and it shocks people and then there are situations where the hell I cannot say what I want you know it's just so incredibly paralyzed for me to say what I want in some situations and underneath that I mean I see that as a parenting something as a result of parenting and one of the A couple of the two key things I think happened in my family, and particularly with me, was having your sanity questioned. And my mom wanted...

[70:45]

And this is a story, and I tell it, and it's been told by other people observing. So to say that she preferred to have her children be crazy than face the pain of the truth. And she tried to hospitalize me because I would tell the truth. And my younger brother did end up being hospitalized. And I don't know the truth of what, if he had mental illness with his case. But in my case, I never did. I mean, I got depressed because it was so difficult to live. Was so much. But, you know, finally in my 30s, just to please her, I went and, you know, she wanted me to be on medication. And I would refuse. And I went and got, you know, just as a gift to her, you know, went and got myself checked out in every way. And they said, there's no way. You need to be on medication. And I've had a life of not finding and dropping out and things.

[71:51]

And the only cause for that would be there was something wrong with me. The level of sanity where you would get locked up. So I have a huge fear that I will get locked up by somebody when I'm just telling what seems like the total truth to me. Which, you're telling the story. Yes. That it seems like the total truth to you. Yes, and I can forget that. And then I can forget that in terms of it being facts. Because, you know, if it's a fact, something's a lie or it isn't, you know, and so... At that level. That level what? At that level of truth, did I take the cushion or I didn't take the cushion? Did I? To be told. To be told. Well, for example, a small example is that She was getting dressed when I was six.

[72:52]

And I said, you look like you're pregnant. She says, no, I'm not pregnant. And she was. And she lied because she thought the kids, my older brothers were six and seven and eight, that they should wait to tell them until it was nearer the birth. So it was that kind of thing. And then later I got made fun of by my father and my brothers for thinking that she was pregnant and she wasn't. And it's that kind of thing that I was told that what I was seeing, which was true, was not, and then humiliated for it. And then it never was later said, oh, I'm sorry we did that. It was just, no. It was what? There was never a later apology or say I'm sorry. There was never that. It was left with something was wrong with me. I couldn't trust myself. I couldn't trust what I saw. I couldn't trust what I saw, even if it ended up being accurate.

[73:55]

So that was the kind of doubt, self-doubt. In a way, you did trust it, though, because you said it, so you did trust it. It's just that when they challenged you, I made it hard for you, but you trusted it enough to say it, and... And some of them didn't trust enough to say it. They said something else that no one would challenge. They said what, you know, they thought the party line was, but they learned if you say this, you won't get challenged, so then you can be sane, and people won't challenge you and crush you. But you trusted your story, and you trusted telling your story, but then the price was so high that it almost made you stop telling the truth.

[74:59]

Other people, it sounds like, according to your story, they gave up earlier. She gave up. My mom gave up. She gave up, and then everybody else colluded in that, played along with that, because it was so hard not to. Except, I guess, your brother, who didn't go along with it. I remember being made fun of that night by my two brothers and my father. I remember that. And so I don't remember afterwards, but later on, you know. So I don't know if anybody, no, they did. Did you just have two brothers and not three? I had three brothers. Yeah, three, and one died. One died, yeah. So did all three brothers make fun of you? Well, this was the brother that wasn't born yet. This was, I had two older brothers, and when we were nine, eight, and seven, my younger brother was born, and he's the one who died. And has any of your brothers apologized for this? I've never brought it up. I've never brought it up.

[75:59]

Do you think it might be good to bring it up? I don't know. It might be good. Yeah. I think maybe it's possible that it would be good for you to say this, this news story, this one that they never heard before. as a gift to them and see what happens when you give them this gift. But, you know, when you're ready, when you feel joy to give this gift, because I think there's some chance that that would be quite helpful, that there would be some way of healing the past by this. You might be just about ready to work on this. Oh, okay. Yeah, and I am. I mean, I feel like... I mean, you're doing it now. Yeah. And you can also bring this back to your brothers, which will change all of your relationship with your mother.

[77:03]

Okay. I hear underneath that there was a recurring theme of needing to be believed. You know, feeling so stricken at not being believed. And now I get at this point, it's really me. It's really, I need to believe myself. But that's where it has to start. Yeah, and you kind of do believe yourself. But not only do you need to believe in yourself, but after you do, then you need to find not so much other people to believe in you, but to welcome people's feedback to deepen, to deepen the realization. And that's... It'll deepen. It's deeper when you actually welcome feedback. And that was, there's so many, like a can of worms is that when we talked about feedback, that's something I consciously

[78:04]

Just those phrase, like one of my brothers has been doing a lot of work, and a couple years ago, part of his work was to contact a few of his closest friends and family, and he included me, which I thought was a great honor, to tell him what his weaknesses were. What do you think? What are my weaknesses? Give me feedback on my weaknesses. And I said, I'll tell you, but don't turn around and tell me mine. I couldn't handle it. And he looked kind of surprised, but I was very firm. I did not want to be told in return mine. And that's part of it. I see today is that how my life has been about avoiding criticism and humiliation, which is not a free place to be. And that's why they overcare. God, I couldn't bear to be criticized. So you need to find enough confidence in your story that you actually would like now some criticism of it. Exactly, exactly. Yeah, exactly.

[79:05]

So you're telling us your story now, and just keep telling it until you would like us to criticize it. Okay. You know? This and other ones, just keep telling us these stories until you feel like, now I need some help. in the form of, well, not necessarily criticism, but I need feedback. I need to be able, it's hearing it, it's the same thing, but not hearing it as criticism. But it could be criticism. Feedback can be critical. Criticism can be positive or negative, right? Critics sometimes write positive critiques and negative critiques, but it's part of the creative process. If you want to really open up, is to put it out there publicly and invite the critics. Mm-hmm. And you can start with who you want. Like you're telling the story here. This is a good place to start. It is. And you can say, and you can set a boundary. Like right now you say, I'm setting this out there and I'm putting a boundary that I do not yet want criticism, and I agree with that boundary right now.

[80:09]

And I also bring up the issue of moving it later when you want to. But right now I will share you setting up that boundary of telling stories and not yet asking for feedback. I don't know what else to say. Do you feel somewhat complete for now? For now, yes. That's fine, because, you know, it's dinner time. Oh, it's fast dinner time. Thank you very much. So it's kind of time to have dinner, so if you're ready, we can go to dinner. All right? Thank you. So please, if you'd like, I'll be here at 7, sitting quietly.

[81:17]

And if you have any suggestions to me of any particular direction you'd like to go tonight or tomorrow, I welcome your feedback, your suggestions of any directions you'd like to go. And of course, you're continually welcome to bring forth any particular stories of any particular type of relationship that you'd like just to help you with in the group or one-on-one. be nice if they hit the bell again but

[81:55]

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