Jean and Susan, would you move closer, please? Like about three or four feet. Thank you. Well, here we are again. Is there anything anyone would like to offer? Yes. This may not be necessary, but here it is. Can you hear me? I just wanted to briefly offer Last night you asked us, while we were meditating, if we even wanted to, we could continue to think about our deepest conviction, our ultimate concern.

[01:09]

But I wanted to share that, because it's part of my process here with everyone, that my ultimate concern is really the love and care I have for my wife and daughter. And I understand that from the teachings how that care begins there and goes to everyone. How my ultimate concern is really for my wife and my daughter, for my family. And through the talks today, I really have come to better understand how that concern for me begins there, but really it goes out from there to everyone. And it enlightens me in return. And it's part of my process and the deepening of my vow and commitment to share that with all of you. because I always feel your support in our practice together. Thank you. You can use this if you want to.

[02:32]

I guess I have a confession to make. I was disappointed earlier in the listening of the woman that was here before Elizabeth. I was personally hoping that you might ask her, when she said she had a concern about her friend, maybe what her needs were, rather than trying to help her problem-solve, how to help the friend. Are you talking about Kirsten? Right. Yes. Yeah. You were concerned about what? Well, I was more ... and I could watch myself have this story, but I was more I was tracking how you had said earlier that students had come to you and you had sort of thought maybe you could help them develop their practice the way you had developed your practice, and then you realized you needed to just help them to have their own practice.

[03:35]

And I was sort of thinking that with Kirsten, I personally would have liked to have heard what her needs were, like why she had a need about helping her friend. Does that make sense? instead of trying to facilitate the help to the friend. Like why she came up here to start with, really. Something past the friend. Thank you. Yeah. Or something before the friend. Right, right. Do you want to ask her? That'd be great. Do you want to come up and talk with Anita? You can use this. You can have these questions if you like. See, I was really hoping you would do this, but this is great. That's funny.

[04:45]

So what I heard you say earlier was that you had a concern for your friend who has twins that are 18 that are abusing drugs. And I was hoping to hear more about what your needs are that are not They're possibly not being met right now with regards to the situation Well, I Feel like I have a tendency to back away from her Because of the stuff that it brings up for me So it's true that there are layers and layers So I feel out of control. So probably a lot of it in my life was control due to a lot of abuse and things like that. So yeah, there's definitely layers.

[05:48]

Did she hear your... Yeah, but I'm interested in those layers, but probably we might not have time to go into that. Yeah. But we might have time to go into it if you guys want to. I think she was wondering what you need in relationship to your friend. Is that what you're wondering? Right. Maybe it's in relationship to everyone. Maybe it's in relationship to everyone. Sure. What is that? To practice to how I am with people and caring too much and maybe backing off. Is there anything that we could help you with in this regard? since we're here together now?

[06:55]

Well, I think that all the talking about the setting boundaries and control, but I think that... Is control a big one for everybody? So if you were to continue to talk about control, I think that would be helpful. Thank you. Thanks for bringing me back up. You're welcome. Thank you for showing up. And so... How about your needs in regard to this issue? Maybe I can talk about that. Because I was talking to Elizabeth about there's something really challenging about this Zen through this path that I personally don't think I could have arrived into this path without having done a lot of psychotherapy and a lot of body work. Because sometimes I get disappointed that...

[07:57]

In the way that people are heard, it feels like really quickly people from the Zen tradition say, well, this is your story. And it can feel, I sometimes, because of all my stories, it feels dismissive of what's happening inside a person's body. And the way that I have actually been able to To stay sane and perhaps go crazy in a beautiful way has been to go through the body and experience that. So a lot of times for me when I'm listening to Zen teachers listen, There's a part of me that feels not nourished, but I can handle that because I feel like I've been nourished in other arenas. And I can also see from the Zen way, or my understanding of the Zen way of being, that that's just the story, too.

[09:13]

It gets tricky for me. It gets tricky? Yeah. Now, so when you hear, for example, when you hear me, for example, responding to people, when you hear it, you're saying that some part of you doesn't get nourished, is that what you said? Well, it feels like I have to go kind of mental in order to stay with the program and feel nourished. But I'm not able to sort of stay in contact with my soma or my body. So then I start... kind of overthinking and thinking, well, you know, I mean, I work in people's bodies all day and a lot of times, to me, their body is the same as their mind, the way that they're organized. So I can track that way, but it's not restful in my body because I have to kind of go into my mind to figure it all out. And... Do you sometimes...

[10:24]

work on your mind with your body without leaving your body? Right. That's my preferred method. Yeah. But sometimes when you hear these conversations, sometimes you feel like it's hard to relate to the conversation and stay in touch with your body. Right. Whereas in other settings I've not experienced it that way. That you can follow the... and the discussion, the words, and still be in touch with your body at the same time. Correct. I really appreciate that, sharing that perspective. Can I ask a question? Give me an example that you don't know of. Like yoga? Are you asking a question of like an example of when I felt or when it's easier to stay connected?

[11:38]

Yeah, like as opposed to Zen teachings, whatever. Yeah, I've thought about that to try and understand if it's just some wrinkle, but... I mean, I've just had therapists where we're tracking, we're actually tracking the story by tracking the body. And so the story is not so important, really, but what the sensations in the body, what's going on in the body becomes a way of unwinding the story. And then you even just lose track of the story and you're more embodied. Yeah, that way. a kind of psychotherapy where you're working with the story through your body. Right. And then you aren't so attached to the story, but you're more at home in your body. Have you read Sherry Cooper?

[12:49]

I've studied with her a little bit. Well, I personally would like to no longer have this story of tracking this place, so that's why I'm not here. You would personally like to what? I no longer have this story of having to track this way. I mean, you know, I'd like to be bigger than this container that I've created or that I've been exploring. Because I think it's a little bit limiting at this point. So it's been useful up to this point, but you're now, you're broaching perhaps another dimension where you would still be in touch with your body and open to some areas where, and you see you are opening these areas, but as you're opening to them, it's hard for you to open to them at the same time to stay in touch.

[13:55]

Right, and to know if I need to stay with the Zen path. Also, we say Zen path, but it may not be the Zen path, but just the way that the Zen path is presented by some people is not necessarily the Zen path. I understand. So just maybe some of the Zen teachers, people who are so-called Zen teachers or who are at Zen centers, the way they are interacting with each other when you watch it, Like you say, if you don't, I guess you're saying it's hard for you to understand it unless you go up in your head. Right. And when you go up in your head, you want to go up in your head and stay with your body. So it's hard for you to do it that way. But how is this conversation? Well, I feel always, whenever I've interacted with you, I feel like I can stay connected into my body. But it's very strange because I do sort of feel like I'm being listened to from here, but somehow it's a different frequency, which is interesting for me.

[15:05]

You feel like I'm listening to you from my head? No, I feel thoroughly listened to, but the way that you listen is the... I don't even know how to explain it just yet. It's a different experience for me, but I appreciate the way that you listen. And now, what kind of body's head thing is happening now? I know, see, this is sort of like, or I'm guessing this is what Elizabeth was saying. Like, I feel like if I say I'm relaxed, then the Zen thing would be, oh, so that's your story. Oh, yes, it is, just for the moment. Why don't you try it? So why even talk about it, you know? Why don't you try it and see what happens? You're kind of predicting, right? Yes. At the dinner table, we had different understandings of the context, but there was some kind of... The confusion that we had, several of us, about, am I correct, about these was when we experienced some distortion or fell on some store that you were hearing, that's your story, and tried to trouble

[16:24]

feeling completely our stories, validating our stories with feeling and perspective, punctuation, before moving on to the next step up. And let's also remember that however skillful, however compassionate our story is, there's still a place where it's, there's still a way in which it is our story, but still to be respected. And somehow, I had a feeling, perhaps a negative feeling, that we were, Failing to somehow skipping over steps that we needed to take in order to do it fully, feel it fully, be in our lives fully. And so the only way to do it was to go into the head. Now that may not be what you thought, but that was my part, my feeling in the background of that context.

[17:26]

But we were hoping perhaps that Brett might be able to help us as he helps us to understand it's our story. To help us not lose track of the steps that we need to take when we get to it's our story. The validation and the how are we feeling and the respect for the story, the truth of it. So Elizabeth was having to say, but it was fact. My mother lied. because you have trouble maybe slipping on that story, having to say, you know, this was the story, this was back. So there's just been some confusion, I felt, where we get lots of help to straighten that out in our lyrics books. I heard you say that sometimes you hear someone tell someone else that that's their story and that seems dismissive.

[18:36]

Right. That's what it feels like. Yeah. So I'm recommending not to go around and tell other people that that's their story, even though I might do that. But I'm mostly recognizing that I take care of my own story, which is going on. And my story is going on in my body and my mind because it's a psychophysical story. It's a story that, you know, like you have a story that you're hungry, you know, or you have a story that you want to watch, play with your Game Boy. But the story of playing with your Game Boy has something to do with that your body wants you to relax. So your body says, I think if you go play the Game Boy, you'll feel more relaxed. So then you think, I want to play the Game Boy. But you're not necessarily aware that your body is wanting you to relax.

[19:39]

Your body could just tell you relax, but it kind of knows you don't know how. But if you play the Game Boy, you'll relax. So the body says, play the Game Boy. I mean, the body sends you a message, make up a story about playing Game Boy. And then you relax, because the body wants you to relax. It doesn't want you to play the Game Boy. The body sort of knows about the Game Boy, but not really. It's not really into the Game Boy, except it'll get the fingers to move on it. So the stories do come from the body. But if the stories are not observed, consciously. The body is not, as far as I know, does not have the agenda to watch the stories. As far as I know. It's very hard for the body to send that message. So that message seems to need to come in through the ears, through language.

[20:43]

I think And even the somatic work is, you know, at first if somebody's talking to you about it and directing your attention to the body, so I'm not talking you out of this, I'm just trying to explore a possibility of being aware of our stories and as a way to eventually understand how they're integrated with our body. And if I would say that's your story to somebody, I just want to, I could say, instead of that is your story, are you in touch with it, you're telling a story now? Not to discount it, but just to check to see the person, are you aware that that's a story? So like, if you say your mother did something, it's not that she didn't do it, because she probably did, but what she did is not what you're telling us now. Like if you say, yesterday was Friday, that's true, but what you just said is not Friday.

[21:52]

Friday is not, you know, my story of Friday, and my story of my mother is not my mother. Even though it's true, yesterday was Friday, still that story is not, Friday isn't that story. That's the story I'm telling today. And even yesterday, if I say, it's Friday, that statement is not Friday. Friday includes it, but a bunch of other people are saying it's Saturday over in Japan, right? It's okay, it's Friday here at Mount Madonna. Okay, fine, it's true. In a sense, it is Friday. You can verify a lot of people would agree with it, but a lot of beings would not agree with it. Like, for example, the birds will not agree with it. The rats will not agree with it. But it's true, it is Friday within our context. But if we lose track that there's a story about Friday and not Friday even though it is Friday, I think that's a little, you know, that's a little bit of a problem. But also we should just be aware, I do think it's Friday.

[22:58]

And if we can do that and stay in touch with our body, it seems like all the more satisfying a kind of meditation. And if we can go from bodily awareness to story awareness, that seems good too. And it may be that a big part of Zen is, first of all, to get bodily settled, and then go to start looking at your stories. We don't tell people at Zen Center right away to start studying their stories. We usually start by entering the room sitting in a certain posture. That's the way we usually start, is with the body. And I, in some sense, telling you this, dealing with these relationships and stuff is more advanced practice than just basically sitting. So anyway, I appreciate your comment and I think that if you do practice with Zen people to

[24:00]

to tell them about your difficulty of following their conversation while still staying in touch with your body, I think that that's, if there's a way for you to tell them that that doesn't frighten them too much, that would be helpful to them. And if they, you know, if you give it as a gift and they listen to it, then they might be able to tell you, oh, okay, I'll think about whether I'm, whether I'm able to talk about this without leaving my bodily awareness. And they might say, you know, I think you're right. I think I left too. So now let's try, let's now together try to talk in a way that we don't have to leave our bodily awareness to be mentally alert. So that you can... Did you use the word fit in? Fit in? fit in? Did you use that? I think some other people maybe have used that during this retreat. They don't know if they fit in to Zen.

[25:03]

They have some idea of what a Zen student is like and they wonder if they're like that kind of person, whether they're allowed because they're kind of different or something from what they think the other Zen students are like. But anyway, I think that your background and you have a unique gift to give and this awareness of what's happening in your body is a is a unique gift and that's happening but also you have a story about that which is not it but you do have a story because you're a human being and you can make stories about what's going on with your body and mind but still this is a unique thing you're working on and I appreciate you offering it and I'm glad you could come up and say what you said about this interaction with Kirsten and we can talk about what happened with how it went with Elizabeth. And you could also talk to Elizabeth about whether that conversation, whether during that conversation how she was doing with her body in that conversation.

[26:11]

That might be interesting for you to discuss with her. I don't know if she can remember, but And it may be that what I heard, I mean, I have a problem with heads separate from the body. So that conversation was totally satisfying to me. And I've been working very much on the body because all the stomach, it's here. And I heard today for the first time from Bruce, because I heard that there's a brain in our gut. He said there's also a brain in our solar plexus. And it's very interesting to me to have all these. And I'm working with an Ayurvedic practitioner about this area. These are the stories that are coming from this area that's so locked for me. So that's what I'm speaking from and working from. It makes me, and I feel in the same way, like I said, from the very beginning. I've never had an issue with that, which is one of the astonishing events in my life.

[27:13]

So you are very different than me. And I really appreciate, just a few minutes ago, that there may be a whole area that I've been unaware of where I have left my body and my head very comfortable that way. So I haven't even noticed that there's other ways of listening that are yours that I totally miss in my life. So that's my experience. So I'm really excited about this area I miss. Any more gifts you want to give? No? OK. Thank you. Any more gifts?

[28:15]

Well, I'm not sure what I want to... It's orange. It's red. Yes, you can. Longer. It's off. Yeah. Yeah, because it was green before, right? Let me try. It looked quite green. Yeah, it's going from green. It's going from kind of amber to red. I think it's a sick puppy. Paul? People can usually hear me. That's true. She doesn't need it. When I'm not supposed to be heard. Unless I'm trying to think of what I want to say. I don't know exactly what I wanted to say, but something in the realm of what Anita was talking about. I feel like I've heard this teaching about stories for many years now and I understood it and I also came with a sense of the world as people by myriad stories that aren't the same story about whatever.

[29:51]

And so I was receptive to that way of teaching. And the more I studied it, the more I came up against this place, which I think is kind of part of the place that we're talking about, where I might mentally or intellectually understand that my story's a story, but my body's telling me it's the truth. And so it's sort of like, and I didn't know what to do with that. It's just like, there it is. I understand, but my body, you know. And I also understood that one of the things that we say is that I'm holding on to the story when I'm in that condition. And I was willing to believe it, but it felt like the story was holding on to me, you know. And then somewhere along the way, it started to change. And I feel like as it changed that I, that there's a level of the teaching about stories that I didn't understand until I understood it in my body.

[31:00]

So I guess that's why I wanted to say that. But it's not dismissive. It sounds dismissive if I'm caught in a story. But to be freed from being caught in a story, I can realize that it's not at all dismissive to say that's a story. It actually is honoring this wild feeling or whatever it might be. So that's what I wanted to say. But then, of course, I have some sense of appreciation for stories. I come from a world of stories. Can you take your story and just change it? Like, can she take her story, which is a very sad story, it made me cry, but at the same time I thought, you could take that same story and make it, like, wow, she's an incredible person today, and why not make that your story? That you survived. That's your new story. Is that beneficial? What? What?

[32:04]

Can you do it? Can you just change your story? I think your story changes, but I don't know that I'd change my story. In my experience, the story does change, but I couldn't, like, if I tried willfully change it, I'm still stuck in the story. I would... May I answer that? You should. I... I can only change it, and I think I tell it so I can change it. That's the whole point. I have to say, this really is, has me. This was a story that caused me. And I need to have it heard fully and accepted and loved. It disputes, you know, it has, and then, you know, maybe it's even, at this point, I have to have other people hear it, not just me. And with that so, Then, absolutely, I think it rewrites itself. I think it just does. So that would be my best guess in the answer.

[33:06]

But if you don't feel like it's been heard and loved, then, well, you're stuck, but also you don't want to let go of the story until it's been heard. Because this story needs to be heard. It deserves a hearing. Once it has a hearing, then it can drop away. Or let the next story come. But this one is not going to let the next one come if nobody loves it. It deserves, like all beings, every story deserves to be loved. And if it's not loved, it kind of hangs around and keeps demanding to be heard. So then it doesn't seem to change, but it actually is changing, but we're missing out on it because it hasn't been attended to. I think both in what Marjorie just said and what Elizabeth said and what you said, there was an emphasis on the story being heard by another person or other people and being loved and embraced.

[34:26]

But in my body, as you spoke that, I felt like the hardest place for me to get the story heard and embraced is in my own life. Usually you go to a restaurant and the people here across the restaurant are drinking.

[35:42]

But here you are, we look at the raucous. Just, you know, carbohydrates. It's lovely that you're developing this friendship with each other. And that too, when you realize people are quiet, you start to quiet down. You develop the silence to salvation. It's really great. All right. I'll share. Wow, some powerful energy. It's red. It's red.

[36:43]

Yeah. Did you want to talk? I just want to say that I've returned. Welcome. Well, your comment about our raucous celebration in the hallway was a really perfect segue for me to come up, because I was going to tell you this later, and I realized that That wasn't going to work for me because what I wanted to share was I wanted to apologize to you because I'm concerned that when I came in from the Rockets hallway full of joy and energy and wanted to share with you like a three-year-old, you know, sometimes I get like that with you.

[37:50]

And especially having been vulnerable earlier, I get very three-year-old. And so I came bounding in in my three-year-old. being wanting to share with you and I think you were meditating and I kind of realized that hopefully that was one might say rather inconsiderate of me and so I didn't want to wait until later to apologize because I would be doing the same thing again sort of so I thought I'd better just apologize in the context where it's an open floor to talk to you you know Oh, well, what I told you was that earlier you shared a story with us about how when your daughter asked your opinion about her sweater and her shoes, that she actually followed your advice.

[38:56]

And that I shared with you that earlier today you suggested that I might talk to Karen. And at the time you said that, I thought, I don't know Karen. But what I shared with you was that I've been talking with Karen all evening, and it's been really very wonderful. So thank you. You're welcome. Thank you. Let's see, I wanted to say, number one is, give myself another compliment, is that when I'm meditating, when I'm meditating deep in my body, and three-year-olds come up to me to talk to me, come bounding up to me,

[40:00]

I almost always feel welcome. I almost feel welcoming. I almost always feel welcoming when three-year-olds come pounding up to me when I'm meditating. So I appreciate your sensitivity, but for me it's lovely when three-year-olds come bounding. It's lovely when three-year-olds come to visit me when I'm meditating. But when the three-year-old is older than three years old, and they, what do you call it, they hesitate as they come bounding, then I might give them some feedback about the hesitation.

[41:03]

But the three-year-old is no problem. They're just coming up to talk to me. Do you see? And I just want to help people be unhesitating, like a three-year-old. But usually they start to think, But maybe you made it all the way before you did that. Maybe it was afterwards that you did that. I don't know. And I also wanted to say that I've been giving myself lots of compliments about my relationships with my daughter. But I also want to say that I did make mistakes with her, too. Like, for example, I went away from her to the mountains, and I didn't understand. She was too little to tell me, and I didn't understand how hard that was on her. I didn't get that that was hard on her, and I didn't understand that she wouldn't be able to tell me because she couldn't express it.

[42:16]

So now I'm trying to I'm trying to, if you'll excuse the expression, make it up to her by relating to her son to show her that I'm trying to learn about that now. And also, sometimes she would be talking to me and I guess I thought that if she was saying, Dad, if I heard that she was saying, Dad, and I was listening I didn't have to say, yes. So I didn't. And then she would say, dad, again. And I would hear it again. And I would think, yeah, I heard you. But I wouldn't say anything. And then she said, dad, a third time. And then I would say, oh, yes. So I missed the first two calls or whatever.

[43:21]

I thought she knew I loved her so I didn't think I had to say yes right away. That was hard on her. And also sometimes she would get frustrated with me and call me, you know, some some terrible name, like I don't know what. Oh no, she would say, I hate you. She would say, I hate you. And I always thought that was funny that she said that. That this person who I loved and who loved me was telling me she hated me. I thought it was funny. And I would laugh. And then she would really get upset and storm off. But that's not what she meant. It wasn't true. She couldn't really say what she felt. And what she said was this funny thing called, I hate you. Rather than articulate what it was in such a way that I could stop and get it and not laugh.

[44:30]

And finally, again, when she was older, maybe a teenager, instead of saying, I hate you, she told me what it was. And I could get it, and she nailed me with it, and I took the nail. And she was finally successful at telling me what this was. It wasn't hate. It was something else, you know, and I got it. I mean, it penetrated me. But it was difficult for us, she and I, because she was telling me something and I kind of took it on a literal level. You know, like, I hate you. That's funny. And I didn't think, you know, what is she actually talking about? What does this mean? I didn't, it seems simple now, but I didn't stop and say, what, What's she trying to tell me?

[45:33]

What does that mean? What's that a strategy for? What does she need from me now? I didn't stop. I was too busy being a Zen student, you know, and I didn't think my job was to sort of wonder what she's talking about. So I missed a lot of stuff like that. So in that way I wasn't a very good dad. So I'm still studying my relationship with her, still wondering what it is, still checking on it, still asking for feedback.

[46:52]

And it's still hard, actually, to get her to tell me what is going on. And I don't know if she wants to take any more walks with me or not, but I think I will bring up that she owes me quite a few if she's up for it. This is the suggestion box. May I make a suggestion?

[48:05]

Perhaps you could invite her to have a walk with you. Yeah, I do. I do invite her. And I will. I guess I heard it. I heard what you just said. I heard it as remind her that she owes me. Oh, I see. Oh, okay. Okay, thank you. But she does owe me. Thank you. That's a fact. And I owe her. That's a fact. But the way I owe her is not what I just said. It's something a lot bigger than that. But coming from that ocean of owing her, I think I can invite her to take a walk if she has time in her busy schedule.

[49:23]

Well, thank you for your gifts. in our relationship with each other here. And if there's no further gifts, we can get some rest. So we'll be perky tomorrow. Anything else? Yes? Is there someone here named Tom? Are any Toms here? Okay, no Toms. That's it. Did I? I did. Catherine bought me dinner. And I...

[50:16]

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