which I want to tell it relates to the visit to the temple in Kobe where the birthday party was I think that was maybe around 1974 or 75 we visited that temple and then when I went back 13 years later at the time of visiting Mumon Roshi, when he was very old, and I was really wondering what a Zen master is. Then after meeting him, I went back to his temple in Kobe. I went back and I visited. The teacher who was there at that time was one of his students. And... The master at that time was one of his students.

[01:01]

And after the visit to the men's monastery the monks gave us a place to stay that night which was down the hill and we went into the place and we stayed there and it was an empty building and we went to sleep there and then in the morning when I got up I just thought could this be the building where the women's monastery was? It was completely empty. No people were living there. So I walked around and found the entryway that I came in when I visited before. And I stood in the entryway and I looked up to where the altar was and it was the same building. But the light was gone.

[02:23]

The light from the building was, the light the building was giving off when I went in the door was gone because the conditions for the light were gone. The nuns had left. And then I found out where did they go and they said their teacher died. And then all the nuns went to different monasteries. So the building that had this wonderful light coming out of it just went, just became like a garage, like an empty storage room, which was okay to sleep in, but it was interesting to see the life, the appearance and the reality of the practice was gone. So it was very, very... I was moved to see it when I first visited. I thought, wow, it's amazing. You can feel this image of the practice. There's some great practice here.

[03:31]

I don't know what it is. And then coming back, I couldn't see it. So I just wanted... That's the next part of the story. Is there anything you'd like to... Yes. Want to sit up here? Thank you. So do you think it would be helpful to have the idea of meeting the Dharma as I meditate? I think it would be good to say I wish to meet the Dharma and also any idea I have of meeting the Dharma I'll be kind to that idea, but I wish to become free of my ideas of the Dharma so I can meet the Dharma. I wish to become free of my ideas of the Dharma so that I can be open to meet the Dharma, which is not my idea.

[04:39]

But to express my vow to meet and enter the Dharma when I sit, I hope this sitting can be meeting and entering the Dharma, but I also know that I have to become free of my idea of Dharma to meet Dharma. And it's difficult for us to walk around without an idea of Dharma. We like to have an idea of Dharma. But I'd like to give it up and rather carry the idea of what is Dharma to to inquire, to bring my life to inquire about what it is together with you. And if you say something and I have an idea that what you said wasn't Dharma, I wish to give up, let go of that idea, even though I have the idea, maybe. Or that what you said is Dharma, I'd like to let go of that idea, too, in hopes that we could meet

[05:47]

and realize it. But I would like to walk around the question, what is it? How can we meet it? Which brings to mind, I went to China one time And I was visiting a temple which is called Dung Shan, which is the temple of the person Dung Shan, who is considered the founder of Soto Zen in China. And there's a bridge there going over a river, and on the bridge it says where he met it, where he encountered it. And that refers to a time in his life when he had left his teacher. And before he left his teacher, he said, if someone asked me what you're teaching, what should I say?

[06:49]

And his teacher, Dongshan's teacher, Yun Yan said, just this person is it. and then Dungsan left and walked for about 150 miles and he was crossing a river that river that I was standing in and he saw his reflection in the mirror and he met the person the meeting occurred and that was his great entry into the Dharma and then And he stayed there and started his temple. And on the bridge they say where he met it, where he met himself was not himself. Wherever I go, I meet him, he said. He is not me in truth. I am him.

[07:49]

So, you know. Anything else you wish to discuss? Yes? Explain about emptiness? Well, when I was speaking of three characteristics of phenomena, like three characteristics of you or three characteristics of me, one characteristic is I see you. I see an image of you. You appear to be over there. And I appear to be over here. That's one characteristic. That's called the imaginary characteristic, which my mind creates about you.

[08:51]

And then there's another characteristic of you, which makes it possible for me to make a story about you. There are some conditions that are coming together to make it possible for me to make a picture of you. That's the other dependent character. And the third characteristic, which is emptiness or reality, is that my story of you is totally absent in you. There's nothing about my story in you. And the image of you being separate from me is totally just insubstantial. It's just a fantasy. It's just an illusion. That's emptiness. It's the absence of any projection on things. It's the way things are free of our ideas about them. Please take care of emptiness.

[10:01]

Yes? What is a memory? How is it different from an imagination? I think they're very close. I've heard, you know, also just what came to my mind, here's an image. The image is that in the brain, the place where you have memories and where you make images of what's happening now, they're right next to each other. And if you look at the scientists currently looking at it, they can't really tell the difference between the way a memory is functioning and the way a current image of the present is functioning. So you could say a memory is just an image that you associate with the past.

[11:09]

This is like now I'm looking at you and I look away and now I have a memory of you, which looks different than when I look at you right now. Just a second, I'll close my eyes. That was easier to remember you. Now I'm remembering you. Now you don't look like what I just saw, but it is the best I could do to remember you. But to me it looks like an image, but it was kind of a memory. And when we walk out of here, some people might say, do you remember? having a conversation with Ben? Jump in?" And I say, yeah, I kind of do. But at that time that will be an image of them asking me the question and me having an image of our conversation, which of course is not our conversation, but you could say, well, that's your memory of the conversation.

[12:21]

But it's a current imagination of the conversation. which I say, is my version of that conversation which is gone. And what I just did was just, you know, thinking about your question with you. And I'm not saying that's what a memory is. That's just my fantasy of a memory. What a memory really is, is free of what I just said to you. Yes? Can you say something about unhealthy dependence and dependence on offerings? Could you say it louder, please? Can you say something about unhealthy dependence and dependence on offerings? I'm having trouble hearing you. Maybe you could come up here. I was wondering if you could say something about unhealthy dependency and dependence on all things.

[13:35]

Unhealthy dependency. Well, before I do, could you say something about unhealthy dependency? Feeling small. Okay. What comes to my mind... Pardon? Not a part of things. Feeling small, not being a part of things. Okay, my first response to that is that if I act from being afraid of feeling small, if I do something sort of because I'm afraid of being small and I'm trying to, yeah, I'm trying to get away from feeling small, that kind of response I would say is unhealthy. But if I feel small, and I'm really welcome to that feeling small. Welcome all of it. Welcome the feeling small. And I think welcome, if I feel small, and welcoming feeling small opens me to being, to realize that that smallness is not... Who you are.

[14:49]

Is not who I am, right. But it's a feeling or an image of being small. But I really think it's important not to be afraid. I shouldn't say not to be afraid. It's important to be kind to feeling afraid about being small. And if we can be kind to being afraid about being small, we can let go of the feeling of being small. And also be kind to the feeling of being big. Some people are afraid of being big, I suppose. So the point is to become free of imagining myself big and free of imagining myself being small. Not to abide in either. But we don't get to not abiding in them by pushing them away. Or repressing them. Hmm? Or repressing them. Or repressing them. Repressing them, yeah. So you let them all come to light. Including the fear that might come with them. And then we can become free of them, not abide in them, become free of them.

[15:51]

So, feeling small and feeling afraid of being small, or just plain feeling small and being embarrassed about feeling small, or whatever, anything, the whole thing, if we can really totally welcome it, we cannot abide in it. And then that's how we enter the great vehicle. So the point is to become conscious of everything. Being conscious of what's happening is a starting place for being kind to it. So some people feel small, are afraid of feeling small, and they don't even notice that they're feeling small and that they're afraid of it. So it's important to get in touch with, I'm feeling afraid, and what am I feeling afraid about? I'm feeling afraid about being little. Now I'm becoming conscious, now I can practice with that. We don't even know necessarily where we're abiding. So we have to find where we're abiding so we can practice with it and then let go of it.

[16:56]

not by doing something other than practicing, just practicing with it, let's go with it. Just keep practicing. No, practicing and then we'll get more presence, like become aware that I feel small and become aware that I'm afraid, which is a difficult present to accept, but that's the great vehicle. You just have to keep practicing all the unwanted parts. Okay? Thanks. You're welcome. I guess we'd like to come up. I'm not close enough. I'd like you to come up. You can stay there. So... So I was reading the other day, and I think what I was reading was ascribed to the Buddha saying, I say that the things exist that wise people say exist, and I say that things that don't exist, that wise people say don't exist.

[18:17]

Listening to what you've been saying, it seems like one way of understanding what you've been saying is that nothing exists in any way that we can actually know. And, you know, I'm struggling with, A, whether I'm understanding you properly, and, B, how to make use of that in terms of getting through my life as it presents itself. Yeah, I would say what we know is appearances. But the appearance of things is not what things are. I know the appearance of you, and that's the way you allow me to make appearances of you. Thank you. And I can know you that way. you don't come, you know, making sense to me.

[19:22]

So I make a story about you and then you do make sense. And I'm... my mind is addicted to making sense of you, to telling stories about you. But my stories about you are totally absent in you even though you support them by what you are. But what you are is a mystery in me. And I make the mystery into something knowable I have the mind, the body-mind, which is able to do that with you. But the way I imagine you doesn't exist. So is there any honest answer to what am I, what are you, besides I don't know? Yeah, there's other honest answers. There's unlimited honest answers. And the honest answers have three characteristics.

[20:25]

Honest answers. Yeah. There is a fantasy of the honest answer, which doesn't exist. There's the other dependent character of the honest answer, which exists conventionally. And then there's the fact that the honest answer is completely free of my idea of honest answer. And that also exists conventionally. It does exist conventionally. Does it also exist absolutely? No. It does not. I shouldn't do that. What exists absolutely. There's nothing that exists absolutely. Thank you very much. You're welcome. Thank you for your talk.

[21:37]

I'll ask the question here and if I could take the answer over there with the other people, that'd be great. Question is, can beginner's mind be taught No. But it can be realized. So again, if you ask, like if somebody was like a famous teacher of beginner's mind, and you went to talk to that person, that person wouldn't be able to teach you beginner's mind. But they could show you stuff, they could show you how they're living, But what they're showing you is just calling the maid.

[22:43]

They're just calling you to come and meet them. But they're not going to teach you and you're not going to teach them. But your meeting will learn the teaching. So there's a story which is called Wong Bo's Dreg Slurpers. So Wang Bo went into the hall, and his monks were there, and he took his staff and tried to chase them out of the hall, swinging his staff at them, and they didn't move. They kind of froze. And he said, if you carry on like this, how will you have today? He said, you're drug slippers. Don't you know that in all of China, there's no teachers of beginner's mind?

[23:47]

And one monk dared to come up and said, but what about all these Zen monasteries and all these teachers? And Wong Bo said, I didn't say there's no beginner's mind. I said there's no teachers of beginner's mind. And then there's a commentary story on this. It's about this wheelwright. One of the ancestors of this temple is a man named Wheelwright. A wheelwright is a person who makes wheels. So the Chinese aristocrat named Ji Hung was in his estate reading a book. And outside his room the wheelwright was working on his wheels. And the wheelwright said to Lord Ji Hung, Sir, what are you reading?

[25:00]

And Ji Hung said, I'm reading the teachings of the ancient sages. And the wheelwright said, are they dead? And Ji Hung said, yes, they are dead. And the wheelwright said, well, then you're drinking the dregs of the ancients. You're a dreg slurper. If I were to teach you beginner's mind or you were to teach me beginner's mind, as soon as I received your teaching, I'd be drinking a dead teaching that you have so kindly given to me. Thank you very much. And then the Lord Ji Hung said, I don't know if it's appropriate for a wheelwright to be talking that way to a Chinese aristocrat.

[26:05]

He said, if you can have a good response to this, okay, if you don't, you will die. So the wheelwright said, I think of it in terms of my work. If I go slowly... It's easy, but the wheel's not firm. If I go fast, it's hard, but it doesn't go on. Not going fast and not going slow, it comes into my hands and accords with my mind. I cannot teach this to my son, and he cannot learn it from me. We can practice beginner's mind together, but you can't teach it to me and I can't teach it to you. If I'm teaching you, that's not beginner's mind. And if you're teaching me, it's not beginner's mind. I can give up being a student, you can give up being a teacher.

[27:10]

And sit on the seat of emptiness and wear the robe of kindness and patience in the room of compassion together. And nobody knows whose Bodhidharma is or who Wong Bo is. And then when the teacher comes running at us with the stick we can run away terrified like silly little chickens. which reminds me of another story which I told, also happened in Japan. Mumon Roshi was still alive and I don't remember if he was at this ceremony, but anyway, we're at this ceremony at this beautiful new temple which is right next to a golf course in Chiba-ken. And they were going to have an animal releasing ceremony

[28:16]

So they'd set up a beautiful little altar outdoors, right next to the golf course, and they brought in these crates of chickens. Chickens in cages. And we did the ceremony, made the offerings, and then at the conclusion, at the climax of the ceremony, the doors of the cages were open and the chickens flew out into the golf course. And when the ceremony was over, there was a lovely vegetarian reception for the people who came to the ceremony. And I was helping clean up the altar after the ceremony. And I noticed that the chickens were coming back from the golf course and climbing back into the cages. Any other questions? Yes. I felt confused when you answered Albert's last question.

[29:25]

Yes. I feel like you've answered the question differently before. Yes. So you said, does anything exist absolutely? Is that the question? Somewhat. And you said nothing exists, absolutely. Right. Correct. Correct. Things only exist in this other dependent way. Can you explain that? Because I think my understanding of what you meant when you answered him was perhaps incomplete, so therefore it fell from victory to things you said in the past. What did I say in the past? It contradicts it. That there is something, like when you say, which you say a lot, conscious construction only. Yes.

[30:26]

Upon clarification, it was my understanding that you didn't mean there's only conscious construction event. That's all we have. But in class when we were discussing... Right there. Right there. That's... Conscious construction is the only way things exist. It's the only way they exist. Things are actually free of existence and non-existence. The way you really are is a woman who is free... of existence and non-existence. This is the middle way which Buddha discovered. This is the path of freedom and peace, the path of the middle way. The middle way is the way you really are. And the way you really are is that you are free of existence and non-existence.

[31:27]

But for me, for you to even talk about me and my existence, I'm too tired to do with you today. But I feel like you've answered me differently in the past, so I ask of you. Are you tired? Yeah. Do you have the courage to talk to me a little longer? I'll try. I think. This is important. I would like to say something. Things only exist dependently. Nothing exists by itself. Depending on things other than itself. Your existence, your conventional existence, is that all that makes you up. is things that aren't you.

[32:30]

Like you're not your history. Interconnectedness. Interdependence too. You depend on things other than yourself. You are powered and created by things other than yourself. You do not make yourself. And you exist conventionally that way. But that conventional existence is actually also free of any idea you have of that existence. For example, the idea of existence. The way you actually are is free of your ideas of existence and free of your ideas of non-existence. You actually are free of those ideas. But there's still something. You can say there is something, but there's only something. You can't get a hold of the something because the something is dependent on things that aren't it. Right, there's those things too. But the same applies to them. You can't get a hold of anything. Yeah, I know, but that's different. Do you know?

[33:32]

Well, I can follow you there. Okay, good. But then when you're saying conscious construction only, to me that's something different because at media I'm also misunderstanding, but conscious construction only implies thought. Yes, it does. And so to say there's only thought... It implies a matter... It doesn't say that there is only conscious construction. It doesn't say there is only ideas. Conscious construction only doesn't say there is only conscious construction. It doesn't say that. It says everything is nothing but conscious construction. It's different to say there is nothing but conscious construction than to say everything is conscious construction. Nothing, everything is nothing but conscious construction.

[34:34]

Okay? Okay, and then, and then, the next one is, there is nothing but conscious construction. So one's talking about what is, and the other one is talking about how you understand. And the problem is how we understand. I lost you a little bit in that last distinction. I'm curious if other people are following. Actually, because I don't want to bore everyone with asking to repeat it. Let's check that, okay? Are you people bored? Okay. Can you go over the last distinction one more time that you just made? Everything is nothing. Everything that exists is nothing but conscious construction. Okay?

[35:34]

That's one statement. The other way of saying it, which I'm not saying, is that there is nothing but conscious construction. That's the difference. So what is consciousness? We can't obviously explain it with words. I mean, I understand it's circular. I mean, there's a circularity to the conversation. That question is a central question of the great vehicle. What is conscious construction? That's the question. And then somebody says, well, that's the question. And who gets to understand the answer to that question? The answer is people who develop good roots. In other words, practice the six perfections. People who listen to that teaching and study that teaching, they will understand what is conscious construction. They will actually enter that teaching and realize it. And then they will continue practicing the bodhisattva practices afterwards, but after becoming free of their conscious constructions.

[36:39]

Most people are trapped in them. They think they're true. And now you hear this teaching, and what is it? What is it? What is the great vehicle? That teaching is the central teaching of the great vehicle. So how do you understand the great vehicle? You just keep wondering, what is the great vehicle? And if you keep wondering that and keep studying it, along with your bodhisattva practices, you will enter it someday. But I'm not going to tell you what conscious construction only is. But I'll talk to you about it. And for example, I'll tell you that if you understand that existence is a conscious construction and non-existence is a conscious construction. Those are two conscious constructions. And the Buddha found a way which is free of indulging in them. We are usually addicted to... The Buddha said the world is generally inclined towards two extremes. existence and non-existence.

[37:42]

I found a way which is free of those extremes. But they're extremes only when you abide in them. The idea of existence and non-existence, those aren't extremes. But to think I exist or don't exist, that that's what I am, to grasp them turns into extremes. The middle way is not to grasp either one of those. So things exist conventionally, but things do not exist absolutely. There's no absolutely existing things. There's that kind of non-existence, but to abide in either one of them is an extreme. Yeah, I feel like I'm losing, I don't know. Part of what you need to do is to accept that you feel like you're losing. No, sorry.

[38:44]

I didn't mean I was losing, like I'm losing. I meant like I was, I do, I was losing, I wasn't listening as carefully as I was before because, I don't know, because I also feel like when I had the exchange with you the other time, there was something clarified for me and then it feels like it's, It's lost again, like, I don't, yeah. You've got to keep letting go of the clarification. Well, I actually think these things are important. I do too. Clarity is important. But you've got to let it go. It's not funny to me because people take messages from these teachings. Yeah. And so I think that when I challenged you before in class, it was like, It was important to me. It wasn't like a joke. It's because, like, how can... Because how we practice with these teachings can have an impact on how we are in the world, right?

[39:45]

Right. And so, I mean, if we look at the history of Zambia, that people have used it to justify war, for example. Right. So can you speak to that? Can you speak to how you... how and why you conduct yourself in the way that you do in terms of your... To me, it seems that you have deep intentions of kindness towards others. And so can you speak about that in the context of these teachings? I think these teachings... will help people become free of their fantasies which they believe are realities. The time was given to you and I appreciate your sincere inquiry

[40:53]

But I also would like to just remind you that Jiao Jiao does not abide in clarity. Okay, but you know what, I might not agree with whoever down there or whatever. I, I, clarity is... Yeah, he, okay, and he also doesn't abide in picking and choosing. He doesn't abide in either, right? So if you're doing picking and choosing, that's fine. If you have clarity, that's fine. They're both fine. The bodhisattva doesn't abide in either one. But you're welcome to have opinions. And you're welcome to not have opinions. Exactly. Exactly. Right. And you're welcome to do that. And you're even welcome to abide in them. But the reason why I'm giving this teaching is to help us become free of abiding in our opinions. Right.

[41:59]

That's... And I'm giving, I think, my future because I don't think that's always the best idea. Sometimes I think it's really important to have a thing in... Always the best idea is abiding. Okay, so we have a difference. So you, do you think that there's something that's always the best idea that you're going to abide in? No, but I think that sometimes... People do things that make a really important difference in the world, and what they do is based on an opinion. I have deep gratitude to people who have done things based on an opinion. Even to you, for example, because you have opinions, and sometimes because of the opinions that you have, you've been able to help me, because we have a certain opinion about how to look at life, and it helps me if I have gratitude to you, and then I have gratitude to other people.

[43:01]

Whatever. So that's how I see it. Maybe we disagree. I don't know. Maybe we disagree. But could I say one more thing? I just heard you say that you thought that based on my opinions I was somewhat helpful to you. And I think we can help people even though we're helping people from abiding in our opinions. I agree. I'm just saying I think the most helpful way we can help people is to not abide in our opinions. That's what I'm saying. It is. And so I do not wish to abide in that one either. Okay. Yeah, thank you. Yes. I have a cultural question. I used to think that the U.S.

[44:02]

had a certain underbelly of anchored for the poor or for the weak. And then I traveled and I felt like other places had this too. And so, why do humans have anger for the poor and the weak? Well, one thing that comes to my mind is we're afraid of being small. Like I said before, we're afraid of being small. So when we see people who are small or weak, that maybe gets us in touch with our feeling of being small and weak. And if we're afraid of it, and they remind us of it, Maybe we want to look away from them because they remind us it's not that we are small and weak, it's just that we sometimes feel that way and we're often afraid of it. Sometimes we see beings who are small and weak and it doesn't make us aware that we're afraid of being small and weak. Like You know, like sometimes you see a little baby and they look small and weak, but you don't feel afraid of yourself being small and weak because maybe you feel big and strong and helpful.

[45:10]

But if I see a little baby who seems small and weak and I feel small and weak and I'm afraid of feeling small and weak and I'm kind to that, then I won't hate the little baby. Then I won't look down on the little baby because I realize I'm a little baby too. And I'm somewhat afraid of being a little baby, but I know how to take care of being afraid of being a little baby. So then I can take care of the little baby and show the little baby how to be not afraid of being a little baby. By showing them it's okay with me if they're afraid of being a little baby. You can keep being afraid of being a little baby until you're ready to be kind to being afraid of being a little baby. But if we're afraid of being little and weak and we aren't kind to that fear, then when we see it other places, we might not be kind to the fear that other beings who are little and weak and afraid, we might not be able to be kind to them either.

[46:20]

For example, try to turn away from them or Talk them out of feeling small and talk them out of feeling afraid. You're not afraid. You're not small. You're a big boy. You're not afraid. Oh, I hear that you're afraid and I'm afraid too. But I'm going to be here with me being afraid and you being afraid. So that practice could... I would like that practice to spread all over this land. Because everybody can feel small and weak. People in America can feel small and weak. There's no way to eliminate that thought in beings. And people can feel afraid. That's okay. We have a way to practice with that. Okay? Yes.

[47:22]

That's one characteristic of the world. It dominates, yeah. It dominates because that's the one we know and we like to know. It could give us a sense of control and power over the mystery. Yeah, it could. But oftentimes we feel like there's not enough control here. We need more. Things are a little bit out of control. We've got to get a little bit more control here because I'm a little scared that I'm going to lose control. The more control, the more fear, the more fear, the more attempts to control. Not always, but it's dominant. It goes with trying to dominate that world of appearances. And that's the world. We actually are living in something that's not really an enclosed world.

[48:32]

And that allows us to fantasize appearances. So I wonder why there's one here being powerless. Well, one story, this is a story, this is an opinion, one story is that we imagine that something's other and separate from us and we're afraid of what it'll do to us. We're afraid it's not supporting us. We imagine it's not supporting us, it's not assisting us, and we're not supporting and assisting it mutually. We imagine that because that world can be imagined. the way we're actually supporting each other is unimaginable.

[49:36]

So we make an imaginable world, which is hard to hold that together by imagination. So we have a world where we're not sure everybody's our friend. And so we're afraid of the big world that we're not sure is supporting us. That's one story about the origins of fear of not being in control. But there's other stories we could tell Actually, the origins of how we're afraid is inconceivable. But we do know we're afraid, so we do know what to be kind to. Got something to be kind to. Got something to be patient with. Got something to be careful of. Got something to be generous towards. Got something to calm down with. Yes? Could you speak up?

[50:38]

Yes, you spoke earlier in your discussion with Arisa about people realizing after some study and time or whatever about conscious construction, realizing it and understanding it. And then afterwards they keep doing whatever they were doing. Do they know that they realized it? Is that something that was felt? Their knowing that they realize it is their practice that they do once released from believing their conscious constructions. That's the way they know it. If they would know it, they would understand that the way they know it is just conscious construction. And that's not knowing it. Knowing it is practicing free of the hindrances of grasping the way we know as being what we're doing. So they go ahead and practice their bodhisattva practices after they understand. But the more enhanced way of their practice is their understanding.

[51:43]

They don't have an understanding of their practice. Their practice is their understanding before they had an understanding of their practice, which they thought was their practice. Now they're free of thinking that their opinions about their practice are their practice. There are still opinions, but they thoroughly understand that those are just opinions. And their expression of understanding that is simply their practice. In other words, their realization is their practice. Before they had a realization of their practice, which is called not realization. It's called recognition. Oh, I saw somebody practicing generosity and it was me. Well, that's nice. And if you keep practicing generosity on a level of, I'm practicing generosity, you will enter into a realm where generosity is practicing you. And you're nothing in addition to generosity. That's the way you practice after you understand this teaching, is there's just a practice, not you in the practice.

[52:45]

Before you understand this, there's you in the practice and you and other people. And you believe that to some extent. So practice sometimes gets a little tiring. But afterwards, practice isn't tiring because there's not you doing it. Just wisdom is doing it, and it's doing wisdom. They're the same thing. So as we say, that which can be met with recognition is not realization itself. But you can realize You can realize, I mean you can recognize realization, but that's not the realization self. The realization self is the practice with nobody added on top of it. Thank you very much.

[53:36]

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