May I continue to talk to you about the final chapter of the scripture, Unraveling and Realizing the Deep Intimacy? We got to a place in the sutra where it says, or Manjushri, Bodhisattva says, Bhagavan, and Bhagavan might be translated as blessed one or sublime one. Bhagavan is the epithet of the Buddha. Do Tathagatas have emanation minds or not? In other words, does the Nirmanakaya Does the transformation body have mind or not? Manjushri, the minds do not exist, nor do they not exist.

[01:13]

These minds lack autonomy and are empowered by minds. The Powers translation actually says, these minds lack autonomy and are empowered by, in brackets, the Tathagata's mind. But another translation is Manjushri... The Nirmanakaya neither has mind nor has no mind. Why? Because having no mind relative to self because of having no mind relative to self because of having mind relative to others.

[02:23]

The Nirmanakaya described neither as thinking or as not thinking. This is because it does not have any independent thinking, but it does have thinking dependent on others. So we have this dharma body of the Buddha, reality body of the Buddha. And this reality body of the Buddha is unfabricated, but it has emanations.

[03:28]

And it has unbounded emanations. And these emanations, when they manifest, are called transformation bodies, nirmanakayas. The question is, do these have minds? They don't have minds because they don't have their own mind. These transformations don't have their own mind. The transformations of the true body of Buddha, as this appearance, is due to the Buddha's blessing, the Buddha's power, and it's also due to the sentient being's request. So this mind is not, it doesn't exist, they don't have their own mind, but they do have a mind that is dependent on others. Their mind arises from the interaction between beings and Buddha's Dharma body.

[04:37]

The interaction between beings and Buddha Dharma body can give rise to this transformation body. So it's not appropriate to say transformations, which are emanations, which are like magical appearances or magical apparitions, it's not appropriate to say they have minds, and it's not appropriate to say they do not. When the sutra says that they are not autonomous, it means that they arise in dependence on the seeds of the different types of living beings. not by their own nature, but by the blessed nature of the Dharmakaya in response to the particular seeds of living beings.

[05:49]

That's why they do not have their own mind. So, according to one Mahayana, treatise called the Yogacara Bhumi, both this Nirmanakaya and another body which we talk about, the Sambhogakaya, the bliss body, which is a later development of the Yogacara school, which is based on this sutra, both the Sambhogakaya and the Nirmanakaya do not manifest in a way that have real and real mental factors, but they have a phenomena that appear to be minds and mental factors. In other words, a Buddha can appear to have a mind and a mental factor, or rather the appearance can look like it has a mind or a mental factor.

[07:04]

But it doesn't have a mind or a mental factor like sentient beings have mind and mental factor, because its apparent mind and mental factor come from the blessing of the Buddha and the needs of beings. And it can look like a mind, or it can look like thinking, but it's not the same species because it doesn't come from their karma, from their own conceptual thought. The emanations we call transformation body Buddhas of the Tathagata, of the Dharmakaya, are like things having minds. They look like it, but the minds controlling them are external. And so the emanations themselves cannot be said to be real minds. They also can

[08:08]

They also are not said to be actually existent because they lack the abilities of the physical faculties and the physical faculties of emanations and the faculties in terms of phenomena that are minds and mental factors. Okay? So that's a big point. we spend the rest of the day on. So do you have any comments or can I move on? Yes? So it sounds like you're saying that sentient beings have minds and mental factors due to an incarnate consciousness. Yeah. Yeah. Well, there are two things. One is their blessed emanations of the unfabricated, unconstructed, unelaborated fruit of long practice.

[09:30]

Another way to say this, which I'll say again, is that this dharmakaya is the fruit born of bodhisattva vows. The dharmakaya is born to respond. And the fruit of that vow plus long practice gives rise to this thing, this consciousness, which is not fabricated. But that thing emanates, that thing, what do you call it? It glows, it radiates, it's radiant, and it gives off these transformations. But the transformations are coming from the Buddha and not in response to beings so that they don't, they're not from their own conceptual karmic consciousness. They're from the interaction between the unconstructed consciousness and constructed consciousnesses.

[10:33]

And they appear, they look, they will look perhaps, they look like somebody who's out of their mind as possible. But they look like they have a mind. But it's not really a mind, the way other people's minds are anyway. Yeah, so I said before, during the session I brought up the question where it says... You know, how does the Dharmakaya's thinking arise? Wasn't that one of the questions I brought up there? Let's see. Bhagavan, how should we know the characteristics of the Tathagata's mental factors?

[11:36]

The Tathagata's mental fact, we should know them as, you know, magical creations. He says that the Tathagatas are not distinguished by mind consciousness, no, by mind thinking and consciousness. thought and consciousness, that doesn't distinguish the consciousness of the tathagata. The consciousness of the tathagata is not like that. Those are constructed. The alaya-vijnana, the manas, and the sense-vijnanas, those are fabricated. It's not like one of those. It's a different kind of consciousness, which we call the dharmakaya, or emptiness. That's the kind of consciousness it is. But it's a consciousness that is born of bodhisattva vows and practices. And... Yeah.

[12:42]

Yes? In other Yogacara... In other Yogacara what? Teaching. Yes. This, by the way, what I'm talking about here isn't really Yogacara teaching. This Yogacara is based on this teaching. This scripture, sutras are not, you know, are the basis of the schools, but this is not a Yogacara text. It's only a text that the Yogacara depends on. Yes, go ahead. So yeah, there's two kinds of transformation. There's two kinds of transformation. Transformation is the way that mind is transformed into these three transformations.

[13:47]

So mind, thought, and consciousness are called the three transformations. And those three transformations, which are actually eight, all those three are transformed then into different kinds. So according to the Yogacara, These three, the third of which is six, make eight. So the first, if you transform the first one, it gets transformed into great mirror-like wisdom. If you transform the second one, it gets transformed into sameness. If you transform the third one, it turns into the wisdom of discernment and all-accomplishing wisdom. So there's four that these eight get transformed in. So these eight are really in three categories. They are transformations, and these transformations, mind, consciousness, and intellect, are what fabricate self and phenomena.

[14:50]

So whatever kind of phenomenon of self and other or self in the world there is are said to arise from these three. So the world of fabricators and these three are fabricated and fabricators. So by the bodhisattva vow and practicing with these three, these three are transformed into wisdom which gives them rise to this dharmakaya. But the dharmakaya then doesn't just stop there. It has this radiance when it goes out, in response to beings, creates these transformation bodies. In this text, just the transformation body, but there's another transformation body that's called, in a sense, it's a transformation body, but it doesn't appear. It doesn't appear in form. The nirmanakaya appears in forms, in appearances. The sambhogakaya doesn't really appear It's more the blissful experience of understanding the relationship between the transformations and their source.

[15:59]

Yes. Yes. Yes. I don't know. But the point is, they do not not exist. But I don't know if in English you need the other not or not. Okay, you can put it in then. I kind of think that as these minds lack the painful... They do. They do, yeah. The Nirmanakaya is not suffering. He doesn't have a mind, a suffering mind. And by the way, again, in that translation, he put the Tathagata in brackets.

[17:11]

Yeah, I think it's better not to have the, say, Tathagata, but because they're not just in, the mnemonica is not just in, it's, you know, I think they're trying to say that it's mostly due to the power of the Tathagata, but it also depends on the request of sentient beings. So I think it's better to leave it out. But, you know, so the Tathagata's wish to benefit beings is really, in some sense, the most important in the situation. But the Tathagata can't do it unless somebody requests it. And that's why... So this... this point is going to be brought up more, but I'll just tell you that most of your questions are probably going to be coming up later. But anyway, go ahead. Yes? The question is, is the request a vow? Is the request a vow?

[18:18]

Yeah. If you make a vow, that's a request. But you can make other requests like help. Get me out of here. Well, you know, vow is kind of like a prayer. The Japanese, the Chinese word for like negawakua, often translated as, you know, a prayer. May it be so, we pray that. But also, the character there is also used in the word vow. So vow is not only I pray, but I commit, I promise. I wish. I beseech, I pray, but also I vow. So vowing or praying are part of the response. But as it says in a page or two, I'll read, or not even a page, in a paragraph it says that this body arises because sentient beings intensely observe the Tathagata.

[19:28]

But I think actually observe is okay, but I think maybe better is intensely contemplate. The beings walking around thinking about the tathagata creates transformation bodies. You can contemplate a tathagata that you can't see, and then your contemplation or your observation of the tathagata that you can't see is part of the conditions for the appearance of something you can see. Right. Sitting Zazen can be seen as a request. You're sitting there and you're requesting that Buddha be manifested in this world. You're sitting and saying, could we have some enlightenment in this world? You could say, can I be enlightened? But it could also be, could there be enlightenment in this room, please? I'm sitting here. Is this like a message to wherever it might be coming from? Or another way is, can this sitting please be a gesture towards manifesting compassion in this room, in this world?

[20:33]

Yes. Yes. If you want to do that, would you come up here? I'm fine. Pardon me for being late. Last night I was in the kitchen blathering something that was a nice thing and I felt badly about it and I thought, I hate that. I don't want to be this person that does that. And this person I've constructed over the years, my karma. So then I thought, well, who is it I want to be? But I don't know who I am.

[21:39]

How do I know who I want to be? And so it's all kind of a pointless struggle since my mind is constructed from karma and so is my ideal of who I'd rather be. So is that part of the struggle of Yourself is more of an illusion, and whoever I would want to be is an illusion. So I'm kind of stuck with not nothing to be, but realizing that my effort to be somebody else is futile. When one realizes that their effort to be somebody else is futile, that is the response. to the inarticulate request that you expressed, or other inarticulate requests. Like you could request, you could say, would the Buddha please help me realize that it's futile to be somebody else?

[22:47]

And then suddenly, oh, I get it, it's futile to be somebody else. You could have asked for that, but you got it even though you didn't clearly ask for it. Right, because how would I know? Well, you could say that. I think... Yeah, you can now ask for that. But the thing is, you were kind of like saying, well, I kind of like want to know who I... You were kind of saying, well, I'd like... Who do I want to be? But I can't really get into that because I don't know who I am. I don't agree with that, but I'll let you go on. But you can... around there and I didn't really agree with you. Still, in your story, the Buddha's heard you and he said, well, she's not very clear about her potential here, but I'm just going to send her a gift. And so the gift is I'm going to help her realize that she can't be anybody but Pat at this moment. Right. What didn't you agree with? I didn't agree with, I didn't agree with, I didn't agree with that you can't come up with what you want to be

[23:50]

if you don't know who you are. Really? Really, yeah, really. If you have that price of admission, nobody can even know what they want to be. Absolutely. Well, you'd take away that price of admission. You can want to be a bodhisattva even though you don't know who you are. Or exactly what a bodhisattva is. Or what a bodhisattva... Yeah, well, even better. I want to be like, you know, Shakyamuni Buddha. I want to be like... I want to be like that. That's what I came to Zen for. I said, I saw these people and I said, I want to be like that. I didn't know who I was, but I knew what I wanted to be like. That was a fabrication in a sense, wasn't it? Yeah, it was, but there was other fabrications too, like who I don't want to be. So, I think we all know about the ones we don't want to be, which are fabrications. I don't want to be that fabrication. I don't want to be that fabrication. What about the one you do want to be?

[24:51]

You need the one... This is kind of important. You need the fabrication of what you... in order to get over fabrications. Now, you can get hung up on that fabrication too, but you need that type of fabrication. Like, I would like to be somebody who's totally committed to the welfare of all beings. That's a fabrication. I don't know what that is, but that's the fabrication I'm going for. That fabrication is necessary in order to become free of all fabrication. If you have a fabrication, I would like to be a person who's totally devoted to his own welfare. That fabrication will not set you free from fabrication. That's what most people, they have that one. And if some people have that one, it's not anymore. But I still would like, you know, to be happy. I want me to be happy. And I don't want to be me. So anyway, the Buddhas hear you and they tell you it's futile to try to be somebody else.

[25:53]

That was the response that you got. You were lucky. I shouldn't say lucky, you were very fortunate. They answered, they gave you this nice gift, but they gave it to you in response to you going, I don't want to be me. They heard you and they said, it's futile to try to be somebody other than you. That's a mnemonicaia. that it's futile to be somebody other than you is nirmanakaya. It seems like a mind. It seems like an idea. It seems like a concept. That's a message from Buddha. But the thing about I can't come up with what I want until I know it's from a demon. It's making you stay in there. Huh? It's making you stay. Yeah, I have to stay here until I'm enlightened. I can't even find out about whether I want to be enlightened until I'm enlightened. That's a demon. So you have no right to be in a monastery until you're enlightened.

[26:56]

Get out of here. Okay. But you have to stay, you know. I can want to be a great benefit to beings even though I don't know what that is and even though I don't know who I am, I do want that. At least right now I do. So I encourage you to ask what do you really want to be And just keep asking that and answers will come eventually. And then you can work on that. And then you can work on that. And then we'll see how that helps you find out who you are. Stages. Yeah, there's some stages. Yeah, right. Like the Buddha went... We say, that's one of the things the sutra says, the Nirmanakaya manifests in the world in stages. Zen students a lot of times don't like stages, but the way that the Nirmanakaya appears is like stages. First he's in his mother's womb, then he comes out, then he goes to preach.

[28:00]

Then he, you know, gets trained as an archer and a horseback rider and has a harem, he has lots of pleasures. Then he leaves home, then he becomes an ascetic, then he gives up asceticism and he attains the way, then he turns the Dharma wheel. It's like that. So, you're going to go through something like that. ...stages on... You're going to go through that. Plus also, if you want to know how you're going to develop, you look at others. It's going to be kind of something like that. You're going to go through something like that. But that's all fabricated. But it's a fabrication emanating from the unfabricated. It's emanating from the unfabricated to the unelaborated, the unconstructed. But people can't see that, so... You get fabrications like, it's futile to try to be somebody other than you. That's a fabrication too, but that's from the Buddha, from the Zen teachers.

[29:02]

They're telling you that. And probably you already heard that, but in your upset, it came back to you. Huh? Or I didn't believe it. You know, I didn't believe the teaching in that way. Yeah, but now you realize... Great. Yeah. That was a good example. Thank you. And please keep asking yourself, what do you really want to be? What do you really want to be in this life, in the rest of your life? What do you want to be? What instead of who? Or who do you want... Or who, yeah. Who or what? I can handle both of those. Who, by the way, for a world-honored one... Yes, please come. You have to go now? Okay, bye-bye. Thanks for coming, though. I had this dream that I was going to discuss the rest of the chapter with you today, but it's wonderful how slowly we go, because we can make a whole year out of this next page or two.

[30:37]

Where are we here? Okay, the next question that Manjushri asks is, Bhagavan, What are the characteristics of the manifest completion of the tathagata, the turning of the wheel of Dharma and their great parinirvana? So what are the characteristics of the manifest tathagata, not the dharmakaya? One of the characteristics, the manifest complete enlightenment of the tathagata. What's that like? What's their turning of the wheel like? And what is their great parinirvana? And Manjushri, the Bhagavan says, they are of a non-dual character. The character of the Complete Enlightenment, the turning of the wheel, and the Great Pioneer of Ononday are a non-dual character.

[31:53]

These manifestations are neither manifestly enlightened, nor are they not. manifestly and completely enlightened. They neither turn the wheel of Dharma nor do they not turn the wheel of Dharma. They neither have a great parinirvana nor do they lack a great parinirvana. This is the Dharma body The Dharmakaya is very pure. And the Nirmanakaya are fully realized. Or the Nirmanakaya are constantly manifested. So what are the characteristics of the Buddha's manifest, complete, perfect enlightenment?

[33:07]

From the Dharmakaya side, it's that they're not completely and perfectly enlightened because Dharmakaya is so pure. But because the Nirmanakaya is always manifest, they are completely and perfectly enlightened. They do not turn the Dharma wheel because the Dharmakaya is so pure. they do turn the Dharma wheel because the Nirmanakaya is constantly manifesting. They don't enter parinirvana because the... so pure. They do enter the parinirvana, great parinirvana, because the transformation body is constantly appearing. So they're constantly entering nirvana, being enlightened, and turning the Dharma wheel all the time. dharmakaya so pure, they're not doing any of that. This is the non-dual character of their enlightenment, their teaching, and their higher nirvana.

[34:11]

And this is a sutra, but in the Theravada, in the Pali texts, As the Buddha, as the historical Buddha, as the historical Nirmanakaya is about to die, he says, those that I enter perfect nirvana are not my disciples. Those who say I do not enter complete nirvana, parinirvana, are not my disciples either. The historical Buddha says, in the Mahayana Sutra, the Bhagavan is saying the same thing. So in that sense, Shakyamuni Buddha did say there is a true body of Buddha, and if you say that, of course, that does not enter into parinirvana.

[35:15]

But there's a transformation body, and that does. So either one of them, stay in the middle. Those are my disciples. He didn't say that. I'm saying that. be in the middle between those two, that's where the Buddha is. That's the non-dual character of Buddha's enlightenment, Buddha's teaching, and Buddha's perfect peace and freedom. Now that was an easy one, right? Yes? What? The Dharmakaya is very, very pure. It's as pure as a Buddha can get. They're like committed to some limitations.

[36:24]

It seems to me very similar to the Catholicism's idea that we're all born in sin. I'm just wondering if that's true, how it is with this tendency. You say if that's true, that's similar? Yeah. Well, I don't know if we'll be able to find out if that's true, if it's similar. But anyway, if it's true, if it's... Yes? Is it true or not? The thing that came into my head then was when that bell rang, was that... How is it that... Would you please come up here, even though you're having trouble with your legs?

[37:36]

I'm very quick. Questions, please come up. I'm sorry I didn't remind you. Please come up here. There's many virtues of coming up here. One of them is that your question gets recorded. Another one is... You come closer to where you want to be. Hi. Hi. Can I say something more? Yeah. Okay, go ahead. So given those two things, why do you think it is that we hear more about a mistreatment of children by Catholics than we do... I mean, what is it that's separate? What is it that's... How is it that happens? Do you know what I mean? I mean, if those two things are the same, if they're both saying, you know, they're actually sentient beings... I got the answer.

[38:41]

I mean, I got the question. Okay. I would say sociologically, the reason why we hear more about that is because you're talking about the abuse of clerics, of priests, towards children, right? Yeah. We're not talking about the Catholic... abusive than Buddhist parents. No. You're talking about Catholic priests having an abusive relationship with their children who are their flock. Yeah. That and, if I could just jump in, that and, you know, the apostolic... The Christian missionaries have sort of managed to abuse all of the peoples they've ever met. Oh, so there's that too. Let's talk about the first one, okay? The first one, I'd say the main sociological reason is that Buddhist priests do not spend a lot of time teaching school to Buddhist children. And they don't spend a lot of time having lots of children around them a lot.

[39:46]

But Catholic priests, you know, the Catholic priests in America and Europe spend a lot of time with children in their church. Mm-hmm. So I think that's one of the reasons. Mm-hmm. Buddhist priests could make mistakes too. Mm-hmm. If you have unenlightened Buddhist priests and you put them with lovely people, they can get in trouble just like an unenlightened Catholic priest. Mm-hmm. But Buddhist priests don't spend time with kids, you know, from priests do. And also, I would also say another sociological thing is I do not think there was as much abuse in the Catholic Church when the Catholic priests were living in community with other Catholic priests. I don't think it was just suppression in the early part of the 20th century. of the deeds, I think there was less in the early part of the 20th century in the Catholic Church than when the Catholic Church changed and the priests stopped living in community where other priests were closely watching them.

[40:56]

I disagree. Well, go ahead. Tell me about how that's not true. Because there's definitely recorded incidents of abuse of children and novice nuns in convents. Earlier, you mean? Yeah. Yeah, I know, but not as much. No, because the people who are writing the history were the people who come... Anyway, so I disagree with you. So that's my understanding of why you see a lot of that is because you have unsupervised... unenlightened people being with very tempting I shouldn't say tempting creatures being with very beautiful young people who they become attracted to and develop unwholesome thoughts towards and you know if Buddhists were in the same situation and they weren't enlightened and weren't supervised they would do the same thing if you're not enlightened and you're with very attractive things

[42:04]

and you don't have teachers or cohorts who are watching you and who you're watching, you will slip into abuse. That happens. And it would happen to Buddhists if they were unsupervised with lots of opportunities. But if you're living someplace where there's no opportunities and you're supervised, not much happens, even if you're completely unenlightened. So that's an inherent danger of Buddhism coming to the West and priests and monks going into community. There's an inherent danger then. Going out in community without a sangha around them of trained people? Right. Right. That would be dangerous. So when people leave Zen Center, I warn them, you know, and I want them to be fairly well trained at Zen Center. to realize the danger and become someone by themselves in a community, it's really a dangerous situation.

[43:06]

And that's why we could spend a lot of time on this one. Thank you. You're welcome. Please come. Could you wait one second, please? Could people stand and have some doors open or windows open? Maybe not on that side because you can't, it makes noise, but on this side, not so noisy. Yes. Would you wait? People are kind of removed. No, please. Thank you. Okay, they're back.

[44:15]

Okay, we're back. So, as I understand it, we, in the process of... Speak louder. As I understand it, we cultivate... It's okay, I would kind of prefer not to... Louder. Okay. We practice to cultivate skillful means and wisdom, and that intention and that effort is what creates the manifestation of wisdom bodies in the world. There's a step before that. Okay, what's the step? The step is, I thought you were saying we practice skillful means and wisdom, and that produces the Dharmakaya. That's not what I was saying. I know. Okay. But I thought that's where you're going. No, I'm saying that.

[45:17]

But that doesn't mean to contradict you. You can... ...skillful means and wisdom, and the dharmakaya, which is the result, which is the fruit, complete fruit of that same practice, will respond to you as transformations. As nirmanakaya. Mm-hmm. Okay. So, but that... There's... So when I think about that in the context of everyday practice, then I think, well, as I've been taught, there's no amount of adjusting our psychology or adjusting our conditioned life results in awakening. Because that's what can be grasped. Mm-hmm. And there is what cannot be grasped. Yes. And so my question is, what is it that creates that transformation? How is it that this individual practitioner, developing skillful means and wisdom, makes the transformation to the Buddha body?

[46:25]

Is it because of the manifestation? Is it because of the wisdom body appearing in the world? Or is there something else that enables that transformation? See if I can focus it into... There's a certain request that comes from a sentient being that the dharmakaya responds to in such a way that the sentient being can see something. What they might see is the idea of being a bodhisattva. Or what they might see is an actual bodhisattva, a physical person, a being that they identify as a bodhisattva. Or they might identify as a bodhisattva, right? Okay. Which is the same as there seems to be a bodhisattva there to them.

[47:27]

Yeah. And they maybe wish to be like that person. It might. That wishing is like part of their psychology. It's a psychological response. I would like to be like that. So that thought then is sometimes called, and I would like to be like them. In other words, I would like to be like them, and being like them means I would like to, like them, wish to attain perfect Buddhahood for the welfare of all beings. So now I, in my wanting to be like them here, I wish to do that. So now I have this thought which is called bodhicitta. Then I may hear, I may see something else, another appearance which says, now that bodhicitta has arisen, please take care of it. Because if you don't take care of it, you'll lose it. Everything that appears to you like a sutra or a dharma talk comes to you and says, take care of this wonderful intention. And how do you take care of it?

[48:28]

Well, practice these perfections. And you think, I would like to. And then you start thinking about the perfections. This is a psychological thing and you're doing these practices. Yep. And as you do these practices, they come to fruit as this non-psychological thing, which isn't the transformation of your psychology into that. Mm-hmm. They come to... So how is... Are you saying that's a natural law of the universe, that they come to fruit as some catalyst? Well, the catalyst is... It's not exactly a catalyst because... You know what I'm saying? There's some transformation that has to happen between the striving, between the... Striving. The individual who says, I want this, or the desire to awaken. Well, one transformation of that desire to awaken or one... you know, one, the six-day transformation is that they do the practices.

[49:30]

The practices themselves are not concentrating on the result. When you practice these, in the sutra earlier, chapter eight says, aren't devoted to the results of the paramitas, they don't seem to be devoted to the results the way they're devoted to the practices. And the Buddha says, right, they're not. They're not into the results, they're into the practices. They love the practices, not the result. They love the practices, not the nirvana. So the mind gets transformed by doing the practices just for themselves. This is another response of the Dharmakaya. Yes, right. You're welcome. Thank you. It's more like wishing, wishing, wishing, and then the wish is fuel for these practices, because these practices take care of the wish. The wish to realize Buddhahood in the world for everyone's welfare, it's a mental phenomena, and you can lose it.

[50:41]

Dogen says, among the things that are easily lost, there's three things that are most easily lost. One is fish eggs. I should say, among things which once born often die, there's three things, fish eggs, a certain kind of special fruit, which is like, you know, just the most delicious fruit, and the bodhicitta. So the bodhicitta, once born, very easily lost. Just a slight piece of spit in your face and you can forget it. So it needs to be taken care of after it's born. And the way you take care of it is these practices. And the fruit of these practices is this thing. The practices are kind of constructed. They're kind of like, in a sense, the way they come to us is the Nirmanakaya. The people who give it to us, the books that give it to us, the Shoah, those are like the Nemanakaya. And that, anyway, that,

[51:44]

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